Navigate Podcast
Welcome to Navigate, we are two long term friends doing life and ministry together. I got tired of the same ole answers when I started looking for help when it came to my walk with God. So together we go deeper than most would on topics that most people have heard or were taught but never fully understood. It is our way of simplifying concepts that we may have over complicated throughout our lives. Bringing theology and life experience into each episode. It is our hope and desire to help Navigate your Christian walk with you
Navigate Podcast
Do Not Steal: Commandment #8
TJBHpodcast@gmail.com
Ever wonder why the concepts of theft and generosity are so deeply intertwined with our faith and ambitions? Join us as we explore how significant events like the election of Donald Trump have sparked hope and inspired people to chase their dreams with the same fervor as Elon Musk's quest to reach Mars. We navigate the delicate balance between mundane responsibilities and the pursuit of grand dreams, emphasizing the importance of rowing with the oars given to us to reach our aspirations. By sharing personal anecdotes and reflections, we illuminate the idea of staying true to one's values amid life's distractions.
What's up guys? Welcome back to Navigate Justin's here, as always.
Speaker 2:I am. I am basically always here, basically. You know, sometimes people fill in for me. We hardly ever record without you. Who's the last person that filled in for me, Like Sergio? I think AJ. I don't know. I think it was AJ. You guys take a vote. Who do we need to have back on?
Speaker 1:here instead of me. We're going to find that person. We'll get it sent. I'm going to get emails like don't ever have this guy on again. Yeah, he's terrible.
Speaker 2:Listen. Can I just take a moment and say Donald Trump was elected president and the inauguration was freaking amazing and I'm pretty pumped. I'm not generally overly political, but I straight feel like our entire country was going into the crapper. And this felt like an election where I was like God didn't kill us, all you know, like I'm not saying everything is perfect, but walking through I was like dude. This is answered prayer.
Speaker 1:Like we're not screwed.
Speaker 2:Him immediately tearing down the abortion site on the government site and stuff like.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of stuff I agree with Riding into legislation those other stuff.
Speaker 2:I was like Life begins at conception and some different. I'm just like, ok, it's happening. He wants to go to Mars. Yeah, all right, let's go.
Speaker 1:Sounds like a benefit. Yeah, I'm in.
Speaker 2:I'm in. I mean, I don't know what I'd do up there, but something We'll do something. Anyways, answered prayer.
Speaker 1:It was huge. I did see an interview with Elon Musk once. It's like how come? Because he lives in like a tiny house on site at his SpaceX place.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And he was on Joe Rogan, I think, and he was like how come you don't design your own house? Do you do this whole thing? He's like I took that in my own life. What am I doing with my life, dude, it's 100%.
Speaker 2:Like that's the question. I think about it all the time in my own life. I am at every moment making a decision about what I actually want to accomplish. Yeah, and you are always in this conversation with yourself about, like, what do I actually value and want to do versus what do I feel like I would rather punt on in the moment. Yeah, you know, and guys like that are like, nope, my whole life is actually about this. I'm that dedicated to it and it's like are we, do we take that things that seriously in our own life? And we should.
Speaker 1:I would love to know how it feels to just know that about yourself, just to be that certain about just who you are you know, I mean, I don't even know if it's a certainty thing, as much as a dedication to what you actually say. Yeah, because he believes he can get us to Mars. Like, yeah, I don't believe I could pay right next month. You know what I mean, you know.
Speaker 2:I keep bringing up this quote. What is it? It's Lewis, when he says he's like one day I hope you'll be old enough to start believing in fairy tales again. You know, I mean and we've said it on the podcast before but it's like men don't get old, they stop dreaming before. But it's like men don't get old, they stop dreaming. And it's like I think somewhere along the way we can just lose track and get so caught up in the mundane that we stop believing that God could do really cool things through nobodies. But that's kind of the story of the whole Bible and I don't know. Man, it's funny Did you bring this up? Because I talked to my wife about it because she was like you know, it was weird.
Speaker 2:She's like I used to have all these dreams and all these things that I wanted to do and like weird stuff, things that didn't even totally make sense, and she was like you had none. You're like I'm going to work hard and just try to stay alive so I can provide for it. And she's like now, when I talk to you, you got to these big, grandiose dreams and she's like I'm just trying to get laundry done. You know, it's been weird.
Speaker 2:I just think there's different times in life where the focus is just in different places, um, but I do think it's really important that we practice, let's say, faith, you know, like, practice faith, like get get good at expecting big things from a really big God. Yeah, and I like to think about it this way God will make sure you get to the other side, but he's asking you to row with the oars, you know, and sometimes I just think we punt on it. We stay in the lake, you know, and God's like I'll get you there, but he's asking you to row and it's hard, do you think?
Speaker 1:I was thinking about this the other day, actually, like what you were just talking about. Yeah, how your wife is like I'm just worrying about laundry, you got these grandiose things. Yeah, that's just part of like sometimes in life. We just get this momentum, yeah, like just this track of I'm just going to do the best I can. Here. Somebody notices Now I'm promoted, now I'm promoted and I'm doing my best here. I don't know what I'm doing.
Speaker 2:Incremental Now.
Speaker 1:I'm promoted and like you're just getting these momentums and you start getting these ideas and dreams and the light punches you in the face.
Speaker 2:You need to go back down to the bottom row Sometimes you know, I think, uh, I think there is something to be said about like, um, consistently working at something. I just think it has to be something big enough that you're actually interested in being uncomfortable to bring it about. You know, and I do think there has to be some drops of, this could happen, I can make that happen, we could do that, you know. Well, how could you do that? I don't know, but I'm going to start working that direction, I guess. I think I'm always surprised at how much gets done, you know, by consistently working at something in small increments. You know, just over and over, and over and over again. You ever been amazed at how proficient Tim you can become at like a video game?
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, you know what I mean. Well, I do it with my own job, right? When I first did maintenance stuff, dude, I hated doing toilets because I did not know anything about them. But then I took on every toilet I could possibly take on and now I could do it with my eyes closed. I just became more proficient at it.
Speaker 2:It's not a big deal. I can tell you the precise speed at which that water spins 1.3 gallons per no. My point in bringing it up was, like people do it all the time, they just do it in weird areas. Like people become proficient at securing their seat on Sunday morning before everyone else does. I will get that seat. That is my seat. If somebody else tries to get it, I will get it first. First, you know what I mean. Like, like I said, I brought up video games. A lot of people spend a ton of time getting very proficient at a video game. Okay, you know I have an affinity for Skyrim, right, I love. Like once and once a year I get on that game and it's a problem and I just need to stop. But it's a. It's one of those things where it's like man, you can become proficient to something with the amount of hours you put in it. Now, why don't we do that with things that matter? And I think it's because we don't believe we can do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or there's not that sense of gratification from it.
Speaker 2:Well, I think the gratification comes from seeing something happen, or like seeing progress, but I think we just want to see it faster or more like I just think we talk ourselves out of the reality of it actually happening, which to me is just faithlessness, that's true, you know, like this would never happen.
Speaker 2:Right why even bother trying, yeah, making progress, but is it really anything? Does it really matter? You know, and I just, I don't know, man, I think, when the Bible talks about Satan coming to steal, kill and destroy, right, he's a. He prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour and I just think, uh, I think oftentimes that means dreams, ambitions, hopes, things that you're actually trying to accomplish, the hard work that you put into something.
Speaker 2:I mean, how often do we throw, you know, I don't know if this is it all the time, but like a cold bucket of water on our ideas of what could be great before we even get there? What Satan is not throwing a cold bucket of water on is you're, you're, you know, you leveling up whatever character you're working on, or you getting through that, that obscure game that you're spending time with, or whatever, like the things that don't matter. There's, there's not a lot of opposition towards the things that do matter. You find yourself talking yourself out of all the time, and I just think we should consider as Christians maybe it's not you talking yourself out of it, maybe there is something trying to talk you out of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I think there's also the you know I want to do. If I have an hour spare time, I want to play a video game because that's going to be fun, rather than build upon something that may or may not happen.
Speaker 2:Put in a lot of work and effort on something. But I think it's that, I think it's that, I think it's that may or may not happen thing.
Speaker 1:I'll tell you what, certainly won't happen is the thing you decided not to do because you're playing video games.
Speaker 2:Life is short, justin you know life is short, enjoy every hour. You know, miss it entirely.
Speaker 1:Video games help that time pass pretty quick.
Speaker 2:It's like. It's like how about, instead of living the life that you have, have that is short and fleeting and valuable, why don't you spend it actually not doing life and make it shorter? Yeah, you know, hmm, hmm, what do I think? I'm guilty. I'm guilty, so I'm not even trying to take us down that rabbit hole. But, tim, what are we actually talking about today?
Speaker 1:What is our topic?
Speaker 2:The longest opening ever we got the commandment. What? Eight number eight today. Okay, so we're talking about don't be a kleptomaniac, don't be, do not steal, don't be stealing, yeah, don't be. Don't be thieving it seems like the most obvious and easiest one to follow oh man, you know, and maybe that's why it's a tricky one is because it's so insidious.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like. I saw some statistics. I don't even know how accurate this is. I'd love to look it up now. It was something like in the United States. They projected that employees had stolen from their employers something like $28 billion. Wow, like some insane amount, and it wasn't just You're talking about like paper clips.
Speaker 1:Well, this is the thing. This is what's funny.
Speaker 2:Not just embezzling money, oh okay, but also like stealing product amount of stuff that people were taking home that they're not supposed to take home. How many people work somewhere and you got stuff from your job that's at your house. You know what I mean. You don't give a second thought to it or you know random things going on.
Speaker 1:My cupboard is full of the plates we used to serve on when we did the kitchen days.
Speaker 2:Oh, the old ones yeah yeah, yeah, that's good, because I'm pretty sure those were getting thrown out, but the reality is people take stuff that they shouldn't. And then you brought one up right Like time, yeah, okay. So like time fraud is a big deal. It's a big deal. People do this thing where they're like okay, let's say you're scheduled for eight hours and you get your hour long lunch break, and then the average person, I think, spends something like two and a half hours scrolling through like media, social media Instagram, tiktok, whatever it is reels. If you're a guy, it's probably YouTube and clickbait, you know. Probably YouTube and clickbait, you know. And then the other portion that people spend the majority of their time on Tim, on the internet instead of work, is looking for other jobs. Oh, that's funny. That's funny.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So it's like I'm doing a bad job here at this job. I'm currently robbing my employer of the time and the funds that they're pouring into my account by doing this, and I'm looking for another person that will supply me and give me more to do the same thing I'm doing currently where I'm at. That's funny. So people do this, man, like when you think about yeah, like time, like okay, like tax evasion is another one. You know what I mean. Where people are like I don't have to pay taxes, I don't want to do that, I would say insane. Interest rates is another way that people steal. Our government steals from freaking everyone on an ongoing basis. Inflation is theft. I mean, there's a ton of stuff that you can get into. Where people have just become it's become a normal thing to manipulate people and take what does not belong to you, whether from someone or not, giving to someone.
Speaker 1:It sounded more of what's like stealing and more like stop taking advantage of people.
Speaker 2:Well, ultimately, that's what it is is taking what does not belong to you or withholding from someone what belongs to them. Right, this goes back to Genesis. This is property. So we can talk about capitalism for a minute if you want to, but in the garden, if you're wondering, like what is this capitalist idea? That is not a Christian idea, okay, right, but let me just hang on. So this idea that God puts Adam in the garden and he tells him to work the ground and to eat the produce of the ground, the idea is that God gave Adam a place, property, and he gave him land to work and that he would eat the fruit of his own hands because it would belong to him. And that he would eat the fruit of his own hands because it would belong to him. The work that he put in, the product of that work belonged to him. It became his property.
Speaker 2:So the whole Lockean idea of life, liberty and property was the original idea. Pursuit of happiness is this idea. The idea was that happiness, this picture, was these that I could have a reasonable living, I could work with my hands and actually enjoy the fruit of my labor. These things God gives to people, and we have a lot of Christians out there that have like these communist ideas that are like nobody owns anything and we all. It's some utopian, weird and it's like that's actually not biblical values. Biblical values actually reinforce this idea that you get to enjoy the fruit of your labor, the work of your hands, the property that you have, and God actually gives those things to humans, to mankind, so that they would flourish. There are verses in Thessalonians that are like if a man doesn't work, don't let him eat.
Speaker 2:How would you say that in a church? Are you kidding me? What a horrible thing. But ironically I would say someone, tim, who is not working and living off of other people, we would call that theft, right producing. If you're not helping contribute to society and you're demanding society take care of you, what you're actually doing is robbing. You're stealing from those people to benefit yourself. It's a problem. So this whole idea of you know, this capitalistic idea of life, liberty and property and working and getting the fruit of your hands and people not getting to take a giant chunk of your own stuff because they're just less fortunate I'm using air quotes here and we can talk through it. It is, it's not a biblical principle. God says what you work for, the land that you have, the fruit of your labor, that's yours and God wants you to have that, and it's a good thing.
Speaker 1:I was thinking of the verse in Ecclesiastes yeah, eat, drink and be merry, so you can enjoy the fruits of your labor at the end of the day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, that's the whole idea of pursuing happiness is this. I could actually make something of myself and I can go as far as I want. So if Elon Musk says I don't have a giant house, that I've designed and made all this stuff, why? Because I want this. Yeah, there's an economy of time here. What do you want to spend your time working on? What do you want to do? And you will be robbing from this to pay for this. You know what I mean. You are take, you are not infinite. Every decision you make is a decision not to do something else. Right, and so every, every no is a stronger yes, and every yes is a stronger no, right. So if you say yes to something, you are saying no to something else, and if you say no to something, what you're saying is something is more important than what that thing is. And not frequently we don't. We don't think about an economy of time in that sense. But yeah, I think people honestly, tim, I think people steal all the time you grow up, you know when you're a kid you're stealing music.
Speaker 2:It's a normal thing to want to steal. You know the candy bar at this place when you're a kid. I'll just take that with me. But then it becomes weird later on in your life when you can take things that don't belong to you and just assume it's okay or it's not a big deal, or somehow. I think this is what people do, is they deserve.
Speaker 2:I noticed I was playing this board game with them and um, trying to trying to spend more time just goofing off with them talking, and one of it was like there was a card where it said, um, give to the give to the poor was one option on this card that you could like succeed at and do that. Or it was steal from the rich and my kids. Every time we're picking steel from the rich and I was like it reminded me of that quote. Right, the middle class doesn't love the poor, they just hate the rich. Right, it's like you didn't. It's not that you wanted to help the people that didn't have anything, you just didn't want those suckers to have it. Right, there's something in us that wants to create our own standard and say my will be done instead of God's will. And if they have that, it must mean that they were corrupt and did something wrong.
Speaker 2:And look, here's the deal. We know that some people who are rich, are corrupt, Okay. So that doesn't help, but I would say the spectrum is both directions All right. So I would say there are very rich people who are very wicked, and I would say there are very rich people who are also very righteous, and I would say there are very poor people who are very wicked and there are very poor people who are very righteous. And it's not a one for one Right and it's not a one for one you know, and I think we want to always categorize people from a Marxist mentality, which is they have that because they were in a place of power and they've continued to withhold that from other people. I'm like that's Marxism, that's not Moses, that's garbage, that's not God.
Speaker 1:I've seen that too with, just like with these LA Fires All the celebrity homes getting burnt down.
Speaker 2:It's like, ah, they could afford a new one, yeah, just no mercy at all, even with COVID, you know when all these celebrities came out singing these stupid songs and stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we all got to come together, people, and like yeah you're alone in your mansion. Ooh, freaking who. You know what I mean Well it's a weird deal.
Speaker 2:Where we do, we tend to scorn or dislike people because they are doing well, and I think that is a in general, that is a very sinful thing. What's funny is that in cultures past let's say, old America that was something that was valued. You would look up to that person Wow, how did you do this? I hope to one day be able to do what you did. I hope to be able to build what you were able to build and and hand this onto my own kids and we would value those people and say, man, it's amazing what they did. Now we see those people and they're like you're just corrupt.
Speaker 2:Everyone is assumed to be corrupt, and I get it. There's a lot of that going on. There's a lot that is not that way, and a lot of people worked really hard for a lot of those. There's a balance there of understanding each situation is different, but the big point here is no matter what, you are not allowed to decide whether you get to steal from someone or not. You don't then get to say, well, because you're this, I deserve that. That is a wicked heart that is trying to create its own Ten Commandments and live by those instead of what God has actually communicated. And let's be honest, people steal from God all the time, all the time, all the time.
Speaker 1:Take advantage of his grace.
Speaker 2:Well, I would say, take advantage of his grace. I would poke it tithe here as well. People, I don't understand it. Okay. So God says don't do something in the Bible. You're like, yes, shouldn't do that in the Bible, you can do stuff like tithe. And people are like, well, it doesn't really mean that, that's old testament.
Speaker 1:It doesn't have to mean that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's ridiculous, whatever.
Speaker 1:Like well, it's not really a thing, and it's like you know one of a pastor that I love.
Speaker 2:He says this all the time. He says the last thing to be converted is somebody's pocketbook. You know it's like totally believe, love the Bible, love the word Great. Do you put your money where your mouth is when it comes to that? Well, not that we do this thing, tim. This is. I'm sorry I'm going down a wormhole here, but I'm just going to go and I get it, cause this is the one I hear all the time.
Speaker 2:Um, I tithe in time, or I tithe in my gifts and service here, or I tithe by uh, you know, whenever somebody needs my truck or something, I'll use that. Or I tithe instead of here. I give to this place instead, or these three other places that I really like what they do.
Speaker 1:Imagine Tim or I'm paying these three children from across the world, nicaragua or something yeah.
Speaker 2:Imagine you are a drywaller. All right, which is backbreaking work. By the way, epic uh respect If you do that, especially the sanding port. I hate sanding so much. If you're good at it, if you're good at mudding, that makes the standing a heck of a lot easier.
Speaker 1:I'm getting caught up here.
Speaker 2:Okay, imagine you do a massive job. You drywall, uh like a whole you know remodeling project in a basement or something big project. Get it all done, carry all the stuff, mud it all, sand it all, get it all ready to go, and then somebody tells you you bill them and instead of paying you, they say I'm going to pay you in my time. Uh, what would you like me to do for you? You know what I mean. I'm not good at any of this stuff or that stuff, but I can. You know I can, uh, I can make you dinner a couple of nights a week or something. Like that's not going to work, pal. I got to rent, I got to do this, I got to do that. Like that doesn't make sense. Or somebody's like here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to take what I was going to pay you, uh, for the services down here, and I'm going to give it to a bunch of other people that I think are doing really good stuff. Also, I know you are the place or the person that was doing this for me, but ultimately there's just other places I think I should give it to. I just don't get it. Like it's weird to me. People are like yes, this is totally fine, we've decided that we can come up with whatever economy we want in this area.
Speaker 2:And like, when it comes to God, when it comes to the church, when it comes to all this stuff, it cracks me up how often people come up with reasons for why what God said and how we're supposed to do things just doesn't apply to them. And I get to decide. However, I want to follow through on that. I'm like yikes, do you get to do that with murder and adultery too? Or just you know, just this one and this was the whole thing in Malachi, you know. God basically says hey, you're robbing me. And they're like how are we robbing you? They're like what you're bringing to the temple? Remember how I asked for, like you know, blemishless sheep, and they were supposed to be put together. He's like you know what you're doing. You're taking all the blemished sheep, all the sick ones and all the weird broken, jacked-up sheep, and you're like this is fine, this is cool, right, god, totally cool. And he's like not cool.
Speaker 1:Have you read Cain and Abel?
Speaker 2:The picture that the Bible gives you is God gave you. All of it belongs to God and God gives you 90%. 100% belongs to him and he gives you 90% to honor and do a good job with. And he says give me the 10. And we're like how about I pay you in mowing the lawn? You know, that's not how that works. It's tricky and we don't have to go down the wormhole and tithe the whole time.
Speaker 1:Tithing is hard for me for a lot of different reasons.
Speaker 2:Well, I think maybe let's get into those because it might be fine. I don't want to wander away from stealing, but I do think there is a very real reality where we rob God and then we blame people for why we robbed God, and I don't think that works.
Speaker 1:When you're talking about stealing and not tithing. I think that hits me a little different. Okay, for sure, yeah, but tithing's hard, like I said, when you're struggling financially period.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean. Yeah, and you have some guy who's better off than you telling you give me more money, Not saying that, but that's how it's kind of perceived. You know what I?
Speaker 1:mean when you're kind of bitter towards stuff like that, you fail to hear the good things that come out.
Speaker 2:But what I um it's, it's hard. What I think um at least worth noting in this particular topic is that most people who are in a spot where they feel like it's hard to tithe because of this or because of that never come out of that spot. They don't come out of it. They don't like start making money and then start giving. They never come out of it. They just continue in what they were doing and continue with the same reasons even when they do have um.
Speaker 2:Either you are giving because you're trusting God with it, and if it sucks, it sucks, uh and or it's going really well and I'm able to tithe or give more, even, or whatever, because this has become a normal part of my life. I just trust this to God and he's going to have to do the rest. But most people who have the mentality of I don't have enough or this is going on, have always been in that spot and even when they're out of that spot, they don't change their mentality about it in the first place because ultimately it's just a hard heart, this is a hard thing, I don't want to do it and so I'm not going to um you want me to tithe, then God pay me more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and that's what that's.
Speaker 2:My point is that people then get it, but they don't become more generous Actually this was a study done forever ago that poor are far more generous than the rich, which tells you something about why they got rich. Potentially you know what I mean Like hey, if you're more frugal or more careful with your money, maybe you just do better with it in general. That's interesting. I heard something else. Well, percentage-wise they give more right, like percentage-wise, yeah, I'm sorry. Percentage-wise the poor give more. Obviously, in overall numbers, the rich give more because they can.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I think what I'm. What I heard was the rich stay rich because they act like they're poor. Poor stay poor because they spend like they're rich.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's there's some, there's some truth there, I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think percentage wise, there's some interesting stuff to look at. But I say this to say when we think about tithing, when we think about church, you think about giving to God, robbing God. The question is ultimately about trust. What are you actually trusting to take care of you when crap hits the fan, when things do not go right? Is it ultimately that I'm trusting my financial situation to work out and I'm going to be able to make this happen? I got it? Or are you saying God's going to have to end up in poverty and not in a good place? Eventually, if you're doing the wrong things, if you're robbing God or you're robbing people, you'll continue to find yourself poor.
Speaker 2:That's the joke about drug money, right? Is? It just disappears. What happened to it? It vanished.
Speaker 2:Now I got to do this evil thing again. I got to keep doing this to make it work, and I think we oftentimes get in a cycle of like um, not being in a great spot. Now there's some guys like uh, uh, some financial advisors and stuff who will say things like okay, cool, if you got X amount of debt, put this towards this and then, once this is gone, then you can start tithing in this area and I'd say, okay, I'm not like, I'm not trying to beat somebody down who's in a super bad spot. So if you're like dude, I don't even know how I would figure this out or how this would work, I get that. I'd say, meet with some people and at least start with figuring out how you get in a good place. But I would say, if you start making progress and you're not putting God first in this area, you never will. Either you make a conscious decision to do that or you will continue to come up with reasons for why what God has asked of you is unacceptable and you're just unable to do it. This is what a lot of people do with their marriage. It's what a lot of people do with their habit of lying. It's what a lot of people do with their addiction. Is my circumstance is different than other people's circumstance, therefore I don't have to, but we feel more justified about that, I think, with money than anything else. And I mean I have reasons potentially for why, but I just think it's a sin that we feel more acceptable about because you're viewed as a monster the second you bring it up. You know what I mean. Like how dare you right If God talks about it and you're a pastor and you don't talk about it, you're probably being a little bit unfaithful.
Speaker 2:But ultimately, this idea of theft man, it's rampant. And I would say the government, like I said, steals from people. I would say people steal from people, employees steal from employers. Employers oftentimes will withhold from employees. People do stuff online all the time where they'll sell something that says it's this and it's not. You rip somebody off. That's a type of theft. There's all kinds of people who are caught up in stuff like this and whether it's small or whether it's large, it's actually rampant.
Speaker 2:So when we read you shall not steal, we tend to think that we're not, and I think the Bible puts this in here strategically, because I think we are hardwired to steal apart from the grace of God, and the first person that we tend to steal from is God. And then when we steal from God, then we feel also justified in stealing from other people, because we put ourself in a place where we feel like, well, my law is actually more important than God's law, because I know better than he does in this area. And then we apply oftentimes those same standards in our inner workings with other people, which is again where the two tables of the law. You have to love God, and then it shows you it. It comes out in how you love people. But if you're not loving God in this particular area, that's also going to show up in how you treat other people.
Speaker 2:And I would just encourage people in their life and in their thinking, man, take inventory. How cool are you with leaving early when you're getting paid by the hour? How OK are you with taking stuff from work that you're not really supposed to? How cool are you with withholding something from somebody that you're not actually supposed to? Are you robbing the Lord? Are you robbing people? And I would say, if you're doing one, you're probably doing both and maybe you just haven't totally thought about it. But we have hearts that are constantly desiring things that do not belong to us, and the Bible is saying you've got to get ahead of that, and how you treat the Lord ends up being how you treat other people. And so just this might be an episode that people absolutely hate.
Speaker 2:Tim, I don't know, I didn't. I guess I didn't think that we were going to get into tithing and then I was like oh yeah, but people rob God. So here we, here we are. Give me your thoughts on this, tim. Give me your take. What do you? What do you think about when you think about this Don't steal this. You shall not steal.
Speaker 1:You know, like the first inclination is don't take something that doesn't belong to you. Sure, all right. But then let me ask you then that age old philosophical question Would you still bread to feed your family?
Speaker 2:Yeah, great question, great question. I think what's interesting about the Bible, especially in Proverbs, is it says basically, don't punish a man who steals to feed his family. Oh really, which is weird. Yeah, like now you're supposed to punish for stealing, like so if somebody takes something and it does not in fact belong to them, okay, there's a problem If somebody is literally starving to death and they take something to feed their family. The Bible actually had it kind of written in there yeah, help the guy out, right? You know what I mean. When people would like harvest fields, tim, they would literally tell people hey, don't go back and clean up the extra stuff that you didn't get to leave that for the poor, leave it for them, which is like, well, isn, isn't that theft? Not if god commands you to give it to them. Ironically, people would rob god and go ahead and go back through and take it, and then it wouldn't, then they wouldn't have anything for the poor and by robbing god they would be robbing everyone else that was, uh, the verses that came to my head.
Speaker 1:Man was the John the Baptist sermon of God's coming. He's going to chop out the roots. Like what should we do? It's like if you have two tunics, give the neighbor one who doesn't have one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, take care of them. Take care of them.
Speaker 1:Jesus talks about it too, and then James talks about the same thing.
Speaker 2:Well, there's a culture of hospitality.
Speaker 1:There's this culture there.
Speaker 2:yeah, it's, that was supposed to exist where people are still going to take care of each other and like laws about hey, you're not allowed to give somebody this much if they're not actually able to pay you back without endangering their livelihood. We've got creditors now that are like, yeah, spend it right, like it's dangerous. What people do, let's say an ungodly society, produces a greater amount of poverty and a greater amount of wickedness, because people are more okay with stealing from people than they should be. And so if you're more okay with stealing from people, you also become more, let's say, aggressive in areas where you shouldn't.
Speaker 2:When God is saying, no, you're supposed to give to that. You should take care of the poor. You should care about these things. Now, does that mean I'm a fan of the poor doing a bunch of wicked things and getting away with it? No, what that means is, if somebody is legitimately hurting, you as a Christian should try to help that person, and if they're in such a place where, literally, my family is going to starve to death and you have it within your means to help them out, you should help them out. Does that mean the government should obligate you to allow people to steal from you?
Speaker 1:No, no, that's different, especially with, like, money issues. Yeah, I'll never ask people for money. It's necessary, but I always feel like if I'm asking for money, it's because I did something wrong. Yeah, therefore I need to atone for this. Yeah, not anybody else, right?
Speaker 2:Which is another way of saying again that I am the sovereign in this area. Yeah, and how dare anybody else speak into it or have anything to do with it? And it's like no, you got to let God speak into every area of your life.
Speaker 1:Well, that's the thing. Sometimes that sucks, I'll fix it. God, I'll fix it, don't worry, I'll get this right, I'll do it your way.
Speaker 2:After I do it my way to fix it, so I can do it your way. Does that work in any other area of life for you? No, and look, I got to tell you, Tim, I am not a wizard when it comes to finances. I am not that guy. I'm far from it. Okay, Made lots of mistakes.
Speaker 2:Me and Tiff accrued gosh like a bunch of debt. Early on I think I proposed that I was making like $10 an hour. You know what I mean. Sometimes we just, we were just, things just did not work out. We never had a lot.
Speaker 2:Frequently we've had in our house not recently, but frequently we've had bare cupboards trying to make it work, trying to figure out how is this going to happen, how are we going to pay for that? Holes in socks, need and stuff. I mean, dude, five kids, one income, pastor salary. It is not always been great and we haven't always done everything right, but I can say with a clean conscience we've never robbed God and he's taken care of us. And I'm not saying everything's always been comfortable, dude. Sometimes it's been hard and I've given away stuff that I shouldn't have and like, oh, if I would have done that again, that guy didn't you know? Whatever, whatever. But I think it's important that and some of this I got to credit my dad for because he was crazy about this, but he taught us from a very young age. You got to do this and if it just becomes a norm for you, you get rid of it. You just give it to God Before you stare at it too long.
Speaker 1:You get tempted to do something stupid. That's very true.
Speaker 2:And that doesn't mean, oh, I'm always going to have enough and everything's going to go perfect. It means it will always have enough, that God will take care of you. It doesn't mean every bill will be paid on time and this and that you do the best that you can to God and honor him and start there and work through what the difficulties are that I need to handle, then rob God and then try to make it on my own without his blessing. In that area.
Speaker 1:That's the other thing with tithing. For me, man was always I'm doing this because I have to, but not because my heart tells me I should. I'm okay with that, like I'm doing this, so God will bless me.
Speaker 2:No, no, no Like, let me Because that's how it's preached a lot.
Speaker 2:Let me help with this, because that pisses me off too. Okay, imagine somebody was like Tim you don't murder people because you have to, you murder. You don't murder people because you get to. Right, okay, right, look, I get it. And I've said this the heart posture should be a get to, not a have to. I don't want to do checklist mentality. However, not everything in life is just daisies and roses and freaking fun and perfect. Hard things require sacrifice because they are in fact, better, and you're not going to make it to Mars if you're working on a bougie house. Right Again, it's the same principle coming back up, and I would say, with everything that we're talking about.
Speaker 2:Sometimes people are like well, if my heart isn't right yet, then it's okay to beat my wife, because I'd rather not beat my wife for the right reason than the wrong one. You know what a stupid thing to say no, like do the right thing, even when you don't feel like it, because that's actually that's worship. It's not what. It was awesome and everything was best case scenario, but I gave something of value. I brought that verse up from 2 Samuel. I bring it up all the time 24, 24. I won't give to the Lord something that costs me nothing, and sometimes people want to feel like I'll only give to the Lord when it doesn't feel like it costs me anything, because that's when I feel best about it. God doesn't care about your feelings as much as he cares about your honest heart desire to do the right thing, even when it's difficult. And sometimes I think we mix those up, like if it's really difficult and I don't feel great about obeying God here, then that must be wrong.
Speaker 1:I must be a hypocrite. And he's saying no, what that?
Speaker 2:is is worship Cause. What you're saying is dang it, I don't want to do this, but I'm going to because I love God and I love doing what he says, more than I love this easy way out in this particular circumstance. That that is what it's supposed to look like. You think the disciples are like you know what I love? Being homeless, walking around, I just get to do this, isn't this great? I get to do it all the time, you know, like they're getting into arguments and pissing each other off, and it wasn't always great. Look, it's just. It really.
Speaker 2:I just I would like to remind everybody that doing things when you don't necessarily feel about it again I've said it before is not hypocrisy, it's character, and what it means is there is something deeper in me that wants to do the right thing than the easy way out. That seems acceptable right now, and if you're saying, I'll do it when my heart's in a better place, what I'm hearing you say is I actually have a deeper allegiance to something else other than what I know to be right, and so I'm going to punt on what's right in the name of what I think is better, and that's self-worship. That's something else entirely and I'm guilty of that, so I wouldn't want people to hear me say this like well, I guess Justin just always does the right thing all the time. No, I get it growing that I'm working at it. But I would not want to confuse people.
Speaker 2:When people say, like it's relationship, not religion, sometimes it makes me angry because there's a sense in which a hundred percent yeah, yeah, it's a relationship with God. But what you mean by relationship, not religion is you're only doing it right If your heart is 110% in it, then you're going to fail your marriage, you're going to fail your kids, you're going to quit your job, you're going to quit doing hard things because your heart is never going to be 100% into the right thing that you're supposed to do. Because this is a fallen world and you are a broken person. There's a sense in which your soul, your spirit, your allegiance has to be to something greater than you, or you are always going to fall to the level of your emotions in any given minute. You know any given circumstance.
Speaker 2:So when we think about the 10 commandments in general, we think about not stealing. Sin is always trying to get you to settle for second best. Second best is the video game you could be playing instead of the book you could be writing, right, right. And you have to make a conscious decision in the moment not to rob God, not to rob others.
Speaker 2:But ultimately, what we're talking about right now is not robbing yourself, because if God is calling you to something, he's put a call on your life, he's put something in your heart. He's saying if you give your allegiance to me first and you learn discipline here, then when I'm actually calling you to do something that will benefit you and get you where you need to go, then you will not rob yourself of the destiny that I've called you to as well. But if you're willing to rob me, then you're going to be willing to rob others and ultimately you're going to rob yourself because you lack discipline in all the areas, and what allows you to see that the bills paid and the things taken care of is not just your, ultimately, your tenacity in something, but your allegiance to God's way of doing things. That then shows up in these other areas. People say it this way God's not into your money, or God's not trying to get your money. He's trying to get your money from having you right.
Speaker 2:Which is another way of saying don't be a slave to those things. Continue to do what God has called you to do. And I would just I would say to a lot of people you're robbing yourself when you're robbing God, because ultimately, you're punting on what he's called you to do and something greater, in the name of what you think makes more sense in the moment, and that is what is killing all of us, ladies and gentlemen, that's true.
Speaker 1:So just a good reminder. Hard sacrifice Reminds me of the show I watched or read I don't remember what it was. You know the story of the monkey paw.
Speaker 2:No, I'm about to learn Everyone lean in.
Speaker 1:I'm probably going to butcher this, but I've heard this a long time ago. You're going to monkey it up. Some gypsy sells this monkey paw to these two mom and dad who just lost their son. Okay, and they said this monkey Paul grants wishes. It's like, well, we wish for our son to come back. Well, it turns into a horror movie because the son comes back, but it's not the son that died. You know what?
Speaker 2:I mean Okay. It's like a monster show it's like a zombie or something he's banging on the doors, trying to get in to kill his family. Some kind of Frankenstein monster.
Speaker 1:It's a moral story of care for what you wish for. It's never going to work out the way you think it is, but when you think of sacrifice and hard men and those other objects in this house too, where it's like a typewriter that can write horror stories but the people die in real life- oh geez, there's always like some stipulation, there's a catch.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'm constantly thinking of that because I'm like I'd do that. If I'm constantly thinking of that because I'm like I'd do that, if I'm being realistic, maybe not the kill people one, but there's you just want this easy Not on the air while we're talking about it out loud. If somebody were to come to you like hey, I will give you this.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But it's going to cost this.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean. It's an interesting thought for me.
Speaker 2:You know, can I tell you why I think it's tantalizing?
Speaker 2:Because, it doesn't require faith. Yeah, If I just know what it's going to cost, then I do it. No, you wouldn't. No, you wouldn't I just. I just think it's our desire to be in control. This is why a lot of people fall into witchcraft, man Cause so many people are like, if I know the cost, then I can maintain control. And it puts me in this position where I can leverage this to get what I want. And it's like there's it's the opposite of faithlessness.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or it's the opposite of faith. It's this faithlessness that's continuing to put itself on display, and I just think it's more like God saying trust me, I'll balance the scales, I'll work it out. You don't take from other people, don't take from them, don't withhold from them, and in doing that, I will continue to give to you and you will be able to not take from the story that I'm writing for you, and it'll be a whole different story. If you would live that kind of way and I just think we should we would do well, as Christians, to embrace the story God has for us, live under the constraints that he's given to us, whether we want to or not, in certain circumstances, and allow God to write the story that you were meant to live.
Speaker 1:Let me ask you this real quick yeah, I'm going to end with this, but when you're talking about, like, the desires of your heart, that you know you can play video games or you could write a book right, or whatever feel in the blink, do you think there's moments in your life, though, that you can look back on and be like, oh yeah, that actually kind of makes sense for me, like people have said that about throughout the years, so I must try to think of a way to, like, motivate you to do the thing that God has placed in you to do.
Speaker 2:Like identifying what I should be doing.
Speaker 1:That, as we go through life like people have called out in us that you didn't believe at the time or still don't. Yeah, sometimes, yeah, I think, um not to say things would be easy with the things that God wants you to do, but to say, oh, not to say things would be easy with the things that God wants you to do, but to say, oh, you know what this actually makes sense, and if you tell someone he's like that makes sense for you.
Speaker 2:I'm just weird enough to believe that you can punt on things that you should have done.
Speaker 2:I do.
Speaker 2:I think there are some people who are given a calling or a unique ability or something that they should be able to do and then don't do it before God and then end up losing all of it.
Speaker 2:Like Saul, to me, is one of these people. God gives him the nation, he screws up a bunch of stuff and then gets it taken away from him, and you can say God took that away from him, or you can say he took it away from himself. Right, and I think oftentimes in our life although I believe in God's sovereign decree and we could get into all that stuff what I would like to zoom in on is the reality that the decisions that we make do in fact have consequences, and either you can live a life, let's say, that is intentionally more adventurous, full of faith, a little bit crazier, and may or may not go the way that you think it will, but it will be awesome, or you can short up your bets, you can play it safe. You can never leave the cul-de-sac and you can blame God for not being cool and say all the stuff that people said about me and the cool things that could have happened. They were just saying, they were just words. It didn't mean anything. They were wrong, they were nice.
Speaker 2:And uh, and both of those people will be right, right. You know, what if it's something that didn't like? There's no indication at all in your life that this is what you're supposed to do, but yet there's something in you that says?
Speaker 2:you have to do it. I think the person who says there was no signs about who I was or what I was supposed to do is lying. Really. I mean, I think this. I don't really like this as much. This is fun. This comes naturally. This does not come naturally. Everyone is always analyzing some level of the work that they're doing and who they are. This is why everybody is so obsessed with Enneagram and Myers-Briggs and all these different personality tests. Everybody's like trying to analyze who am.
Speaker 2:I you know? Um, I think it's natural to us. The question is not who are you, Although that is incredibly important, but it's what are you going to do about it? Um, and a lot of people want to fudge the rules and, uh, they want to do things their own way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. And what they find is they get Frankenstein's monster instead of the thing that they were hoping to actually get, because you, uh, you know there's no free lunch. You know what I mean. It's either you do it the right way Uh, what's what's the word? It was um either you, um, either it's really hard now or it's really hard later.
Speaker 2:And it's like the point was either you're disciplined now and have to put in a lot of hard work and you have a good outcome, or you're undisciplined and you have equal amount of hard work. That comes along with just being undisciplined and you have no outcome. Choose, you know. And sometimes I feel like that that is what God is saying Like I've given you this gift and either you can squander it and be pissed off, or you can put the same amount of work in and have frustration but actually have the outcome that I wanted for you. And again, it's tricky. I suck at it all the time. I don't always choose wisely, okay, but that's the whole bit in Deuteronomy 30, right? I've laid before you today life and death. Now, choose life so that you may live, and that's what God's calling us to. Awesome All right man.
Speaker 1:Well, I'll do it Right on.
Speaker 2:Okay, guys, I enjoyed talking to you about just the commandments. It's been fun walking through these and thinking through the reality of it, but praying, you guys are blessed by this and encouraged and pray that God would use.
