Navigate Podcast
Welcome to Navigate, we are two long term friends doing life and ministry together. I got tired of the same ole answers when I started looking for help when it came to my walk with God. So together we go deeper than most would on topics that most people have heard or were taught but never fully understood. It is our way of simplifying concepts that we may have over complicated throughout our lives. Bringing theology and life experience into each episode. It is our hope and desire to help Navigate your Christian walk with you
Navigate Podcast
Masculinity
Forget the hot takes on manhood. We’re after something deeper: a vision of masculinity that can carry real weight at home, in the church, and in a culture that often feels like modern Corinth. Justin and Michael weave story and Scripture to challenge passive niceness and chest-thumping control, arguing for a better way—servant lordship—where a man both washes feet and makes the hard call when it counts.
We trace Michael’s journey from the Army to a crisis of idols to faith in Christ, then into marriage and fatherhood shaped by Scripture as the final authority. Along the way, we unpack headship and submission without power games, recover the strength of ezer as a help in trouble, and confront how authority without influence collapses. The heartbeat is 1 Corinthians 16:13: act like men. In the Greek, that’s a call to courage—a virtue that undergirds justice, temperance, and love, and turns belief into action when life gets costly.
This conversation is practical and unvarnished. We talk about building relational equity, apologizing to your kids, showing affectionate presence, and training boys and girls to do hard things. We push back on false binaries—oil-field tough vs theater soft—and champion whole-life formation: strong body, sharp mind, soft heart. We explore why fathers must be visibly prayerful, how pastors are called to father congregations, and how Jesus models masculine leadership by teaching, confronting, and sending with compassion and conviction.
If you’ve felt stuck between trendy extremes or unsure how to lead with both strength and tenderness, this episode offers a clear path shaped by faith and sustained by courage. Listen, share with a friend who needs an honest word, and if it helps you, leave a review so others can find it. Then tell us: where do you need more courage this week?
Well, welcome to Navigate Podcast, everybody. My name is Justin. I'm uh pumped to get back after it with my brother Michael. We did a podcast the other day on what did we call it? The Judeo-Christian problem? Fallacy. Judeo-Christian fallacy, Judeo-Christian heresy, whatever it is. I got some uh positive and negative feedback on that one. I actually had um uh a couple people from my previous church reach out and were like, man, I was so blessed hearing that because I've been really struggling this massive thing that's like going on, and I'm just trying I'm just confused about some of the rhetoric and some of the things being said, and they said the podcast is like a glass of cold water. Uh so thanks for coming on last time and getting after it, man. I I wanted to jump on and talk today a little bit about like masculinity, and I'm afraid to do it because I feel like it's it's a little bit of a trendy, um, it's a little bit of a trendy thing for people to talk about right now. And I feel like it's, you know, you have like the Andrew Huberman kind of stuff, and you have like the Joe Rogan and the the you know the Russell, Russell Brandt, and like all these people who want to talk about being a man. And I think it's good because I I do think that masculinity in general is under some serious uh attack right now, or you could say under a massive amount of scrutiny, or there's variations of it, some healthy, some not healthy. I actually think this might be closer to um you know, closer to the world that you know maybe Christ lived in. You know what I mean? You had Romans and you had Greeks and you had uh all kinds of weirdos in that day and age as well. Like maybe maybe we're closer to like uh a Corinth, you know what I mean, in our world today when it comes to identity and all the different things going on. But I I thought it'd be fun to dig into the topic a little bit with you. You do um uh you've done like jujitsu, you've done like uh uh you do uh muay, like kickboxing right now, you shoot guns, you uh you're jacked, uh, for those of you that that can't see. What do you got? Like 17-inch bison? No, not even no, you're funny. I got 18s, I think. So you gotta be close. You got bigger arms than me for sure. Yeah, he's all he's all inked up and everything, but you came from um you so you you've how how long have you known Christ for now?
SPEAKER_00:So uh since January 2013 is is when I put my faith in Christ. I I don't have the exact day. I know some people are really you're not even saved that. No, I may not be now down to the minute, we don't you know we don't exist. Yeah, so uh about a year after I got out of the army, I kind of hit a super low spot. So okay, while I was in the army and growing up, like I had idols everywhere, yeah. And that's probably a product of just being a kid and just kind of rougher upbringing, and then uh everything I thought gave me value in life, God I think took away from me to see what really matters, and that's him. So um, you know, I God's not gonna share his glory with anybody, nor should he. And everything that I was using to rob him of his glory, he took from me. Yeah, and so hate that. No, I you know, you look back and you're like, man, I could still be there. What a wreck I'd be, you know. Yeah, so yeah, God's definitely, you know, he's good.
SPEAKER_01:So God gave you the Morpheus, you know, yeah, which pills which way you will go in stay.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. And he used he used my my grandparents who who were passed away at the time. But no, no, actually, my grandpa was alive still, but um, their example, young in life, they modeled uh what it is to live a sacrificial Christ-like life. And then my uncle, uh more so when I was older, but he always been a good uncle. All the kids gravitated to him, but more so um in my adult life and especially in those struggles, marriage struggles, he really walked alongside me and always pointed me to Christ. And I think um it was our we had a conversation um that day, and I was just I hit a low spot, and I'm like, I don't know what I'm gonna do. Yeah, and he, you know, he said, uh go pray on your knees and don't get up till God speaks to you. Wow. And it was like, I don't know how long, it was a long time.
SPEAKER_01:You said this was your uncle?
SPEAKER_00:My uncle, yeah. We call him Jerry Boy, but that's not even his name. The best salt of their great guy, yeah, loves Christ.
SPEAKER_01:Get on your knees and don't get up and get it.
SPEAKER_00:That's what he said. Yeah, and um obviously not in an audible voice, but God spoke to me. I mean, if it was audible, that'd be cool too. Yeah, I man, I would take that, you know. But um uh, but you know, I I like a light bulb went off, and it was like, well, I'm on my knees, I'm I'm worried about all these things that really don't mean nothing. Yeah, and Christ has shown me you think you have nothing, but you have everything in me. And it was ever since then, I was like, I'm in. That's it. That's awesome.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so you came up kind of a kind of out of a uh a mixed family kind of background, right? Like to walk me through that a little bit because because we're talking about masculinity. I think it's I think your scenario and how you grew up might actually be um similar to a lot of people, like most guys I know now are coming out of broken families, yeah, blended families, no dads, sometimes there's a dad, sometimes there's multiple moms. Like walk me through a little bit about your background.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so um when I was young, my parents got uh they were divorced. Um, and shortly after that, uh my mom took us to Montana. My dad was in Iowa. Um, and so we were just living with her. Um, just she was very nurturing, kind, very loving, yeah, but just a wreck, like every other aspect of her life was a wreck, right? Um and so yeah, and just unstable. Um, well, we ended up just circumstances ended up living um with my dad. Um and in its own way it had dysfunction as well, right? Not and this isn't um I'm not throwing stones at anybody. Sure. We we all are learning at a parent. Like no one is taught to really be a parent anymore, right? No. Um, and so um on the flip side, my um I moved with my dad and my stepmom, and um, you know, I as a as a Christian, I can kind of take a step back, and I don't know, we just have this ability to take a step back, uh, cast all bitterness aside and just look at the situation. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and so um when my my step um my mom, I call her my mom. So um when my mom, other mom, right, but my and my dad got married, yeah. Um she had my sister Alicia, and so it was my dad, Alicia, my mom, and then they had my brother Marshall. And so looking back, I'm like, man, that must have been rough. Because she had this idea, this is what my our life is gonna be. And you create dreams and you well, God has other plans, you know, and so we got thrown into the mix, and I and I can only empathize with there's probably a level of resentment there, right? But um, but she was and and we felt it as kids, you know, and like she's amazing now, like yeah, amazing, like love them, like they're my I love my parents, yeah. And I'm I'm so grateful that now we're able to live here close to them, but there was a degree of I think resentment she probably had towards us, yeah. And we obviously resented her as well back, right? You're not my mom, which is gotta be a nightmare, right? Yeah, it's gotta be brutal. I'm I'm you know, I'm going in debt to support you guys and like fighting. My mom my biological mom was at utter wreck. Yeah, and so like she she took my dad to court over a dollar, like a dollar less child support, like ridiculous stuff, right? So I totally get it, and so but still very stable, a lot going for her. She was a biomedical engineer, like she was a stud, but not like you know, yeah, and so uh but but really well put together. Um but as far as the loving, nurturing, that wasn't present. And you know, like you know, just life happens. Yep, and my dad seemed to kind of take a backseat role in the family to her, right? Like, hey, I just want to keep the peace. My dad is a very much so a keep the peace guy. Yeah, I don't I don't want kind of a kind of a peacekeeper, less of a no like my dad is one of the most unconfrontational people I've ever met. Okay, so it can be good in a lot of ways and not always good.
SPEAKER_01:It's so funny knowing you because yeah, you're basically like a you're about as subtle as a glock.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I I'm not uh I'm I'm definitely like let's just go, you know, but which which now is like I have this internal struggle, yeah. Because my flesh is like, let's go, you know. But but the you know, Holy Spirit's like, hey bud, you know, pulls back the reins. Yeah. So so in telling that story, I'm I'm the it's not like I I'm as much at fault of having fallen in the spectrum struggling, yeah, which we'd kind of talked about earlier. There's this, I think a spectrum for personalities. And and so, yeah, and so that was kind of it's kind of your upbringing and what you've come out of a little bit.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Tell me a little bit about like so how did when you think about um masculinity today, like how did you how did the Bible frame that for you? Because I think most guys are uh like that I know. So I worked in kitchens for a long time. And what I found out right away in kitchens is that uh most people that worked in kitchens were like alcoholics and um, you know, some kind of addiction. A lot of them are felons. The best artists I know are all felons. You know what I mean? Like they're just the most creative, like can get it done, make it happen. People almost always had a ton of other dysfunction in their life, and they learned to be fast and accurate and do things quickly because of procrastination, whatever. You know, it was like their their dysfunction made them super good in other areas. But I found out quickly that most of them didn't have f uh, didn't have fathers or had bad fathers. And like when I got saved, I feel like I started fathering everybody. And it actually, I was like, um, it became more like a family. Like I would start taking people into the office, and I'm gonna talk with you for an hour once a week about how are your finances, you know, how's your how's the relationship you got with your family right now? How you know what I mean? And just trying to like pour into these people a little bit. And um, I've just like our culture is kind of in that place now where the sexual revolution has um thrown families, fathers, marriages kind of into uh, you know, this strange uh place where nobody really has a solid identity more, and it becomes more and more prevalent for blended families and and difficulties at home or no dads or you know, abusive moms or whatever. But like when you when you got saved, like how did how did masculinity hit you? Like, how did you start growing into that? Um, because you you're married now, you got two kiddos. Yeah, I was like, wait, do you have three? No, just two, just two. Me and Lauren have two. I need to convince you to have another.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no. Um, yeah, you don't need Lauren's got me. Um, so yeah, dang. So so that that's been tough, and I'm still like working it out, right? Like, I think it's an ongoing process because we can't know the Bible perfectly, and so we're working on it. Um, so like the most manly man growing up that I that I had in my life was my grandpa. He's my hero. Yeah, he was awesome, cowboy farmer, you know, like he was in the army and like wild guy, but became a Christian, like, but he was independent, fundamental Christian, and so and my dad on the other end was uh a little passive, yeah, a man still, right? Like he wasn't my dad's not effeminate, my dad is a man, um, but real passive, not confrontational, right? So those are the two kind of spectrums I think were modeled growing up, right? Um, and then I joined the army at like 17, 18, and then um, you know, that gave me another perspective of what a man is, right? And so um then, you know, getting out of the army a year later, becoming a Christian, and then studying, not studying a little bit, right? Yeah on my Bible. I didn't really I got challenged at a church because these guys were like they knew their Bibles, yeah, didn't exercise grace much, but they knew their Bibles, right? This big independent fundamental church, but but and it challenged me, like I don't want to feel stupid anymore, right? I want to know my Bible, I'm hungry to know God better. And so um uh that helped, right? And you know, just reading like okay, Jesus' example. We're supposed to live this example of who Christ was, and you're like, He wasn't a weenie, like no Christ was a like a strong guy, right? He was a beast. So um and then you know, I went to school for um psychology, uh, got my master's, and you really learn society's uh how they view masculinity. Yeah, yeah, and so it really was a process of um scripture's the litmus test for truth, right? If somebody tells you something, if you can't draw an accurate principle or it doesn't say explicitly, okay, I I don't want to hear it, right? Because scriptures it, it's the only written work in this world that I know is 100% true. Yeah, it's our final authority. It is absolutely, yeah. And so it really was studying that and just looking introspectively and then studying the text to be like, okay, what is this telling me? Okay, so loving my wife like Christ loved the church, okay, like you're not a big to go there right away. Well, I mean, but these are exam this is those are those that's a convicting passage. Yeah, right? Like, or you know, when you look at okay, uh love your neighbor as yourself, right? You see, or you see the example of Jesus washing his apostles' feet, right? And you you sit and you see that and was like, So masculinity, servant leadership, you know, all these things, and you're like, Wow, I need to fix things. I heard a I heard a pastor that I like.
SPEAKER_01:He he says, I like to use the term servant lordship. He says, because certain servant leadership everybody uses, and it's kind of this way of saying you have to be the most um uh the one who serves the most. And he said, but you also have to be the one that makes decisions. And he says, and that's the difficult part, is most people are happy to serve. Most people don't want the pressure of having to make difficult decisions, though. And it's that combination of those two things, I think, biblically. Yeah. Jesus served, but that dude made decisions. Yeah. You know what I mean? He was also making the calls in the middle of difficulty, in the middle of confrontation. And I find that there's it almost seems to be there's two sides of that spectrum. Like some guys are the I'll make the calls, I'll get after it, but they don't serve well, they don't love well, they don't care for people. Then you have the other side of the spectrum, which is I'll serve, I'll be super nice, I'm the best greeter ever, but don't ask me to make a decision about anything. No, for sure. I mean, like you need you need both of those things, like, and I so I kind of like that term servant lordship. Yeah, I also like that it's a little bit of edge lordy, and it'll probably piss off some normies, and I'm okay with that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so so being in the army, like leadership, like I think that I had some good leaders who like where you really see that come together, yeah. And so, yeah, I mean I don't have a problem with leadership, but no, but no, I think I think that's good, I think that's fair. I think um, yeah, and so sorry, um you're good, and so to get on you know, analyzing people, like I'm a people watcher, I don't know what it is, yeah, but I watch people, and so whether they realized it or not, they were modeling for me. And so within the church, I've seen really strong women, you know, usurp their husband's authority in dominating them, right? And you know that guy, just in how um like somebody asks them a question and the wife's the first one who chimes in, which can be okay, but in the manner that they do that, you're like, holy smokes, right?
SPEAKER_01:I gotta note on that. Almost every guy I know that's had a kind of a dominating wife like that either struggles with substance abuse or struggles with pornography. Interesting. There's some kind of like um, if it, if it doesn't, if he's not taking the spot that he's supposed to in healthy ways, it usually comes out in unhealthy ways. And I gotta like go down the wormhole on the dynamics of that, but it's it's worth it's worth noting. And I would say, um man, that it's it's uh there is a legitimately healthy way to do relationships and marriage and do those things, and there's a legitimately unhealthy way to do it. Yeah, and if you pick the unhealthy way, it produces more unhealth. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, and man, uh sometimes you see marriages, and I hate to say it, but like it's the caricature, and you're like, Oh, I I already know this couple. I've met 12 of you guys, and it's gonna be rough, and we got a long way. Yeah, that's a thing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, the the crazy thing, which I don't think they realize, and I would hope if the wife understood this, she would take more care and more concern for her husband eternally, right? Yeah, is that you may usurp your husband's authority, he is still gonna be held accountable for every decision made in his home. Yeah, we don't have the right as created beings to usurp uh because we're essentially usurping God's authority because God said, No, man, you will be the head. Yeah and the wife's like, nah, I'm good. I got this. And so you're essentially usurping not only your husband's authority, but God's who gave him that. And you, the husband will be judged for that. Yeah. And well, so will you, but your husband, any decision he makes or fails to make, or that he makes and it's a bad decision, you're gonna be judged for it. And that's a responsibility we have to have.
SPEAKER_01:There's a ton of pressure there. Yeah, there's a ton of pressure, and there's the conversation about you know, uh, submission and headship there, and like, look, I'm I'm all for it. Women should submit to their husbands, men should love their wives as Christ loved the church, and I don't think we should have to doll that up in a particular way. Sure. Um, but ultimately it it's the picture of Christ and his church, right? So if the church is feminine in that it's submitting to Christ, right? And the uh obviously the Lord is masculine in that we're submitting to him and allowing him to lead. And it would be a weird thing, and we would call it sin when we twist that with the church and with the Lord. But oftentimes in marriages, we're okay with punting on those things or changing them or acting like there's you know, it's not a big deal. I I agree with you. I I think um people should pay attention to that and realize that look, uh dad, husband, you're gonna be responsible. Yeah, this is your ship. Now, what happens on your ship may have been somebody else's fault, but you're responsible for what's going on here. You gotta you gotta do something about it. You gotta you gotta take the lead. Oh, yeah. And uh what I mean for you, what what does that look like for you? So let's say let's get into um a little bit of the the dynamics of marriage. Uh you obviously masculinity isn't just you know with regard to marriage, but uh I'm curious for you, what does it look like the whole headship submission thing in your own home?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so we had some kids bringing up around the camp for when I give my advice, I fail daily in my marriage. I fail daily, and I have such a good wife, she's so loving and kind and forgives me. Shout out to Lauren. Yeah, Lauren's the best my wife will ever. Um, she'd be like, Lauren, not love, you know, um, one more thing, and I'll I'll get into that. Uh, I just there's a spectrum, right? Yeah, and so the spectrum is you allowing your wife, not that spectrum, no, letting your wife usurp your authority versus I I've known men who um will pull the I'm the head of the household card. I've literally heard guys use it when it comes to movies. I've been at a friend's house and they couldn't agree, and it seemed fun and playful. And he's like, basically, well, I'm the head of the house, I'm choosing. I'm just doing what I want. And it was like awkward. I kind of sat there and was like, Yeah, I'm gonna probably leave soon, right? Like it was weird. Very uncomfortable. So there is that spectrum. And so I think Yeah, the spectrum, you're funny.
SPEAKER_01:No, it's funny because I'm like, you you are you got to be an idiot. Like, because you have you have so much money in your relational account, and that's where you want to cash the check. Yeah. That's that's what you're gonna spend that relational equity on, is the movie that you want to watch.
SPEAKER_00:And you're doing this in front of your children. So yeah, I think we failed to realize who's watching us. Yeah. And in our relationships, I I personally believe as a Christian, every interaction you have could have an eternal consequence. Yeah. Right. Whether it's like good or bad, like your testimony, how you live out your faith, yeah, could really um be the difference from you having a soundboard with somebody, be able to share even the gospel, right?
SPEAKER_01:That's the it's the maximus desmus meridius, right? What we do in life echoes in eternity.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I I uh yeah, I don't remember that. Good job.
SPEAKER_01:You're amazing movie, one of the greatest movies of all time. That's fine. I'll forgive you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but to your thing, I was asked, uh we were we we we tend to spend a little more time at your house than what, you know, when you look at bedtimes and stuff. You got a fellowship. Yeah, you got it. It's it's it's the best. So um, yes, I my wife had reminded me that I told you we need to leave, you know, uh a few minutes ago, uh get the kids to bed for school. And I was told or asked, Well, aren't you the head of your house? Meaning I should have told my wife, yeah, just go be quiet and go in your place. I'll tell you when we leave. Yeah, and and so I think I I so unfortunately, there are probably a lot of men who might tell their wife, hey, go to your place, or they would just blow her off. Yeah. Um but if I'm loving Christ or loving my wife like Christ loved the church, right? What would the response be, acknowledge a, my wife is my helpmate, right? So we know if you you should know that in the um when God says I'm gonna make you a helpmate, he uses this word easer. Okay. Now, easer, if you look at it in its context throughout the Old Testament, right? It's never a position of submission. Now, I I I understand that you're as the head, your wife submits to you, right? But I think primarily she's your helpmate. And so if she is going to, if she is being a good helpmate, she'll understand that God has given you headship and she will um know her, you know, know her, I don't want to say role accordingly.
SPEAKER_01:I think I think role's okay. I I think nature is even better. Sure. Um and I think what you're saying is it's not that it's a role of submission as a uh a subordinate identity or something. Right. She's not a dormant, it's a unique, um, it's a unique calling that God has placed. Because like easier is used of the Holy Spirit. Exactly. So I wouldn't be like the Holy Spirit is is definitely less valuable or lesser than you know the individual that the Holy Spirit is helping. Well, no, that's absurd. Yeah. But I also know that the the Holy Spirit is coming alongside of us and and helping us accomplish the things that we're supposed to. Yeah. And that's a that's a glorious thing. That's not something that you should, you know, scoff at or be like, well, well, you know, you're helping me, I'm not helping you.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Yeah. The word actually means a helper in time of trouble, right? And we know when we're doing things, like men are in trouble a lot. Yeah. So we need our wives. You know, it's society has trained men to think your wife is um just uh either a luxury or like um just an addition to your life, you know, if it fits, but no, no, men's lives biblically are so much better with like women, like we look at them like you got Jerry McGuire, it's cheesy rules, but our wives really do complete us. Yeah, right? When we are married, it's not good for a man to be alone, right? When yeah, when we are joined, we are one flesh.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. And it's this is important um the other way too, because I I would even I would I would want to make sure I say this too. Uh, women also need men. Yeah, you are also not put together the way that you're supposed to, yeah, until you actually find a man. Look, I know there's singles out there that are that are working on that and figuring that stuff out. I know you got to rely on God, but I'd like to point out that in the garden, all right, Adam is with God, walking in the garden in the cool of the day, no sin, no broken, you know what I mean? It's perfect, and God's like, it's not good, right? That should terrify us, like that should make us realize. Oh, yeah, I I really am not good by my like we could be living in perfection, sure. And if you don't have a wife, there's actually something still not quite right.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. It's not really, it's good. Yeah, it's not really good, like it's not the best God has for us to be alone. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So I want to go back to this topic real quick of cashing checks, because I think this is what I what I brought up a second ago. Like somebody saying, I'm the head of the house, so we're gonna watch this movie. All right, like um, and this is just this is just going into the I think um a difference or maybe a word that I would want people to think about is is influence in your own household over authority. Like if you have influence in your home, um, you'll be given authority. Yeah, but if you are just trying to lean on authority, you know what I mean, without actually influencing your own home, you the that authority that you have is on is on borrowed time. Yeah, like you're not gonna have it for long. If you are not uh I I would say this on an ongoing basis dating your wife, like take her out, spend some time with her. If you're not pouring into her heart, if you're not if when you get home, you go right into all the other random conversations. Like, like I when I when I pull up to the house, man, I'm still praying every day, God give me strength to listen to my wife's heart, give me strength to pour into my kids because I'm exhausted and I don't want to do anything right now. You know what I mean? Like you have to pour into your family, you have to make investments into those relationships so that you actually have the ability to cash those checks later on when you need them. If you have to make a decision for the family, that's gonna be tough, but you've been spending all your relational money on um on stupid stuff around the house, like the like the you know, the movies you're watching or the food you want that night, and you actually hit something difficult that nobody's listening because you already burned up all your relational equity with those people. I think a big part of leading your home and and masculinity is taking responsibility for what you actually have, like taking care of it, pouring into it, stewarding it. Yeah, exactly. And it like Adam is put into the garden to name the place, to cultivate the ground, to work it. And I think sometimes men uh think that my wife's job is to take care of uh everything at home, and when I get home, it'll all be perfect. It's like no, no, no, she's your helper in that. Yeah, but ultimately this is yours. Yeah, like you're supposed to cultivate her while she's helping cultivate this. She's part of the thing that you're pouring into and growing. And if you are starving, you know what I mean, the the the partners that you have in something and expecting them to just get it all done. I'm telling you, you're your own borrowed time and it's gonna go south.
SPEAKER_00:Or like the guy who's like, this is my goal and ambition in life. Yeah, you're just coming along to support me in that. Yeah, you know, now if that's what her ideal of like, hey, I want to be the wife who does that, you know, awesome. Sure. But like in our home, like I want my wife, obviously, I want her to uh love being a mom and a wife, yeah, and all that stuff is great, but she's entitled to like that's not all I think Christ has called her to, right? Sure. I think you know, she's a teacher, she loves it. I mean, she has like ambitions. She's gonna be too as well. Yeah, yeah. Like she can have other passions and ambitions, right? But her calling and purpose is like mine is a husband first, yeah, nothing or as a Christian, right?
SPEAKER_01:There's a primary responsibility.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, there is, yeah. And it's okay, but unfortunately, you'll have uh guys who are like, no, no, you walk alongside me, I come home from work, I want dinner on the table. I want this, and it's like, bro, but what are you doing? They'll take that helpmate thing as like, no, you're here for me. And really, the biblical example, I think it's a language, right? If you don't get into it, the biblical example is we are here for each other, yeah, you know, and you don't see that. Now there are roles, right? Like my wife's job as a helper, right? Like, if I'm not considering what she's saying when it comes to decisions, now it's not stupid decisions like what should we have for dinner? Well, I'll the head, you know, like that's that's retarded. So, but it's one of those things like I'm making a decision, you know. Um, let's say church or hey, you know, debt, whatever the decision is, right? If you're not considering your wife, you are not, you are not, I guess, using like you're at the very least not being wise. Yeah, and you're not stewarding this gift that God gave you because he gave you her as a helper. Right. And so I think and then if your wife, if she's a, you know, I'm I'm a woman, hear me roar, and you're not um, she's not utilizing you as her protector, her provider, and that doesn't mean breadwinner necessarily is because like I mean, just the economy's crazy, right? You have some people it's an interesting time we live in, right? Yeah, but you can still provide, you know, to the family, right? Um but um so you know, you if you're not living out God's role for a husband, sure, you know, in yeah, it it I mean it it matters, it really matters.
SPEAKER_01:And I I wanted to dig, man, we could talk about just the marriage piece for a long time and and and and sit in that and talk about all the all the nuance and um some of the difficulties today with I think uh um some of what women are being fed on an ongoing basis, some of what's coming out of pulpits on an ongoing basis is really messy. Uh the uh women in pulpits in general and the mix-up in the church and some of the things going on there hugely problematic. Get into that maybe a little bit later, but I want to talk about um uh a text. We got uh 1 Corinthians 16. All right, is it I think it's verse 13? 16. Where it's he basically Paul tells these guys, yeah, act like men, act like men, act like men. We were talking briefly about the the word there is uh it's used to denote um like a like an amphitheater. It was like uh it was a word used for men who are who are literally supposed to act or put on the role of masculinity. Like literally, I want you to wear this. Like I need you to I need you to act this out in your life. Um tell me a little bit about why that matters, like what are your thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so so the word that we see there is a Dizomai. It's only used there, unless you like look at the Septuagint, it's used like 18 times, but in um in what we have, right? Um it's uh and interesting it is to act like a man, uh, but the way the the Greeks used it was a little different. So, yes, act like a man, but there was an implication there of bravery or courage, right? That was a key attribute for a man, right? And so I think that's interesting. And and for us as and so Paul's telling him be courageous, right? And and it's I think it's important. He puts it at the end of the letter, right? So um, you know, he's responding to what he had already been told. Um, but what's interesting, um, you can't live without I think God's call for you as a man or woman without it. So it's interesting, he's telling the church this, he's not telling just one person. So he's essentially telling them, you know, act courageous, be courageous. And and I think that's important for us as believers, right? Um, and now we're talking primarily this is uh masculinity, right? So for men, um, you know, our I think our foundation for everything we do has to be faith. Yeah, that's where we draw our courage from, right? And so right above that, if there was like a tier system, I would say faith is the foundation, and then we have courage. And it's from faith and courage that we live into who God has called us to live into, right? Yeah. Um, because you can be courageous, but if you don't have faith in nothing, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I think faith is what throws you into the fight, and courage is what sustains you in it. Sure. No, that's it. The second you place your faith in Jesus, yeah. Okay, my world is now upside down. Yeah, I'm picking fights with things that I never would have done.
SPEAKER_00:And there's something greater than this, yes, right? That's the fight.
SPEAKER_01:I I am now walking a different direction because I have purpose and I believe in what Christ has called me to do. The first thing that you're gonna need is a ton of courage. Sure. Right, which is why Jesus, you know, throughout scripture, you're always getting this don't be afraid, you know, take courage, have heart. You know, everybody loves the what is it, Joshua 1.9, right? Like the just the take heart, be courageous. Like, why do you need that? Because if you have faith, it's gonna put you into some difficult positions. Yeah, it's way easier to not be a Christian and not have faith. But if you actually are a man of conviction, sure, courage is net. I'm trying to think who the philosopher was. He actually said that um courage is the prerequisite to every other virtue because to be just, you're gonna need courage for it. To be temperate, you're gonna need courage, to to to be prudent, you're gonna need courage, faith, hope, love. You're gonna need you're gonna need courage for all of those because it's not actually a virtue you're exercising unless there was some emphasis or difficulty that went into exercising that particular virtue, right?
SPEAKER_00:Right, yeah. And I think that's great because um as we look at that, you know, uh you have other, you know, like Rome, right? They had all these gods, uh uh, you know, they're polytheistic. Um, but I think it not being a true God, they it sure it bolsters their courage to an extent. Yeah, but when it really uh comes down to it, that faith crumbles. Yeah, right. Where for us, us, faith in Christ, like he'll like you always, right? Like Christ has never failed us once, right? And so when things get hard, yeah, they get hard, but he somehow gives us the grace, right? Like our faith is always assured in hardships, right? And so we're able to do those um difficult things, like um extending forgiveness to somebody who doesn't deserve it, right? Um acting in grace, but then also um, you know, when justice has to be, you know, done done. Yeah, you know, that's it's it's one of those things, like all these attributes, like the backbone of them is faith and courage. Yeah, I think you can't you can't get there. The fruits of the spirit, like it takes courage, right, and commitment for us to do that, and then the Holy Spirit works, right? Yeah, and when you look at Jesus' example, just kind of on that, us stepping out and and being courageous, right, and following in obedience is an act of faith. And you don't see Jesus. I have yet to find an example where Jesus did a miracle that wasn't preceded by faith. Yeah, like none, the blind men follow him. Even the um, I was reading in Luke yesterday, um when the centurion sent his servants out, right? And he told them, Don't come back, I'm not or don't come to my house, I'm not worthy. Yeah, and he heals them from afar, right? Heals his uh servant, yeah. And it's like his faith, he said, yeah, right. And he said, I have in and not even in Israel have I seen such great faith, right? Yeah, and so I think I think for us, right, masculinity um to have to fall in either of those spectrums of passivity or um domination, domination, right? You are not walking in faith, you're not walking in courage, you're not walking in obedience. I think you are picking a side, right? And you're you're neglecting those two. I think we as believers have to fit somewhere in the middle, yeah, right. And sometimes circumstantially, we might lean a little further one way or another. Sure. But I think the middle, right? Everything has to be tempered. Yeah, you know? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And and I wouldn't say I I'd be careful too, because I wouldn't want to say pacified. Like what I've found is anytime you're acting as a man, um making hard decisions, um doing what you're supposed to be doing, advancing the kingdom in different ways. There's always gonna be people that are trying to get you to slow down and take it easy and like back off. Yeah, and then if you're on the other side of the spectrum, there's always gonna be people, why are you not more you know what I mean? Like, no matter what you do, there's gonna be somebody who thinks you're not quite to their taste, right? You know, and and really you have to be living your life before God. No, what is God calling me to do? What is the action we're called to here? And I think what's hard, like being down in East Texas now, man, like just what I'm picking up, so many churches and pastors and places that I'm talking to. It's like, what are we doing to advance the Great Commission? Are we seeking the face of the Lord? Are you guys going out and sharing the gospel with people? Are we talking like, and it almost seems like there's um, I don't know if there's a loss of mission or a loss of a loss of heart, a loss of courage, but it's uh we need some of that masculine like drive back a little bit. Some of the I mean, I when I look at history, I see even non-believers with a clear vision and mission for what they were doing were able to accomplish far more and even lay their lives down to do it. Yeah, and sometimes I I look at Christians today and I'm like, man, maybe you're a good Christian who's very you know, good Christian, you know, whatever. Are we ever really good Christian today? Yeah, right, right. But I I think there's a there's some mistakes being made, like just being nice and just being kind to everybody is not the same as being a good Christian. Yeah. Right? Like just being being passive or or making sure that you're there to help set up tables is not the same as being a good godly man.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And and sometimes I think we could use more stories from Rome. Yeah, sometimes I feel like we could use more stories of of heroic men who did brave things. And I sometimes um I I'll just be honest, I feel like since since World War II, maybe even in Vietnam, when all like the manly men went away to war and we started seeing more women in pulpits and different stuff, I think there's but there's been a shift in churches that's led more to feminine characteristics of Christianity are are more elevated uh in a in an irritating way than the masculine attributes. And we're teaching a lot of men in churches to just like tone it down and be safe, short up your bets, don't do anything too crazy. Uh, and that's actually what Jesus loves the most. And I just when I look at Christ, who's in what moment, you know, washing Judas's feet, and the next moment, you know, and I mean flipping over tables to you know what I mean, um every it seems like Jesus was in confrontation his entire life. Yeah. You know what I mean? Either crowds were following him and he's answering questions, or he's dealing with people who are trying to take him down with strategic questions, or he's literally like running for his life at certain points. Like he is in the middle of conflict and that line between light and darkness almost every single day. Yeah. And I just I think sometimes um we're addicted to what's safe and what's normal. Yeah, and I don't I I actually think that might be anti-masculine.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I so I I agree. I think we've created these um polar uh opposites of them, yeah. Rather than like, so we we we live in like a society where it's like one or the other, right? You you can't have like when you look at like let's say uh I don't want to get into this, but I will kind of like the idea of something non-binary. So something sorry, no, you're good, but like let's say the idea. Of um human agency and election, right? Sure. Rather than viewing them as two biblical truths and they come together somewhere. We may not know where, there's mystery, but they're not, they're not in opposition. They're actually complementary. We're working together. Yeah. And so we do the same with masculinity and femininity, right? And so you have this spectrum out here. I've been out here a little longer, not that that makes me an expert. But just in my time, what I've observed is you'll have these men, oil field men, construction men. Yeah. And if you so I like I know family, and um the dad is one of these tough machismo men, the son likes theater and likes music and stuff like that. And they automatically put him, oh, like, oh, you've got a problem. You you oh you you got feminine qualities, you know, oh, you might struggle with homosexuality, da-da-da. And you're like, as a Christian, you're labeling this guy. That's the true meaning of um what do they call it? Oh my gosh. Where uh oh, anyways, you know, anyways, okay, my career. Continue. Yeah, so um so what happens is they start treating this guy accordingly. Yeah. So, but then you have um those two, like those are like good examples of the opposites they have here. When you can be, if you look at David, you can like theater, you know. Obviously, he liked music, played the harp, which in our society be like, man, that's pretty gay.
SPEAKER_01:This dude's a harsh, right?
SPEAKER_00:You know, but dude, David was a man, and rather than he'd kill bears, you know what I mean? So you can't get mad at him for the harp. And so, so we look at how God wired him, like God's given us our proclivities, our interests, right? Yeah, and so we peel back sin, we all struggle with sin nature, like, no, he's not any, it doesn't mean necessarily he's not masculine, right? Yeah, we've created uh a man-made definition of masculinity, and I hate that those are such like ket coined phrases, you know, with all the LGBTQ, oh, if you're feminine, you might, you know, like it's it's it's the stupidest thing, right? Yeah, and the the church has bought into it. I I agree so like I agree with this.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, let me let me push back a little bit. I agree because I think men should be artists. I think men can like if you have uh some kind of aversion to cooking a meal, yeah, because you think that's only what women are supposed to do. As somebody who is uh did did like executive chef work for years and years, it's it's actually a field that's dominated by men. Um, like there's there's all kinds of things that you should be able to be interested in as a man, like from poetry to you know, all kinds of you know, painting, whatever. Bob Ross, your hero, that's great. I love the guy, you know, I I enjoy painting from time to time. I do think, however, if your love for artwork and the harp is also keeping you from taking responsibility or uh knowing that it's my job to protect my family, yeah, that's a problem. Right. Because like you you still should, if you are a man, you should be doing something to keep your body strong, sure, your mind sharp, and your heart soft. Right. And I think sometimes we will compromise one over the other. So you're talking about the the machismo, bravado masculinity, the oil field guy, right? Strong body, sharp mind, maybe a hard heart. Yeah. You know what I mean? And then you got the other guy over here, sharp mind, soft heart, maybe weak body. Right. You know what it's like. We need we actually need all of those things to do the um, what's Doug Wilson's phrase? The glad assumption of sacrificial responsibility. Like, how am I doing the provision, protection, uh, and that means spiritually, right? Not just physically, for our families, for people. And and even if you don't have those things, you should be practicing those things now so that you're ready for it later. So I I wouldn't say uh don't play the harp, don't play the piano. I'm like, dude, do that, write poetry, do whatever you want to do, grow your business, work hard at that, work the land, uh, or you know, whatever other your stuff is. But we have to, we at least should be growing in our ability to take weight on our shoulders, protect our family, provide for our family.
SPEAKER_00:Right. So the example I gave was a father and son, right? Yeah, yeah. Unfortunately, that father is neglecting his role, and he he should be taught teaching his son, you can be a man and do this. Yes. But instead, they basically exposure therapy category. Yep, and they expose your therapy the crap out of their kid. Let's go shooting, let's go this. And you're like, So then again, you're playing into the the world's logic is of femininity is homosexual, gay, trans, whatever. Yeah, yeah. Where you should be saying, bro, good. How do we how do we focus this and how do I how can you use these proclivities God has given you and provide and become a man, you know? Yeah, and the thing is I I think we have fathers, especially in this area, who are in the home but absentee. Yeah, they're working either work in oil fields, um, and this kind of back to my example, right? Growing up, my dad was in the home, but really when he he would come back from work and then we would be they would be doing chores or remodeling the home. Like I lived in a home with both parents, they worked like crazy. Yeah, I mean, they but when they came home, it was almost absentee. Yeah, because there was no real interaction. If we wanted to do chores together, we had that, but um, there wasn't a whole lot of investing in their kids. And I think that's a a big thing society's missing. I saw a I saw a stat the other day that kind of blew my mind.
SPEAKER_01:One of the number one um uh attributing things for uh men growing up to be homosexual was lack of physical attention from their fathers.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I thought that was fascinating. Well, they don't know how to do it in a healthy way, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, like like you you you should be, you know, hanging out with your kiddos and loving on them and giving them hugs and goofing off and doing stuff, and when you're robbing them of that, you know what I mean, you're actually creating some really unhealthy desires that are gonna come out in some profane ways. Well, it's naturally craved, like I want a closeness, like yeah, you want affection from your father, that's a good thing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, I've I've I taught high school Bible for a while, and there were kids who seemed normal, and you know, like people, because a lot of them come from public school, and there's this idea that oh, you know, they were teased and called gay or whatever, and then you really get down and talk to them, and they just said, I just want closeness with another man. Intimacy is like it's not sexual, yeah. I just want to be close. Yeah, and it is unfortunate. You have dads who are distant. Yeah, man, I don't know what it was. I before I was saved, I hated people with a passion. Yeah, like I hated people, like yeah, and but yet something Especially Fred. No, no, Fred's the best, but you know, but what ends up happening is you hear these stories of like somebody saved and God delivered them from something. Yeah, and that was one thing. It was like um the Ezekiel, the uh the heart, you know, the stone, right? Like, and I I really felt like God gave me I respected women. I didn't respect women um before I was saying what example, yeah, you know, like to me, I had no good examples, right? I was I'm looking through the lens of a yeah, you know, um a non-Christian, and I something happened in my heart, and like uh then me and Lauren, she's pregnant. I'm praying for you know us to have or our baby, and like I'm falling in love with being a dad, man. Even now, like my boy, like you know, you're giving me a kiss and a hug, you know. Like, I want to love, I want to like sometimes I wrap my arms around my son. I'm like, I don't want to let go. Yeah, you know, and um and like same with Samara, like I don't want to let go. Yeah, and and I I it now I can't like how can you not want to hold them? And like what a gift, and you know, and I maybe a lot of it's like, did you pray for your kid? Like what way before you had them, did you pray for him? Jeremiah had some health issues before um or when he was first born, and yeah, we thought we might lose him. And I waited, I waited by um he was in uh Nick U, and I prayed all night. And it was like I prayed to God that he would heal him because I was like, God, you showed me my son, like praying for him before he was born. Like I saw I could close my eyes and see me playing catch with my son, holding my boy, and I'm like, God, please don't take it from me. Yeah, and God did a work, like I saw play by play, God do a miracle in my son. And it's like, if you aren't having that, if like like I mean, God revealed my son to me. And I now in retrospect, I don't know, did it look exactly like him? I don't know, but man, I saw my son. Yeah, and God was what a blessing it was.
SPEAKER_01:He was like, I'm a continuationist, we're good, man.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, but it was it was like one of those things, and like I fell back on that. Like, to me, that was a promise God made to me, you know? It gave you faith, yeah, and it gave you courage. Yeah, and it's like it are you not praying for your kids, those parents with hard hearts. Like, I'll be honest, if you won't hug your kid, I just tell you you're not a man. Yeah, hug your boy. Yep. It so going back to my experience in the army, I saw dads smoking their kids like they were soldiers. Yeah, no, no, kids don't need a killer, they need their dad. Yeah, and so if you can't like I I would kill for my kid. Like, if it became between him and a room full of people, I'm picking my kid. Guys, good luck, you know. Umorris, you're supposed to. I'm sorry, guys. You know, like yeah, you know, like take care of your own family, yeah. Yeah, you you may understand eternity, right?
SPEAKER_01:Like you're telling me you cherry care about your children more than random Somalis that you don't know? I don't understand. That are you robbing a government of five billion dollars, yeah. I don't understand.
SPEAKER_00:That are essentially taking money out of kids' mouths, yeah. Man, so you're the worst Christian.
SPEAKER_01:I know I'm sorry for the words.
SPEAKER_00:No, you're good. So you know what, but like if you're not doing those things, like yeah, you're not living into biblical manhood. I don't think you, I mean, we're told that if if you do not uh manage your household or take care of your household, you're less than an unbeliever. You know, that's telling you, like, like even I I I look at that and I'm like, in the same way Paul indicts um the church because you have a a guy messing around with a stepmom, yeah, and it's basically like, hey, this guy is not one of us, even the heathens, this is wrong. Even to the heathens, you not loving and tending to your family, right? Yeah. Like and this takes me to the other side of the spectrum too, though.
SPEAKER_01:So, like if you're the dad who loves and hugs your kids and is nurturing to them, but also isn't helping them get tough and solve problems and do hard things, you're failing that way too. Yeah, oh yeah. Like you you have to be able to teach your kid we can do hard things together. Getting I have to make uh Bennett go to jujitsu sometimes because this he's like, I'm sitting home, I want to watch a show. I'm like, get dude, get up. Like you gotta go. And I feel like my wife helps me with this sometimes, and I appreciate it because sometimes I'm like, I just I don't want to fight him on it today. And she's like, no, he needs to go. And I'm like, all right, go get your butt up. And I appreciate that from her, yeah, because she's right. Being a helpmate, right? Sure, yeah, yeah. I need to make sure that he gets used to discipline and doing difficult things and solving problems, or I'm gonna raise a kid that feels very loved but also very entitled and isn't ready to take on, you know, the struggle and the fights that he's gonna have. So I I totally agree. Like, hug your kids, love your kids, be affectionate with your children, take care of them, talk to them, get to know their hearts and learn who they actually are. Don't just try to make them you. Yeah, you know what I mean? Another version of you. Like you don't have it all figured out either. They're gonna be different, yeah. They're gonna have differences, like sometimes watching parents trying to live vicariously through their kids' sports is like the most disgusting thing ever. I mean, just like, dude, please stop. Like, he doesn't even want to play this sport.
SPEAKER_00:Well, those are the parents who skip church, right? Yeah, they're they're like, no, no, we're skipping church for this. The most important thing. Shoot, the kid would rather go learn about Jesus and hang out with his friends, you know.
SPEAKER_01:The goal is the the nuggets, not heaven. Yeah. So uh, but but I I do think it's important for parents to hear this. And I and I'm gonna throw this out there because I I think if you're let's say if you're uh maybe you're a wife and you're listening to this podcast, or maybe your husband and a wife listen to this podcast, it's really important that men uh are spending time also pushing their sons. And I've watched um women struggle with this a little bit. And I would say men are supposed to be a little bit harder on their boys. That's okay. He should equally be loving his son too. It shouldn't be what you do one and he does the other. Yeah, you're already, mom, gonna be a little bit naturally more nurturing, usually, and men are usually already gonna be naturally a little bit more uh maybe competitive or pushy. So we're complimentary. That's exactly that's not a problem, that's a perk. And sometimes we want to fight each other, you know what I mean? Like uh what you know, husband to his wife. Why are you always you know coddling him, blah de blah, or or the other side. Uh you you know, you're being so like there's there's got to be teamwork on it, but you need both of those things.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's her job to be a little more nurturing, right? Yeah, yeah. God, that's how God created her heart. Yeah, be be afraid of the mom who doesn't want to be a mom who doesn't want to nurture. Right. Then there's a serious problem, like, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Then you can look back to their family and usually dig something some wound or something. Yeah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00:And one thing I wanted to touch on, and you you brought in that they should be um, they should do hard stuff. I think all men should do hard stuff. We don't do hard stuff. Yeah, um, and I think what ends up happening is we so when we don't do hard stuff, we lack a certain compet confidence. And so when you lack that confidence, you lean more into the passivity side, right? Yeah, unconfrontational. You're not, and it's like, no, no, no. There are things worth fighting for. Yeah. And they're and it may not to you seem worth it. To me, it is. Yeah. And you know, that might be just the and obviously that has to be tempered a little bit. Yeah. But I think when you're not doing hard things, and even for a woman to a degree, doing hard things, which being a like stay-at-home mom is a tough job, right? Like, like women who stay at home, they I think they have the toughest job, right? Like, I man, they are champs, and I think shame on society for telling them the the dream is that you go and do a be a boss babe.
SPEAKER_01:Submitting to your husband and working at home, submit to your boss.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, exactly. And rebel against your husband. Yeah, yeah. So my daughter's super rebellious. My prayer for her is that she would rebel against the world and submit to Christ, right? So you where you where do you focus that rebellion? But I think you don't build courage, like they builds a confidence, yeah, right, to be courageous, like right, like your kids need to be confident in it and they need to see you being that person first, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I say it all the time. We teach what we know, but we reproduce the people we are, right? So if you're talking about all these stories in the Bible, dad, but your your kids don't see you walking it out. Yeah, I would add this in too. If your kids don't see you praying through really difficult circumstances in your life, they don't know you're in the fight. That's a problem too. They need to see at least some level, I'm not saying everything, but they need to see how you're going to war, how you're relying on God, what you are fighting, so that they understand what's actually happening. Or you you create kids that that are going to be totally blown away at what's going on in the world and won't know how to apply their faith to it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Kids, so like we talked earlier about they're not prepared for relationships. You're not hugging them. Yeah, they don't know how to. I mean, um, my wife went to a very let's say, fundamental um Christian college, university. Yeah. And um, we were just show ankles, they kick you out of me. Bro, we were just looking at like she follows a lot of the people she went to school with. You'd be surprised how many come out as homosexual. Yeah, and the crazy thing is my theory on it, just kind of people watching, yeah, they grew up in very fundamental homes. They weren't, you know, girls yucky, boys yucky. Yeah, yeah. They never learned how to never learned how to have a relationship. Even there, you get in trouble if you go out boying a girl. You're not allowed to go on dates there. Yeah, you get in trouble, right? And so what they did is bred these people who feel this innate desire for a deep relationship with the opposite sex, but for some reason it's yucky. Yeah, that must be my flesh. Yeah, and they end up only closeness they can have is with men. They're never taught how to um date like a Christian. How to rightly express that relationship, and you have so many come out as homosexuals, yeah. You know, and you're just like, bro, this is a problem.
SPEAKER_01:Because they got all this closet stuff going on, you know what I mean? And it you could bootstrap things for a while, but like there's a there's a good way to do things, there's a good way to do it.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, sin is just a perversion of a good thing, right? That's all it is, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You know, the teaching thing that has always cracked me up is like sex is gross, it's terrible, it's awful, don't you know, don't want that. If you want that, you're a terrible, you know, and then it's like you get married, they're like, it's great, go for it. And you think people aren't gonna have like uh like some kind of PTSD from high school, yeah. Well, it's all conditioning.
SPEAKER_00:Or they're little kids and they experiment, they're kissing other boys and stuff, and you just demolish them. Yeah, and you're like, what? But the thing is, you know, parents, they have they're in these spectrums and they don't sit down and talk with their kids like the machismo dad. Yeah, what I say goes, and then you have moms who who go too far in that spectrum. No, you do what I say, and that's final. It's like you're not teaching your kid, yeah. You're not teaching, you're called to teach and model, you know, and you're like, you're not doing it. It's my way or the highway. And kids will say, Well, why are we doing that? Yeah, don't talk back. And you're like, you have set your kid up for failure. Like so you talked about responsibility too. I don't think parents take enough responsibility while the kids are kids, and then when they're adults, like part of this is my problem. Yeah, and really, I think you may not be able to change it at that point, but as you walk along with other people, or man, I've if heaven forbid, like I failed as a dad, failed, and there are things that I can't take back. Yeah, just repent.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it doesn't mean and and repent to them too.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Apologize to your kids. I so we grew up in a generation where parents don't apologize. They do not, you know, and if they do, it's like you can't remember because it's so infrequent. Right. Like I want my kids to know, like because it goes back to the courage. You got to have the courage to be humble and apologize. That humility takes courage, it doesn't feel good. I feel like an idiot every time I have to apologize. A, because I have to, I did something wrong. Yep. And then it's like, dang, like, and I'm supposed to set the standard. Yeah, and so this is hard. Yeah, yeah. It's the tough having to apologize to your your wife and your kids. And we think, well, that's gonna show that I failed in some way. Yeah, dummy. Yeah, but it's also gonna show that teaching them how to fail well, yeah, right, and then it telling them, man, if you have to repent to your kids, pray with them. You know, let them hear you asking God for help.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so important. And I I think the uh obviously the personification of masculinity that we're supposed to follow is Jesus, right? Right, you know what I mean. And I I love it that um people are like, Well, Jesus didn't have a wife, Jesus has the you know, he's the bridegroom to the bride of Christ, he's kind of married to the whole church, so we see how he treats the church. We got it there, and then I love it that he's got you know 12-point kids that are following him around for his entire ministry. And what is he doing? He's pointing at stuff, he's teaching them, he's taking them into difficult environments, he's taking them aside and caring for them when they're struggling or hurting, he's teaching them how to pray. He's like Jesus was fathering all of these guys to teach them how to walk it out when he wasn't there anymore. Right, yeah. Like that this is the way, this is what we're supposed to be doing. And and I would say even pastors are supposed to be fathers. Like an elder is is the husband of one wife. He's got kids. He's he's raised families. And the qualification for being an elder is that you can run your household well, which means that the household on a large scale is supposed to look like the church. Yeah. You know, you're supposed to walk with people, supposed to teach them, you're supposed to father congregants, you're supposed to, you know, show that this is what it what it ultimately is supposed to look like. And I think obviously when we look at Jesus, we see the personification of masculinity. And obviously, none of us are gonna be uh Jesus at the end of the day, but I think when it says act like men, yeah, you should think, okay, how am I being Christ in this situation? Act like men. How am I be how how is my faith leading me to take steps of courage in this situation? And then ultimately, how am I inviting the people that I'm responsible for into this with me so that they're learning and growing and I'm stewarding them at the same time? Right. I think that's a encapsulates at some level.
SPEAKER_00:That's great. And you know, yeah, Jesus wasn't married, he didn't have kids, but he's of the same essence as the father as the father, right? Like I think he's got how to father, I think he's got it down, right? I think it's I think it's in there somewhere.
SPEAKER_01:Right, yeah. No, exactly. Awesome. Yeah. Well, hey man, dude, thanks for uh jumping on and getting after. I wanted to talk through this with you because I know um in my conversations with you in the past, I've always been surprised because you do all the manly things, you know what I mean? Yeah, like I said, you lift weights, you do martial arts, you do guns, you're you know, you do all this stuff. But every time I talk to you, you got a softness in your heart and a love for people and a desire for people to nurture and care for and walk with. And I I think uh see a lot of Jesus in that and it comes to me. That means a lot. So wanted to make sure I got you on and had this conversation. So thanks for jumping on and thank you. Yeah, I would like to close out our episode actually praying for some people who might be wrestling with this. Does that work out? Yeah, let's do it. Let's pray. God, I thank you for uh what you tell us in your word about masculinity. I thank you for what you tell us about marriage and about family and about church. And I pray for anybody who struggles in this area, whether it's uh apologizing to their kids and family, whether it's helping their children do hard things, Lord, whether it's just physical affection for kids that need it, I pray that you would give them uh faith and you would give them courage to uh actually walk out what you've called us to do in your word, Lord, uh by your spirit. We pray in Jesus' name. Amen. All right, everybody. Have a great week. Talk to you soon.
