Navigate Podcast
Welcome to Navigate, we are two long term friends doing life and ministry together. I got tired of the same ole answers when I started looking for help when it came to my walk with God. So together we go deeper than most would on topics that most people have heard or were taught but never fully understood. It is our way of simplifying concepts that we may have over complicated throughout our lives. Bringing theology and life experience into each episode. It is our hope and desire to help Navigate your Christian walk with you
Navigate Podcast
Desperation
What if “desperation for God” isn’t panic, but a holy ache that reshapes how you live, love, and obey? We get honest about the ways fear sneaks into prayer, why gratitude changes the room, and how fixing our eyes on Jesus turns wave-management into real faith. Along the way, we pull from David’s psalms, Peter on the water, Isaiah undone by glory, and Jeremiah’s fire-in-the-bones to map a path from encounter to commission—because presence that invites us close also sends us out.
We talk about the two desperations: one that springs from distrust and makes prayer a last-ditch Hail Mary, and one born from meeting God that breeds humility, conviction, and obedience. You’ll hear why starting with gratitude kills faithless frenzy, how to recognize “sonship” in the way you ask, and why avoiding a hard conversation at home can be more disobedient than declining a faraway mission. We also unpack the Mary/Martha tension, the delivered man who wanted to stay but was sent, and the quiet ways love matures into courage when you throw your heart over the bar.
If you’ve been stuck seeking constant confirmations, numbing your soul, or chasing promises more than the Promiser, this conversation offers a reset. We offer simple practices to “catch fire”: sit near burning people, ask God for fresh hunger, and cut the anesthetics that dull your attention. The result isn’t louder striving—it’s a clearer gaze and a steadier yes.
If this resonated, follow the show, share it with a friend who needs courage today, and leave a review with the one line that stood out most to you. Your voice helps others find their way back to a living pursuit of God.
Guys, welcome back to navigate. I'm with Justin.
SPEAKER_01:You you opening up the podcast is so much better than me doing it. Just so we just so we're clear.
SPEAKER_00:I think the last few weeks have proven that I don't need to be here.
SPEAKER_01:So uh I mean I feel like it proves that um I I'm willing to hold this thing together until you get back because I'm that dedicated to Timothy Brown. Well Timothy David Brown.
SPEAKER_00:Well, thanks for inviting me back. Appreciate it. Now you all know his middle name is David. You're welcome.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I have such a common name. It's embarrassing. Timothy David?
SPEAKER_01:Is that a is that a common name?
SPEAKER_00:Brown. Like that's my last name.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, sure, Brown, but that's that's okay. You're you're white. So being white and a brown, that that's that's that's pretty that's pretty clutch, man. That's like being a that's like being a panda, you know? Black and white and Asian.
SPEAKER_00:Panda. Yeah, that's true.
SPEAKER_01:Best case scenario.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but uh, yeah, I had some life stuff happen. So Justin took over. Yes. Well, I mean, it's really kind of yours now, anyway.
SPEAKER_01:Got moved into a new place that's awesome. Yeah, making moves family.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's legit. Been busy, been busy.
SPEAKER_01:But how are you? Doing good, man. We're um yeah, just in this uh adventure of planning this church. Got uh some new families from Texas that we're connecting with and meeting with that have jumped in and want to be a part of uh King's Banner Church, man. Got vision meetings we're rolling, did our first guys night last night with cigars and a campfire to the glory of God. And it was like the biggest moon I think I've ever seen outside last night. And it was just over the over the fields, you know what I mean? And over the over the trees, and it felt like uh, I don't know, like like in Colorado, there would definitely be some witches out there howling at the moon. But here in Texas, it's just you know, it's just a it's just a good moon.
SPEAKER_00:You wrote a song about it, you know. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You know, I I try to avoid writing songs uh these days, but back in the day, I'm sure I would have had tears in my eyes and been overly emotional and you know, ready to ready to write something real gay. You know, you know when you sing a song and there's like glitter coming out, yeah, it would have been would have been really bad. Yeah, yeah. So nay so nasally too. It's my wife's one frustration with she's like, when you sing, it's just nasally. I'm like, well, thank you. Who asked you?
SPEAKER_00:I always thought you did fine singing to be honest. But I want to let's jump into this uh topic.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, yeah, lead us, lead us home too.
SPEAKER_00:Um this idea of desperation for God.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:What biblical sense does that make?
SPEAKER_01:Being desperate for God?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, like I see it with the prophets and stuff. You can see it all throughout the Bible, but for me personally, I'm like, is being desperate for God meaning I have to be poor and broke and struggling and stressed out all the time, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Man, that's such a weird combination of thoughts there. I'm gonna try to untangle that. Give me a second. When I think about desperation for God, I think about it in two categories. One is my life is a total freaking mess. Everything is falling apart, and I'm desperate for God because I really need breakthrough. I really need help. Like it's it's not good right now. And when you're praying like that, um, and look, those prayers are uh God receives those prayers. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but I think in those moments, I don't know that you're praying as a son, I think you're praying as a slave. And are we slaves to Christ? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I'm not trying to get theological here, more just like um more from a conversation about identity. God, I don't think, is looking for you to grovel to get what you want or to have a desperation that is actually rooted in a deep distrust for what he's doing in your life. And I think if your prayers are, God, you're not doing what I I thought you would do, and I really need you to come through because this thing is falling apart, or this is breaking, or my dreams aren't happening, or whatever. Like, I don't know that those are prayers from the position of sonship that he's given us, which is I got you, it's gonna be okay. What I'm doing in your life is a good thing, even if it feels like hell right now, I got you, I'm gonna take you through this. We we it I almost it's a good thing to cry out to God, it's a good thing to um make petition, it's a good thing to ask him for things, but I also think that prayers from deep places of of distrust or faithlessness, um, I don't know that those honor God, or I don't know that I would call that good desperation. Although I would, man, take you praying and crying out to God rather than not crying out to God in those moments. But I think there's something to be said about if your life is falling apart only because um you're focusing on all the things that God is not uniquely doing in that moment, that may not be that may not be a good heart posture for prayer. Like, like if you start your prayers with gratitude, um usually desperation uh in a negative sense can die pretty quickly because you realize he's the God that's come through a thousand times for you and has answered a thousand prayers for you, and has got you and has had you, you know, for all this time and has done so many good things in your life. Suddenly you like breathe out and you're like, uh okay, now I can start asking for forgiveness and petitioning for things without a heart that is fragile and panicking because of a lack of faith. Yeah. Gratitude really breeds faith in your prayers and the, like I said, the negative type of desperation I think can can go away. Now, I'm not gonna lie, David prays some prayers sometimes that are like, God, kill my enemies because they all want to destroy me. But even those prayers aren't the God, you abandoned me, what am I doing? You know what I mean? That those prayers almost always end with, but I know you're with me, I know you're good, I know you're doing these things. Um, that's sonship. We should pray knowing God is my father, and I am his child. And as his child, I know he's gonna take care of me, even if I don't understand in this moment what he's doing. So I would just caution people desperation is not coming from a faithless place where you're trying to throw a Hail Mary and hoping that God does it because I'm desperate. Your prayer was your last, you know, recourse for whatever is going on in your life. Uh, you're already missing it because prayer is supposed to be our first response. We're going to God to talk to a God about what's going on. It's a lot like um your marriage falling apart for a long time and then you trying one last thing before divorce rather than working on your marriage throughout this process. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but it's definitely not the best, and um we can do better.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:The good Oh, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00:I was gonna has this ever happened to you, though, like if you're in desperation, you're praying to God, he answers that prayer, and it's like, okay, great, thank you. Now what about this thing over here?
SPEAKER_01:And look at that. The desperation is now gone because it wasn't about God, it was about the situation.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but now you're worrying about another thing, and then it just kind of just keeps it. So fast, you know, in a minute.
SPEAKER_01:So fast, man. Yeah, I mean, and it's like the second one thing gets fixed, there's gonna be another that's coming, which is why, like, imagine being Peter and you're seeing Jesus, you know, walking on the waves, and you get out of the boat, and it look just just paint, just go here with me for a second, okay? Because it says he starts to look at the waves and the wind, and that's when he starts to sink. You know, and do you think in his mind, uh imagine it this way like there's a wave and he's praying for this wave to go away, and the wave goes away, and then there's another wave, and he prays for that wave to go away, and then that wave goes away, and there's another wave. You know what I mean? Like you you're just not focusing on the right thing right now. Like that is not that is not the goal. The goal is not to get all these waves to go away, ultimately, because then because then what? What's what what are you doing? Well, I'm standing here and I'm okay now. Actually, you're not. Yeah, you're not, because your focus is not where it's supposed to be. The waves are not the point. The waves are supposed to help push you and get your focus on the right place so that your life wouldn't be about a series of frustrations that are driving you closer to God, but a life lived close to God that allows you to walk on the waves and see the frustrations as meaningful, important, and let's say guiding you into who you're meant to be and the impact that you're supposed to have. Yeah. Now, the holy desperation that I think you see all throughout in scripture is men who have been touched by the presence of God in a way where they will live their entire life working at um encountering him again in their life and in what they're doing. And I man, I feel this in my bones because I've just I've had so many times in my life, Tim, where I feel like I've just I've encountered the power of God in moments, the presence of God, where you in those moments, man, are just humbled and crushed by the love of God and and but so clear on who he is and what he is doing, and his authority and his goodness, you know, his attributes and character and majesty and all the things that come with knowing who he is. I mean, Tim, you've had moments in your life whether in worship or even just um let's make it let's maybe make it more practical. Uh, you ever been part of a group, Tim, where you just knew something unique is happening here? Yeah, like the presence of God is just moving. Like the connection level is at a 10, the authenticity level is at a 10, people's lives are getting changed, stuff's just happening, and and it's not just happening outside of you, it's happening inside of you. Something unique is going on, and it can only be attributed to the presence of God.
SPEAKER_00:It's those moments that I feel like things make sense.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, you know, yeah, and but but it's not that they make sense, it's that you don't actually feel like you need to have it all figured out because you know God's got it.
SPEAKER_00:Nothing else matters, yeah, like outside of that. Like there's been times where you know, being with you and stuff, we've tried to get the presence of God and it's worked, right? Sure. And then there's been moments where I'm just laying in bed just thinking, and then the presence of God shows up without even expecting being just gonna rocked, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01:So yeah, I I love that, and I think um, I think there are if you read through the Psalms, there's this picture of David constantly asking and and attempting to like get closer to God. I want to be in your presence, I want to be closer to you, I want to worship in the temple, you know. Uh uh, you know, uh I even if I'm if I'm outside, if I'm by the gate, you know, I mean, of where you are, it's better to be there than a thousand years anywhere else. Like he wants to be with God. And I think that's the sole longing of humanity is to be, and I'm saying this in a in a weird way, but like back in the garden with God. I don't just mean the garden, but I mean that presence of we're not separated from him, we're not cast out. I'm walking with God in the garden in the cool of the evening, and it is right. This is what it's supposed to look like. And I think when you have walked in darkness for a long time, or maybe you didn't know you were walking in darkness, and you experience God, you experience that, a sane person has two options. One is I'm never going to experience this again, so I'm just gonna I'm not even gonna try. And walks away and does his own thing, which is a weird thing, but I've seen it happen where somebody's like, uh, I just it's too much, it's too hard. You know, like it's a weird response. That I think the normal response to that is I want to spend the rest of my life pursuing this God. Yeah, I love him, and he loves me, and I experienced this, and and I know it's true now in my bones that a way that I didn't, I believe in his death, his burial, his resurrection, that Jesus is God. I have experienced this and I know what the Bible says is true. I think a good, godly, um, sane thing to do at that point is to have a deep desperation and desire to continue to know and fall more in love with this God. Yeah, a deep desperation desire to be close to him and to pursue him and to do the things that he has called you to do. And and most of these prophets in the old testament, Tim, like you know, you have the Isaiah's, right? You know, here the here am I, Lord, send me. Well, why is he saying this? Because he is seeing the Lord, the Lord of glory, you know, and I'm ruined. I'm I'm toast. I I'm a person of unclean lips. I come from a people of unclean lips, and I don't even know how I am allowed in this moment right now, but I'm nothing but just grateful and humbled and exhilarated and all the things that that come with getting touched by God in a unique way. And I think, you know, you you see this throughout scripture, whether it's Jeremiah's or Ezekiel's or or Isaiah's or all these prophets, they have these encounters with God and they spend the rest of their life pursuing obedience to that God and pursuing relationship with that God, even when it means frustration and difficulty and irritation are coming with it, and they most certainly will. Um, and I I think you know, in Jeremiah 20, um, you know, he talks about this, right? He's like, Man, God, you you tricked me because I yeah, I thought, you know, you wanted me to be a you know a prophet to the nations and do all this stuff, and and yeah, and I you know, and I go and I do all this, and then at every time I do, they're they're throwing me out and beating me up and burning my stuff, and that they hate me for it. And he's like, But if I say that I will not speak in your name, your word is in my heart like a fire shut up in my bones. I'm weary of holding it in, indeed I cannot. I think the point there is I'm so overwhelmed by your words and what you've said and who you are, that even when I don't want to and it's frustrating, I have a desperation to continue to do what you've called me to do and a desire to know you more because I know it's the truth. Yeah. And uh the whole the whole truth thing is is is the right word because the truth is sometimes inconvenient and frustrating, but it's also the thing that sets you free.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And it's for freedom that Christ has set us free, right? That we would live that way and pursue him in those ways. But I think true desperation shows up in humility because if you spent time in the in the presence of God, you're humbled by it. Uh it's it's shown in obedience because you actually want to walk out what God has called you to do, and it's marked by conviction because you're changed. There's a mark across your heart now, or the biblical term would be you have a new heart now. And it sucks sometimes to have that new heart, and it creates more desperation in you because you're like, I can't I can't do this without you. I don't ever want to do this again. This is what I've been called to do, and man, if you don't show up, we're all dead. Uh, I have got to I've got to draw near to you, I've got to be close to you. And um even guys like Paul, you know, he's like, Man, it'd be way better to be dead right now. You know, I I think to depart from you and be with the Lord would be far better, but I'm convinced that it is better for you if I stay. So I'm gonna I I'm convinced that I'm gonna be here and I'm gonna stay on to do what God has called me to do here. But they had a desire to know God, and even Paul, right? You know, he tells the story of his friend, quote unquote, you know, uh being caught up to the third heaven, and then he basically tells them, you know, if I can't talk to you about like earthly things and you get it, how am I gonna explain to you what it's like to be in the presence of God and have you get it? Yeah, like I just I can't explain that to you. And somebody who's got a real desperation for God is grasping at something that he can't get his hands on because you cannot grab onto the infinite, you can only be touched by it.
SPEAKER_00:I don't like the sense, this feeling of I can only have a relationship or feel closer to God if I'm desperate.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, I don't think desperation is always manifest in um uh like fear or worry or panic or like being manic. You know what I mean? Like it's not that, but um even even having a deep desire to go on a walk and talk to God is a type of soul desperation where you're like, man, I want to know him. Yeah, I I want to be changed by him. Um uh loving your wife in a particular way when it's difficult is still a desperation for God. God, I know there's a better way, and I want this, I want things to be put back to the way that they were meant to be, and I want that deep connection that I'm supposed to have with you not to just stop with me, but to move into everything else that's around me. And I I think that's a good thing. If you don't have a a deep desire to see the goodness of God extend past you and into the world around you, I don't think you have the heart of God um in mind, you know?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, how do you do that without falling to that trap of I'm only doing this to feel the presence of God?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you know, I've thought about this before. Um there's there's some truth here and there's some falsity here. I don't think it is ever a bad thing to want to experience the presence of God. I would never be like, oh man, you know, I'm a better Christian than you because I don't I don't care to be in the presence of God. I'm gonna do what he said. Like, I don't, dude, that's weird. All right, you know, whatever makes you feel better, but I don't think that's a godly thing. I think what we see mostly uh in scripture with people that love the Lord is a deep desire to spend time with them. Jesus is always getting after it, you know, and on mountaintops, praying and seeking the face of the Father. And um, I think we should have a deep desire and a desperation for the presence of God. But I don't think it's this desire that um takes you away from what God has called you to do. So if if he's called you to do something and you're so busy in your Bible and in prayer that you never get to what he's actually called you to do, well, that's disobedience too. Yeah, and that's kind of a a youthful Christianity that wants to be, you know, the it's the kid who wants to be with his mom all the time and doesn't want to grow up. Right. We get that you love your mom, but now do something about it. But that love shouldn't then go away. You shouldn't be like, well, I guess I'm moving out then. Well, no, like that's not the that's not the point. The the the two illustrations I like to use for this, Tim, are you you have the story in I think it's Luke, gosh, is it Luke 10, I think, with Mary and Martha, where you know, you got Mary and Martha, and Martha is is busy getting stuff done, and Mary's sitting at the Lord's feet learning and being taught, and Martha's pissed at Mary. She's like, What what could you could you have her help me? Yeah, at least because I'm doing the whole thing, and she's just chilling here, and and you know, Jesus is like Martha, Martha, you know, you listen. Anytime Jesus says your name twice, you know what I mean? It's like, oh no, oh no. But she's busy doing stuff, and and he tells her, Look, Mary's chosen a good thing. She's sitting here spending time with me. She gets that this is where she needs to be in this moment. You have the story in Mark chapter five, I think. I think it's Mark chapter five, with the demoniac who gets set free from all of these demons.
SPEAKER_00:From Legion.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's sitting at Jesus' feet, right? And then he basically tells him, I want you to go. I want you to go share all the stuff. And and he, I think if memory serves me right, he asks, like, he wants to go with Jesus. And Jesus is like, nope, I want you to go, I want you to go get this thing done. Which is like, but but you told Mary it was a good thing for her to choose to be here at my feet this whole time. How come I can't stay here? And sometimes it's like that when you're pursuing God. Um, man, I get to spend time in the presence of God, and I'm pursuing that. I want to, you know, let's say prepare the house for the presence of the Lord as often as I can because I want to spend time in his presence because that grows me as a person. I have a deeper connection with him. I know him, and I'm knowing myself in that process. Those are good things. But then God is going to take you and send you to do stuff. Like that's kind of the whole, kind of the whole point, is he's gonna take you with that desperation, having been touched by the presence of God. And now I'm sending you out to go be my, you know, my hands, my feet, an expression of myself, because I've given you something that other people do not have. And I want you to share that with them. I want you to go be uh an extension of the kingdom. Tell them that the king is coming, to uh tell them that you've tasted and you've seen that the fruit at the at the table of the Lord is so good, that this kingdom is so good, that his presence is so good, and you want to be, you know, you want to come and you want to be a part of this thing. But the presence of the God, uh the presence of God, sorry, doesn't just uh bid you to come, but it also commissions you to go. And and both of those things are key in a Christian's life. And so um I think there's both of those things kind of going on simultaneously. And when you are being a Martha and he's calling you to sh just shut up and sit down and just listen, I just want to spend time with you. It's really important that you do that, but also know there's going to be times when he is um he is uniquely calling you to go and do something, and that can be frustrating too. Hence all the prophets we were talking about who get a commission and have been touched by the presence of God and then get sent out into stuff, and they're like, I'm I want to go home though. I want to go back, you know, like it's and and of course we do. What like look, we're not um we're not made for the broken world that we currently live in, right? We're we're not of this world, but we are to make this world worthy of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, so that upon his return uh we would be able to usher in the fullness of what that presence and that power is supposed to look like that that we're meant to enjoy and we're created um to be a part of.
SPEAKER_00:There's always that fear though, right? It's like, God, what do you want me to do? And it's like, don't send me to Africa, don't send me to China, you know, don't don't do that. But I think that's a good live for you, you know.
SPEAKER_01:I think that's part of the desperation, though. It's like, man, how how serious are you about that? Because if you trust God and you know who he is and you actually you really do love Jesus, there's something in you that is like, I'll I'll do it. I'll do it. I mean, we we experience this with just let's say like love, the way that God has made us as men and women. Um, you know, you will do crazy things, crazy things, Tim, for a girl that you are in love with. You know, and you will just you will do insane things.
SPEAKER_00:Completely outside of yourself, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I will do crazy things for my daughters. I will do I'll do crazy things for my son. And I will tell you this if I ever found myself in a situation that I was away from them for longer periods of time, I'm willing to do even more than I am now. You know, there's a there's a connection and there's a depth and there's a oneness there that Christ references all the time when he's talking about our relationship with him and our relationship to the church and how we're supposed to be acting towards one another. There's uh there's a real conviction and uh let's say a typological desperation that we can see in each other when you find the person that you want to be with forever. Um would you you know if if if it came down to it and the girl of you know your dreams or the man of your dreams, if you're a lady is, you know, you listen to this, um, and they were like, Yeah, you can be with me, but but you have to go to Africa. I think most people would be like, Well, let's do it. If I'm with you, okay, let's go. Like, why? Because I'm supposed to be with you, and I just I found I found you now. Like this is this is amazing. Yeah, let's uh you want to live on Mars? Let's live on Mars. I don't know how it's gonna work, but let's let's figure it out. Um, I think that is modeled in in so many things. And we know, we know this. Like, we are at our best when our hearts are in that place. Yeah, we are at our absolute best as an individual when a love for something that is real and true and good has gripped our hearts. We become uh whatever we need to be to fulfill what God has called us to do. Now, this can get profane in a secular environment because you can like um leave who God has made you to be and uh you know just start simping and become some kind of person created in the image of the person that you like instead of maintaining the person that you are. And that that is something that I gotta you know coach younger guys on all the time. Uh there's a way to do it that is godly, and there's a way to do it that is not. But that same heart condition, that same passion that we see in our guts is something that is uniquely um uniquely spiritual. And I think if we under when we understand um a way with a man and a woman, I think we're understanding something of our transformation when we know God and what that should drive us to do and that how that should drive our relationship.
SPEAKER_00:There's a story I read years and years ago that stuck with me. It was a Olympic training coach with this gymnast guy. Yeah. And it was he was doing the uh uh what is it called? The bars. You know, the bars they're high and low, and you have to determine.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I don't know what those are called, but yeah. I'm always looking at um what are they called, Fred? Uneven bars.
SPEAKER_00:Uneven bars, thank you. Yeah, and he was dude.
SPEAKER_01:We have a producer now. So good, so good.
SPEAKER_00:I know it's great.
SPEAKER_01:Fred, look up a picture of uh uneven bars for us to look at that no one else can see real quick.
SPEAKER_00:Just kidding.
SPEAKER_01:I'm sorry, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:No, but he this guy, this kid was struggling to get over these bars, and the coach tells him it's like, throw your heart over the bar and your body will follow. Dude, that's it.
SPEAKER_01:That's it.
SPEAKER_00:That always stuck with me. Yeah, especially pursuing of Christ, God, living. It's throw your heart into anything, your body's gonna follow. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:There's a I I was um uh on the bench press the other day at the gym, Tim, and I was talking to a guy, and he was like, My lift routine changed. He said on the bench, when I stopped thinking about pushing the weight, but I started thinking about pushing the earth down with my back. You know what I mean? And I was like, sometimes you just need that perspective change. You know, this is uh I'm I've got it backwards. I'm not just trying to push this, I'm trying to change everything. I'm not just I'm not just throwing my body over. I'm I'm literally trying to throw my heart, my essence, my being over this. And when that changes, everything else will go along with it. And this is true in life. Um look, as a man thinks, so he is, right? But but I would even say it maybe more like this who you are in your deepest self, um, if you are convicted by that, and I and I mean this in a godly sense, not in some the secret law of attraction nonsense. What you give yourself to, ultimately you will find a way. You know, things will happen. And um if God has called you to something, if you don't uh steer off and go do something really stupid, he's gonna bring about what he said he would do. But I agree that it's something you throw your heart into. It's it's it's pushing the world back, not just pushing the weight up. It's a different mentality. It's how am I how am I listening for the voice of God and allowing how he's transformed my heart to drive everything that I'm doing? And the point remains, it's going to be uh a conviction and a desperation of heart that's going to change the world, uh a love for God that is going to change the world by changing men. And men are the ones that change the world, right? Um, and and I think it's it's men uniquely convicted by the Spirit of God that bring about transformation that nobody saw coming, and everybody sees it in somebody when they're doing it. Like, dude, that that guy's on fire. You know, something is going on with that guy, and it's it's it's next level. Well, when God grips a man's heart, it's pretty amazing to see what what God can do through one feeble, broken individual who's been touched by the the holiness of God.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and we always see that moment when they're like, oh, this guy's awesome. We never see the years built up to that, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. We didn't see the the misery that desperation causes at the same time, you know, sometimes.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. But uh to the other end of this coin, I guess, of uh don't send me to Africa, right? This idea. I think there's another side of it. It's like, don't let me talk about this to my wife. I don't want to bring this up to her. I don't want to have this conversation with my teenager. I don't want to, you know what I mean? Expla elaborate. There's I think there's there's a fear there too, is God, what do I do with my marriage? And it's like, go talk to her about this issue. Yeah. Go talk about your porn addiction or whatever it might be. Yeah, you're you're saying that you're uh no.
SPEAKER_01:You're saying that it's sometimes people are willing to go to Africa, but they're not willing to have a conversation with their wife.
SPEAKER_00:As an example. Yeah, sure. Just like a more of a practical way of saying it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think whatever door you're closing is the one that God is going to ask you to open. And I would say this with your fears too. The stuff that you're most afraid of, God's probably going to put you through that if you don't put that fear to bed so that you don't fear it anymore.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_01:You know, there there's that you have to face the things that are uniquely getting in the way of what God is calling you to do. Like I tell people all the time, if you're afraid of dying in a car accident, that's probably how you're going to go. If you're afraid of getting eaten alive by sharks, that's probably how you're going to go. Unless you conquer that fear now, uh, it's it's gonna come up at some point. I don't think we're supposed to let fear run our lives. And I think inevitably God is gonna make you face those things. If you're walking in obedience to him, he's gonna put you in situations where you actually have to face those things so that you can actually be free. Um with your kids, we know this. If your kid is deathly afraid of something, you gotta teach him to face it so that he's not afraid of those things anymore. And we think that goes away in as an adult. No, no, no. God's not here to eliminate fear from your life from a from an from an objective um uh you know scenario kind of standpoint. That the the reality is God is here to help you conquer those fears so that they wouldn't rule your life anymore. And so whether it's Africa or whether it's your conversation with your wife, or whether it's raising kids and you're terrified of raising kids, or whether it's a particular job, a skill set, I think God is always pushing you into places that you've told him you don't want to go, which is why I'm in Texas right now planting a church, and I told him I wasn't gonna go to Texas. Um, you know, I didn't want to do uh ministry in churches. I had a whole different idea of, you know, the way that I wanted to do things, and and God'll God will change things in your life all the time. Whatever you're saying no to and whatever doors you're closing are the ones that you probably can look forward to him opening up. Yeah, and uh or you can lose desperation and lose conviction and end up dying a little bit on the inside to save face.
SPEAKER_00:That's true. I find uh knowing what God wants of me is difficult most of the time. So my prayers are usually just like, God, just kick me, like hit me over the head, do something. All right, make it painfully clear for me. Yeah, I know I'm an idiot, so help me out a little bit, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. I I think uh there are times when what he's told you to do is a long-term thing, it's not like a quick, like, good, I did it, I got this out of the way. If he tells you to build something that takes 20 years to build, then you're gonna be busy for 20 years. Yeah, you know, and and in those times we're like, I hope I'm doing this right. I hope this is coming together the way that he's told me to do it, but you know, this is what he told me to do.
SPEAKER_00:It's a fear. It's like, is this a waste of time? If I did I listen wrong, you know what I mean? Like I might it's it's I don't know.
SPEAKER_01:You're not wrong, you're not wrong. We look for confirmation all the time. You know, we brought it up on a couple of podcasts ago, but Solomon really speaking uh to God, you know, hearing from him uniquely twice in his life. Yeah, you know what I mean? And it's like if God only spoke to you twice, would it be enough for you to do what he told you to do? And for most of us, we're like, no, I need him to tell me every day. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00:And it's like that's not how I want validation, at least, you know.
SPEAKER_01:I just think it's faithlessness that demands that God continues to reinforce what he's told us. And I'll be honest with you, I will be the first to say I lack faith all the time. I do. I want I want God to tell me again and again, I want to throw a fleece out, and then I want to put another fleece out, and then I want him to move the pencil, you know, on my desk, you know, just to just to remind me, you know, like stupid stuff. I don't actually. But um when I when I first got saved, I'm not gonna lie, another conversation. Oh yeah. Um, I think it's I think it's important that we know that if God has told you to do something, be faithful and do it. Finish it through to the end. Do what he's called you to do, and don't be the person who is constantly needing affirmation. Affirmation oftentimes, when you've especially when you've already had it from God, is ultimately just a faithlessness that um that is appearing in your life where you're trying to get other people to give you um something that God has already given to you. And if you do that, two things happen. Either A, you you know, you you end up consuming the very things that you were supposed to give life to and cannibal what you were trying to do, or you become uh uh let's say a a byproduct of the people around you, um, and then end up crating your life that way too, because you you stop becoming who you are, but you become an avatar of everybody else.
SPEAKER_00:Does uh I don't know how to ask this. Does God would God curse you or withhold from you if you refuse to do the thing he wants you to do, but you didn't actually know it was him who was telling you to do it?
SPEAKER_01:Uh yeah. Yeah, I I mean I would say it's more like cursing yourself. You know, like here's a question. Yeah. Um so like the prodigal son, did God curse him when he sent him out with this prophet to go do his own stuff?
SPEAKER_00:I don't know, curse, but the wrath for sure. Right.
SPEAKER_01:Like at some point he's eating out of the the pod for pigs, yeah, right? Spending his wealth on prostitutes. His dad let him go do that. Did his dad have an idea of what was gonna happen with this particular son when he gave him this wealth and what was gonna I think so. I don't think his dad was a dummy and was like, oh no, he's gonna go do all this stuff. No, he's an angry kid who's like, I want my inheritance before you're dead. Give it to me now so I can go do what I want to do. I'm pretty sure his dad was like, it's probably not gonna go well, but you know, um, I think God gives us over to the things that we demand that are ungodly. I think when we say no to God, we're ultimately saying no to blessing because blessing is where the presence of God and his will is, and we want to walk in the will of God. And if you're not walking in the will of God, you're doing things that are stupid, that oftentimes are meaningless and will cause meaningless pain. And so this is the Deuteronomic blessings and curses, right? I've laid before you today life and death. Choose life that you would live. And he makes the point if you're walking in sin, you're walking in curse, then I'm going to give you over to those things. So if you're asking me, would God curse somebody for not doing what he's called them to do? I would say the biblical answer to that is, yeah, everybody who doesn't do what he's doing is already under a curse. And you're you're bringing it down on your head when you make decisions that are in opposition to what he's told you.
SPEAKER_00:But I mean, participation or effort matters too, right? In what? Like I'm trying, but it doesn't seem to be working out all the time.
SPEAKER_01:Oh yeah. Whether you are able to, let's say, complete something God has called you to do versus was I being obedient the entire time of the process are two different things. God told Abraham that he was gonna have, you know, uh bless all the nations on the earth, and his uh, you know, his his descendants would be as numerous as the stars in the sky and the sand on the sea. He didn't see any of that, but he lived his life trying to be obedient to that. Did he make mistakes in the process? Hagar, Ishmael, yes. Um, there were other mistakes as well. So did Sarah, but but his life was lived in the direction of wanting to honor God and do what God was saying, even when it didn't totally make sense to him in those moments. And so I would say, yeah, if you're living your life with God, you have life. If you're living your life in disobedience to God, you're actually walking in death and you're putting yourself under a curse. And God promises this. If you do if you go the other direction, you're under a curse. And uh everybody is under the curse of sin who is walking in sin. So if you don't want to go Old Testament and go New Testament, I would say the wages of sin is death. So you're getting a paycheck at the end of your life for the life that you lived. And I would say those who are sent to hell and those who are um excommunicated, if you want to say it, uh, or sent out from the presence of God are under a curse and will be cursed for all eternity. And we don't like the terms blessing and cursing because we, you know, it's it feels like weird juju for us, but it's biblical language. And if you're walking in disobedience to God, and I would even say this if things seem to be working out in your life and you're walking in opposition to God, that is equally a curse.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Abraham, since you brought that up, is always interesting because here's a guy who God said, Go kill your son, right? Yeah, hate when that happens. It's the same guy who got another woman pregnant because he was trying to fulfill God's promise.
SPEAKER_01:It was his wife's idea, Tim. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but he's man over the household, right? So yeah. Yeah, no, it's totally his fault. I'm just saying, I'm being full. It's just weird. I I guess I don't know, I don't know where I was going with that, to be honest.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I just think most of most of the people who are following God still do a lot of stupid stuff and make mistakes.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, or force their hand into it almost.
SPEAKER_01:Right. And we would say that there was negative repercussions for most of the crap that they did that was wrong. Um, the bit about Abraham and his son, I think, is is a testing point. Are you gonna do what God called you to do even when you feel like you're gonna lose the most valuable things in your life when you do it? Are you gonna do what God asked you to do, even if you feel like you're giving up the very future that God was promising? And I think uh if you are in that moment worshiping the promised future over the promiser, you're you're you're missing. And I think some people in their Christian faith and walk fall more in love with the promises of God and what he's told them he would give them than God himself and the conviction and the desperation to know him. And when that happens, you know, when you trade the gift for the giver, it's messy. It goes badly, and uh you'll end up you'll up end up with like the George and Lenny scenario, you know, Tim? The Meissen men, right, where it's like you'll you'll strangle the good things that you love on accident because uh you're you're holding them so closely that you don't realize you're actually killing the thing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, that makes sense. Yeah, yeah. All right, man. That's pretty close to our time. It's good to see you again.
SPEAKER_01:Can I uh can I give a couple of quick things for some people um with uh desperation? Yeah, yeah. With desperation, I I wanted to say um if you don't feel like you have that in your life right now, find some people that do. Find some people that do. Like you will oftentimes catch fire if you find yourself with people who have caught fire. Um that's one. Two, ask God for that. Ask him to touch your heart, ask him to reveal himself to you, and take seriously this idea that I want to pursue God until I have been uniquely changed by him so that I would live differently in my life. And then the third thing is cut things out of your life that are doling the call of God. Oftentimes God is calling you, he's telling you to spend time with him, he's telling you to spend time in the word, he's trying to, uh, if you want to say it that way, uh, give you fresh fire, but you're actually avoiding it with laziness and anesthetization of like your heart. Like I'm just putting it to sleep because I don't actually want to have to walk through the process of catching fire. Because in one sense, it's just work to do so, in another sense, uh, I'm afraid of what might happen if if I actually do. So hope that helps you guys and um catch fire this week.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, all right. Hey, don't see you all next time. Have a great week, everybody.
