Navigate Podcast
Welcome to Navigate, we are two long term friends doing life and ministry together. I got tired of the same ole answers when I started looking for help when it came to my walk with God. So together we go deeper than most would on topics that most people have heard or were taught but never fully understood. It is our way of simplifying concepts that we may have over complicated throughout our lives. Bringing theology and life experience into each episode. It is our hope and desire to help Navigate your Christian walk with you
Navigate Podcast
Apostasy
Betrayal hurts more when it happens in the trenches. We take a hard look at apostasy—not as a catchall insult, but as the sobering reality of switching sides—through the lenses of Hebrews 6 and 10, Judas and Demas, and the everyday choices that reveal whether we love Jesus or just the glow of Christian community. Along the way, we make crucial distinctions: grave sin versus walking away for good, rebellion versus unbelief, and orthodoxy versus the theological slide that denies core truths while trying to keep a Christian label.
Together we name the counterfeit of transactional religion, where people leverage church for platform, comfort, or power and call it faith. We talk frankly about leaders who fall, how to respond without minimizing sin or baptizing despair, and why superficial assurance harms souls more than honest warnings ever will. You’ll hear why perseverance is more than a doctrinal slogan, how self-examination protects against drift, and how God can use anyone without that use proving union with Christ.
We also get practical for parents and pastors at home. Fathers shape identity; when a dad turns, families often follow. So we map out how to raise children toward regeneration: tell the truth, confront sin with mercy, invite real questions, and use great stories to train the conscience. Boys and girls often sin differently; wise coaching honors those differences while keeping the same gospel center—dying to self and rising with Christ.
If you’ve been burned by a Judas or discouraged by a Demas, take heart. Expect betrayal without becoming bitter, cling to the real gospel, and keep walking. If this conversation sharpened your thinking or strengthened your resolve, subscribe, share it with a friend, and leave a review so more people can find it.
Hey guys, welcome back to Navigate Podcast. I am here with Justin. Oh yeah. And uh I uh I'm sure you've heard my voice uh maybe a couple times before, but it's Casey here, and uh we're uh we're getting ready to kick off uh kick off a fun episode, I think. Let's go, dude. So um no, Justin, I wanted to talk to you today about apostasy.
SPEAKER_01:Um nice, okay.
SPEAKER_00:Um looking at uh looking specifically at the back half of Hebrews 10, and um like there's some real strong words to be said about people who get right up to the edge of faith and then reject God. And I wanted to kind of walk through a lot of that with you. So Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Um see you're Hebrews 10 is almost uh is almost a kind of a separate but associated topic, I guess. Hebrews 10 is gonna be, or Hebrews 6 are gonna be these uh can you lose your salvation kind of questions. Apostasy to me is almost um it's associated but slight it maybe slightly different.
SPEAKER_00:Great. Let's walk through all of that.
SPEAKER_01:So apostasy is not just a um a question of salvation, but more of a question of um betrayal. Uh maybe thinking about it in those terms. So we I'm happy to go to uh Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10 later and talk through some of that. But I think the the thing that we're looking at and thinking about when we think about apostasy is a is a grave thing. And unfortunately, I feel like apostasy has been used to um talk about some rather flippant things, like the the apostasy of women wearing jeans. You know what I mean? Yeah, the apostasy of of you know uh rap music. You know what I mean? Like some some some people use apostasy in a very flippant way to basically say like oh some terrible sin. Apostasy was a word that was used when somebody was betraying you in the middle of a fight. Like it would be the equivalent of uh somebody marching out to battle with you, and before you know the lines, um well, what's the word for that when they come together? The line is formed or whatever, uh, those people would turn and fight for the other side. Which is this crazy like word picture in your head. But when you think about Judas, that's what we're looking at. Or we look at um uh for Paul, it could be uh Hymenaeus and Alexander, uh, or Demas, uh Hymenaeus and Exalon and Alexander, people that it says Paul handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme, um, who apparently at one point were working with him and a part of what was going on and busy doing those things. And then in the next text, you have um, you know, them apparently living a totally different way. I think it's Colossians chapter four that talks about Demas, and um Demas is with them, alongside them, doing ministry, uh, seems to be uh at least trusted and loved and a part of all the different stuff that's going on. And then in 2 Timothy, the last letter that uh Paul writes, um, it says that Demas has deserted me, Paul talking about him, because he loved this present world and he went to Thessalonica, which is like a wait a second. What's what why is why is Thessalonica bad? Like, how does that what does that mean? Well, ultimately, people who are dealing with apostasy usually are dealing with um some kind of fear of man, like the culture is changing, the pressure feels this way, and therefore I'm going this way, or they're struggling with some kind of uh usually some kind of sexual temptation or lust. Like those tend to be the two areas that people usually deal with when they're about to jump, you know, jump off the boat or go a different direction.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I mean, we hear about um hear about all these, you know, good faith leaders, uh Ravi Zachariah comes to mind about people who they fall into that. It's it's wild to me.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and I don't even know if that's apostasy. I mean, to me, it's you know, definitely grave sin.
SPEAKER_00:And that's kind of one one of the things I wanted to ask about is um what's the difference of someone like a Ravi Zachariah or or walking into um that sin while still professing faith the whole time versus someone who um we would we would classify as an apostate where they have walked away from the faith completely.
SPEAKER_01:So there's um you can be in sin as a Christian and not be apostate. You can be stupid in the faith and not be apostate. Yeah, there's uh you can you can you can give people reason to question whether you're in the faith if the sin is egregious enough. Um so for instance, um I might put somebody under church discipline uh who is who has murdered somebody, and I might actually tell them, uh, look, we are legitimately questioning your salvation because we don't know how somebody who was saved could do something so egregious and heinous against the Imago Day, right? So it's possible that you could look at uh you know guys like uh Ravi Zacharias and say, okay, clearly he was not saved because nobody who's saved could be living in that kind of uh have that kind of duplicitous life going on where what was it? I think it was call girls and stuff, right? Like I think he was going to massage parlors.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, a lot of that, a lot of a lot of illicit conversations and um, you know, back alley texting and all that.
SPEAKER_01:So like me and how me and you text each other.
SPEAKER_00:Uh yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, yeah. Just make it sure. I'm sorry, I couldn't help it. Uh I think uh yeah, so apostasy would functionally be leaving the faith and intentionally leaving the faith or saying, I'm not doing this anymore, I don't believe this anymore, I'm fundamentally changing what I believe, and I'm making that known, in fact, to the point where I am now opposing you, okay, which is why it makes it uh that trading sides in the middle of the fight.
SPEAKER_00:So, how does that functionally so uh if somebody walks into egregious sin, completely turns their back on what it is to be saved, and goes and and is sinning against the very thing they have professed to know that is sin, but still says, No, but I still believe in God, um, would that would that be classified as an apostate because they're they're not they're not making their declarations against God known?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think it's um it might be difficult because it could be that somebody wants to still be perceived as a Christian, even though they're not. So, like this is where you get into uh I'm a universalist, but I'm still a Christian. I just think everybody goes to heaven and it's totally fine. Well, at some point you've left the reservation as far as the faith goes in general, and you're still pretending to be on that side, but actually you're warring against it. So, in that sense, yeah, I would say, so if you have a uh an egregious heresy, not just a sin problem or pattern, but actually a theological stance that's different. So if I say um, you know, stealing is wrong, but I'm struggling with it, okay, well, at least you're acknowledging that it's wrong, you you know, you monster. We gotta get that changed and fixed and whatever else. But if somebody is is trying to communicate to me that it's not wrong and it's totally fine, but they still believe in the difference between right and wrong. Okay, now we have a problem.
SPEAKER_00:All right, what if they say stealing is wrong? I know that, but I don't care. I'm going to do it anyway because I like to.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, uh, I I would say that that person is is at the very least saying they don't believe the word of God is true for them, or or they uh don't care. Like the the spectrum for me on this with most people who are struggling is either rebellion or unbelief. So rebellion is kind of what you're mentioning. I know what God said, I don't care. Unbelief is uh I know what God says, but I don't believe them. Gotcha. They're two different things and they tend to lead to two different dispositions. One person is a rebellious, argumentative, um, uh tend to be more on the pleasure-seeking, attention-seeking, anger spectrum. The unbelief tend to be on the melancholy, uh, distrusting, isolated side. Both of them are rebellion against God, uh, or because of pride or unbelief in God. Um, but but the it just depends at the level of what they're saying. If they're saying, I don't believe in the deity of Jesus Christ, well, now we've left the reservation.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, if you're saying I think women can be pastors, cool. We're you're probably still a Christian, but you left the state.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You know what I mean? Now you're now you're in a different area. Um, and that might be problematic. But yeah, I mean, if if somebody is denying what the scripture clearly teaches, I would say there's some problems there, depending on how how clear that particular thing is in the text. If it's, I mean, if we're talking eschatology, you know, uh there there can be some variation without you getting smoked in the process.
SPEAKER_00:What? Are you saying that you know you're not a heretic if I believe the rapture is mid-trib versus pre-trib versus post-mill entirely?
SPEAKER_01:You can, as long as you believe that Jesus is physically returning, we're probably good.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, okay. So the odd males are screwed.
SPEAKER_01:No, no, no. They believe that Jesus is physically returning.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Uh Amel is um they believe he's physically returning. They just uh there's something called a full preterist, which is to say that Jesus has already returned or he's already back. Yes. That's that's uh that's heresy. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Gary DeMar, I think, was flirting with that a while ago.
SPEAKER_00:Gotcha. Anyways, stay partial preterist, folks. That's right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So you have um you have these texts, Casey, where um you have people like Judas, you have people like Hymeneus and Philetus or Demas, some of these different people. And the question is, how is it that they followed God and were ostensibly with them, part of the faith, doing the things, and then just walked out? And what does that do to us?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I actually wanted to go back to Judas specifically because um you know the gospels make it pretty clear that the the apostles or not the the the disciples were performing miracles, and I would assume that includes Judas. Yeah. Um how does that function where Judas is with them performing these miracles in the name of Christ and yet it falls so far?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, um I mean it's it's an interesting thing, but I don't think it's that um unrealistic. Like, think about it this way. You have people, especially if you get into Hebrews 6, let's just read it real quick. Hebrews chapter 6, uh, he says this, therefore, and 4 and 6 is primarily what we'll look at, but therefore, leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and faith toward God, of instruction about washing and laying on of hands and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. This we will do if God permits. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and have made uh been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify to themselves the Son of God and put him to open shame. For ground that drinks the rain, which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation, is useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled and receives a blessing from God. But if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned. Um, people read this text, and there's a lot of wrestling around this particular text. I believe that Paul in this moment is calling them into maturity. And it's like you guys already know the basics of what this is supposed to look like. I want you to look at the ground. They're both receiving the same thing. This field is receiving uh the same nourishment, the same water, the same stuff, and it is producing thorns and thistles. And this field over here is producing really good, glorious things and is producing fruit. What's the difference? Well, what's going on? Well, well, there's a different heart. There's a there's something else different. And you could you could look at this soil and that soil and not necessarily know if you gave them the same things what was going to produce what. Yeah. And it's the same way in the church. There's there's soil that is presumably good soil, but ultimately, if it's not changed by God, uh, is going to produce something else entirely. And so I think in texts like this, you have somebody who it's like, man, I was in the covenant people. Uh, you have the you have the the seen church and the unseen church, or if you want to think about it um in a different way, you have the you have the elect and you have the the you know people in covenant with God, which I do think are different categories. Um walk walk through that a little bit more. How are they different? So you have a bunch of people who are in a church, but everybody knows that not everybody who goes to that church is saved. All right, yeah. Um uh you have uh a larger church with a bunch of people who are going to different churches or ascribing or saying that they're Christians, but everybody knows that there's actually a group within that group that actually is. Um that there are different groups. It think about it this way: in Israel, you had a bunch of people that were part of Israel, but not everybody in Israel was awesome all the time, even though all those people were in covenant with Israel. God says, Listen, if you do the right things, this is how you live. If you do this crap, you're gonna be under curses. And we know that there were certain people in Israel at the time, like in Elijah's time, he's like, There's 7,000 people who haven't bowed the knee. Well, apparently that everybody that wasn't a part of those 7,000 was living an entirely different way, but they were still in covenant with God and were under Deuteronomic curses.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:All right.
SPEAKER_00:Uh what comes to mind because I read it just recently was Korah's rebellion. Yeah, where you have these ostensibly, you know, people who are in partial leadership in the in the nation of Israel, yeah. Um completely rebelling and and declaring that you know what God said isn't true. Yeah. Um and the earth opens up and swallows them whole. And not just swallows them whole, but their families. Like it says their wives and their children came out of their tents and stood with them. And so um, I wanted to touch on that when it comes to apostasy, as as a man leading your home. Yeah, how does that look for the people you're leading? Your wife, your children, all that.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, I think statistically, if uh the father doesn't believe, the kids tend to go with them. The wife even tends to go with them. There's uh there's a picture of if if fathers stand against what God has called them to, that their families also pay the price along with them. And you can be frustrated with that as much as you want, or argue with that as much as you want. It's not a hundred percent the case across the board, but there's a real reality there. Like, like the the man is supposed to produce identity in the family. And I think um people forget this. It wasn't Eve who named the animals, it wasn't Eve who named herself, it was Adam who named the animals, and Adam who named Eve, because men are supposed to instill identity, it's part of what we're called to do. This is why if a man or a husband or a father goes to church, 90% of 90% of the time the kids are gonna go to the church as well. But if a lady starts going to church, it's only like 3% or something. I don't know, it's some it's some tiny number that will actually end up the the odds are that they'll actually end up going to church as well. Now, um, church and salvation again might be slightly different things, but it's it's still an interesting stat to look at and say, okay, clearly, men, whether we like it or not in our current society, hold the key to uh a familial identity in a way that nobody else really can. And so if the covenant head, which is the way that the Bible would talk about uh the man's position, somebody who's supposed to be a covering and uh a help, uh the umbrella over this particular group of people, um, removes what he's supposed to be doing. Nine out of ten times the family's going right along with them. And this is, I mean, you see this alcoholics produce alcoholics, abusers produce abusers. There's this, there's this process of if you're gonna go this way and do these things, it it really takes a miracle for somebody to come out of that and walk a different direction. And it's no less the case when somebody apostatizes. You have somebody who walks out and says, I don't believe this anymore, I don't buy it. Usually the kids go right along with it.
SPEAKER_00:Gotcha. And so backtracking a little bit um and touching on that as well, if someone does apostatize and walks away from the faith, you and you said there's kind of two different ways that happens, or two different ways that that um perspective changes. It's I don't believe this or uh I don't care. Yeah, um yeah, rebellion or unbelief. And looking at those two as as Christians who want to see um people come back to the faith or even come to the faith because they never were in the first place, yeah. Um how do you handle those two different um perspectives? Man, that's a great question.
SPEAKER_01:Some people some people would say um that your goal is to convince them that they still are saved. That because they have believed and they've that uh salvation is um you know this this thing that can't be taken from you. Well, you're just pushing against the Holy Spirit and you're saying you disagree and you're not living that way, but deep down you're miserable because you are still saved and you're just walking against what God told you to do. I find that teaching abhorrent. Um that is a profane sense of uh eternal security that just does not work and doesn't cut it. Even Paul, I think it's in 1 Corinthians 15, tells people to check and see if you're still in the faith. Check your own heart. Like make sure you're serious about what you're saying. And to tell somebody who's running the opposite direction, the reason you're miserable is because you still love Jesus so much and you just you're you're having a hard time coming to that conclusion to me is is is very anti-biblical. If the fruit doesn't match, you know what I mean? Uh there's a bigger problem there, especially if they're rejectoring core tenets of the faith.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and not only that, I would I would hazard a guess that if somebody is running against God and you tell them, oh, don't worry, you still love Jesus, you just need to come back, that's not exactly a heavy incentive for them to change.
SPEAKER_01:That's what I'm saying. You're you're basically telling them, you're basically fine. Uh, I know you're in sin and living a totally different way, but it's not really that big of a deal. I was at a coffee shop the other day, dude. And I was listening to this guy. Uh, I um he was talking to him, and the guy's struggling with his faith. And he's basically like, yeah, I don't know if I buy this, or I don't know if I buy that, or I'm struggling with this. And he's like, Yeah, but and he starts starts walking into like a moralistic, you know, kind of argument, not the good kind, but more more along the lines of, yeah, but you still think people should do the right thing. And then he tells him, So you're basically a Christian. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, nah, bro, you're you're actually hurting this guy. Like you're not, you're not showing him his sin, you're not showing him the problems, you're not showing them the significance of the cross. In fact, you're consistently trying to minimize the cross and the cost of sin to help this person feel like he's on the right side, and you are encouraging that person to be damned. Um, it's it's a problem. It's a problem.
SPEAKER_00:So, what you're saying is you can't nice someone to heaven.
SPEAKER_01:Turns out.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It turns out it turns out. There, the other direction, I would say that maybe the more appropriate way uh to handle this, and this is how I would want to do it, is to emphasize sin. I would want to go the opposite direction. Uh, the wrong direction to me is minimizing what the person is going through. The right direction is emphasizing why they never really had the thing that they're saying they did. Because I know a lot of people in my life who are like, I grew up in church, I know all the right answers, I did all this stuff, and I'm like, right, you had a great knowledge and you had no heart transformation. And you and I both know it. You're you're a fantastic liar. And listen to me, uh, parents, um, people that are in this world, I want you to know people can be fantastic liars. They can be great at it, they can be in the covenant community, they can be taking communion with you and have totally different motivations for why they're doing the things that they're doing, and they have not legitimately placed their faith in Jesus. Either they are in the category of I know Christianese, but if it boils down to it, I think good works saved me and I've done all the right things, or they're the person on the other side of things who who is the no, basically everybody gets in. You know, God, God loves us, and I know what it says in the Bible, but deep down I really believe that everybody is gonna be okay. You know, death ultimately sends all of us to heaven. All of that is trash, but there's a ton of people who are taking communion or going to church with you who have a false belief about what salvation actually is, and they're carrying that with them into all these different places. Like Judas, when I think about that process, ultimately he wanted an insurrection. He wanted Rome to be overthrown, he wanted Jesus to usher in some kind of um some kind of kingdom right then and there that would crush the Roman Empire and install the 12 disciples as the rulers, you know what I mean, over this particular area. And the farther they get from that happening, the more and more Judas is flirting with uh getting power from a different area. Uh how many of us have had that friend who's like, you know, he's friends with you until you're no longer in a popular spot and then they float off and they find somebody else who's, you know, they're just they're they're power leeches. There's a lot of people, and I hate to say this, man, who it's like they didn't make it in the world, you know what I mean, who find themselves being great student pastors at a church. Um, there's a lot of people who didn't make it in the world who are great at being pastors for a small congregation, and they didn't really uh they're not really in that spot because they love the word and they love to uh you know to lead people and there's a calling on their life. It just seems to be a safe environment where they're along, they're allowed to um uh receive some kind of respect from people uh because the church is more inclined to give it, you know what I mean, than in other environments.
SPEAKER_00:Well, you had recently brought up uh someone you had um walked through um who was very transactional with that, who who had all the head knowledge, who wanted that um pastoralship and believed it was owed to him.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um and you said, you know, this dude's gonna be agnostic or atheist here, and then he was.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. How would you how would you reach someone like that?
SPEAKER_01:Just to uh I think ultimately to show them that what their desire is is not for Jesus. Um I I think uh letting somebody know, hey, just so you're aware, you don't love God. You don't love Jesus, you don't love Christianity, you're leveraging Christianity. It's different, they're different things. And um, there's a transactional Christianity, which is functional paganism, yeah, just so you know, which is I will do these things for God, and God will then do these things for me, right? Like so, so paganism would be I will give this money at the temple, I will pay for this prostitute, I will do this ritual, I will sacrifice these plants, these animals, whatever it is, and yeah, this child. And in return, I will either get more children or crops or better weather or blessing on my, you know, whatever it's going to be. There's a transactional nature to it where it is, I will pay the fee as long as I receive this particular thing. And the true gospel is I have to die. Like I'm God is going to kill the person that I am, the desires that I have, and the direction that I'm going, and going to place in me a new heart with new desires and a new direction. It's it's actually a removal of my life. Salvation, Christian, is God killing you and making you a new person. But if God doesn't kill you and you think you're a Christian, something is actually wrong. You might be in this um transactional or paganistic kind of Christianity, which says, I will follow Jesus, I will, and you could learn theology and love like the beautiful connections you see in scripture. You could be able to, you know, memorize story. You could even be a fabulous teacher of the word. And if it doesn't produce for you what you want it to produce, you will end up leaving the faith, like this guy that we were talking about. He's a smart guy. You know, he went and had his IQ checked, and it was 140 IQ, which is wild to me. Um, although I feel like people who actually get their IQ checked, it's like, I don't know, that's a little gay, you know? It's a little weird. But it's yeah, anyways, but um he wasn't in it because he loved Jesus, he was in it because he felt like he found a vein where he could be respected for his ability to understand theology, and he wanted other people to worship him for it. And when he found out that actually other people are not, they don't care. They they want to see you live a particular way and pastor and care for people and do it. You're not gonna receive worship on behalf of Christ and his church, uh, walked away, man. And um, I think it's just a good reminder to all of us what are your motivations? Is your is your Christianity transactional? I will follow God if I get this payoff, I will follow God if He provides for me the American dream, right? Yeah, and uh I just I don't see that in the Bible anywhere.
SPEAKER_00:Um, in this world you will have trials.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, but take heart of overcome the world, right? Exactly. The picture when we look at scripture is that again, salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. It is a gift given uh to you by God that you would be able to place your faith in Him, in Christ alone, and it's that transformation right there that kills you and resurrects you, uh, you know, basically one thing after the other, that you would be a very different person living a very different life. But it is very possible for people to be hanging out with and enjoying the good things and the light coming off of Christians and being able to reflect that light, but not having that light themselves. And so just keep in mind, um, and this isn't like a I should be looking over my shoulder all the time, but I would say this, Christian, uh, you can expect to be betrayed. If Jesus had, you know, uh a Judas and Paul had a demons, you know what I mean, or Paul had a demon, uh, Paul had a demons, you you can expect for there to be people in your life, and I'll just say this in my own life, man. There have been people who I have really thought, dude, this guy loves the Lord, getting after it. So good. Man, I'm so blessed by this person that later on I'm like, how did I not see?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:How was I like, you know, like how did I not see all this different stuff was going on? And that shouldn't make you lose faith in Christ. It should make you dig in deeper and say, Lord, check my heart. Yeah, make sure my heart is in a good place.
SPEAKER_00:Pray for eyes to see.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. Give me, give me a heart that loves you more. And again, that just the number one thing that I would tell people and just honestly ask you is do you love Jesus? If you do not have a love for the Lord, something is wrong. You should love Jesus. And if you're like, I don't know if I do, I love church, I love my friends at church, I love singing songs of worship, I love theology, I love all those things. That is not the same as having a legitimate love for the Lord. And if you don't have that, we need to be begging to God to give us a legitimate love for him because that love for him only comes from a regenerate heart. Yeah, that by the Spirit we would have love for him.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So um, transitioning a little bit towards uh how this applies as a parent. Yeah. Um because one of the things we do as as fathers, yeah, is raise our kids in the church, raise them in the way they should go.
SPEAKER_01:The wisdom and admonition of the Lord.
SPEAKER_00:And and like you know, you you talked about seeing um people who are who are taking communion, who are partaking in all these who are not regenerate.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:um you know as we're taking our kids through the these these steps, taking them through communion, um baptism, all of that, yeah. Um what can we do as as fathers and and for the audience white as parents in general um to combat um you know a a heart of apostasy versus a heart of true regeneration in our kids?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah it's a great question man um so when you think about a church as a pastor uh if I baptize somebody I am going by their word and what I can see that this person has made a confession of faith believes the truth of what God has said and wants to walk in obedience to that all right so like do I know for sure if that person is saved? No, of course not no but uh to the best of my ability I'm gonna try to understand where they're at and treat them accordingly I would say pastors are going to give the word give the sacraments exercise church discipline like a father would in his own house doing the best he can to disciple people love people train people without necessarily knowing where every heart lies or what you know what every core thought is of every individual person there. I know God commands us to raise our children like believers like or to train them in the wisdom and admonition of the Lord. Deuteronomy 6 this whole Shema when you lie down when you rise up when you walk along the way like this whole this is supposed to be integrated in everything you're doing. And sometimes people today raise their kids like oh well we don't want to tell them that they're believers we don't we don't we don't want to confuse them and make them think they're Christians. So let's tell them that they're not Christians and can't become Christians until they apparently intellectually understand better, which is intellectualism not grace alone through faith alone and Christ alone which is kind of uh a problem there but uh without going too far into covenants and all that stuff I would say um we raise our children in all the right ways we teach them to love the Lord we explain to them how faith works we model it for them in their lives and we by faith trust that God is going to regenerate those hearts and do a work in them and that those uh deuteronomic blessings if you want to say it that way continue on. And I think uh you get to see those things in solid Christian families with solid Christian people everybody talks about the the amount of people that are walking away from the faith you know out of high school and in college what you don't see is the massive amount of people coming back to the faith uh in you know basically in their early 30s or late 20s so everybody's like everybody's leaving the church in droves right they're also coming back to the church in droves uh and and it's fun to watch for me because I'm like you know what's cool is God's God's still do a work in those people you know what I mean on behalf of the prayers of you know of of these parents for the prodigals and everything else but um you should be praying for your kids before they're prodigals too yeah you should be praying for your kids before they're even born yeah you know what I mean but the the the picture here I think that you're asking is hey how do you avoid apostasy or something with your kids I would say everything that you do is in faith not in doubt and I think it's from fear that you say I don't know if my kids are saved. I don't know if my kids are going to say I think you pray and say God thank you that you got my kids. I'm gonna continue to train them and raise them the way that you have called me to and I'm gonna navigate their hearts just like a pastor would a congregation. That's a great perception at the end of the day I'm going to give them uh what God has told me to give them I'm gonna teach them I'm gonna walk with them like everyone in this building is saved at the same time knowing I don't know for sure God knows for sure. But I'm not responsible for the elect. I'm responsible for the covenant people. I'm not responsible for each individual heart and whether they actually believe or not I'm responsible for making sure they're in an environment that is obedient to God they're in an environment where I'm being obedient to God. Does that make sense? Absolutely so so I would say um doing that and then I would also say this doing heart checks is a good thing. Do you actually believe this? Where are you struggling with this? Encouraging those areas where there might be doubt or difficulty and then actually dealing with them. Like as Christians we have the truth. That doesn't mean we have to run from it and having faith and raising them like a Christian does not mean we're going to avoid all the difficult topics. We're not going to bring up the things that they might struggle with or have doubts with uh if they have a sin problem in their life I'm just gonna kind of overlook it. That's not how that works. Jesus walked into the storm not not away from it. And as Christians I would say because we know truth incarnate we should be able to walk into any situation without fear and be able to bring truth and bring light and and help somebody walk through whatever difficulty they uniquely have. And I'm telling you right now every person has some unique difficulty. It's gonna be there.
SPEAKER_00:But don't go in with a machete go in with a scalpel yeah you're doing surgery not going to war against your own yeah well and I think you know you you brought up uh on this podcast um quite some time ago um having hard conversations with your children and not running from that or being afraid of that or overlooking that and I think um the example you used was walking through the Chronicles of Narnia and reading the silver chair with your son. Yeah um and really digging into all right we're going to talk about the struggles that specifically men and boys have yeah and specifically not avoid that or just overlook it and say uh you know they don't know it's not gonna hurt them. Right.
SPEAKER_01:Um I think we have a duty to teach our children the truth. And that doesn't just mean Bible verses that also means the narrative and truth that we see throughout scripture. Yeah. Um the Silver Chair is such a great book because it's the knight who's bound to the chair by the sorceress lady who's uh beautiful and enchanting and is also a servant uh and he ends up living you know enslaved underground and taught that the sunlight doesn't exist that the world above does not exist a lot of men right are caught up in uh exactly that kind of lifestyle thank God for people like Lewis who can teach it so beautifully but I've said it for a long time teach your kids uh the best stories and they'll learn to spot nonsense um in their bones before you know before they uh even totally understand what's going on yeah but yeah you teach your kids that you teach your kids through stories you teach your kids through truth and and my daughters I'm gonna I'm gonna teach a little differently than my sons because turns out that they are different. What? Amazing um boy sins and girl sins although there's plenty of overlap are also different. Yeah which is funny to me because if you talk if you talk to people and you're like you you got up from the platform men just have some unique struggles and difficulties and sin patterns that women don't have everybody's like amen pastor yes absolutely if you get up and say and women have some unique sins that men don't necessarily you know struggle with as much and they're like hey now I don't know about that. Yeah no no no we're different and we sin differently which means we need to be coached differently and I thank God uh for my wife because I can address some sins um I can do it biblically but I will say this she has like an inside point of view which really helps my daughters understand what's going in their heart sometimes where I can't say that it's helpful if children have a parent of both parents either sex you know yeah that's crazy. What I know I know we're just breaking every social boundary today I'm so proud of us. Amen.
SPEAKER_00:Amen yep well done and if you can't say amen you might as well say out thank you voti bakam yeah God may he rest in peace.
SPEAKER_01:Um so on the topic of apostasy just just to finish up I would say this there are some texts in the Bible dealing with can someone lose their salvation? I would say this I don't believe you can lose your salvation. I believe that anyone who truly does believe uh ultimately like will will finish I believe in the perseverance of the saints if you want to say it this way. That being said uh A.W. Tozer has this quote I love he says faith is not a conclusion you reach it's a journey you live which means it's not one moment where I had faith and now I don't have faith anymore. Ah, how did that happen? Faith is given to you by God and produced by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which continues you to help you to walk out the sanctification process, the glorification process, all the things. And um I I think if if somebody ultimately apostatizes it's because they were not actually part of the faith in the first place. Like I said they were reflecting the light but had no light of their own. They were the same ground which received the same nourishment and could even be um in that covenant blessing around godly people doing things by the Spirit. And I wouldn't say oh that person totally got it. I think God can use Nebuchadnezzar to bring about what he wants I think God can use all kinds of people the different judges different circumstances to do miraculous works. Somebody doesn't have to be a Christian to be used by God. And I think sometimes we um we feel like God can't use those people that's that's impossible. Well tell that to Habakkuk who was like uh you know frustrated that God was going to use a a nation that was more pagan than uh than they were uh to judge them he was like well you can't use somebody who's worse than us to judge us yes yes he can watch me right and so I would say um I think John uh I think it's is it first John 2 20 19 and 20 maybe that that brings us up this whole day that they went out from us because they are never a part of us. And this is like a classic you know most people know this verse. Yeah um a lot of people want to argue otherwise I think when we're talking about apostasy we're talking about somebody who never truly believed who was within the let's say the covenant people but was not elect and at some point when they don't get what they want or the city that the payoff for their flesh was not what it was supposed to be they bail because a true gospel tells you that you have to die and the false gospel the apostate gospel is ultimately this will serve my flesh getting to live and those things are incompati that that mentality is incompatible with Christianity. Yeah well that uh that is some good insight I I would say your your um example here about people who are in that covenant community but they're reflecting light the light and not actually um producing it producing that you know it I got this image of of the moon and like on a night where there the moon is full you have this light that is shining in the darkness yeah but absent the sun the moon is nothing yeah well and is God using the moon yeah absolutely God used you know unsaved people all the time Christian like get used to it you just stay the course and do what God has called you to do and um if you run into somebody who is that betrayer if you want to think about it that way just just remember that so is uh so is Jesus or Jesus had the same thing Paul had the same thing uh you will have people like that in your own life and that doesn't mean you should be looking over your shoulder wondering who's gonna stab you in the back but it does mean that you should continue to stay the course after you've been stabbed in the back because it's probable. Yep and don't learn the wrong lessons from it. Yeah absolutely yeah don't get bitter get better well thanks man thanks for uh walking us through it today I'm pumped to have you on the podcast a little more uh Casey is gonna be um jumping in with the King's Banner army down here in in uh Tyler pretty soon and uh we're gonna be getting after it so expect to hear from him a little bit more and he's got some uh some topics he said he wants to cover that I'm pretty pumped about so yeah we'll get there soon y'all have an amazing week and we'll hit you up later
