Navigate Podcast
Welcome to Navigate, we are two long term friends doing life and ministry together. I got tired of the same ole answers when I started looking for help when it came to my walk with God. So together we go deeper than most would on topics that most people have heard or were taught but never fully understood. It is our way of simplifying concepts that we may have over complicated throughout our lives. Bringing theology and life experience into each episode. It is our hope and desire to help Navigate your Christian walk with you
Navigate Podcast
Are You Pursuing Blessings or Presence?
tjbhpodcast@gmail.com
What does it mean to have "the Lord's favor" in your life? Is it about prosperity, success, and answered prayers? Or is there something deeper happening when we talk about divine blessing?
In this thought-provoking conversation, we challenge common misconceptions about God's favor by looking at biblical figures like Joseph, Moses, and Job who experienced God's presence through both triumph and suffering. We explore how Satan can offer counterfeit "blessings" that lead us away from God while creating the illusion of divine approval, and why the true mark of favor isn't in outcomes but in presence.
Hey guys, welcome to Navigate. Justin. What's up, dude?
Speaker 2:What is up?
Speaker 1:my brother. We have a Mr Matt with us as well, mj Fresh, how's it going, mj Fresh?
Speaker 2:I've never called him that before I've never been called that before either. Yeah, matthias, matthias. That's also another name that I've thought about in my head calling him, but I haven't said out loud yet.
Speaker 1:I think Matthias sounds better than Matthew.
Speaker 2:Yeah, His pronouns are she her.
Speaker 3:You better not. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, dude, I will hurt you, he's not ready to reveal those yet.
Speaker 1:Okay, I'll hurt you on live recording I now have a pen sticking out of my leg.
Speaker 2:Thank you for that.
Speaker 1:Now, matt, you've joined us on a few episodes now, so glad you're here. Thanks for being here. Don't know how Justin keeps convincing you to do this, but I'm here for it.
Speaker 2:I promise him a Hot Pocket. It shows up every time. It's so weird.
Speaker 1:It doesn't take much.
Speaker 2:I never give him the Hot Pocket.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which flavor though, if you say ham and cheese get out, that's the best flavor, dude get out. No way, I don't know, bro, I just went for it.
Speaker 2:I was like I don't think I've had a Hot.
Speaker 1:Pocket in my life that is the worst one. Is that a thing?
Speaker 2:People still order as Hot Pockets.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Order a Hot Pocket.
Speaker 2:The closest thing to a Hot Pocket that I've had is that really delicious chicken cheese loaf that they sell you at Costco. You know what I mean when you're eating it. Twofer.
Speaker 3:Costco food hacks. That's a food hack.
Speaker 2:It's like four bucks too, I'm telling you you can travel in time if you do that, but you better hope there's a bathroom wherever you travel to.
Speaker 1:Okay, I'm sorry, we're back.
Speaker 2:That's great. Yeah, what do? You got for us.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry we're back, that's great. What do you got for us? I wanted to talk a little bit about the Lord's favor, nice. I feel like when I talk to certain people you can kind of tell when somebody has it Okay. Is that wrong to like think of it in that term, I guess?
Speaker 2:It kind of depends. So like, let me ask you a question, tim. Explain this a little bit more, elaborate more. What do you mean by the Lord's favor?
Speaker 1:The Lord's. It feels like somebody who has been given a gift, accepts it, and then things have been progressing for the betterment of their own life.
Speaker 2:It just seems like it's working out, things are working out better for us. It's like that dude's just he's getting it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like I got this house and I promised to give it to the Lord and now I've got this new raise and this new job and then, like you know what I mean, things just kind of seem to progress for him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay. So there is definitely such a thing in scripture as the anointing of the spirit, like with Joseph, like this classic picture of this guy who is this paradox, because everything goes wrong for him and everything keeps going right. Where it's going wrong, like how is it that a guy who's you know what I mean lied to and thrown into a pit by his brothers who were planning to murder him, gets sold into slavery, does all the right things and everything goes wrong for him and in that process it seems like everything he touches continues to work. You know, there's that kind of anointing where we're like okay, it keeps saying in there, god was with him and I'm going to come back to that in a second All right.
Speaker 2:But there is also this like weird satanic blessing and it's the wrong way to put it, but I'm saying it this way just to kind of explain it to people where I think, if you are serving Satan, I think there's a type of, let's say, advantage that I think the darkness will give you in certain circumstances, Like the whole.
Speaker 2:You know Satan taking Jesus to the mountaintop and is like I'll give you all of this if you just bow your knee to me, Just kneel to me. I actually think he was allowed to. Yeah, I actually think it implies at some level that he had the ability to give to who he wanted some of these kingdoms and some of these places. Now we could get into some of the theology around geography and things like that. I'm not trying to go too deep into the weeds here, but it seems to me that there are people who are empowered by demonic forces, who can also have a type of, let's say, edge to what they do, the jobs they get, how far ahead they get. And I wouldn't want to conflate that with blessing from God, because somebody might be like, oh, it's all working out for me.
Speaker 1:Clearly, god must be okay with what I'm doing. You've talked about this, but called it the wrath of God as well, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, kind of the same thing here.
Speaker 2:I mean it really. If you're serving, I think, satan and running the opposite direction, I think you could find everything working out for you. I really think you could, and it wouldn't at all be what you actually wanted. It would be the wrong direction entirely. Matt thoughts on this.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it is kind of tricky right, and I think I talked about this the first time that we were on the show talking about new age stuff and how that kind of works. But there is ways to that people end up in some sort of a partnership?
Speaker 2:Are we talking about blood magic today? What are we talking about?
Speaker 3:I mean, I guess we're kind of getting there with this area, but there are ways that people, whether whatever their ambitions are, that they can partner with something in the spiritual, and they may or may not be consciously aware of that. I think as Christians we have the ability to like discern that from the Holy Spirit. Hey, that's actually wicked. Oh, this is actually God. Right, that's the unique ability of a Christian to be able to do that. But people who just kind of do the worldly thing will end up in certain avenues and certain paths where it's like, wow, this is awesome.
Speaker 3:All of a sudden I got this perfect job. I just got out of this situation into this situation and it seems to be working out great. And ultimately just got out of this situation, into this situation and it seems to be working out great. And ultimately what's happening is that the enemy is using that person for their agenda and it seems and feels like it's something real good for them in the time and all it reminds me of I'm not sure if you guys have heard of this short story or not it's called the monkey's paw I brought this up on a podcast, did you a few long time ago?
Speaker 3:yeah, the monkey's paw. For any listener who's not aware of it, it's a horror short story WW Jacobs is the name of the author and essentially what happens is that a father gets this monkey's paw that has three fingers held up and you can make a wish off of it. And the problem with it is that you get what you want, but maybe not how you want it. Not how you want it, and if you are ultimately partnering with the wrong things to be able to achieve your end goals, you will end up in a position where you're compromised. At the end of it, you have short-term gain for a long-term judgment from the Lord ultimately yeah.
Speaker 1:How do you prevent that then, as a believer, as a Christian, when you see God's favor in someone's life? So I mean I can't say all good things are from the devil, right?
Speaker 2:Well, this is the picture that I wanted to boil it down to. There are these verses that people misunderstand in Scripture all the time. Where it talks about like a classic one is Psalm 51. Take not your presence from me. Okay, god is omnipresent. What do you mean, david? What do you mean take your? He literally is everywhere. His presence can't go away. Or he'll say things in the Psalms like if I arise on the wings of dawn, there you are. If I make my bed in Sheol, there you are. Where can I go from your presence? Okay, well, what gives? What is he getting at? Or why does it make the point so often in Scripture where it says with Joseph and the Lord was with him. Right, like, of course, god was with him. He's with all of us, he's everywhere.
Speaker 2:There is this clear, ongoing, consistent connection in Scripture with the presence of God and his blessing in scripture, with the presence of God and his blessing and the way that the Bible tends to communicate blessing is like his presence is with them, and when his presence is not with them, it denotes that there's a lack of blessing, like it will literally say at certain parts, and the spirit of God left him, like it just said, like pulled off, like with King Saul, like you're done, spirit of God. Nope, I'm not with you anymore. My presence isn't with you. And we're not talking about God's immutable characteristics changing. And a lot of people want to do this. They're like see, he's not omnipresent. See, now we're all open theists. Don't be freaking weird.
Speaker 2:The Bible is trying to communicate that that God's presence symbolizes rest and blessing and his goodness, like some simple places to go, exodus 33,. My presence will go with you and I will give you rest. Okay, so this promise here is that God's presence literally brings rest and peace to his people. When I'm with you, you have these things. The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want who makes me lie down in green pastures. He leads me besides. So what is he talking about? When God's presence is with me, like everything is going the way that it's supposed to, and even when it's not exactly what I'm hoping for, god's with me and he's in that.
Speaker 2:And then you have verses the other direction, when it's talking about people in hell, like in 1 Thessalonians I think it's chapter 5, he talks about people being away from the presence of God, who are like being destroyed. They're sentenced to destruction. But in Revelation it says that they're burning in hell in the presence of the Lamb. Okay, so we know that God is there. Why is it saying in one verse he's there and in another verse he's not there? Well, because there's connection between the presence of God and the blessing of God. So what is it ultimately saying in this text?
Speaker 2:People who are under God's wrath. It's not that he's not with them, it's that his blessing doesn't go with him. His manifest presence that brings joy and hope and all the amazing grace that God gives to us as those he loves, who are walking in obedience with them, receive the people who are not walking that direction, although his presence is still with them. In a different way, it says that God's wrath abides on them, which is to say, I will never be rid of God, but it will not be his presence that goes with me.
Speaker 2:So whenever we talk about God's blessing on somebody's life, what I want you to think about is God's presence in my life. And so when we're pursuing blessing, we shouldn't be thinking about an outcome, we should be thinking about the person. If I want blessing, then what I actually want is to pursue God's presence. See, because the Bible is actually saying those are the same thing. When I have found the presence of God, I'm actually receiving blessing from God. But if I'm just pursuing blessing, well, I can actually get that from a demon. I can actually find that from Satan. This is why Jesus in the you know, hey, in his temptation right Turn these stones to bread, yeah, satan could do that for you, that's an outcome?
Speaker 1:Actually, I have that question for you, matt. When you did with all the occult stuff, did you have things happen to you that came off as, like this is a blessing? This is why I'm continuing to do this, more so than when you were a Christian.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, you get confirmations one way or the other and it's basically like a carrot that you can never reach.
Speaker 2:You just are constantly reaching out to grab it. You're like, oh, almost had it. It's like that old commercial with the dollar bill and the old man oh you have to be quicker than that.
Speaker 3:It's a lot like that, though, and people are reaching out for it, and I think what you hit on, justin, is really, really important. It's how are we defining what favor is and how are we defining what blessing is? Because, ultimately, like favor where we started is God's acceptance of you in his presence, based off of your understanding and pursuing him, and pursuing his preset and doing what we are able to do in obedience to him. And I think about that because, like Genesis 6, 8, noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord. Well, if you really think about that, because, like Genesis 6, 8, noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord Well, if you really think about Noah's like path and trajectory, like that, he probably had a really tough life. The fact that he preached for 120 years into the most perverted culture that you could imagine probably even worse than what we have today and he only managed to save his family members, which is like what? Not a lot of people, compared to the amount of time that he put into it, and then you have total destruction upon the earth. He stuck on the ark for a long time with nothing but his family and animals, and like, does that look like favor Right? Like probably not in the moment, but it was favor. It was favor because the Lord was with him moment, but it was favor. It was favor because the Lord was with him. It was favor because the Lord sustained him and brought him through that horrible like destruction, that terrible destruction of the of the world.
Speaker 3:Um, so I think that there's a definition problem. Sometimes what we want as favor is probably different than what the Lord has for us as favor, and we sometimes let the world define what that means. So, like man, favor would look like I just got a new BMW. Favor would look like I just got a huge promotion. Favor would look like I just was able to buy a huge house. That's not necessarily favor. Sometimes those things are actually curses to people. Like, hey, you just got a great house, somehow, you got a loan for it and now you're underwater. Now your payments are just.
Speaker 3:Right Now you're losing it, but like, ultimately, the pursuit of the Lord is what brings that to you. You brought up. Who was it? What am I thinking of? I don't know. It's fine. There's plenty of examples of people throughout scripture where it does not look like an ideal situation. Yeah, joseph went through so many trials and so many problems, but the Lord was with him and there was favor upon him to be able to deliver people and ultimately, favor results in glorifying the Lord and the Lord being glorified more.
Speaker 1:Sure, I think this is a natural response. But I mean, we've all had moments in life where we just get our teeth kicked in constantly, Right, and then it's that moment. What am I doing wrong? Like why, is God not with this anymore? Like what am I? What do I need to change? What do I need to figure out? Cause it always seems like if I could just figure out the right answer, then God's going to come back.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Do you ever think Moses was just in? Then God's going to come back. Do you ever think Moses was just on the backside of the desert? Just like you know, I just haven't cracked the code and one of these days I'm going to figure it out. And then you know, 40 years after that, he's like. You know, if I could just crack the code, maybe I'd finally get out of this desert again.
Speaker 1:I feel like Moses is like I wish I'd never became a shepherd, I think. I just think God's favor.
Speaker 3:I did not hide good enough.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just think God's favor means walking in his plan, where his presence is. I mean and he's the personification of this, the quintessential verse that expresses this is if what Moses said if you don't go with us, don't take us up from here yeah, what he's saying. I don't want to be where your presence isn't. If your presence isn't going with us, then I don't have your blessing, I'm not with you and I'm not going that direction. Which tells me this Moses found comfort and peace in God alone. He realized that the destination of getting to the promised land was not worth it if God's presence wasn't actually there, and this is the thing that I've brought up in the past before. But picture heaven eating the fruits that you haven't even imagined yet. You know what I mean that God has come up with, and hanging out with the friends that you love, that you miss so dearly, or family members, or you know, maybe that weird dog that I don't believe is in heaven, but you do. You know whatever that might be. And maybe you, maybe you have the ability to fly, maybe you, maybe you will never feel exhausted, ever again. None of those things exist if Jesus is not there, because he is the substance of every single good thing. Imagine, imagine, like this picture of oh man, and I'm trying to think of the story.
Speaker 2:There's all these stories, like mythic stories, where somebody tries to bring somebody back from the dead and they find that it's not the person that they love because their essence is gone the monkey's bum, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, very similar Like this. This mythos goes beyond one story. It's like a constant thing in fables. I did things the wrong way and the outcome that I got was very different, even though what I said I was going to get is standing in front of me. Honestly, tim, what's the movie that we love with Brennan Fraser? Is that his name?
Speaker 1:Tarzan oh, bedazzled, bedazzled, that's what I was thinking of.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean. Every time he gets the thing answered he's like this is not, yeah, it's just, it's ruined.
Speaker 2:It's ruined. And as we just process that, I just I think we need to realize that being where the presence of God is, that's where the joy is, that's where the joy is, that's where the hope is. And if we're focusing on our circumstances, we'll start to hate the presence of God, which is such a weird thing to think about. But like, God is with me right now, he's walking with me, he's doing this stuff and I can be growing in hatred and bitterness. And if you're like that, can't, you can't be in the presence of God and experience that. Well, say that to Lucifer, okay. Or let's go a step farther, say that to Judas, right. Who is literally in the presence of Jesus, hanging out, experiencing miracles. We're all like how did that happen to you, bro? How are you seeing the miracle of the fish and the loaves? How are you seeing lepers get healed? How is all this happening?
Speaker 2:And then you are getting embittered and frustrated and angry the whole time. Well, because his inner dialogue sounded more like this I'm sick of sleeping outside, I'm sick of just eating bare minimum. I'm sick of being attacked by these Pharisees all the time. I'm sick of Jesus not doing more to bring in his kingdom and usher it in sooner. I'm sick of not getting more respect from the society around us for the things that I've done. I'm sick of not being noticed among the 12 for all the things that I'm taking care of. I'm sick of working off these scraps. I deserve a little bit more from the money box.
Speaker 2:You can be actively angry at God and searching for outcomes and wanting more when you're in the very presence of Jesus himself, who is the fulfillment of those things, if you're not paying attention to what it actually means in that moment. And so many people are just blind. Like God is here, he's with you, he's caring for you, he loves you and you are one of these people that again 1 Thessalonians talks about, who are just. You're just. The God of this age has blinded you. You have flirted with bitterness and frustration and irritation so long that you could be in the very presence of God and be angry and bitter and irritated because you can't see any of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, I get this paralysis analysis thing with God sometimes of God, I want your favor, so I'm going to read more, pray more, just give a checklist mentality to it. But that, I find, honestly, increases more bitterness because I'm not seeing the results.
Speaker 2:I'm not seeing the outcomes. Give me the outcome. God's like, do you want to hang out with me? I'm right here, right, right, yeah, give me the thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it's funny too, because when we pray for certain things that maybe the Lord's put on your heart as something that you actually really truly desire, he's giving you the desires of your heart. You take it to your prayer closet and you're like, okay, lord, give this to me, I want this, I want to partner with you in this. And then all of a sudden it seems like your plan for how you get there is totally disregarded and like the timeline's different. The friendships won and friendships lost all of a sudden become a different thing and it sends you on this path. And I think that's tempting for the Christian to be like, well, where is God in this? Because you said, you said you'd give me this, you said you were going to take care of it, but you were actually saying, on my terms, right?
Speaker 3:And I think the root question ends up becoming to the Christian who is God? Who's God to you? And it touches onto his sovereignty and like is he actually? Do you actually confess him to be fully sovereign over your life, over the circumstances of the world as it is? And my heart goes out to people like who face horrible tragedies. It's tough to find God in the cancer diagnosis. It's tough to find God in the hurricane aftermath, but the people who make it through that, and they crucify the flesh and they instead turn their eyes to Christ, are the ones that is sustained by him and his favor is poured out immeasurably to them.
Speaker 1:Let me ask you guys, sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 2:Oh, I was just going to say this. Heart posture is really clearly seen in the prophet Elijah, who is at his wits end, angry that he's not seeing revival in the nation. And God asked him the question what are you doing here, elijah? His response I've been very jealous for the Lord, the God of hosts, for the sons of Israel have forsaken your covenant, torn down your altars, killed your prophets with the sword, and I alone am left and they seek my life to take it away. Okay, this is the guy who just slaughtered 900 false prophets, called down fire from heaven and just showed everybody, in the face of everyone, that Yahweh is the true God. Fed by ravens about 40 days ago from this, he was eating pancakes cooked on a hot stone made by an angel of God for him, of God for him, and he can't see God's blessing or provision because he's too focused on what God hasn't done for him or the things he thought he was going to accomplish. And I wanted to make a note about this before we get too far off this topic For anyone that's read Until we have Faces, I'm just going to continue to recommend it because I think it's a fabulous book.
Speaker 2:Is that CS Lewis? Yeah, it's Lewis' last book. It's a retelling of the Greek mythological story of Cupid and Psyche.
Speaker 1:All right, yeah, the Greek one.
Speaker 2:It's really good. There's this story about this young girl who, basically, is taken and married by a god and this god takes her away to this palace, this beautiful place. It's fantastic and the only rule is she's not allowed to look at his face. Like that's the one rule You're not allowed to look at his face, but look what he's provided for us. It's this amazing thing. And this girl basically convinces this girl to do the thing that she's not supposed to do, in bitterness and frustration, because ultimately, she's mad that this girl is married to this god and that she doesn't get all of her time and affection.
Speaker 2:This the protagonist if you could call her that in the story. She's not. She's writing a book, basically, which is a polemic against the gods, to tell them everything that they've done wrong and how horrible they've done and how they've ruined her life. And in this instance, she allows her bitterness to convince her sister, who has this amazing setup with this prince who's taking care of her and loves her and has provided all this stuff. She convinces her to sin against him and ends up. She ends up losing her ability to stay married to this God you know what I mean and has to leave and go wander the earth by herself, and I love this story for a lot of reasons. There's like every fairy tale is in this tale, but ultimately, what I want to focus on is the person who can't see the present. Oh, I forgot to mention this the castle in this tale. But ultimately, what I want to focus on is the person who can't see the present. Oh, I forgot to mention this. The castle in this is invisible. She can see that this girl's psyche looks healthy and beautiful and vibrant more vibrant than she's ever been but she can't see it. She can't see the castle.
Speaker 2:And bitter people who can't see the presence of God uh, try to convince other people of how awful and terrible God is. That if you just did what he told you not to do, then you would see how horrible he is. It's the fruit in the garden. If you just do the thing that he told you not to do, then you'll see. It's what Satan says to God. If you just do this to him, then you'll see. This is the guy who's always accusing people to try to get them, bait them, into doing something that they shouldn't do. You know what I mean To get the thing or the outcome that he wants. That is actually destruction and something awful, and many people like Judas are sitting around bad talking, frustrated, growing bitterness and actually stealing from other people who are enjoying the presence of God, the ability to see the presence of God, by getting them to indulge in that wicked, malicious, unforgiving, bitter heart towards God.
Speaker 2:And so you need to be really careful, because people who can't see the blessing of God will try to convince you that you can't see it either.
Speaker 3:And I would even tell you too, it's a muscle that the Christian needs to develop, especially depending on people's testimony. People can come into a, they can become regenerated, they can become a Christian, and they can still carry with them the really, really pessimistic outlook on life. Sure, and they carry that with them. Then, all of a sudden, like all the things are going wrong according to their mind and their judgment of things, because, oh well, I'm a Christian and all of a sudden my life just became harder, like why did that happen? And they aren't quite catechized yet to be able to think through, like Romans 8, 28, that God is working out all things for the good of those who love him, for ultimately. So the question then becomes right, like if we are looking for favor from the Lord, if we're trying to be in that area of things, I think that two things come to mind. Number one is that put down our own presuppositions about what that means. Sure, like it's completely different. God's ways are higher than ours and he knows way better than us about how to glorify himself through what we're doing, about how to glorify himself through what we're doing. And the second thing that we need to understand is why does favor rest upon some people and not rest upon others. And ultimately it's due to the fact that God's providence is something that is presented to people for the expansion of the kingdom. It's presented to people for the health and the good of his church. Right, all of the things that he's doing is for his church and to glorify him and, as Christians, for us to be able to partner with God, so to speak, is more along the lines of saying just like God, you have control, like you're in this. And then that's where you start to see okay, well, if the goal is expansion of your kingdom, if the goal is the good of your church and to take care of your church if I can trust Romans 8, 28, then everything else is kind of inconsequential. We all know that we'll go through hard times and better times, and everybody needs to understand that, that there's going to be different seasons for everybody.
Speaker 3:And you brought up Job. Job's a great example of that. Man was faithful Like he did according to the scriptures. He really did nothing wrong and he got slapped up the entire book of Job pretty much, and he did not so much as posture himself to make himself the judge of his own situation. He did not posture himself in a way of saying like, well, this is good, this is bad, but instead his friends all came to him and said this is how you judge this. Well, that wasn't at all what God was saying. That wasn't at all what God's reasoning behind that was. Now did Job have questions? Absolutely, and the funny part about that is how God answered Job. He, he didn't. He, he's like god. Why is everything so hard? And you know what he did. He showed him how big he was oh god said shut up.
Speaker 2:He says I am god you are not.
Speaker 3:Yeah, do you? Do you know what the foundations of the earth look like?
Speaker 2:you ever made a hippopotamus loser like, do you?
Speaker 3:know how difficult that was to get through approval processes with that animal more like you know how difficult that was to get through approval processes with that animal More like you know how easy it was for me yeah.
Speaker 3:And ultimately, when confronted with who God is and his character, Job shrunk back and said you know what? You're right. And then what happened at the end of Job? Blessing, Blessing. We forget about that Ten times, right, we forget about that. Everything that he lost, the Lord restored to him and everything that happened to him was for it to be documented, written down, put into our scriptures for us to be able to read for encouragement.
Speaker 2:And just to follow the narrative of what we've been talking about. Basically the story of Job is hey, if you take away all the outcomes that the person is hoping for, satan tells God well, he'll definitely stop seeing your presence and stop following you. Then he's more interested in the outcome than you. And the story of Job is Job wrestling the entire time to hold on to God and to him, as opposed to his circumstances, and in that getting to see the fullness of that blessing restored 10 times over.
Speaker 1:I like that. Yeah, if this is the outcome of following God, then so be it right. Yes, kind of that mindset, that is it. That's interesting.
Speaker 2:It is. Every. Every instance of difficulty in your personal life is a greater opportunity to tighten your grip on what actually matters and loosen your grip on the outcome that you think you need.
Speaker 1:Well, matt, you brought up control and we did one on Ecclesiastes a couple weeks back, jesse, yeah, and we didn't get to this part, but I learned this with Ecclesiastes when he's talking about meaningless, how it's actually Hebrew for hevel yeah.
Speaker 1:Which means smoke and vapor. So he's not calling life meaningless. Hebrew for hevel, which means smoke and vapor. So he's not calling life meaningless. He's saying your life is like a smoke. You cannot grasp it. Like it's going to go where it's going to go, you know. Trust God At the end of that book. Just trust God.
Speaker 2:Well, the connection to that right is John, chapter 3. Yeah, the spirit, or the wind, blows where it wants to. Yeah, and if you are following the spirit, what does that say about your vapid existence? It's going to be here and there and God's going to take you places, and people that follow the wind uh, are are vapor. That should write like yeah, I'm going, I'm going with him, but have you ever seen a smoke? Try to fight against the wind.
Speaker 1:That's an awkward that doesn't make any sense, yeah, yeah, even nature itself, you know, is it a wrong mentality to all right? I want God's favor, so I'm going to start, I'm going to read the Bible.
Speaker 3:For the favor, I'm going to go to church for the favor, I'm going to tithe for the blessing, so I?
Speaker 3:I think that that's a. The short answer is probably yes, right, but at the same time, there is something to be said about building spiritual habits so that you get there, right. It sounds more like prosperity, I guess. Well, there's a concept of eat until you're hungry, right, you may have to discipline yourself enough to be able to get to the point where, all of a sudden, you're doing this not because of the fact that you're trying to get something from God, but rather your heart starts to actually fall in love with who God is.
Speaker 3:And that is an okay starting place for some people. But so long as they don't land there and end there, and they continue to have good discipleship and they're attending the church that the Lord has told them to attend, and learning under good men, or potentially, if you're a lady, learning under a spiritual woman, that's more, I guess, advanced in the Christian faith than you are, if you're doing those things, I think that most of that will kind of work itself out. But I mean, I think that a lot of people would probably say, well, I know, I'm supposed to do this, and then you start to like oh, I do this because I love God Right.
Speaker 1:And I think that's, I guess, what I'm kind of getting at is I want the works or the fruits right to be an overflow of my love for God. But, man, it's hard, Like I don't want to read all the time, I don't want to pray all the time, I don't want to worship all the time. You know what I mean. So forcing myself to do those things like is this counting? Can I throw something in here?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think about this immediately in the context of marriage. I just do look, I love my wife. I have five children. I'm trying to think there's this pastor, he has this joke. He's like I don't have five kids because I love kids. I have five kids because I love my wife. You know, always make me laugh. It's so funny. But here's the deal you could say. You could say that all the things that I'm doing at home are ultimately to spend unique time with my wife. Right, that's really not the case. But am I working my game all day as well? You bet I am.
Speaker 2:I think that's the tension is, ultimately, I want to do something that's going to help serve the outcome. To do something that's going to help serve the outcome and in that there's also great joy and adventure and frustration and all the things that come along with like relationship. So if you make it one or the other, you either end up in legalism or antinomianism. But the Christian faith is this tension of I love my wife, I want to stay married and also I'm going to work for the benefit and the things that helped me fall more in love with you in that process, which are through these small steps along the way. So this great picture of covenantal love and also sanctification is this process of being married but also working your game because you want to stay married, and I do think that's it.
Speaker 2:So if I'm reading the Bible and I'm worshiping, is that ultimately because I just want God to give me a house? No, but I'd love a house. Right? If I don't get the house, am I falling out of love with Jesus? No, I love Jesus. This is what I'm doing. But I'll tell you what's going to happen If I get that house I'm going to fill it with people who don't know Jesus yet or other worshipers of God, and I'm going to use this house for God's glory and for what we're going to do. Is that a good thing? Yes, because it's part of the process and ultimately, to fulfill that relationship and help continue to grow the process of loving God's presence.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I.
Speaker 2:God takes those things from you If you start to elevate the gift above the giver right.
Speaker 3:That's such a good word because there's something that I tell people all the time is that when we're finally standing in front of Jesus and we're kind of revealed everything that he has been doing and orchestrating in our lives, I firmly believe we'll probably thank him more for the no's in our lives than the yes, that for the things that he closed the door on in our lives, then the things that he opened the doors in our lives.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and know this we learn far more from pain than we ever do from victory. Guys, yep, you just do. Our moments of joy are fantastic and I appreciate them, and our hilltops are fantastic and I love them and I want them. But the times where I'm actually growing and becoming something more is when you're in the prison with Joseph and you're actually finding the presence of God with you there, and I would argue those same things are true in your marriage and with your kids as well. True, in your marriage and with your kids as well.
Speaker 2:It's the low, frustrating points that actually define your strength, because you had to find that together and work at that together, not the moments when everything's working out together. This is why I always joke about stupid shows like the Bachelor or whatever it's like. Yeah, take them all out of their actual work environment, out of all the struggle they might deal with, and put them on a freaking island together where everyone cooks for them, everyone cleans for them and everything is perfect. And then take them out of that environment after they think they found the one and put them in an actual difficult environment and let's see how it works out. I can't imagine the statistics of people staying together on that show are very high. I just I don't think. I don't think so because it's not the moments of victory that forge, you know, beauty and greatness and connection. It's the moments of struggle that do those things. And if you're always avoiding that, you're always looking just for outcomes, it's not going to go well.
Speaker 1:You reminded me of uh, was it Psalm? Oh man, two, three, you know you leave me by still waters through the valley of the shadow of death.
Speaker 2:It was 23. 23,. I was way up. Well, I got two and a three. You were in the Psalms. I was there, you were in the Psalms. It was great. And you didn't say book Right the Psalms. You said the right number, joe Biden.
Speaker 1:You remind me of that Psalm because for the longest time I thought that go through the valley, get to the mountain right. And then you go through the valley, get to the mountain. We're talking about the hills and stuff. But now I read that and I'm like no, you find the valley in the well, you find the green pastures in that valley. Yeah, you have to find the pasture within that valley of death.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the mountaintop that's how you get there Is the valley sometimes. Yeah, you know what I mean, and the valley is the mountaintop. It's your perspective.
Speaker 1:Is God with me or is he not with me? It's like the idea of, like I said, this is like a step-by-step thing or something, but it's all one thing.
Speaker 2:The valley, the mountain.
Speaker 1:The pastures is all in there. You just got to find the pasture with God.
Speaker 2:It's what made Peter a retard. Like, let me explain this, this to you. I'm not trying to be edgy here. Well, maybe I am a little. Peter and John are getting whipped and beaten and they're coming out singing songs because they're like man, we're getting to do what Jesus did. Y'all are crazy. Or Paul, he's chained to people in prison and he's just singing hymns in the middle of the night.
Speaker 3:Stoned once and then walked back into the city.
Speaker 2:It creates the behavior of a crazy person in you, because, instead of being the person, like Judas, who's in the presence of God and only focusing on all the outcomes he doesn't have, you can be the opposite of that, where you can be the person who's in all the outcomes you don't have, but so enamored by the presence of God that you're just invulnerable to it, and I think that is the that's. The goal, you know, is to become that person who worships an immovable God and, because of that, becomes an immovable person, and that's a really good thing that we would want to work on together.
Speaker 3:But yeah, and by the way, I looked it up on how many couples stay together after dating shows and stuff like that. So that's like married at first sight, the Bachelor, all these other ones 80 to 95% of couples from dating shows end up breaking up post-show.
Speaker 2:There you go.
Speaker 3:Because you end up synthetic right. You synthetically look at the world, and I think that this is a good metaphor for how we actually can view success. Sometimes it's like, great, we had this awesome thing, but where are you actually grounded in? Where are you actually rooted in and, actually, more importantly, what's your motivations?
Speaker 1:right.
Speaker 3:I think that there is something to be said where, like, there's some altruism that the Christians should lean into to some degree. It's like, why do we do what we do for the sake of the Lord alone, like we don't do it for him to be able to fill our bank account? We don't, you know, buy the big home in order to say, well, look at my home. Everything that we have and are given are instruments and tools that the Lord has given us in a specific way, in a specific time, for us to be able to serve him. So when, justin, you were saying that, wow, if I got a big home, do you know what I'd be doing? I'd be filling the home with a whole ton of people that to be able to worship you and glorify you, lord, that's what I would do. That with, do with that house.
Speaker 3:And I think that sometimes, like, we can say that and the Lord says, okay, cool, well, let me sanctify you until you get to that point, because I actually know where your heart truly is. And then we shake our fist at the sky and we're like why is it so hard? Why do I not have the house that I want yet? And the reality is that if you were given that, it would just be like giving a loaded gun to a toddler.
Speaker 2:Daddy won't buy me a car, right yeah, but we kind of treat it like that.
Speaker 3:And, at the same time, there's things that the Lord gives us that we desire, that we really want to be involved in, that we want to pursue, that we want to have and, yes, I think that in our hearts and in our minds, we know that it's supposed to be sanctified, given as a sacrifice to the Lord, but also keep in mind he can take it away anytime, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I totally agree with all that. I think, just through this process, this podcast, I really think the thing to remember is ultimately looking for blessing and pursuing blessing should be looking for and pursuing the presence of God, and there's a tension there of desiring outcomes that would help fulfill and amplify my love for the presence of God. David's whole life was a pursuit of the presence of God. Moses' whole life was a pursuit of the presence of God. Even Christ comes down, becomes incarnate, is separated from God and the worst moment for him ever. You know what I mean. My God, my God, elo, elo lama sabachthani, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? The worst thing that can happen to you is that the presence of God would not be with you in a particular moment and our heart cries. Christians needs to be. If you don't go with us, don't take us up from here, and if that is your heart posture, whatever outcome you're sitting in right now, christian, you get to be I'll say it again the retard. You're right.
Speaker 2:Who is like? Dude, everyone's like. Why are you happy? How are you surviving through this? How is this working out? Because I know God Right and he's with me and I can make. This is the God that makes graves in the gardens right. This is the God that makes the highway that's called holiness. This is the God that has resurrection power and, no matter what circumstance I find myself in, I know I'm in his presence and this prison, like Joseph, is about to become mine and I'm going to use it in a really cool way to bring about, ultimately, the salvation of tons of other people. This goes so far beyond me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I'd say with that mindset too, I think as a Christian you could almost look at almost all situations in your life as a form of God's favor on you. It may not appear like that at the front end of it. It may seem tough, but if you are truly abiding in the Lord and understanding that, hey, trials and tribulations are a grace from him, hey, the cool things that he's giving you and the things that are working out in your life, that's a grace from him. And all of that is to meld you and to make you and to sanctify you into more and more his likeness as your life grows, goes on, so that you can glorify him all the more. And that, at the root level, is favor, even when it's like you're rubbing off the rough edges of a piece of wood with sandpaper, like that's God's favor, that's okay, and we need to understand that as. Thank you, sir. May I have another? Yeah, I mean again, have that.
Speaker 3:If we are able to really truly sit as Christians and say you know what? I don't know why so-and-so passed away in my life. I don't know why a fire completely destroyed my home. I don't know why any of this happens, but I know that God's got a plan. God is fully in control, god is absolutely sovereign and I guarantee you because, justin and Tim, you guys probably have exact same type of testimonies where you go through something so hard and then maybe years later you look back and you're like, okay, I know exactly what the Lord was doing and I would not change that for anything, because that has helped define me and make me into who I am and to how I worship what I've noticed with.
Speaker 1:that is when things are hard and struggling, eventually life takes on momentum because of those hard and struggling and it's like, oh okay, this is great.
Speaker 2:Matt, I was over here while you guys are so deep in this and for some reason my head floated way too. Yeah, my pronouns would not be she, her if I didn't go. I'm sorry. We'll call back to the beginning of the episode. You're 100% right. You're 100% right and I have faith. Even. I would even say for you guys that are like man, I don't, I look back and I don't know why God did this.
Speaker 2:Hebrews 11 is one of my favorite passages because it says hey, a bunch of people didn't get to see what you got to see. They didn't get to. Abraham got this promise. He didn't get to see the fruition of that promise until he was on the other side. But I'm trusting God's presence, that I'm following him, and one day, whether on this side of the grave or the next, I will look back and not only will what God has done be perfect, it will be seen by the saints to have been perfect as well. And my hope is in that, in that one day, that great feeling of justice and revelation and truth, and that man, what God has done is marvelous.
Speaker 3:And it's total triumph, too right. You look at it and it's like man, the triumph of the Lord and all of this. And I just I guess one thing that I would say for men, especially if you're going through some stuff just think about this. I think about this all the time. It's winning without a fight actually feels like losing, yeah, Like winning without a fight feels inauthentic. It feels like, did I actually deserve that? Like, and I kind of think about like Jake Paul versus Mike Tyson.
Speaker 3:It's like do you actually feel good about that dude Like I?
Speaker 2:saw this meeting man. Somebody was like. He was like this Greenland shark is 463 years old and somebody was like better, callake paul, he's got another fight yeah, but no, I mean, the lord puts us through this for a reason.
Speaker 3:David would not be who he was if it wasn't for the caves. Yeah, you know, joseph would not have been who he was if it wasn't for the prison, and the lord delights in using people who've just said yes to him, regardless of the circumstance.
Speaker 2:Do you think that's what Joseph's brothers said to him when they first find out?
Speaker 3:You're going to love it later.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no no, they saw him and they had a hard time recognizing him at first, and then they knew it was him and they were like prison changed you.
Speaker 3:I just thought of like prison Mike.
Speaker 2:I'm from the office. I'm prison.
Speaker 3:Joseph.
Speaker 1:All right. Well, this was a fun topic, guys. Thank you both for being here, yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm going to pray for people real quick, Timmy. Father, God, I pray for people to see you and enjoy your presence. Lord, I pray that for anybody that is dealing with the spirit of Joseph or Judas, Lord, dealing with that spirit that wants to see all the frustrations when you have set a table for us in the presence of our enemies, Lord, would you just heal their damaged emotions in this moment. Give them eyes to see you clearly, ears to hear what it is that you're saying, Lord, and a grip in their hand to hold tightly to you through whatever they're walking through. Lord, we love you and we thank you for your presence that is with us, Lord, as we walk in unity with your spirit. We pray in Jesus name, Amen.
Speaker 3:Amen, cool. Well, thanks for having me guys.
Speaker 2:Thanks for coming back on everybody have a great week, all right?
Speaker 1:Catch you all next time.
