King's Banner Podcast
Welcome to King's Banner Podcast. We got tired of the same ole answers when we started looking for help when it came to our walks with God. So together we go deeper than most would on topics that most people have heard or were taught but never fully understood. It is our way of simplifying concepts that we may have over complicated throughout our lives. Bringing theology and life experience into each episode. It is our hope and desire to help you in your Christian walk.
King's Banner Podcast
Grace That Grows Fruit
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If grace is free, why does Jesus talk so much about fruit? That question sits underneath a lot of modern Christianity, where “I prayed a prayer” can quietly morph into “so I can live however I want.” We take the parable of the sower (Luke 8, echoed in Matthew and Mark) and follow Jesus’ own explanation: the seed is the Word of God, the soils are the conditions of the heart, and only one kind of hearing leads to salvation, perseverance, and real spiritual growth.
We also connect the dots to sanctification, antinomianism, and the kind of cultural Christianity that leaves people numb to the gospel. When the Word gets snatched, withers under temptation, or gets choked by worries, riches, and pleasures, the issue isn’t lack of exposure, it’s lack of rootedness. That’s why we talk about revivalism without discipleship, “personal Jesus” religion that never joins a real church community, and why time plus obedience reveals what soil you actually are.
From there we bring in John 15, the vine and the branches, to make it plain: if you’re connected to Christ, you won’t be fruitless forever. And we get practical about accountability through church discipline (Matthew 18), why membership matters, and why our shameless, church-hopping culture makes repentance harder, not easier.
If you’ve ever wondered how to tell the difference between momentary enthusiasm and real faith, this conversation is for you. Subscribe, share this with a friend who’s wrestling with grace and obedience, leave a review, and tell us: which “soil” do you think is most common right now, and why?
Welcome And The Big Question
SPEAKER_03Hey guys, welcome to King's Banner Podcast. Today we're going to be talking about the sower and kind of sin and sanctification. So not the soils. Not the soils, but the the parable of the soils. The seeds, the seeds, the sowers. Battlestar Galactica. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah. So you know, it's uh it's it's fun stuff. So we had we had somebody reach out to you earlier this week kind of asking some of these questions, and if we had an episode on them, and uh, you know, we are lazy and we don't want to look back in our backlog to find one, so we're just gonna record one. I think there is like a couple hundred episodes there now. There's a few there, yeah.
SPEAKER_02So I'm happy to jump in and figure it out.
SPEAKER_03Well, and what's crazy to me is like you you've done episodes and then done episodes on the same topic topic years later where you're like, I actually have a different opinion now. Do I really? Not not often, but like once in a while. Once in a while, like it's almost like you're not gonna be able to do that. What was the last thing that happened for? I'm trying to think. What did I what did I change my opinion on? Um you have some interesting opinions on um, I don't think we've talked about it on the podcast recently, but on the Lord's Supper. Uh and then baptism. I think there's some some things you nothing aberrant for you listeners, nothing uh unorthodox or heretic. Just just some some really honestly cool ideas and and cool thoughts on the subject.
SPEAKER_02Problematic from a practical standpoint. Correct, impractical. Yes, yeah. Yeah. So we'll have to get it get to it somewhere. Yeah, I'm gonna have to go back and figure out what I'm yeah.
SPEAKER_03In your in your plethora of spare time, you're gonna have to go listen to your background.
SPEAKER_02Oh my gosh. Could you imagine listening to yourself for that long? I mean, Fred had Fred, you have to do a lot of editing. Am I the voice you hear in your head now?
SPEAKER_03Thank you. Our AI Fred that dreams. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Fred is not an AI. Fred is not an AI. For those of you wondering, it does kind of sound like uh like competition for for Klaus, you know. Claude, but Claude, whatever.
SPEAKER_03I attempted. I attempted. Uh you know, it's good that you don't know the names of AIs because it means you're not writing your sermons that way.
SPEAKER_02Listen, I know you have uh GigaChat GBT and you have um Clock, you know, and you have uh I'm I'm totally kidding. Um grok, right?
SPEAKER_03Why is it named Grok? There's probably a reason for it. The only time I've ever heard the name Grok prior to that AI was uh from a game designer trying to describe when you just get something, it's something that you grok.
SPEAKER_02But I don't know why they named the is it like onomopayetic? Like like I got like yeet something, you know? Uh not that. I don't we're we don't know enough to be able to even say. I don't know. I mean, I think Gronk, like I think like the tight end for the Patriots. Okay, which makes me think of Kronk, which is which is cooler. I would use Kronk or AI. He teaches you how to speak. Yeah, you could you could shift it to Easma or Kronk. That's what I'm talking about. That would be that would be great. Or even there's a little bit of banter between the two of them before you get whatever response from your prompt. That sounds like a great well we're about to make some money on that. Yeah, we yeah, we can do it. This is gonna go well. We can do
AI, Grok, And Data Center Cooling
SPEAKER_02it. Um need a couple million gallons of water, you know. Now that we've done a shorter banter section, Casey, Casey, hang on though, but you're you're a smart guy. AI needs water to stay cool. Is that what it is? We're talking about like jobs, data centers, you know what I mean? So it's not just AI, is it just cooling? That's what I'm asking.
SPEAKER_03I I think so.
SPEAKER_02Like antifreeze, you know what I mean? Like they're running gallons of water. The name Grau comes from the 1960s. Thank you, Fred. Is he he works anyways? Uh 1961 science fiction novel novel, Stranger in a Strange Land by Robert A. Heinlein. In the book, it is a Martian word, meaning to understand something so completely and deeply that the observer becomes a part of the observed. That's pretty meta. That's um seems appropriate and also a little bit 1984. It's fine. Yeah. Yeah, that's which is again appropriate. Anyways, yeah, w water, any free, I don't know. It's I had to ask. I was like, maybe Casey knows. Cooling, like you need water to run cooling for anything, really. Basically, like it needs to be able to sweat to stay cool.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I don't know. Is the most gross way to put that.
Grace Alone And The Sin Excuse
SPEAKER_02Okay, so speaking of sweating, let's talk about sanctification. Go ahead. Yeah, well. Now you can reel me in.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So we we had a listener reach out. Um, and the the the question ultimately boils down to a couple things. Um when you are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ, but through grace alone, yeah. With not by works, yeah. Um you often hear the argument, um, well then it doesn't matter if I sin. And we kind of got into that a little bit with Romans uh recently. Talking about antinomianism. Yeah. Um, but you've got you've got people who legitimately believe they're like, oh, I prayed the prayer. Um so you know, I can I can um you know still have premarital and extramarital sex, and I can still, you know, dress scantily, I can listen to God-hating music.
SPEAKER_02It's fine because you know, Casey, are you are you coming out to us right now? Is that what's happening?
SPEAKER_03Not today, Justin. Not today.
SPEAKER_02You know, they're getting we all wear heels and stretchy pants in front of the mirror or whatever. You know, I'm I'm sorry, I'm kidding. Uh there is, I think there is a type of sounds like a you problem, not a me problem. I think there's a Christianity today that to be honest with you, man, I don't think it's that calculated anymore. No. I think it used to be we lived in a more positively educated Christian ground where people at least understood arguments for why they thought they were allowed to sin. I don't even think that's the case anymore. Okay. I think most people like it. Like that is definitely a approach that people have to stupidity, which is, well, there's grace and uh it covers our sins, and the more we sin, the more grace we receive. So we might as well just full send, you know? Shh. Um, all the grace I can get via sin. I I don't think most people are even that intelligent. Okay. You know, like I don't even think they're thinking to themselves about the not you guys. That kind of clearly that kind of syllogism. You know what I mean? Like, I don't think the average person is like, uh, great, you know, sin. Oh, this means that. Like, I think most people are just like, I would rather sin and I'm just gonna do that. Like, I think cognitive dissonance is more um uh I'm trying to think of the best way, prevalent, you know, maybe I don't know, widespread, rampant, whatever, then logical.
SPEAKER_03You probably have more cognitive dissonance because you have more cognitive decline in our culture. Yeah. Like if you're not if your cognitive ability is declining, it's gonna be a lot easier to be have those dissonant thoughts.
SPEAKER_02Right back to AI. There we go. We found it. Yes, okay. All right, yeah. So people need to sweat more than machines, and it would sit fix the problem. That's what I'm hearing you say. There we go.
SPEAKER_03So
Reading The Parable Of The Sower
SPEAKER_03let's get into this hour because it's about the seeds, and so we got we got the parable in three of the four gospels.
SPEAKER_02Um, so we can walk through it. I'll I'll I'll pick the one in Luke. And it says when a large crowd was coming together, and those from the various cities were journeying to him, he spoke by way of a parable. Parable literally means to throw up next to. So, like literally, it's it's him giving an illustration of one thing that we're supposed to see happening over here as well. All right. The sower went out to sow his seed, and as he sowed, some fell beside the road, and it was trampled underfoot, and the birds of the air ate it up. Other seed fell on rocky soil, and as soon as it grew up it withered away because it had no moisture. Other seed fell among the thorns, and the thorns grew up with it and choked it out. Other seed fell into the good soil, and grew up and produced a crop of a hundred times as great. As he said these things, he would call out, He who has ears to hear, let him hear. And his disciples began questioning him as to what this parable meant, and he said, To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parable, so that they may not see, and hearing they may not understand. This is a direct quote from Isaiah chapter six. Now the parable is this the seed is the word of God. Those beside the road are those who have heard, then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved. Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy, and these have no firm root. They believe for a while, and in a time of temptation fall away. The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way, uh they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity. But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word and uh heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast and bear fruit with perseverance. Okay. There's our parable. There we go.
SPEAKER_03I guess the the question becomes Yeah Um in this parable there's the four different four different soils. Yeah. Which ones of those soils are saved?
SPEAKER_02Well, um the only soil that is saved is the good soil that actually receives the seed and bears fruit. Okay, which is why Jesus makes the point he who has ears to hear, let him hear in a parable about receiving the word. That's right. That's a little iconic. Yeah, I mean, it's it's in the middle of his joke, he's making a joke about the joke. You know, it's pretty great. Pretty classic, Jesus. Actually, pretty classic. So he's literally sitting there throwing seeds out, and he's like, Some of you guys are gonna take this, totally agree, and two minutes from now disagree because it's confronted by your own difficulties. Some of you guys, it didn't even have a chance. The second I threw it out, you were swatting at it because you're in sin and bogged down by lies. You know, I mean it's this kind of mentality. He's like, some of you guys that can hear are receiving this, allow it to bear fruit and do something in you. But yeah, you have different soils which represent uh, I think the different predispositions or problems with the heart itself. And unless the heart is regenerate, unless somebody's heart is legitimately changed by God, I don't think uh I don't think it matters.
Which Soil Is Actually Saved
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean the the look, the the reform perspective on this is that regeneration precedes salvation, or else you would never be saved. Yeah. Which is to say, um, unless God changes someone's heart, the the word of God will bounce off it non-stop and not go anywhere. And this is frustrating for a lot of people. Yeah. So we don't have to like uh the goal isn't to to start an argument today or something, but clearly in here we have a picture of good soil and bad soil. And it begs the question, you know what I mean, who has ears to hear? Who's actually paying attention? How do how do you tell? And there's some good stuff in here.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, and you you would hear the argument for some of these that, well, you can't lose your salvation. So what about that soil that was rocky and it sprung up sprung up initially and just withered away? It just isn't that somebody who's just saved but isn't living like it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, if you if you wanted to, you could take this parable and make it mean um all of these soils were hearts that were originally saved and then lost their salvation along the way. I would have a harder time buying that.
SPEAKER_03I don't think that's the point of the well and that's the that's the that's the argument I'm I'm putting forth here is that you know people look at this and say, if you can't lose your salvation, yeah, wouldn't that mean that if these people were saved, you can live like hell to use your one of your colloquialisms um and still be saved? Like and I like I don't think that bears out in scripture.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, I yeah, I mean even in this text, the point is that he's bearing fruit, not like thorns and thistles, right? So the the seed that uh you know the ground that receives the seed and is producing fruit is not producing a bunch of garbage. Uh, I feel like that should speak loud enough for itself as is, but uh I don't know. I mean, maybe somebody thinks to themselves, yeah, they received a seed and that means they're good to produce garbage, but I don't yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I think it's interesting that um Isaiah six is what's invoked here because when um the Lord sends Isaiah in Isaiah six, he tells them he wants to send them to a wicked people um to pound them with the word, like irritate them with it so that they would be ever seeing but never perceiving, ever hearing and never understanding. Like he's like, go ahead and just spread the seed so far that they don't care anymore. You know, and I think um I think when I when I look at our our you know, the landscape today, there's a ton of people who are inoculated to Christianity.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean we we've talked about this before, but this this country is very post-Christian. Um I I don't think it's as post-Christian as places like certain places in Europe, but we're we're at a serious risk of of people just reaching the point of not caring so much so that's I'm hearing Phantom of the Opera in my head right now. Oh, well past the point of no caring. Oh, okay, yeah, there you go. Yeah. So I thought that's where you were going. I I'm not actually a a big Phantom of the Opera. Fred, were you there with me? Thank God. I can't believe I sang on the podcast. Man, sorry guys. Yeah, well, I'm sure it'll sound good listening at two times speed, not later.
Revivalism Without Discipleship Costs
SPEAKER_02Maybe, maybe, maybe.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Uh or or we'll go to half speed for that section.
SPEAKER_02There was a there was a country. I'm trying to think exactly where it was, where these um these uh tent revivals were going through. You know, revivalists were going through one of the they had this massive revival where I'm trying to think how many people came to Christ, but it was like a small country, and it was basically like the whole country came to Christ in a weekend. You know what I mean? Just everybody. No discipleship, no churches planted, nothing, just tent revivals, and then they all left. And that is, I think it's the most atheistic country in the world now. Like it's just everybody's like, nah, that's not a thing. God doesn't I just think to myself, what is the cost of um, what is the cost of, you know what I mean, casting seed without discipleship, or what's the what's the cost of uh going and sharing the gospel but refusing to create community where you can actually raise those kids? Yeah. You know, I just I think there's something to that. And I think um even looking back at guys like Billy Graham and some of these massive revivalists who came through it, look, God did some amazing things. I'm glad people got saved. I think a ton of it was real. Um, I do wonder sometimes like if the goal was just save as many as we possibly can, and we hope that they get figured out along the way, you know what I mean? But they don't ever get connected to a church, they don't find a place to go, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_03Like they I mean, I would almost make the argument that this parable bears that out anyway, is you're you've got four different types of soil anyway, and so you have a big old revival. Even if you have four hundred people profess saving faith, yeah, you've maybe got a hundred of those if if it's you know that actually that actually have regenerated harm.
SPEAKER_02The irony of it is that the person who actually is saved produces a hundredfold. So it it almost immediately reverses the conundrum. Okay. You know what I mean? Like at least then it's at least at face value. You know, there's something real that happens there. Um but I I do think, yeah, looking at some of what happened, I just I wonder if the you've heard people say Christianity is a relationship, not a religion. You know, I've seen the shirt. Yeah, and I just think uh I've heard a lot of people say that, especially here in uh East Texas where we're at now, like way more than not a thing in Colorado, but um people say that out here a lot. And I think it's the personal nature of thinking around Christianity that is actually what's killing our communities. You know, it's a me thing, it's it's yeah, I have faith. I don't know it's like I don't want to impose it on anybody else, I don't want to have to defend it. It's just this deeply personal thing. Um it's I think sometimes like when somebody says, you know, uh Christianity is a is a relationship, not a religion. To me, it sounds like an AI girlfriend. You know, it's like this thing that is very special to me that I deeply care about. And we have great dialogue, but I wouldn't introduce it to any of you. You're not gonna meet her at a party. You know what I mean? Like it's it's not actually gonna be something you can see or or involve yourself, but it's very important that you know it's it's incredibly life children. Like it's weird. It's a weird way to think about and look, there is a sense in which Christianity is deeply personal. It is a rel. I'm not saying it's not there that there's not a relationship, but it is a religion in that it's a set of beliefs, things we obey, things that we despise, things that we agree on, and how that happens in community.
SPEAKER_03Well, I mean, like take take a marriage. A marriage is explicitly a relationship between those two people.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but a marriage that is so insular and like a married couple that isn't willing to talk to and reach out and build community with with other people, like a marriage that is disconnected from community itself uh almost eliminates what a marriage is, which is the coming together of two sets of families to create a new family and produce offspring and participate in community, you know. Um yeah, it's it's a weird deal. Yeah, so I think about um parables like this. What I was gonna say discipleship is really important. I think discipleship um reveals what soils were which soils. Uh time obviously helps as well, but I think there's something about um people who say make a declaration of faith, whatever it may be, when they come up against actually doing the things that God has called them to do, that's when you're gonna find out if it was real or not. Yeah, you know what I mean? And fake faith is that which says, Oh, yeah, I I had that seed once. It's totally fine. We're good. I got it. Yeah, yeah. I don't know where it is now, you know what I mean? But Jesus makes it pretty clear, John. Like if you believe what I say and do it, then you'll know the truth and the truth will set you free. You know what I mean? Those who love me will obey my word. Yeah, right. I think there's this level of what are you doing to produce fruit with the seed that you have that shows you rather quickly. And I'm gonna bring this up this Sunday, but like one of the marks to me of mature Christianity, Casey, is how quickly you will do the thing God is telling you to do. Like, how fast will you say yes to Jesus and actually do the thing? And I I think this is one of those great revealers of the heart, you know what I mean, is what did you do with the word of God? And um, yeah, I think for a lot of people it's like, oh, totally, I'm all in, and then immediately not, because they don't actually care. There's not anything said in there. There's lies that steal stuff away. I'm trying to think which one talks about the birds of the the sky coming and snatching them up. Matthew. Okay, yeah, yeah. Matthew, Mark, and Luke all talk about this. But um, yeah, I think uh I think it's an interesting text, and and what's funny to me about this text, too, man, is that so many people love to think through what this text may mean and neglect the fact that Jesus literally says, This is what it means, you know?
SPEAKER_03Which he also says people won't know what it means. Yeah, here's what it means.
SPEAKER_02It's a fair point. It's a fair point. It's almost like Jesus is saying, for those who have brains, let them think. Yeah.
unknownYeah.
Vine And Branches: Fruit Or Cut Off
SPEAKER_03Well, you you bring up John. I think the another thing in John that I think kind of ties into this is the the um parable the vine and the branches. Yeah. Um, and uh the pruning that God the Father is going to do to the brine the vine so that you bear fruit. Yeah. If you are part of the brine the the brine, I keep the brine. If you are part of the brine.
SPEAKER_02Now we're making corned beef. Yes. Delicious. Maybe that's what the AI, you know, um, you know, data centers are soaked in. It's a brine. It's a it's a it's a metabrine, you know, or uh metabrine.
SPEAKER_03The metabrine. The primordial Meta brine.
SPEAKER_02Meta brine. So to speak. It's just being marinated late life. Yes. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Okay. Sorry. Yeah. So Vine of the Branches in in um John chapter 15. Yeah. It's slightly different.
SPEAKER_03It's it's somewhat z similar. The the reason I I kind of want to tie it together is is because you've like going back to that same idea of like, well I'm I'm I'm safe but you know I don't have to do those good works. Like bro, if you were part of the vine, um you're going to be pruned and you're going to bear fruit. Yeah. Like to to your point about obedience quickly.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Like it would be weird for you to say I don't need oxygen anymore. Yeah. Right? It would be a little yeah hold your breath. Let me know how that works. I mean that's the whole vine and branches illustration is everything that you need for life comes from that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02It would be impossible for you to neglect the thing itself that gives you life and then continue on in any kind of fruitful way. You can fake it for like 30 seconds. You know what I mean? I don't know. How what's the I don't know what is it 30 minutes, you know? The longest time anybody's ever held their breath. I don't know. It can't be that long.
SPEAKER_03It can be something like seven minutes. Yeah. Man, I don't seven minutes and then brain death.
SPEAKER_02I don't know. My my point would be uh this would be um an impossible thing to do. And if you think 30 minutes is is a great feat, um, it's a a blip in the radar of time itself. It's nothing at all. But there is a reality where people want to reject um the fundamental, you know I mean reality of who they are. They're created in the image of God, that there are commands that God has told us how to live, what is supposed to look like the way that things are supposed to function. And a lot of people just want to ignore reality outright. Yeah. And in doing so you're severing yourself from the very source of life and what Christ has called you to.
SPEAKER_03Your point is that these people are trying to it's the whole argument of of um where you're sprouting up like that I had that saving faith but I'm not saying the fruit but I'm still saved. Like just a lie. Exactly it's a lie. Like um my brain is doing some ping pong to other pastors I think of Esau who sought it with tears and could not find it. And like I think of you know when people say they're Christian and yet come to find out they're living in horrific sin patterns. Like when you see I just want to graciously and kindly ask those people how do you sleep at night you little jerk like take for example um we've talked about some church fathers uh or not church uh like um theologians who have um fallen away from faith or who have have come out to have significant moral character issues. Yeah yeah um and yet God still used them um and we see some fruit in some areas but we see a tightly held grip on sin patterns in others and like bringing it down from those like church theologians and like people we would consider to be and that one's that one's harder for me because I think some people are legitimately don't care and living like an entirely different life.
SPEAKER_02I think some people are more like David who just are stupid and sin and then try to cover it up and I wouldn't immediately be like well clearly that guy's not saved. Yeah. No look Christians still do stupid things and still sin. 100% hopefully we just have the wherewithal to call it sin repent and trust God and walk through those things which is kind of the whole point of church discipline and that
Church Discipline And Real Accountability
SPEAKER_02that whole process.
SPEAKER_03I guess that that begs the question um the the point about repenting and turning away from that um would you say someone who professes Christianity but has significant repent unrepented sin that they continue to live in would would that be at what point would you say yeah maybe you're you're not saved?
SPEAKER_02Yeah I mean that's kind of the the point of church discipline or at least the beginning process of dealing with those things is to confront uh sin that's not being dealt with and if it's still not being dealt with a couple of people are supposed to talk with that person and help them see the air of their ways and what's going on and if at that point it doesn't work they're brought before uh pastors or elders and hey this is what's going on if that person still is like yeah no I'm doing what I want then you're to treat him as though he is an unbeliever which is to say um at some point if you are the authority in your life and not Christ and clearly the word of God is coming up against whatever is going on that you've come to believe or or or walk in it's the church's responsibility to let you know that you're actually outside of the faith or to treat you that way until you get your act together this is important. I think this is really what the Bible is getting at in Matthew when he's talking about the disciples being handed the keys to the kingdom what they bind on earth will be bound in heaven what you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. I think it's in Matthew 18 might be part of 16 as well um but this whole idea that there's an authority that's given to the church uh with regard to what God has said that is binding or at least clarifying or revealing what God's will is here. Yeah and I think that's that's important. I mean that's a that's a big deal. I I would say Catholics are going to say this is according to the the to the magistrate or the magisterium you know what I mean um uh Protestants are gonna say this is accord to according to the the way that um uh we exercise the word of God through the church but uh even even in the prayer you know we're two or more gathered you know there I am amongst you it's not talking about um God's presence being there in prayer it's making the point that where um where people are coming together in agreement about what God's word is and somebody is outside of that God is there making the decision with you to expel that person who needs to go who refuses to obey and walk in the commandments that that they've received.
SPEAKER_03So I think um it's funny that that specifically reminds me of um I I can't accredit this quote to the person who originally gave it because I don't remember but it's talking about the death penalty and it's we're not casting judgment on their guilt.
SPEAKER_02We know that their sin is so great that we're sending it to a higher court Rush Duny yeah Rushdie RJ Rushdone that we'll send them up to a higher court to decide their fate. Yeah yeah I thought it's fantastic.
SPEAKER_03It's a it's a great a great line.
SPEAKER_02Yeah but clearly there's a there's a reality where when somebody is not walking in a manner worthy of the calling that they've received they're doing it in an ongoing way that's evident to others that the Bible is saying call a spade a spade. Yeah clearly something is not right there and we're to treat them as an unbeliever until there's actual repentance going on with regard to whatever that sin pattern was or problem was. What's hard is that I think a lot of times historically especially Christians are as a group of people who are known for being forgiven we're pretty terrible at forgiving others people make mistakes and do stupid things and our favorite thing to do is crucify people. Yeah I hate to say it I hate to say I'm like especially with pastors or people that make mistakes and look the Bible says that leaders are going to be judged more strictly like I I get it.
SPEAKER_03But there's also a side of me that it's like man you'd think we'd be more gracious and happy to accept people back in and help them walk through stuff after they've repented and done things and sometimes I feel like our yeah Christians are the are the quickest to do to Jesus what the world did you I mean you take you take a pastor who um cheats with the wife of one of his elders then gets his elder killed and then uh uh hides a pregnancy and you're like that guy's never leading a church and that's like what about David definitely yeah yeah it's like not saved worst person ever yeah the rise and fall of of David Hill I mean Marshill I mean King David I mean you know yeah but it's that it it is that kind of um so you talking about this um church discipline yeah um how do you fix that uh maybe that's too big of a question how do you address that um on a denominational level because like as a church um king's banner we we are willing to put three people through church discipline when it's required yeah there are entire denominations that won't yeah I think they're not churches I mean like it literally is supposed to be one of the marks of what a church is is to herald the word of God to to work through the ordinances themselves of baptism and communion and to practice church discipline.
SPEAKER_02Those are like the three things that actually make a church a church you know at the at the core of what it is you know so there's a lot of you're punting on that one yeah that's pretty bad.
SPEAKER_03Well I mean I I've been to those churches where there's a lot of love a lot of grace and and praise God for that but there's like no accountability. When it comes to accountability people get squeamish.
SPEAKER_02So so think about it this way a lot of churches are coming out of the tent revival esque type movements right our even churches today are more of um modeled after like an entertainment type of culture and so it kind of makes sense that where you don't have membership Sundays are more like a tent revival that you don't plan on discipling or walking with people which means church discipline only happens when it was so evident and clear in front of any but everyone that something had to be done. Yeah. Um yeah I mean that that kind of is the environment that gets created um and I don't I want to be careful because uh generally speaking church discipline is only exercise for people that are actually members of a particular church and oftentimes the larger the the church the the the less uh they'll talk about membership or have membership being a real thing a lot of places membership just isn't a thing and if we find out about something we'll do it but uh oft if you have a bunch of people coming in that don't know Jesus that just heard the gospel for the first time and you're trying to exercise church discipline well we kind of already missed some steps you know what I mean and like the are we walking with this person? Has there been disciples do they even understand that they're doing something wrong? Yeah like what well like are they saved in the first place? Are they just here hearing a message the the communities that existed in first century when church discipline and things like this could be you know could happen were communities that were living and working and doing life together and you couldn't just leave and go find another church two blocks down. It was no these people are literally connected to my livelihood and the social community that I have and oftentimes they're the groups that were keeping each other alive. Yeah you know they were literally helping sustain and walk with each other to to to flourish. So um we don't have a great equivalent for church discipline today and in a culture that increasingly is shameless it's really hard. Yeah like I wish we could bring back shame a little back yeah a little bit.
SPEAKER_03You know what I mean I think we could we could do with a a little more shame in our culture today than what's there currently it's it's funny because you'll you'll see people quoting like judge not or you know there's no there is no guilt and condemnation before Christ and it's like okay let's look at the context of what that means because there is no therefore no condemnation in Christ therefore I'm gonna sleep with my girlfriend before we're married we're gonna live together turned into uh minor attractive people really quickly didn't it you know what I mean well I mean I think the word you're looking for is pedophile yeah exactly exactly or if you're in Britain pedophile yeah well and even oh gosh okay so like the whole thing with foul cheese going on right now right you have a bunch of people trying to publicly shame someone who doesn't care because shame isn't really a social thing anymore.
SPEAKER_02Yeah like people going up and you know what is he he pleads the fifth yeah he he was asked what color his tie was and his answer was um at the advice of counsel I plead the fifth yeah that he does yeah um they're like we're just gonna want you to show up and don't say anything and everybody everybody's posting videos of people that are like what they said to oh that's good and it's like is it though it doesn't nothing is changing there's no discipline happening here there's no shame even in this process because the dude is filthy rich yeah what yeah and nothing is gonna happen he goes unless there's real consequences he got away with it so I think in our world today if you try to practice church discipline and somebody can just go to the church down the road and say that you know that church was the problem and continue doing what they're doing. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_03It's like it's uh it's kind of a maybe we need to have a database where people register as a church offender.
SPEAKER_02Well there's uh that was he's actually supposed to be kind of it's funny but but there actually is like um uh denominations try to function this capacity many churches uh even here where we're at we'll have conversations with each other if somebody comes from another church and I'm able to follow up and find out what's the status of this particular member what's going on I will because I think that's healthy and good that we should be able to help walk with people and help get them healthy and not have weirdos lurking around in congregations doing shady stuff that they shouldn't be doing. Yeah you know and we can you know I'm not saying we bring back the stocks but when shady people do shady things there should be real consequences. And um unfortunately in our world today everybody wants to hide and especially and again if your relationship is that yeah what we're talking about right the AI Jesus thing yeah then nobody there is no accountability it's just me and my you know personal Jesus and it's like whoever that is I don't know if it's this I don't know if you realize but community is supposed to be part of what you're doing.
Judgment For Hearing Without Doing
SPEAKER_02Yeah but back to the the kind of the idea of the sower what you do with the word of God tells me whether or not it's real in your life. And for a lot of people the story of the sower they want it to be a series of sanctifying moments where eventually I get to a place where the seed gets there. But actually the story is a bunch of people who simply did nothing with the word of God meaning I didn't take it and allow it to get into me to where it was producing fruit. Yeah. But it was snatched away destroyed whatever before it had the ability to do anything from or through that person. Yeah. What you do with the word of God is simply the clearest communication about your relationship with it. You know and and I think uh if if there's no other message you get from the sewer it's that what you do with God's word tells me everything I need to know about your relationship with Jesus. Yep. And I think that pisses people off. Yeah you know like how dare you say something like that. Well let's be honest like I if if you love Jesus you're gonna do what he tells you to do and I'll be the first to say sometimes that's really hard sometimes it's very frustrating and uncomfortable and not expedient not convenient whatever.
SPEAKER_03I mean we have several places despite the fact that um there there's the grace through grace you're saved not of yourself is a gift to God so no one could boast okay what's the next passage for your Christ work friendship prepare which created in Christ Jesus prepared good works that he prepared for you to do um faith without works is dead.
SPEAKER_02Well like I think in our world today there's this belief that like I can stand in front of a machine that will like blast seeds just all around me. You know I'll have them caught up in my hair in my ears and that's the same as them growing because I'm surrounded by it. You know and um that's kind of what like I said he was saying in Isaiah 6 go ahead be you know be which so they would be ever hearing and never your point about Isaiah 6 ever hearing goes again to Jesus's joke about he who has ears let him hear. Yeah like it's it's a joke it's a very very well laid well well done Jesus yeah there's a there's there's just this reality where I think one of the ways that God judges people or brings judgment to people it is ultimately by telling them the truth and telling them loving them well enough with the truth that they literally go their own direction and do something else. You know and it's it's God's wrath right giving people what they want but there is a reality where if you have been around the word of God and heard it and done nothing with it, the judgment for you is far more severe. Yeah. You know, because you you've heard you've been entrusted with you got these things you know at a at a different degree than anybody else did. I think for people who grew up in a more or less Christian area or uh you know with a uh Christian influence all around them and went a different direction. Um I think that's when the Bible would say things like woe to you like it's it's gonna be it's gonna be a lot worse for you on the day of judgment than other people who didn't get the same privileges that you did to the gospel. Yeah. And the second part of that is the Bible tells us that we're to be watchmen, right? Ezekiel 14 um talks about the reality that we're to share with people. Now obviously this was a specific ministry given to Ezekiel but the principle remains as the messenger who's been given a message from God he says if I give you a word you know what I mean about these people and their destruction and what's coming and you tell them and they don't listen then their blood's on their hands. But if you go and you don't say anything to them and they go out and do it then their blood's on your hands because you were supposed to be the one that was supposed to warn them.
SPEAKER_03So say this oh go ahead goes to the other side of this is are what looking at the parable of the sower um what does that mean for those of us who are trying to build disciples and plant those seeds like what what is the what is incumbent upon us?
Make Disciples Not Drive By Converts
SPEAKER_03Is it just scattering seed? Like where does that take it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah I think um I think in general our hope would be to stay long enough to cultivate fruit you know if there's no fruit with somebody then you kick the dust off your sandals and you keep rolling but I would say stay long enough to see fruit and if you are just consistently not seeing fruit something's wrong. There are some exceptions to this I think one thing that drives me crazy in the Bible is in Acts chapter eight with the story of Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch all right like guy walks next to him shares the Bible with him talks to him shows him that it's Jesus from the Old Testament guy gives his life to Christ he baptizes him and then God literally transmutes Philip to another area entirely didn't even have a chance to walk with him. Yeah. All right and that was God's doing so I'm not up here like God did it wrong. Yeah I do think there's a reality where when Christ says we're to make disciples that doesn't mean we're to give people a drive by guilting. Yeah I don't think that means we're supposed to just share the gospel with them and that's sufficient. I actually think that's insufficient. Yeah even the people that Jesus walked with he walked with for years talking communicating sharing his life with Jesus didn't do like these little isolated incidences. Everything was connected to the lifestyle he was living in the way that he was communicating to everyone around him all the time. And I think as Christians our goal shouldn't be ultimately to share the gospel. I think the goal should be to make disciples and I would say this goes even farther. I think we're supposed to disciple to convert not convert to disciple Jesus didn't walk around and start by having everyone pray a prayer before they could follow him. Yeah. You know come follow me. They did okay do you think they understood everything right off the bat no I think a lot of them were figuring out along the way what this actually looks like what it means what's supposed to happen. And I don't think everybody in your group that you're walking with or that's going to church totally gets all of it right away. Back to the church discipline conversation this person even understand what's happening? Yeah. What's going on? Are they you know are they even saved yet before we're trying to walk through the process of treating them like an unbeliever well maybe they already are an unbeliever and you need to just do a better job of treating them like an unbeliever. Yeah. But I think we're supposed to walk with people until we begin to see that transformation in them. It's um you know I don't know how long into but at least a year or something before Peter makes the declaration that he's the he's the Christ he's the son of God you know um he didn't start there. No God revealed that to him along the way and I I think for us when we think about making disciples you know scattering seeds the environments we find ourselves in the goal should be disciple people to get them there. Don't try to convert people and then disciple them afterwards the whole process front to back is walk with people make disciples be like Jesus and uh if people outright reject the word then it will stand against them and their blood is on their own hands. But don't be the person who rolls around preaching from the sidewalk you know what I mean then refusing to actually walk with anybody when they're ready to receive something like that. We want to help them bear fruit and that's it's important. So hope that helps.
SPEAKER_03Yeah I think that was good.
SPEAKER_02All right all right well go read uh the parable and get after it and then especially read the part where Jesus explains it. And hopefully you have no confusion about this in the future go with God. Have a great week guys
