Navigate Podcast
Welcome to Navigate, we are two long term friends doing life and ministry together. I got tired of the same ole answers when I started looking for help when it came to my walk with God. So together we go deeper than most would on topics that most people have heard or were taught but never fully understood. It is our way of simplifying concepts that we may have over complicated throughout our lives. Bringing theology and life experience into each episode. It is our hope and desire to help Navigate your Christian walk with you
Navigate Podcast
Do Not Lie: Commandment #9
What if our obsession with appearances is preventing us from living authentic lives? This episode tackles the fine line between honesty and manipulation, exploring how societal pressures often lead us to present curated versions of ourselves. Join us as we start with some light-hearted banter about hair loss and impersonations before delving into the serious conversation about the ninth commandment and its implications for honesty in our communities. We dissect how this age-old principle remains relevant today, especially when navigating conflicts and disputes, urging listeners to embrace truthfulness as a foundation for strong, meaningful relationships.
Hey guys, welcome back to Navigate. I'm going to be solo today, just here to talk to you all. I guess I'm fired, oh hey. You ruined my intro, justin, I'm so sorry. No Justin's here, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2:It turns out I'll be doing this solo today.
Speaker 1:One of the people stopped and they heard that Let me do my best.
Speaker 2:Tim impression. Hello everyone, I'm Tim Brown. I'm here with my good friend Justin. How was that? Was that?
Speaker 1:decent, I think so. I mean, you got that deep. I wish I sounded that cool, juicy voice you know, do I?
Speaker 2:I can't do it. Yeah, I can't do it. As clean, I'll get there. Let me work on it. I'll do a Tim one day and people will freak out. We'll switch chairs too. When we do it, I'll shave my head, it'll be awesome.
Speaker 1:Don't you do that to the world, Justin? You have hair. You flaunt that. Hey, speaking of lies.
Speaker 2:Let's get into it. I've been going bald for a while. Dude, it's probably going to happen to me, it probably will. It's definitely been thinning out. So far, so good, you know you think it looks nice.
Speaker 1:There's a guy on staff where I'm like is somebody going to tell him it's time? Is somebody going to tell him it's time? I don't want to be that guy, but somebody should tell him.
Speaker 2:Somebody's got to let him know. Hey, buddy, it's time. Those last hairs are screaming for mercy. Give it to them.
Speaker 1:They're hanging on by nothing. That's so funny. That's so funny.
Speaker 2:I'm like you don't want to say those things because God will do it to you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so true.
Speaker 2:There's some things. You just can't say All right, buddy?
Speaker 1:Well, okay, we're on number nine.
Speaker 2:Commandment number nine. Commandment number nine All right, not bearing false witness against your neighbor, against your neighbor. So it's totally fine to do that with people that aren't Good yeah.
Speaker 1:Good.
Speaker 2:What's considered?
Speaker 1:neighbor.
Speaker 2:The Bible uses that terminology all the time Neighbor tends to be the phraseology used, because it wasn't a globalist culture. We live in a day and age where we know what's going on in Scotland. You know what I mean. But that was not the nature and way of people in this time period. Everybody's frame of reference was the people that I'm living and doing life and you know my future and everything with you didn't have this idea of you know different people in different places doing different things in different cultures. We have that idea today because we have kind of a pluralistic, secular mentality in general that likes to weigh everything and everyone is equal, no matter how they do things or what they're doing.
Speaker 2:That was not the mentality of people back in the day and it's not the mentality of societies that thrive, for the record, just throwing it out there. But the idea was the people that you are doing life with, the community that you are a part of and the culture that you are desiring to give and benefit. Those are your neighbors. So anywhere that you would go, any place, you find yourself, the place that you are. That is your neighbor. Those are the people that you're with, the people you just come into contact with on a daily basis?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean it very much, is the culture that I'm a part of. Okay, mm-hmm, okay, and there wasn't this idea of, well, we have to honor or figure out how to make it work with the pygmies. You know, yeah, it wasn't. It wasn't a thing like that. That's how we tend to think. But, yeah, neighbor.
Speaker 2:Neighbor ultimately means so far as it depends on you, in the area, the culture, the place that you find yourself, seek its wellbeing and treat them as neighbors. This is the story of when Jesus makes the point with the story of the good Samaritan. You know, the guy asks him who is my neighbor? And he's like the people that you're around. I'm like, yeah, but they're not part of my culture, I don't care, treat them well, seek their benefits, seek their wellbeing. And those guys were literally next door. You know what I mean. It wasn't like those guys were an ocean away. They literally were on like the same plot of land. You know what I mean. Yeah, yeah, an ocean away. Literally, we're on like the same plot of land. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. So our tendency is to be factious and ultimately, our goal should be to no treat everyone like you would a neighbor.
Speaker 1:Okay, Don't withhold so when we're talking about the ninth one here. Do not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Was that just lying?
Speaker 2:Ultimately, this language is associated more with, like a courtroom. So this commandment and the third commandment we've talked about before are deeply related, right, like they have this clear connection about the way that we should process, like using God's name in vain and not bearing false witness against your neighbor are two sides of the coin when it comes to how I'm in relationship with God and understanding my standard before him. And then this commandment is really how that extends and works its way out into the world around me and the people around me. So, yeah, this is functionally saying hey, in a tiff or a kerfuffle or whatever you want to call it, when you find yourself in a place where difficulty is happening, don't be somebody who is telling lies about your neighbor to get your way. Don't be somebody who is falsely saying something so that you can manipulate the situation to get what you want out of it, that you can manipulate the situation to get what you want out of it. So we tend to man this is everywhere. This is, I mean, this is everywhere. You want to talk about the most pervasive commandment as far as it's being broken, not bearing false witness, I feel like is just everywhere and it makes sense, right, like Satan is quite literally called the father of lies, right?
Speaker 2:I think I like the ESV's translation. It says something like when Satan speaks lies, he speaks out of his own character. When Satan speaks lies, he speaks out of his own character. Like, literally, this is, this is his, this is the representation of his character. Is that he? He tells? He tells lies to people. That's, that's everything that he does. This is part of why Jesus is saying let your yes be yes, let your no be no. You know what I mean? Like, just just tell the truth. Anything else man is coming from somewhere else. So you're trying to manipulate a situation and make it something that it's not supposed to be. This is the whole idea of the truth setting you free, and I mean the Bible has a lot to say about. Hey, tell the freaking truth. Tell the freaking truth and you get into Deuteronomic law and some of the areas where it talks about this specifically and how this works. Like Deuteronomy 19.
Speaker 2:If a malicious witness arises to accuse a person of wrongdoing, that both parties to the dispute shall appear before the Lord, before the priests and the judges who are in office in those days. The judges shall inquire diligently and if the witness is a false witness and has accused his brother falsely, then you shall do to him as he had meant to do to his brother, so you shall purge the evil from your midst. Great reminder, like God saying hey, this is the father saying to the boy who's taking his daughter out. Whatever you do to her, I'm going to do to you. Right, like it's this there should be a respect, there should be an honor in how we treat each other and think about these things.
Speaker 2:So, when I think about this commandment, tim, ultimately I think about social media almost immediately. I think about dating sites, I think about Instagram, I think about filters that people use for the pictures that they have. I think about, like, the way that people are constantly trying to manipulate situations by either a adding to the truth, b withholding the full truth or c just outright lying yeah, you know, um or outright giving a falsity. I guess you could say, but it's uh, it's kind of everywhere, man like like uh, you know somebody, somebody's setting up a dating profile.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean? I was like oh, this or that. You're like well, are you fudging the truth? Great question, if you put something on your job application that's not true, it's a lie. What are you doing? Well, I'm trying to manipulate the situation to get what I want. I saw something the other day that was like we'll take a regular picture that you have and we'll turn it into like a business picture for your profile. I'm like you didn't actually take that picture. You weren't actually there. You get like deep fakes really fast and what's happening?
Speaker 1:with AI Dude it's.
Speaker 2:The culture of deception is insane. I'm trying to think about the. I think it was the guy who actually created the atomic bomb who said the truth is so valuable it's usually guarded by an army of lies. It's like you have to dig through stuff to find it. I think he said the only thing more dramatic or dangerous than the atomic bomb, it's truth itself. Like people are horrified, people finding out the real truth, what's actually going on in circumstances, and it begs the question why, you know it's also turned kind of everything into a conspiracy. Nobody trusts authority anymore. Nobody trusts authority anymore. Nobody trusts government anymore. Nobody trusts anybody who you know is supposed to be allegedly, you know, trustworthy. And we've come to a culture now where it's almost worse because it's not that lying, people lying and living in a culture where lying is such a big deal makes you work harder for the truth. It actually makes you care less about what the truth actually is because you feel like you have no way to find it, so it doesn't really matter. That's true.
Speaker 1:What about would you consider like going back to the dating profile stuff or the job application? The stuff I'm going to tell you are just the best parts of me, but I'm not going to tell you about insecurities or my doubts, fears. Is that a form of lying?
Speaker 2:Not necessarily. I bring this up real quick, sorry.
Speaker 1:But, like if I was asked for a different position, it's like, well, let's talk to you see, if this is something. It's like, yeah, I want to do this. Yeah, but it's always been me who's like I got to tell you.
Speaker 2:I don't know if I can.
Speaker 1:Like I want to, but I'm going to need some skills and practices and training, and like I can't just jump in here.
Speaker 2:Well, everybody sat down with an overshare or two, right? You're like, oh my gosh, I don't need to know all of this.
Speaker 1:I feel like that's me, because I don't want them to hire me and be like oh, you're not the guy, that's something worse, I really would like this job, but I got to tell you I'm a terrible person.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, and I doubt everything.
Speaker 1:That's basically. I think what comes out sometimes is like I want you to be 100% sure you know what you're dealing with here. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Look, it's not that, hey, I have to explain every aspect of everyone or to everyone about everything. It's pertinent information that you are withholding, All right. Really, what it is is willfully being malicious or manipulative, and I would say, having a tender conscience where you're like I want to make sure that I'm not being manipulative is a good thing. I don't think that's a bad thing. I don't think it's something that our, our, um, let's say our, our culture values. You know what I mean. Like, I don't think people value honesty the way that they should. Now, they value appearances over honesty. A thousand to one.
Speaker 2:I would say everybody acts like they, you acts like they value honesty, which is why Selena Gomez is posting videos online of herself crying about the immigration laws that are going on, and then, when she gets flack from her own fan base, she takes it off immediately. Well, if you actually cared about what you were saying, you would leave it up, but if it was just virtue signaling oh, I didn't realize that you weren't interested in that I guess I'll take it down now. Okay, now see, this is a falsity, it's just manipulation and it's pretty prevalent man. But no, yeah, it's not that I have to share every ounce of everything about myself with everyone that I talk to. No, it's what's the information that's relevant, so that I'm not being disingenuous or manipulative in any given circumstance, and I would say that's tricky. Yeah To me, tim, I'll just go here for a second. Okay, let's talk about makeup, can we Just for a minute?
Speaker 1:I haven't worn that in years. Go ahead, I still wear the high heels, but only when I'm by myself. So many comments.
Speaker 2:What is the, what's the purpose of makeup? Ultimately, beauty, okay, yeah, this could be just, let's say, elevating the features that are already there. Sure, all right, done correctly. Could makeup be disingenuous? Yeah, okay, is it like we would say, a filter is disingenuous, right? Sure, like, yeah, it's not what you look like.
Speaker 1:And then I met you and your dating profile and you're 50 years older, or um, you've seen those videos of like the like, I think the japanese girls makeup removal stuff I don't think so you put like rubber prosthetics to make themselves look like 20 years younger.
Speaker 2:It's creepy that's wild, it is creepy wild, you have knives cutting through their noses and it takes.
Speaker 2:It didn't look like they're 80 years old now, so it's wild, sorry yeah, it's scary, but but what I would say so it's interesting to me is like, okay, if you and I'll just go here for a second if you're a woman and you're wearing like, let's say, uh, high heels, mini skirt, excessive, you know, makeup or whatever long, you did that thing to your eyes that I don't understand. That makes you look like an Egyptian, you know like eyebrows.
Speaker 1:That's a thing.
Speaker 2:There is a there is a type of way that you can present yourself where you're using more like, let's say, uh, sexual manipulation in your interactions and in your dress. Then then let's say authentic, real, um, let's say, using who you actually are versus what you have. To me it would be the same thing as a, as a guy flaunting, uh, how much money he makes and what he drives, and what he wears and what he dresses and all this stuff to to uh, let's say, try to try to catch a lady. Like there's a way, there's a way that you should present yourself where you're not presenting yourself as a product, but you're presenting yourself as a person.
Speaker 2:I think presenting yourself as a product is a form of manipulation and lying. You're trying to be a salesman for yourself and I'm not. Look, here's the deal. I'm not saying women don't wear makeup and don't wear nice clothes. No, there's a difference between hey, god has given me a body, this is how I look. I want to dress up for my husband or my family, or I want to make sure that I look like a decent human individual.
Speaker 1:Present yourself.
Speaker 2:well, go put bonnets on and be weird Guys. I'm not saying you can't have a nice car or whatever. The question is is that the, the, is that the stamp of who you are? Is that what you're using to get what you want? Or are you somebody who is honorable, loves the Lord you know what I mean Tells the truth, has virtue, has character and is upfront about, let's say, um, the, the things about you that maybe aren't as beautiful or serious on the outside, like, let's be honest, anytime you get into a relationship with somebody you're meeting, there's a social interaction that is a little bit normal.
Speaker 2:Let's say, you're not immediately like here's all the, here's the 56 issues that I have, you're starting with, do I even like hanging out with you? And then, once there's some trust okay, I see you're not trying to manipulate me Let me share some things that. Let me see what you do with these. Is this a problem? Is this an okay? Now we're, we're taking things a level. This is a normal process for relationships, but what happens now is we lie to each other. We hook up and then we find out who each other actually are and then we break up and usually there's a baby. You know what I mean and it's like well great, what was that? That was two people manipulating each other, and the consequences of that is horrible.
Speaker 1:Just telling you what you want to hear, more so than anything else.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's more like a transaction right Based on a couple of false premises to get what I wanted or what you wanted or whatever, and it's really messy. Obviously, this can happen in lots of different circumstances. Anybody who's been lied to realizes how horrible this actually feels and how terrible this really is. Judas betraying Jesus is ultimately a lie. Betrayal is a lie. It's this idea that I could trust someone, that we had friendship, that you were sharing with me who you were, and then it turns out you were somebody else and working for the other side. That's horrible.
Speaker 1:That's a problem? Is there a good way to lie? Well, and not in the sense of be better at manipulating people, but is there circumstances where lying would be acceptable? If I were to tell the truth, it would make things way worse.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So the classic lie that people bring up in scripture is in Egypt, when Pharaoh is trying to murder all these babies, he tells the midwives hey, if it's a boy when the baby arrives, I want you to kill the baby. And the midwives keep arriving late and they're like oh, these Hebrew women, man, they're just quick with their labors, they're having these babies and taking care of it themselves before we even get there. So we haven't been able to kill them. And it says that God basically honored what they did. They were lying ultimately to protect life.
Speaker 2:So is it acceptable to deceive wicked people and wicked things so that you can protect life? Yes, like. Here's a question to ask that's like a more classic hey Tim, would you lie to an authority who is trying to take your family to a death camp? 100% I would right yeah, absolutely. Is that justified before God? Yes, because what are you doing? Ultimately, you're trying to honor God and protect your family from somebody who is wicked and evil, who does not have the right intent at heart. But that's a consequence of you could misunderstand the spirit of the law here and the letter of the law, which is what Jesus tends to bring up all the time, like when he's talking about hey man, he tells the Pharisees like you guys tithe your dill and cumin and mint, but you neglect the things in the law that are actually more important than that. You're really good at following this rule, but when it's convenient, you make a rule to make it not the case.
Speaker 2:So if somebody said, well, I had to tell the truth. Usually the only time somebody says that is when they threw somebody else under the bus. You know what I mean. Because they didn't actually want to be honest and acted like they were doing something virtuous, which is bearing false witness. Because what did I do? I lied about the intentions of my heart and I shared with you something that actually wasn't the case. This is why the Bible is using language all the time. Like the Lord judges the heart, man tends to judge the appearance, but God is looking at you and who you are and what's actually going on in your guts, and our tendency is to play a game of manipulation with people so that we can get ahead and get what we want. And it's messy.
Speaker 1:It's messy.
Speaker 2:The term we associate with this most readily now is politics or being a politician. Right Is is intentionally manipulating social situations and appearances to to bring about a particular, you know order or regime or whatever it is that you want to you want to bring about. But it happens from the time you, you know we're kids. It's very easy. You don't have to teach your kids to lie. You have to teach them to tell the truth.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, that's very true. Could you throw in slandering and gossip into this mix too? Yeah, yeah because it's ultimately manipulation. But gossip is not necessarily lying, is it?
Speaker 2:Gossip is saying something that may or may not be true about somebody without their ability to defend themselves. Okay, so if I'm talking to somebody and I'm saying so-and-so, said this, is that their side of the story too? Or is it just my side of the story? Yeah, just my side of the story. So what does that mean? It's not the full truth. My side of the story Just my side of the story. So what does that mean? It's not the full truth?
Speaker 2:One of the big problems that we have today, tim, is this question about is somebody guilty until proven innocent, or are they innocent until proven guilty? And I just was reading this story about this guy who was accused of rape, who was going to go into the NFL like star athlete, did an amazing job. This girl hated him, accused him of rape, he was convicted and then, five years later, after five years of him being in prison, she confessed that it was a lie. She did it just to get back at him for something Never happened and he went to prison, ruined his entire career, could have been in the NFL making millions of dollars, whatever and was basically thrown in prison because somebody said something that was untrue. That's bearing false witness against your neighbor, and that's people taking the side of somebody just because without actually figuring out if that person was guilty or not, actually figuring out if that person was guilty or not. And our um, look man, this is prevalent today, this is very prevalent today, and I would just say that, um, the cultural Marxist perspective that is pretty darn prevalent in our world today is you are guilty because of who you are, not even what you've done. Uh, if you're white, you're guilty. If you're a man, you're guilty. If you're straight, you're guilty. If you're Christian, you're guilty. Of all of that and some. Why Did I do anything? No, no, it's not what you did, it's who you are right. Well, everything that you do is wrong. Even if you do the right thing, it's wrong. The joke is, what was it? It's the Matt Walsh thing I watched. He was talking to somebody about his kids. He's like if my kids want to dress up like Moana, I'm stealing their culture, but if they dress up like Elsa, well, they're just proliferating the same mentality of white supremacy. What do I do? You're screwed either way, no matter what you do. Why? Because we've come up with a way to interpret whatever you do as guilty and playing into some kind of plot or something like that.
Speaker 2:I would also throw into this category false information that we continue to put forward without checking. So, look, I'm not a fan of fact-checking, okay, because you and I both know the Gestapo. You know what I mean. The fact-checkers are hilariously biased, which is such an ironic thing that the people that are supposed to help with hey, let's get you information about this so that you can make an educated decision before you post this or send this to somebody else or quote this.
Speaker 2:Fine, but it was all very biased and wrong. Make an educated decision before you post this or send this to somebody else or quote this. Fine, but it was all very biased and wrong. But ultimately, it is a very good thing, before you quote something or take something out of context, to research it a little bit, look into it before you just say, oh, I heard this happen or that happened, especially looking at, I was listening to the. I don't know if it was called the confirmation or what with Pete Hegseth, tim, did you watch any of that? No, he's this guy and it's hilarious. He. Basically you get to sit in front of 50 other government employees while they just grill you about all the things that you did in your past, or a quote that you said or what you wrote in your book oh, is this the new Secretary of Defense guy?
Speaker 1:Yeah, past.
Speaker 2:or a quote that you said, or what you wrote in your book oh, is this the new Secretary of Defense guy? Yeah, yeah, I've seen that and he's awesome, dude, love the guy. I've seen that they're mad at his tattoo that says Deisville is Jerusalem cross and some other stuff.
Speaker 1:The Christian tattoo you talked about yeah, I love it. I mean like I literally I won know what that means either.
Speaker 2:So tattoos are not much to me. Yeah, yeah, but if you want to kill somebody, you can dig up whatever quote you want. You can take it out of context and you can use it to destroy people. And it was funny watching people take this guy and just take quotes out of context and take things out of context to try to frame somebody as an absolute monster. It's really sad. I was like man, this is our culture.
Speaker 2:But perhaps the most important area that I would like to talk about today, tim, is how people do this with the Bible. Yeah, ultimately, what drives me more crazy than anything else is seeing so-called pastors and so-called ministers of the gospel take the word of God and destroy it with how they communicate it and destroy it with how they communicate it, how they prove text, how they use the Bible to manipulate people, manipulate and drive their own agendas. And, man, it's easy to do. I mean, I hate to say it, but you can almost make the Bible say anything if you manipulate it enough. You know what I mean. You can take verses and you can say this clearly means this If you don't take the context of the Bible, the purpose of the Bible, the authority of the Bible, I mean, isn't it amazing to me how many horrible like leftist progressive politicians try to quote the Bible to get people to do things, while they're totally fine murdering babies, right?
Speaker 2:You know what I mean? Like okay, we smell that and we know that's disingenuous, but why does it work? Because there's something about scripture itself that we know is authoritative. There's something there, but what we would like it to do is serve our own agendas instead of God's. This is why Satan quotes scripture to Jesus to tempt him in the desert. Right, matthew 4 is this whole picture of Satan going to Jesus and like, you know what the Bible says, don't you? And Jesus is like shut up. Actually, it says he shows the devil with the words that he's quoting from scripture, that he's missing the fuller context of what's actually there. You are pulling something out of context and you're using it to to literally, um, to literally be satanic. Yeah and uh, it it happens a lot.
Speaker 1:Here's where I go. When you say this with pastors and stuff, yeah, um, I mean we could fit all the pastors we have on staff here in a room and nobody's going to agree a hundred percent with everything they're going to say Uh yeah, pastors, we have on staff here in a room and nobody's going to agree a hundred percent with everything. They're going to say, yeah, everybody's going to have like slightly different takes on certain things.
Speaker 1:Sure, yeah, but if I'm supposed to tell when a pastor is taking stuff out of context or stuff, am I supposed to have some theology degree now, like I'm supposed to know this thing better than the pastor does in order to learn from him, in order to be able to tell when it's false and when it's not?
Speaker 2:Dude, great question, great question. One thing that the Bible gives us with regard to this is in the book of Acts. It talks about these guys called the Bereans who, when Paul would say things, it says they would go and they would study the scriptures to see if what he said was accurate. So I would say this if you hear something that a pastor or someone else says that doesn't sound right, go look up what he said in the Bible. Read, read the context, read some commentaries about it, see, bounce it off. Some other people test it to see if this is in fact true. This is what the Bible is telling us to do is don't just take one person's opinion on something. Check all the facts. Innocent until proven guilty, right. So if somebody says something like okay, maybe that's the case, let's go study, let's go see, but if you study and that's not the case, then don't listen to the person. I think what's hard is that oftentimes we don't really care. If it feels like it fits our agenda and sounds good, we'll just roll with it. Yeah, like I'm not going to check on something that I already feel like I agree with. What I'll check on is when it hits something that I feel like I don't agree with, and that's a good thing and also can be a bad thing, because there's been many times in my life where the Bible has blown up my opinions in a very frustrating way, or a pastor has blown up my perception of a text in a very frustrating way, where I'm like, and then you got to go back Like, dang it, I've been wrong. I've been wrong about this, I've been wrong about this perspective and that perspective. Tim, there's many things I've said, especially just early on, even in some of the podcasts, that I would think about now. I'm like, yeah, I probably wouldn't say it that way. I don't know if I'd communicate this this way. When I first got saved my opinion of the Old Testament and the law and its significance and stuff, and I was like I'd go back now. I'd just I'd probably tell that guy, hey, buddy, close, but there's a little more here. Uh, you know, keep, keep working, and it's.
Speaker 2:And there's a difference between, um, you know, let's say, lying intentionally or being manipulative, and and accidentally lying right. One is intentional, one is accidental. If you tell your wife, um, hey, I think your shoes are under the bed and actually they were under the dresser, she could be like my husband is a liar. No, no, could it be that your pastor misspoke when he said something? Sure, those things can happen.
Speaker 2:Again, we're judging ultimately the heart of something. What was this person trying to accomplish? Did their words and what they communicated match their heart's intent? How are we judging those things? And so what I would say, tim, is yeah, be a Berean, you should study your Bible. Two, understand the areas where there is margin or areas where we can discuss further and think through some things that maybe need more time to develop and consider and work through. And then also consider the fact that there are a lot of people who have written on these things, and if you hit something and you're not sure, you don't have to study that alone. I would say talk to the person who said it, get more information from them and then talk to a couple people that you really trust, that love the word and know the Bible.
Speaker 2:And it's good I've said this on the podcast before it's good to read people that disagree with you. It's a good thing to do. I'm a Calvinist. Unapologetically, I got three or four books by guys who absolutely hate Calvinists All of David Hunt's work and Leighton Flowers and whatever books I can get my hands on by guys that disagree. Great why? Because you know what they're, my brothers in Christ, and I don't have to agree with everything that they say. It's good to read people that have different perspectives than you do. They're wrong, but that's okay.
Speaker 1:I think Christians do what you were talking about, with half-truths, gossiping, where people will just repeat a headline that they read and not actually read the article themselves. I think Christians do that too, where they quote some theologian who's been dead for 300 years but, not have no idea anything else beyond that, because he read a book once and he agreed with it. You know what I mean. Like they're just repeating what they read, and not from any other deep sense of who where it's coming from.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just proliferating like ideas without any bedrock underneath it. Yeah, yeah, and I'd say all of us are guilty of that at some level. Yeah, because you're finite, right, you can't have every bit of information about everything, but it's so fun when you talk to guys who do have a wealth of information and depth in a particular area. Man, they can just go there. Like watching Wes Huff on Joe Rogan the other day was so fun. He's like you know, you hear lies about people, what their thoughts are on the, on the canon and textual critics and different stuff. And then having somebody who spent literally his life work is that and just go ahead, ask the questions and let me just kill those in front of you right now. So fun to see.
Speaker 2:And as pastors, it's weird because you're trying to be a generalist and a specialist. You got to be able to talk to everybody and you got to be able to talk to a plumber. You got to be able to talk to a politician. You got to be able to talk to you know media, whatever. You got to be able to talk to different people in different places of life, understand some of where they're at and be able to help, pour into them, coach, encourage and pastor those people in whatever place they are in life.
Speaker 2:And what's going on? Why? Because God has something to say to each of those people. The Bible has something valuable to give and communicate to each of those people from an authoritative place, and you, as a pastor, need to be a medium for that. However, you need to be a specialist with the Bible itself and scripture and church history and the things that go along with communicating the word of God. So you're always in the tension between how do I communicate somebody to somebody who is in a world where this is their specialty? How am I to be the bridge? How can I cross that bridge? How?
Speaker 1:can I?
Speaker 2:be a communicator of the word of God where I'm being authentic and not going too far. This is where you get into some of the difficulty with methodology and church in general, like how far should you go to communicate to somebody within their own world without lowering the standard of God's holiness or bastardizing?
Speaker 1:the gospel? I was actually trying to bring that up too. Is that when you have somebody with, well, this is, I guess, kind of for you as a pastor, but when somebody has just a different perspective than what is being preached and doesn't feel right or something, right yeah, but they can't bring it up without being shamed or shunned or yeah. Yeah, yeah, like, how do you deal with that?
Speaker 2:What I have found, Tim, is that people usually feel that way, haven't talked to the pastor. They usually just feel that way in the congregation.
Speaker 1:In the congregation.
Speaker 2:yeah, and I would say the best thing that person can do is actually sit down with a pastor, because you find that the pastor actually wants to communicate with you, talk with you, help you work through those doubts, and behind closed doors, that's a lot of what the pastor is doing is helping you work through all the stuff where you're not there yet. And what makes it really hard for people to work through all the areas where they're not there yet is if they believe that everyone else in that congregation totally agrees and is on the same page about everything. Some people feel alone, tim, because they're trying, they're, let's say, they're being more honest about where they're at than others. That's not a bad thing. Ultimately, it is a bad thing if you don't do anything with it. Carl Jung, for what it's worth.
Speaker 2:I was just talking to a pastor about this the other day. He wrote about and I think it's called the Shadow man, His whole bit on this gosh. It was this idea that everybody has this, let's say, area of themselves that's dark and frustrating or in doubt or in turmoil, and if you don't confront that thing, it comes out in really awful ways and I need to like go, and we're talking about truth telling here. So I'm like I should go get some reference points for this one specifically, but I think the idea will at least you'll understand His point was that people are always happy, always smiling, always fine, tend to be like serial killers because they have this really awful way that they're getting out the things that they're not, let's say the darkness that they're dealing with and really unhealthy ways, and then so that they can continue to always show this easy, chill, super nice demeanor they're not real people, they're two people. You know what I mean Real people.
Speaker 2:You have doubts you got to work through, you have frustrations, you have concerns and you're trying to get to a place where those things are made right. And what I would tell you is Jesus is saying hey, being a liar isn't that you're not, that you're. You know, let me say it this way being a truth teller doesn't mean you don't have doubts or things you're working through or frustrations that you're unsure about. Being a truth teller means you're willing to bring those things to Jesus to allow him to help straighten those things out or work those things out with you. And I think a lot of people are like well, I don't really want to work through them. I don't actually want answers. I like being in here because if, as long as I have these doubts or these areas where I'm not sure I'm allowed to work in the gray, I can still get away with the sin. I can still kind of do this thing because I'm undecided.
Speaker 2:Most of that indecision comes out then as a frustration with God or his people, because it's convenient to blame other people for being the reason that you aren't confronting the lies in your life. Right truth and he is, he is the way, the truth and the life, and Satan is the father of lies. Then the lies that you're dealing with are really going to want to hide and hate the truth that Jesus represents. The greatest analogy of this throughout all of scripture is the light and the dark. You see this? I mean it's just all these illustrations throughout scripture about light and dark, righteousness and wickedness. They're supposed to be these two things that are happening. Yeah, and John? The Gospel of John makes it really clear that the light has come into the world and men love darkness rather than light. What does that mean? I would rather not expose to people what's actually going on in my heart, lest they find out that I'm manipulating and I'm a terrible person. Yeah, when truth comes into a situation, liars really hate. It really throws a wrench in their plans.
Speaker 1:I find that they either get really angry or they accept it. Yeah, yeah, I would they get angry and defensive and everything, or they're like huh, okay, maybe I'll actually think this and I would say anger and defense is just ultimately hiding.
Speaker 2:Yeah, acceptance is is maybe closer to like submission, right, like okay, I was exposed, I got to do better, I got to change, I got to do better, I got to change, I got to do this and it what's what scripture is calling us to do is, hey, meet with Jesus and get that taken care of before you get exposed. Yeah, meet with Jesus and get this right before it has to be something awful, I think it's tip first Timothy.
Speaker 1:It says live without excuse.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I take that a lot in my daily life. Yeah, yeah, and I take that a lot in my daily life.
Speaker 2:Well, what I love in 1 Timothy in particular I think it's 1 Timothy 1.5, it says the goal of our instruction I take this very seriously as a pastor is love from a pure heart, a clean conscience and a sincere faith. Because there's a tension, Tim, where ministry, in the worst sense, can feel like an MLM. You know what I mean. I have this product that I'm selling and I need to be a really good salesman, and then I got to get two people who will go tell other people and get them to come as well, so I can build this giant pyramid scheme. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Like there's a tension there and there's a sense in which it's like okay, god has given us these principles, he's told us to go bring the gospel to people he's called us to invite. Well, so what does dark do? Well, it counterfeits the light and uses that kind of strategy that God has for the wrong things instead of the right things. So it's more like guns in the hands of good people versus guns in the hands of bad people. It's less the method, it's more of the reason or the end game for the method. But if you're devoid of love from a clear conscience, a pure heart and a sincere faith, you can become a manipulator, and you can become a world-class manipulator. You can be a pastor who's seemingly a good person, who also happens to be doing shots with Justin Bieber and cheating on his wife. All right, shots fired, deal with it.
Speaker 1:I mean, I'll confess I've used my position at work, not here, but just in general, because people view me a certain way and I know way, yeah, and I know that Yep, which allows me to get away with things that I should have no business getting away with.
Speaker 2:Sure, and I know that sometimes yeah, and you're aware of that, right, I am aware of that, yeah, and I think Jesus would say to anybody who's dealing with that come to me Right, come to me, let's get that taken care of, let's make this right and ultimately, tim, the way that the Bible spells this out, or the antidote for bearing false witness is repentance.
Speaker 2:It is bringing stuff to Jesus and it's like this is the. I brought this up before Tim either, and I think it was Matt Chandler who originally said this, and I don't know how many years ago it was Probably 10 years ago. I remember hearing this and it changed the way that I thought about how I wanted to walk, how I wanted to do life. But he said you can either make repentance and confession a normal part of your life or you can be a liar. Wow, and I remember thinking, okay, that's the clearest that I've heard anybody just come right out and say that Either you're going to bring your stuff to Jesus, work through it and get that right, or you're going to walk around in church and pretend that it's been made right instead and it's not a substitute at all and what you'll find is that you eventually enjoy being accepted. You enjoy being accepted as a Christian more than you enjoy loving Jesus, and that's not a substitute Like that is not better.
Speaker 1:It's just more comfortable in the moment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and eventually, man, it will go badly for you because Jesus loves you too much to leave you in that place. That's cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, before we wrap up, when you were talking about the gray people who live in the gray, yeah. I heard this thing and it was about, you know, people who sit on the fence. We hear that a lot as Christians or the lukewarm Christians that get spat out Right Well, I heard this story and I don't know if it's true or it was a dream or vision, or whatever. But this guy said he had a dream. Let's go with that. Yeah, no-transcript. Sit on this fence.
Speaker 1:that way I could have both worlds yeah and he said the lights went out and then satan appeared. He says, well, hey, I didn't choose, I didn't choose you, I didn't choose god. So what didn't choose God? So what are you doing here and just saying it's like I own the fence?
Speaker 2:Oh man, that's so good. That's so good. That got me a little bit. Indecision is decision. It's like right Interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I own the fence. Indecision is decision.
Speaker 2:That's fantastic, man. Yeah, ultimately, agnosticism, you know. What I mean is this idea that that, like, we can't really know, so I'll just, I'll set myself in the middle and if God's going to condemn me for not making himself more clear to me, well, that's his fault. No, it's not.
Speaker 1:You're lying Exactly. Yeah, because I've heard that and it's always scared me too. Am I on the fence on stuff? A lot, probably, but it's because I haven't figured stuff out, but yeah.
Speaker 2:I would just want to tell people the truth always pays off, because lying does something to you as an individual man. There's, it's, it is a corrupting feeling. It is a horrible life to live and you will find yourself forgetting who you are in the name of becoming what you think you're supposed to be. And if you want like a real life example of this, I would say look no further than like child actors. If you teach somebody when they're a young kid, uh, to to act like other people and wear other people and walk around as other people, and then they wake up and they're alcoholics and drug addicts and everything else, it's like well, well, what happened? Well, the entire time where I'm supposed to be growing in the fullness of who I'm supposed to be and developing who I am, I've spent all that time being somebody else instead. And now I have every identity and whatever coach in the world trying to tell me how to get back to some norm. But the only thing that makes me feel normal is living in an alternate reality. What does that? Drugs and lying puts you in an alter why? Cause I'm no longer okay with reality. It's not good for me, and so everybody's finding the the way to anesthetize and get away from that stuff but ultimately come to the light, come to truth. It's better, it's just better.
Speaker 2:And um, it's probably some guys out there, some girls with you, know porn problems and stuff and you don't want to tell your spouse about that. Man, start now. It only gets worse. There's people out there, probably with you know you've been embezzling money or you got something going on like that. Dude, just come clean, like come to the light, get the weight off your chest, breathe deep and if you come to Jesus with those things and you make repentance and confession a regular part of your life, you're going to be a whole lot happier and you're not going to be walking in a place where the ninth commandment is just breathing down your neck.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know. Mark Twain had a quote I always liked. He said if you always tell the truth, you never have to remember anything.
Speaker 2:You don't have to remember any lies anyways, it's definitely you're still going to need to remember some things. But yeah, you're not going to carry around that that guilty conscience and have to remember how to continue to manipulate things. Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or what part of the lie that you have to remember, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, and Tim you, um, you, I brought this up before, but I feel like before I got saved, I didn't know how to hang out with two different groups of friends because I was two different people. It was like I don't know how to act with them or them. So I got around both of them and I was just quiet because I was like I don't really know how to navigate this. If you're doing what you're supposed to be doing, you could be around anybody and you're going to be the same person. I'm not saying you're going to share all the same details. I talked to my wife, probably a little bit differently than the president. You know what I mean, but the the the reality that if you're doing it right, you can be who you actually are, around anybody, and that would be evidence that you're you're walking in the light, as he is in the light. Cool, all right, buddy.
Speaker 1:Well.
