Navigate Podcast
Welcome to Navigate, we are two long term friends doing life and ministry together. I got tired of the same ole answers when I started looking for help when it came to my walk with God. So together we go deeper than most would on topics that most people have heard or were taught but never fully understood. It is our way of simplifying concepts that we may have over complicated throughout our lives. Bringing theology and life experience into each episode. It is our hope and desire to help Navigate your Christian walk with you
Navigate Podcast
Martyrdom
Charlie Kirk's assassination has become a watershed moment for Christians in America. What does it mean when standing for biblical truth puts a target on your back? In this powerful conversation, Justin sits down with Kaleb, a young Christian brother, to unpack the spiritual dimensions of Kirk's martyrdom and what it means for believers everywhere.
Kaleb shares his moving experience visiting the memorial site where Kirk was shot, describing the quiet reverence of strangers gathering at midnight to pay respects. The conversation then turns to Kaleb's own journey of faith-based activism – from his arrest and court battle for wearing a "Jesus Loves You" shirt at a Pride event to his ministry at abortion clinics. His story reveals both the cost and the profound spiritual growth that comes from standing firm in hostile environments.
The parallels between modern-day persecution and biblical martyrs like Stephen become unmistakable as they examine how speaking truth has always provoked violent opposition throughout history. "They didn't kill Jesus because he healed people," Justin notes. "They killed him because he told them the truth."
This episode delivers a challenging wake-up call to comfortable Christianity. As churches nationwide see attendance surge following Kirk's death, a spiritual awakening may be stirring – but will believers answer the call to greater boldness? Kaleb offers practical guidance for those taking their first steps into cultural engagement, emphasizing community, preparation, and the right heart posture.
Whether you're already engaged in the cultural battle or feeling God's nudge toward greater courage, this conversation will equip you to turn righteous anger into purposeful action. The spiritual warfare is real – the only question is whether you'll be stationed on the frontlines or sitting on the sidelines.
Ready to step into greater boldness? Listen now and discover how to stand firm when truth makes you a target.
Email us at tjbhpodcast@gmail.com
All right. Well, everybody, welcome to Navigate Podcast. I am not Tim, this is Justin, and I've started, I think, my first podcast this way and, I'll be honest with you, it feels a little bit uncomfortable without Tim at this moment, but he was otherwise engaged. So I am here with my good buddy, caleb, or Kaleeb as we like to call him, dude. I'm actually really excited to just sit down and have a conversation with you. How long have we known each other now?
Speaker 1:Probably just under three years. Three years, okay. Well, it's been an eventful three years for you, it's been an eventful three years for me and I wanted to kick off, kind of our time today. I want to talk about martyrs a little bit. I wanted to talk about Charlie Kirk, I want to talk about some of the call that God has uniquely placed on our life and in some of these areas. And, uh, you were just out in Utah, weren't you? You were, you just went to the place where he was actually shot. Uh, I would love to hear your thoughts Like what was that like just being in that area? What was welling up in you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Um, we. So we were out there this past weekend for a friend of ours getting married in Utah and, uh, after the. Mormon.
Speaker 1:One wife, one of the few. Good, he was a girl, right? Yes, thankfully Set up from another friend, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but anyway, we were out in Utah for that, just finished the wedding, yeah, and one of our friends who was driving Isaiah and I, my roommate, one of the guys brave and moved down here to texas. He, uh, he's like, hey, it's on the way to your hotel, do you just want to swing by and take a look? And so we did news. By the time we got there was about 11 30 11 30 pm. Oh, okay, and uh, yeah, it was late and it's dark. And something that was still kind of surprising was like you pull up to the university and of course, they still have the police tape wrapped around everything to it's a crime scene, as it should be, right, yeah, um and uh, it's like I said it's late and we get it there and there's still people pulling in to go to his visual. There's like 10 people that are there.
Speaker 2:It's almost midnight and people are coming by after work and just coming by to pay respects. Everyone's quiet. Yeah, everyone's just standing there and just reviewing. They have this. It's probably 10, 10, 20 yards wide of different flowers and signs and charlie kirk's photo carrying the torch. Like this all this stuff of love and support for his family. Someone had a little piece of paper down there with a qr code to help donate to his uh funeral session and to tp usa and some of those things and it was heavy, honestly. You come up and it's all quiet. Nobody's holding their phone recording or anything. Everyone's just there to be present and to just give honor to Charlie and to his ministry that he fought so much to be a part of, even starting at 18, for creating TPUSA.
Speaker 1:I can't shake the heaviness. Honestly, I feel like it's been what was it Wednesday of last week? Something.
Speaker 2:Thursday, something like that.
Speaker 1:Thursday. Maybe it's been crazy, like I feel like I'm just carrying a weight around and I keep trying to remind myself like you got to take that anger and frustration and turn it into fuel, you know, and do something with it, which and frustration and turn it into fuel, you know, and do something with it, which is really important. But I think this is a like just a massive, massive thing that has happened on a national level. Like I think churches saw a larger growth in attendance this week, like than they have since, like 9 11 originally happened. Yeah, we're seeing tons and tons of TP USA chapters opening up in different places, which is really cool. People are texting online Like I've come to Christ and I'm going to church because I'm seeing what's actually going on, which I think is really freaking cool. But I mean, what will? What went through your mind when all this happened? Like, what was the first? What was the first first? You know feels for you as you were processing all that.
Speaker 2:It didn't feel real. It was like, yeah, I mean you saw the video and it's obviously very clear and close. You see the entirety of the events. It was more sustained and just not necessarily awestruck, but just stunt, you know, just unverbal, no response. No answer, just sitting there in silence and just like, did this really?
Speaker 1:just happen and of all the people for them to, for this leftist alphabet soup mob to attack. It is crazy to me that they picked the principled guy. They picked the chill one, like there's a lot of guys on the right side who are a little bit more inflammatory, will do some more shady stuff, say some more shady stuff. He was the guy who went to college campuses and would just talk to anybody. You know what I mean. He was very polite, way more polite than anybody was to him at any of these things, but he loved Jesus. He shared the faith consistently. I think he ended up being an apologist in a lot of ways when he was not normally an apologist and had to become that for Christianity because his faith was such a big part of how he lived and what he did.
Speaker 1:As I was processing through all this man, what was really coming to my mind was the story of Stephen. You know what I mean. Like he's before the Sanhedrin Acts, chapter seven, and he's just telling them the truth. You know what I mean. And how many times in the gospels do you see crowds of people trying to kill Jesus because of what he's saying? Crowds of people trying to kill Jesus because of what he's saying, right, and I just think there's such a deep and profound power that comes with telling the truth and and actually just laying out what God has said. Like you really don't have to do much more than say what the truth is to see people who are steeped in darkness begin to lose their freaking minds. You know like it's, it's the classic right. Like, men love darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. And I think you start to shed light, especially on these um coliseums of darkness. Uh, you know what are? They called um universities, that's what they call them now. But but it's crazy, like they're. I mean what is being taught? And you see these hordes of people at these places who are being indoctrinated with this nonsense. They're the new churches in our society. You know what I mean Teaching a false religion to people in droves. And you know I think about.
Speaker 1:You know what Théoden said? You, you know, in the second lord of the rings, right, like, what can you do against such reckless hate? And I think that's a it's just a fair question to ask. But steven, when he stands before the sanhedrin in extractor 7 I pulled it up he, he basically lays out the entire god, like from the beginning, everything that God has done and how.
Speaker 1:Every time somebody tells the truth or does the right thing, wicked people who want to rule the establishment and run things and want to be God and detest the fact that God is God, you know, end up killing the good people. And then he says you men are stiff necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears and are always resisting the Holy Spirit. You are doing just as your fathers did. Which one of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? They killed those who previously announced the coming of the righteous one, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become, you who received the law as ordained by angels and yet did not keep it. When they heard this, they were cut to the quick and they began gnashing their teeth at him, but being filled with the Holy Spirit, he you guys know the rest of the story. Stephen is is killed for what he believes, but the the the theme is the same they shut their ears, they gnashed their teeth, they yelled and tried to overpower what he was saying so that nobody else could hear it. And it's like that. That same demonic mentality that wants to silence the truth was just as just, as alive now, as it was with steven, as it was with jesus, and it is with any other truth teller, anybody else.
Speaker 1:Who's going to come out and actually preach the gospel man? You're? You're declaring war, truth, truth is war, and we should want to get to a place in our life where we are so dedicated to the truth that we begin to make enemies Right. Yeah, that we begin to like actually piss people off, like if you were, like I don't want to make anybody angry, I don't want to upset anybody. What you're saying is I'm not interested in truth winning, I'm not interested in the light going forward and I just I want to encourage Christians and I'm sure interested in the light going forward, and I just I want to encourage Christians, and I'm sure you do too.
Speaker 1:Bro, like we have to be dedicated to making the darkness frustrated. You have to be dedicated to like wanting to piss off the right people, and I'm not saying be unnecessarily, unnecessarily inflammatory in the wrong areas, but, bro, like we're so afraid of pissing anybody off that I think we have actually exited the fight and we've lost ground in these massive areas, in these universities, where they have no problem vocalizing all kinds of crazy ideas and concepts and whatever else, but, bro, you bring the truth and it's a nightmare. Now, you have experienced a little bit of this in your life. You just won a court case, didn't you? Yeah, you should tell us a little bit about that story.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, there's a group called Stand on the Gap Initiative and I initially heard about it from Jimmy Graham when Pastor Jeff brought him up on stage and said hey, they're going to go before the Douglas County Pride Parade and just put a group together and we're just going to go. It's in Douglas County. The first one that I went to, anyway was 2023, I think. Yeah, down in Douglas County. So, as I'm going there, I have a couple friends with me and the thing that's in my mind because there's so many demons trying to play like you shouldn't go, you shouldn't go, you should stay home, like you don't know what's going to happen, this could go terribly for you, all of these things and the thing I kept saying over and over in my mind was there's a quote and I don't know who it is, I don't know who says it. You might, but uh, if you don't have any enemies, do you really stand for anything?
Speaker 2:yeah yeah, and so it's like adopting that mentality. The world will hate you for my namesake like these kind of things. Yep, and we go in, we stand up. They actually invited us up, which was hilarious, uh, which made it legal.
Speaker 1:Uh, more legal so they're like yeah, never interrupt the enemy when they're making a mistake.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, jimmy's like yeah, we're going to absolutely take advantage of this. So they anticipated, I don't know, maybe 10 people, but instead the 40, 50 men standing up wearing a shirt that's on the front it says uh, stand to protect children. On the back says Jesus loves you, and so do I.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:And uh, you're standing up, cause the whole reason we were there is they hired an R-rated drag show company to come dance in front of children and called it. Quote unquote family, friendly with an all gender bathroom and all this other stuff which is garbage, Right.
Speaker 2:And so we stand there, we're delaying the show, we're there for probably 45 minutes, we don't say a word, None of us gets angry. The whole time. They have their, their uh what is that? Pride mafia with their, uh, pride umbrellas, like trying to fan over and cover us from from having any sort of saying, and, uh, they actually break three laws. We didn't do anything Like. Uh, the, the, the. Unfortunately, the sad part about it is at that time I don't know if this has changed, but uh, we-year-old kid with us and one of the guys there, or whatever they want to call themselves, touched him below the belt and we got it on camera, gave it to the Douglas County Police and they didn't pursue it. Uh, county police and they didn't pursue it. There were a couple other different things that showed specifically on camera. They broke the law and we didn't. And, uh, I saved a few of those newspaper articles that came out after and only one of them said what they said message on the back was positive of and Jesus loves you, and so do I.
Speaker 1:At a drip cafe, which is this Christian uh coffee shop, uh, in this Christian coffee shop in Denver, which you've been to, I think as well, a couple of times. I know, guys, you did, I didn't actually go to.
Speaker 2:I know about Drift Cafe.
Speaker 1:So there's basically like this Antifa group that goes down and like tries to block people from going in and giving this place business and demanding it get shut down because these people are Christians who support Christian things. I mean it's monstrous. But there was tons and tons of people that would show up. One guy, a friend of mine, thomas, literally got assaulted on his way, like just trying to get back to his car, and was assaulted by some of these people and he was straight up told from the Denver Police Department that they would not pursue any kind of stuff that was coming from the left. They wouldn't do any of it.
Speaker 1:Now, if you were on the right, if you were there at the coffee shop or they were doing worship and prayer and buying coffees to try to support this place, if those people did anything wrong, they would immediately cuff them and take them away.
Speaker 1:But they're literally told that if the left does anything up to assault, like it's not going to go anywhere and they won't press charges, they won't do anything about it. Literally, they are telling people we're not going to help you, but we will help them, we're not interested in defending you, we're only interested in defending them, and it's that same mentality with what you're dealing with in this particular circumstance. It's like, yeah, we're not interested in fighting for righteousness, we're not interested in defending what's good and true anymore, we're on the side of evil, which is crazy to me. If you're a police officer still on the force that loves Jesus, like what, what are you doing in that environment? I mean, I praise God for godly people in good places defending the right things. Thank you, like we need more of that, but it's amazing to me, so so so all this stuff happened.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was, that was the previous year and they ended up shutting it down.
Speaker 1:Right, they ended up moving.
Speaker 2:They moved to Parker, colorado, because they thought they didn't get enough protection that they would have liked to, and so they moved to Parker. I did hear whispers. I didn't know if it was particularly true, but some churches may have gone up to legislation and tried to put a ban because having an assembly like that would go against religious beliefs and didn't protect children, and so they tried to get some sort of lawsuit, and I think that's why they moved.
Speaker 1:I hope that's true. I hope it is true. I hope that's true. I hope there were churches that actually did that, but the next time they moved it to a different area and you guys tried to go out and do it again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that one was a little different Um group Stand the Gap Initiative, Yep and so it was going to be a little bit different. This time we were a different shirt that says you Are Loved on the front. For those who can't see, it's on my shirt. That's been, it's faded.
Speaker 2:Faded Very very faded, engraved on my heart. Yes, if I fall into dirt, but anyway, we get there. We're pulling into the like Strattsburg Public Park in Parker and it's public property. They have this whole setup there and it's enclosed gate, fence and everything, gravel, parking lot, and as we drive in, one of the guys who I end up getting to know very well is his name is Brad and he goes to the Englewood campus. He's a civil lawyer and as we drive in, um, he's actually in cuffs being arrested, and I just remember thinking this is going to be fun, you know, oh, the lawyers in cuffs, this is great. Um, so we get there and it's. It's a heavy, heavy police presence, to the point where you have two drones. You have four snipers at least that I can see and 40 to 50 minimum police officers that are just there in uniform.
Speaker 1:Those darn Christians wearing Jesus loves you, and so do I shirts. So, you definitely need snipers for them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we definitely stood out, you know, because we're in jeans and maybe a button up and nothing that says, hey, I'm gay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're not wearing rainbow stripes. Nothing, rainbow, you should have dressed like a blue haired pig and you would have nailed it.
Speaker 2:We had two guys that dressed in Hawaiian shirts and as they walked around trying to get in, they're like, oh, you're such a good couple. He's like, no, reveal the shirt. He's like not worth it. But as we pulled in, people had already tried to get in and they set up a free speech area. So they were outside.
Speaker 2:But the plan was to get inside because we paid for a ticket, which is legal, to just go in and put our backs to the fence and just pray during the whole. Yeah, people would come up and yell at you or whatever. You're not going to engage, we're just going to pray. And um, something that kind of cool toward the end of it was, they were supposed to go until five, ended up going until two or three o'clock because it ended up brain, and I was like, thank Lord, yeah, that's awesome. Um, we didn't get to go in. Um, unfortunately, like, I brought a couple of guys with me, um and uh, you know we're supposed to have some kind of shirt to cover it up, but I brought them the shirt, but the only extra shirt I had was white. So you have white over white and you can clearly read the message.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so she stops us like yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:She's like no, we're not going to let you in. Like, okay, uh, like okay, why not? They're like well, you're part of this group, like we don't want you to do anything, so we're just not going to let you in. And then Isaiah, who's with me, and another guy named Levi, we're having this conversation and she's saying, like okay, well, we're still not going to let you in. Like, okay, can we have a refund? She's like that's a civil matter, you'll have to go online. And don't get me wrong, it's a dollar, sure, but still you paid for the ticket and it's legally binding to get into whatever event. If I go for it, if I uh, just because you don't like my t-shirt, you know, if I wear a chief's uniform, which from Kansas city, so I would to a Broncos game, right, you can't kick me out because I'm wearing a chief's, because I'm wearing a chief's Jersey, right.
Speaker 2:So same kind of thing. And so learn actually a lot through this process. But we go, try to get in. She doesn't let us in. She brings over the police officers. We have the same conversation with them and they say, look, you can either leave on your own accordance or you can leave it to us. And so at that point we're like, okay, yeah, exactly, just put our hands out and just say, hey, take me, you put our hands out and just say, hey, take me, you're not allowing me to do here what's within my first amendment, right and you're
Speaker 2:like go ahead and take me and um, so he. He takes, uh Isaiah, turns around, handcuffs him. He's like you guys can walk away, like he was the one that was talking, like you don't have to. Yeah, closure. Uh, it's a separate area. This is this gated fence with this police presence of you. Know, they've had this like a how, what you would imagine if there was like an fbi van with a flower on the side? You?
Speaker 2:know yeah but it says police instead. Right, so they have this police surveillance vehicle. They have two snipers up on top. You have two guys with drones that are flying around, which I think was more than trump got he got shot at but, um, so we're sitting there, we're putting these chairs and they have us, they hold us for I don't know 30, 45 minutes and just sitting down, and, um, the other guys I'm with, they've kind of seen some of these things before, and so they know to keep their mouth shut. I didn't, so I wasn't talking with people, but the two things that came to mind was I know that you've talked about, or other pastors have talked about like you know, if you're squeezed tight enough, does Jesus come out, and so the only thing that comes to my mind is a mix of the song Strong Tower, and so Will I.
Speaker 1:Nice.
Speaker 2:And so I'm singing these to myself as we're sitting there. Uh, eventually they come over like hey, we're charging you with criminal trespass. Um, you know, there's no fine here because we'll let the judge decide that when you get there you have a year ban on this place. If you break that, you'll be, you know, charged again. Uh. And as we're getting up to leave, he's like hey, we're just going to correct that. So he just struck it out, wrote individually like end of the day, you can come back the next day and you'll be fine. Uh, which apparently was different than Brad, who was the lawyer inside the event at the time, who was asked to leave. Uh, even though he was the lawyer for the event to make sure that our rights were upheld when his were being not right.
Speaker 2:Uh, his lawyer duties were being stricken from him by arresting him, right, uh, and he was still told you have to stay out for it. Uh, we, we get done. We um end up going over and shaking the officer's hands Like, hey, we appreciate it, we know that you're doing your job, right. This is so we shake we'd leave in a good relationship, sort of right. But it's like I understand you're doing what you think you have to do and so I'm not. We're not upset with you, we're civilized and we're shaking your hand Like, yeah, thank you for your service.
Speaker 1:You're a decent person.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Right, Right. And so we walk away, stand on the side, and so they're just the rest of that event. We're just standing on the side, shirts are revealed, just waving to people Cause, uh, you know, wasn't going. Months later we go to um stand before the judge for the first time and it's just do you enter a plea of guilty or not guilty? We say we're not guilty.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And that goes to probably six months of waiting and like, hey, okay, here's your next court appearance, here's this, here's that. And then here's your trial date. And so we do a jury trial not a bench trial, which is just instead of having the judge be. Hey, here's the evidence. And you decide we bring in six people from Parker to then be the jury, and so all we needed was one to have a mistrial and just do it again, and six for all of them to say you're acquitted. So that's how that kind of started to go. For all of them to say you're acquitted. So that's how that kind of started to go. A week before we even get to it, they're like hey, we're going to offer you a deal where all you do is you have to say that you're guilty of committing this crime, but we're going to make it so.
Speaker 2:oh, it doesn't get put on your record, it doesn't you know, you don't have to serve community service or anything, you just have to say that you're guilty, that you did something wrong, and the three of us came together after time of prayer and we're like we didn't do anything wrong and we're all three of us, we're all good.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And when we got there, brad also was there, and so he all four of us are like we're going, we're fighting this thing all the way through. We could have probably just said I'm guilty, and you know what Pay a guilty, and you know what pay a $200 fine and 30 hours community service, and just do that. But like what, if you stayed in the fight, like if you cop out now you won't be able to see what God had in store. And so went all the way through. And that week was brutal for the trial. You know it was Wednesday and Friday of that week, so I got Wednesday and Friday off of work, so I had a full day of trial and then went to work the next day.
Speaker 1:Man, that's rough. It was tough, but you ended up being acquitted, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, we ended up being acquitted, we had a full day and after that day they do the I don't know how in-depth you want for the actual trial itself. Oh, you're good, yeah, um, you know, early on you watch lawyer shows and all this kind of stuff and they're like, hey, this is what it means, like you have to be able to prove each element of the case and if you can't prove all of them, if you can't prove one of them, you have to find them not guilty.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so they were able to do maybe three or four of the other ones, but could not prove the one, and the one was just for reference and for people in Parker who might be in similar situations or whatever else it may be, or just things to look up to know this.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Um, it was we. Because it was a private event, they got a permit for it. So because of that um, they were allowed to trespass and ask us to leave. Um, but the thing was it was either um, you had to be either a owner, but it's a public property, so there's no owner. You had to be the like if you lived on, the owner occupant, so if it was like your home, there's no. And then person of lawful control which in this case would not be the police because it was a private event would be either the president of Pride Fest or the head of security. And those were the two.
Speaker 2:As we go throughout trial, we learned that their protocol was if you encounter somebody, you have to call one of these two people and then they will come over and tell the police to like tell them, hey, you have to leave, and if you can't, then you get trespassed and then you get put in cuffs. And that didn't happen for us. We were there. The volunteer went directly to the police, so she broke protocol and, yes, I do think that that definitely helped with proving us not guilty. But also, brad had a different circumstance, was already inside. One of those people did ask him to leave. She didn't identify herself.
Speaker 2:And I think that led to his specific case being acquitted as well. And I'm not taking any of that away from God, because that was a guy we were there for sitting for maybe an hour, you know, and the longer it goes, the more you think you're going to be guilty, because there's more to talk about. But we were there for maybe an hour sitting there and I tell you one of the hardest things was to say, hey, he's going to come out, the jury's going to come out, and as they read what they find there can be no reaction, and as they read what they find there can be no reaction, you have to take it cold, like no response whatsoever, because if you're found guilty and you're either cheering or you're pissed off or whatever that can influence the judge to give you a harsher sentence Okay, which we were facing a thousand dollar fine and a year in jail, if found guilty to the maximum extent, for showing up, yeah, yeah, or to wear a shirt that says jesus loves you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the uh, uh. Our lawyer said any, any time. That, uh, that would only time he's ever seen that happen is if someone broke onto the premises and caused like destruction or property. So he said, sure, you're probably, you know if you were found guilty, and he was fairly confident that we wouldn't be. He was very confident. He's an awesome dude, incredible lawyer, great Christian guy. He got provided several times financially, which we can talk about, praise the Lord. Yeah, that's huge, but we get there and I'm sitting down and for some reason it was always during the trial. It was always Brad me, levi and Isaiah. Yeah, always was brad me, levi and isaiah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So when they read it off, they said city of parker versus caleb. You're eating meal first, you know. So all the things start to go on your head. But eight months of waiting, 10 months, whatever ends up being waiting comes down to this next eight seconds, yeah, you know. And so there's a city of parker, uh, against caleb walton. Finally, defendant not guilty. And that's just a little relief and I Lord, there better be three more or I'm going to feel so guilty. I would be so mad because I invited those two guys with me. They didn't know, they didn't go to the event before of like, hey, this is what we're anticipating, this is what we're going to do. I invited them on Sunday, the day before, and they said let's do it, you know it reminds me of the, you know the, the story of Shadrach, meshach and Abednego.
Speaker 1:right, like you got these guys in the furnace and God's there. You know he's got you and he's pulling you out from it, which is fantastic. But yeah, and you've done other stuff too, like you've been out at a, at abortion mills, uh, with I don't know if we've gone together.
Speaker 2:I don't think we have done some of your disciples and I have definitely have gone out for sure. We love.
Speaker 1:We love firebrands and guys who are loud about their faith and where you're going to murder children in the womb. It's egregious and I love that we have people that go out there and man dealt with cops a couple of times at those places and it's it's tough man. They'll say stuff that's not true. They'll they'll like, threaten you with stuff that they're not supposed to, just to try to get you to leave because they're trying to appease people. It's a weird system. Now we're doing the right things and standing up for what god has told you to do can put you in hot water almost immediately and make you feel like you're doing something wrong when you're doing something right. Yeah, and I feel like like the morality of our culture today is make people feel bad or demonize them for standing up for basic truths. People are humans. You know what I mean. Like they have. They have. They have value. You can't just destroy them. You know what I mean. You can't just kill people because you don't like them, and this stuff with Charlie Kirkman is like um, because you don't like them. And this stuff with Charlie Kirkman is like um. I was just it's.
Speaker 1:I think it's a wake up call for every church who's you know mode of operation has been nice people into the kingdom. Try to just be as sweet and as much of a pushover as you can so that you can win people over. And you hear people quote this bit from Paul I become things to all people so that by all means I might win some over. But if that is your ministry strategy for your church, then you're going to become the people that you're trying to reach. You eventually get molded into the shape of the thing that you were trying to conquer in the first place. And it's crazy to me I'm, I'm, you know, we're. We're out in Texas right now and I'm talking to a guy who goes to a school down here and he's like man. I can't believe how many of my fellow teachers were like celebrating the death of Charlie Kirk and we're so glad that he was gone and bloody blah, and I'm like dude, we're there's no there on. And blah, blah, and I'm like dude, we're, there's, no, there's no place where you are safe from woke ism and I'm kind of praising God for that, like I. I really think this is a moment for us as a nation to wake the frick up to, to start paying attention to how our lackluster faith has led us to this point. I mean, this is kind of where we're at with King's Banner. This is why we're out here right now is to wake up the sleeping giant that is lethargic Christianity, like we got it. We have got to teach people to begin to be vocal and and I think so many people think I'm not in the fight, I'm not going to engage. You know, I'm doing, I'm being a good person, I'm doing this stuff and and everybody needs to hear this it is not enough for you to just live a chill life where you're avoiding all the conflict. That is being part of the problem. I'm okay with giving away the next generation.
Speaker 1:I think about Hezekiah. I don't know if you know this story, but God was going to take his life. He's a really good king. God was going to take his life and he cries out to God and says, god, I would love more time and God gives him more time, but in those 10 years he wrecks everything. He takes all this time and he kind of blows the nation up. He shows a nation that will, in the future, invade them and destroy them and carry off all the goods. He shows them the stores in the temple and look at all the awesome stuff we have. And a prophet comes to him and tells him dude, what are you doing? You just showed all the enemies all this stuff. You just created a perfect environment for us to get, you know, looted and have to go to war and do all this stuff. And his response to that is well, at least it won't happen in my lifetime.
Speaker 1:And I got to say this. Not everybody who is a boomer has this mentality, but I do think there is a boomer mentality frequently. That is, we'll be fine, but the next generation is going to have to deal with it. And it drives me insane because the fight is here right now and solid guys that love Jesus are dying for their faith on on college campuses in Utah. In Utah, like this is not. This is not somewhere in New York, this is not somewhere in California.
Speaker 1:Utah is supposed to be more of a civil state. You know what I mean. At least there's some religiosity, even if the form that it takes there is repugnant and disgusting and false. On the campus in Utah, our brother in Christ, charlie Kirk, is is getting murdered, assassinated because of his desire to speak the truth and do the right things and I just it drives me crazy that so many people are quiet and I I'm seeing some people wake up, I'm seeing some good stuff happening, but I mean, like what would you tell people? As someone who goes out to abortion clinics and shares the gospel of people, as somebody who goes to these testimony, what, what did it for you, what, what activated you so that you were willing to go out and take a stand and be vocal? Uh, in some of these, let's say, unsavory environments that other people would avoid, yeah, Uh, thank you for starters.
Speaker 2:Uh, I would initially say, and I was the fact that I did any of this stuff, one goes to glory to God, because I was such a shy kid, yeah, Incredibly introverted. If you told me when I was, you know, in middle school that I'd be out on the side of the road calling out to women to save babies, you know I'd be like you're delusional.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you need help. You need help, you know.
Speaker 2:But you know, getting started with that was not my pursuit when I started going to break. Yeah, that all came from just being consistent and going to Friday night, the Friday night ministry that you had.
Speaker 1:Yeah, men's, yeah, going to men's group.
Speaker 2:Yeah going to men's group and starting as a you know 22, 23-year-old kid and you're getting poured into by men.
Speaker 1:Men, if you're hearing this right now and you are not part of a group currently, find one, join some other guys, get into the word and push each other. Amen, amen, all right, keep rolling, so yeah like, that's how it.
Speaker 2:That's how it started. One of the one of the guys, jared Neal, who's coming down. Yeah, with us eventually. Part of the part of the Kings banner army yeah yeah, he. He's like hey, a few of us are gonna go to Boulder Planned Parenthood tomorrow. We're gonna go call out and try and save some babies. Do you want to go? Yeah?
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Saying yes because I, like the guy you know, I was like don't know what I'm going to anticipate and what ended up going through. I went to bed knowing that I'd accept this, and so I had a nightmare. And then the next day, driving to Boulder is about 30 minutes for me and uh, the whole drive there, what was playing in my mind was, you know, when the first uh school bus full of black students started to come in to desegregate to the white school. And you have the these, you have these guard posts up and people screaming and yelling at them as they're walking up to the yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:And that was playing in my mind, like this is what it's going to be like. You're not made for this. This is going to be super uncomfortable, you know. And I get out there and it's nothing like you know it's. It's. It's unfortunately it's in a very public area, it's next to some grocery store and a kid's swimsuit place and some other things like that, and there's a nice tree out front to keep us shaded, but it got intense for sure. Um, so my at least my encouragement, and that is no matter what you think when you're going to bed, no matter what happens when you lead up to that event, just go, yeah, because it's going to be different than what you think and you're going to be uncomfortable and that's okay.
Speaker 1:And that's where you grow. Yeah, it is that. That's, that's what. That's where it matters, right, Like, can you think of things in your life that have mattered as much as taking those steps of faith? You know what I mean. And going out and be vocal, Like I feel like those are the things in your life that you actually remember is the times that you took steps of faith. The rest are just days, from one day to another. You can go to work, you can go home, you can relax, you can turn on the TV, you can death scroll through your phone, but the things that you remember and know this was valuable were the times that you took steps out in faith and did something that puts you in some of those precarious situations.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Getting cursed out in front of an abortion clinic is an experience that you won't forget, and it's frustrating. And some of these people are man, just death mongers. People are are man, just death mongers. You know, um, and, and you're talking to somebody, you have to realize in that moment, man, I'm talking to something that has taken possession of this person. It's not even them at this point. You know what I mean. But it's real, but also that's it. That's where the fight is, that's where we want to go, and I think Satan is counting on you staying home. I think Satan is counting on you not doing what God has called you to do. He's counting on you shutting your mouth. And I've said this before. But if being bold for you means talking about difficult topics around people that agree with you, you're not being bold. Boldness is talking about those topics with people who don't. And if we said against you this is what Charlie Kirk did so well, man, he would talk with to see that happen and then shy back and say, man, you could get hurt.
Speaker 1:I think the goal would be to double down and say it's time, like if you've been on your couch doing nothing, get up, get involved. If you haven't even been going to church, go to church. If you haven't been reading your Bible, read the Bible. If you haven't been reading your Bible, read the Bible. If you haven't been praying, pray. If you have not been active with other men, you got to get involved with other people who are going to call you to more and call out of you what God is, what has called you to right. And I think you're you're one of the guys that I've enjoyed, because you just started showing up to one of our men's groups and we played basketball afterwards and you started trash talking. I was like I'm gonna like this guy, we're gonna, we're gonna get along fine, yeah, um, but going to places where you can get around other guys who will speak the truth and will take steps of faith can ignite something in you that is supposed to be there. You know what I mean, and every guy's got a spark in there that I think sometimes we're repressing because we just don't want to um, we don't want to be involved in something uncomfortable or get in a fight.
Speaker 1:But let me just say to all the men and women listening right now you're already in one. You're already in a fight. There is darkness, there is light, it's real. And if you are in Christ, the Bible tells us in Colossians that God has transferred you from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of his beloved son, which means you have chosen a side. There is a line in the sand and either you're fighting and you're involved in what God has called you to do or you were sitting back at base camp. And if, like so many people, god gives you armor and a sword and so many people are, like I, put on the armor of God every day and you don't even need it because you're not using the sword. You don't even need it because you're not out there sharing the truth. They didn't kill Jesus because he healed people. They killed him because he told them the truth, and that's what they didn't like. Right?
Speaker 1:I have this quote from Tertullian. It's famous. Everybody quotes the second half of it, but the whole thing is so good. He says we're not a new philosophy but a divine revelation. That's why you can't just exterminate us. The more you kill, the more we are. The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church. You praise those who endured pain and death so long as they aren't Christians. Your cruelties merely prove our innocence of the crimes you charge against us and you frustrate your purpose, because those who see us die wonder why we do, for we die like the men you revere, not like slaves or criminals, and when they find out, they join us.
Speaker 1:And I just wanted to encourage everybody listening to this podcast. And, man, I so appreciate you because you've been highly involved in so many of the things that we've been trying to do as a church and so many of the things that are near and dear to my heart as a ministry, and so many of the guys that are part of King's banner. You know the people coming out of brave and the church that we were a part of, and I praise God for so much of the ability we had to get involved in things like fight 1312 and all the stuff that was going on. We we have got to turn things up, not turn them down. This is not a time to sit back and mourn. This is a time to turn those things into fuel and begin to take extra steps of faith and take seriously what God has called you to do, and I really believe what we're doing right now out here planning King's Banner Church really is taking a massive step of faith to try to wake people up, who are sleepy, who are missing the God-given calling that he's put it on their life and we're not joining the fight, and call them to the most glorious thing that God has called all of us to, which is the war against darkness, and tell them it's time.
Speaker 1:Put your armor on, put your sword, you know, take it out of its sheath and start going to war with things. If you're not being vocal in your job, for the love of all that is good, start being honest about who. You are right. Darkness grows in silence and I would just say start, start being real in your homes, with your wife, with your kids.
Speaker 1:If you're not telling them the most important things, if you're not teaching them how to take those courageous steps, and not just with your words but with your actions, you're actually missing out on what God has called you to and you're hiding behind values that are still okay in our society to act like everything is fine. And I'm telling you right now, those values are not where the fight is. The fight is where truth is being challenged. We got to take serious steps, so how would you encourage somebody who needs to take a couple of first steps. You said go, but like, is there anything you would encourage, let's say, some younger guys to, or some uninvolved people, anything you would tell them to start doing right away?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That was uh for starters. Um, you spoke on getting involved with men's group and finding guys and by finding that, you find like-minded guys and when you go on ministry with those mission, with those guys, you grow those bonds and those relationships grow deep because you're going through battle with them, you're crawling through the muck with them and they're holding you accountable and you're holding them accountable. Um, so I would say yes, start start off and find a men's group. Find one that actually goes into the word, not just one that shares their their weeks and then drinks beer and then goes home.
Speaker 1:Don't just talk about it, be about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, uh, I would. If you're going to an event, um of something that's standing against what culture says to be true, or anything like that, I have some advice of you know don't wear a company merch cause.
Speaker 2:You probably will lose your job Um but, uh, some of the, some of the things I'd try and tell one of the guys for the first one that I went to in in 2023 was, you know, he's worried about his job and he worked at chick-fil-a and it was like, yeah, brother, if you know, we may be called to be martyred, so what's a job? Yep yeah what's a job?
Speaker 1:what? What does a job matter?
Speaker 2:uh, if, you're gonna lose your line right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, jesus has called us to lay down our life for him. And, uh, I I this the other day, but I was like I want to die a death where I live loud enough that the left would celebrate when I die. And I just want to challenge everybody listening to this podcast live a life loud enough for Jesus that that Satan would celebrate at your death. And, uh, I think it's important just telling everybody, um, something that I'm doing that I would encourage you guys to do. I've saved that video of Charlie Kirk getting shot and it is morbid and it is heartbreaking to watch. It's hard to watch and I want to encourage you, on your tired days, when you're lethargic, when you don't feel like going and doing what God has called you to do, watch that video and remind your heart what you're up against, remind your heart why you're here and what the darkness ultimately wants to do, and then go do what God has called you to do in his name. Amen, amen, good word. Let me, uh, can I add something? Oh, yeah, go ahead, brother.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, if you're going to take I learned this the hard way if you're going to bring friends with you or invite friends to an event, or to go stand outside and go call out to women one, be compassionate for that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Don't call out and condemn them, because they're definitely not going to want to come and talk over to a man about a body, Right, Uh, so be compassionate, bring somebody with you. Uh, that helps one, not only to protect you in case anything were to come against you. You're above reproach, you're recording yourself, you're protecting yourself for whatever narrative they try to release, but also do some due diligence. Look into some local laws, local ordinances, of things about you know, noise ordinance or public property versus private property, and we're not I'm not encouraging you to, you know, push that and to break laws, but, uh, you know, if it's required sometimes, if you know there are places overseas where people are getting killed for their beliefs because they're breaking the law, and if it's where.
Speaker 2:at that extent, that's another discussion. But, um, look into some of those things, cause if you're going to lead and if you're going to bring some of your brothers and sisters with you into the fight, it's worth doing the due diligence, because you're not just putting your life on the line, you're putting theirs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and I would say there's good reasons to go to prison and there's dumb reasons to go to prison right and know the difference.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, totally, and, god willing, if you're going out and doing some of this stuff, I would say you know whether that's some of you your first step might just be Might be like get out from under the phone and the computer and everything else that you're stuck with and go find some actual God-fearing firebrands that love Jesus and are about it and then allow some of these guys to teach you. Because, yeah, I don't want people going out and just yelling at people and calling them names. That's leftist mentality. It's not what we're doing. But we are going to speak the truth. We are going to invite people out of the darkness into the kingdom of light and we are going to draw hard lines and tell people this is what Jesus says is right, this is what's wrong, and acknowledge the fact that choosing the side of the darkness is ultimately choosing for future destruction for anybody that is involved in that, and I want to call everybody out of it. That we can. Amen, let me.
Speaker 1:Let me pray for some people today that might be struggling in this area God, I just looked up today Anybody who is feeling scared to take steps of faith.
Speaker 1:I pray that you would give them courage and put some steel in their spine to be who you've called them to be, god.
Speaker 1:I thank you for godly preachers who are bringing the word and shedding light on what is going on. Lord, I pray for the Kirk family right now, jesus, that you would just sustain Lord, his wife and his two kiddos to take care of them, lord, and I thank you for the fire that you're building right now in Jesus name, through this godly man's death to To allow the gospel to go forward, to allow people to rise up and do what you've uniquely called them to, lord. And I ask graciously, lord, and fervently in Jesus' name, for more. Give us more opportunity, lord, bring more revival and call men and women of faith into a place where they would fight for what you have called them to fight for, lord, may we not be people like Hezekiah who punt on it because it'll get worse in other people's generations. May we be the people who would stop it now and fight for blessing for the next generation. I pray in Jesus name Amen. Awesome, bro. Thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2:Thanks for talking about it.
Speaker 1:Love you, Appreciate you, and next time we have you on we'll have to do a hear about your testimony a little bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it sounds great. Uh, if, if anybody has questions on how to like maybe some of those first steps or how to get involved or some of those things, I think if they just email in and ask some questions, I can absolutely. Yeah, we got some resources.
Speaker 1:Um, we got several places that you can go to and people that we know to help you get involved in some different places. So, yeah, all right. Well, you guys have an awesome.
