Navigate Podcast
Welcome to Navigate, we are two long term friends doing life and ministry together. I got tired of the same ole answers when I started looking for help when it came to my walk with God. So together we go deeper than most would on topics that most people have heard or were taught but never fully understood. It is our way of simplifying concepts that we may have over complicated throughout our lives. Bringing theology and life experience into each episode. It is our hope and desire to help Navigate your Christian walk with you
Navigate Podcast
Navigate the Call: Ministry, Pain, and Purpose
Tjbhpodcast@gmail.com
The conversation begins with vulnerable stories of each man's journey into ministry—paths marked by uncertainty, divine intervention, and unexpected turns. AJ shares how he abandoned his dream of becoming a comedian after God spoke through dreams, leading him instead to youth ministry. Justin recounts how his initial skepticism of church drove him to create something "authentic," only to discover God had been preparing him for ministry all along through a powerful vision.
Most striking is their unified testimony that ministry success isn't measured by growth, acclaim, or visible fruit. "How do you know you're called to this?" one asks. The answer comes with striking simplicity: "Because I'm still here." True calling persists through disappointment, through seasons where nothing works, through criticism and doubt.
Perhaps most poignant is their discussion of Amy Carmichael's poem "No Scar," which captures the essence of authentic ministry: "Hast thou no wound, no scar? Yet as the Master shall the servant be." The wounds acquired in faithful service aren't failures—they're evidence of having followed Jesus into the battle.
Whether you're questioning your own calling or simply seeking to understand the hidden realities of ministry life, this conversation offers both challenge and comfort: count the cost, prepare for pain, but know that in that painful obedience, you'll discover a joy that makes every scar worthwhile.
guys, welcome back to navigate.
Speaker 2:I'm with justin I'm here, my man he's here, and we have another one.
Speaker 1:We got that aj.
Speaker 2:Hey, he's back yeah, the presence of, of, of pure youth and punk rock come on is in the presence of, is part of the podcast yeah, it's haunting. It is haunting, this episode.
Speaker 3:It's about to get real edgy, you guys.
Speaker 1:Real edgy. It's about to get real. One of those things is true. I'll let you guys decide which one Real or edgy.
Speaker 2:It's like Billy Corgan got saved and became a youth pastor that now runs a campus. It's awesome, it'd be sweet, that's true.
Speaker 3:I think they would show up to that. It's like hey, do you guys want to see an ex-smashing pumpkin? Instead of smashing pumpkins, it's smashing Satan Nice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, smashing, tell me your homeschool without telling me your homeschool. With that line, honestly, I want to say more, but I will say less.
Speaker 1:We actually brought AJ up. Last podcast with Bo, we were talking about singles. Yeah, we were mentioning how every time we have Bo on, we seem to talk about dating and AJ always seems to come on when we talk about family, because you did the Honor your Mother and Father one with us. Yeah, that was fun the last time. Today I don't think we're going to talk about families, so this could be interesting.
Speaker 2:I have nothing to say this is it pal, this is it.
Speaker 3:If we talk about the economy or something, I'll be like I don't know. I don't know what we're talking about.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry, same here. If we talk about the economy, all of us are probably going to be a little bit left behind on that. Well, I'll just say what I do know is I think money is good. Not having money, that's bad. That's bad, that's bad. Gary North is great on this subject.
Speaker 1:And I would just say everyone listen.
Speaker 2:Austrian economics, that's the way to go. I read Wealth of Nations once. It was cool. Don't care, I haven't moved much past that and I probably should. You know, now that we're talking about this, I'm like, okay, maybe I need to go plumb the depths on this and get after it. We did an episode on money, didn't we, I think?
Speaker 1:we did.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:One Really.
Speaker 2:One.
Speaker 3:Oh man.
Speaker 2:Maybe we did. I think we did two, I don't remember. Anyways, what the heck are we talking about, bro Real?
Speaker 1:ascent. You know, this just came to me, so we're going to just assume God did as we do everything.
Speaker 2:So shall it be written so let it be done.
Speaker 1:You guys have been doing ministry full-time for years now, so I'm curious Silence.
Speaker 2:How do you oh gosh?
Speaker 1:Let me start with some just basic questions for you guys, if you don't mind me asking.
Speaker 2:Okay, first one how did you know I will not go out with you, not after the last time I'm never going to stop asking, so just get over it.
Speaker 1:Good, no, how did you know when god had that calling in your life to become what you are now?
Speaker 2:oh aj go ahead.
Speaker 3:Okay, uh, for me I I really thought for years the call of my life was to be in entertainment. I wanted to be a comedian and even when I really got serious about God, like right after high school, I thought that was me. Being obedient to the Lord was to pursue that. So everything I was doing was in light of pursuing that. And that came about because of we would go to camps and stuff and people would—I didn't even have the language of prophecy, but people would speak in my life and they would say God's going to use you in ways of bringing joy and laughter and stuff. And I'm like, yes, that's right, I'm going to be like Chris Farley, that's what I want to be. And so when I'm really pursuing the Lord and still have that in my heart, to do it out of obedience and do it because it's like, yeah, that's who I was created to be.
Speaker 3:And as my wife and I got together and I realized that was not in her heart at all, was to marry somebody, that was going to be an entertainment, that there was that. Now what do I do? I think I'm supposed to marry this girl, but she doesn't want to follow me in this dream I have. And so it took the Lord to give me a series of actual dreams I had in the night that informed me and that's a long story, but these dreams informed me that I was supposed to marry Adriel and not. I was supposed to actually give up on this dream and I thought I was betraying the Lord. But as I had submitted these things to my pastor and he was like I think actually what God's trying to tell you is that you can trust him and you should pursue this thing that he's put in your life, which is your wife.
Speaker 3:So, as I did that and I'm like there was like three or four months where it just felt like a death to me, where it was like I don't know what I'm supposed to do with my life Other than I'm supposed to marry this girl and I'm a loser, where it was like I don't know what I'm supposed to do with my life Other than I'm supposed to marry this girl and I'm a loser. I don't know how to do anything. I don't know. I'm not smart, I don't know. There's nothing I'm passionate about except for making people laugh. That's the only thing that I care about.
Speaker 2:Can I throw something out? Yeah, I feel like you have a crazy high IQ, for the record, like it's. You're actually incredibly intelligent.
Speaker 3:Well, I know that now, but at the time, like because then years later still feeling this low self-worth thing, so I'm telling you this is how I felt then. I don't have that self-worth thing now. Yeah, I mean, maybe I do, and then the Lord's always, he's always beating that out of me, like you, like you yourself as a son.
Speaker 2:I just think people think the funny guy is not smart and I think it's a hundred percent wrong, like most guys that are comedians are incredibly intelligent, but as a kid I'm thinking well, I'm so stupid. Everybody just laughs at me.
Speaker 3:And then when I actually I went and got my IQ test and tested.
Speaker 2:Did you really?
Speaker 3:Yeah, cause I thought I had autism. I got a touch of the autism.
Speaker 3:I thought I did, I read, I read an article about people on the spectrum and I was like I am on the spectrum, that's what's happening. So I went and I went and did tons of tests and they said so there's like seven forms of ADD. You have five of them and you you have incredibly slow processing. Your processing skills are that of like a middle school boy, and so it's like below, below average. But then when we took the IQ, everything with the IQ, it's like your IQ is above its genius level and so I do have like very, very high IQ. But then I'm thinking that and then I'm so offended at God even in that time, this is like 2015.
Speaker 2:I'm so offended. It's like saying you have the athletic ability of Shaquille O'Neal in the body of like.
Speaker 3:Of Steve.
Speaker 2:DeVito, you know.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I'm like great. So the Lord gave me this and there's no way I can use it and there's no context I'm ever going to be able to use it Again. This is how I'm feeling as a young man at 20 years old that I'm thinking God gave me this ability and he's telling me I can't use it. And okay, so what do I do? And I'm feeling terrible about myself. And then we go to this camp and when we're at the camp the same one we brought the kids to from Brave we brought the kids and I told them this is the same room. It was like right here I got the call of God in my life because the past, like I, was just so passionate for worship. And the pastor gives me the mic. I said we need to encourage kids to worship. They're like they're falling asleep, they're not doing it and he's like he gives me the mic and I just start pouring my heart out, like we're going to worship God. And in this time I'm like this is who I am.
Speaker 2:I ministered for 45 minutes or so you found who you were, and it was like, yes, this is what I'm called to do, is that?
Speaker 3:And I remember ministering. And then I went and got on the floor, just face before the Lord, you know, just on my face, just like my face was like, just like I got up and it was carpet marks all over my face and just like I know who I am, like totally got up, a totally changed person, like I'm going to spend the rest of my life pursuing, like teenagers, for Jesus. And so even now, when it's like, yeah, but that's not totally what you're doing, you're not a youth pastor, it's just like it's people for Jesus, I guess I don't know.
Speaker 2:Spiritual children, yeah, spiritual children.
Speaker 3:Or even, like you know, I'm talking to all these adults in the room, but I still see the teenagers. I see people and I love them. I see teenagers and I immediately get weepy and it's just like come follow Jesus, yeah. So there's something that's still there where it's like, yeah, I can do anything God tells me to do, but you get me around teenagers, and there's something. I'm a very different person.
Speaker 2:That's so funny. So I had to teach chapel this morning for our middle school and high school kids and I was like I hate this, I hate this stuff Like. I'm in the larger room with all the kids and I'm teaching on prudence and I'm like, yeah, it's great. And then there's like a post-session you do with the high school kids and I was like, oh my gosh, I hate high school so much.
Speaker 2:And I was literally thinking about you, aj. I was like he would be over here, like this was the best thing ever and I'm sitting here like I need a cigarette and I don't smoke.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and you've got to find what. When I talk to people that want to be in ministry, it's like what makes you come alive? And they're like I don't know, just like maybe I just start preaching and someday I'll be like pastor Jeff, and it's like you won't make it. You're going to get really offended at God, and the best thing that would happen is if you, if you, if someone beats you up now, if think that you can preach and then at some point, because it's going to be so heavy in your heart, it will kill you and you'll be offended at God. You'll be offended at all the people you tried to lead, and it's like, whenever I see people doing ministry, my heart gets heavy.
Speaker 3:I want to brag on a guy that we have here named Joe Martinez. He's the guy that I wanted to be. He's our kids pastor and I'm like not a lot of people are going to make it. You're going to make it, but watching him get the crap kicked out of him in ministry, it's just like this is part of this, is the way. This is part of it and it actually affirms it in me. Like to him, I'm like you're going to like God's. This is the call in your life. This is the call in your life Just don't give up, and I don't you know.
Speaker 2:Dude, that's it, yeah, that's it Like. To me it's like what's the difference between Judas and Peter? Peter came back, yeah, he kept going until they crucified him upside down and he wasn't going to quit. Like there's something about, like how do you know you're called to this Because I'm still here.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. Sometimes people are like you're doing a good job and sometimes people say you're not doing a good job and I'm like I guess it's irrelevant. It's not like whether I'm good at this or not. I'm called to it and I have to do this, whether we succeed or not. And it's like what happens if you do this and you let people down. That's a possibility.
Speaker 2:But I guess I have to go for Jesus. I have a matrix that I run things through for comments. Tim, I don't know, I feel like we're you're in the middle of a different conversation. I can come back to my story a little bit, but I'm going to throw this in here for the average person.
Speaker 2:So I was talking to somebody about this this morning In my questioning of how things are going, and when somebody brings something up or like you know, you beat yourself up and then you have this, you know this, the Bible, which will just destroy you.
Speaker 2:I kind of run things through that spiral, like for me, okay, this person said this about me. Do I think that about myself? Does the Bible think that's true about me? Right, if the Bible says this, okay, how am I doing compared to the people around me? And where do I think I land on this possibility, if I like we should constantly be running things through a cycle, and I was talking to one of our guys about this, cause he was, he was bringing up. He's like, hey, the other day I told you I was really mad at myself, like like very frustrated, cause I spent more time on my phone than I wanted to. How much time are you spending on your phone? He's like maybe an hour. And I was like, okay, so you're not doing that bad, it could be a lot worse. And he was like, well, why would you minimize something that's bad? And I was like, well, if you came in here like I'm doing awesome.
Speaker 2:I'd be like you know what God says about you, don't you? You know what I mean. Like there's a I've met people. Run where you're at through to get a perspective of where you're actually at, like the you are here in your spiritual walk. Is this combination of what God is saying is true, which is the ultimate lens? That I should run everything through the reality of the world around me and where do I find myself?
Speaker 2:And then ultimately also like my own opinion, and if you're only paying attention to your own opinion, that's a problem. If you're only ever looking at the Bible, you're just going to walk around destroyed 100% of the time. Like I guess, if I'm always measuring myself with me and God, I guess I'm just trash all the time and I never like God. Jesus doesn't even do that. We're supposed to grow in the context of community and so you also want to be taking into consideration what other people are saying.
Speaker 2:So anytime somebody says something about you know me, about this you're doing a good job, you're doing a bad job, or how I feel about myself. Like there should be this spiral of okay, now I'm going to take that, I'm going to run it through other people, I'm going to run it through scripture, I'm going to run it through my own brain and I'm going to start to try to develop where I actually am in this process. And if you only camp on one of those, you're probably not growing yeah, totally or you're going to stall yourself. So just throwing that out there for anybody who's getting those comments. And maybe you're like trying to figure out ministry in your own life and you're like I don't know if I'm good or how's this going.
Speaker 1:Running through the matrix. That's funny. You bring that up because my wife came home one day and brought something up. She's like oh, he thought I was this and I no not at all she got mad and then she asked a couple of other people. They all agreed with me.
Speaker 3:It kind of wrecked her a little bit, but for good, for good, and you know, like James, one talks about that of, like you know, looking at the law, or you know, we look at the word and then, um, the person that that walks away and they forget what they look like walks away and they forget what they look like.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it's. There's so many people that with Christians, you try you, we, as we, so, as we minister, we try to help people and when people don't actually want help, they're like nope, that's not me, and it's just like look, I'm holding you up to the word of God, I'm not trying and this and look this. So my opinion is is just, it's just that it's my opinion, but then I'm going to hold it up to the word of the word of God and I'm going to show you this and someone's like you can tell me that, but I'm like I won't do it.
Speaker 3:You have you have salad in your teeth. Yeah, no no, I don't think so, and it's just like.
Speaker 2:I'm telling you something that's objectively true, right now you smell.
Speaker 3:Okay. Well, I guess you could do that.
Speaker 2:But some people have no brain at all and they don't have any opinions except for other people's opinions of them, and that's equally problematic, right, yeah? But yeah, I just think it's cool hearing your story and hear like, because I think anybody who's in the ministry or working through stuff you're going to hear comments. You're going to be asking whose opinion should I listen to, and the right answer is all of them Like ultimately, God is the final say in all things, but what I found is like God is the backbone, but you're going to need the Christian brothers and sisters around you and your own thoughts to try to put some bones on the fullness of what it means to be you, yeah Well.
Speaker 3:And the Christianese people will say stuff like this, like the only opinion that matters is God's. It's like, ultimately, that's what we have to live by. Right, if the Lord told you to do it, you should do it.
Speaker 2:That's like saying the only thing we should eat is food Right. What kind.
Speaker 3:Yeah, totally. And then it's like pay attention, because if you're not good at communicating and people are like I don't, like when you communicate, all I think you're bad at this and you're like their opinion doesn't matter, only God's does. And those guys always have tiny ministries or they flunk out and they say it's the people, the God. You know, god wanted me to do this, but the people are against me. It's like no, jesus grew in favor with God and with men.
Speaker 3:Yeah, sounds like you quit. Yeah, sounds like you quit and you weren't able to like learn like we do, but we absolutely have to learn. So if someone's like I'm called to be in ministry, god told me so and then someone's like yep, and you need to dress differently, or you need to learn how to communicate, you need to learn how to serve, and they're like they can't tell me what to do. God told me to do this. Those people never make it. Or they church hop and tell somebody oh man, people will call and be like can I start a ministry at your church? I'm like I don't even never met you before. Do you go to this church?
Speaker 2:They're like no, but I'll mentor you on why I should be here.
Speaker 3:How many times have you had that happen in your career? Like if you had to guess, like.
Speaker 2:Since I started leading ministries, I mean, I would say hundreds yeah. One every like month or three months, some seasons it's two or three times a week, yeah, and some seasons it's like twice a month.
Speaker 3:Best ministry idea that's ever been floated by you. That you're like if we had a joke church, if our church was just comedy, I would say, yes, I had somebody come and was like shaking angry that we didn't have a ministry for overweight people Dude.
Speaker 2:I were like they're like like shaking angry, like you don't care about and I I'm trying to say this in nice ways, so I'm going to be careful here but like the so angry that we didn't care about the fatties.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean I was trying, that was trying, I mean my response would have been like you don't even have.
Speaker 3:We're gonna do a small group at golden crab. I had a nicer.
Speaker 2:I had a nicer person come up with the same thing once and they're like I would really like to do like a, like a small group, like couch to 5k kind of thing, and I was like, okay, that's a better way to do it. I was like, yeah, you should start that. But there's a difference between coming up like I have an idea and somebody like how dare you not accommodate us with some spirit, don't you know? That this is the temple and I'm like you don't look like a temple. This is not on me.
Speaker 1:Well, what about you, Justin? I don't think I actually know what dream you had in life before you got saved.
Speaker 2:Oh man, Before I got saved, I had no dream. I wanted to win.
Speaker 1:AJ was talking about being a comedian and all that. So I'm curious did you have something in mind?
Speaker 2:I wanted to be a firefighter originally. Remember that? Yeah, I wanted to be an EMT, I was planning on getting my EMT and then I was going to be a firefighter and then I ended up in the kitchen instead, which is the strangest. Like I remember looking around thinking how did I get here? And it was kind of awesome, Like I was in the kitchen world like right before all of it started getting really trendy and Food Network just took over. But it was like housewives lost control of Food Network and it slipped into the hands of the entire population. I feel like, is what happened. And suddenly you had Gordon Ramsey's and all these people.
Speaker 1:So I don't know where they have these Tik TOK, famous influencer, cook, chef people that could get millions of dollars a year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a. So it was kind of weird for me, man, like I got saved when I was in the kitchen world and my first thought was, man, I want nothing to do with the church. Because I feel like when I got saved, I was like, well, what I know about the church is they're a bunch of liars and terrible people and none of them are really serious. And I gave my life to Christ and my thought was, well, I'm going to start something. That's the real deal. You know what I mean. And so we started a Bible study with like four guys and it was cool. It turned into like 50 and we were pushing couches away and like trying to stuff a bunch of young people into a room.
Speaker 2:And at some point Timmy I think I've said this before but I realized that if all the people that were represented in that group that we had meeting together represented a category of lukewarm Christian or person that was going to be in a church, then I basically had the same ratios and I was realizing that, oh, you don't have the ability to, um, at least to some level, create the quality of disciple that you want.
Speaker 2:You're not doing something different, You're doing the same thing but acting like you're doing something special, and it kind of kind of hit me. Um, my thought was I'm never going to do full-time ministry, I'm just going to do ministry for the rest of my life, like that's kind of like that was what was happening in my head. And then I got a couple of weird things happened to me. People started telling me around me like dude, this is, you're really good at this man. God's given you the gift of wisdom, god's given you the gift of this or that or whatever. And I was like, okay, cool, thanks. And um, I I gotta remember I got an opportunity to speak at this thing and I had, I think, 25 pages of content and it took me four minutes. It was like my wedding night. You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:Like it was I shouldn't have said that I'm sorry, um and uh.
Speaker 2:You know, it was like stuff like that, where I was like, and I had those moments where I was like this is not for me, I shouldn't. Uh, you know, it was like stuff like that where I was like and I had those moments where I was like this is not for me, I shouldn't do that, you know. And what am I even doing? Blah, blah, blah. Um. But then I had a. I had a legit vision. I'm not going to lie, like, like every. I'll just lost every cessationist that listens to the show, probably.
Speaker 3:But hear me, out, I think the most vivid, crazy.
Speaker 2:Like the closest thing I could give an example to it is a daydream, but it was not a daydream Like I was in it and I had this picture of me and I was at a pulpit and I was teaching on Jeremiah, verse 20 or chapter 20. And I remember it was like 9 through 11, like that classic passage that everybody talks about and I was watching people filling the pews and it was like it was a room that kept getting bigger and the rows kept going farther and farther and farther back. And I remember staring like what is this? And it vanished in front of my face and I heard God say pretty darn clearly preach the word, make disciples, love your family. And it was like okay, whatever that means. Like I have that you know that whole thing in detail written out in some journal somewhere you know what I mean In a box and you know in a storage closet or something. But it was pretty crazy.
Speaker 2:Man, when I got saved, my first thought was I'm going to study, I'm not going to be part of the church, I'm going to do ministry for the rest of my life, but I'm going to do it on the side to shove it in the face of those lying pastors who suck and don't know what they're actually doing. And God just humbled me really fast by showing me that, man, I don't know what I'm talking about. I desperately need all of those people. Yeah, there's a lot of liars out there, but there's a lot of solid men who are working hard to figure this stuff out, like you are. And so that, um, that that vision kind of solidified some stuff for me. Man, some crazy stuff happened in my life. After that I had a couple other people confirm some stuff, but after that it was basically like okay, well, I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing and if it really is from God, then he's going to put me there. I'm not going to have to change much of what I'm doing, cause I'm already studying, I'm already reading, I'm already teaching, I'm already leading, I'm already serving. Um, eventually it just went from like buckshot, where I was doing everything that I could possibly get my hands on, to I'm primarily doing teaching and coaching and developing roles for the people that I'm around. And I was doing that in kitchens too, like it didn't change really what I was doing, just kind of the Avenue in which I was deploying those gifts and um, eventually, uh, stepped into a spot where I was able to do it full time. And then it's just kind of grown from there, man. But yeah, it was, uh, it was, um, it was a passion that God lit in my heart with an, with an indeterminate way that things are going to happen. And then I feel like I had a legit vision and a kind of a I would say as close to audible as I can imagine kind of spoken to me just three things, and I've been I wrote that on my wall for the longest. That was on my wall for like four years was yeah, yeah, yeah, had that stuff set up and I've been pursuing that ever since.
Speaker 2:I am a firm believer that if God has a will for your life, you just keep being faithful in the things that he's called you to do and then he'll create the road and the place in which he wants you to do it. And if you throw yourself out early and like, oh, I have to do this, so I got to go to this place or got to go to that thing, I actually think it's the wrong way. You just keep being faithful, work on you and what God has called you to do, and I think he makes that Red Sea Road for anybody who's willing to be faithful. And I mean, it's such a silly thing to say to him because I got to be straight. And, aj, I know this is the same for you too. I say that and it's like, yeah, it all just happened.
Speaker 2:There was so much pain in that process that I almost can't even describe to you how many punches you got to take, not only for yourself, but because of all the people that you're trying to pour into and help along the way, that it feels like dying man. Um, but if you knew, if you knew that that's the only way that you can really live. Like, yeah, but if I don't do this, I'm not being true to what I know I'm supposed to do. Um, you know what I mean. Like, there's that. There's just that tension there. I don't know how to explain it, but anybody who's been in that spot where they know this is what I'm supposed to do, knows what it's like to experience the pain of staying in that spot, even even when it hurts. And if you quit, shame on you. Yeah, shame on you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, okay. So, as you're saying that, share these verses because Adrian and I wanted to give up so early in our ministry, and anybody maybe. This is a good like if you're going to come up with a title. It's like aspiring ministers, just like anybody that wants to be at making ministry, because you need to hear these real stories. That it's. It's really. It's glorious when it's glorious, but for the most part it's mundane and painful and uh and and it doesn't make any sense. Like most of the stuff that happens doesn't make any sense. It makes sense in retrospect.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it helps you, it helps you on, like we've been doing it now full time since 2009. So what is that? 16 years and then, but even before that, like you know, then it was like two years of just like pursuing so all these years and it's just like I can maybe foresee things better now, but the way I foresee it now is like what's going to happen next? It's like we have no idea. It'll be fine, it'll be fine, but like, instead of being like, predict the next few years as like, oh no clue, pastor on the moon or something. Okay. So this verse, the day I wanted to quit probably one of the harshest times of wanting to quit and I went away to go call my mentor and then my wife sat in the car because we were in Green Bay, wisconsin. We were at a restaurant in Oshkosh.
Speaker 2:That was your first mistake was living in Green Bay.
Speaker 3:Living in Green Bay was like the Lord's way of being, like I'm going to take you away from everything you know and people are not going to think you're funny at all.
Speaker 2:Your one gift that you have people didn't laugh at all, so I'd get out there and tell jokes and nobody would laugh.
Speaker 3:And my little brother said that's actually the funniest thing. It's like at the end of Seinfeld when Seinfeld's up there telling jokes in prison, they're like we're going to kill you, he's like, that's what it's like, and I was like, that's exactly what it's like.
Speaker 3:It was just dude, nothing worked for us. And so, okay, my mentor tells me these verses and then Adri, the Lord, speaks it to my wife in the car. It's Ecclesiastes 11, starting in verse 3. If the clouds are full, they pour out rain upon the earth, and whether a tree falls toward the south or toward the north, wherever the tree falls, there it lies. He who watches the wind will not sow, and he who looks at the clouds will not reap. Just as you do not know the path of the wind and how bones are formed in the womb of the pregnant woman, so you do not know how the activity of God, who makes all things. So you're seed in the morning and do not be idle in the evening, for you do not know whether morning or evening sowing will succeed, or whether both of them alike will be good.
Speaker 2:Man, that's so good.
Speaker 3:If you're going to be in ministry, you have to be convinced. God called you to do it and you do it. And it's like but nothing works. And it's like yep, and it's like yep, and it's like and I might die in this, it's like yep. There's no promise of success. There's no the. Your reward is the lord, and that's it. And it's like but what if the people don't respond? They don't like me. That I mean. As cruel as it sounds. It's like what if that's the will of god for you? What?
Speaker 2:if that's the plan yeah, what if god?
Speaker 3:if god required it of you, would you give it to him? If you knew that, like he was proud of you, he was, was happy with you. Dude, that's it. And if you don't, if someone's like, no, I got to have this, it's like you're not going to make it because you are going to look at the wind. You're going to try to, you're going to try to judge this. Is it working at night?
Speaker 2:Is it working? In the morning, you will judge whether or not you're being obedient by what other people are doing around you and that kill the calling on your life is judging faithfulness by whether or not you think it's working.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and there's the seasons where it's like working and you're like this is great, this is great and it's like you're being set up for a huge fault, because, as soon as it stops, as people stop telling you that they like you, your funds dry up.
Speaker 3:Like for me, dude, miracles is a big thing. Like I want to pray for miracles, so we're seeing miracles. Pray for miracles, so we're seeing miracles. My personal life is a mess inside of myself, hate myself, but I'm praying and seeing miracles happen and so I assume this is God saying this is okay. And then, as those things dry up, and then I lose my ministry and then I'm still praying for people. I'm working at King Soopers praying for people in the store. People are getting healed. At King Soopers, praying for people in the store. People are getting healed. I'm thinking, see, god affirms me. It's okay for me to hate myself, it's okay for me to have a secret life that my wife doesn't know about. All these things are okay. And then, as all those things dry up and it's just like I have nothing to give. Like this is me at my low point in like 2017, 2018. I have nothing to give the world and the Lord's like, and I because it's not about that, it's because I love you Like just dude that's all Dude.
Speaker 2:Now I want to live there. But like the the whole, like where, where these jars of clay like that are like you know, we're broken, we're cracked, we leak. Those moments where God meets you and I was like it's me, yeah, it's me, and, and, and you have these moments. You're like, you're right, it's you, I don't care, I just want your, I just want to be with you, I just want to. But but then, like we're not meant to sit at the feet of Jesus for the rest of our life, he sends us out, and then we're like and then we start trying to measure success again by the things around it and it it can be exhausting, but like that, what you're saying is a hundred percent right. If you're doing this, for what it's going to produce, oh my.
Speaker 3:It'll be, it'll be disappointing, but if you, if you're like this jar that's like I will be continually filled and I will continually pour it out. I will pour everything out and it's like what? What happens if they don't appreciate you? It's not about them, it's not even about me. I like the picture of the rag.
Speaker 2:Because to me it's more like being wrung out you know Like there's days where it feels like is there anything left in there? Yep, we got more.
Speaker 3:You know, God's like, I'm going to get it out of you. And then you get thrown in the water.
Speaker 2:You're like thank God, I'm alive again.
Speaker 3:I'm going to bring you out again. I was telling you yesterday I was First time in months to me, and when did you feel that strength come back? In pursuit of the Lord.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you left your environment, went somewhere else, started praying. God was like what's up? Yeah, oh yeah, we're friends.
Speaker 3:Yes, and it felt so good, like I was telling Tim and some of the other ministers and stuff on our staff here. It's like I'm pouring out but I don't feel like I have anything left. And and God has been faithful every week. But I'm like I, you know, I go to seek the Lord. I don't feel like I have anything. And even in those times where it's just like but what do you do? It's just like you just keep letting yourself be wrung out.
Speaker 3:And if the Lord says, now I'm done with you, then you could say, great, now I can be done with ministry and do something else. But until then, if he's like I'm going to ring you up, there's nothing left, and it's just like then you're going to be faithful to fill me, you're going to be faithful to do these things. And what happens if we pray and no one receives Christ? What happens if we pray and everyone? Or what happens if we go up and do ministry and they say we don't even like your church anymore and we leave? So what? And until you come to that place of so what, I will do it. No matter what the cost, you can do ministry. There's a danger, though.
Speaker 1:Like what if you are wrong?
Speaker 2:Well, there's a tension here.
Speaker 1:God's like I didn't call you to this. You've just been doing your own thing.
Speaker 2:Let me bring you back to the matrix I was talking to you about. Okay, you'll run it through this process of like what has God said? What do I know? What do the people around me communicate? Don't lean on any one of those. As the, let's say, is the only source for communication. And I keep saying this and I'm trying to be careful because I don't want anybody to hear me say people and yourself are on an equal playing field with the Word of God 100% not. I'm saying that the Bible is the spine. And then your own walk and relationship with God and how that's playing out, and then your interaction with the body of Christ and the world around you then helps flesh out what that functionally looks like.
Speaker 2:And if you look at who the elders became in scripture, it's like Paul grabs all these people, start hanging out together, working together, and there's just some people who rose to the top. It's like, yeah, dude, this is you Like. Why did he pick Timothy? You ever asked this question? I mean, maybe you guys haven't asked, but it literally says he was well-known among the people in Lystra, like he was just. I think it was Lystra, it might have been Iconium. But he basically says, like all these people. He was just well-known, he was a dude who was, he was a good guy.
Speaker 2:And Paul is like, hey, you're coming with me, and I think so, this matrix of like, what are the thoughts, uniquely, that God has put in my own heart? What has God confirmed to me in his word and what have I seen from the people of God that I trust? And then, if you have those three things, it doesn't really matter where you're going after that, because the confirmation of the call has already happened. So, if you know that's the case, if I know, hey, in front of my face, I had like a screen roll down in front of me and play this vision out. And then it was followed by God telling me these three things that I'm supposed to do with my life.
Speaker 2:And then I have people around me saying dude, I think this is something God's doing. And then, in my own heart, I know I've been wanting to do ministry. I just was demanding not to do it the way that God wanted me to. Okay, well, I have a pretty good confirmation of those things and I'll go do it Now. Here's the thing in the moment, it's not enough. All of that could happen to you. All right, and you're the person who's like well, if that happened to me, then I would definitely be doing it.
Speaker 2:If God came to me in a dream, like AJ Liar, it's no less of a step of faith when you have those things than it is if you don't. If God puts something on your heart and you're supposed to walk it out, it's going to be there. But again, looking through scripture, what you find is the people that were called to thing went through a ton of difficulty, usually before they came into the blessing, and that's usually where people quit. I mean, even if you think about Jesus, he gets baptized. Right, god sends the spirit to confirm. A voice comes from the sky. This is my son, whom I love, of whom I'm well pleased. He's baptized. You know, the sky part is like this is the Messiah. And then what happens? Right to the desert, straight to hell.
Speaker 3:You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Satan's going to now just wreck your life. For the next 40 days You're not going to eat, and if you just play this out in somebody's regular life, okay. So let's say you're called to something that matters. You think you're not going to be tested. You think you're not going to walk through a process where you doubt everything, where you walk through struggle after struggle, where you feel like you're failed and where you feel like I'm empty. I'm empty. I'm empty. Why am I empty? So that you can get filled up, like that's. This is the way, this is the process. We got to wring out of you the crap that needs to go, so that you can begin to be filled with the spirit, instead of whatever it is that you thought you brought.
Speaker 2:And so many people just quit. Man, and I don't mean to be a jerk about it, I just I guess I just want to encourage people Like, if you, if you accept the call from God, then you start taking punches. That's a good sign. Yeah, welcome to the fight, bro. Glad you're here. We need more people that can take punches, not more people that can throw swords. Like swords, great, but I need more. Like we need more shields right now, cause until you can learn how to hold a shield, you shouldn't even swing that sword.
Speaker 2:You know, you're going to need it.
Speaker 1:That's very true.
Speaker 3:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:I hope that at least maybe gives somebody courage.
Speaker 1:I think you're hinting at something that I've figured out for myself, talking about calling ministry, because I've struggled with you know this vocation, all that. Still don't know what the heck's going on with me Vocation. Someday I'll figure it out when I'm dead. But I've come to my consensus of I don't and I gotta be careful with this, because these two guys can literally fire me, so I gotta be careful.
Speaker 2:He's like the pastors that you work for could be totally idiots.
Speaker 3:I work with this guy. He's an idiot.
Speaker 1:There are times, a lot of times. More often than not, I do not like my job. Right, just the routine of my job. Another toilet's leaking, are you serious? I get really frustrated. But what God kind of revealed to me, over the last couple months even, was that that's your job. That's not what you do, yeah. So figure out what you do here and then decide because it was a moment, you know what.
Speaker 2:I mean that's a word, bro. Yeah, it was great, that's so good.
Speaker 1:And what I've come up with is like what I do for our church is I make ministry easier? And I make you guys look better than you actually are.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I say that jokingly almost but not really.
Speaker 2:No, but that's real, it's not a joke.
Speaker 1:It's the truth, because those are things that have been indicted In a lot of ways. You, oh I was a someone you could lean on in the kitchen days.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean. So, Bro, that's such a good word. This is what I'm doing. This is not my ministry. Yeah, the ministry, this is a by-product of the ministry that I do here. These tasks are part of the thing that I'm actually trying to accomplish, not not the sole purpose and you're doing what, what?
Speaker 1:what is it you're doing here? You know, can I?
Speaker 2:tell you from a personal experience, tim, just the same thing from like a different angle. Yep, like so. So I ran um, you know, men's ministry, I think, I don't know. It was like four years of preaching every, uh, friday and I do, you know, mondays and teaching, and I was doing internships. I just teach all the time.
Speaker 2:It's like it's non-stop teaching, which I like. Like my primary gifting is teaching, all right, but I started having this problem like god, is this it? Like I just talk and then people don't change and then we just keep doing it. You know, yeah, there's this like real and that's a lie, because ultimately, all kinds of cool stuff was happening. I just think we can start to believe that the thing we're doing, um, is like the point instead of this is a, this is actually a piece of the larger picture of what is going on in the kingdom. Yeah, and if you stop looking at the bigger picture of fruit that's being produced and things going on, you really can. You can beat the heck out of yourself and talk yourself out of some really important things and even rob people from the things that God wanted to do in their life through you, because you've talked yourself out of it. You know yeah, but yeah, it's such a good word, man.
Speaker 3:Yeah, man, and I think that people should realize, like, like God isn't making not important parts, you know, and like the body of Christ, everything is important and everything has a function. And so sometimes people are like, well, I wish I could do something and be heroic or whatever. But I'm remembering the story Ender's game, um, which you know we named my son, uh, like his middle name is Ender, but like the the he thinks he's just playing a game. I game, I'm going to just spoil it for everybody right now. But he really he's saving the world and they don't know. He doesn't know until after it's over.
Speaker 3:And it's like all that stuff that looked like a test. It was actually you were really winning the war, and he was like he had no idea. And I'm like I think that there's most of the stuff that we're doing that is going to be good and exploits for the Lord, there's going to be maybe not most of it, I don't know, there's got to be a big portion of it that we have no idea that this is what's important and it's just like you mean, what I'm doing right now, this is the thing that matters and the stuff that makes me feel like I'm a hero or going to do something important. That stuff is less important and it's like so just being able to say I'm not going to pay attention to my feelings, I'm going to just do it out of obedience.
Speaker 2:I think about this all the time with the birth of Christ, because they think he was born in these birthing caves for these lambs that would later be sacrificed, which is just mind-blowing to me right off the bat. But thinking about who is the guy, who is the stonemason who broke his back carving out these stupid caves, that thinks that what I'm doing is useless and meaningless and he doesn't realize it's going to later be inhabited by the king of glory himself. Yeah, like literally emmanuel god with us, the hope of the world, is going to be born into this cave and every stroke you know you're making with that pickaxe or whatever you think is just another stroke. It's not like. This is deep magic that you're tapping into here, but you don't see it and you don't get it.
Speaker 2:I think that's that really is what scripture is getting at all the time. I feel like it's just replete with this Like what you do matters, god's using it. It's like it's eternal. Everything you do in Christ is this cataclysmic, beautiful big thing. But you're like. You're like in a. You're like in a simulation you know what I mean when you're playing some. You know you're playing a Tetris or something in real life, but behind the scenes.
Speaker 2:It's actually building kingdom cities and one day you're going to take the VR goggles off and see like oh man, there was more going on here.
Speaker 3:Well, and so that goes to speak of our human experience. It's like, well, why can't God just show us that? It's like there's no way you could understand that these things can only be understood in faith, they can be appraised spiritually. So to the spiritual man like these things, these things make sense. But to the carnal man, these things can, they can only be spiritually appraised.
Speaker 3:So you tell you, tell ministers that kind of stuff too. Do it in faith, do the things that you, that you sense God telling you to do, do it with joy and obedience. I'm you know how will I know, and it's just like, well, they have to be spiritually appraised and a carnal person could never, will never, see what they're doing is important, unless somebody else tells them that was important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think I was thinking about a poem, tim, actually from Amy Carmichael, just thinking about people who are doing ministry and the difficulty and what comes through that and what God's bearing behind the scene, and like every, every little thing mattering, um, and I, I just I'm going to read this to you and I hope it hits you the same way it hit me, cause the first time I read it I think I actually like teared up and probably had some tears, cause I was just thinking about the significance of it. But it's, it's. It's called um, no scar. Is what it's called.
Speaker 2:Has thou no scar, no hidden scar on foot or side or hand? I hear these song is mighty in the land. I hear them hail thy bright ascendant star. Has thou no scar? Has thou no wound? Yet I was wounded by the archer, spent, leaned me against the tree to die and rent by raving beast that encompassed me. I swooned hast thou no wound? No wound, no scar. Yet as the master shall the servant be. And pierced are the feet that follow me, but thine are whole. Can he have followed far? Who has no wound, no scar? I read that poem like this is the way I read that poem? Like ooh, this is the way you know, like if you're going to follow Jesus with his pierced hands and his pierced feet, you better prepare to have blood coming out of your hands and feet as you're following him, and that that is the mark of life. The wounds are evidence that you did something.
Speaker 1:You did something.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, the people with no wounds and no scars are those who never went to war.
Speaker 3:Yeah, right, and Well, and you meet the best Christians. We meet the people that have stories and you talk to them, especially when they have lots of joy and they're and then they tell you about the tragic things that have happened. And it's just like I like I think people always assume they're making this up. They're making up their how, either how bad it was or how happy they are right now. But I'll tell you, the more that I follow Jesus, the more that I realize he's so worth it. And if you keep it, once Jesus becomes your prize, it becomes very much like why aren't you, why aren't you afraid or why aren't you sad about these things? And it's like there's just something greater.
Speaker 3:And if you never come to the Matthew 13, 44 thing, you've never actually sold everything and bought the field. And again, I guess I only speak to ministers in this Like it is true for every Christian. But for people that are like I want to do something great for God, and it's like if you haven't sold the field and it hasn't been great joy, you're going to go back. Yeah, you're going to. You're always going to go back and you're going to be offended at God. And it's uh, and I can't tell you just have more joy. It's like the only way you can have that is you've seen Jesus and all of a sudden it's like it's totally worth it Did.
Speaker 2:I remember one of the worst points in my entire life. All right, Just being honest, it was like I could not hit a lower low. All right, and and I I think we probably hit on this in some other podcasts. I won't go crazy in depth, but I remember saying out loud to God okay, I literally have nothing else to give. Like I don't know what else you want. You win that, there's nothing left.
Speaker 2:And you don't think that's for your joy. In the moment, you don't think like what you think is like how dare you take from me the thing that I hadn't given to you yet I was planning on using that if things went south? And God's like how about I just take all the things that think are keeping you safe or are going to protect you and I show you through this process that actually they're not and I'm the only one that can actually take care of you? That process of pain and frustration and selling the field, or God, yanking the field out from underneath you, you know, is actually for your joy. It's a wonderful end game, but man, does it feel like just having your arm pulled off in the process?
Speaker 3:And it's possible to have great joy and great turmoil, and we see Jesus with that before the cross and saying if there's any other way, but it says that we're the joy set before him. So it's like, well, so which one is it? And it's like I guess it's possible to have great pain and great joy at the same time. And yeah, I'm just telling you as possible. And so, if you're, if you're, if you're, if you're, if you're, if you're, if you're, if you're, if you're, if you're, if you're, if you're, if you're if you're, if that's striking, it's like you will never make it.
Speaker 3:And sometimes I say that and people think I'm being harsh. I'm just saying I've seen too many people washed out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's like there's amazing moments of joy and glory and victory. But ironically, all those moments of joy and victory seem to come from scraping the bottom of the glass of what you have in your own walk, because it's like you have to find out, you have to come to the end of yourself a lot to become a deeper person. It's like if you're, if you're gonna, if the Christian walk, is you digging a well to be filled by the presence of God? You dig it and you think, okay, there's enough water in there. And God's like no man, I got so much more. And what does that mean? You're going to have to empty it out and dig deeper again and again, and again. And when do you tap out and say I finally finished digging? You serve an infinite God, buckle up. But that process is as much of a feeling of joy as it is a labor of drought.
Speaker 3:And wouldn't that be the best way to be on your deathbed? Like if you make it 80 or 90 years to be like I just kept going, instead of like the guy who would stink if somebody had a faithful life and then retired at 70. And it's like and what'd you do? And it's like nothing Fell back into bad habits. It would be like what a waste.
Speaker 3:What a loser it's like this lady that has meant so much to me in my life and you know she's really old right now and that you know no more ministry opportunity, but she's like it was worth it, he was worth it, jesus is worth it and it's just like I want to do this for the rest of my life. I want to be saying the same thing when it's just like there's not like physically I can't do anything. All I can do now is pray until the Lord takes me home. That is the coolest.
Speaker 2:That's it. I have this picture in my head and it will probably not be this cool, but it's like, at the same time, I feel the grip. Leave my hand, I will feel God's grip on me. That's what I'm confident of and when that happens, I'm like yes, yeah, like this, is it? Like that's I? Just that's cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can't wait for that day. Well, thank you guys for joining AJ. Thank you for being here, hey man, I'm always honored to be here with you guys.
Speaker 2:Good, a little bit of an edgy topic today in that it's a little deep, but I also think it's good and probably worth listening to people. We Can I end Tim with a prayer for some peeps? I think it would be good. Father God, I pray for anybody who is wrestling with their own calling today, wrestling with their own ministry. I ask, lord, that this podcast would actually be a line in the sand kind of day for them, and that you would use it as a word to them right now to remind them of your faithfulness, your goodness and the unique call that you have on their life, and that this would propel them forward in faith, to walk out what you've called them to, lord, whatever the cost. I pray that those words hath thou no scar would just be emblazoned in their mind and they would remember, lord, that you gave everything and because of that we get to give everything. Lord, we love you and we thank you in Jesus' name, amen, amen.
