Demystifying influencer marketing disclosure regulations with Rupa Shah of Hashtag Ad Consulting

Episode 9 of the Influencer Marketing Lab - a weekly podcast tracking the growth spurts and growing pains of influencer marketing.

This podcast is sponsored by Tagger the data-driven influencer marketing platform and social listening tool.

This week Scott Guthrie is in conversation with Rupa Shah, founder and director of Hashtag Ad Consulting a firm that provides guidance and training on the advertising rules to social media and influencer marketers.

The episode covers:

• The niche Rupa identified within the influencer marketing industry which prompted her to leave the Advertising Standards Authority after 13 years
• What a CAP panel is
• The differences between, the Advertising Standards Authority, the Competition and Markets Authority and the Federal Trade Commission 
• Which formal body oversees industry errors rather than individual errors
• When might the Independent Press Standards Organisation,  the  Financial Conduct Authority or the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency get involved with a post
• Why there are different rules around product placement on the television compared with on social media
• Why more reality TV stars turned influencers seem to be in the ASA's line of fire rather than digital-first influencers
• How jurisdiction relates to where the audience you're targeting is based, not where you as a brand is or where the influencer is located
• The importance of  two-way communication between brand and influencer to ensure compliance knowledge is always current

👍Check out the Influencer Marketing Lab for full show notes, related useful links and a transcript.

🆕 Don't forget to sign up for the companion newsletter The Creator Briefing ( https://www.creatorbriefing.com/ ) - the weekly newsletter from Scott Guthrie which provides a breakdown of all the major news from the creator marketing industry alongside his insight and analysis.

Chapters

• 2:21 Introduction to Rupa Shah, founder of Hashtag Ad Consulting
• 3:49 The drivers for Rupa Shah's move from the Advertising Standards Authority towards setting up Hashtag Ad consulting
• 6:29 A work day-in-the-life of a consulting providing guidance and training on the advertising rules to social media and influencer marketers
• 8:52 The differences between the Advertising Standards Authority and the Competition and Markets Authority
• 10:28 Who overseas editorial content, financial advertising and medicines
• 12:09 Sponsor's message from Tagger
• 14:08 Difference in product placement rules on TV & social media
• 19:26 Why the ASA targets TV reality show contestants rather than digital-first influencers
• 21:47 Does the Federal Trade Commission impose different guidelines to those in the UK
• 23:21 The complexities of jurisdiction
• 27:05 The sanctions that the ASA and CMA can levy against influencer marketing which breaks their rules
• 28:58 Is it brand or influencer who is responsible for getting disclosure rules right
• 30:29 Will other platforms follow Instagram in making a specific commitment to the CMA
• 32:37 How else can influencer marketing professionalise
• 36:20 How Rupa Shah continues to keep up with changes within her discipline

Transcript

Scott Guthrie: 0:00

Hello, I'm Scott Guthrie and welcome to episode nine of the influencer marketing lab. This week's episode is devoted to talking about disclosure rules and compliance. From a distance the topic may hold the same dusty effect as talking about pensions or taxes or insurance policies. Were the subjects no doubt and much needed but not much fun. So I'm delighted to be in conversation with a group of schar, founder and director of hashtag ad consulting a firm that provides guidance and trailing on advertising rules to social media and influencer marketers. In this episode we cover the niche group identified with an influencer marketing industry, which prompted her to leave the Advertising Standards Authority after 13 years. The difference between the Advertising Standards Authority, the competition and markets authority, and the Federal Trade Commission, which football body oversees industry errors rather than individual errors. When might the independent press Stan's organisation the Financial Conduct Authority, or the medicines and healthcare products regulatory agency get involved in the post? Why are there different rules around product placement on the television compared with social media? Why more TV stars 10 influencers seem to be in the asase Line of Fire rather than digital first influences. Why jurisdiction relates to where the audience you're targeting is based, not where the brand is or where the influencer is, and the importance of two way communication between the brand and influencer to ensure compliance knowledge is always up to date. The influencer marketing lab has been made possible through exclusive sponsorship by Tiger Tiger is the number one data driven influencer marketing platform and social listening tool. It's an all in one SAS platform that helps users succeed in every step of the influencer marketing workflow. With it you can discover the perfect influences, research your target market, activate campaigns and measure influencer success all in one intuitive platform. If you want to see how taglish will work with you go to Tiger media.com slash request hyphen demo. This week on the influence of marketing lab I'm delighted to be in conversation with Rupert sharp. Rupert is founder and director of hashtag ad consulting a London based firm providing guidance and training on advertising rules to social media and influencer marketers. Though UK based hashtag ad consulting takes a unique approach to demystify advertising regulations across the world. ripple works closely with influencers with their brands, with advertising agencies, with tech platforms and brand owners to embed compliance throughout the whole marketing process and ultimately, to help brands and influencer marketers protect their reputation. Interestingly, before founding hashtag ad Rupert trained in law and work at the Advertising Standards Authority for 13 years. Welcome Roper.

Unknown: 3:11

Thank you, Scott. It's pleasure to join you.

Scott Guthrie: 3:13

Well, we've been friends for two or three years. So um, thanks for agreeing that short notice to be on the podcast as we're very pleased to have you

Rupa Shah: 3:21

to join you. It's nice it that it should feel like a nice comfortable chatter. That's what I'm hoping.

Scott Guthrie: 3:25

Well, as I said in the pre chat, I'm not Paxman, it's just really just trying to learn more about what you do and, and you've carved yourself a very interesting and valuable niche within a niche within a niche within influencer marketing. I really just want to try and delve into that a little bit. But you worked at the Advertising Standards Authority for 13 years before striking out on your own to fan hashtag ad, what were the drivers for your move? What prompted you to change,

Rupa Shah: 3:51

there were a few things I think I sort of began to realise that I was getting a bit almost hesitant to use the term institutionalised at the ASI. I think when you work for a regulatory organisation for so long, I think it's probably a bit like working in the civil service, you can get a bit comfortable. And actually, I just I think at the time, when I started thinking about creating hashtag ads, I just come back from maternity leave. And I sort of noticed a big increase in how social media was being used in more innovative ways. purely because I was on social media all the time. And so I came back quite invigorated and feeling like you know, there's definitely a lot that a lot of work the NSA could put into I've seen lots of breaches and came back and asked for some training and you know, it all seemed a little bit slow suddenly and and I think probably some other moms might recognise this you go back feeling really excited and and then suddenly you go to these conferences and everybody was also asking me, you know, what are the rules for influencer marketing we're feeling a bit as if we're up in the air and it's not all set in stone and and I didn't have the answers. So I was excited to be involved in creating these documents and creating good guidance for influences. But actually, it felt like it wasn't moving quick enough. And I identified that actually, you know, there might be another way of doing this. And, you know, with all organisations of that size, there is not going to be the speediest response if you want to find out an answer to a question. And same with influencer marketing. So the drivers were very much that, you know, could see this space opening up and I could see there was a need for guidance for everyone in the influencer marketing industry. So it wasn't just the influencers themselves, agencies and brands, and everybody had questions. And I think it was just the right time for me to just move away and, and create that little niche in a niche in a niche, as you put it.

Unknown: 5:45

Super niche down.

Scott Guthrie: 5:48

Well, so it was good time is good timing person, as you say, just come back from that leave. But also, I think, an interesting time for the industry. What was it? It's just 2018? Was this or the end of 2017? Yeah, 17. So maybe you're a bit ahead of the curve, but it's a good good place to be to be sort of a prime mover in that. And to your point about making sure that it's you know, influencer marketing is integrated. And it's, you know, we'll talk a little bit more about this, but you're at the aasa, the Advertising Standards Authority for 13 years, very much a UK institution. But of course, influencer marketing by nature is a global phenomenon. Before we start tackling that, is there such a thing as a day to day role as the founder of hashtag add image? So how do you feel your day?

Rupa Shah: 6:34

That's a good question. I think, pre COVID, I might have been able to give you a nice little template answer to that COVID. lockdown has changed things a lot. I hate to use this word because I think there's a lot of consultants and people in the industry who hate this word, but I'm going to say I pivoted

Scott Guthrie: 6:51

a bit or the reset. The reset is the pivot of consulting speak, but sorry, get go on Rooper?

Rupa Shah: 6:57

Yeah, so I mean, a typical day. So I guess, for me, it's very much by virtue of the nature of of what I do in the advice and the training that I give, I have to do a lot of horizon scanning. So a typical morning would be very much in terms of catching up with what the ESA are doing catching up with their rulings, any regulatory announcements, globally. So this is the challenge, of course, I have to see what the FTC are up to what's going on in Europe, and then possibly, you know, in an afternoon I might be working on so I'm on I'm on a cat panel, which is the promotional marketing panel. So it might be that I'm looking at one of the cases that's been brought to their attention, despite in their

Scott Guthrie: 7:37

urine a cat pedal, can you just explain what cap stands for?

Rupa Shah: 7:41

So capital, their committee of advertising practice, and they are the sister body to the HSA. So it's unfortunate as they get all of the publicity, but actually, quite a lot of the work that we call as a work is actually cap work cap are involved in writing the rules, they write the code, they enforce the code, and they give guidance to the industry. So they're very much the industry facing side of the organisation. They don't deal with the complaint side, that's all aasa, which is why they get all of the publicity, and you know, they sound like they're doing the fun stuff. But yes, so I'm on one of their panels, and they have a few of these. So as an industry member of that panel, I'm required to give guidance on rulings or cases that they've got ongoing, but they want a bit of industry guidance on them. These will crop up every couple of months. And it might be that they just want a bit of guidance on a competition that might be going on on Instagram, for example, it may be a giveaway in it's challenging what their traditional rules have been set out to achieve. And you know, because that's what technology does. So that's just, you know, a small part of what I might be doing

Scott Guthrie: 8:45

to you a little bit more into that we both live and work in the UK, albeit with a global AI. Starting with the United Kingdom in mind, there are two bodies overseeing rules and regulations governing the influence of marketing. We have the Advertising Standards Authority, which you've talked about a little bit, and we've also got the competition and markets authority. Can you explain a little bit about the differences between the two bodies?

Rupa Shah: 9:11

Yes, I tried to do it in a nutshell for you. So the asi are a self regulatory organisation, which means that the industry has come together themselves the advertising industry to try and regulate itself without having recourse to courts and they know really long expensive system, the CMA or a government body. So their CMA is a competition markets authority, as you said, they have a much wider remit, so where the aasa will only look at advertising, the CMA. But for the purposes of influence marketing, we need to think of them as the body that looks at industry errors rather than individual errors. And they'll only get involved if they see widespread non compliance with the consumer protection regulations. So they have this really big remit, they don't just look at things that we classed as ads. So where the ESA will only look at it. Post if they feel there's some level of editorial control over it, the CMA don't need to. So you can't get away with with not putting a disclosure because actually the brand didn't tell you what to write in that post. The CMA have told everybody that they feel that, you know, that's needs just as much disclosure as something where there is full editorial control.

Scott Guthrie: 10:19

Thank you. To be clear, the aasa currently oversees influences, but not editorial content, not financial advertising, and not medicines that are overseas these areas.

Rupa Shah: 10:31

So with editorial content, we've got the independent press standards organisation, it's so and so they are the independent regulator for the majority of the newspaper magazine industry in the UK. Financial advertising will primarily that's the Financial Conduct Authority, the FCA and medicines Well, again, primarily, you've got the medicines and healthcare products regulatory agency, the MH Ra. So they're an executive agency sponsored by the Department of Health.

Scott Guthrie: 10:59

We continually think about disclosure and being Have you applied and hashtag ad, or signified your Instagram posts with in paid partnership. But there are other bodies or beyond the ESA and the CMA that we should be mindful of. Especially I would think around financial advertising, and the medicines and healthcare products regulatory agency. And we've seen that with fat shakes and those sorts of things. When we recently,

Rupa Shah: 11:25

there's a crossover of remit. So the asi might receive a complaint that an influencer is promoting a shake or some shake. And they would deal with the social responsibility side of it potentially. And if they're making some claims that go beyond what the shake can actually do, if they are presenting this product as a medicine, then yes, potentially, it might be the MH ra who also will take action against them. So there is an overlap between all of these agencies. The same with financial advertising, we can look at certain types of financial advertising, but primarily if you're talking about something insurance products or something like that, that will be for the Financial Conduct Authority to deal with.

Scott Guthrie: 12:14

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Rupa Shah: 15:23

I completely agree with you that that actually that there is a disparity between them. The reason why and we haven't had an official announcement that, you know, we've we're taking this a certain route or the ESA have decided to go this way on it. But I think the reason why is because we've we've got two different codes in operation, here are two different sets of regulations. So with product placement that sits with off Comm. And they've set the rules. And these have been around since I think around about 2011 on product placement, and know where that piece should go, you know, where you should sit when you should see that type of thing. And they haven't really evolved since 2011. I haven't seen too many changes on that. Whereas with influencer marketing, we've seen rulings every week at certain points in time. And what's happened is that the ACA have had to adapt and reflects society's expectations of what they want to see from influences through their rulings every week. And as they move quicker off, come on, you know, they set some rules, they don't necessarily change them very often. So I think what's happened is we've just got these two paths that have diverged. And no one at any point of time has said, Well, actually, as you've pointed out, Scott, that these are very similar almost scenarios that you can juxtapose them and say that actually, it is all about product placement, it is all about the fact that there are celebrities or you know, people that were familiar with promoting a product when actually it's editorial content. Yeah, I think it's inadvertent. I don't think it's deliberate. I think anyone's set out a pie out there in the echelons of government to say, No, this is a different scenario on TV, and we much must be much more lenient. I just think that the ACA have acted quicker to try and address what they felt was misleading advertising where there was no disclosure, and this is how they've chosen to deal with it by, you know, in the same way that the FTC over in America have it, you know, by making sure that there's a clear disclosure labelled like hashtag ads on those posts,

Scott Guthrie: 17:20

or is there an argument then that it all should sit within one body?

Rupa Shah: 17:24

Sure, yeah. That would on the face of it makes sense. Right, then we can have some harm, as I say, having worked at the ASAP for 13 years. I think that's also them accepting some more remit and taking on more, for example, is just not necessarily going to put them

Scott Guthrie: 17:41

into my guest. Yeah.

Rupa Shah: 17:42

Excellent. Yeah. And so I don't think that's likely to happen anytime soon. Not Actually, I don't think that I've come get too many complaints directly about, you know, the product places.

Scott Guthrie: 17:51

That's another great point. In September last year, the ESA published findings, which showed that the only add marker that consumers were deemed to fully understand was hashtag ad, and there have been countless column inches devoted to highlighting influences who have flouted those rules ever since. However, over on the telly box, it seems like there's a wholly different sort of the story. I tracked back and found a piece of work from 2018 from TRP research, which showed you just that 30% of TV viewers in the UK, even remembered seeing the peace symbol on a television programme. And only 22% knew what the symbol actually meant. Yeah, apart from that tip research, I couldn't find any other media mention setting up from off comm and product placement has been the thing on the telly since 2011.

Rupa Shah: 18:42

Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I think with even within the industry, I don't think you're you're alone in not knowing exactly what that means. I think there'd be quite a few of us who would agree with you that they don't understand it. But I think there's a sense that TV is so heavily regulated that surely we cannot be misled on TV. People still see social media as the Wild West.

Scott Guthrie: 18:59

Exactly. Well, that's an interesting point I get I'm cutting in but you know, commercial Telly has been around for 6060, maybe 70 years. Social media has been around for 10 perhaps so you know, there's, you know, there's maybe an unfair weighted stick that that's beating influence of marketing and social media versus commercial television.

Unknown: 19:18

Yeah, I agree.

Scott Guthrie: 19:24

In your opinion, why do you think the ESA and the CMA have a downer, particularly on television celebrities, as opposed to digital first influences?

Rupa Shah: 19:35

That term on a downer? They do they do? I think you're right. We are seeing more influencer marketing rulings against reality TV celebs. And it's not just because they're the ones the press are picking up on. If you do actually go through the rulings, you'll see that most of them are focused on sort of the love islanders and the towie types. So why do they do that? Why Have we got so many rulings and judgments against them? I think it's partly because the people who are making the complaints are more likely to pick up on those posts. So if you think about a real digital first content creator, they're more likely to have a following who are engaged, authentic, and you know, I've been with them for longer, and I think then it would make them less likely to complain. Whereas you have these transient followings with the with the reality TV crowds, and if they spot something wrong, that's the type of consumer who's more likely to complain. So I think that's partly it, the complaints are going to be coming in about those those types of influences. But I think it's also the fact that the ESA are savvy enough to realise that if they do do a ruling, if they do do an investigation against someone who's already in the spotlight, and you know, is known amongst TV and press, that the the press will pick up on that ruling, and that's what they want. That's how the ESA operates. So their primary sanction is negative publicity. And they they're quite happy to state that. So if the press pick up on a ruling and talk about the fact that this celebrity hasn't completed, if not used hashtag ad, they've been misleading the public, that sends a real message across the whole industry. And that's what the NSA wants.

Scott Guthrie: 21:19

And we saw that with the CMA Didn't we last January last year, with the commitment of those 16 celebrity influencers, they'd signed up, they were waived, or as sort of the poster children, but I'm sure if they hadn't have signed up, they would be the CMA would have hit them with it with a stick.

Unknown: 21:35

That's it. Yeah.

Scott Guthrie: 21:41

The Federal Trade Commission oversees influencer marketing regulation in the United States, their guidelines in line with those of the UK

Rupa Shah: 21:51

primarily, I would say yes. And I know that quite a lot of influencers, content creators will look to the FTC guidelines, they still do that, even though the cap have issued guidelines for the UK, because they are quite nicely set out and they list lots of different scenarios. And I don't think it's a bad thing that you know, an influencer is trying to comply with some rules. And there are some differences. And in terms of disclosure label. So as you mentioned, Scott earlier that the asi did do some research a couple of years ago into exactly how consumers understand labels, what they understand from the different types of labels that are being used currently. And here in the UK, the you know, it was quite clear from that research that actually consumers are very limited in their understanding of so I think consumers have a limited understanding actually, of what all of these different labels mean. And the research really clearly shows that there are a limited number of labels that consumers actually do understand. So the ESA has heavily focused on ad hashtag ad advertisement, the use of labels that include ad, whereas over in America, the FTC have clearly stated that they find hashtag sponsored, for example, an acceptable label. We don't like that label in the UK, we feel that sponsored means a different type of relationship, not the traditional editorial control plus incentivization relationship. So the ESA prefer that not to be used,

Scott Guthrie: 23:17

jurisdiction becomes interesting, because it's not necessarily where the influencer resides. But where the audience resides.

Rupa Shah: 23:25

Yes. So yeah, that's a really interesting question, actually. Because I think there's a complete misunderstanding across the industry about which regulations to apply to your advertising. It's very much a fluid approach. The essay won't really tell you there are exact boundaries to this and if you have as an influencer, an audience that's global and the chances are you if you're a largish influencer, you will have a global audience. The rules you need to apply are very much in terms of which brand you're working with, and whether or not potentially what you're promoting can be purchased in that country. So it's possible that as an influencer based in the UK, if you're promoting a brand that has you know, has a business based in America or in shops in America, and actually your post promotes or links to the American website, for example, the.com as opposed to the.co.uk, then you could be seen to be targeting US consumers, in which case you are subject to the rules in America, and you need to be aware of the FTC guidelines and make sure that you're complying with them. So it's not just that you are as an influencer, or as a brand where you are based. It's about who you're targeting or who could potentially see that post and take action and and purchase that product or

Scott Guthrie: 24:44

service. A picture of your painting is one of confusion. And one of a patchwork of jurisdictions. Is there any attempt or any plans to kind of harmonise the different regulators across the world?

Rupa Shah: 24:59

Yes. There is so there are a couple of bodies that attempt to do that job. In Europe, we have the European Advertising Standards Alliance iasa, who have a sort of template guidelines for influencer marketing and the self regulatory organisations across Europe will try to implement those into their own set of codes and ensure that they abide by them. So generally, they are harmonised across Europe, what we've seen is that all of these rules come from one basic rule, which is that advertising should look like advertising because there are nuances and things evolved out of that there will be slight differences. And and I think there have to be some differences because consumers are different in different countries, and they act differently. And we have to acknowledge that too. But yes, I think generally, I think it would mean, it can sound very scary. And as you said, it can sound confusing, and the fact that there is this patchwork of rules. But if you're trying to comply and trying to create a compliance strategy as a brand, and you know that you're going to be crossing territories and borders, I would always suggest that you try to take those strictest rules and take the strictest approach. And the UK and America between them probably have some of the clearest and strictest regulations. So generally, if you're following those, it's unlikely that you'll be breaking any rules. But of course, you know, when we talk about territories where they have specific product related rules with alcohol or gambling, then it gets complicated again, but when you're just talking about disclosure for influencer marketing, there is a level of harmonisation.

Scott Guthrie: 26:30

So it's moving in the right direction. And you mentioned the European Advertising Standards Alliance. And of course, we both worked on a webinar together a couple of months ago say that we're great fans of the work that they're doing. And I see that Google is now signed up to work with them as well. But But in terms of the CMA or the FTC, you've got the international consumer protection and enforcement network as well, which is kind of the same thing, isn't it, but protecting the consumer at scale. And I think there's 65 countries around the world that have signed up to be part of that. That structure. You mentioned earlier on about sanctions and kind of the the asase biggest sanction or biggest stick that he can wield is his shaming influences that have flouted their rules, whether intentionally or not. But what sanctions do the ESA and the CMA have against ads and sponsored content.

Rupa Shah: 27:21

So they have like a, what they call my second letter of sanctions, which they will step up depending on how non compliance or an influence or brand is. And so the starting point is that negative publicity so every formal ruling gets published and the press will pick up on it and and that should work to discourage a brand or influencer from making that mistake. Again, if they're not compliant, and the ACA seen cases, serial cases of non compliance, they can ramp up those sections to the point of they have a wall of shame page for brands. That's the colloquial name for it. It has it has a technical name, I think it's a non compliant advertisers page, which is optimised so that when they list an advertiser on that the the aim is to make sure that if you're searching for that particular brand, you should see that page over and above the actual brand listing on Google. And then beyond that, if it's still not working, they're still noncompliance. They can, they can, in the USA deal with the platforms, they can make sure that things are removed, listings are removed, posts are removed by coordinating with the platforms. And finally, they have a relationship with Trading Standards. So they are the official backstop for the ESA. And they can pass the file over to Trading Standards and Trading Standards have the ability to pursue a case through courts and that might be criminal, potentially, but usually civil action taken against a brand.

Scott Guthrie: 28:48

When the ESA and CMA find fault with a piece of advertising that's not effectively disclosed. Who is culpable though is I Is it the brand is the influence is the intermediary. So for example, the PR or the marketing agency.

Rupa Shah: 29:04

So for a typical post, for example, on Instagram, the asi receive a complaint, they would contact both the influencer and the brands. And they would accept a response from both the influencer and the brands. They would name both the influencer and brand in their ruling. So they treat the influencer as the publisher and the brand as the advertiser. If the brand has engaged in agency, they are welcome to respond and the ESA might include their response in that ruling. So if you read the full text of the ruling, you might see an agency named as well. But in terms of for example, sanctions and requesting an assurance of compliance the ESA would look to both the influencer and the brand. So primary responsibility is influencer plus brand they held that joint joint responsibility. However, the CMA we know have taken action against agencies in the past. So it's not that agencies can step aside and you know, assume that they have a lower level of culpability they don't the CMA can take action against them. And they have in the past when they've seen agencies promoting non disclosure or actively engaging with influencers, knowing that there's going to be no disclosure. So the responsibility here in the UK at least is across all parties. And very recently, we know that the CMA have taken action against Instagram. So actually platforms as well have a level of responsibility.

Scott Guthrie: 30:27

Instagram recently made a commitment to CMA to do better. Do you think other platforms will follow suit? And do you think Instagram will look to do likewise, in other jurisdictions? Do I

Rupa Shah: 30:37

think other platforms will follow suit? I think, now that, you know, it's been a bit of a short sharp shock for probably for Instagram, and I think it would be naive for other platforms to think that they would be immune to this type of action. Instagrams been around for quite a long time. And most content creators are familiar with how to use, for example, their paid partnership tools. But we know that on the scene, we have some of those newer contenders who are offering similar types of tools and content creators can put sponsored material on their posts. So yes, I think it's likely that all of these platforms will be in their sights, there's no particular reason why the CMA should choose one platform over another. So I don't think the CMA will will sit back and rest now that this this is out there. There certainly are issues, and I've seen issues on other platforms with disclosures. Over in America recently, I think this summer, the FTC identified the fact that sharing content from Tick Tock over to Instagram can lead to disclosures being lost. So there are there issues like this that have been that are being picked up. And it's something that the regulatory bodies want will want to make sure cannot happen, because if a platform itself cannot facilitate disclosure, then it will be very difficult for the industry as a whole to comply. So it's really important that the platform's make it as simple and easy and clear as possible. So yes, I think it's likely that the the other platforms out there, and I mean, these will change all the time, but they should all ensure that they are doing the very best in under their technical capabilities to make sure that those using their platform can disclose clearly.

Scott Guthrie: 32:22

All of your work is involved in disclosure and making sure that brands know about disclosure rules and advertisers and tech platforms and influencers know about the disclosure rules. How else can the influencer marketing channel professionalise?

Rupa Shah: 32:39

I think the industry as a whole as you said they have access to these tools. And I think what's nice to see within the industry is that they're they're taking control and offering various tools within each sort of platform to help facilitate compliance and I myself have worked on making sure that these tools do exactly what influencers need them to do. So I think there's always going to be a level of the industry taking control for itself and offering techniques and tools where, you know, disclosure is made as easy and simple as possible. I think there doesn't need to be an onus of responsibility here. Because I've spoken to influencers right in the top tier celebrities who, who really don't understand the disclosure rules, and might leave it to their agency, their brand their managers to deal with all of this. So I think as an industry, I think there's a level of responsibility to make sure that the creators that you are working with understand them too. And whether that's through the contract or extra material, however you do it, I think it'll be to the benefit of everyone within that business partnership.

Scott Guthrie: 33:42

Still building awareness, you're saying and also you're suggesting, though, it's a reminder that influencer marketing is part of a process where you identify the most appropriate influencer, but then you work together. And there's a set of words that you use in terms of creative brief and then and then a contract as well. And, and presumably, at that stage, you should be reminding the the influence that you're working with about the rules and regulations in that jurisdiction.

Rupa Shah: 34:09

Yeah, yes, I think you've always got to see it as fluid and that the contracts won't necessarily solve all of your problems, you potentially have a collaboration that could last years. So there has to be this two way engagement with an influencer to make sure that they clearly understand what their responsibilities are, alongside all of the creative stuff that goes on and the fun stuff that you know, this conversation needs to be ongoing.

Scott Guthrie: 34:32

Another way to professionalise or to make sure that brands and influencers effectively disclose is the better use of data and that I think there's a false belief that pending a piece of content with a hashtag add or somehow calm that piece of content that viewers won't like it or the algorithm won't like it but the stats don't back that up. As consumers we we enjoy influencer generated content but has to be on three provisos, one that we're not we don't feel hoodwinked into thinking that a piece of sponsored content is a piece of editorial content. So we don't like to feel duped into that, and the will will turn against the brand of the influence. If we do feel tapped up, I think secondly, that piece of content is going to give us some sort of values can be interesting or entertaining or inspiration, respiration. And three can be ad after ad after ad after ad after ad, mindful of those three sort of rules, then there's no suggestion and the data back to that, that, that consumers don't like, paid for content, and fact that, you know, the audience has realised that there's a commercial imperative for their favourite creators to work with, with sponsored brands on sponsored content so that they can create more of the organic content. I agree.

Rupa Shah: 35:47

Yeah, I think there's, it very much depends on on your audience, as well as, as I say, if you've created an audience who truly understand what you're trying to achieve, it's not going to look as desperate to have that hashtag out there, you'd like you said, you'll understand what it's doing there. And it can improve the look of that feed. And you know, you've got access to all of these brand tools. And actually, like you said, You're the step man with this, Scott, you know, exactly that the people aren't necessarily turned away from the hashtag ad posts.

Scott Guthrie: 36:17

Lastly, Rupa, how do you continue to learn in order to stay on top of your role, the hashtag ad

Rupa Shah: 36:26

For me, this is probably I would say, through relationships, it I mean, it's not just as simple as for what I do to just go on a course and, and accumulate some CPD points. And, and

Scott Guthrie: 36:39

if only that was so simple to be nice for me to go back to.

Rupa Shah: 36:42

And so I, you know, what I've done from the start, and what's always worked well for me is to make sure that I have these relationships with people across the industry, within the regulators and outside the regulators and the platforms. And it's all about keeping in touch and maintaining those relationships. And I find that's just you know, is always going to be the best way to make sure you know, what's going on, you know, what the developments are, you know, what's coming up in the pipeline for Tick Tock? What's going on with Amazon reviews, without having those relationships? And, you know, that's, that's key for me, and being able to pick up the phone and study what's going on with VR. And just, yeah, that's that's how I find out more. Of course, I'll you know, I'll also join in those webinars, the law firms will have them and the ESA will have these training sessions. But I don't think that's as important as making sure that I'm just in touch with key figures throughout the industry.

Scott Guthrie: 37:36

Well, thank you very much, Rupert, for your time. And for your insight. Where can I find out more about you about hashtag ad consulting online?

Rupa Shah: 37:45

Well, as you know, Scott, I love LinkedIn. So I'm on LinkedIn. It's my favourite platform, you'll find me posting videos and just updates all across LinkedIn. I also have my website, which is hashtag ad code at UK. And I'm on Instagram, but not very often, and Twitter as well with hashtag ad limited. I like making connections on LinkedIn. And I think it's a really good place to to learn more about the industry and there are some other consultants and people in the industry who are equally engaged so it'd be good to keep in touch with people through that route.

Scott Guthrie: 38:19

Rupa Shah, thank you very much for your time.

Rupa Shah: 38:21

Thank you, Scott.

Scott Guthrie: 38:29

Thank you for listening to the influence of marketing lab with me Scott Guthrie. The podcast is sponsored by tiger. Please subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you enjoy your podcasts. For more information, visit influencer marketing lab.com. And if you want to see how tagger can work for you, go to tag a media.com slash request hyphen demo