Navigate Podcast
Welcome to Navigate, we are two long term friends doing life and ministry together. I got tired of the same ole answers when I started looking for help when it came to my walk with God. So together we go deeper than most would on topics that most people have heard or were taught but never fully understood. It is our way of simplifying concepts that we may have over complicated throughout our lives. Bringing theology and life experience into each episode. It is our hope and desire to help Navigate your Christian walk with you
Navigate Podcast
Adultery: Commandment #7
Join us as we confront the intricate and often controversial topic of adultery through the lens of biblical teachings. Our guest, Nick, returns to shed light on this age-old issue, emphasizing its relevance both in ancient times and today's society. We dissect Commandment 7 and explore the nuanced debates of Pharisee groups Hallel and Shammai regarding "indecency" in Deuteronomy 24, offering insights into how these historical perspectives can shape our modern understanding of marriage and divorce.
Hey guys, welcome back to Navigate. Justin is here.
Speaker 2:I am here.
Speaker 1:And we have Nick with us again.
Speaker 2:What's up? What's up? Nick, the man, the myth, the legend, the pastor.
Speaker 1:Thanks for coming back to talk about this with us, buddy. Yeah, man, looking forward to it. We took a break because of the holidays and then we recorded this episode and we had some technical faults. Now we're redoing it for the second time, which is always a good time.
Speaker 2:So if you don't, like this episode it's only a tribute to the original episode.
Speaker 1:You'll never know how good that episode was it was the greatest episode that we ever recorded. But you're never going to know that it doesn't get better than the episode on adultery. So yeah, Commandment 7. Jeez.
Speaker 2:Well, we've been getting some work done, man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're almost done. That's weird.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm proud of us today, okay.
Speaker 1:Thank you, I need to hear that.
Speaker 2:So I know everybody's been waiting with bated breath to talk about this fun topic, Talk about adultery. This is like a nightmare topic, though, in our world today, because inside the church and outside of the church, I feel like this has become something just insane. This has become something just insane. Ironically, I think it was also a huge topic of contention and problem in Jesus' day as well, and even before that. You know one of the some of the best stories in the Bible. One of them in particular is I'm trying to think of the one in Judges Tim, where the guy is sleeping with somebody, somebody he's not supposed to and the guy goes into his tent and just spears both of them through.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what's the name I can't remember, but listen, things got epic, all right, it was, it was wild out there, but yeah, so this, this topic, uh, tim, I'm curious like how you want to kick it off you know that's.
Speaker 1:This has probably been difficult, I think, for both of us on this topic, because we have discussed pieces of this over the years on this podcast, yeah, so not trying to rehash everything back seems a little difficult.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Well, I guess, in the biblical sense of when God gave this commandment to Moses for the people, what was he actually talking about? We'll just start there.
Speaker 2:Okay. So the let's say, the place that gets quoted the most with regard to this is what we see in Luke 16 and Matthew. Chapter five is in Deuteronomy, chapter four or 24. Sorry, deuteronomy, am I right? 24. 24.
Speaker 2:Let me pull it up real quick. I will read it to you and then maybe give you some context. It says when a man takes a wife and marries her and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her Now that word we're going to get into as a point of contention in a minute and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house, and she leaves his house and goes and becomes another man's wife. And if later the husband turns against her and writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of the house, or if the latter husband dies, who took her to be his wife, then her former husband, who sent her away, is not allowed to take her again to be his wife, since she has been defiled. For that is an Okay.
Speaker 1:So divorce is always the woman's fault, that is it, Tim, Close down the podcast.
Speaker 2:Remember this was just a tribute.
Speaker 2:That is the text that is kind of the argument point that we see in Matthew 5 and in Luke 16, when the Pharisees come up and ask Jesus about divorce. Okay, they're trying to trap Jesus by putting him in the middle of a contention that exists in that day and age between these two groups of Pharisees called the Hallel and the Shammai, and the Shammai have this, let's say, more rigid, solid interpretation of this verse, which is that indecency he's finding in her is adultery she's sleeping around. He's finding in her is adultery she's sleeping around. This is why the commandment's about putting somebody to death If you find them in adultery doing these things. He's saying that kind of indecency is what this passage is referring to, given the context of the rest of Deuteronomic law. And then you have this group from Berkeley called the Hillel group you know what I mean from Berkeley, called the Halal group. You know what I mean. And and their idea is indecency could be anything. Maybe you didn't like how she made your steak and eggs that morning, which they probably wouldn't eat together, you know. Anyway, I'm sorry, I'm going out of my mind and their idea was basically no, you can divorce a girl for anything, anything that you want to consider indecency, and these two groups were kind of in a war about what this text was talking about.
Speaker 2:And I would like to take a step back and say, when we read the Old Testament law, what we're reading is case law. This is not prescribing to people what they should be doing. This is not prescribing to people what they should be doing. This is explaining what's happening in circumstances and some things they need to know about how not to handle circumstances that are going to come up. The Bible here is not prescribing divorce.
Speaker 2:The Bible here is saying when these things happen, here's what I want you to do, kind of like the Bible is not prescribing murder, but it is giving scenarios in scripture where murder happens and some things to do and not to do in the event that those things take place. It's like the Bible, especially the law, is telling you, as things happen in your society here's how I want you to navigate it. Not because it's happening in society, we're telling you that's happen in your society. Here's how I want you to navigate it. Not because it's happening in society, we're telling you that's a good thing, or it should happen, or this is a normal thing that you should just allow to go on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Just accept it.
Speaker 2:Yes. So they're trying to give you principles, and let's say general principles, that you were to derive from these stories that it's telling about things that are going to come up, so that you would navigate them well and walk through them in a way that makes sense given certain circumstances. But like all men and women, mankind, we want to get into the details and say, yeah, but what can I get away with? Right? So they find a word and they're like well, let's just, let's talk about that for a minute, because she burnt my eggs last night. You know what I mean. Or or whatever it might be, or in our day and age. Let's just be honest with you.
Speaker 3:I just don't feel like he listens to me, you know whatever that, whatever that might be between man or woman.
Speaker 2:But but I would say, ultimately, the Bible is not prescribing divorce. It's never recommending divorce. It's never telling people is not prescribing divorce. It's never recommending divorce. It's never telling people divorce is a good idea. It's never telling people divorce is something that would be okay. It's saying there are some times where that is going to be a reality and going to happen.
Speaker 2:And that's what takes us to that passage in Matthew 5 and Luke 16 where Jesus is talking about what things look like or what was the purpose from the beginning in general, and his point was hey, you know and this is where we get into the conversation about adultery it seems like Jesus was aligning himself with the Shammai school and saying no, adultery is the only reason that you would be able to divorce somebody, which is, if somebody has functionally left you and has created covenant with somebody else, it's the same as that person basically being dead. And, nick, I'd love for you to jump in, tell me your thoughts on this, because we've been talking back and forth and I'm curious to see. Would you say that adultery is grounds for divorce or would you say it may be grounds but it's not a reason?
Speaker 3:That's where I would land. I think Jesus always reaffirmed everything he did. He always referred back to the beginning.
Speaker 1:It was said in the beginning.
Speaker 3:So he always referred to God's perfect design, and I feel like in today's age, it's like oh no, I got you, I caught you looking at porn. Now you're out of here. Or I had an emotional film. I don't want to have commitment, let me get out of here. I feel like it's a cop-out instead of a commitment.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, there are some issues here, all right, okay, so I'll just tell you I was listening to this Jewish guy. So I'll just tell you, I was listening to this Jewish guy. I'm trying to think of Dennis.
Speaker 2:Prager big name, okay, big name. He was saying men don't commit adultery with their heads, they commit adultery with the other part of their body. And I said there's a sense in which he is entirely correct and there is a sense in which he is entirely wrong. Yeah, this I mean, if you, the point that he was making is that watching pornography is not bad. He said it's not sin because it's not actually adultery. And I would say there's a sense in which he's right. That person is not committing that kind of, let's say, full-fledged I'm sleeping with another woman adultery.
Speaker 2:However, it is absolutely evidence of a corrupt heart that is walking down a road that you should not walk, mingling with things that you should not mingle, I would even say interacting and let's say sexually interacting with demons in a way that is not great. By that I mean it's freaking horrible, okay, but there is a difference between, let's say, pornography and adultery, and sometimes we want to put those things in the same category. All of us would agree there is a difference between being angry at somebody and murdering somebody. But Jesus says to be angry with a brother is to murder them, and I'm like so do you want me to tell everyone?
Speaker 2:They're guilty of murder as well. Are you guilty of murder because you were angry at your wife or husband for watching pornography? Are you now a murderer too? Is that what you mean? I don't think that's what you mean. There is a difference between, by the way, crime and sin. Sure, and in this scenario, there's a difference between, let's say, adultery and, let let's say, lust of the heart. Yeah, right, and the Bible condemns both. Okay, but but I do think it's worth noting. Some people today want to say if somebody is watching pornography, it's the same as adultery, and I would say, nope, that's a cop out. People like to talk about emotional affairs, emotional adultery.
Speaker 1:And I would say what is?
Speaker 2:that you start to allow your heart to fall in love with somebody or catch feelings for somebody, and nothing has happened, nothing has gone anywhere with it, but you allowed yourself to go farther than you would like to with your own heart with somebody.
Speaker 3:It's like Jack and Rose at the Titanic at the door scene, isn't that?
Speaker 1:called dating Jack and Rose at the.
Speaker 3:Titanic scene door scene. Isn't that called dating Jack and Rose at the Titanic scene? That's what an emotional adultery looks like. There you go, Tim.
Speaker 2:I don't even know what he's talking about, but I'm sure it's accurate.
Speaker 1:I mean, I would just call that dating right. So what are you talking about? But in the context of marriage.
Speaker 3:Okay, so with marriage, yeah in my experience and Justin call me out if I'm In my experience women because they're more emotional. That's how God made them. They desire that more, that's more of a connection, whereas men might be more physical. There's issues at home with their husbands, so they have like a co-worker or a quote-unquote friend. I think it'd be as marquee you say he's just a friend.
Speaker 3:You have that friend but you are pouring into that friend. You're getting your emotional feel, You're getting that validation and that emotional connection with someone other than your husband From that guy you're chatting with on Instagram or Facebook. Tic-tac.
Speaker 2:Tic-tac, face back.
Speaker 3:China's going to stop that soon. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:So it's that, so you're talking like work husbands, work wives, but at an emotional at an emotional level that they're not connecting with at home.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so so you are not, um, and then we're getting into like grounds for divorce and everything else so fast and really the topic is ultimately, first and foremost, adultery, which is, hey, you are not, if you are in covenant and married, to go and sleep with someone else. You're not supposed to do that. You're supposed to sleep with your husband or your wife, if you are a man or a woman, and you're supposed to make sure that you are laying your life down for that person. Husbands are to provide and protect their families. Wives are to submit to their husbands and nurture and care for their families and raise up the young, and they're to come together and have offspring. It's supposed to be awesome.
Speaker 2:The whole story of the Bible is kind of this story of this relationship with God, framed in the categories of marriage. It culminates in God restoring his bride to himself and at the end of all things, there's the wedding feast of the lamb, as the bridegroom and the bride are brought together at the end of all things. So the whole picture of the Bible is marriage. It's supposed to be seen as something that is holy and good and beautiful and ultimately this picture of adultery has everything to do with our own relationship with God, because God is saying the way that I view myself and my church is in the same terms of a husband and a wife, and the way that you treat your wife and the way that you treat your husband is actually a picture of how you, your relationship with me is, and I would say it's a hundred percent accurate. Um, nobody who is in a great place with God is cheating on their wife. Nobody who is in a great place with God is cheating on their husband. Yeah, nobody in a great place with God is watching a bunch of pornography or or having an emotional affair. Right, and I'm okay with calling it that because we're not calling it adultery, but I do think affair usually means adultery. I don't know, there's a lot of language here.
Speaker 2:It's worth noting here that the picture ultimately because we're framing everything in the context of the Ten Commandments is, if you love God, if you put him first, if you understand the rules of the house with your own personal relationship with God, then how that overflows to how you love your neighbor. In this case, your spouse should look the same way, and if that's out of order, then this is going to be out of order and the reason Jesus is saying, the only reason you guys are in this fight is because you're totally missing the point of what I'm getting at. People had hard hearts. He's writing laws for people with hard hearts who are doing the wrong things, and you're trying to come up with reasons to be able to do stuff that shouldn't be happening in the first place, because you guys are misinterpreting and misunderstanding what God intended for all of you when he was just giving you things to help mitigate some of the damage that's going to happen because of sinful people.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, what's interesting, too, is in Mark 10 is where the Pharisees tend to. When the Pharisees come up and they start questioning it, and what I really do like Jesus asked him is like what does Moses command you? So the word command stands out a lot, because obviously they're talking about the law, yeah, and then right after that they the verse four says they said Moses permitted, yeah, permitted. Don't miss that. After that, the verse 4 says they said Moses permitted, yeah, permitted. Don't miss that, because oftentimes when I talk to people they're like oh, the Bible gives me permission to do this. It says that I'm commanded to do it, but it doesn't. The command's always been faithfulness. Moses permitted. There's a semantical thing there that I'd like to pull on sometime. Yeah, but I think that's important. I think that's important, I think that's true.
Speaker 2:I think that's really good. I think God commands righteousness and he allows sin for a time, and then at some point he's wiping it all out and it's being destroyed. In the same way, when we think about marriage and we think about the sanctity of marriage and what that means, I think we need to think about it in different terms and frames, and we're always looking for loopholes and we're always trying to be lawyers you know what I mean. Like come up with reasons for why our particular scenario is different, or anything like that. I think it's wild. I did want to bring up briefly, Tim, a passage that I think has to do with this, that most people don't love to get into, and that's 1 Corinthians 11.
Speaker 1:Head coverings. Huh, yes, that's exactly right.
Speaker 2:I think 1 Corinthians 11 has a lot to do with this kind of situation, and then I'll explain to you a little bit about it. He starts out by saying Paul, be imitators of me, as I also am of christ. All right. So right off the bat you have this paul is under christ and imitating christ. And then here's what he says I want you to understand christ is the head of every man, man is the head of every woman and god is the head of every woman and God is the head of Christ. Okay, so that passage right there, by the way, pisses everybody off, because the whole thing is a hierarchy. He's saying God, christ, right, or God the Father, christ the Son, created man and then woman. That's what it's about, and everyone's like how dare you Not the God the Father, christ the Son part, but everything that came after?
Speaker 1:that right Okay.
Speaker 2:Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head. Every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved. For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off, nice. But if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off, her head shaved, let her cover her head. For a man ought not to shave his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God, but the woman is the glory of man, for man does not originate from woman, but woman from man. So I would just like to take that. Um, now, let me. Let me keep going, for indeed, man was not created for the woman's sake, but the woman for the man's sake. Therefore, the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head because of the angels.
Speaker 2:Okay, we can get into more, we can talk more in this passage, but he's basically giving a hierarchy. He's saying this is what it's supposed to look like, and if you are under the authority that you're supposed to be under, then you're not going to end up in rebellion. So the whole passage here is ultimately about submission to God's created order, then what he's getting at is the opposite of that is actually rebellion, I love to say. Today a head covering for a woman was like the equivalent of dressing modestly right. So some people would like to bring back head coverings because their belief is that a head covering is a great symbol to people in the church that as a wife I'm under the authority of my husband, I would say I don't think most people understand that that's what it means today, so it would kind of be redundant.
Speaker 1:But not having a wedding ring.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So not having a head covering in our day and age would be more like a girl dressing really slutty and going and flirting with a bunch of other guys. It's saying I'm not. I'm kind of open for business, I'm I'm I'm not really respecting my husband, I'm doing my own thing, I'm a strong independent woman.
Speaker 2:Yeah, whatever, right, it's that picture and I would even say that the idea is, men, you're not supposed to have this going on, because you're supposed to be the one who is actually connecting with God in this fashion and to be the covering for your wife, and that covering on her head represents that she is under your covering and you're protecting and taking care of her. A man to wear a head covering was like the equivalent of of him saying I'm the female, I'm the one that's under her covering, I'm. It would be like being effeminate in a sense, right?
Speaker 2:So a man who's um having his wife take care of him she makes all the calls, she does all the things, yeah it would be like that would be the equivalent.
Speaker 2:It'd be like something is wrong. What is he doing? Well, he's not stepping up, he's not being the man that he's supposed to be, he's not leading, he's not protecting, he's not providing, he's not a covering. That's rebellion to god. And then he throws in this abstract comment where he says because of the angels. Most people are like hmm, yeah, because of the angels. It's a joke in my house with me and my wife, anytime there's something weird or random that happens you know what I mean or just some abstract thing, she'll just look at me and will be like because of the angels, devil made me do this.
Speaker 2:It seems like it comes out of left field, but if you realize, this entire passage is about hierarchy, god's ordained structure and what's supposed to happen, and he's communicating submission to that structure instead of rebellion. And then he says rebellion. Well, what's the last thing that happened when men and women and, let's say, divine beings, got out of their normal structure? You have Genesis 6. You have literally the Nephilim. You have women sleeping with the sons of God, not men, but literally all kinds of weird stuff happened, god knows who and God knows what.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:Thank you too. The Lord knows what.
Speaker 3:You know what's interesting, man, and might be a rabbit hole. We get down later. But in verse six, when you talk about to a woman, it's disgrace when they shave their head. Isn't there a movement right now, now that Trump's in office, where women are rebelling against men and refusing to sleep with men but also shaving their head as an act of rebellion? It's totally demonic and spiritual and I don't think we realize that.
Speaker 2:I do think there is a real element to hair, like females and their hair and like why is it, tim, whenever a girl decides to go feminist, the first thing to go is her hair. You know, I don't know, do whatever you want with that, but it's got to be shaved on one side, or blue, or give herself a mohawk or something. But suddenly it becomes something else entirely. I don't know. It's interesting.
Speaker 3:Well, doesn't the scripture say it's to her glory.
Speaker 2:Yeah, god literally like provided a type of covering.
Speaker 2:But what I wanted to get at, tim, god literally like provided a type of covering.
Speaker 2:But what I wanted to get at, tim, is the whole idea of adultery and the Ten Commandments really stems from this idea of our love for God and our taking our place with him is happening the way that it's supposed to, then the overflow of that is something beautiful and good and God's ordained creation flourishing. What happens when we step outside of the good thing that God has given us in marriage and submission and perspective, and how we honor and cover each other, whether men stepping out and sleeping with other women and removing that covering from their spouse, or women stepping out from underneath the covering of their husband and sleeping with somebody else what you're doing is what the demons did. What you're doing is doing what Satan does, which is step outside of God's ordained picture for how things are supposed to function. And if you consider that sex is supposed to be this picture of oneness right, two people coming together and the Trinity is supposed to be this picture of oneness, two things being one or three things being one in it, sorry, in a profound mystery.
Speaker 1:It was cursed.
Speaker 2:In a profound mystery. We're like man. We don't totally understand it, but that is crazy and beautiful and wonderful. Then, every time Satan assaults sex in marriage, in this beautiful picture of what it's supposed to be, he's actually assaulting the very image of God itself.
Speaker 3:Thumbing his nose at him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so when we look at this passage in 1 Corinthians 11, I think it's just a great reminder that adultery is ultimately a demonic finger in the face of the image of God. Yes, because the one thing that is supposed to show oneness and beauty and is supposed to be a picture of the culmination of how God started and ends all things. He starts with the marriage, adam and Eve. He ends with the marriage, the bride and the bridegroom, and in this beautiful picture he's redeeming all things to himself. But what Satan loves to do is profane that thing all along the way. And what's sad is that, even starting this podcast, we get into all the details about when people are asking when it's okay to profane the identity of God through their marriage bed.
Speaker 2:When is it okay to step away and not fight for this anymore and not care about it? When is it okay to destroy this on whatever grounds? I have and it's awful, it's like you don't realize that God calls it an abomination and says he hates it because it's a personal slander to his own goodness and identity.
Speaker 1:Yep, so is adultery in a marriage the only grounds to actually divorce? Great question.
Speaker 2:Look, in my opinion, divorce is when two people are not, let's say, sleeping together, they're not living in the covenant and, let's say, structure that God has ordained Husbands loving their wives being a provision of protection, wives submitting to their husbands being a helper and a nurturer. When that stops happening, they stop coming together in oneness and living opposite of each other instead of together. What you're essentially doing is tearing your souls apart. You are functionally divorced when you start living divorced. You are officially divorced when you sign papers that say you're divorced. You are officially divorced when you sign papers that say you're divorced.
Speaker 2:My good friend Rob Kelly, we talk about this pretty frequently, but I think a lot of people are divorced way before they're divorced. A piece of paper doesn't make you married. It's you living and walking out the covenant that you made to God about how you would love, treat, be with care, for there's a lot of men who are haven't slept with their spouse spouse, I'm making air quotes for those. You can't see the. You know they can't. No, they're not doing that. They live in the basement. She lives upstairs, but they stay together for the kids. What does that mean? We're co-parenting, but I'm not married to her. That's what that means. Well, no, no, no, we're not divorced, we're just not sleeping together. Okay, no, you're divorced, you just don't have a piece of paper from the government that's saying divorce.
Speaker 2:I will say this divorce is irrevocably associated with the civil magistrate because it has to do with property and children and livelihood, which is directly associated with what the civil magistrate is supposed to oversee and help with right. So it's two people's property coming together and becoming one piece of property. Now tax brackets and all that stuff is the same Even in biblical times. Obviously it was property, it was livelihood. The government is supposed to oversee and try to help in those circumstances. Why in deuteronomic law it's saying if these things happen, here's some of the stuff that you might need to do as a civil magistrate to navigate this.
Speaker 3:Well, not a recommendation of what god is saying is supposed to happen yeah, that's what I like about deuteronomy 24, because when we're studying it is during that time frame. Women could not work. It was a cultural aspect where they could not work. So if a woman did not have a certificate of divorce, in this case there's no way to provide for her, which is the whole point of. You need this documentation in order to be remarried so that another man can take care of you and provide for you.
Speaker 3:Otherwise, her only option is prostitution and we know what the punishment for that was. It was going to be death and destruction. So the only way and I actually saw that as an act of grace if I'm fully transparent, like even in the midst of the hardest thing, god's heart for a woman right there is. I know that you can't provide for yourself. Moses allowed that I'm taking care of you because it's a way for another man to say, hey, if I do this, I don't get killed. So I actually see it as an act of grace in that aspect, when you think about the context.
Speaker 2:It was trying to mitigate the amount of damage and fallout that happened from sinful people doing stupid things. 100% it's not a prescription for what he's hoping people would do.
Speaker 3:Or here's some things that you can do, if just things go south. Right? I thought your hair was curly, you're out of here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:Can't you use that same excuse for people who are living together, having kids together, but they're not married? Yeah, I would say they are married. Yeah.
Speaker 2:In God's eyes. That's what's so funny is, if somebody is saying I'm not married, no, all they're actually saying is I refuse to actually commit to you, but I desire all the benefits for marriage, so I'm going to lie to God and everyone else about my relationship with you. That is wrong, it's fornication. And in the eyes of God, you two just came together. The word I brought this up, tim the words for love in the Hebrew you have raya, achaya and dod. Right, raya is friendship, achaya is like choosing to love somebody through difficulty or after you've seen difficulty, and then dote is the mingling of souls. It's when you come together, literally your souls are mingling. Like I have intertwined my soul with this person and you're like but it's not a big deal, I'm not nothing serious, we have children, we live together, but we're not ready for anything serious. Yet I'm saying cool, that's the behavior of an insane person and it's this belief in somebody's head that there's somebody out there better for them and they're just shorting up their bets and hoping it goes differently.
Speaker 2:In biblical times they would have stoned you, simply put Like they would have killed you. You're sleeping with this woman. You're not married to her, you're not taking her in, oh, we're going to kill you. And for her doing that with you, we're going to kill her too. Yeah, they would literally kill both. Why? Because that this is important to him. That is a threat to all of society. Okay, men and women shacking up, having children, not taking it seriously is literally a threat to all of society. You want to see? What's going on in our generation today is a bunch of men and women and the government trying to be a daddy to everyone because nobody is caring for their kids, supporting other people or creating stable homes anymore rates and why people do what they do and what happens. Look no further than the epidemic of fatherlessness that is going on in our nation today and you wonder why the Bible is like stone people that do that. Why? Because they literally will disrupt your entire society and create worst case scenarios for everybody.
Speaker 2:Nothing's worse than a fatherless son running around doing a bunch of stuff that he shouldn't be doing, and I would say the same things Nothing's worse than a fatherless daughter running around doing a bunch of stuff that he shouldn't be doing. And I would say the same thing Nothing's worse than a fatherless daughter running around and creating more fatherless sons. It's the same pattern that's happening in general. And look, a lot of people out there. You grew up. Here's where we are. This is life. This is what's happening. You came to Christ later. Man, mistakes happen, but I think it's worth noting. When we read the Bible, it's giving us principles for how things are supposed to work and trying to communicate through the law, how seriously detrimental it is and how you can wreck somebody else's life by living your life in this particular way. Good communities, good societies, defend against that so that those things don't continue and don't go on happening. And the sexual revolution has absolutely destroyed families.
Speaker 2:Destroyed families. Tim, we've talked about this, you know what I mean kind of ad nauseum the invention of birth control. Throw in transportation. We've removed a lot of responsibility and oversight from fathers. We put it into the hands of men who were not ready to be men yet and the result is the government is trying to be everyone's dad. Now Women are rebelling against all men, but they're rebelling in a way that only benefits nefarious men, and men that are actual men are seen as horrible people because they're trying to take us back to some kind of archaic time, you know, where women were protected and respected and not seen as just an object but actually something valuable, made in the image of God, under the structure of how God called them to live. So if people look at the Bible and want to talk about those archaic times, I just think they're straight blind to what's happening around us.
Speaker 3:Bring back biblical masculinity.
Speaker 2:Come on, and femininity, yeah, 100%.
Speaker 3:And femininity, 100% Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So, timmy, this topic kind of touches everything because it touches the image of God and what he's called us to do. It touches the hierarchy that God has called families, men, women, our relationship with God, how that's supposed to function. It touches offspring, it touches culture, it touches households. Kind of at the middle of everything is marriage and God is commanding us in the Ten Commandments hey, defend this, do not commit adultery, don't do it and dude.
Speaker 2:It's wild to me today how people will be like I had my husband had an emotional affair, so I'm divorcing him, my wife. You know, I saw this video yesterday. Tim was awful. It was a 10 minute video clip of a man recording himself walking out on his wife and kids like leaving. And what was hard for me was not just the video, it was the comments of all the people being like good for you, way to go.
Speaker 2:A lot, a lot of women commenting on there you know, it's better than him freaking out and killing his whole family. And I'm like right, that's a horrible way to view that. Yeah, yeah, it's like. You know, you're right, it's, it's better, is it, though? I don't know, I I like what? At what point is this sin and the destruction of their futures and the misery of them not having a father and the damage and problems of that. Like, how are you really weighing that out? Because God is saying that basically is a death. It was one flesh and now those kids, those daughters, those sons don't have a father anymore and that wife doesn't have a husband. And you're celebrating, and our culture is celebrating, as he's literally driving away saying I'm leaving for the last time. Good for you.
Speaker 3:That actually ticks me off, man. I would use a little bit stronger language. But about three years ago we were in the parking lot and it was when I was doing care and I had this couple. They were yelling at each other in the parking lot on a Sunday. I'm talking about yelling to the point where people are walking and I walked over. I'm like, oh, man, lord, it's already been a long day. And now it is Walked over and the first thing I asked was like, hey, guys, what's going on?
Speaker 3:And they were literally. The woman was distraught, she was angry and what I found out was it was the ex-husband yelling at each other. And I was like, guys, what's up? What I found out? They were trying to get back together. The guy was like, man, we're trying to reconcile, we're done. And I just looked at him. I was like man, I'm so proud of you, completely disarmed him. I said, man, I am proud of you, what a testimony to God that you were divorced and you're trying to do what Jesus says be reconciled. And that one comment.
Speaker 3:What we found out is, two years later, they got back together. That one simple comment of grace of, yeah, you're trying to do the very thing that Satan is against. You're trying to go back to God's design and his plan and Satan's going to do everything he can, no matter where you are Church parking a lot, it doesn't matter, he's going to oppose it regardless. And man, two years ago I found out they got remarried. Their kids saw that as a testimony to God's goodness and His transformative power and His grace. They see that and now they have a greater testimony now than they did when they got divorced. But yet culture would say, oh, good for you, leave them. When we would say, no, it's worth it. Fight for the good thing in God's gift to you. Fight for it because it's worth it. It's not going to be easy. It's going to be freaking hard, but it's worth it.
Speaker 2:And that's the story of the Bible. Is God fighting for somebody who is not worth it, is not great, is not put together, continues to do the wrong things, continues to go the opposite direction? The Bible would say continues to do the wrong things, continues to go the opposite direction? The Bible would say continues to be an adulterous bride that doesn't care and he continues to chase after love on, care for and eventually marry that unfaithful spouse who is a pain in the butt. So even things like adultery you would look at and you would say is it grounds for divorce? I would say, in a sense it almost is divorce. The question is does that mean you're going to stop fighting for the oneness? That God is saying is what should be happening in the first place?
Speaker 2:Now I do think we get into like abuse and some different things. I think there's great grounds for separation If somebody is in an unsafe situation. Yeah, I think you can remove yourself from that situation. Would I immediately recommend divorce? No, and I pride myself on being in ministry for, however many years, and I've never recommended divorce one time and I just won't. I get that some people are already functionally divorced and I'm trying to get them to. No, be married, be reconciled, come together, do this thing right.
Speaker 2:But it's messy, but God fights for us and God lays down and gives his life for us. The first Adam stood by next to the tree while his wife was handed over to death. The second Adam dies on the tree so that his bride could have life. And then, obviously, in Eph 5, right, god tells husbands I want you to do that, I want you to be the life giver, suffer pain and difficulty to make sure that she has life, and I want her to live her life like this, in submission to you, walking out what you've called her to do, just like Christ has called his church.
Speaker 2:And look, it's crazy, it's a, it's an insane thing. Men, women, they're very different. It's not perfect, but I will tell you this God's way is way better than all the other things that are going on. And if you want it to be something valuable and great, I would say your relationship with God is going to define what that actually looks like. And a lot of people want to fix their marriage just by working on their marriage. And I would say you work on your marriage best by spending more time with Jesus and then allowing Jesus to tell you how you need to work on your marriage, because the stuff you think needs fixed is usually slightly different than what God is actually going to have you working on.
Speaker 1:What about people who are just maybe dating, starting out courting? What are some good signs or advice you give to watch out for this emotional divorce stuff? My wife and I courted.
Speaker 3:My wife and I courted. I was in Okinawa, japan. We met each other in Okinawa, japan, and she went back to America and I asked permission. I was old school. I asked permission to court with her parents and they said, yeah, courting means that you are pursuing marriage, you have the intent to pursue marriage, so there's no premarital sex. There has to be healthy boundaries set there. So my wife and I, when we courted, we held hands. We did not kiss. We held hands when I asked permission to marry and I could be wrong, I think we didn't kiss, but I know that when we got engaged we decided to kiss. But there had to be healthy boundaries that we had to set with each other, because some people don't have self-control. Other people do. So there's got to be some healthy boundaries.
Speaker 3:But I think an aspect of courting we intentionally knew that she was a Christian, I was a Christian and we want to fulfill it and honor God in a full transparency. My wife was pure when we got married. I was not. My wife was a virgin. I was not, but we understood that and we understood that God can still redeem my past, even though I did not fulfill what God's desire was in my own life, not yours, ted, right, yeah, but I will tell you, man, like healthy boundaries and understanding, like if you don't honor because I think one of my favorite verses I think it's Hebrews, I think it's like 11.
Speaker 3:It says the marriage bed should be undefiled and kept pure above all things. Defiled and kept pure above all things. If you are trying to be married, if you don't enter it fulfilling God's design and keeping the marriage pure, which is the supremest form of worship in a marriage in my own opinion, it's the supremest form of worship and glorifying God in a marriage with that oneness. If you don't do that beforehand, god will not honor that marriage because you've already defiled it before you even entered it. Now, if you have already done that and you're engaged, I absolutely believe that God can redeem it and honor you if you make a conscious commitment to forsake self and honor God. If you've already had pre-marital sex and say, hey, you know what Lord, we messed up, forgive us, because there's grace, and he will forgive you, but then you commit to being faithful and honoring it and he'll still bless that marriage if you honor him, you, but then you commit to being faithful and honoring it and he'll still bless that marriage If you honor him.
Speaker 2:I really believe that, man. Yeah, there's a lot there, even this topic. Tim, everything I want to do is like get into all the potential scenarios You're talking about, like dating. Here's what I would say when you, when somebody says courtship, what I would just say and you can use the term courtship, that's fine.
Speaker 2:You want to honor the role of the husband and wife that raised that person as the spiritual head and covering and responsible party for that individual, and you should not place yourself as the head or covering of that person until you are actually in that role. So what you're saying is my goal would not be to attempt to be that person's covering, attempt to pretend to be that person's pseudo-wife or pseudo-husband until that girl or that boy is ready to actually say I'm leaving them, I'm coming with you and I am trusting you as you trust God. And a lot of people want to do this. We'll meet outside of the covering halfway in between and we'll pretend to be married for a little while or we'll get as close as we can to see if it's something we actually want to go all the way with, and I'm like that's sin in every aspect.
Speaker 2:So, if she has a covering and you are not yet her covering, then you're acting like I'm actually dating her family, not her.
Speaker 2:I'm dating her. I'm dating, if you want to call it this way, or I'm courting her whole family as a unit to see if this is something that I actually want to do, not her as an individual. Apart from that, and dating wants to recognize individuals. Courtship is trying to recognize headship that God put in place and say I'm either bringing you in and being your head or you are staying there and under the authority that's going on there. But we're not pretending that there's some middle ground, because there's not. Either you're there or you're here, but we're not playing around in the middle. That's what courtship is supposed to be, which means high visibility. The whole everything you do to her I do to you joke really is kind of this covenant idea of hey, it's not her, it's us, we're deciding on you and you guys are deciding on us. And if this is a good idea, it's something that creates a new head and a new family and then you will have responsibility to defend later.
Speaker 2:One of the other big problems in our society today, tim, is father's headship. This idea of like I'm supposed to protect and provide for my daughter. That's kind of gone away. Girls are going to do what they want. They're teenagers. They're going to, you know, boys are going to sow wild oats and do that. It's like no biblical society is not supposed to look like that and husbands and wives are supposed to be deeply involved in the potential relationships that are going to happen with their kids and unfortunately we're not. We don't care about it, we just let it go. I do want to say this, cause I cause I didn't get into it and I think it's important.
Speaker 2:There are verses in portions in first Corinthians and really that have to do with abandonment. Yeah, first Peter talks about hey, if you're like, if your husband's a non-believer, you should win him over with your good behavior. But if he abandons you, if he's leaving or, I would even say it this way, if he is physically abusing you, your children are in danger. Man, get help, get out of there as soon as you possibly can. Go to a church, go to law enforcement, go to boat, whatever you got to do, but get out of that position, get some help. And I would say, if that person is not pursuing treating you better, doing the right things, and is just avoiding and leaving, then you're okay to stay where you're at Um now, obviously, if that guy can get his crap together and get his life right and get there great. But two scenarios here. One if you're in danger, leave and you're under grounds to leave, would I say you're divorced immediately. No, would I say you should try to work through that and get to a better place yes. Does he need some help? Yes. Should you stay in a safe place till that help is in place and he's doing better? Yes.
Speaker 2:If you were abandoned, though, if somebody is an unbeliever and walks out on you, the Bible is saying you don't have to go after them. If you love Jesus and they don't, and they go the way of the world and you're still here, you're not required to go chase that person down. However, I don't know that that releases you to marry someone else. Now, a lot of people would say in that case, you're good to remarry, and I think a lot of people have, and I think there's grace there for people that have, but I do. I don't know that the Bible is saying it's a good idea for you to go marry somebody else. In the event that that's happened, I think. I think at that point you might need to rely on some other people to be spiritual heads and spiritual influence and protection in your family. Normally in Israelite society, this would be your father. Your father is going to take over for you. He'll care for you and there would be justice. If somebody did that, you're literally going to kill that guy so that that doesn't happen anymore.
Speaker 1:I watched this YouTube documentary last night with my wife and stepson. I don't know if you guys it was rose something. It was about this mormon influencer on tiktok, but her kids were like super abused and she was blaming it on satan and the evil. Kids are evil, so she would like lock them in closets, duct tape their wounds, put cayenne pepper and honey on their wombs, duct tape them shut. And this kid escaped and went to the neighbor's house and, huge thing with the husband came in the picture. They've been the police station. It's like no, we've been separated for a year. It's like what was that time? You saw the kids, like when that happened.
Speaker 2:So like a year ago.
Speaker 1:That's all I was talking to my wife. I'm like Separated or not, I wouldn't just ignore my kids. Like that, like that drove me absolutely crazy and this whole thing blew up. She got life in prison and all that nonsense.
Speaker 2:But yeah, that's. That's horrifying dude, it was just weird, just go on yeah. What kind of husband leaves there Like I said, leaves their family and what kind of? What kind of wife leaves her husband and kids?
Speaker 1:Yeah, they were Mormon too, but he was also like I to listen to her and one day coming back and being married with her.
Speaker 2:To me that's a cop-out. Yeah, to me that's a cop-out. That's like, yeah, if you want me to live apart from everybody and just be in sin and not take care of my kids and not see them, that's what I'll do. That's not heroism, man, that's being a beta. That just is. I'm like I would be involved with the pastors. I beta, that just is. I'm like I would be involved with the pastors. I would be doing everything that I could to fight for my kids.
Speaker 2:There's a snowball's chance in hell that somebody is going to keep me from seeing and loving and pouring into my children. I mean, I'd die on that hill and I know sometimes there can be some man. I've been this person and that person. There's some healthy distance and spaces, I get that. But yeah, I mean, jesus fought for his bride. We need to fight for ours and the church is supposed to love and fight for a deep love for Jesus. And I would say this that love doesn't happen on its own. That's an intentional thing that you cultivate and you run after and you make happen, because it's not something that naturally just feels amazing and works out for you. Junk food happens naturally. Getting fat happens naturally. Making stupid mistakes happens naturally. Marriage, kids covenant, that takes intention, that's. That's a work of God, nice so cool.
Speaker 1:Well, hey, nick, thanks for being here, bud, yeah dude, love hearing from you.
Speaker 2:I just want to encourage anybody who is wrestling through this right now.
Speaker 2:I'm just going to pray for you and then, guys again, get help when you need, talk to a pastor if you need to, but no matter what, fight for the institution of marriage, fight for your own marriage, fight for the people in your life and fight so that you would never get to a place where this would be something that you would actually have to consider with any kind of gravity.
Speaker 2:Lord, we just pray that you would bless people who are wrestling through this. God, I pray that your presence and power would rest on them, that you would protect them from the evil one, that you would give them great strength through your word, great rest through prayer, lord, and great insight to know how to fight for the things that you say are valuable and matter. Lord, we love you and we trust you, and I just entrust these people to you who are struggling with it, and we ask that you would bless them, be with them and give them everything that they need to be the people that you've called them to, in Jesus name Amen. Right on, guys, have a great week, see you all next time.
