Navigate Podcast
Welcome to Navigate, we are two long term friends doing life and ministry together. I got tired of the same ole answers when I started looking for help when it came to my walk with God. So together we go deeper than most would on topics that most people have heard or were taught but never fully understood. It is our way of simplifying concepts that we may have over complicated throughout our lives. Bringing theology and life experience into each episode. It is our hope and desire to help Navigate your Christian walk with you
Navigate Podcast
Dating and Relationships
What if the church is great at events but weak at community—and young adult ministry is stuck in the middle? We open with a hard look at crowd-driven models that produce energy without mentorship, then pivot to what actually changes lives: hospitality, accountability, and intergenerational wisdom. Karis shares a pivotal story of a young adults leader who asked her, “Are you really a Christian?”—a painful question that led to repentance and growth. That moment reframes the whole debate: programs don’t transform people, people do.
We dig into identity in the age of social media and why the “I can do better” mindset quietly destroys promising relationships. From group dates that raise honesty to small groups that practice real care, we offer simple structures that keep character ahead of chemistry. We get practical on preferences and apps—why “build your own partner” checklists miss the point, how to spot aligned values and direction, and when to trust long-term potential over instant spark. Age gaps get a nuanced treatment too: sometimes they reflect maturity and shared mission, sometimes they mask responsibility avoidance. The key is motive, trade-offs, and the community that will hold a couple together once the novelty fades.
For divorced singles reentering the scene, we talk healing without perfectionism, boundaries without fear, and the wisdom pain can produce when guided by mentors. And we end with a provocative idea: matchmaking as a modern, voluntary version of arranged marriage, where introductions come with advocates who stay. Call it a band-aid in a bridge-less age, but it points to a larger goal—a church culture where elders shepherd, hospitality is normal, and people are seen beyond Sundays.
Tune in for a candid, hope-filled guide to choosing community over anonymity, conviction over convenience, and growth over the myth of the unicorn. If this resonates, share it with a friend, subscribe for more honest conversations, and leave a review with the one belief about dating or church you’re rethinking now.
Welcome everybody to Navigate Podcast. Pumped to be back at it and back on. I actually have Karis on for another conversation around relationships, dating, uh, internal difficulties that people are generally struggling with. We had a really good conversation last time we were on. I want to dig in and kind of do a part two on this and go a little bit farther uh on some of these particular podcasts. Karis, how are you doing?
SPEAKER_01:I'm doing great. How are you?
SPEAKER_00:Did you enjoy the podcast last time?
SPEAKER_01:I I love this. I love doing this.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, just so much fun. You uh you you have no problem with communication. In fact, communication was um kind of I mean, uh uh for those of you that don't know, Keris basically runs communication for King's Banner Church right now because I am certifiably um inappropriate word here. I'm gonna say I'm retarded. You know, I'm just I don't have it put together there. I uh it's maybe at some point I will be knowledgeable and wise about it. I just don't think it makes sense to spend a ton of time working on something that you're not good at. I think get better at the stuff that you're really good at and then find other people who are just naturally more gifted than you rather than waste time getting to 50% of what somebody else could do just naturally.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Uh you're fantastic at it. So uh for those of you that don't know, she gets the communication piece um and it's fabulous. So thank you for that.
SPEAKER_03:Thanks.
SPEAKER_00:So uh last time we talked about singleness in general, one of the things I wanted to jump into right away is uh this idea, uh, this ministry that has never existed previously in generations of the church, but has come into existence. Um really, I think it's it's not come from a great place like Vody Bachum would argue that it's come from it's a it's part of an evolutionary theory uh that is snuck into the church. But I want to talk about young adults. I really struggle with young adults. So let me can I lay out why? Yeah, and then I want to dig into that, and then I want to talk about um why it's a necessary evil, maybe right now, uh, and and some of the difficulties around personal struggles that people have with these relationships. Identity is just massive right now. I mean, people, you know, the self-help Christianity, the the um the social media world has rendered people more self-conscious than I think they've ever been in their life in person. But young adults to me is this um it's a group of people all struggling with the same sin patterns, kind of in the exact same place in life, who believe that the only way that they're going to be able to connect and draw closer to God is with people who are in the exact same state in life.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. Maybe that's a maybe that's a a straw man. Yeah. Like maybe if I if I was gonna pitch it the other way, I would say, well, isn't that just the church in general? Yeah. You could say, well, maybe it's all but like, nah, but all those people are in different age groups, different professions, different years of you know, relationships and different things. I don't know. I feel like young adults is a great place for prolonging adolescence. And I think it's come from a background of uh separating kids and then uh students from the congregation, creating a separate service uniquely for them that caters to them and tailors to them, that actually doesn't look a whole lot like the the actual uh you know, covenant people, the the congregation that's there. And then you get to a place where you're like 18, but you're still in a ministry that's catered for students. And then you graduate, and the ministry that you've been a part of looks nothing like where your parents are worshiping. It looks nothing like the ministry that you just came out of.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_00:So you go to a different church that has an extension of the ministry that you just came out of, which still looks like student ministries, but with people who have aged out and are now also that age. So it's more acceptable that none of us are growing up together.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Help me. Help me understand why this is a good thing. Advocate.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So I've walked through a lot of seasons of young adults, and um, so I started with our our previous church, you know, I started with that young adults group when it first launched.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And and so, and I I would call myself one of the the OGs from you know, the young adults ministry at that time. And I I watched it walk through so many different seasons with different leaders and different formats and different things. But I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt, like that is also where my faith took off. And so, and so I think that there are good, there's good and there's bad.
SPEAKER_00:Tell me why. Like, what happened in young adult ministry for you? Because my wife for her, it was middle middle school ministry. Yeah. When she just got wrecked, and I was like, that's crazy. That was the weirdest time in my entire life. Like, no, you know what I mean? But yeah, there's a maturity thing there, maybe between guys and girls.
SPEAKER_01:So I think there's a huge um, I think actually since you said it, I think middle school and college age slash young adults are two of the most important ministries or ages that we should be targeting as a church. Okay. And the reason is this those are the two times in our life where we are searching for who we're gonna be. When you hit middle school, all of a sudden you're like, oh my gosh, puberty, like, who are my friends?
SPEAKER_00:Who likes to be like a massive identity catalyst for your identity?
SPEAKER_01:Yes, exactly. So middle school is that first time, but you have your parents walking alongside you. You have, you know, people who are pouring into you that are adults. But when you get to college, all of a sudden you're leaving your parents home. You have this kind of autonomy, and it's really up to you to figure out how you're gonna do your are they leaving their parents' home scared. Some of them are they well, if they're living on campuses, which is a whole nother problem. That's a bit right. And so I think pulling people in and being able to be like, we're gonna walk alongside you, we're gonna help help you navigate this time where you're trying to figure out who are you gonna be for the rest of your life, sure, is really important. But I think more than that, for me, it was who are the people who are going to go into adulthood with you. And like, because I think the people that you surround yourself is like a huge impact. Yeah, it matters.
SPEAKER_00:It matters who your friends are, and your friends are not always gonna be 50-year-old people.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um, no, exactly.
SPEAKER_00:No offense, 50-year-olds. We love you too. Yeah, but you don't want to hang out with 23-year-olds either.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. And so I I think that there's a balance. I think that it's good for you know, college age and young adults to be a part of the greater church and be in positions where they are learning and they are getting wisdom from older individuals, which is why I think what I don't see a lot of in young adults' ministries is actually having older adults be being the ones who are leading the groups. Okay. Um, so most of the time it's a peer who's leading.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, whereas there was a season in our previous young adults where I had somebody, so our leader in our group was probably 10 years older than me. So she was in her 30s.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:But she was a leader.
SPEAKER_02:Was she married?
SPEAKER_01:She was not at the at the beginning.
SPEAKER_02:That drives me nuts.
SPEAKER_01:And it was really funny because she didn't want to get married.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Um, she had no desire to be married. She married now. She is married now.
SPEAKER_00:Um sorry, I'm just I'm just over here shooting down nonsense. Go ahead, give me a bit.
SPEAKER_01:They met at the church. Um, but it was one of those things, but she I think she impacted me so much because she was the person in my life who sat me down on the stairs in the building, stairs going downstairs, and she said, Are you really a Christian? Do you really love Christ?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I was so mad. How do you? You're getting a little bit of my testimony a little.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But she I was so mad at her.
SPEAKER_00:What were you coming out of, Keris?
SPEAKER_01:Like what I was in college. I was living my life, you know, in the world, but calling myself a Christian, going to church every week, but you know, doing kind of whatever I wanted. I was very judgmental, very just like my my actions internally did not match the words that I would say.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:We'll put it that way.
SPEAKER_00:And you had a very aggressive internal dialogue. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And she sat me down one day and she said, Do you are you sure you love Jesus? And I was like, Excuse me. She's like, Because the way you're living doesn't show it. I was so mad, like so mad, but I went into my car and balled my eyes out because I knew inside she was right.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And that's so good.
SPEAKER_01:And it was one of those moments I got re-baptized the next week.
SPEAKER_02:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:Like I was like, something's gotta change. And like that was my shifting point.
SPEAKER_00:That's so cool. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And so I think that's why I have such a whole thing.
SPEAKER_00:Because it's like that's where I got transformed. Yes. Okay. I love that.
SPEAKER_01:But I think a huge part of that is because I had people who were speaking into my life who were not exactly in the same place. Yeah. Right.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:They weren't just friends, like they were mentors. They were mentors. And when I started helping lead young adults, I think one of the challenges I came across is I was still kind of in that young adult's age range.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And so while I was trying to mentor people, I also wanted to be their friend. And it was just this, it just becomes really hard.
SPEAKER_00:So here's a take on this, okay? Tell me if you agree. Um, to to flip the to turn the gun the opposite direction.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I think as churches have become um event-driven evangelicalism or event-driven big Eva or whatever you want to call it, uh, it has become less and less of a place where people are mentoring, caring for, and doing community with other people who actually need someone to walk alongside. And it's I go to a service, I check a box, and I leave, and I'm actually not involved in the life of the church outside of maybe saying hi to people on a Sunday morning at the doors, which is an event.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Like it very much is a uh we are we are coming together for this thing, we hear a message which helps us all feel like we're doing it. Right. And then we go out. And I'm not saying, look, it's a it's a caricature. I get that. But let's be honest, most churches um in our culture today, which does not like hospitality, doesn't like intentional um intrusiveness might be the wrong word.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But we don't necessarily do life together, we do service together and we call it doing life together. At least in a young adult group, uh, people have enough time on their hands where they're gonna go to, you know, Chick-fil-A or something at 11 o'clock and hang out and talk till, you know, two in the morning. Yeah. Where at least life is happening together and you are growing in friendships and doing things. And in an average church, most people don't even they don't want to do anything. I talked to a guy yesterday who was like, I tried to set this thing up with a small group where we would have three different couples and they would shift through like hosting each other, right? Like, let's hang out together. And he said, We went through it once. I tried to set it up against the next year. I was turned down by every single couple. They're like, I don't want to do that. It wasn't fun. We don't like hang, it was just, we're just too busy, we have too much going on. And so there is an event Christianity mentality in services today that is not facilitating mentorship, right? It's not facilitating time after services, right? And people have become too busy for other people. And the one thing that I would say uh young adults tend to have uh more than other people is time and a desire to actually grow and hang out with people and find out who my community is coming out of family to not having your own family yet. There is a massive void there where you're looking for people to walk with. And our congregations today, uh, you can say whatever you want to say about small groups. Uh it's we're probably not doing a great job of the covenant people of God walking together, being hospitable, showing people what that's supposed to look like. Like King's Banner, our desire is to set up uh each elder with like 20 people. Like these are the people you're walking with. This is gonna be your group. Yeah, you're helping facilitate, pour into, answer questions. If you know you're marrying people, you sometimes uh unfortunately you're burying people, you're helping people walk through different things, so that we don't lose that covenant community that's supposed to happen. But that is not the average thing. So so when this lady took you aside, was it after a service or was it in the middle of a service, or when did that happen?
SPEAKER_01:Um, so the way that we did young adults back then was it was really it was small group focused. Yeah um and and that it was it was mentorship and small group and we did dinner together. That was that was young adults, and so I think it was after our small group time, um, if I remember correctly, because I was in a weird place in my life because I was totally willing to like tell people what I was going like I was looking for accountability, but when the accountability actually came, I was like, excuse me.
SPEAKER_00:You're like begging for it, but not expecting it. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And and so that's kind of I appreciated that that aspect of it. And so while yes, we had some events here and there, it really was more hospitality and intentional community focus.
SPEAKER_00:I think it's interesting that one of the qualifications for uh an elder is hospitality. Yeah, and I think it's overlooked all the time. We read all the character traits, we're like, you know, don't be addicted to much wine and don't be pugnacious and doing this for sordid gain. And it's like practicing hospitality. Right. Practicing like this is an ongoing thing in your life. And I heard a pastor teach on this, and uh, it was hospitality is not just inviting people over and hanging out with them, it's it's smiling at them. Yeah, you know what I mean? It's being kind. I'm like, no, that's called kindness. That's not hospital. The whole point of hospitality is that you are hosting people, that you're inviting them into your life. Yeah, and uh it's serving event Christianity that we see so often is a pastor who shows up for that one Sunday a week, does a great job, and then disappears and nobody knows anything about his life, and he honestly doesn't want to invite people into his life because people are hard.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:That's but that's ministry. Like that's the difference between being a pastor and a and a really convincing speaker is your willingness to do life with other people and walk with them and help them grow.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And uh, let's be honest, the ways that we grow in church, uh, the most memorable things that happened to us in church, it wasn't the worship, right? And it wasn't the message. In fact, you probably won't even remember what last week's message was about.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Two minutes after it happened, like you you will remember the people that stopped and talked to you.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_00:You remember going out and hanging out with that person afterwards, you'll remember those people inviting you over to their home and putting it you at their table.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It's actually the relational aspect that is so important. And I think when we read in Acts chapter two, when people were going, you know, to each other's house and breaking bread together and they had everything in common, it wasn't like, well, once a week they would get together and they would hear a message, and then they would all go home and focus back on the rest of the stuff they had to do in their lives. And that's how the church grew. Yeah. No, no. So, so I think, and and again, I'm building this in the process, but I think what you're saying is young adults might actually be a better reflection of what the church is supposed to be than Sunday morning services are right now.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, kind of. I mean, I think I think that's where you get into, and you kind of touched on it, but I think you know, mega churches today have I think that's why you get so many people who are like, I don't like mega churches, I'd prefer a home church. Like there is something about having intentional community, and and that's where we really see discipleship and growth happen.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And so, and it and it's in that hospitality, it's in that personal relationship with one another. And that's not to say that I don't think that the Lord is using mega churches and that some of them do some things really, really well.
SPEAKER_00:Clearly, people are also running from that, right? Like a lot of people going to event-centered Christianity in a lot of ways, because they don't want, like you, don't want to be confronted about something, they don't want people knowing about their life. They like the idea of anonymity, and going to a small church means crap, people are actually gonna know me. Right. Um, this is awkward now.
SPEAKER_01:But they want it, they want it to be now.
SPEAKER_00:I just think they're terrified of it.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and it is scary, but man, it is so freeing when you're able to like let people know who you are.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And like we all want that. Every single person, whether you are single or married or you know, old or young, like we all want to be known and loved. And so our ability to to to experience that. Yeah, is I mean, in a large church, and it's so funny because you go into these big churches and people are like, Oh, well, it's really hard to find community. And yeah, I just don't know. And I'm like, I don't know what to tell you guys.
SPEAKER_00:Some some of that's on the person, yeah. 100%.
SPEAKER_01:Like, I'm like, get involved, like get on.
SPEAKER_00:It's the same, it's the same singles things. I really want to be married, but I'm not gonna find myself in any environments with people who are getting married.
SPEAKER_01:You know, and I helped put on a singles event that you know, we had 400 people come and it was an incredible experience, but like getting some of the men there was like pulling teeth. Like we were like, how do we like incentivize incentivate the guys to get it?
SPEAKER_00:Which is weird because it's like, hey, there's going to be a bunch of single ladies at this event, and they're like, nah, hard pass.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and it was so funny because it was like men actually asked, like, how well how many guys are gonna come? And I'm like, well, we want an equal amount. And they're like, no, the comp that's too much competition. I'm like, oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_00:I'm gonna need to be the only man.
SPEAKER_01:And it's so funny because the guys that I those guys are the ones that I'm like, you I feel like you actually would do better than most of the people who are already signed up.
SPEAKER_00:Wow. Tell me you're insecure without telling me you're insecure.
SPEAKER_01:For real.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And it's just, yeah, it's just people are like, oh, well, it's desperation to go to a singles event. And I'm like, no, it's not.
SPEAKER_00:It's but like look, look how we've been programmed though. Like for I I brought this up. Um actually, I think I I have a chapter in the book that I'm putting out in December. Um talking about this particular problem. But like for the first time in history, you could have a thousand people in an or or you know, ten thousand people in an apartment complex, let's say a really big apartment complex, and their geographical location has nothing to do with their social groups.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:They don't know each other. In fact, the person across the hall is probably more of a frustration to you than anything else. The person, you know, that's in the apartment above you or whatever drives you crazy. You hope you never see them. You know what I mean? Because it's like, oh, I don't actually want to be friends with people at my home. This is my sacred space. And everybody's social groups is online. So we can present how we want to present.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:We can say, we can show the best aspects of ourselves, or we can show a whole different personality that we have that we want to express and show people that has nothing to do with what I do at work or how I am. We have two, you know, two or three different identities with different people. Um, and it has nothing to do with that. And even in even in old cultures, you had the church that was at the center of a town. Right. They built the church first, and then everything got built around it. And then that geographical location, those are your people. Yeah. We do life together. You don't get to pick. And the culture, the the pulpit is going to help drive a little bit of how the culture is shaped and how we perceive things and do things. It's now the the locus of uh, let's say, you know, your group identity has nothing to do with where you actually are physically.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_00:And I think uh megachurches have benefited greatly from being a place where people can come in and hang out. And look, I'm not dogging on mega churches. No, I'm I think the point is just let's let's have an honest conversation about some of the downsides, difficulties, and avoidances that are just happening everywhere now. So when you have a guy, you know, who's thinking about coming into a room physically where there's a bunch of other people, he's like, Well, I don't get to pretend here. They're not, they're not gonna see my posts. Yeah, you know what I mean? Or or worse, you might be struggling with your identity.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_00:You know a couple of different people there who know a very different version of you than some other people that are there. And if you get in the room with both of them, how are you gonna act?
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_00:You know, what uh how am I even gonna do this? You know, how am I who am I supposed to be in this particular environment?
SPEAKER_01:Which is actually kind of funny because I am a huge advocate for if you're gonna go on a first date or any date to do make it a group date. Um my reasoning for that is because there's accountability to be who you really are.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Because people hate that people can keep people can h hold you accountable and be like, what are you doing?
SPEAKER_00:Like that's why are you being weird, bro? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. But it also makes it makes it l lower pressure, right? When there's other people to talk to and stuff like that. Um, keep and keep the conversation going.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But that accountability of being able to walk into a room and be like, okay, some people here know who I am.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Like, I think that that is what we need.
SPEAKER_00:We need people who can hold our hold us accountable and um and walk through life together. So you brought up on the last podcast this idea um that you spent a lot of time coaching singles in the lies that they tell themselves. Yeah. Like identifying those things, working through them. What are some of the bigger lies that you're seeing people deal with today? Like I said, I brought up kind of our culture today, our online identities, our actual how we actually act around other people, hiding in plain sight, as long as it's a big group, yeah, so big that I won't be noticed. It's good. It has to be exactly the right size. You know what I mean? Like so that I feel comfortable. What are some of the things that you feel like people are are especially dealing with with regard to relationships, talking to other people, growing together?
SPEAKER_01:Um, I think, I mean, I think there's a lot of people who, especially people who have who have never been married, and the older they get, the lies of just like not being worthy or not, you know, whether it's physical or um emotionally, I don't it's they a lot of people get into this place of like, well, may maybe there's something wrong with me, or you know, I'm not worthy of being loved, or you know, yeah, things like that. Most of it comes down to identity. Um, and then you do have some people who are like, you know, am I too much? Am I not enough? Like all of these different things. I mean, there are lives that everybody deals with though. Like, this isn't just exclusive to singles. I can guarantee married people also experience a lot of that as well.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. I think everybody um struggles with in our culture today, this idea because of social media, that I can do better.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I think like again, you don't have social media, it's like this is the pool. These are the people. This is the like this is what I have is what I have. There's always something better online. Now there's a there's this unlimited, seemingly amount of people that I can connect with and you know, do stuff with, and it's it's not uh, it's not realistic, yeah, but it helps them feel like you know, there's more fish in the pond. I saw a I saw a meme the other day, and it was Lois Lane with Superman, and he's like carrying you know Lois Lane away from like a burning building or something, and the thought cloud above her head says, I wonder if I could do better. You know what I mean? Yeah. I sometimes I feel like that is uh like we tend to think about lies as self-deprecating, I'm beating myself up, you know, and those are those are there and they are real. I think the the whisper that's almost more of a killer for people in relationships is this belief that I can do better. A hundred percent I'm worth way more, and that actually keeps people from seeing really good individuals who are solid that would be a great spouse who are right in front of them.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and that was gonna be the next thing I would say is the opposite side of things of people who, you know, it's like you can present somebody who has all of the values and qualities you're looking for, but you know, maybe they look a little bit differently or whatever. And it's like I'm not even going to talk to them because they don't look the way I want them to look.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Or, you know, I and there's I mean, the the dating app culture that we have that you can just swipe right or swipe left, or you know, it it creates this idea that we are able to not to mention online, you don't know if it's a boy or a girl anymore, you know? It's like a real thing. Um, I've come across a few people where I'm like, I'm actually shocked when I find out that they are trans. Yeah. There's a few people that I'm like, I would have never known.
SPEAKER_00:Ten years of hormones and surgeries. It's wild. Yeah, it's it can be it can be pretty crazy.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, but this idea that like I I mean, I think people have it in their mind that they because of how accessible dating is with dating apps, with online dating, it's this idea that you can like build your boyfriend.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Like it's like a burger shot, you know, build your own burger.
SPEAKER_01:And I'm like, I'm like, that's not, and and that's how some people see matchmaking. It's like they'll come in as a client and they're like, oh, like I want all these different things, and she's gonna find all of these different things. And it's like, that's not how it works. Like my goal is to find somebody who's going to compliment you and that you're gonna be a good match with, and that you guys would work well together. Yeah, and yes, we want to take into account your preferences and things like that, but at the end of the day, like most people don't know what they want. Most people don't know what they want.
SPEAKER_00:Say, I just want a man that makes me laugh, I will die. I'm telling you, like, I I think it's frustrating sometimes. Um, and this is one area where being married I do I think helps immensely. Sure. Cause when you actually are in that relationship, you realize that the person that you thought you married is actually not that person. No. And turns out that happens every single time. And it's really good for that to happen. It's a it's a good thing, like it's a perk, it's not a problem. Yeah, this is how God made things to be. And we would acknowledge, like before God, he knows better than we do about our life.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:He knows better than we do about the job that we need, the situation, you know, whatever we're dealing with. We we trust him and we know he knows better for us. But with a future spouse, I know better than anybody else, and maybe better than God on this one, because the person he brought me, I just, yeah, you know, I'm holding out. And then you know, people use the lame breakup. I'm just gonna focus on my relationship with God right now.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Man, dating is so I I think I don't think people realize that, you know, first off, people change over time. So the person you married is probably not gonna be the same person you're married to in 10 years. Yeah. And we grow and we change, and we, you know, in a way, like our emotions evolve and things like that.
SPEAKER_00:Tim Keller has this quote about this, and I don't love Keller at this point. That's a whole nother conversation, but I love this line. He said, uh, my wife has been married to five different men.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And all of them have been me.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Right? Exactly. We do, we we change over time and things change. So even when you find the person you think is the unicorn, right? Which by the way, look, I am a Calvinist, okay? Uh I like I am a I'm a I am a like, you know, give me the give me the no chaser Calvinism. Um and even I believe that whoever you marry, that's the person that you're supposed to be with. Not I'm trying to find a unicorn. Right. No, I really do believe that whoever you are, you uh if that person loves Jesus is running that direction, it will be exactly what you need and it will grow you the way that it's meant to. But there's a lot of people out there with this like elusive trying to find that elusive one. And I think that is just a load of garbage.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, it is like I I tell people the the one is the one you marry. Like, yeah. And I'm like, because it's a choice. You have to you have to choose somebody, and I think that God lays out many people in our lives that we could choose, right? Yeah, but the moment you decide to choose, yeah, that's the person. And I that's the one.
SPEAKER_00:I've I and it look to flip the the flip side of this too, though, for the record, is I've seen people who have had the opportunity to make it work with a really good person and then didn't because they were holding out for better and then ended up in a much worse or more difficult scenario. Absolutely. Because they just they just weren't, you know, weren't ready to consider what was the the the The things that they actually wanted versus what they felt like they wanted in the moment.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And I think that I do come across that a lot too, is people who will turn people down because of things that are like wild to me.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And and I'm like, that is not going to determine your marriage. Like that, it doesn't change who either of you are. Like it's just some interesting things. And it's like, well, I just want something different. And I'm like, okay, like I get that. Like most of my relationships have ended because I'm like, look, our values in our direction are not the same.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And now I could change my direction if I wanted to. That could be a choice that I can make. Sure. And that might be okay. But where I was at in those moments, like, those were not things that I was willing to compromise on. But they were like life-altering. This determines our marriage, where we're going, right? Right. Right.
SPEAKER_00:Like either we are going to be running the same direction and working through those, you know, weaves together.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Or one of us is literally going to have to give up on their convictions to go a different direction. And that that actually is probably wrong. Right. You don't mean convictions about their particular look or uh a mannerism. It's no literally you're you have a different direction of desire for your life, I think, than than even what God has called me to. And that's that's a different story.
SPEAKER_01:Like I I talked to one guy at one point, and he um we actually talked about whether or not as a woman I was allowed to be on a podcast to speak in other people.
SPEAKER_00:Nice.
SPEAKER_01:And he was like, no, absolutely not.
SPEAKER_00:Dang, don't send them this. Don't send them this. Line for me with this is I I don't think if a woman is opening up the Bible and teaching other men something is deeply wrong.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_00:And I would say um uh the lady wisdom in the Bible, right, is a woman. And I think there's wisdom and clarity that should be gleaned. I've told people all the time I frequently hear the voice of the Lord, and uh oftentimes it sounds strangely like my wife because God is speaking through her in moments for me. Um, but I I think wisdom is a good thing, and um podcasts are conversations, not pulpits, so chill out. Um that okay, I want to I want to bring up a couple more things. Yeah, all right. So talk to me about age gaps a little bit because you're dealing with uh people that you're trying to put together.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Tell me what your thoughts are on that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's so funny because I feel like there's age gaps are so weird because it's like there's this certain period of time in your life where it's like an age gap is totally fine.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I'm talking like 10, 15 years is like nobody blinks an eye, right? But then, you know, if you get to to a certain age on the older side, all of a sudden it's like, well, I don't know about that.
SPEAKER_00:Like it seems like at some point it's more acceptable for men to be older and women to be younger, but it isn't the inverse of that seems to be different. Yeah, the girl can't be too much older than the guy.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, I think you have a lot of like cultural connotations around that when you have women who are older than the the guy. Sure. Um but cougars, exactly. But what's really funny is almost I would say 90% of my friends who have been married in the past five years, yeah. I would say 90% of them are older than their husbands. And and most of them it's just a couple of years, and we all make jokes about it because it's fun. One of my friends there for Halloween a couple years ago, like she came as a robber and he dressed up as a baby.
SPEAKER_00:Nice. That's funny.
SPEAKER_01:Like, we laugh about it, you know. But I think at the end of the day, like culturally speaking, and you can look up the statistics around it, but younger guys are are more conservative right now. Yeah, they want to get married, they want to have kids, and they're not as concerned with like having their entire life together to do that. Whereas men in their 30s and 40s right now, like the millennial guys have this idea in their mind that they either have to have everything together before they bring somebody into their life, or they're non-committal, they don't know how to take responsibility for things, but they and they want a woman who's gonna, you know, carry them. Like they want a mom almost.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah, they're looking for a mother.
SPEAKER_01:They're looking for a mother, but that never works out. Like any woman who's really mothering her husband, like there are way uh there's other issues going here, right? Yeah, and so you know, I just listened to a podcast recently, and you know, they were it was uh there was a couple on there, and she's 11 years older than her husband.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I think she was 33, he was 22 when they got um married, and a little bit different situation because I think they grew up together, so he was kind of like he was like little brother. What she was like the babysitter and no, I think he I think she was I think she was um his sister's friend. Okay, and so like it was just like little brother vibes until and then he they grew up and working. Like it was like, okay, like he's mature for his age, and like we have a good relationship, good friendship.
SPEAKER_00:In that situation, too, though, the lady's gonna have to give some things up because he's not gonna be as far along in life from a financial perspective and everything. I don't think a lot of women would be interested in giving up. Um, unless that that young man is just killing it and doing an amazing job.
SPEAKER_01:See, that's the thing is I think a lot of these younger guys, because they have those conservative values, like they are working and they are trying to get there. And I mean, I think I mean it's just really interesting to see because first off, like dating men in their 30s is wild. Like they literally still don't have responsibility. Some of them are still living with their parents, like the young adults, I'm telling you.
SPEAKER_00:It's ruined them.
SPEAKER_01:And then, and then, and then men in their 40s only want to date women who are 20 or 30. And so you have women who are in their upper 30s or 40s who are single, have never been married, and they want to get married, but nobody is willing to marry them because now they're 40, and you know, can they have kids and all of these different things? And I'm like, guys, you have got like if you don't have it together, like and you haven't gotten married at this point, like I think you need to be more open to, you know, yeah, who's available in your age range too.
SPEAKER_00:The the thing I've I'm noticing with most guys that are in that age gap, the the 30s to 40s, yeah, they are looking at the statistics of divorce and have seen a lot of guys get taken all that they're worth because they married a young girl at one point and uh she gets older and decides she wants something else and can now take the kid for the majority of the time, and you end up paying for her lifestyle while she can go find somebody else.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And doesn't work that way as well for guys, and I would almost say for guys, it's not a bad thing to um consider in this particular environment, marrying an older girl because that's I actually think that's less of a potential threat.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and maybe that's why they're so open to it. It could be maybe that's why some of these younger guys are like, you know what? Like, yeah, she's already gone through this whole stage of like, who am I? What I mean like you talk about, and I mean, if you talk to guys who are divorced in their 30s, I mean, I think you come across some guys who like they they got married young, and then their wives all of a sudden decided, oh, like I want my freedom, I want to be more independent.
SPEAKER_00:Like, yeah, I can be better than Superman.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And then and they get burned, yeah. And and I'm like, I totally get it. And so now they're looking, which cracks me up because I'm like, well, if you if you got burned because you got married too young, but you're looking for younger women, you're gonna run into the same situation.
SPEAKER_00:You're like, that's gotta happen again. I'm like, I feel like you should date somebody older because they know like what they want and they well, it's just very telling about what the man is looking for in a relationship, what the woman is looking for in the relationship. And it's uh that dynamic's not gonna change.
SPEAKER_01:No, yeah, unfortunately.
SPEAKER_00:But I think you can uh biblically think more clearly uh than you would if you're just thinking with your emotions and your you know appetites and all that stuff to control.
SPEAKER_01:For sure, for sure. But I think those age gaps are they're just interesting because I think some of them make sense.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And then some of them don't make sense, right?
SPEAKER_00:Right. There's good reasons and bad reasons for those things to happen. The Bible's pretty wild. I mean, on age gaps. Sometimes you got like 40-year-old men with you know, like 15-year-old girls.
SPEAKER_01:That's yeah, that's a podcast for another time.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah. That can we can go down that wormhole. Um, last thing I did want to bring up with you is how do you uh through like the matchmaking stuff, how have you helped navigate divorced people? Yeah, I mean sorry, I said that in a way where it sounds like it's some plague. Not what I mean. I I do mean there is a there's a lot of difficulty in baggage. Yeah. Um, and if you've walked with somebody who's had somebody lead them, yeah, or vice versa, you know, whatever that looked like. How do you how do you help them re-engage in an environment that they have they maybe have not been involved in for the last 10 years? Yeah. And it's probably a very different environment than it was at the time.
SPEAKER_01:It's hard. I mean, I think I think we come across a lot of divorcees from the standpoint of like they are re-entering the dating market and they're like, I don't know how to do this. And so that's where our dating coaching comes into play, really, is because it's like, okay, like let's walk along, I can walk alongside you in this. Like I have, you know, I'm able to, you know, if you're gonna get on a dating app, let's do it together. So you're gonna jump on it, like I can help you walk through conversations, setting boundaries for yourself, like those kinds of things. But I think you also have I think when you have divorcees, a lot of the time they bring a lot of I'm gonna call it wisdom into the dating sphere because it's like you know, they have these experiences, pain can produce a lot of wisdom. Absolutely. And I do think that there is something to say about like, hey, have you healed from your trauma?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, or are you carrying that into the next thing? And if you because we can talk about baggage too, but I'm like or better, have you learned from it? Have you learned from it? Because I'm like, look, like some things take a long time to heal. So I don't think it's necessarily fair to say, hey, you can't date somebody until you're 100% healed from things. Sure. Because I think that that's also where you can I don't want to say you're like trauma bond with somebody, but it's like people when people can come into your life and walk alongside you and things, like you create bonds from that. And I don't think that those are always negative.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I think that there are things that like people need to see um the opposite of what they experience sometimes in order to heal from some of those things.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. I also think that if you walk through something difficult and you become so sufficient by yourself that you don't actually need anybody else, yeah, that's to me is almost anti-biblical too. Right. Because what you're all that all you're telling me is I now maintain a selective sovereignty over my sanctification. Right. And I'm not inviting anybody else in because then I'll run into those problems that I don't have anymore.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Not because I don't have those issues, but because I'm not in environments where they're gonna come up.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_00:And I think a lot of people are dodging um lessons that they don't want to learn by not inviting people into spaces where they actually would have to learn it. Yeah. And that's uh that's a whole world of people. And it's again just more, you know, more of the same um environments and you know, the culture that we've created today where you can hide in plain sight and you get to show the aspects of yourself that you want to. And um, especially who somebody who's been through something difficult like that, yeah, either they've learned from it, grown from it, and do have a little bit of a dang it, I screwed that up.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And I and I I would even say this I don't think it's a bad thing to feel um disheartened or frustrated, or even in some cases, depending on your part to play in it, shame over failing a marriage. That's a hard thing. And and look, it again, we could talk about all the different circumstances and scenarios. Yeah, I don't think it's a bad thing necessarily. I do think the thing is, did I learn from it? And am I now avoiding uh finding myself in a position where I'm going to have to walk through, you know, the process of growing and learning and becoming this thing if God actually does say this is a better way for you to live than to be alone.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, absolutely. And I think I think so you have both sides. You have divorces who are stepping back into the dating scene, and then you have singles who are are they open to dating divorcees?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And so I think there's on both sides the divorcees, I think that they have, you know, I like I said, they have a wisdom. They've got some things that they've learned from their experiences. And I would say most of them are actually more open to dating other divorcees.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Because they're like, we just know we've gone through these things already.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, but I would say for people who you get a lot of people who are like, I'm not willing to date somebody who's been divorced. Right. And I'm like, I'm like, guys.
SPEAKER_00:I found that it hasn't been they're not willing to date somebody divorced, but they're the like the guys that I know, it would be more like, I don't know that I'm willing to take on somebody else's kids.
SPEAKER_01:Which I understand.
SPEAKER_00:Blended families are tough.
SPEAKER_01:And I come from a blended family. Like I and this is where I'm like, look, I'm like, if your conviction is, if you have a conviction and you feel like that's from the Lord of not dating someone divorced, I'm not gonna like push anything on you. Like, I want you to follow your convictions to a lot of people.
SPEAKER_00:I don't know that that would be a conviction from the Lord. I mean, it's a possibility, but I don't think there's any explicit teaching in scripture or something.
SPEAKER_01:I think it's more along the line of- If a girl has kids, run. Oh, yeah, yeah. No, I I think it's more along the lines of like where you are in your study of the word sometimes, because I think that there are because I used to have the conviction of like I'm I'm not marrying somebody who's been divorced.
SPEAKER_02:Sure.
SPEAKER_01:And and that was from me being in the word and like looking at like, hey, like adultery and like yeah, yeah, I don't want to marry anything.
SPEAKER_00:Were they even allowed to be married?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and things like that. And I think I've had I've grown in that from the standpoint of like, look, like, do I believe that God can't redeem somebody who's been divorced? Because I don't think that's fair, especially from the fact that like I come from a family that there has been divorced.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I have a blended family. I have three half siblings.
SPEAKER_00:Like well, and uh and I feel like it's collateral damage from our culture.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, it is.
SPEAKER_00:We again back into these, we're in these environments where we're set up to make mistakes and do things in stupid ways.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And then coming out of that, now I have a little bit of sanity. I realize, oh, all the ideas that I had earlier are not better ideas. Now I'm trying to do it the right way.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And now I have all this baggage and I'm trying to navigate, you know, how do I do it now? But I do think things like young adults frequently become a place where people just hook up and hang out, and it perpetuates the very environment that we're trying to uh avoid and escape. Um, and I I think it's I think it's difficult.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So I don't know. I I think from uh just full circle, yeah, when we think about relationships, dating, yeah, church, to me, the biblical model of arranged marriages is 100% the best way to go.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I'm just saying, like if I could go back to that and be like, yeah, uh dads, moms, pastors having way more say in who's, you know, what's happening with who, yeah, creating environments for um, you know, opportunity that's actually healthy and not just reproducing environments that the world would see as a neutral space where you can express yourself and who you want to be outside of your family, which is actually ultimately and statistically not how you're gonna end up. Right. You're gonna be like your family is because you grew up in that environment. And to say uh getting away from my family is going to allow me to be more of my I don't know. I just think there's some there's some hilarious illusion there and we are or or uh self delusion might be a better better word. Uh do you agree with that? I mean, would you say ultimately like an arranged marriage system is probably better because you're doing that?
SPEAKER_01:So I was gonna say, like, that's actually kind of what matchmaking is. And I think when matchmaking, I think for me, yeah, like my favorite part is when I am able to get somebody together and then I'm able to walk through the difficulties with them.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_01:And that's kind of what an arranged marriage was kind of like. It's like you have mentors who are speaking into your relationship, and they're speaking into these things where you're like, instead of just calling it quits because of, you know, dot dot dot, yeah, you have somebody speaking into your life with that. And so while we do not necessarily like walk alongside them all the way to the marriage, like I'm like, I would love to do that. I actually genuinely would love to walk alongside someone all the way to the to the altar.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:From the standpoint of like, I have now talked to both of you. I know who both of you are, and I am advocating for both of you to marriage.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_01:And so, yes, I would agree that I think I think um arranged marriage and and situations where you have multiple people who are kind of walking alongside you is the best circumstance you can have.
SPEAKER_00:And are going to help hold you together after you say I do.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Surrounding yourself with people who are actually going to promote um and encourage your marriage is so vital. Like I see so many people who get married, and then you know, they've got something bad that happens in their marriage and they go and, you know, talk trash about their husband or wife or something. And I'm like, and the people around them, the people that stood next to them at the wedding are sitting there like, oh, like you should get divorced or blah, blah, blah you should leave him. And I'm like, that's not what you were called to do when you stood next to that person. Like, we cannot be talking poorly about husbands and wives. And if you're gonna stand there and support somebody's marriage, you better support it all the way till death to that.
SPEAKER_00:Holding them there even when they don't like it, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:I I think um when we look at our current culture today, and I I like this explanation, culture is what you celebrate and it's what you tolerate. Yeah. When you think about those two things, it's like, okay, well, you can look at our culture today and see this is what we celebrate, this is what we tolerate, well, this is why we're in the mess that we're in. And I I really I really believe people are like, well, what do we have to do to fix these circumstances? I think the church needs to look more like the church, yeah, and the world will then look more clearly like the world.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And do the thing where you actually invite family, really good friends, into the process of you helping navigate something that you just you don't have a monopoly on to get out of the thing what God actually intended, as opposed to, you know, um, whatever delusions we have from sitcoms and music and the world around us, which is really messy. So should we be Amish? No, uh, we're to be in the world, right? But not of the world. There is a tension here, but I think the church and family are supposed to represent a safe environment that helped you make better decisions as an individual than what you would do on your own in environments that are compromising.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I mean, I think if we had churches that we were actually able to build from the, you know, the ground up, shocking is what we're doing.
SPEAKER_03:Imagine that.
SPEAKER_01:Um, but that had a space where it's like, okay, like when people come in and we're getting to know them and we find out, hey, like this family just came in, they got a single son or whatever, I'd love to introduce you to these people. The goal is not to like make get them married right there, but like let's make sure that people know who people are here. And that's harder in big churches, yeah, especially if they're already established. But if you can do it from the ground up and become a large church, and that's just part of the culture of like, oh, we met somebody. I want to introduce you to all these different people.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I think those hospitality, hospitality, you know, shocking turns out.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But I think if we did stuff like that, I think there wouldn't be a need for a singles ministry or anything like that. Yeah. I'm still an advocate for like having people you can walk alongside like.
SPEAKER_00:I think what you're saying is we need band-aids in an in an age where there's no bridges.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I think I I get that. I and I think you have to navigate the world that we're in. Yeah. And I'm always gonna make fun of stupid things that I think are not necessarily great solves.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But at the end of the day, we're trying to find helpful ways back to sanity. Yeah. And that's just how it is. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And if you can walk along beside people like through their entire life, awesome.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And then maybe you don't need any of these, you know, bridge ministries, as we would call them.
SPEAKER_00:Band aid ministries.
SPEAKER_01:Band aid ministries. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Another conversation. Well, hey, uh, Karis, this has been awesome. Thanks for coming on again, talking through some of this stuff with us. You're fantastic. Keep crushing it, doing all the things. Um, and uh, we'll connect again soon.
SPEAKER_01:Awesome. Thanks so much.
SPEAKER_00:You guys have a great week.
unknown:Bye.
