Singleness and the Church

Transcript

Welcome And Why Singles Matter

SPEAKER_00 0:04

All right. Welcome everybody to Navigate Podcast. I'm uh pumped that you guys are joining us again today. I have uh a lady on the podcast today, which is kind of a big deal. I think I've had two total. One has been my wife, and one was like a testimonial. So this is a big this is a big deal.

SPEAKER_03 0:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

This is a big deal in the navigate world. I'm excited. Uh welcome uh Karis to the podcast this morning. Pumped to have you here. Um, Karis is uniquely involved in the singles world. And this is a world that I think uh everybody hates. I mean, I feel like uh people that are in a relationship like don't know what to do with singles. I think people that are single don't totally know how to navigate the single world, and it is increasingly frustrating uh in our culture today to navigate this circumstance, and it is a growing population, like nonstop over the last, especially since the 1950s, it is just spiked. Um I'm excited to talk a little bit about feminism. I'm excited to talk about all the things. Tell us a little bit about what you do and uh go ahead and throw out too like where people can um find your stuff if they're interested in using your unique services.

Karis’s Path To Christian Matchmaking

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Okay. Um, yeah, so I have a heart for singles, obviously. I am well, that's not obvious. I am single, so obviously I have a heart for the singles. Um, but I think being in my 30s and being single kind of puts me in a unique place um to speak to the singles to a certain extent. Um because I have that the frustration of you know, the weight and the desire to be married and all these things. But I think that being in the singles world and seeing the frustrations and experiencing the frustrations um is something that, you know, allows me to do what I do well, hopefully. Um so ultimately I do dating, coaching, and matchmaking, Christian matchmaking. And this really came about in my heart several years ago, actually, when I actually just kind of realized that I naturally matchmake people.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

And it was one of those things where it was like I didn't notice it until it happened a few times. And I was like, I put I've put like four couples together at this point. I'm doing it naturally, and I was like, can I like do this professionally? Because I love doing it. I love connecting people and I love being able to like help people along. And I mean, even through high school and college, like people naturally came to me for advice on you know, relationships and things like that. Even though like I wasn't necessarily in one, people gravitated towards me in that.

SPEAKER_00 2:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:52

Which is interesting because I think you have a lot of people who are like, you can't get advice from somebody who doesn't have that experience or isn't in it. Like people say, don't take marriage advice from somebody who's never been married.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

But at the end of the day, that's like a it's it's kind of a Gnosticism, though. It is like if the Bible has something to say about it, exactly. Anyone should have something to say about it. For the same reason, I would uh I detest the argument um men shouldn't have anything to say uh to women because you're not a woman.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

Right.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

Well, if you're gonna say the same thing about relationships, then you're you're literally falling into the same trap. Absolutely dropping that on the table for for our uh skeptical friends today.

SPEAKER_01 3:31

Yeah, absolutely. And I'm like, well, Paul isn't married, like Jesus wasn't married. Like, are you gonna listen to them about these things?

SPEAKER_00 3:38

You know what the arguments I've heard of this? Jesus was married to the church, so there's that. Okay, true, yeah. And Paul potentially was married because he was a Pharisee. I don't know if I buy that. Okay, I don't know if I buy it. Some people are like, he had to be married because he was a Pharisee in this particular level, and you wouldn't be able to be a Pharisee at that level unless you had been married. It's kind of an argument from culture. So let's just let's just say, I mean, at least at the time when he's doing all the things he's doing, he's single.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Right, because in in 1 Corinthians, doesn't he talk about like to be as I am? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:13

No, when he's writing, he doesn't have a wife.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

Right.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

But they're like, so what happened?

SPEAKER_01 4:17

Right.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

She became Christian and he probably killed her, you know? It was I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

That's hilarious. But yeah, I'm like, I'm like, ultimately, like the advice that I give is like to my best ability, like I want it to be biblically based, right? So, and I think that without me saying that, that's really why people have gravitated towards me, is because the advice that I give, I want it to be biblical.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

Sure. Even if I'm not saying this is straight out of the Bible, which probably seems revolutionary in our world today.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

Yeah.

Is Dating Biblical Or Just Cultural?

SPEAKER_00 4:50

And and you're not out here uh like opening up the word and teaching the word to men or something to tell them how to do it. Just you love bringing people together. Yes. You want to use wisdom and clarity to help them navigate what they're doing. What's uh walk me through, walk me through um how you're navigating people in this world today of like uh hookup culture, swipe right culture, only fans. I mean, it it is a nightmare world. Uh, the second that contraceptives and transportation became readily available, it kind of blew everything up. Uh what's it like today? How do you how do you help people navigate that? Especially, I'm just stacking questions. Yeah. Especially people who have come out of a secular dating environment and are now maybe in the church.

SPEAKER_02 5:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:40

I feel like they don't even know how to how to how to how to date somebody if you want to talk about it that way without having the the wrong end game in mind.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

Right. It I mean, it's hard because and it's funny because I'm like, I'm a dating coach, I'm a matchmaker, I'm helping people date, but I'm like, I hate the word dating. I hate the idea of dating. I'm like, dating is not biblical, we can get into all of that. Yeah. And and I really do think feminism has played such a part in how hard they how hard it is to find a spouse in two days.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

Tell me why.

SPEAKER_01 6:14

Well, so I mean, if we look historically, like men were encouraged, they had to be, you know, in a position to bring somebody into their life.

SPEAKER_00 6:25

Yeah. And they were usually going through another man.

SPEAKER_01 6:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:29

To make that who's gonna make the assassin. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:31

So you had fathers or or um priests or you know, people who are in different positions who were saying, hey, like, we want you to marry these people, like these are the people that you should marry. Yeah. And if we're talking about a Christian context and not just like a historical, like arranged marriage, yeah. Um, I think from a Christian context, it was like these people were not only speaking into these men, but they were vetting these men before they married their daughters too.

SPEAKER_00 6:58

Yeah, the value on women was so much higher. Yes, at least from the perspective of this is the kind of man that you have to be before you can even consider being with this person.

SPEAKER_02 7:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:11

Um, and I'm not saying there wasn't nefarious nonsense going on at the time, because clearly there was, but at least the structures that were in place where we want to defend, protect, and hold women in a place of value. And then feminism came and told them they're not being valued and kind of reversed the reverse the the structure there.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

Right. Well, and to to put men and women on the same page for everything, it devalues women. It devalues men.

SPEAKER_03 7:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:40

And it says that, hey, we're all the same and we all have the exact same thing to bring to the table, and that's not the case. We all have unique things to bring to the table, which bring value to the table.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

Right. Um, and I mean not only that, but just because you can bring something to the table doesn't mean you should. That too, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 8:00

Yeah, I mean, it's just interesting because I mean the the history of the word dating kind of dates back to the I think it's the late 18th century or 1800s. And it was really about prostitution.

SPEAKER_00 8:19

Really?

SPEAKER_01 8:19

Yes, so it has to be it had to do with women filling their dates with other men.

SPEAKER_00 8:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 8:27

And so that's where the term comes from. And yet this is what we're striving towards.

SPEAKER_00 8:32

Talking about it from the pulpit, you know what I mean?

Feminism, Roles, And Rising Friction

SPEAKER_01 8:34

Yeah, like we're pushing people into it. And so I'm like, okay, like I'm not saying dating in itself is you know, sinful or wrong, and I'm not saying that the God can't use it. He clearly has. But at the end of the day, I'm like, okay, like what's the best way for us to go about this and connect people in a way that is going to glorify God ultimately. And I think to go back to your previous question around like how do we walk people through that? Honestly, I think people who are coming out of the secular world, I think there's a lot of frustration there. But I think because a lot of them have probably dealt with all of the like craziness in the secular world, yeah. It's almost refreshing for them. Yeah, to be like, I don't want to do this, like I don't want to sleep around, I don't want to hook up. Yeah, I want to honor God with my body and with what I'm doing. Excuse me, coming off of uh bronchitis.

SPEAKER_00 9:25

We want you to live, don't worry. You got this.

SPEAKER_01 9:27

Sorry. Um, so yeah, I think um people have this ability to kind of look past it. Not that it's not frustrating, but I think stepping into the Christian realm, it can be frustrating because the men in the Christian world are acting the exact same as the men in the secular world. Right. And it it may not be that they're necessarily sleeping around, but they have this same idea of it's mostly physical. Like that's what they're looking for. And if they're not looking for that, they're like, oh, I want a Proverbs 31 woman. And I'm like, Do you actually know what that means?

SPEAKER_02 10:02

Right.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

Because I think you guys read it and you make this checklist, and I'm like, are you like looking into this? Right.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

Like what I what I've noticed with people with checklists is it looks strangely similar to themselves. Like people are people are almost trying to date a version of themselves that's just female.

SPEAKER_01 10:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:21

Which is like, actually, you don't want that. No, like not like not at all. Like the whole point of marriage is that you are not like the person you're gonna marry, and that is a good thing because they're gonna bring stuff to the table that frankly you suck at.

SPEAKER_02 10:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

And and you're gonna be able to bring things to the table that they're probably not great at. And and uh even if you look at um like the personality uh traits, or you do some of these different personality tests with married couples, they're almost always two totally different types of people. Yeah, and they say opposites attract, but man, I mean, most people are they really are like wanting to date themselves.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

Yeah, and it doesn't work. I mean, I don't know how much I want to go into like my previous relationships and things like that, but you know, the last guy I dated, like we literally made jokes about how we were like the same person. We had the same like laughs and like weird sounds that we made and things like that. And like we were so similar to each other, but it made me so aware of the things that I didn't like about myself. And they were things, or it made me feel like he was like mocking me in certain moments, and I'm like, this is not okay for and so it was just really funny, and he was a great guy, but I think at the end of the day, like if the values don't align and like the long-term goals and desires don't align, then it's not gonna work out. And I mean, I I think that there are certain things that you want to have kind of similar, like I I think everybody should have a hobby that they can do with their spouse or their significant other. It doesn't have to be something that you guys did beforehand or something you had to invite them into.

SPEAKER_00 12:02

It could be something new, and it probably won't be the same thing long term. Like you're gonna have to find different things in different seasons.

SPEAKER_01 12:09

Well, and I think you should be, I think when you're going into dating into relationships, and it's important to find something that each of you enjoys doing and be willing to do that with each other.

SPEAKER_02 12:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:19

Even if it's not the thing you love the most, right? So like find things to do together, yeah. And to do it for the other person. Like at the end of the day, my biggest problem with dating is that it has to do with it's all about me. It's what what do I want? It's my checklist, it's all of these things. But marriage is all about the other person. It is about sacrifice and doing the things that you don't want to do for that person. That's at least what I see in the world.

SPEAKER_00 12:45

It's like the mentality is how how close can I get to self-worship if I'm gonna have to live for other people the rest of my life?

SPEAKER_01 12:51

Yeah. Like it's wild to me. And so I think walking people along this is, I mean, I mean, I have clients where, you know, it's just really funny because you'll start with, oh yeah, like I'm open, like I want our values to align. I just want them to love the Lord. And then it's like you provide them with direction or, you know, a match or something like that. And they're like, well, actually, I I think I I want their authenticity to be this. And actually, I want them to be taller than this. And it's like all of a sudden you went from I'm open to whatever the Lord has for me to well, wait, actually, I do have a checklist that I want to mark.

Secular Habits Inside Church Dating

SPEAKER_00 13:25

Can we dig into that for a second too? Because uh like I I know that hypergamy is is like a real statistical reality. Like men uh generally speaking are going to marry across or marry down, right? And women are going to marry across or preferably for them marry up. Sure. Um, and I think in our society today, we have women are are generally more educated than men. Right. Women are waiting longer, have uh, you know, a larger body count, are oftentimes um making more money than the guys that are their same age. Yeah. Um and then uh guys are guys are being idiots and oftentimes addicted to pornography and don't care about it and and almost feel like it's not uh worth it trying to date. Like, what do you how do you navigate that environment? Like, are you are you noticing people's expectations are what every uh what every dating website looks right now, which is every girl is like, I want that you have to be at least six one and make you know six figures or don't even talk to me, which I I I've seen a lot. I don't know if you've seen these posts, but some of the things that people post are hilarious to me. Like just totally not self-aware at all. Are you yeah, like such an inflated self-value that like it's like I have five kids uh from four different dads, and I know my value. So don't, you know, don't lowball me, you know, like some some kind of weird pro yeah, like I don't get it.

SPEAKER_01 14:58

Yeah, I think well, I think this comes from the like, so I think it's a I think it's it starts with feminism, right? Feminism rose to the place where it was like, hey, like we can do all these things, and men were like, Oh, I don't have to do all these things now. So the responsibility has lowered, right?

SPEAKER_02 15:15

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:15

And so it's gone so far in the wrong direction that we're at we're that's how we got here. Yeah, and so men are not taking responsibility. You know, in the 50s or whatever it was, you had men and they're it was go to they go to work, they provide, they do these things, they have this high responsibility, and that's gone. You become a man, you become a man, and like I'm like, men are boys today.

SPEAKER_00 15:39

Even even from a biblical perspective, like the the um the whole idea of engagement was almost the equivalent of marriage. Like it was two separate contracts, but it was basically the same idea. Yeah. So um, this is why the idea, like with Joseph and Mary, when he finds out that she's pregnant, and to divorce her quietly. I'm going to divorce her quietly. Like it was to the point of it looking like a divorce before they were even functionally married because of what was going on. And uh, I think it's I think like the the thing that's important for people to see is usually it was six months to a year once families came to an agreement on who is gonna be married, what was gonna happen. And then that guy is going and building a house. You know what I mean? And he's he's setting things up, he's getting everything ready. Yeah, and I love it. Doug Wilson says this. He says, You want to become the kind of person the person you'd want to be with would want to be with.

SPEAKER_02 16:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

Like that's that's the workload while you are single and looking for that. Um but to your point, once somebody knew I'm going to marry, like this is the goal. Yeah, it was the next year's me making sure I'm getting all my crap in order so that I'm prepared to do this thing. And uh that's generally not the mentality with guys today.

SPEAKER_01 16:59

Well, it's not the mentality, but if it is the mentality, the funny thing is that expectation lies on both the woman and the man.

SPEAKER_02 17:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:08

And it's like, well, biblically, or in that time, it was the man preparing a space for his wife, right? Her responsibilities were different. But today the expectation is, well, if I'm going, if a man is going to prepare a place, well, then the woman needs to prepare her space, or like she needs to have the income and the job and the, you know, all these things as well. And so, and I can't I can't speak too much to like, how do we fix that? Because it's like, I mean, ultimately, like the it's a long-term solution.

SPEAKER_00 17:38

What's ironic to me too is those are not the things that are generally attractive to a guy, nor does he care about from a lot of people relational standpoint. But he begins to think about her as an economic commodity.

SPEAKER_01 17:51

Well, right.

SPEAKER_00 17:52

You better bring the stuff that I'm supposed to provide to the table more to help me.

SPEAKER_01 17:56

Right.

SPEAKER_00 17:56

You know, and and it is, it's it's strange. It's not a normal thing.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

It's really interesting and weird to me that like men are like, oh, she has to have, you know, she has to be super successful and she has to have all these things. And I'm like, well, what are you gonna do?

Checklists, Hypergamy, And Expectations

SPEAKER_00 18:11

And ironically, uh I think if you're thinking biblically, it should be the opposite. You should be thinking, I don't want her super involved in this particular job. I don't want her in these why because I want her to have children and be a mom and unplug from those things. And if your thought life is she needs to be another man in this relationship to help support us, you you you're kind of you kind of missed the the entire point. But yeah, there are a lot of women out there who don't want to give up a job, who don't want to give up the you know, the thing that they're doing, and the idea of having a family and having a kid seems like it's gonna tie them down and ruin their life, and you know.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

Yeah, and I think that's just that hyperindependence that we're in.

SPEAKER_00 18:51

And do you run into a lot of ladies like that in in this process right now that you, you know, you walking people through matchmaking, a lot of women who don't want kids or guys that don't want kids?

SPEAKER_01 19:02

Um, I think I think working as a Christian matchmaker, I come across it less.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:08

Um, I think if I were just working with anybody, I would see quite a bit more of it.

SPEAKER_02 19:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

But I actually, I mean, I I know people who are very successful in their lives, and they're like, I would love for a man to say, no, I got this.

SPEAKER_03 19:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

Like I don't care who you are, every woman wants to be able to sit back and relax when it comes to like jobs and making sure that we're okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:34

Like, even if they're freaking out on the inside, watching somebody else have to do it. Yeah, right.

unknown 19:39

For sure.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

I mean, we we we always have something to say.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:43

But I think we all want to be able to say, okay, he's got this.

SPEAKER_02 19:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

I don't care who you are. I don't care if you are the most feminist girl out there. There is a part of you intrinsically, naturally there, that says, I want to know he's got this.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

Right, right. Yeah. You want it, it is it we talk I've talked about this on the podcast a lot. Yeah. But men don't just have uh men and women don't just have different roles, they have different natures. Yeah, God has made us different. And although you can rebel against your nature, all you're doing is looking more trans by the day. You know what I mean? Like that's all you're doing is no, no, no, I can be what I want. No, I I don't need this or I don't need that. It kind of brings me to this thing, okay? Because I I want to bring this up. The Bible tells us in Genesis 2 that it is not good for man to be alone. And in the context of Genesis 2, it's not just talking about the man, the male, right? The you know, the XY chromosome. It's it's literally talking about mankind. Right. And and what's the context? Marriage. Okay, here's what's frustrating for me from a from a church perspective, all right? It seems like you do a marriage series, you're talking to people about how important marriage is, how beautiful marriage is, how we need each other, how we got to work together, and it's so good and such a blessing and a beautiful thing that God has given to us. And then we'll do a message on singles, and then we're trying to like reel and backtrack, like, but it's also great to be a single, and you know what, it's even better than being married, and like, you know, because you don't need this, and you don't need and like, what which which is it? Yeah, like which like don't lie to people. Yeah, is it one or the other? And I I would say being single is not a gift, it sucks. Like, it's not a like people want to say, Well, well, hang on though, because in Corinthians he says, I wish that all were like me. Yeah, and and Paul had a gift of singleness, right? And I'm like, okay, the gift of singleness means I literally don't want to be with anybody. I have no desire to do that, and my my the whole desire that and this, by the way, this is not for one month, guy who just broke up, girl who just broke up. This is no, literally, I just don't have that desire in me, period. And I'm just gonna use my life for ministry. Okay, that is a gift of having no desire to do that because God wants to use you in that category. Yeah, but I I just want to say this because I think it's important. I think we need to stop talking about singleness as a gift because it's not. Some people, a very few, a small group, have a gift of singleness. The rest of the singles I know desperately want to get married, yeah, want to find that other person, are frustrated with the fact that they don't have somebody yet, and are pretty pissed off with the world for making it so freaking hard to find somebody that they actually want to be with. And I just want to go first and say, from a church standpoint, I think we're confusing people more. Yeah, I don't think we're helping people like find a spouse. I think we're trying to tell everybody either work hard for marriage that it's amazing and you should be married and you're going to be married and it's gonna be great, or you're single and stay that way and don't worry about it because it's basically a gift, anyways. Yeah. We're we're we're there's some double messaging here that does not align. And I think scripturally, we're we're being dumb about the way that we communicate it. Do you does that resonate with you?

SPEAKER_01 22:58

Yeah, I yeah, I mean, I definitely get what you're saying, and I and I would agree. Like, I think this idea of singleness being a gift in itself, I would agree with you. Like, I don't know that it's necessarily a gift. I think the time we have when we're single can be a gift because it gives us because and you know, and Paul talks about it. That I agree, like, yeah, you know, we don't we don't have to worry about somebody else, and we don't have to include them in our lives and these things. Like, yeah, I just took a three-week trip to Europe. I didn't have to work praise the Lord.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

Yeah, and you got to do that and enjoy it.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

Yeah, um, and it was, you know, and it was a time for me to be able to sit with the Lord and talk through things, and and so I think that the time can be a gift, but I think singleness in itself, I would agree, is it's more it's it's a frustration, it's a challenge.

SPEAKER_00 23:44

It's the equivalent of saying to Adam, honestly, man, you should just be content. Yeah, you know what I mean? You should be great. You don't need, I mean, and you can think about it, you can focus so much of your time right now on just these animals. Yeah, just take care of them, get your pet. What are your plants, Adam? This is a great time for you to reflect. And look, he's walking in the garden in the cool of the day with God.

SPEAKER_02 24:07

Right, right.

Preparing For Marriage Like It’s A Mission

SPEAKER_00 24:08

And our answer is you have God, it's enough. But actually, the Bible is saying, no, it's not, it's not good for you to be alone. In fact, God's like, This is not good. And I just think we're trying to like whitewash it and be like, nah, man, it's beautiful. I know it's in rebellion to God's creation ultimately and part of a broken system that we have to deal with this, but it's great for you. And we want to encourage you in that. Yeah, I don't know. It drives me nuts.

SPEAKER_01 24:37

And I think that that's why I want to help people singles so badly, is because A, I don't think the church does a great job with encouraging and facilitating that problem. Um, and I think, you know, I think most singles ministries are worthless.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

Tell me, tell me why. Because it because I want to talk about young adults too, but maybe in a minute, you know.

SPEAKER_01 25:04

And I probably have a little bit of a different perspective on young adults. Good. I hope you do because I've I've helped lead young adults.

SPEAKER_00 25:09

Well, let's start with singles.

SPEAKER_01 25:10

Yeah, so we'll say we'll start with singles first. First off, I think when you have a single specific ministry, like at the end of the day, it just becomes a me market. It just becomes people are coming there to see if they can find a wife, which I don't think necessarily is a bad thing, but I think people come with the wrong intentions and then it can become something that is clicky and it's not God honoring. It's not it's not glorifying to God.

SPEAKER_00 25:33

The closest thing I can think of when I think about a singles group or a singles gathering is like a celebrate recovery group.

SPEAKER_02 25:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:44

Like everyone seems to come in with a little bit of like a victim. Like, I'm incomplete.

SPEAKER_02 25:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:50

You know what I mean? And I'm and it shouldn't be that way.

SPEAKER_02 25:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:54

Like, cause your value isn't less, how God made you and uh your, you know, the the the from the jobs that you have and the the things that you've done in your life and your testimony. You're not like broken as a person, right? You're just looking for your person so that you can fulfill the thing that God, uh at least at some level has said this is what it's supposed to look like. Right. Hanging out in those environments is pretty wild sometimes. It it almost feels like every it's like, are you guys okay?

SPEAKER_01 26:25

Well, and I think it's you know, I and I hate to say this.

SPEAKER_00 26:29

Go ahead. This is a safe place. It's not going out.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

I mean, it is, but it's going out to everyone. Um, man, singles ministries attract some weird people.

SPEAKER_00 26:39

Yeah, come on, come on. It's like some of y'all listen, there's a reason you're still single. And I, you know, and I I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

I mean, I I went to a singles ministry uh like event at one point, and I sat in this group with people, and you know, they went around in a circle, and I was just like, these are not my people. Like, where do how do I find people that like I can relate to? Because I don't relate to any of these people. And I mean, you have different groups for different things, like, and I'm talking really more specifically church singles ministries. Yeah, they're just kind of weird. Yeah. I mean, obviously, I'm a part of a singles ministry that I do the dating coaching and matchmaking for, and it really is like those events are more along the lines of like, hey, like, let's get singles together. So the events and and the ministry side of that is really more like just connect with people, go have fun, like connect with people who are in the same, you know, mindset or you know, place of life, but it's it's it's more about just like meeting people and less about dating people.

SPEAKER_02 27:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:43

Um, whereas obviously dating coaching and matchmaking is like, no, I'm looking for somebody.

SPEAKER_02 27:48

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

So it's a little bit different. And I do think that there are some good ministries out there for singles that are super encouraging. Um, and they, you know, they talk a lot about, you know, what to do in that singleness and everything. But I I would agree, like I think we need to, we need to like push people towards marriage more. And it's like, how do we do that?

SPEAKER_00 28:07

The churches that I've seen, either the singles ministry, like I said, it's like a celebrate recovery, yeah, or it's just a hookup group where people are making lots of mistakes with each other because we take all the people with the same struggles and we put them together because we think that if we get more of the same people with our same problems, that we'll grow.

SPEAKER_02 28:26

Right.

Work, Money, And Misaligned Incentives

SPEAKER_00 28:26

And I just I don't know. I I struggle with that. I like the idea of events. Like we, you know, in our co we used to be a proper people, Keris. We had dances and you know what I mean, and balls, and like it was a it was a thing, and you would dance with somebody and ask them to dance, and you had a dance card, and you had like, you know, there were there were events where um communication and open lines uh had a place in an environment where you weren't gonna be as stupid either.

SPEAKER_02 28:57

Right.

SPEAKER_00 28:57

And I feel like um uh a lot of that is uh we removed all the fun from it and we tried to make it more gospel focused, and and actually when we did that, we removed it from the gospel and from real life at the same time. How do you coach people who let's say are struggling or in that place where it's like, man, I'll be honest, I am a little awkward. Yeah, I'm probably clearly I'm not killing it in this area, yeah, uh, man or woman. What are some of the things that you walk them through? How do you how do you help people navigate that?

SPEAKER_01 29:32

Yeah, well, I think the first thing with events, first off, I'm just gonna say, if I could have a space that I could hold events like that, I would do it.

SPEAKER_00 29:40

Give me some time, Caris. I'm working on it. Give me some time.

SPEAKER_01 29:42

Like, I would be like, we're holding a ball every week? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

That is way too much. No, that's too many. Okay, once a month.

SPEAKER_01 29:49

Okay, maybe um, no, so I actually think you can take so many lessons from those kinds of events historically.

SPEAKER_03 29:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 29:56

And I think the first thing is setting the right expectations and and Both parties knowing what the expectations are.

SPEAKER_03 30:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:02

So I think that's one thing is so knowing the expectations, knowing the boundaries, what are you guys looking for, being aligned and things. But I think a lot of the time the people who are, you know, seeking, whether they're seeking dating coaching or they're just trying to figure out, like, hey, like, why am I single or where do I find somebody? Some of it is addressing, like, okay, are you putting yourself in the right, you know, environments to meet somebody?

SPEAKER_00 30:25

Are you too busy for it?

SPEAKER_01 30:26

Are you too busy for it?

SPEAKER_00 30:27

Um, are you leaving before the last song at church?

SPEAKER_01 30:30

Yeah. Exactly. Like, are you escaping the lobby?

SPEAKER_00 30:33

Like, people, like, are you even are you even serving anywhere? Are you in small groups? Like, or do you smile at people? Like, or do you yeah. What is it? What is it with uh what's the thing? What why is it with girls, Caris? It's like their their way of um uh saying I'm potentially interested is looking at that person once and then looking away and expecting him to just know.

SPEAKER_01 30:56

You know, and I tell so I tell most of my clients, if not all of them, I'm like, guys, like men are black and white. Yeah, and most of them have no idea that you're interested. You need to let them know. And I actually love talking about, you know, people will bring up like Ruth and Boaz and all these things, and I'm like, guys, Ruth laid at his feet, but she did something clear and was like, I'm here.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:19

And I'm interested.

SPEAKER_00 31:21

And I'm not, I'm not advocating for that. And uh I could even take that story and make it way worse for everybody. But the the reality, like, I do think I would want to tell um ladies if there is a guy that you're legitimately interested in, uh dress up that day, put some like put some perfume on, find yourself standing in front of him, smiling at some point, and say hi. Like that's okay. And some people are like, no, no, no, I want the man to pursue me. He's not gonna run unless he even knows that this is a potential thing.

SPEAKER_01 31:56

Yeah, he can't pursue you.

SPEAKER_00 31:57

He's gonna end up on some Me Too, you know, board because you know he looked at you wrong or so. It's a weird world.

SPEAKER_01 32:02

It is a super weird world.

SPEAKER_00 32:03

It's a weird world.

SPEAKER_01 32:04

Yeah, so I think the first thing is like just being like transparent to a certain extent.

SPEAKER_00 32:10

Being clear.

SPEAKER_01 32:11

Be clear that you're interested in.

SPEAKER_00 32:12

You are not as overt as you think you are.

Singleness Isn’t A Gift For Most

SPEAKER_01 32:15

Yeah, we're not. And then I mean, I think, and then yeah, so like setting those boundaries, being clear about things, um, and then identifying lies that you're believing is one of the big things that we talk about is like what are the like what are the um self-deprecating, you know, yeah, thoughts and lies that you are like resting in that you have allowed to take over your whole life. And you know, like whether are we gonna let's pray through some of those things or like what are steps that we can take to, you know, start walking in a different direction? And so I think that's some of the stuff. I'm giving you guys all my tips right now.

SPEAKER_00 32:51

These are great. I'm learning so much. I also think for guys, I was gonna say, I think it's kind of the same thing though. It is. Could you could you shower? You know, could you do your do your hair wear like care about what you wear a little bit?

SPEAKER_01 33:05

Yeah, you know, I think men need to men on the men's side, yeah, like men really need to consider like how are you presenting your try harder. Well, like go talk to go talk to a friend and ask them, hey, how am I dressing? Yeah like am I dressing in the clothing that actually fits me well?

SPEAKER_00 33:25

Like how like how did you brush your teeth before you went to talk to this person? Yeah, did you brush your hair?

SPEAKER_01 33:32

Like, how are you coming across? I mean, we have events, we do virtual events too, and um, I mean, people will like get on these events and they're in like a hoodie with their hood up in a dark car, and you're like, they can't see you.

SPEAKER_00 33:45

Yeah, it's it's like it's the emo kid, you know, from the 90s, but like we don't dress that way now, so now it's just a hoodie over my head, you know, in a chat room.

SPEAKER_01 33:54

It's some wild stuff, and I mean, I think at the end of the day, it's like, guys, like put some effort in like on both sides. And I mean, I'm a firm believer in chivalry and like that it's not dead. Like, we still see good guys out there doing great things. Most of them are married, so that's the problem that most women there is a reality to where uh getting married matures you 100% in a different way, yes.

SPEAKER_00 34:20

And so I like I I've I've said before that I think the a difficulty with uh single moms is that they tend to be looking for married dads. Sure. Um, because and I don't mean that they're trying to be like a a a home wrecker, I mean they're looking for somebody with the maturity of somebody who's already been married. Yeah. So you're almost always looking for a divorce person, which then puts you kind of in a weird spot again, oftentimes.

SPEAKER_03 34:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

Um not always, but oftentimes. Uh but there's a maturity that happens to a guy when he gets married that he's not gonna carry prior to being married. And let's be honest, women are generally a little more mature than men are. Like that's just that that's just kind of how things roll. There's a there's um um uh calmness, there's a kindness, there's an awareness that women tend to carry that guys just don't always um before before they're married.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

Yeah, and I think part of that, I think that comes back to natures to a certain extent, because I think that that's part of the like helper nature that God has given us as women, yeah, is that we have the ability to like think a little bit more broadly. Like the things that men do that we're just like, what what did you think about this?

SPEAKER_00 35:31

I would just say emotional intelligence for me. Like that to me is the that to me is the greatest um difficulty for most guys. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but I I think that's I think that's good. So okay, so brass tacks, very practical wisdom. You brought up finding yourself in the right environments. Try a little bit harder, and you're not as uh overt as you think you are. Yeah, be a little bit more blunt, maybe if you're actually interested in somebody, anything else that you're like, this would really be helpful.

SPEAKER_01 36:00

You you talked about identifying personal lies too that are killing your confidence in those situations, or that are holding you back from being open to the right kind of guy, because I think have so it's really throw out the checklist. Yeah, like throw it out. Um, because I think so many people have this checklist or they have these preferences that they're like, oh well, I like blondes or I like I want somebody who's this tall or whatever. And they're so like these things do not affect your marriage at the end of the day, right? And I remember one of the couples that I kind of um put together, I went to each one of them individually and I was like, Hey, like, what do you think about this person? And both of them were like, No, no, never, and then I got but like I had identified, I think there's like a discernment, there has to be a discernment in matchmaking, obviously.

SPEAKER_03 36:49

Right.

SPEAKER_01 36:50

But being I was just like, hey, like let's hang out together. Like I just started inviting them to the same things, yeah, and then eventually they like picked up on it. Yeah, they picked up on like why I had put them together, right? Like why I was like, you guys need to talk to one another. They understood they were being played, yeah, yeah, kind of. Yeah, yeah, and and so ultimately I think it just kind of comes down to like you guys have to throw out these checklists that you think are what you need because at the end of the day, what God is probably gonna bring to you is the polar opposite from what you think that you're not it's not it's not gonna be your list, it's gonna be his list. Exactly, right?

SPEAKER_00 37:26

Yeah, and every human being is damaged goods, and by that I mean we're uh all uh have you know sin problems and issues. None of us are great and perfect at everything. And you're not uh you're not in general settling, you're growing together. And until you're growing together, both of you are going to be uh deficient. Yeah, you know what I mean. We make up each other's weaknesses, we fight to encourage each other and in and strengths, and uh getting to do that in marriage grows you in a way that it just it's just not going to the same outside of marriage. So yeah, uh, I think those things are important.

Why Singles Ministries Often Miss

SPEAKER_01 38:01

But yeah, and it makes me like I'm like, we could do a whole podcast on divorce. Yeah, but that's one of the things that people come up, they're like, I'm not willing to date somebody who's divorced. And I think that again, that is a whole other conversation around like, hey, like, where does this play into things and what does the Bible say about it? And most people come to a place where it's like, well, it says that if you marry a divorced person that you're committing adultery and these things. And I'm like, well, can God redeem that though? Or are you telling me he can't?

SPEAKER_00 38:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:30

And I'm sorry, you're like, we can go like real deep into that kind of stuff. And um, so yeah, I think that's at some point.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

Maybe we'll dig into that. Yeah. Where can people use your services if they want to, Caris?

SPEAKER_01 38:44

Um, they can't, we can link it into the podcast just so it's easy. Um, or they can go to my Instagram account.

SPEAKER_00 38:50

Okay. There you go. We'll get some work done. Well, hey, I'd loved having you on. Thanks for talking through this. Uh, I think we probably scratched the surface of how much is in this particular topic, but it's probably helpful, good start for people that are curious and wanted to think through this pr uh topic a little bit more. So thanks for coming on. Hope you all have an amazing week, and we'll talk to you all soon.