The Screwtape Letters Part Two

“Respectable sins” are the ones that don’t get you kicked out of polite company. They’re the habits you can defend, laugh off, and even baptize with Christian language, while they quietly erode your joy, your witness, and your love for God.

We keep digging into C.S. Lewis’s The Screwtape Letters and follow the thread from pride to self-justification: why it’s easier to spot sin in someone else than to go to war with it in ourselves. We talk about guilt and shame as check-engine lights, the Puritan practice of vivification and mortification, and what repentance looks like when it’s more than a word you avoid because it feels “negative.”

From there we get painfully practical. When do sports, shows, video games, and “neutral” hobbies become idolatry because they reorder your schedule and reshape your soul? What does it mean to build a custom God you prefer rather than submitting to the God of Scripture? We also wrestle with patriotism, Christian nationalism, and the pull of moralism in the culture (including why Jordan Peterson can feel helpful while still leaving out what’s essential).

We close with humor as a heart test: dirty jokes, sarcasm, practical jokes, and flippancy can be joy or they can be cover for lust, cruelty, and contempt. If this conversation hits a nerve, share it with a friend, subscribe, and leave a review. What “acceptable sin” is most tempting for you to excuse right now?

Transcript

Welcome Back And Setup

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Hey everyone, it is my pleasure for the second time in as many weeks to welcome you guys to the King's Bahner Podcast. How are you doing today, Justin? I'm good, bro. What a what an astute.

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Good morning, fellow Christians. Good morning. It is with great pleasure this this morrow that I what I don't even know what they mean. It sounded very posh and um respectable. Oh. Neither of I don't think I don't think we're either of those things. You don't, you know, we're gonna get as close to the floor.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

I don't think we're posh. I think there's some respectability to what we do. Oh man. If only because Fred's in the room.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

We're just trying to catch some of the light coming off your sails, Fred. Exactly. For those of you who can't see him, he's dressed as a penguin today. So and by that you mean in a full suit and tie. Um He's not dressed as a penguin, sorry. All right, Fred. We love you. We do. Now, Casey, what are we talking about today?

SPEAKER_01 1:03

So we last time began a subject that took a little longer than I think we both anticipated, which is digging into the screw tape letters. This book right here. It's upside down.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

They'll never know if you don't turn it. There you go. This book right here.

Pride And Respectable Sins

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Now the screw tape letters. Um and I think uh we kind of went a little free form, not realizing that we had a lot of meat to talk about. So um wanted to dig into it more because I have a lot more notes and there's a lot more to the book. And so let's go round two screw tape letters. Okay, okay. So are we is there a particular aspect that you want to talk about today? Uh a little bit. So again, last week we kind of talked about you know, the way the enemy works with relationships, and then we covered some random other stuff. So I've got a couple of topics here to kind of kind of you know be the skeleton that we bridge off from, but I wanted to start with um this idea, uh we don't say it like this in the world. Sure. Um, but you would boil it down to the topic of acceptable sins.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Uh yes. Okay. Respectable sins, even. Exactly. Um I think there's a book called that actually. Oh trying to think who wrote that. Somebody's got a good book about this. But yeah, there's a there's a whole myriad of things that people have um decided are are sins that are not as bad as the other sins, and I'm allowed to have um a reasonable amount of these in my life without being seen as unrespectable. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

Um, you know, there's there's a lot we could dive into on that subject. And so let's do that. Okay. So and part of it is, I think, this sin of pride. So one of the early chapters of the book really digs into the idea of um criticizing other people's sins and really looking at the sins of others well, even with the same sins in ourself, measuring those against our intent or our our noble beliefs behind it. And so um I wanted to talk about boiling that down to the idea of um the scripture says this really well with hey, don't try and take the speck out of your neighbor's eye with you got a plank in your own.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

Yeah, yeah. Um well, everybody else thinks that their neighbor has the log in their eye and it's just a speck in theirs in general, right? The Bible obviously flips that on its head unless you know whatever the sin is in your life is is the biggest problem. Yeah, um, deal with that first, make that a priority. I don't know that we spend a lot of time doing self-reflection, and the Puritans did this really well. They talked about vivification and mortification all the time. Like um, if you ever read through pr uh Puritan literature, I've been going through some spurgeon lately. I'm amazed at how reflective and how the internal um nature of their thinking is. Like everything most people write about today is what's going on around us, what's happening in the world, and what's going on here and what's going on there. And so much of the self-help um platform in general is constantly trying to create uh a false sense of grace for people. Yeah. Like it's not that big of a deal. Yeah. I'm gonna encourage you. I want to build you up. The most important thing is that you're motivated to do better, you know, to try harder, to or um to let go of guilt and shame. And I gotta tell you, our world could do with a good dose of guilt and shame. Absolutely. Our world could use a lot of it right now. Yeah, we literally have shows called Shameless. You know what I mean? Which you should not watch if you're paying attention. But uh I I think um these two things, although it could be held with a heavy hand, um, in in some places in history, uh, are not held with a heavy hand at all. We are so far on the give grace to everyone and everything side of the spectrum that we're sending people to hell with as many high fives as we can give them in the process and calling it Christianity. Well, what's that? I want to encourage you. I want to have your back, I want to, I want to advocate for you. And I'm not gonna use words like repentance, I'm not gonna make you focus on the problems in your life. And the Puritans were had this idea of vivification, which is seeing clearly God, looking upon him, beholding him, seeing his holiness, his goodness, his character, his attributes, and mortification, putting to death, therefore, the deeds of the flesh, right? Like the Romans 13 passage there. It's I want to go to war with the things in me and see clearly what's going on inside of me and deal with those things and not just walk past them and act like they're okay. Yeah. And I think so many people get caught up in this world, man, of like walking past sins that have just been around forever and then saying, Yeah, but at least I don't do that. So it must be okay. Yeah. This is never more clear in my opinion than in marriage. Um, most people that are married justify all their sins in marriage by the sin of their spouse. Yep. They're doing this, so this is okay for me. Or they're, you know, ever since you were a kid, you've heard two wrongs don't make a right. You know what I mean? Yeah. Um, it's still the same today. Uh, nobody else's sin is validating your sin. Yeah, nobody else's sin is making a covering for your sin. It's just sin on top of sin. Yeah. And um it is problematic. It's problematic. I I would highly encourage people, if they're looking for this reflective thing, to read some Puritan literature. Even just even just buy value of vision and start reading through some of the prayers in there. Start soaking those into your bones a little bit and like absorbing the reality of our own depravity and how far we've fallen and and the chasm um in our current state with where God is and where we're meant to be. And like let that do some work in your heart. Um Lewis actually has a quote elsewhere where he says um it's in the it's in the Great Divorce, actually. He talks about the um, I think he says shame tastes bitter when you first drink it. But he says you have to drink the cup all the way down to the bottom to find that it's actually very nourishing. Like if you stop halfway, if you quit, because you're like, I just don't want to deal with that, I don't want to think about it. You never get to actually the good part of it, which is, oh, this is what it's trying to show me. Yeah. There's check engine lights, you know, there's red lights popping up on your dashboard when you're driving or trying to tell you something's wrong with the car. The goal wouldn't be to keep driving the car. The goal would be to pull over, stop, and see what's going on.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

And don't smash the light out ideally.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

Shame and guilt are uh are something that are trying to show you something that's going on inside of you. Whether a lie that you're dealing with or a sin that you're walking in, and if you're just like, no, it's fine. What the car needs is encouragement instead of fixing. You got this car. Yeah, there's a lot of problems. Like uh changing the oil doesn't work if the if you blew a cylinder, you know what I mean? Like it's not gonna fix what's going on. So I think it's important, and I'm I'm glad you brought it up. But yeah, what are some of the things you're saying, or what are some of the text that maybe you wanted to get into?

SPEAKER_01 8:30

Um, well, but before we do that, you you wanted to you pointed out something that I find is is bru there's a brutal irony, is you know, we're so bad at calling sin, and we have to accept everything and all that, except for the sin of not accepting everyone. Like that is that is the one thing that culture writ large and even the church can't allow is someone who will stand in the gap and say, No, you need to feel shame for that. You need to like this is wrong.

SPEAKER_00 9:03

Even saying the words you should feel shame for that would be repugnant to our world today. Yeah. And I would say, no, the Bible's full of it.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

Like, don't fat shame, don't kink shame. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

We really, really should. Yeah. Yeah. And we call it toxic if anybody wants to stand for some kind of moral standard. Yeah. Right. But um, again, that the reminder for all of us is go to war with yourself before you point it out. You know what I mean? And anybody else. Get to a place where you're acknowledging it in yourself before you're able to um go to war in other places, lest you be the hypocrite. And I have seen this a lot. People who love doctrine, love the Bible, and are really good at theology. Um, God, God bless theologians. I love getting into the word, I love being nerdy about it. But if you're hiding behind your knowledge of the Bible um or using that to help you feel like you don't have to walk out what's actually in the Bible, now we have a problem. And your knowledge of the Bible does not make up for uh whatever depravity or sin conditions that you're not dealing with in your own life. And uh however fervent you want to tell other people what the Bible says, it's not if it's not fixing your own problem, I don't think you fully understand what the Bible is saying about it in the first place. Yeah. But that's for free, whoever you are listening to this.

unknown 10:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:20

No, so what I'd like to jump into next is um idolatry.

SPEAKER_00 10:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 10:26

Uh, and there's a couple different ways that this uh sort of sin is acceptable. Yeah. Um, and I think one of the first ones we can talk about is the the idolatry of um something that is a group activity that everybody loves that we can all then like focus on to the to the distraction of everything else. Like think the Super Bowl. Okay, March Madness. Yeah. Like some of these things are a lot of fun. Like it's okay. I'm not gonna say it's a sin to you know go watch sports, but you've met that guy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:02

Yeah, I think um this might even fall into the acceptable sins category. Yes. Right? Yeah. Um, things that have uh that stir your heart and mind and rearrange your schedule far faster than uh things that scripture would say are things that you should be doing. If you're more hyped about sports, uh if you're more hyped about uh March Madness, like you're saying, than you are about Baptism Sunday, something is freaking wrong. Um but again, in our world today, there's uh there's cult followings of certain things. And look, let's be honest, sometimes our heart is not always fire as fired up about what we should be fired up at about as it is other things. And again, when that happens, we shouldn't run past it. We should be asking ourselves the question, why? And I will say this right now. Um, most sins that let's say seasoned Christians have are not overt sins. They're not sins that the Bible immediately condemns, they're neutral things that become sin because of the priority that they take in your life. So if if you're moving heaven and earth for a neutral thing uh to make it happen, if you're moving the best things out of the way for this good thing, that good thing has become an ultimate thing. Uh and in the words of Scott Nichol, when good things become ultimate things, ultimately good things become destructive things. Anything that you are uh is rearranging your relationships, anything that's rearranging your schedule, anything that's rearranging your devotion to God or the devotions you should have, the rhythms of grace in your life. Now we're talking about a sin. Yeah. And I'll just go here and I'll throw in video games real quick. If you are up all night playing video games to the point where you're a total jerk the next day and lacking sleep and do a crappy job at your work and are not aware of what's going on around you because you were just up too late. Okay, so you may not want to call video game sin. That behavior was just really stupid. And now it's causing you to live a different way. It's no different than somebody who was up drinking.

SPEAKER_02 13:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

You know what I mean? You wake up the next day hung over, frustrated, tired, whatever. Now I'm now the way I'm treating people, I'm not bringing my best, I'm not bringing God my best. I I gave half of the day to last night doing something that wasn't edifying or good. Um, and I don't know anybody who woke up the next morning and thought, gosh, I would have spent, I wish I would have spent one more hour playing video games last night. Yeah. Like I don't know anybody who's ever thought that. You never wake up wishing you had wasted more of the day you have, you know, with the day uh previously. And it's um it's not healthy. Same with shows and everything else. I'm not saying there can't be nights where you're up a little bit later hanging out and goofing off with people. I'm not dogging on that, but some people are in a cycle of um wasting their time and energy in the next day on things that don't matter, and they don't get out of that cycle and wonder why they're not experiencing joy, why they have heightened levels of anxiety and frustration, and why they're more susceptible to other patterns of sin. And it's because you're filling your tank with garbage. Yeah. You're this thing that wasn't a sin, and you can say with conviction that is not a sin, and even defend that it's not a sin, has now become sin in your life because you put it in a place where now it has become sinful.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

Yeah.

Building A God You Prefer

SPEAKER_00 14:36

So shows you're watching, uh, games you're playing, whether that's PC or Xbox or PS5 or whatever other weird thing that you're doing, be cognizant of like what it's producing in your life the next day. Is this something that is helping me walk in righteousness, or is this actually something that is actively working against those things in my life? Then make the decision, Christian, be reflective and ask yourself the question: is this a respectable sin? Is this something that I've come to defend and know I can uh I can get away with, but in actuality is not helpful in any way? And I wouldn't tell somebody else to get involved in this world. Yeah. It's worth asking. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

Um, no, the other part of idolatry I wanted to talk about, and I was looking for the quote here, but I can't, I can't, I didn't write down the page number on that one. I can't find it. Um it's it's taking God and then forming him to our own idea of God, oh yeah, and then idolizing that and making almost a monument to God, but not not big G God, but our little G God idol.

SPEAKER_00 15:44

Yeah. Um yeah, I've uh I've even talked about this in the past. Some people have an idea of God in their head that is not consistent with scripture. Uh I believe most parts of the Bible, but this part I don't agree with.

SPEAKER_01 15:58

No.

SPEAKER_00 15:59

I like most things about God, but I don't really like this part about God. Was it um was it Thomas Jefferson who was famous for taking scissors to the Bible and cutting out all the parts that he didn't like? Yes. I think it's called the Jefferson Bible or something like that. I just took out all the parts that he felt like didn't agree with the version of God that he had.

SPEAKER_02 16:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

What's terrifying when you think about it is if you have this kind of um subway version of Jesus where I get to put together the God that I want and then they serve it to me at the counter, which by the way is what I think a lot of churches do. Um, I'll just leave out all the parts of the Bible that might be uncomfortable or unsavory for some people, even though that's the best part for them. Yeah. You're the you're the guy who is still I feel personally attacked with my subway eating. I'm telling you, I'm over here. Like some people are like, I don't like vegetables, don't put lettuce and tomato on my burger. And I'm like, oh, good for you, buddy. You stay strong, you little three-year-old. But but for real, yeah, like that's the mentality a lot of people have with God. And then what's hard is that a lot of those people get into a Sunday service, put their hands up in worship, and are singing praises to a God that is actually made in their own image. This is the God that I prefer because it actually looks more like me. It it follows the morality that I have, it follows the sense that I want to make of it. It it's not a God of the Bible. It's a God that has a lot of the things in the Bible that I like without the other stuff because it looks like me. And then I put my hands up in worship and I praise the God that is myself.

SPEAKER_01 17:34

And we end up with a lot of these denominations or people who will who will literally say, Well, I believe in a loving God, not a God that would condemn X. And it's like, no, no, he literally condemns X in the Bible.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

I don't give a crap what you believe in. Yeah, exactly. I I don't. In that moment, if we're saying, what does the Bible say or what do I want to believe? I have no desire to help encourage you on your way to hell. Exactly. I have no desire to give you that high five and remove some shame over something that you want to believe, over what the triune God of the Bible has actually communicated and given to us in his infallible word. So whatever cool ideas that are sending you to hell, it is not loving in any way for me to continue to tell you, good for you, buddy, that's fine. You'll get there eventually. Yeah. This is not the way. Uh, I think Thomas Aquinas defined love as seeking someone's best, something along those lines. I think that's right. Yeah, I think I think that's right. Like our goal should be I want what is actually best for you, according to scripture, not what you think is best for you in this particular moment. And empathy has dominated conversations and says that person, whoever's in that painful situation, gets to tell you what they need, and you don't have any say in what's actually going on. You just need to be with them and let them share and whatever. No, the Bible is saying Jesus came down into our filth and did not pat us on the back and say, You guys are doing great. I'm gonna die for you. He said, Y'all are sinners, you guys are a mess. I'm making a way for you to come to me. But that's faith and belief and walking in obedience uh to what to those commandments and the thing that he said. And I think so many people are like, I love the God that saves me. I love the picture of the cross. As long as it's God just saving anybody from anything, but I don't like the idea of the blood. I don't even really like the idea of the sacrifice because that means he had to die for something. And that means I sinned. And that means there's things in my life that are, you know, that are problematic. And and man, the the blood is the reminder for all of us. The crow, the crucifixion of Christ is the reminder to all of us that we have to die. We are not good. We're not put together. And whatever idea you think you have of God, if it doesn't line up with the Bible, my brother, you are going to hell. Yep, that is the reality. Repent, turn to Christ, trust what the word of God says, and get out of this self-help, um uh, you know, psychological sense of the world where every sin in your life is actually just the consequence of what somebody else did or their problems, and the whole world needs to move around for me. No, no, no, the whole world needs to move for Christ.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:26

And my job as a pastor is to tell people, prepare the way for the for the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world. I want to remove every roadblock and I want to get it everything out of the way that would keep people from seeing the real Jesus. And I got to tell you, people who are preaching a soft gospel, who refuse to bring up hell, who don't want to talk about repentance, who don't want to talk about spiritual warfare, who don't want to bring up the devil, who don't want to bring up anything they think is taboo in our world, are putting roadblocks on the road and keeping people from meeting the real Jesus. They're gonna meet a version of Jesus that is actually a conflation of some of the parts of the Bible and themselves, and then they're gonna worship that God.

SPEAKER_01 21:06

Well, and it's it to be pithy for a moment, yeah. Um, you know, they they might have good intent by what they're doing, but you know, we talked about the road to hell last week, and we can talk about the road to hell again this week in a different different phrase. Is the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Sure. You you see that with these, like, you know, I just want, you know, I want everybody to come. Everybody's welcome.

SPEAKER_00 21:29

Bring y'all your sin it bring like is that good intention though? Like, let's just analyze the statement for a second. The the road to hell is paved with good intentions seems to communicate that people are trying to do the right thing. And I would say, no, I would say they're trying to justify their own sin and make people feel better about it so that they feel better about their own sin. So I guess you could conflate that because the way I read that is the road to hell is paved with nice. Yeah. Yeah, and nice is what makes everybody feel comfortable, right? Exactly. So yeah, I mean, if your goal, if you think good intentions, my good intention for you is that you would be comfortable, I would say you don't have good intentions. Yeah. You're somebody is bleeding out and your goal is just just get them comfortable. Yeah. You're Canada right now. I was gonna say You're trying to euthanize people that can be saved and can be made healthy. You don't want to help people. You're just trying to get them off your conscience. And that is not that's not good intentions. No. That's that's murder. Yeah, not at all. Anyways, I should be uh, you know, a little more open about what I think. I shouldn't I shouldn't hold it in so much, you know. You shouldn't.

Patriotism That Replaces Discipleship

SPEAKER_01 22:35

You really shouldn't. Um so kind of pivoting a little bit to a different um different type of um acceptable sins. Acceptable sins is is this worship of good things and then making your your own faith incumbent on those good things. So um the example I have here is is like forces and you know mythologic mythological mythos. Okay. Like turning science into your mythos, turning um, you know, disbelief of of demonic forces into like, you know, I d I don't believe in demons, but science is is a mirac miracle, or yeah, or even taking something like um pacifism or patriotism. So this book was written during World War II. Um and so there's a lot of war talk in there, and so uh, but I think patriotism specifically you can kind of see today and kind of see what it can do. So um there's there's almost this step-by-step thing of looking at let's let's do patriotism here, saying patriotism fits into my faith, um and it's you know a part of my faith, and you know, my Christian faith involves my patriotism, and then take taking it and making, well, patriotism is the most important part of my faith.

SPEAKER_00 23:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

And then going down that trail to where, well, now my my faith is supplementing to my patriotism, and I only care about my faith insofar as it can support my patriotism. Yeah. Uh yeah. And like talking about acceptable sins or or all the patriotism, or I would just say it's a false flag.

Moralism Without Christ

SPEAKER_00 24:19

Yeah. Right? Um, yeah, the whole Bible wrapped in the American flag thing is really, really hard for me. I love our country, a lot of it, you know? Yeah. Um, but whatever. Oh man. How far down the wormhole do we go here? Whatever was founded on Christ will prevail. Here's what I know nations come and nations go, the kingdom of God will remain. The work that God did through nations, did through different times, different peoples, different places, all of that will remain and be good. But any time that you're holding on to something in the natural and conflating it with the supernatural in some kind of hierarchical way, it usually gets messy in a hurry. I brought this up before. I don't even like the Christian flag uh flying underneath the American flag. No. That seems incredibly wrong to me. We were at a we were at a school the other day, and they did the pledge to the Christian flag, um, and then they did the pledge uh of allegiance at the same time. And what I was trying to communicate, I had a conversation with the pastor, and I told him, I was like, hey, listen, man, I I get it. Like you're just you're walking through kind of the emotions. The this is the this is what we do during the day. These are the things that we're trying to remind kids are really important. But what you just told them is the two allegiances I have in my life are to God and the same type of allegiance I'm giving to my country. And I would say, no, my allegiance is to Christ primarily. And listen, when I die, I will stand before God as an American. Yeah. That is where he put me. This is the place that I am. This is the I want to seek the good of the place that I am. I want to raise my kids as Americans. I love our country, uh, all of those things. I do not love my country more than Jesus. Oh, no. I don't love my country more than Christ. And if my nation goes a different direction, my faith is not going to be shaken because my country fell apart. Now, all of the Israelites, you know, all of the the Israelites in in Christ's time, all of the apostles died as enemies of the state. Yeah. Every one of them were murdered by their own country. And if you think that America is some paragon of light that is a representation of Jesus, you have a false representation of where we're at right now in the gamut of things. It's a mess. It's not put together. Just read some of the stuff from Epstein Island, notice some of the names on there, pay attention to where the money is going and our culture, and you will see that it is really messy. And I think people have an idea of fighting for a Christian nation. Praise God. I'm a Christian nationalist. Ah, freak out. I want our nation to be Christian. Yeah, I really do. I think we all should. I think that's the heart of the Great Commission, is that we should want to see nations discipled. They should come to Christ. I think secularism is the blight in churches that has told everybody it's okay for everybody else to believe other things and we'll all just get along. And you're trying to create heaven without holiness. It's a problem. That's not gonna work. Um, we get into that at some point, but ultimately, uh, the idea of a Christian nation, praise the Lord. I I want that. America is not a Christian nation. No, because it says in God we trust on our money, it doesn't mean now I give my life for this country because it stands for Christ. That is not that is not the same thing. Now, some of our founding documents, some of the people who are putting this stuff together, uh far wiser than I am, they were like 25 and 26 years old, you know, writing some of this stuff. And I'm like, I'm an idiot. We're all idiots compared to what some of these guys were doing. But um technically our citizenship, according to Philippians, is in heaven. And what's interesting in Philippians, too, is that it was uh founded by Alexander the Great's father, uh Philip of Macedon, or uh he was he basically instituted Philippi as like one of his primary places. This was the Texas, if you want to think about it that way, of the world at that time. So if you lived in Philippi, you were a citizen, baby. I am a citizen of Rome. I am a Roman of Romans, I am I am the American flag, dual shotguns, fireworks, and eagle screeching with Ron Swanson in the background. Okay, like it's that. And he was saying, hey, your citizenship is in heaven. It's not here. You're you're putting all your eggs in this who I am, your identity is misplaced. You are not an American first. You are a Christian first. And wherever America is not walking where Christ is called it to, we're to call it to repentance. And wherever you are giving an allegiance to something that is actually not in accordance with what Christ has called you to, you're called to do what the apostles did, which is go the opposite direction and actually be willing to die at the hands of your own country to stand for what Christ called you to stand for. Um one of the places where I see this coming into our culture today. Um man, it's it's weird, but like, okay, so like the whole Jordan Peterson phenomenon. Yes. Um, I think there is a massive movement towards moralism right now. Massive movement to moralism. Um, Jordan Peterson wants to take all the stories in the Bible and tell you the moral principles that exist in all of them, and then basically tell you to be better.

SPEAKER_01 30:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:00

These are the things that we should do. Here's how you can be a man. Here's here's the things that you're supposed to do to make your life better. It's practical.

SPEAKER_02 30:07

Go clean your men.

SPEAKER_00 30:09

Yeah, that was great. Yeah, it's it speaks to men because it speaks to a standard that most men know that they're supposed to reach, but it doesn't give you any power to do so. Yeah. There's no Christ in there that's necessary. Christ is a typological picture of the person that maybe we could all become if we would just live up to these moral standards. And the Bible is trying to clearly communicate to you without Christ, you're dead in your sins. You cannot possibly live up to these standards. These are the things that we're know we're supposed to do, but it's denying fundamentally the idea of sin. It's denying fundamentally the need for Christ, but it's making people feel excited about the Bible because they feel like I can read it in a way now where I understand it and I'm comfortable with it, because I don't need the crucifixion to be personal to me for my sin and my own brokenness. No. I like the idea of what it represents for all of us in our endeavor to become more moral beings for a more stable culture. Do I want a stable culture? Yes. Do I want people to be more moral? Yes. But moralism will send you to hell just as fast as paganism will. And if you read the story of Pilgrim's Progress, there's a uh Christian is on his way to the eternal city, and there's a city that is just outside of the place that he comes from, um, which is basically hell or going to hell. And it's called moralism because it's a bunch of people who came out of this place on their way to the eternal city and stopped at the city of morality. And morality sits there and looks at all the wicked people and says, We're not them. Thank God we made it out of there, but didn't make it to the eternal city. Yeah. I feel like Jordan Peterson is the president of morality. Yeah. He's the president of the guy, he's sitting there telling everybody else these are the moral principles and ways that we can look at things and we can learn and we can grow as individuals, but I'm fundamentally denying the need uh for who Christ is and what he represents. And look, if you know I'm ever invited onto a podcast with Jordan Peterson, it will never happen. Um, I'm sure the guy could twist my brain 37 ways with uh how much he knows, what he's read, all of those different things. But I ultimately don't care because I'm holding on to what the word of God actually says. And you can tell me all the moral truths you want to and all the psychological, uh neon Gnostic um uh insights that you have. It is not replacing the fullness of who Christ is, our brokenness, our need for a legitimate savior, and our inability to walk in the morality that Christ calls us to, apart from real faith in Jesus, the Jesus of the Bible, and accepting him as our savior and our Lord. Yeah. So just saying.

SPEAKER_01 32:47

And what I think is really interesting, and to kind of preempt some of the potential pushback we might get from our listeners here, sure, um, is a lot of the stuff Jordan Peterson says, if you already have a really solid Christian baseline, yeah, can be helpful.

SPEAKER_00 33:04

Totally.

SPEAKER_01 33:05

Like it can be useful. We're not saying that he's he's you know a crackpot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:11

I really fumbly for life, a red maps of meaning. Yeah. Uh I did a bunch of the stuff with We Who Wrestle With God. Um I'm paying attention to the conversation. There's a lot good there. Yeah. There's just a lot there that is uh missing, and it's some of the most, if not the most important parts of the book that we're reading, and we're like cleverly weaving around it so that we don't actually have to share the gospel with people because you know, we don't want to offend them, but we want them interested. Thank you. Uh you are falling right in line with every other uh Greek philosopher. So cool ideas that don't work. There's a 101.

When Humor Becomes A Cover

SPEAKER_01 33:48

Yeah. So all right. I want to pivot. Okay, go ahead. Um pivot? I want to talk about humor. Uh so uh here is here are some quotes uh that I actually have highlighted in the book that I think are really interesting. So he I think there's two points I want to hit on here. Yeah humor writ large and then um dirty jokes. Okay. Body humor.

SPEAKER_00 34:16

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 34:17

Um so there are some to whom no passion is as serious as lust, and for whom an indecent story ceases to produce lava uh lasciviousness precisely insofar as it becomes funny. That uh there are others in whom laughter and lust are excited at the same moment by the same things. The first sort joke about sex because it gives rise to many incongruities. The second cultivates incongruities because they afford a pretext for talking about sex. If you are a man of the first type, body humor will not help. If your man is of the first type, body humor will not help you. Break it down. Okay. So there are two types of of of people when it comes to sexual humor. There are the people who the very act of making it into humor, making it into jokes, takes away the power of talking about sex. Because you're not talking about sex, you're making a joke. Yeah. You're talking about um it's the absurdity of it in the first place. Yeah. Like it doesn't work because because sex is a serious thing. Yeah. And and to make it funny and to make it absurd takes away its power. The second type of man is the one who's so obsessed with the idea of sex that the whole point of talking about sex in a joking manner is just to talk about sex. It's to bring it up and to have that.

SPEAKER_00 35:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

Yeah. Yeah. Um We are not always one man or another, I would say. Sure. But I think you can be very um you can condition yourself towards one way or the other. And yeah, and our I think our culture has a lot more of the second than the first.

SPEAKER_00 36:11

Yeah, I think um I think sex has kind of become um a god of this age, if you want to think about it that way. Um I think in a world that has uh become bankrupt from a um from a pleasure standpoint. You know, uh his other quote about um playing with mud pies, you know what I mean, in an alley uh as a child and not wanting to go on vacation because you have no idea of what a vacation at the sea would even look like or what that would feel like. You you're settling for you know half-hearted endeavors uh when God is offering you something glorious. I think when you are bankrupt in your own faith and you've lost what it is to treasure Christ, you settle for worshiping the creation rather than the creator. Uh it's very Romans 1. So what your heart desires and where your head is at, the the Bible says pretty clearly, out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks, right? Yeah. Um, but to your point, not every comment about sex is ungodly. Not every uh joke made uh is done in a poor way. And I think some people think any conversation at any time is outright or inappropriate or intentionally stirring something up. And I would say it's difficult on two levels because one, you may be saying something, and you don't mean it in an inappropriate way, it's the absurdity of the thing itself that you're pointing out. Yeah. But the person that you're speaking to may be of the second sort. Yeah. And then you're still in a pickle because you put that person in a weird spot in the first place as well. So it's uh it's a tricky conundrum. Here's what I would say in general, um, when it comes to uh jokes, uh, look, there's there's a type of joking that I've seen guys do, you know, if you want to call it locker room talk or something with a couple of guys where you're making, you know, fart jokes or whatever, and it's not a big deal in one particular environment, put it in another environment, and now it's become inappropriate because of the people that are there, the circumstances that you're in. Um, but I do think he's pointing out some people are making jokes from one place, some people are making jokes from a totally different place, and you need to know where it's coming from for you. Yeah. If you're the guy that uh finishes everything with with that's what she said, maybe there's a problem. Yeah. Maybe something is wrong. Like, have you asked yourself the question, why are you continually going back to this pattern of thinking that way? Um, and some of that is the shows that you're watching that are programming your brain, you know what I mean, to think that way and rush that particular direction. But it is good also not to not to assume that because somebody said something um that seemed from left field that their intention was to come from left field, maybe they're just in a better place mentally than you are. There's um there's a text in Ephesians about um coarse jesting. And I was uh I was talking with my wife about this actually. Um I'm trying to find the text exactly, but he's talking about coarse jesting, and I think the the guts of what he's actually trying to get to in this passage, gosh dang it. I'm struggling to find it in this moment. More has to do with what your heart is doing in the moment, less of the joking itself. Like, what are you what are you actually trying to attain? What is the goal of what you're doing? Humor, uh, in the words of Duck Wilson, is a belt-fed weapon in the hands of the believer. Like it humor is such, it can break tension, it can break stress. Um, laughing in the face of adversity and difficulty is a Christian trait. Yeah. Do that. Uh, humor that is mingled with darkness um is ultimately a belt-fed weapon in the hands of the enemy and is producing uh a particular type of joy in things that would break God's heart. And so you got to be careful, especially with shows you're watching, um comedians that you're listening to, even if you're laughing at stuff that would um Jesus would be flipping tables over, pay attention. Yeah. And you might be getting caught up in some of these acceptable sins where people are saying, yeah, it's okay because it's funny. No, still not okay. Just because there's good Christian humor and good things that you should laugh at, and there's things that you should intentionally avoid and guard your heart from laughing at, lest you get caught up in something that is actually going to bear the wrath of God one day.

SPEAKER_01 40:45

And that kind of ties into this second quote I have on the very subject. Yeah. Um cruelty is shameful. Unless so to the world, cruelty is shameful unless the cruel man can represent it as a practical joke. A thousand body or even blasphemous jokes do not help towards a man's damnation so much as his discovery that almost anything he wants to do can be done, not only without disapproval, but with the admiration of his fellows, if only he can get itself treated as a joke. Okay. Break it down into English for us. Okay. Uh our culture uh has this thing with practical jokes where we we love to make shows about it punked. We love to see like all of these things happen. And there's a lot of these things that if you take the context of it not being funny and you don't immediately accept that it's funny, it's just pure cruelty, and it's just a way of someone being a terrible person to to someone that they obstensibly like, yeah, um, just for the sake of doing it.

SPEAKER_00 41:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:55

Um, and what he's saying here is um anything that you can get your fellows to laugh at, um despite how awful how evil is how evil it is, is innocent in their eyes. And that is and and even to your own eyes at that point, you need to be very careful.

SPEAKER_00 42:18

So yeah, that's good. I I think that's true. I think a lot of people um ultimately have bitterness and frustration that they have jammed up deep down, and if somebody can present what they want to say as a joke instead of just saying it outright, it gives them immense joy and feels like they were able to say the sinful thing without saying it in a way where they were exposed for just being outright sinful. Yeah. I give you every uh sitcom in the 90s and early 2000s where men were the butt of every single joke. If you're a dad or a father, whether you're Homer Simpson or Ray Ray Romano or whatever it was, um, it seems like there was an angry feminist mob that uh had their way with uh the hearts of women and made men the butt of every single joke in every sitcom for like a solid 25 years, I feel like. And because it's it's funny, you know what I mean? Because it's humor, people are able to get out some of these sinful thoughts and ideas that they have in a way where we can all laugh about it together. And it's it's repulsive. Like it's not okay. If we did the same shows, but we made women the butt of every joke, the whole world would be mortified. Yeah. You know what I mean? But but we'll do it this way, and it's it's totally fine. It's not a big deal at all. And um, yeah, I mean, even in conversations with people, you'll see this kind of mentality, right? Like, oh, I was just kidding. Shut up. Yeah. No, you weren't.

SPEAKER_01 43:48

No, well, and it's it's the the same problem that you see with sarcasm. People will say something sarcastically that they genuinely believe, but because they said it sarcastically, it's fine. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_00 43:59

Yeah. Like Humor, humor betrays the heart. Either it's full of joy and you're showing what's actually going in the inside, or it's full of malice and frustration and sin, and you're going to show that as well. In fact, um in the conversation about reflection, it occurs to me as we're talking about it that humor might be one of the best things to analyze your own heart. What do you laugh at and what do you find is funny? Yeah. That might tell you a lot about where your joy actually is and where your bitterness actually is. And um analyzing that, if you're watching this, you're listening to this right now, the shows you're listening to, the stuff you laugh at, the conversations that you have and what you're goofing off and talking about with people, should tell you a lot about where your heart's actually at in relation to what God would say is good and right, and um how much actual joy you're having versus the counterfeit version of humor that maybe makes you feel good in the moment, but actually isn't encouraging you or helping stir your heart in the long run.

Flippancy And Empty Words

SPEAKER_01 44:58

It's funny that you tie it together with joy because it actually ties exactly in with the next thing I wanted to talk about is in humor is flippancy.

SPEAKER_00 45:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:07

Um and so among flippant people, the joke is always assumed to have been made. No one actually makes it, but every serious subject is discussed in a matter which implies that they have already found a ridiculous side to it. Um and what I wrote down here on my notes is when you're flippant here, you're no longer laughing at humor, you're just assuming the joke, and it's almost mirthless, and it actually it deadens the very existence of joy within you.

SPEAKER_00 45:37

Yeah. Uh Jesus says, I want to say it's Matthew 12, we'll be judged for every empty word that we speak. And we've talked about this, I think, at some point before, but just emptying words of their meaning. Like we have this tendency to take things that are supposed to be weighty, they're supposed to have um some substance to them. And when we make light of things or take uh good things and make them uh meaningless or less valuable, in our world today, that's funny. Like we brought up on the podcast a couple of weeks ago um piss Christ, right? Like artwork that is taking what is meant to be glorious and beautiful and intentionally marring it or making a show of it in some kind of uh sacrilegious way, it's the exact same thing. And uh, and again, it's betraying something in us. If you go into a church and uh you're in a service and your goal is to be worshiping God and and paying attention to God, and you're better at making jokes about uh what somebody is wearing, um, something silly that somebody said, or pointing out things that you see as discrepancies, it's what you're doing in that moment is emptying the moment for uh of meaning. You think you're superior in that moment for some reason when actually you're missing the entire point of why you're there. You have uh you've lost your way.

SPEAKER_01 46:56

Yeah, you don't you've lost the plot.

SPEAKER_00 46:58

You've lost the plot. Yeah. Absolutely.

Real Joy Versus Trendy Posturing

SPEAKER_01 47:01

So one of the other things I wanted to talk about here, and we've kind of talked about acceptable sins, but we've we've teetered into the realm of hobbies and entertainment quite a bit. So more on the side of entertainment, um, I wanted to bring up kind of one of the commentaries the book has about entertainment, and um, it's really interesting. So uh it's this is a uh a chapter where um Screwtape is uh criticizing Wormwood's method. And he says, And now for your blunders. On your own showing, you first of all allowed the patient to read a book that he really enjoyed because he enjoyed it and not in order to make clever remarks about it to his new friends. In the second place, you allowed him to walk down to the old mill and have tea there, a walk through c country he really likes and take it alone. In other words, you allowed him two very real positive pleasures. Um and I wanted to talk about real positive pleasures versus the the flip side of what it is of doing things, having hobbies, specifically to be as the book says, be clever about it or be pithy in negative ways about it.

SPEAKER_00 48:14

Trendy might be the word we would use today. I did this so I could comment on it or brag to other people that I did it. Not because I really enjoy it for its own sake. Yeah. Boy. If that doesn't speak to our entire world today, where we think happiness is ultimately doing things that other people think make people happy for the sake of finding happiness and doing something that other people aren't doing, rather than actually doing things that you enjoy. I mean, I I feel like our world is just drowning in that kind of mentality where it's like, I can't find real happiness, but I will settle for other people thinking I'm happy instead.

unknown 48:53

You know what?

SPEAKER_00 48:55

It's messy, man. It's messy, but it's it's real in that I think Satan wants to keep people from legitimate joy. He wants to keep people from actually enjoying the things that they're putting their hands to and the things that they're doing. Like one thing I've noticed is it's it's um it's an acceptable sin to be frustrated with, um, comment on, negatively talk about uh in a respectable way how much you hate your job. How many people sit around and it's almost like a it's a smoker table. Yeah. We can all agree about complaining about things. Yes. We can we can find common ground. And the more we can complain about things, the more we bond. And the second we stop talking about the things that we're frustrated by, uh suddenly we don't get along with these people anymore. Why is that? Maybe because you're bonding over bitterness and frustration, and you don't actually have any substance in your conversations. Nobody's doing anything that's actually like, no, I actually really like this. This is great. I appreciate this. One thing I I actually admire about you, Casey, is every time I talk to you about your work, you'll bring up a couple of things that are difficult that you're working on. But by and large, you're like, no, love my job. Love what I get to do, really excited about it. It means a lot, it's important, and um, they've been really good to me. Like this is a that's not a normal thing. Most people, what they're expecting when you ask somebody about their job is tell me all the frustrations and reasons why you feel like you're also trapped in this, you know, whatever, whatever it is that's going on. And I think that's it's not biblical, it's not good. No, but it is something that has become um almost uh, you know, axiomatic when you ask somebody about their job. Is it's gonna be bad. It's all, you know, it's all, it's all gone south. It's, you know, I'm working for the man, whatever it is that's going on. It's uh it's messy. And um, I think, I think we should be very careful about doing things because they help me connect with other people or help me feel like I'm somehow part of the group. You know what I mean? When when ultimately it's not bringing you joy and it's not helping you with anything that you're doing in your real life. Well, fitness is another one.

SPEAKER_01 51:01

To your point about joy, specifically, because the Bible in multiple places talks about considering everything joy or consider it all pure joy, uh, of course the enemy is going to try and rub you of that because if you if you take the concept of God giving you joy through everything, yeah, if the devil can take that joy out of everything, yeah, he's he's winning in that regard.

SPEAKER_00 51:24

Or or replacing it with a with a counterfeit joy.

SPEAKER_01 51:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:27

So right, which is actually devouring you and not growing you.

SPEAKER_01 51:30

No, I think I think one of the other big things um to your point about talking negatively about your job being acceptable, uh, in men's circles and women's circles, talkative negatively about your your husband or your wife. Oh man. Like the the I mean, we have uh axioms in our language or idioms in our language, like the old ball and chain, or or you know, just all of these lady, the old man, the old lady, my old, my old man, like all of these things. It's like we have these things we talk about, that it's okay.

SPEAKER_00 52:04

Like, oh I gotta a honeydew list or happy wife, negative life, negative connotation statements that uh everybody agrees with and it's that nobody should agree with. Exactly. Right to your point, yeah. Happy life, happy or happy wife, happy life is another one of these things that it's like this is not a not a godly statement, not a good statement. I don't even know where this came from, but shoot that guy.

SPEAKER_01 52:26

It's a beta male, it's the beta male mantra.

SPEAKER_00 52:30

It is living out the caricature of all these characters they've seen on sitcoms for however many years, right? But um ultimately, I think what's so great about this book and this particular topic, man, is it just exposes how many areas that idolatry and acceptable sins make it into our everyday life. And if you're not paying attention, if you're not doing what we were talking about earlier, that vivification and mortification, actually analyzing what's going on on the inside, beholding Christ getting to a place where what's filling your tank is Jesus, not just what everybody else tells you will fill your tank. You might actually find real joy. What comes out of your mouth might might start to sound right and good. You might change your entire friend circle because the things that were fueling you and connecting you before won't be there anymore. And you may set an entire trajectory that's new for where you're going, that's actually worth something.

SPEAKER_02 53:25

Yeah.

Friend Groups That Shape Your Soul

Closing Story And Prayer

SPEAKER_00 53:25

And it's these little decisions along the way that produce those kind of outcomes. So I just want to encourage you guys today. What are you laughing at? You know, what are you, what are you spending your time on? Is there anything that's taking over that's an acceptable sin, or let's say wasn't sin, but maybe is in your life right now that's robbing you of the good things that God has for you. Pay attention to those things, start going to war with them, and then seriously look at what happens to your friend circles, what happens to the trajectory of your life in the direction that you're going. Cut ties with people who aren't going that direction with you, and take seriously that there is a war for your mind to distract you and try to pervert joy in a way that's actually stealing from you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:05

So and if I may, one more thing about the friend circles thing, because you you bring it up and it's it's just the perfect anecdote. Yeah. Um find someone who is a trustworthy believer that you can invite into those friend circles who can speak to you honestly about them.

SPEAKER_00 54:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:24

Uh when I met my now wife, um, we had started dating, and I invited her to come uh hang out with some friends. Yeah, I I would go to Village Inn every every week for free pie with a with a friend group. Um, and so I'm like, Yeah, you should come hang out. And so we all did. Um, and we left there and she told me, Why do you hang out with these people? They hate you. And it it was kind of a slap in the face, not from her, but of reality of like the the entire concept of that friend group was you know, all of this sarcasm and being cruel for this, but making it funny.

SPEAKER_00 55:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:02

And I was often the butt of it.

SPEAKER_00 55:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:05

And and she was right, and I never hung out with that friend group again, and it I am all the better for it.

SPEAKER_00 55:10

Yeah. So yeah, man, I could I could tell you story after story. Um wisdom in the Bible is presented as a woman for a reason, right? Uh oftentimes a lot of wisdom there. But listen, you guys have an amazing week. Let me uh let me pray for our peeps listening real quick. God, uh, I pray that you would protect the minds, hearts, and mouths, uh, Lord, of everybody who has listened to this podcast today. Give them a keen awareness of what's happening in their life. Uh, make them awake to the areas and the things that the darkness would have them go to sleep. I pray that you would shift their focus from negativity to the good things that you've given to us. I pray that you would help them to function from a place of receiving legitimate joy, not just superficial happiness in the moment. And I pray, God, that we would begin to expose the work of the enemy as we behold you and uh really reflect on the things in us that need to go. Pray these things in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen.