Navigate Podcast
Welcome to Navigate, we are two long term friends doing life and ministry together. I got tired of the same ole answers when I started looking for help when it came to my walk with God. So together we go deeper than most would on topics that most people have heard or were taught but never fully understood. It is our way of simplifying concepts that we may have over complicated throughout our lives. Bringing theology and life experience into each episode. It is our hope and desire to help Navigate your Christian walk with you
Navigate Podcast
Worship Is Warfare
What if worship isn’t a feeling but an allegiance—one that reshapes your heart, your habits, and how you spend your time and money? We dive into the sweeping call to love God with heart, soul, and strength and unpack how that plays out in ordinary life: parenting through interruptions, singing when you don’t feel like it, building daily liturgies that stick, and turning homes and resources into outposts of grace. Tiffany shares a raw moment of singing “I surrender” and realizing she hadn’t—and how repentance, renouncing lies, replacing them with truth, and renewing the mind became a simple, repeatable path back to a true heart posture.
We talk bodies as instruments of worship—why kneeling matters, why gratitude can lead feelings, and why consistent rhythms are more like strength training than spiritual fireworks. From prayer journals with kids to listening to Scripture when the house is loud, we offer practical patterns that grow real resilience. We also reframe “peace.” The Prince of Peace doesn’t anesthetize; he reconciles and then sends us into hard places with a different kind of courage. That peace is covenantal, not merely emotional—a settled trust that frees us to obey when comfort resists.
Finally, we push against common counterfeits: comparison culture, curated perfection, politics-as-purpose, porn, and the lure of numbing habits. Strength in the Kingdom means resources offered and multiplied—hospitality that stretches budgets, fences that bless neighbors for decades, meals that turn into discipleship. When heart posture flows into daily liturgy and then into generous strength, households, churches, and communities actually change. Subscribe, share with a friend who needs courage for their daily rhythms, and leave a review with one practice you’ll start this week.
Email us at: tjbhpodcast@gmail.com
Welcome everybody to the Navigate podcast. Uh, I have a probably the greatest uh guest we've ever had on the show. For the second time. For the second time. First time was so epic that we decided to wait at least a year before we brought you back on the podcast. My lovely wife Tiffany is with us today.
SPEAKER_01:Hello. Hello again.
SPEAKER_04:And Tiffany legitimately means image of God.
SPEAKER_01:Appearance.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Tiffany, like Theophany. Yeah, that's pretty cool. What is it like having a name like that?
SPEAKER_02:Um, you know, it's pretty weighty. Also, then my middle name is Born Again, so it's like a lot to live up to.
SPEAKER_04:Image of God, born again, heart.
SPEAKER_02:It's like I was chosen to belong to the Lord.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, but I was thinking heart. Is it yeah, I guess it works if you're H H E A R T but yeah, ours means like hunter. So less cool. What does Smith mean? You're meaningful.
SPEAKER_01:Blacksmith.
SPEAKER_04:Okay. So you went from a blacksmith to a to a hunter.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:No, I know.
SPEAKER_01:Huntress.
SPEAKER_04:Huntress. Yep. Yep, definitely. Well, I wanted to jump on and I wanted to talk to you a little bit about uh worship. I think it's been something for both of us that has been defining um in our life, in our marriage, with our kids, and really I kind of wanted to talk about the comprehensive nature of worship in general. And I wanted to talk about it with you because I I just feel like this is a this is a topic, and and worship in particular, I think is something that's affected you in your life in a unique way, and I think it's grown for both of us and our understanding in marriage and all the things that we're a part of. And I felt like um jumping on and talking about this topic with you would be good for everyone else who is in marriage, who is in life, especially maybe if you're a mom or a wife or are getting after it to maybe open up your idea of what worship can actually look like. And one of our uh values that we talk about at King's Banner is that worship is warfare. Uh worship is not something that is passive, it's not just emoting in a moment with music. Um, it's something that is actually changing things in the environment around you. It actually is bringing change. And I was thinking about uh Deuteronomy 6 actually in the Shema. Let me read it and then maybe let's chop it up a little bit. Hero Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your might. These words which I am commanding you today shall be on your heart, you shall teach them diligently to your sons, and shall talk of them when you sit in your household, and when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up, you shall bind them as signs on your hand, they shall be as frontals on your forehead, you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on the gates. Then it shall come about when the Lord your God brings you into the land which you swore to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give you great and splendid cities which you did not build, and houses full of good things, which you did not fill, and hewn cisterns, which you did not dig, vineyards and olive trees, which you did not plant, and you eat and are satisfied, then watch yourself that you do not forget the Lord who brought you from the land of Egypt out of the house of slavery. And it says, You shall fear only the Lord your God, and you shall worship him and swear by his name. And it goes on to say you shall, you know, not follow other gods and different stuff like that. But I feel like there's this comprehensive picture of worship in this passage that is not just singing songs, and I know you know people get this idea, worship is what we do with our life. Yes. What does that actually what does that actually mean? You know, what is that functionally boiled down to? And I like this text because it gets into raising kids, it gets into working the land, it gets into um how you lie down and rise up and and what it, you know, all the different parts of yourself uh when it comes to worship. And I was thinking, you know, like how do you feel like worship for you fits into homeschooling kids and uh raising a family and making meals and all the things? I mean, uh talk to me about that a little bit.
SPEAKER_02:Well, when you brought up that we were going to discuss worship, the first thing that I thought about was my testimony because as I was worshiping in the singing aspect of worship um and singing the words I surrender when the Lord was like, No, you don't. I was like, Oh yeah, no, I don't. And so just thinking about that, like, oh, this was literally worship was what got me to where I am now. And so then thinking about that, it's like it I mean, it really it touches every area, and so it's like yes, worshiping and how to serve and honor God with my time and with my worship um with homeschooling and with being a wife and everything, it's like if I'm not worshiping the Lord or in fellowship with Him or just making it a priority, it things don't go well. Yeah You know, it it's always a heart check to be like, okay, what are you worshiping?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Well, and what's the difference between living uh a life that's worship and what's what's uh a life that is not worship in your opinion?
SPEAKER_02:What is a life that is worship and what's not? I mean, I'm trying to I feel like I'm gonna say this wrong, but you worship what you fear. I think about that with I mean, like if you're fearing the Lord, you're worshiping him, and that everything that you're doing you are spending time talking to him, you're spending time in the Bible. Because worshiping is like an obsession in some ways. Yeah. You know, because it's like you worship uh people like I worship, I worship the this weird lulapoo dolls, whatever I said it wrong. But you know, it's like everything is like an aspect of worship is how you're spending your time and focusing on things. Yeah. And so worshiping the Lord is I have to fix my eyes on him, I have to be in prayer and talking to him, I have to be in repentance and renouncing lies. I have to be educating my children about who the Lord is and why it's important to talk to him. You can't do that if you don't know who God is.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Yeah. This week what I've been struck by and thinking about a lot is the idea uh of righteousness, uh a righteousness exalting a nation, the righteous will inherit the land, um uh the the righteous will inherit the earth. Um I've been thinking about the idea of the kingdom in general. And this idea of a kingdom is that you have a king, and this king is not of this world, but he's the creator of this world. And when you get taken and transferred from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light, uh you are living by a new set of rules and standards and thinking that most people uh I don't think get. Like it's not a natural thing to us to live under the new rules and the new, let's say, administration that is gospel, you know, kingdom-mindedness in everything that we do. Worship is ultimately living um under this new kingdom with a new king. The the word that's used in the old testament uh the most for worship is is means means to prostrate yourself. Like to literally to um it's a physical statement with your body that means uh I'm declaring you king. And I think about uh worship for us ultimately means in everything that we're doing, we're declaring Christ king. How am I declaring Christ king with my, you know, with with the way that I take care of you know dinner today? You know, how I'm how I'm putting the kids to bed, how I'm uh greeting the neighbors around us is is the grass that I have outf in front of my house declaring Christ king? You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01:Like it's grace in its hands, so yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Right, but it's like a it's a weird thing to think about.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:But but to bring it back to this idea about righteousness, I was thinking that right because righteousness exalts a nation, the righteous will inherit the earth. There's this kingdom mindset where ultimately, if you're abiding and walking in worship, the kingdom flourishes and and literally the the world around you grows and gets better. It starts to look the way that it's supposed to, it starts to function the way that it's supposed to. And when you're not worshiping with what you're doing, ultimately your your whole world gets out of whack. You start to lose focus on what's actually important. Uh things start to degenerate. And uh, even as I was thinking about like the United States, and um, you know what I mean, it our constitution assumes like a moral people.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_04:And I'm not uh look at me, I'm not the um uh Bible wrapped in the American flag pastor. That is not me.
SPEAKER_01:True.
SPEAKER_04:Uh Jesus Christ is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, but I am an American, and I just think about how our country was founded with these particular values, and it has become this titan and this powerhouse, you know what I mean, that is um been a beacon of hope in a lot of ways for the nations around us. And when, you know, when the Bible is telling us that the righteous will inherit the earth, you know what I mean? Like the, you know, the righteous will inherit the land and different passages. I just think this reality that it's like if your life becomes worship, then you will grow the kingdom and you will actually see blessing that extends far beyond you. Um, and even the idea of, you know, in the beatitudes, right? Uh those who hunger and thirst for righteousness will be satisfied. Righteousness is not just an internal thing that we're looking for, it's an external thing that we should want. I don't just want internal righteousness, I desire righteousness to reign around me. Another way of saying that is I want our king to rule in every area. And because of that, I want to live the way that my king lives. I want to walk the way that my king walks. And um, I think the Shema is kind of building this idea out. And I was thinking about the love the Lord your God with all your heart, you know, with all your with all your soul and with all your strength. I'm trying to think exactly how the NASB says it. Um, and might. And I was thinking about the kind of the three areas where this matters. Like, so one is the internal person, like the disposition of the heart itself. So, what does it mean to love the Lord with all your heart? How important is heart posture with with what you do on a daily?
SPEAKER_02:Heart posture is huge. I think to tie into that too, with you know, the thing that you hear is trust your heart.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And and the Lord's like, the heart is deceitful above all else. Like and so to know that you're supposed to worship the Lord with your heart, trust him with all of your heart, you're not trusting your heart, you're trusting the Lord with your heart.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And so, I mean, that's just that's when you're in difficult situations, it's very easy to get caught up in your head, or you can obsess about everything external that could be bothering you, or this isn't as comfortable as I'd like it to be. And it's like, okay, but do you trust that the Lord loves you? Do you trust that he cares about your heart?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And so as long as you're walking with him, like he knows your difficulties, he sees your challenges.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. What do you feel like is the most practical way for you where you feel like you're giving the Lord your heart with like loving the Lord with your heart? What does that look like for you on a daily?
SPEAKER_02:Loving the Lord with my heart looks like the first thing I think of is the four R's. Okay. Go ahead. Repent, renounce, replace, renew. Um, so you know, repenting of you're saying sorry. It's just getting right with God. You know, I'm like, I'm getting right with God, I'm getting rid of the lies, and then I'm uh renewing my mind with scripture and I'm replacing with the truth of his word and how to actually live for Jesus. Yeah. Because I think, like I said, when you're thinking of your heart and what it's doing, it can be very self-obsessive.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Like, uh well.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, it wants to worship itself, right? It wants to worship a a different kingdom, right? Or function in a different capacity. Instead of building for the kingdom of light, you want to build a tower of babel for yourself. Um, and uh yeah, I think the the disposition of the heart is key. And we see this all throughout scripture, like this idea that the Lord measures the heart of a person. Um, I think this can get taken too far the wrong direction too, though. You know, when people say, like, yeah, but the Lord knows my heart, and that's the problem, actually. That's that's actually.
SPEAKER_00:Other people should too.
SPEAKER_04:Right. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like this, and again, this idea of righteousness not just being an internal thing, but becoming an external thing. Well, but but if you don't have the internal thing, the external thing is just false. It's a lie. Right. And then you up end up with, you know, Isaiah chapter one. He was like, Away with the noise of your song, you know, these people worship me, but their hearts are far from me. Clearly, the heart is a big deal. And I think um, in the same way that this word for worship means to prostrate yourself, I think it starts with like what kind of what you were just saying. We start with repentance, uh, renouncing nonsense, replacing it with the truth, and asking for just renewal in the way that you think and the way that you process, but it's but it's getting your heart in a place where you're actually living for God and asking yourself the question, how does God want me to do this thing?
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_04:You know, we know the verse, right? Like, you know, don't work for men, but work as unto the Lord and the things that we do, we want to do for God, but we can do that begrudgingly.
SPEAKER_03:Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, just heart checks are key. I I actually think this is one of the areas where physical praise, like actually praising God, actually singing songs of worship, singing psalms, singing scripture, um, even just singing with joy has this unique effect where it can work backwards. Like we want everything to be perfect on the inside and then eventually get to a place where what we're saying on the outside is like, um, you know, it's it's a perfect reflection of my heart. But I I found that sometimes starting from the outside and working inside also works great.
SPEAKER_02:Um well, yeah, I think it's with the kids we do prayer journals before we start our day. And every day it's like they'll do their prayer like please help grandma, you know?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:That's thank you, God. Amen. I'm like, that's that's good. Like, at least we're praying. But today I was like, hey, can we start with gratitude? Like, let's write one thing down that we're thankful for because we want to be thankful for what's God's doing, not just always asking him for things, because it's like we want to be we want to be aligned with him too. Yeah, you know, instead of just just focused on yourself, even in that, like, yes, I'm going to the Lord in prayer, but in my reverent, like being reverent towards him first.
SPEAKER_04:Yep. Yeah, my checking my own heart or am I ultimately always thinking externally, you know, is it is it in here first? And I I've found that if I'm angry, um going to war in worship looks like singing songs of praise when I don't want to. Uh going to war uh when I'm discouraged looks like singing songs of worship. And to your point, there's a gratitude, there's a praise, and it's this no, I'm not standing off in the corner while Jesus is on his throne. I'm bowing my face down, whether I feel like it right now or what or not, because whether I feel like it in the moment, Christ is king, he is Lord, and he deserves praise. And sometimes you gotta you gotta beat your heart into submission a little bit. You gotta like you gotta go to war with the nonsense that is keeping your heart position from going where it's actually supposed to go. And I I think um you know you brought up earlier that story about like you know, you uh you you you sing that song I surrender all and God telling you you weren't. Did you sit down right afterwards? I think I remember.
SPEAKER_02:I stopped singing immediately. You stopped singing immediately. And I was like, no, I don't. Like, I mean, he was like, No, you you don't surrender. I'm like, no, I don't.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:You know?
SPEAKER_04:The the second part of worship that I was thinking about is ultimately what you do with your physical self. Like there's a um the second element to me is this kind of liturgical aspect where my heart is where it's supposed to be. So I love the Lord, you know, with my heart. And then I I think this idea of of soul kind of goes into the K now what am I actually functionally doing to reflect what God has called me to do? So I think about like, you know, raising my hands. I think about um, man, some of the like why is it sometimes you feel like you're supposed to kneel? Right. You know, when you when you're let's say singing songs and praising the Lord, there's there's something in you that um knows it's supposed to act a certain way or do specific things that honor God. I think simple stuff like taking communion, uh, being baptized are obviously like physical things that we functionally do that are good for our soul. But what are some physical things you feel like that you do uh or have found helpful in your own life that that stir your heart and and um let's say are unique to worshiping God or getting uh allowing your heart posture to speak in what you functionally do?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think what just what you said of getting uh I mean raising your hands, of course, but I have found it and it matches with scripture that when you are singing songs with the word holy, like you should be on your knees at the least. You know, like some of us like face down on the floor singing holy, holy, holy.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And we're just like, oh, you know, like it's that whole singing and not actually caring about what you're saying because it's just repetition sometimes. Like sometimes you're singing worship and it just slaps you in the face, you're like, oh my gosh, yes. Like I have been on my kitchen floor face down just singing to the Lord, which sounds totally crazy. But you know, like I I think there's sometimes it's very easy to just get in the habit of doing things, but to your point of is your soul in it? You're like you are housing the Holy Spirit, yeah, right? Like that is within you. And if you're at a place where you're seeing about the holiness of God and you're just flippant about it, yeah, that's that's the whole what you're saying about like prostrating yourself. Like I think it's the what your body is doing is a symbol of like humility.
SPEAKER_04:This is this is something that bugs me about Protestant churches. I think, and I I don't know that Catholics have it nailed or the Orthodox people have it nailed, but there's several times during the church service where you're gonna kneel and pray, uh, where you're gonna stand back up, where you're gonna pray a certain thing all together at the same time. There's like this communal together thing that's supposed to happen that transcends just what you say with your mouth, but actually is like, no, I'm worshiping God with my physical body.
SPEAKER_02:Which I agree that the concept is better.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But I think that it would it could produce exactly the same thing as what I'm saying. Like you get flippant with it. You know, it's like, oh well, now we kneel, now we stand. It's like, but why are we kneeling? Yeah, why are we singing these words?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Yeah, if it's not actually getting into your guts, then then you have the same problem, right? So you've got to have that heart posture first of knowing why I'm here, the heart's disposition. But then getting into that idea of just um, I just think liturgy in general, there are rhythms that you should find yourself in in it on a consistent basis that are helping get your heart right, but they're also establishing with your physical body what you're doing. Like, so I think about just praying in the morning before my feet hit the floor. I think praying in the car when I pull up at the house. Um, you know, I think about uh those weird times where God just tells you, I want you to kneel and I want you to pray. I remember being outside of a soda fountain one time uh when I was working in this kitchen and I was like, this is really weird. And I feel like God told me I want you to kneel, I want you to pray right here. And I was like, this is really awkward. Okay, Lord not really a great time to do this, but um that there is something about that. And even just even just the physical act of going to church every Sunday. I'm going to this particular thing for covenant worship in the community of God. Um, and what we're doing, we're doing together. It's it's in a communal fashion. There's going to be some ritual to it, which is actually good for you. Um, it is not a bad thing to worship God uh together in a consistent, formatted way where you grow. And I think about patterns for learning. When you work out, like when you exercise, you follow consistent patterns in a habitual way where you're growing and learning how to get better at it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:I think about even, you know, exercising, it's like you start and it's a little awkward and fumbly, and you're just trying to like, you know, copy other people and the movements that you're making. And at some point you actually start to feel your own muscles and find out where it's supposed to be exactly and where you're getting the best work in on it. I think our worship is supposed to be like that. You know, how am I learning? What are the rhythms for me that are teaching me to grow in strength in this area? How am I making uh a liturgy out of my day? How am I making a liturgy out of, you know, the the the repetition that I have? And am I getting stronger in those areas? Or to your point, am I leaving, you know, the same weight on every single time and still just trying to mimic everyone else? There has to be an there has to be an area where it's uh growing. Do you have patterns throughout the day for you that you feel like are uh, you know, uh let's say rhythms of grace?
SPEAKER_02:I'm like, I should. Uh some days, yeah, I thrive. Some days only some days I do not. I will say during the season of moving and you know, starting a church and not having an actual place to go on Sundays. It's like, okay, well that's kind of out, you know.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um but throughout the week, you know, I try my best, you know, to start in prayer.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um I have found when I in that sounds so bad, but like too busy, quote unquote.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:To have time to sit down and just like open my Bible for 20 minutes and read through scripture and just work on things, it's like I will do my best. Like, I have some scripture memorized, and so I will go through that in my head more out loud or more prayer talking with God. Yeah, um, but if I can't find time to just sit, more children won't stop talking to me, throw in some headphones, play the Bible app. And I'm like, just every time that you read your Bible, it doesn't have to be this mind-blowing, wow, I got so much. I had two hours, I could just sit in this. This was so great.
SPEAKER_04:Not every those times are awesome. Yeah, not every exercise are you gonna hit a you know, a PR, you know, your personal record.
SPEAKER_02:But sometimes it's just the act of like, no, I'm gonna listen to the Bible because I know that I need to be immersed in the Word of God right now. And this is what I can do.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Yeah, I was thinking about uh getting up even just the other day and praying through, you know, Psalm 37 with you and just just spending an hour just back and forth in prayer. Yes, and uh help, you know, kicking the day off, you know, that way. And yeah, even though Sunday mornings aren't a thing right now, having people over to our house and doing worship and prayer together and getting into the Bible together, those things are those things are key. I just think um for everybody listening, think about ways that you're uh adding liturgy into your day. What are the what are the unique rhythms that I'm doing with God to help me grow in personal love and obedience for Him, where it's complementing my heart posture. You know, I'm falling more in love with God and I'm growing stronger in my faith as a process and learning to worship in in a more effective way. And I think for some people that seems strange. Like I I feel like I I uh met several people who feel like, yeah, I prayed the prayer, I'm saved, I'm going to church on Sundays and I'm trying to be a good person. Is there more? Yes. So much more. Yes, there's so much more. Like it's not something that you just do and now I've done it and I'm in. I'm I I say I'm a Christian now. No, no, like do that with your marriage and watch it fall apart.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_04:Do that with your job. And it although I realize the the joke on the internet right now is the guy that says, uh, yeah, nothing for my end. Uh uh, thanks though. You know what I mean? It moves on and continues to survive. But I I feel like the the point is to grow and get better at what you're actually doing and how you're actually trying to fall more in love with Jesus. And um, I think it's important for us to have some kind of personal liturgy uh that should overflow into what's happening on a Sunday. Because if Sunday sucks for you and you know, corporate worship isn't great and you're not getting getting much from the word, it could be that you are the person who is not working on their heart posture, you're not prostrating your heart. It could be that you don't have any personal liturgy that you're walking out in your own life, uh, and then what's happening is you're getting there on Sunday, and other people are able to glean and grow, and you are not, because they're able to lift weights that you can't even imagine, but you think you're doing the same thing. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02:I do, but I also think sometimes that's just a you problem. Like if you're not everywhere you're going where you're trying to interact with the Lord and you're not gleaning or getting things, you probably should sit down and talk to God about that. Like make it some rhythms in your daily life. Like, what should I be getting? You know, like I just think if you go to church and you're hearing every single week you're just not getting anything. Probably, I mean, you know, sometimes it might not be you. Yeah. But but oftentimes it is going to be you. It is gonna be that you are just focused on this should benefit me in this way.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And it's not always about you. Most of the time it's not about you.
SPEAKER_04:Shut up. It turns out worship is about God.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_02:Um, but if your goal is to feel more holy or feel more sanctified, or feel like, oh man, that was just so amazing. I just so experienced the spirit. Some days, yeah, you do, but sometimes you're going in obedience to the Lord and you're going and you're gonna feel conviction. Yeah, or it's gonna feel like, whoa, that was really hard to get here because probably what you heard was really important and you need to apply it.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So that you can worship better.
SPEAKER_04:Yep. Yeah. It's uh even even in our relationship. Like I talk about this on the podcast frequently, I feel like so. Are we always just madly in love with each other? Always.
SPEAKER_00:Guys, everything he's told you, we are so always head over giggle.
SPEAKER_04:What you guys can't hear is her giggling in between everything that I say because she's just it's just crazy how much she cares.
SPEAKER_00:So much love. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:I I love my wife, and I know you know you love me, but I also know that it's an intentional thing that we do on a daily basis to try to grow in that. We apologize a lot, we talk to each other. Um, even just the other day, I was like, can we just stop? We're just gonna go take 20 minutes and just sit in the we're just gonna talk because I I want to be in a good place with you, and I want to make sure that we're maintaining our relationship. And sometimes I think we don't think that way with God. You know, yeah, we uh we don't think it's it's going to be like an everyday intentional thing to draw close and to, you know, the the biblical word is abide or meno, right? Like to to be functionally with and in fellowship with. And it blows my mind that there can be people out there using the name of Christ, saying they're a Christian, who have prayed a prayer, who are not in fellowship with God at all.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_04:Like it it's not a thing.
SPEAKER_02:And I think to tie that into the marriage of I've said the prayer, I'm a Christian, I'm doing this, just not really working out for me. I'm not really experiencing things with this. It's it's these whole I mean, it's just rampant right now. Divorce is like there was not an issue.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Like I heard the story of this lady, she's like, I just um I was gonna redo my kitchen. Um, and what I learned is actually I needed to divorce my husband because I just wasn't happy. It's like, well, that wasn't the problem. Like, none of that should have connected at all. But it's like you can focus so much on one thing that you completely miss what you're supposed to be doing.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Like, oh yeah, well, we're married, but we don't actually be intimate. We don't go on dates, we don't spend time talking, we're just it's he's not it's not like when we were dating, it's not so exciting anymore. It's like it's not always going to be. That doesn't mean it's not the best thing ever.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, unless you're married to me. You know, it's always exciting, always exciting and 100% all the time. But but I think people treat their relationship with God that way too. Right. That's if God isn't making me happy right now, then I'm gonna find something else that will.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_04:It's his fault because I did the things. You know what I mean? And I'm not I'm not feeling the way that I should right now. You know, I'm not connecting the way that I want. I I think that's a it's a real freaking problem right now with our hedonistic culture where personal happiness is the point. But ironically, those people are always like the I hate to say they're you know, that that lady is probably 50 years old with no kids and miserable at this point. You know what I mean? Like, it doesn't actually take you to a place where things are better or you're more happy. You get more miserable and more convinced of your happiness in the misery. It's it's such a weird, like backwards thing, but it's a principle of let's say the dark kingdom, if you want to think about it that way.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_04:And there's a kingdom of light where you grow and you find joy and you do these things that are not, let's say, natural to you at first, but God. Is calling you into that. Um, and I think there's it's really important that we figure that out. The the other area I wanted to talk about with regard to this is resources, worshiping God with resources, because you have um strength, right? So you have, you know, with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength here, with all your heart, with all your mind, with all your strength. Strength here doesn't just denote my physical ability, it's talking about what I actually have, the things that I have. And you have had to be married to a pastor um for a while. And even before I was a pastor, I was still a pastor. You know what I mean? And that meant people over at our house all the time. That meant me spending money on uh people and their circumstances that would put us in a hard spot frequently, like talk to me about that for a sec.
SPEAKER_02:The hardest part of that was that the first half of it I wasn't saved. Um, and so it was like, what is the point? This doesn't serve us. I don't understand. It was like, well, now you're just not around me, now you're with other people. So it's very selfish, of course. Um now I I mean I find joy in it now. Yeah, like we have people over every single night.
SPEAKER_04:And right now, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Right now, and it's fun. I mean, it's fun. Can it be exhausting? Certainly, anything can be exhausting, but I think just you you bring up resources and I think you know, financial resources when you're yeah, while we're paying for other people to eat dinner with us, or you're taking people out, or whatever, and it's like the thing, if God didn't continue providing, it would be like, Well, maybe we should talk about this. Yeah. Maybe you're not doing it the way that you're supposed to, but the fact is God is always every single time provided. Yeah, and so we've never been in a place where like I don't think we can pay rent. Like that's never happened.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And so I think when you're spending your resources on what you're supposed to be doing and the things that God's called you to do, He's going to provide.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. When you're using your resources for worship, right? Like these belong to Him. I'm investing in the kingdom and what He's called us to do. It may not look the way that the world, you know, uh measures success or different things, but even as I was thinking about you know, the Beatitudes and Jesus bringing this upside down kingdom, you know, and blessed are the poor in spirit. That's weird. Blessed are those who mourn. You know, I'm like this, uh it does it doesn't make a lot of sense, but in this same vein, uh, Jesus uh takes the bread and the fish and the feeding of the you know five thousand and he blesses it and he breaks it. And again, it's this picture in the kingdom that when God takes something and blesses it and it's used for worship, for some reason, we all know why, but for some reason it keeps going, it works, it shouldn't work. That doesn't make sense in like earthly terms. But if you take something and you make it worship, suddenly it's multiplying and doing things. And here's what's funny like you fed everybody for a day. What was the point?
SPEAKER_02:Especially because a few chapters later it's like they completely forgot that you did that.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, and not just that, but like that's a lot of effort, you know what I mean, on everybody's part. Gosh, hosting that 20,000 bread. 20,000 people, everybody's getting sat down, and you know, you got screaming kids and everything else. I mean, come on, you know that environment. We're about it. We're about it. Bring all the bring all your children. It's gonna be awesome. But there's something about worshiping with your strength being what you have, what you've worked for, your finances, the things that you own, leveraging that. So it starts in this heart posture, it ends in this, or it's it, you know, continues in this daily liturgy and how am I giving my heart, uh, my life to God, finding rhythms in my own life where I'm drawing near to him and growing in strength. And then that strength, how it manifests, needs to be poured out to the people around me. And and I just think whether it's man, the the fence that I put in, I want it to be a blessing not just to me, but to my neighbors and to the the next couple generations of kids. I'm not gonna put it in with wheat concrete. I want it to, I want it to be solid work. I I want the you know, the the people that I'm helping, the cars that we're working on, the stuff that we're doing, my strength should go towards, like what Jesus said. If somebody asks you to walk a mile with them, go the extra mile. Somebody asks for you know your coat, give them your tunic too. There should be this idea in the kingdom of multiplication that doesn't make sense. And and I think this is in part, again, why you know the this the the inheritance of the land and this idea of God prospering the land and things happening um that you see just replete throughout scripture, ultimately worship is bringing about the renewal of all things. Real worship doesn't just transform an individual, doesn't just transform a life, it doesn't just transform a community or a church. It if everybody is growing in their ability to worship and their, like I said, the comp the Shema, their their heart, their mind, their strength or their heart, soul, mind, and strength, however the translation is, there's this comprehensive thing where it literally blesses and builds everything around it, and now you're actually building the kingdom. And I think the kingdom is flourishing when worship is happening, which means when we prostrate ourselves to the king, the the actual principle is there's a tenfold return. And you break the loaves and you break the fish, and it just works because there's a different set of rules that the kingdom is using that our world doesn't know or understand in any kind of way. And I feel like we've seen that again and again again. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But I even think with that is because 100% what you're saying, but it comes from a place of living out of your comfort.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:To achieve any of that, it has to be uncomfortable. Like I feel like we've talked to so many people, like, I don't know how you do that. You know, it's like you're just hosting all the time, you know this. I'm like, I do it because the Lord asked me to do it. Does it mean it every single time I want to? Absolutely not. No, but I think because God, He always shows up in the places where you are not going to be able to do it yourself, just like the bread and the fish, you know? Like He's going to grow the things that you are offering to him in worship. If he's saying, Hey, do this, you you can say no. It's not a good idea, but you could tell him no. And if you do that, I think you can live in this phantom comfort where it's like, okay, well, we are not gonna do a couple extra things because it's just better family time. Well, what if your better family time is getting around other believers and showing them what it looks like to grow disciples and to grow in your faith and to grow in your walk so that you can worship the Lord properly? Yeah. Because if you're constantly, well, we're just in family time, yeah, you could be reading the Bible together and that's awesome too. Like there is a place for that. But sometimes family time is like, let's teach you how to exist around other people so that generational blessing and generational things continue.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Well, and to your point, that starts in the family too. So, like, uh if you are doing your Bible time and your kids show up and uh you're not willing to invite them in, you know what I mean? If you're doing prayer time and you're not willing to then teach your kids how to pray with you, if your religious life, and I'm gonna say it that way on purpose, is disconnected from your family, then obviously it's going to be disconnected from the world as well. Right. But if you're willing to invite your kids in, great, that's step two. I'm really proud of you. But if you stop there and then are unwilling to invite other people into that, you're missing the progression of internal, liturgical, now giving my strength to other places. And you're gonna teach your kids to be selfish themselves. And they'll be they'll be using uh, let's say, these, let's say, rituals that God has given to us in a secular sense, which is worship is ultimately for personal peace. Worship is more like meditation, where I'm just uh now I feel better. I got a better mental, you know, setup. I feel, I just feel like, man, that time. Um, I feel like worship so often is used like like so many other uh, let's say, uh I'm trying to think of the best way to put this intellectual piece kind of religion. It's transcendental meditation, it's yoga. You know what I mean? It's it's uh it's meditating on these particular words, it's it's thinking long and hard about the things that I really want to attract them to myself, you know, and it's it's this kind of nonsense that is is not really a biblical picture of worship at all. What Jesus did when he prayed, he was not like going up there and now I feel better and I feel more peaceful. He was going up there because every single day he needed to learn and grow and get closer with the Father so that he could continue to endure how he was going to be poured out and what that I would actually functionally look like in the life that he lived.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_04:You know, God, who are the disciples that you're wanting me to pick? You know, he goes and he's praying, and then he goes and he gets these guys, or he's sending his, you know, his disciples out on the lake and he goes up and spends time with God before he goes and walks out into the storm. Our worship is supposed to drive us to using our strength. Our heart posture is supposed to drive what we're doing outward. And I think our our world is inverted worship, yeah. Um, so that I'm doing all these things to get away from all of this stuff and to spend personal time really making sure that I have peace so that I can be more of a peace-giving person to everyone else. But but let's be honest, you're you're uh you're not built that way. It's not supposed to function that way. And it gets back a little bit to what you were saying about fear. And I I think there's a real um aspect here where the fear of the Lord should drive you to do things in a different way. It's the fear of the Lord that allows us to be able to honestly worship um because if you are the end-all be-all, what you're saying is I I only fear what's getting in the way of me getting what I want, as opposed to I have a king and a Lord and my God that I serve, and I fear him because of what he is capable of and the truth of what reality is. And that draws me to prostrate myself before him. That drives me to carry his strength and his commandments and his um the things that he has called us to do into my daily life, lest I slip back into the darkness and become like these people who use worship as a as a as a um a way of uh finding personal peace instead of communing with the Almighty.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I I think it's I think it's a big deal. So like when um when I think about this, uh I was talking was it last night we were in the Bible and we were talking about this? Yeah. Just the idea that people have of peace in general is so funky. Like peace from a scriptural term. Okay, so Jesus is the Prince of Peace, right? The Prince of Peace who's trotting the wine press of his wrath and his robes are dipped in blood. That's a weird Prince of Peace. Super calm. But I think we think of Prince of Peace, we're thinking like, you know, everything's gonna be chill. Yeah, it's the it's the how come the Prince of Peace is always sending people into chaos? How come the Prince of Peace is always involved in hard work? How come the Prince of Peace is always, you know, surrounded by people who are trying to kill him? How come in the upside down kingdom, you know, in the um the Beatitudes, he's like, Blessed are those who persecute you and say all kinds of terrible things about you because they did that to the prophets, you know, great is your reward in heaven. God, what does blessing mean? What does peace mean? And I think we receive peace in worship through the Prince of Peace, not as a state of mind that so many people are interested in. I don't even like when people say I prayed and I have a peace about it. I don't think that means anything. Like oftentimes, if you pray, uh God's usually giving you something to do that you won't have peace about because it's frustrating and you don't really want to do that. Uh our producer Fred frequently reminds me that um uh he he moved down here to Texas with this to help plant King's Banner. And he was like, I hate Texas. He's like, I would not be here if God did not call me to do this. And I think that that to me is actually looking for peace. And here's why. I want peace with my king. I'm not looking for feeling internal peace, and therefore I know that God is good. He's looking for peace with God and not setting himself up against God. And in, you know, in John 14, it talks about um this, the the you know, the Prince of Peace. And I think about, oh man, I just want to let go to this text. Give me two seconds. I don't have my computer up right now, I just have the actual Bible. Um I'm trying to anyways, uh I'll find it in a little bit. But the the idea is that God is coming and and offering us peace. And when he's offering us peace, the idea should not be for us that he's trying to give us intellectual rest. It's that he's actually offering us terms of peace. And if you don't take the terms of peace, you're actually in war. If you don't take the terms of peace from a conquering king, what that means is I've declared war against God. If you if there's a larger army that surrounds your, you know, your area and is and is offering you terms of peace, it's a way of saying, yes, I'm going to submit to this and trust you and we'll live by your rules. And if you set yourself against that king, what you're saying is, no, I'm declaring war against the Prince of Peace, and you will not have peace. Now you can sit and meditate inside of your city before the whole thing burns down. Uh, and and and well, I'm so happy for you to have a little um delusion, you know what I mean, before it all crashes down around you. And I think that's the way a lot of people are living, is in this kind of delusion where I found peace. And then the lady who divorced, you know, her husband, right? The because it wasn't the kitchen she needed change to it was her relationship.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:She's finding uh some form of you know, intellectual or or mindset peace that is actually creating destruction.
SPEAKER_02:Well, because she's agreeing with a lie. So essentially you're agreeing with Satan. So then you're worshiping that.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Yeah. And and her fear is not uh losing the actual things that matter. Her her fear is losing personal peace.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_04:Right? It's not a it's not the peace that God is offering, it's a different peace. That's the verse I was thinking of. My peace I give to you, I do not give as the world gives it. Right? Like it's it's a I'm not talking about what everybody else is thinking. Now, to be clear, is there intellectual peace that comes with knowing that I'm not going to burn in hell for all of eternity and that Christ has sacrificed himself so that I could have new life and have a relationship with him? Right, right. There's a type of peace that comes with knowing who your God and who your king is, but that doesn't mean he's leading you into the type of peace that our world offers.
SPEAKER_02:Which I think is the saying that peace equals happiness.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:That would be what the world is saying. Peace is happiness. Well, no, that's not true. Peace, I think, is a state of being where you trust that it could all shatter immediately, but as long as you hold fast to the Lord, right? Like it's going to be okay.
SPEAKER_04:I have peace because I I am part of the kingdom of peace where the king of peace resides and he has given me peace. It's something that guards me. It's not something that I'm trying to hold on to. And if something is attacking, you know, my uh my mental wellness in this particular moment, um, I it needs to be jettisoned. And I think uh when we talk about kids, households, inviting people over, giving of our resources, personal liturgy, humility and heart posture, this Shema. When I lie down, when I rise up, all that I am goes to God. I'm living a lifestyle of peace with my king, not pursuing some delusional peace that's detached from the actual things that God has called us to build. And it's really important that we we get that right. Worship, true worship, is a state of being, I think, where you're finding peace with God because you're walking out what He's called you to do. And is there a peace in knowing that everything that happens uh in my pursuit of Christ is important and ordained and supposed to happen this way? Yes, and that's glorious, but that doesn't mean it's gonna feel like puppies and daisies, roses and unicorns and sleepovers and all the things that come along with that.
SPEAKER_02:I think it's knowing that every single thing, every moment that you are doing something, you should be able to connect it to the Lord somehow. Whether that's in gratitude, whether that's I'm afraid of this, so I need to talk this through with the Lord, whether it's talking to your kids about something that God's showing you or teaching you, yeah, or some example of how this is in in correlation with the with God. Like it all connects, and so your worship should come be coming out through your entire day.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Because it's overflowing from being able to see God in every aspect.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Yeah. I think uh ultimately peace is something that happens when we're walking out what God has called us to do because it's extending uh goodness and order and light and life and hope into a world that is saturated and a delusion of peace while actually everything is burning down a road. And I think as we look at our nation today, we're seeing everyone incredibly distracted and kind of wandering without purpose and looking not for actual peace, but anesthesia, what's what's the word? Anas anesthesia? The no I keep trying to think of some kind of anesthetic. That's what I was getting to. They're trying to numb out what's actually going on with drugs and uh all the all the things that we allow from the pharmaceutical side as well. That well, oh well, it's you know, it's I'm medicated, it's a medical condition. Well, listen, our uh our system is not totally put together there either. And we got people who are like doing psilocybin and mushrooms and all this stuff, and like, yeah, but man, I feel so much better and I don't struggle with this anymore. And it's like, I don't know that that's ultimately the goal. Praise God for good medication that helps in the common grace for certain circumstances, I get that. I just think our world is inundated with a pharmaceutical, um, and not just that, but uh, but just uh taking drugs in general where you shouldn't be all component.
SPEAKER_02:I think if you can create a numbness and create a distraction in the mind, you can control people. You know, so if you convince people, oh, little boys aren't supposed to be rambunctious and little warriors, no, they freaking are. Yeah, that's where they're supposed to be. When I had I was tutoring a class of like eight little boys, and it was crazy, and the moms were apologizing, apologizing. I'm like, no, this is good.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:We just have to teach them how to handle it.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, it's a different kind of peace. Yeah. Which means they're gonna be the boys who actually go to war and fight for peace.
SPEAKER_02:The things that matter. Yeah, they're they're not instead of just living in a delusion that it's fine. It's all fine.
SPEAKER_04:What do you what do you think are the delusions? Uh let's and I'm using this term to mean uh attempting to find a false sense of peace that does not accurately reflect what God has called us to do in particular moments. What do you feel like are the delusions that uh women maybe struggle with the most, or moms or or ladies in general?
SPEAKER_02:Hmm. I think believing I just turn on Instagram, open that up, and just look around. You have to look a certain way, your kids have to be dressed a certain way. It's a whole so it's like a comparison. It's all comparison. It's believing that if you have the best curtains and the best rug, like everything's gonna look amazing, your house is put together.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:You know, I think it's um if I have friends and we go to wine bars and we have hot goss, like you, your delusion is in this false, I mean, just relationships, feminine relationships.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:That's and friendships, the way they do it.
SPEAKER_04:I feel like it's always built around a type of security.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:You know, like I I feel like for for ladies, it's always built around a false sense of security. If I just had this thing, if I just had this man, if I just didn't have this man anymore, and I was able to do the thing that I wanted to do.
SPEAKER_02:It's always a lie that comes back to yourself.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, if I just looked this way, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I think somehow you accomplish greatness when everything's checked and everything's online. It's like, no, that's there's no you're never gonna reach a point where everything's just exactly how you want it to be.
SPEAKER_04:Well, I think if you live in that delusion long enough, you start to see your kids as an affront to your peace. You start to see your family as an affront, and the second that somebody is is really calling you to a standard or something else, suddenly, oh, they're well, they're just a toxic friend. You know, they're just they're just a toxic person. And you know, I just I think it's important that we we understand what those things are. I think men are constantly trying to find um, like their delusion is often it's pornography. You know what I mean? I'm trying to find peace in this particular thing, and this helps me feel much better about myself, or uh they're trying to find peace in partying, uh, or they're trying to find peace. Uh I'm just I'm throwing this out here in sports. I'm living vicariously through this team, and it's not accomplishing anything in my life or anything God has called me to do, but dang it, it is a great distraction that helps me feel a little bit of rest. Uh, I think politics is another one that people can get um jammed up in. And look, you should be involved in politics, you should be aware of what's going on. But man, if your if your family is suffering, if your uh personal relationship with God is suffering, if your church is suffering, if you're not doing all the other things that God has called you to do, it might be a delusion. And I've watched a lot of people who believe that if I'm staying on top of everything that's going on and I know all of the details, even though I can't act on any of it right now, somehow I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing. No, knowledge only goes so far.
SPEAKER_02:Well, and if you look at how much time you pour in is, you know, it's like you have to spend this much time learning about all the politics and all the things, or are you spending like what's your Bible time look like?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:What's your because that's a that's an indication of your worship as well. Like, what are you thinking about the most?
SPEAKER_04:I've I frequently say this on here too, but my how uh I'm doing in my relationship with you usually tells me a lot about where I'm at with God, too. Uh if my relationship with you is not great, probably my prayer time and my time of worship and that personal liturgy is falling off. And if I'm doing really well with you, it's usually because my time with the Lord and my personal liturgy is going well. And um I will say this for married couples especially. If you and your wife are synced up in your hearts and you're synced up, you know, that heart disposition we talked about in that personal daily liturgy makes it a lot easier to give of your resources, uh, give your, you know, your strength to the Lord together. And I think that's one of the difficulties with um being married. A lot of times is if you're not synced up, uh, trying to actually worship God as one flesh when you're living in two ways uh is incredibly difficult. So I would just tell people, man, finding time to ask each other, how's your Bible time? How's your prayer? What's your heart doing right now? How are you doing? You know, like you said earlier, practicing the four R's, catching thoughts when they're coming in when they shouldn't be. And I would say identifying convenient delusions that you are using to avoid um being a peacemaker and being the kind of person who is bringing worship into what they're doing and not making it something that's about um, you know, anesthetizing the the you know the frustration I'm going through, but embracing that frustration because the Prince of Peace has called you to make war with those things. So we're we're about out of time. Any final thoughts?
SPEAKER_02:I think the last thing I just want to say is to moms is uh you can see your kids as um taking away from everything you're supposed to be doing or getting in the way or distracting, and then you can believe this lie that that it's just I should be able to have even even with your Bible time, I should be able to sit down and have my hot cup of tea and be able to open my Bible and write some things down. Um, but then my baby woke up early.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:That doesn't mean you can't sit and do the exact same thing with your baby on your lap.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Like that's really important.
SPEAKER_04:And how important is it for you that baby to grow up seeing mom fight to do those things?
SPEAKER_02:Right, because then they're gonna do the same thing.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But if you always push them to the side, or if you always see it as an interruption, you're gonna miss, you're gonna miss so much.
SPEAKER_04:Well, you're fantastic, and um I love when we randomly get an opportunity to jump on and do this. I'm gonna I'm gonna say a quick prayer for everybody and then we'll get out of here. God, I pray this week that people would get their hearts right before you, Lord. Their hearts would worship you, that we would uh prostrate ourselves, Lord, our hearts. Um, Lord, this week I pray that everybody would actually find an actual opportunity to kneel and pray to you. Lord, I pray that you would teach people uh daily liturgies for how to fall more in love with you and grow in strength and worship. And God, I pray that you would bless and break our resources to be a blessing around us, Lord. May we uh see righteousness exalt our nation. But before that, Lord, uh, that righteousness would be loved and fought for and hungered for in our homes. And in that, our families and our communities and our churches, Lord, I believe when worship of the King, worship of you, Lord Jesus, is happening, everything gets better. Teach us to do that well, Lord. Strengthen us in it and uh make us more effective in it in Jesus' name. Amen. Awesome. Love you guys. Have a fantastic week and talk to you soon.
