King's Banner Podcast
Welcome to King's Banner Podcast. We got tired of the same ole answers when we started looking for help when it came to our walks with God. So together we go deeper than most would on topics that most people have heard or were taught but never fully understood. It is our way of simplifying concepts that we may have over complicated throughout our lives. Bringing theology and life experience into each episode. It is our hope and desire to help you in your Christian walk.
King's Banner Podcast
Biblical Justice
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A father lures his daughter’s rapist to the house and shoots him. A CEO gets killed and people argue about whether it’s “justice.” Cameras go up on street corners and we’re told it’s for “safety.” If you’ve felt the pressure to say, “Fine, I’ll take matters into my own hands,” you’re not alone, and that’s exactly the tension we tackle here.
We work through the biblical difference between self-defense and vigilantism, why that line matters, and how quickly “justice” can become revenge once our emotions take the wheel. We dig into Romans 13, the idea that God gives the state the sword, and why that doesn’t mean Christians obey every law blindly. We also talk sphere sovereignty, tyranny, and what faithful resistance looks like when rulers stop rewarding good and start punishing it.
From there, we get practical and uncomfortably current: police sting operations, flock cameras, AI mistakes, and the freedom versus security bargain that keeps expanding. We compare the impulse to be Batman or the Punisher with the harder biblical call to pursue ordered justice, not chaos. We also explore the doctrine of the lesser magistrate, why local leadership matters, and why building strong communities can be a real strategy instead of a hopeless retreat.
If this conversation helps you think more clearly about biblical justice, Christian political theology, and the ethics of resistance, subscribe, share it with a friend, and leave a review so more people can find it. What do you think is the real line between justice and vengeance?
Justice, Vigilantism, And A Broken World
SPEAKER_01Hey guys, welcome to King's Banner Podcast. Today we're going to be talking about justice um and you know some some other topics that really have to do with that that grind my gears, and I think there's a lot of men out there that uh it you know it grinds their gears too.
SPEAKER_00There you go. A lot of gear grinding.
SPEAKER_01There's a lot of gear grinding drives them up a wall. Yeah, well, like think about some of the guys we know um who are involved with things like White Rose Resistance, and they're just like I I don't want this topic to be just let's talk about abortion, because that's not what I'm talking about. But um the the question, what can we do in the face of something like abortion or or true biblical injustice is heavy on my heart. Yeah, yeah. It's a difficult topic. Yeah, um vigilantism, you could say, has to do with some of this, but yeah but then you delve into things like um things that are really really evil, like that guy that got smoked in in New York because he's the head of a of a healthcare company.
SPEAKER_00Like that's not okay. I just heard uh a story here in Texas about um gosh, some some crazy guy that got killed for some ridiculous reasons as well. Yeah, it's uh it's a weird time to be alive when we're watching everybody have an opinion about what justice is. Uh everybody seeming to know deep down what real justice is, and everybody almost wanted to just burn things down and start over instead. It's a crazy, it's a crazy season.
SPEAKER_01The difference between doing what's right and being blackpilled.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. Hard hard line to draw sometimes, man. Can be. Yeah. You look around, you see what's going on, and you get why God flooded the world. You know what I mean? Shh. Can't say amen. The great flush. Yes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Wow, what a royal flush that was. All right. So so hit me. What do you what are you thinking about here? Like, what are some of your questions? So, like, what do we how do we fix the world? Is that what you're asking?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you know, so okay, let's start with this.
A Father’s Trap And Justice
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, I read a post just the other day, okay, like two days ago, about uh a father who um got his 11-year-old daughter's phone, pretended to be her, lured her rapist to their house and shot him. Like, yeah. Is that wrong?
SPEAKER_00You know? Um it's an interesting question, all right. I think everybody deep down knows actually there's something sort of correct about that. Yeah. Um but he's gonna more than likely go to prison. Probably. Yeah. There are probably good reasons to go to prison. There are definitely good reasons to go to prison. Yeah. I think if we're asking the question biblically, um, there's a couple of things that need to be said about it in the first place. One, when you see justice breaking down in a lot of different places, and when we're seeing uh people convicted for you know using the N-word, and then people stabbing people on trains, you know, for and getting off scot-free. Yeah, like the it's crazy. And I think people begin to say, okay, I'm just gonna take things into my own hands, then if nobody's gonna do anything about this. And that actually doesn't solve the problem, that kind of adds to the chaos. Now, I would say this there's always a biblical uh right to defend yourself and your family. And regardless of whether uh a government says you're allowed to defend your family or not, you're allowed to defend yourself and your and your family. Um so just that's for free. Um in this in this particular circumstance, what you're talking about, I would say it's probably wrong in that um in that we should not be the ones who are taking justice into our own hands unless that person is going out of their way to do something. So if that guy comes over to the house under his own volition trying to do something shady, that's one thing. You intentionally going out of your way to lure somebody into a trap and then destroy them is kind of jacked up. The reason I say this is for the same reason that like um I think uh I think uh police vehicles, you know, uh being placed undercover and then setting speed traps for people is a little bit jacked up. You know, if you got to hide from somebody to protect and serve them, it feels a little shady to me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you know what I mean? Well, at that point, the police work you're talking about isn't protect and serve, it's uh end of the month quotas.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Look, here's what I would say God has given the government the sword to enact justice.
Romans 13 And The Sword
SPEAKER_00All right. So, like, let's Romans 13. Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore, whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinances of God, and they have opposed, uh, and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have a fear, uh no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same, for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword for nothing, for it is a minister of God and an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. Okay. He says then, therefore it is necessary to be subject uh in subjection, not only because of the wrath, uh, but also for conscience' sake. Here's what I would say. Um, let me read the next part too. For because of this you also pay taxes, rulers or servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing, render to all what is due them tax to whom tax is due, custom to whom custom, fear to whom fear, honor, doom honor. Um, okay, that's probably good to start with. Yeah. The government's job is to wield the sword. When I say government, I mean the state. Uh there's uh we've done a couple of podcasts on Kyperian sphere sovereignty and the idea that there are different realms of authority uh given by God to different places in life, and they're not supposed to try to take up authority that belongs to a different area. Yeah. So when somebody takes justice into their own hand in an offensive manner rather than in a defensive manner, um that that's problematic. Then you're then you're walking into vigilanteism, which I think the Bible actually condemns and says is not a good thing. This particular circumstance sounds like he was catfishing a pedo, you know? And there's kind of a maybe there's some gray area a little bit, but I think luring luring a criminal in by pretending to be something you're not, I don't I don't know. I don't know. It's a little weird.
SPEAKER_01I mean, but when if the police do it, then it's considered good police work.
SPEAKER_00I I agree that that's also wicked, uh, for the same reason that I think flock cameras are wicked. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01Like I think there is a so I I actually I've heard these flock camera things a lot recently. I have not followed what what's going on?
Surveillance Cameras And Freedom Tradeoffs
SPEAKER_00So there is there there are cameras being placed all across the United States with the original stated intent of the cameras to be to basically follow up on traffic stuff. And it has been used for tons of other reasons. Ultimately, it is a giant surveillance thing going on where people are setting up cameras in all kinds of different places and using them to um uh using them basically to monitor an entire state, nation, area, whatever. And uh people feel like it's a massive invasion of privacy to be watching everyone all the time in the event that somebody might be guilty and then we catch them. It not only that, but it's um several things have happened where the flock cameras have been wrong and people have been like arrested and different things like that. And they didn't actually do anything wrong, it was just what we thought because of well the the AI's you know the flock cameras couldn't be wrong. So um it gets it gets into the conversation about uh when is when uh would you rather be free or safe? You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01Would you rather, you know, well there's there's the old the old um I think I have a meme from when Obama was in office when he basically said something like in order to to have you know the security we need, we might need to give up a little bit of freedom. And then it was juxtaposed with I think Benjamin Franklin or Thomas Jefferson who says a man who is willing to give up a little bit of freedom for a little bit of security will lose both.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, I think that's absolutely right. If you ever, you know, read any dystopian novel, yeah, what you see is a bunch of people taking rights from other people under the guise of uh of you know safety. You know what I mean? Eventually they they just never get those rights back and never get the privacy back, and the totalitarian nonsense stays there. Yeah. I say a lot of this to say um governments are given by God, uh, Augustine called them a necessary evil. You know what I mean? Why? Because they're ran by people, yeah. But there is an it's an institution created by God to ultimately defend and protect um its uh the the the public, the general public that it's overseeing. Um this does not mean that whatever governments say, Christians are just supposed to do. No. That's not it. We wouldn't say that they are uh divine authority and that whatever they do, God's the only one that can judge them. We would say that they are supposed to um defend and enforce righteousness. And to the level that they're doing that, you should obey, you should be helpful, and you should be subject to them. Where they are disobeying God, you should not obey and go out of your way to not do it. This is why guys, like John Knox famously said, resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. Yeah, we are supposed to, when wickedness is being um you know put into laws and enforced, uh, go ahead and be okay with being an enemy of the state. Yeah, most of the disciples, I think all of the apostles died as enemies of the state, and that's important to know, right? Christ was murdered by a state system, or at least the state system was used at the time. Yeah. So some people like to quote Romans 13 and basically make it the statement of whatever the government says, you have to go along with it. No, no, no, no, no. It's prescribing to governments what they're supposed to do and describing to us what it's supposed to look like when they're actually enforcing the things that they're supposed to. Am I the person that's going to be able to get into the the nuts and bolts of every law and be able to tell you exactly what should be done? No. Um, I can give you biblical perspective. I do think that um luring people, you know, based on their sin patterns into sin is probably Satan's work and not a Christian's work. Um you can push back if you want to for the same reason that I think we're seeing um we're seeing the government do that to people. And I I think it's wrong. It's a little bit minority reportish. You know what I mean? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But I I mean the the pushback there is is okay. Um let's take the police sting instance uh here. Um yeah. So like if you're selling alcohol underage or something, no, no, well, like like if they're if they're catfishing a catfishing a pedo. Okay. Because I've seen videos of like police operatives actually doing this. Yeah. Um and it's not just someone who has these inclinations, it's someone who's already done these things. How would you know? Oh, they've been convicted by it.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so following up on people who have already been convicted for these particular I don't think that's what's happening 90% of the time. Uh a lot of it's I'm assuming it's they're just putting this stuff out, trying to catch people who are doing shady.
SPEAKER_01Trying to catch certain, like there are certain people who are targeted because there's reports of things happening, but there's no evidence.
SPEAKER_00This seems to be again, this is one of those areas where it's like the details may be the devil may be in the details, but literally, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um but you know, ultimately, like everybody loves Batman.
SPEAKER_02Like, we love that's your argument.
SPEAKER_01No, no, no. I'm butt bat. I'm you're not wrong. I love Batman. I'm trying to pull a more a more grand example here, like that we can come to.
SPEAKER_00Like I think that governments should be aware of what's going on. I think that they should be delivering justice. I think people should be innocent until proven guilty. And I think that it is not the job of the government to set up unnecessary temptation to try to bring things out of people that we will then convict them for. I actually just think that's wrong. I don't, I, you know, I get that people feel like, yeah, but you're getting these guys off the streets. I'm like, right, you're also creating the crime. You know what I mean? And a lot of times, uh even some of these sting operations, it's like the the government goes in and will set something up to create a job to get people to join this particular job, and then can the people who jumped onto the job that the government started in the first place, you're creating, you're creating the very circumstances, and then your argument then becomes, yeah, but they probably would have done it when another bad guy came along. And it's like, one, you don't actually know that that is the case, two, that you but at this point, you are the reason for the problem, and then you are punishing them for the thing that you set up in the first place. Yeah, if you raised your kids this way, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, something could be very wrong. I get what you're saying. I think I think it's more to the case of when it's when it's targeting someone and catching someone who's already known to have done something. Like I like the example of the father who who trapped, intrapped his daughter's rapist. It wasn't someone who was coming after, it was someone who had already raped her.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Like uh, what's this what's the story?
SPEAKER_01Like he he took her phone, pretended to be her, lured him over, and oh, the guy that we're talking about right that wasn't that wasn't police action, that was an individual.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so girl's been raped. Yeah, there isn't justice.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like and so I guess the question here is all right, but what happens when the government abdicates the sword?
SPEAKER_00And look, let me let me go here with you too. Like in um in biblical law, if something shady like that happened, they take the person out of town and they stone them. Yeah, and the first people to throw the stones were the family members involved, like they were involved in the justice that happened. Yeah, so I'm not saying that shouldn't be the case. I think that very sh that very much should be the case. I think that in the um the area of defending your family, that's a good thing within reason. I think if you can get the state involved, you should get the state involved. I think if um the police are not doing a great job, I think I would take every other action I possibly could rather than catfishing somebody and taking justice into my own hands. I just think I would. Now, if somebody rapes my daughter, um, I think I'm gonna go to absolute war to try to get the state to do what it's supposed to do. And if justice is deferred in that instance, I don't know that that then makes me the person who gets to dish out justice. In the moment, getting to defend and protect, that's one thing. Yeah. After it's already done, this is a judicial problem now that needs to be taken care of. And I don't know that um anybody, if they feel the state has done a poor job, then just gets to go out and take justice into their own hands. It's not a great, it's not a biblical solution. It's not a so it's not a solution it really at all. I think it's a recipe for the Wild West and for chaos. And I know something in us as men wants to be like the guy that takes justice into his own hands and goes and does something. There's something about that, especially the black pilled side of us, that is like, I'm on board, that's what I want to do. But I think that's why God entrusted governments with this responsibility. Because if everybody does, things go south in a hurry, and there is no real standard of justice at that moment. It's I am the judge, jury, and executioner. Yeah. And um, and I I'm gonna put this forward. I think the vigilanteism uh that we've primarily seen in the last, I don't know, uh, let's say 10 years especially, has been from the left. It's been a group of people who decide this person is wrong and somebody needs to do something about it. Growing violence on the left is just um it's like a real problem.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think the right thinks a lot of that vigilantism. Because the the idea with vigilantism is it's seeking justice outside of law.
SPEAKER_00The left is taking justice into its own hand with its own definition of justice.
SPEAKER_01Like a lot of these these instances where the left is committing this violence, it's not against someone who's done something unjust. It's for somebody who in your opinion. Well, but like you see what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_00I see what you're saying, but I think that I think there is a gray area, but I think there's more a vigilante uh is somebody who is a government unto themselves. Okay. I'm currently deciding what is just and what is not just, and I'm making the decisions, even about what
When Justice Becomes Vengeance
SPEAKER_00should be done. You ever watched the um oh, I don't even know if I can I probably can't recommend it, but there's this part in The Godfather where he goes to the Godfather and this guy talks about these guys who who um uh beat up his daughter, and he's like, I well, he's like, What do you want me to do for you? He says, I want all of them killed, I want justice. And he says, That's not justice. He says, You're not asking for justice. She's still alive. You want them dead. That's not justice. But that is, I think it's a great picture of the heart of a person, which is I want to reciprocate way worse. If somebody does something to me, I'm gonna take this into my own. Those guys should get, you know what I mean? Emotions get caught up in things. I'm even I gotta teach on Judges chapter 21 this week. Yep. Um, and you have this horrible story in Judges chapter 20, where this concubine gets murdered uh and raped, and the entire people of Benjamin did this horrible thing. So the people of Israel then come in and they basically wipe Benjamin off the map. Yeah, like 600 people left is all they have left. Immediately afterwards, they're like, we just destroyed our own family. We just wiped our own people off the map, like uh, and they go through this process of trying to put a band-aid on just a fatal wound. Yeah, you know, and I think there's a there's a picture in there of what happens when um what happens when people try to take justice into their own hands. There's there's a lot of malice and anger and pride mixed up in what's going on, and it's no longer justice, it's vengeance, yeah, right? Justice God gives tells us to uphold. Vengeance actually belongs to him. Vengeance is mine, says the Lord. I will repay, right? Um, that's that's a different thing. I I think um the the reformers over the last thousand years, but especially the last um, you know, five, six hundred years, something, try to work through a lot of these things because Christians have historically found themselves in a lot of really crappy situations. What you don't read in the Bible is all of the disciples taking up swords, rallying all the Christians that got saved and going to war against Rome. That's true. Even when they were being murdered and put to death, they were not putting troops together, mounting 50 cows. You know what I mean? That wasn't. Um, I do think there is a there's a reality where um we can get to some of that, but at its very basis, our goal should first be uh rebellion to wickedness in our obedience to God and continuing what he has called us to do in sharing the gospel, loving people, doing the things that Christ has called us to do, and suffering the way Christ suffered. In fact, this is the statement throughout history is um that you know, this kind of the blood of the martyrs is the seat of the church. Every wherever Christians are killed, it seems that the gospel continues to go forth and grow when God uses these things. Um even in the garden, right? You see Peter cut the guy's ear off, and Jesus is like, no, man, put the sword away, puts his ear back on. There's something in there that is important. Here's the other thing that I would say um where you can resist evil and wickedness, you should, but you should do it by supporting a godly government system or a godly magistrate that has been ordained by God. All right. So when you had all these wars going on with Protestants and Catholics and all these different things, they the the reformers developed something called the doctrine of the lesser magistrate.
The Lesser Magistrate Strategy
SPEAKER_00Um, this was used by uh Theodore Beza uh a lot. Um John Knox, some of this, yeah, books like uh Vindicciae Concerto. Ranos, which is trying to put this forth, um, uh Lex Rex, the law and the king, uh, these mentalities of like, right, but what do we do when you're under oppression and we have an entire system where we have a, let's say, a Christian ethic, and then suddenly it's just being overrun with this or that. What do you actually do? And their idea is okay, so if God instituted government to uphold justice, and let's say at the highest levels it's begun to be corrupt, the thing that you should do as a Christian is find a lesser magistrate who will defend you from the wickedness that is coming down from above and uphold the standard that God has for us here. So if you find yourself in a in a situation where things are shady and things are going wrong, the goal would be well, let's find a lesser magistrate, let's rally people to that person, and let's function within this capacity here under the defense of what is righteous, and then we'll go to war with that um uh along with that lesser magistrate against whatever tyrannical nonsense is there. But this keeps people from becoming a um a government unto themselves, electing themselves as uh as the new supreme leader. You know what I mean? The second something goes south. We you know, if the doctrine of the lesser magistrate was this idea that somebody can just, and now I am declaring myself, you know, governor of whatever you know area this is, and I rally people to me and we're going to war again. That's not how it works. It had to be somebody who has already at least established an authority. And the goal was to rally people to that area and help pour into, encourage, and help establish uh what was going on in that area and the justice that was being developed in that area so that they would be able to defend from that place and um when given the opportunity, if given the opportunity, even push back against the wickedness that was higher up. Okay. Um so the state system I think is supposed to simulate this at some level.
SPEAKER_01Right? I I think so. The I guess how does this what does this look like in our modern world that has become so small because technology and travel has become so easy? Like how in this country, yeah, where um which I want you I want to dig into the revolution.
SPEAKER_00We're in town in Texas right now, right? Yeah, would you say it is easier to be a Christian here in some ways, let's say in uh external expressions than it is in Denver. Oh, certainly. Right. Uh there are different candidates on the ballot here. There's a different level of adhering and fighting for, let's say, a biblical sense of justice here rather than what we would be dealing with in Colorado. It would, I think, behoove Christians to do a better job of going to places like Tyler, like these places in Texas, and establish, become a bulwark of Christians who are electing good, godly officials in a particular area and pushing out the nonsense where it's happening. I think um unfortunately, I feel like you see this with Islam all over the place. They'll find a particular pocket, they'll stick it out in that area, they'll eventually elect leaders, they create their own thing, and then soon enough they got more people on the ballot, they're running a particular area in this way, and Christians are kind of this disjointed, dysfunctional. Well, and some of our strategy for Christendom, God help us, I'm just gonna go here, has been throw a pebble into the dark, save some because it's all going to hell in the next two years. I think that is a terrible strategy. Yeah, it's not a strategy. Yeah, it's not a strategy. It is a it is um it is a plan to destroy your own future. It is selling everything that you have and punting on your family. Yeah. Um I think what sh Christians should be doing is finding solid areas that are not totally lost to the darkness, rallying around those lesser magistrates, bolstering those areas in um business and population and all the ways that we can be a blessing in those areas and a part of that community, electing officials who have been called to participate in those areas and then be uh be a part of resisting the darkness from a larger beachhead of Christians who are established in a particular area fighting for a way of life. That to me is how it should work. And then you do ministry from that place, where it's not one small patch of light being thrown into another small patch of light. It's no, we've established a large bulwark of solid, you know, Christendom in this particular area, and we're pushing back the dark from a front line that's actually very well established rather than just throwing pebbles into the lake, which is I think sometimes how we're trying to build a bridge. You know what I mean? Um so I think the the the doctrine of the lesser magistrate affirms that uh government is given by God to wield the sword, to defend God's righteousness and what he's called people to do. The government that there was this idea of what was something that was called the divine right of kings, which basically meant that um whatever the king does is from God. And the only person that's going to be able to call him out is God himself because God put him there. This is a wicked way to look at scripture. Um what we know is that the king doesn't decide what righteousness is. The king is not a um a decider of these things, he's a steward of these things. This is what he's supposed to uphold, this is what a state is supposed to take care of and defend against, and where they are aberrant in their thinking with regard to justice and righteousness, we're supposed to be uh disobedient or obedient, but our goal is not to be intentionally a pain in the butt. Our goal should be let's establish really good, godly areas, work from those places, and um find people who will stand and fight for justice, even in even if in the larger area we're not seeing those things happen. You see some of this for the record in the Bible, like you see the um this kind of civil disobey or uh uh you know righteous disobedience, if you want to call it that way. The the um in Exodus, you have the the murdering of the Hebrew boys. Oh, yeah, right, and you have the midwives who just outright lie to the pharaoh and they're like murdered before, yeah. Like it's just we're really having a hard time uh you know making this happen. You you see different people being disobedient. You see in Acts, obviously, with Peter, you know, and the whole Sanhedrin is like, you need to stop doing this. He's like, Look, we got to obey God rather than man. This is what God has called us to do. You are supposed to be defending what God has called us to do. At this moment, you're commanding us to do the opposite of what God has called us to do. We're not obeying those things. That's not what we're doing. During COVID, when the strip clubs were open and the dispensaries were open and gyms were open, but you weren't allowed to go to church. Well, the Bible tells us not to neglect meeting together. Yeah, right? So I'm going to obey the Bible. And if I get put in jail for that one, that sucks. I would should probably move to an area where there's a better, lesser magistrate who will actually uphold and defend the law. Yeah. And now we're here. Is that a call to abandon all areas that are godless? No, I think some people are specifically called to different areas, but I don't think you should expect um justice to be upheld by godless governments and godless areas. And in fact, the Bible tells us in Isaiah, especially chapter three, that wicked rulers is a form of wrath that God pours out on wicked people groups. Yeah, it's exactly you're sitting in the fullness of what we deserve at this point. Now, you this is this is the king that you've asked for, this is what you get, and he will be a scourge against you. Anyone who just wants to read through the book of judges, I really feel like this would really help you understand what that cycle looks like when these things happen. But yeah, so so vigilanteism creates a system, bro, where uh people become a government unto themselves. They end up deciding what justice is and what justice isn't. They're separated from the community itself. They're not part of uh, you can't say that that person is necessarily called by God or established by God in that particular area. And if you try to reproduce that across the board, uh let's say in a world where you have 25 Batmans, do you think they get along? I think every Batman hates the other Batman, probably, right? You know, and I I think um the God is a God of order, not a God of chaos, even though he works in the chaos to bring about order. And I wish I could say that there's a way better way to do this and yeah, go burn down that abortion mill or something, but that's just it's not within uh our Christian right to take justice in the sword into our own hand unless we are defending that which God has specifically given to us, or we are along with another magistrate, taking up arms the way that we're supposed to in a God-ordained way, which is frustrating.
SPEAKER_01It is frustrating. And you know, I can throw hypotheticals against the wind all day because like well, look, let me just let me go there with you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, one of my favorite uh like comic book people is the Punisher. Yeah. All right, yeah. There is something in me, and most good people I know that is like, yeah, let's do this thing. Nobody else is gonna do it. I'm gonna full sin. Let's go, you know, and if they kill me dying for the you know, fighting for the right thing, that's that's best case scenario, right? I I think um we have something in us that longs for justice. Yeah, that's why there's so many crime and court shows. Yeah, everybody wants to see a bad guy get cooked. You know what I mean? The problem is when culture starts deciding who the bad guys are and who the good guys are, and then those cultures who start making those decisions start putting people in places of power where they're not honoring what God said, or you have a whole group of vigilantes who are working on a whole different definition of justice and this and that. I I want to fight for God's law. Yeah, I want to fight for what God has established, and I'm aware that in different scenarios, you may be the smallest minority, and we are just working through this, trying to be uh a blessing to the place that we find ourselves
Paying Taxes Under Bad Rulers
SPEAKER_00in. I mean, the Bible clearly tells us we're supposed to pay taxes. Yeah, I wanted to get into that. So look, I'm just gonna go here with you, all right? It drives me insane. Um this is one of those areas like biblically I cannot get around because Paul tells us that we're supposed to be paying taxes, Peter tells us that we're supposed to be paying taxes. Those were governments that were actively executing Christians and in some cases burning them covered in wax at their dinner parties. So I can't say, well, if a government is funding something that is uh less than savory, I no longer have to pay taxes to that government. Because clearly at this particular time, a lot of really unsavory, terrible things were happening, and they were still like, no, we we we are in tri it's a lot like tithe. All right, and I'm just gonna go here. It's a lot like tithe because you're the goal is to give to God through the means that he has given us to give to God, as opposed to deciding whether or not I have to give to God because the means which he has given me isn't to my liking, or I think they maybe aren't doing all the things that I want to with it. Um, you are not in sin for doing what God calls you to do if somebody is not doing what God has called them, if somebody is not doing what God has called them to do with the resources that God has told you to give to them. That is a there's a there's a degree of separation there. I think where you're allowed to not give, you shouldn't, but where God explicitly tells you you are to give these resources in this area, yeah. Now look, if there's a way, if you're one of these geniuses that knows how to pay taxes in such a way that it's not funding nonsense, great, do that. And if you can find a lesser magistrate who is making sure that tax dollars go to less stupid nonsense, like oh man, what was the USA uh, you know, all the stuff that Doge was doing? Yeah, you know, you know, like this is where our dollars are going. Great.
SPEAKER_01Funding, funding trans plays in Africa. It's crazy.
SPEAKER_00It was like, yeah, the Ukraine needs condoms, you know what I mean? Like truckloads of it. Like, why are these the things that are happening? I I don't know, but what I do know is we're supposed to pray for governments, we're supposed to pray so for their salvation, we're supposed to be people of peace as far as it depends upon us. We should um be active in paying our taxes and trying to be a blessing to the area we find ourselves. I think about even the Israelites in Babylon. And he's like, be a blessing, get married, open businesses, do everything that you can. But no, you're this is not a godly society. This is a godless society, and I want you to be a blessing to it. And I think that is um that's a difficult thing because we want some utopian circumstances. But I think our goal is to be godly, defend our families, defend ourselves, and in circumstances where you have a governing official that is better, and you think doing a better job of upholding the standards that God has given them to uphold, you should go to that area, bolster that area, and use it as a bulwark to defend yourself and others and push forward light and righteousness because righteousness exalts a nation. Um, but I think the second that we step outside of the the spheres of governing rights that God has given to us and uh in the areas of our life, whether that be in the in the church, in the family, in the state itself, I think we're asking for chaos.
SPEAKER_01All right. So let's take this a step up and a step
American Revolution And Armed Resistance
SPEAKER_01back. Okay. Um the American Revolutionary War. Yeah. Let's go there. So good. Uh and not just that, but in general, looking at at what point do you see or can we as as uh as Christians see that it has gotten so bad and so broken that it's not fixable, it's time to take up arms and and build it anew, burn it down and build it anew.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so you had people in parliament who thought the revolution was well, maybe not a good thing, but the autonomy of the states was a good thing. Yeah. You had different governing officials, you had mayors, you had judges, you have uh lesser magistrates right in these particular areas, overseeing these areas who represented the will of the people in those particular circumstances, especially pertaining to what they saw was unjust or wrong. State officials in those particular areas have the right to resist what they perceive to be tyranny and uh um injustice, and those people who are with that lesser magistrate have every right to fight with that lesser magistrate against tyranny. I don't see it as a as a bad thing, a wrong thing. I think they were defending themselves from nonsense and had uh did things the right way. There were governing officials who represented their rights, and I think the justice that they were trying to walk out according to God's word, and they went and and did that.
SPEAKER_01So, what does that look like in today? Have we just not gotten even close to that?
SPEAKER_00It's a great it's a great question. Like I think uh people talk about you know Texas seceding from the union, you know what I mean? Yeah, people talk about California wanting to be its own thing.
SPEAKER_01But even the people we've picked as our lesser magistrates who are like the good guys are they will throw those suggestions out wholesale because there's just this um this fog of you can't say, you know, secession. You can't do like there's this idea that oh we can't go we can't even go there, it's not so bad.
SPEAKER_02I think you should avoid war up until it is the only thing left to do.
SPEAKER_00I um RJ Rushdone really helped me think through this.
Just War Principles And Limits
SPEAKER_00Uh he had eight principles to just war. You want to hear him real quick? I do. I feel like they were helpful. The the first one was the principle of a just cause. Like there actually has to be a good enough reason to say let's do this. And like I think uh I think a lot of people will kill each other over a sandwich. You know what I mean? Like, I I think uh some people getting hyped up and frustrated, one circumstance can create really horrible things, even like we talked about in the book of Judges. Yeah, the the the rape of this concubine, horrible thing that happened. Did it warrant an entire tribe of Israel, like I think it was 25,000 people being slaughtered? I don't I don't think so. Maybe, maybe. I I go back and read through it carefully. I know judgment is necessary. I think if things get to a certain point where everybody was involved, man, maybe some stuff needs to get done. But there has to be like a principle of just cause. The second, the the second principle he has is that it should be a last resort. Um I think that we should be doing everything that we can to not resort to shedding blood. And I think um I think well, I'm trying to think what the quote is, right? But people who haven't experienced war are stupid enough to want it. Yeah, I've seen it. Um I think people who are caught up in and have actually walked through some of those things are the last people to recommend it because once you've experienced something like that, you're not so quick to cry out for it. It also happens that when people declare war, it's not the people who declared it who are the ones that get killed, it's everybody else in the process. Um, okay, the principle of legitimate authority. War uh is just only if it is waged by a legitimate authority. Vigilante justice, gang warfare, and not God ordained means of social conduct is not war. It doesn't count that way. It's not it's not the same thing. Somebody actually has to be able have the ability and the right to say, we are actually at war with this, we're going to fight against this. Um, okay, this one's important too. The principle of a successful prospect. Like if you have no hope, so so even if it was a just cause, uh, it was a last resort, and there was a legitimate authority. If you can't win, you know what I mean? Like if it's not like a we should fight, but like, no, we're literally all of us will die doing this. It's the right thing, but we're not gonna win. Well, then that's a stupid idea. Hold hold up there though.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, go ahead. There's a lot of circumstances in the Bible that are no-win scenario. Gideon with his 300 against the thousands and thousands, like I wouldn't say those are uh no-win scenarios.
SPEAKER_00I think if you're I think if what you mean by that is um mathematically, there's no possible way we could win. That's different. That's different. I I think the question is can you actually find success in this, or is it just everybody dies? Um, I think God specifically called him to this. He rallied up a bunch of people who very much could go to that fight, and they had those people, and God made some changes along the way. And look, if you're doing things correctly and God tells you to whittle down your army and go for it, go for it. But I would say you'd better be hearing the audible voice of God in that particular uh in that particular circumstance. Um, the principle of peaceful objectives, the goal of war is ultimately to create peace, to establish peace. Christ brings a sword, but he brings a sword because he's the prince of peace. And so he's going to war with things that are set against peace itself to be able to bring peace himself. Okay. And I think a lot of people's uh object is not peace, but vengeance. It's not peace, but you know, uh uh getting their way, feeling better about it, or punishing these particular people. Um, this is the black pilled idea that we're talking about. It's not that I want things to be better, I just want wicked people to pay. You know, it's a it's a different it's a different mentality. Um, that's the fifth. I got a couple more. You ready? Yeah. Send them. The principle of proportionate means. Ultimately, what this means is that you cannot punish somebody or do to somebody else way beyond what they have done to you or the reason for the war in the first place. Uh, think about it this way punishment and crime. We would say that you know the punishment doesn't fit the crime. Uh, oftentimes in war, uh, if this is part of the big argument with like uh dropping nukes, yeah, yeah, proportional responses. Yeah, like was that 10 times the response? Response to what was done in the first place. And some people would say, well, justified it because it it saved more casualties from happening. I don't know. I don't know. But we would generally say that there has to be proportionate means whatever is done.
SPEAKER_01Just because I think uh proportionate means in in many wars past has ended up lengthening the war long past when it should have gone. Like I think of I think of like the Vietnam War and trying to be proportionate with the the all these things, and it ended up being the US losing a war that they should have won.
SPEAKER_00I think it's a I think it's a good question. All of these principles are going to be derived from biblical truths. Yeah. So when we're studying God's law and what he's prescribed to us, so much of it is look, you can't you can't put a thief to death.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You cannot punish this person at this level or this extreme. And you have to punish this person at least at this level for what they've done. Anything else, if we're talking about justice, it has to be justice. And so when you consider these people killed, let's say 2,000 of our people, and so we kill 800,000 of theirs. Yeah. Is it immediately like, oh, well, it is totally fine? I don't think so. Yeah. I don't think that's uh I think um it would be hard, it would you would be hard pressed to backen up biblically.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, and I think I think you know, you saying it the way you just did kind of puts into perspective the reason why some of this is so hard is because our justice system here, we hear about so much of it being so broken with people who shouldn't be shouldn't be in prison because they all they did was say the N-word, going get getting convicted, and people who should be in prison because they've you know committed murders and rapes and all these things getting off by way of insanity.
SPEAKER_00Like we're seeing this so broken that we yeah, and I think our tendency is to then to want to respond, but the the wrath of God doesn't produce the j or the wrath of man doesn't produce the justice of God. Yeah, right. Um the last one is the principle of civilian immunity. Yeah, the goal is that the people that are not active in this particular problem don't get to be targets.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, this is a real problem today. Um everything going on in the Middle East on every side is seems to be using the rules of war, you know what I mean, to their advantage, right?
SPEAKER_00And to somebody else's disadvantage uh by breaking them themselves, you know what I mean, making other people play by the rules. One of the difficult things for Batman is he never kills the bad guy. Yeah. Everybody wants him to kill the bad guy, you know what I mean? Everybody's like, no, kill him, or you're gonna be stuck in this cycle for the rest of your life. But it's the wrong thing. Oh, he's right, you know, like that's what makes the anti-hero's life so frustrating is that he has rules that not even he is uh you know allowed to break. Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01A couple couple things. So talking about the Middle East, yeah, um everybody on all the sides are doing some shady, crappy things. We can we can agree on that. Is it talking about the civilian casualties thing? Um I I would say let's look at Israel and Hamas, and I would say that one side is very clearly targeting civilians, and one side more than the other, is um there's only unintentional collateral damage most of the time. Uh because like you hear stories of Israel saying, hey, we're trying to hit this particular target, so they blare on loudspeakers, get out of this area because we're targeting it.
SPEAKER_00Man, like where does this go to? I gotta be, I gotta be careful here because I think anytime somebody does something right, it'll make the news. You know what I mean? And it'll be, oh, they do it the right. I think I think is messy. I think people are doing a lot of shady stuff. You know, you remember the scene in the Patriot, you know what I mean? Where it's like, don't shoot them, these men were about to surrender. You know what I mean? It's like we will never know in the heat of what's going on. Yeah, now we will never know. Yeah, I I think that tends to be the mentality, and again, this is why the idea is, man, if you can do anything other than war, do that. Yeah, right. Um, I I was trying to think who said it, right? It's um politics is war by other means. You know what I mean? It's uh it kind of is the reality of what's going on. Um, you could also say war is politics by other means. You know what I mean? Uh but but I think that the reminder here is the same that when you get caught up in these things that happen, there needs to be somebody who's been called by God specifically to wield the sword who's going to objectively say this is the lines we will cross or hold, right? These are the lines that we will not cross, this is what we're going to do. And we believe that God is on the side of the people who are who are actually going to do the things that they're supposed to do and will honor them over and above the people who are willing to break every every rule. How do I know this? Because we call the people that break all the rules wicked and evil, yeah, and we call the people that uphold the rules godly and righteous. And if righteousness is what exalts a nation, then that's what we should be shooting for. And that's how we know the lines between evil and good in these areas. And what's so hard today, even on a on a smaller level, is when you see good people get so fed up with how broken things are that they begin to start fighting like broken people and abandon their own way of doing things in the process. And uh, I think it's uh it's an incredibly difficult thing, yeah, because we want instant fixes to things that are not instant fixes. We want to fix a hundred years of drift, you know what I mean, in four years. Yeah. And it's like that's not gonna happen. You don't know that that's part of what's so sad about um the end of the book of Judges, man, is like there's three big things that they didn't do. Going into the story in the book of Judges, they got vision for what they got to accomplish, great leadership, seen miracles, got momentum. Let's go get it done. Joshua gives them the get in there, get this stuff done. Three things happen right away. They don't do what Joshua told them to do, meaning they don't get all the wickedness out that they were supposed to. They don't teach their kids about what God had done or what he called them there to do, and they allowed a bunch of stuff to stay there and corrupt them and started worshiping other gods. And then by the end of the book, they're eating themselves alive. Yeah. And I'm like, here we are in the dumpster, yeah, and dealing with these things. And and the goal shouldn't be we need to take on more attributes of the wicked. Yeah, we shouldn't fight the dumpster fire with another dumpster fire. We should be doing everything that we can to create pockets where we're putting fires out and working from those pockets to to make it uh to make it function well.
SPEAKER_01So one other thing, then you talked one of those principles was the last resort.
SPEAKER_00War is a last resort. Yeah. Um read his quote to you. Yeah, I would. In an international, uh, in international relations with tension, uh, when tensions are raised, just war he seeks to ensure peace and safety, just war um can only be waged as a last resort, requiring that all reasonable, non-violent options must be exhausted before the use of force can be justified. Even about the cities uh that threatened Israel, we read, When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it, and it shall be, if it make the answer of peace and opens unto thee, then it shall be that all the people that is found where therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee, and it will make no peace with um, and if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it. That's Deuteronomy chapter 20. He's making the point. God's command was if you go to a place, seek peace first, try to get peace. If you cannot get peace, then that's your option.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So all that in light.
Is It Too Late To Reform
SPEAKER_01When do you know if you've missed your moment? I look at When do you know it's too late? Yeah, so I look at the United States, and I don't think it's too late. But I look at Britain. And it might be for them.
SPEAKER_02What? Here's a here's a good question. What moment? Like maybe maybe here's a good way to think about it.
SPEAKER_00Are you saying when is it too lost to corruption to see it change? Is that what you're saying? Kind of, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Like when is it when is it too lost? I think man. I think these things are full of people.
SPEAKER_00I think people come and go. I think some are righteous, some are godly. I think we see cycles of good things, um, cycles of bad things, and I think it's really sad to see good things crumble, and it's really good to see bad things crumble. And I think we're constantly in this cycle of God growing his church and bringing about redemption of all things through the rise and fall of corrupt things and broken things, and their, you know, their destruction and him bringing about what he wants to in that process. I think um things like the Roman Empire, you know, we look back on and be like, the whole thing fell apart, this happened, that happened. What came out of the Roman Empire, though, was an explosion of Christianity into all kinds of different places. What we see is an absolute tragedy oftentimes. I think God uses the springboard, the will and way that he wants to bring things about. The what's funny right now, and we brought it up on the podcast before, is like the church is um growing in Iran and Iraq at these incredible rates. Uh, it's growing in China at these incredible rates. It's growing in the uh in uh like South Korea and these incredible rates, like uh Egypt, um, so many places, Christianity's growing in these massive numbers. Like, how is this happening? And I think sometimes we get so fixated on what's happening in another area that we think like somehow it's the end, or it's you know, it's like, no, God's gonna do what he's gonna do. Yeah, and in places that we look at and say they were corrupt, we used to be sending missionaries there. South Korea is sending missionaries to the United States, you know what I mean? Like they need help, you know what I mean? Yeah, and I I think um you just when we look at things, it's like I think we say, Is it too far gone? You know, it's not Sodom and Gomorrah, you know, it's not the kind of place where God says it'll literally never be inhabited ever again. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01I think it's uh it just sucks when you're on the side where you're watching the good things crumble and not helping uproot the bad things.
SPEAKER_00Paul never had that mentality.
SPEAKER_01That's fair.
SPEAKER_00I think everywhere he went, his goal is like, I'm gonna build churches. You could throw me in prison, you can do whatever you want. I'm gonna bring the kingdom and it's gonna be awesome. Um, I think what's hard is when you see the loss of what used to be, you know, something more beautiful. He was like, I was born in this destruction, you know. I mean, it's all uphill from here. For us, it's a little bit more sad seeing the downhill progression of uh of good things. Um, so fight for them. Yeah. And like I said, I do think there is a a real strategy to Christians find solid places with better governing principles and more godly magistrates and go be in those places, build them up, establish them, put more people into office and good places to defend the good things that God has called us to defend. And the longer uh I think we see the invasion of darkness into light, you know what I mean? Rather than uh rather than light um being solidified in areas before it's invading darkness, I think we're gonna continue to see handfuls instead of truckloads of transformation. And um, I I hope I hope this at least gives some context for a case. I know it's a massively complicated
Closing Thoughts And Future Topics
SPEAKER_00situation. And and people have tried to capture this when you read things like Les Miz, you know what I mean? So much of it is like situation ethics. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01What do you do when everything's the wrong thing? And I mean, talking about all of this, we didn't even touch on the crusades, which we'll have to do at some point.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I'm gonna get um I was talking to Jared. Yeah, we were he was wanting to come on and talk about chivalry and he wants to talk about the crusades. I was like, let's do both. That sounds fantastic.
SPEAKER_01So I mean, yeah, we've talked about that.
SPEAKER_00We'll get him on here soon and um pumped about it, but hope this is uh good for you guys and informational. Yeah. All right, have a great week, everybody.
