In this interview Tony Watkins, Fellow for Public Engagement at Tyndale House, interviews Barry Danylak, Executive Director of SEE Global, about his new book, Paul and Secular Singleness in 1 Corinthians 7. Barry shares about the research he has done looking at extra-biblical sources from around the time Paul wrote to the Corinthians. He describes what family structures would have been like, based on ancient census data, and explains how this is relevant to us today as we approach the challenging passage of 1 Corinthians 7.
We’d love to hear your thoughts on the episode so please do get in touch either on X @tyndale_house or email us communications@tyndalehouse.com
Editing by Tyndale House.
Music: Acoustic Happy Background used via Adobe Stock with a standard license.
In this interview Tony Watkins, Fellow for Public Engagement at Tyndale House, interviews Barry Danylak, Executive Director of SEE Global, about his new book, Paul and Secular Singleness in 1 Corinthians 7. Barry shares about the research he has done looking at extra-biblical sources from around the time Paul wrote to the Corinthians. He describes what family structures would have been like, based on ancient census data, and explains how this is relevant to us today as we approach the challenging passage of 1 Corinthians 7.
We’d love to hear your thoughts on the episode so please do get in touch either on X @tyndale_house or email us communications@tyndalehouse.com
Editing by Tyndale House.
Music: Acoustic Happy Background used via Adobe Stock with a standard license.
Tony Watkins: Hello. I'm joined today by Barry Danylak, who this morning at coffee time in Tyndale House, gave us a copy of his new book, Paul and Secular Singleness in 1 Corinthians 7.
Barry, thank you very much for joining us.
It's great to have you with us today
and exciting for you to be presenting the book at coffee time
this morning.
Tell us a bit about yourself.
Where are you based?
What do you do there?
Barry Danylak: So I am a missionary pastor, so I'm ordained with the Evangelical
Missionary Church of Canada. I am based in Calgary, Alberta, and I serve as the executive director of an organization called SEE Global,
which is a very small organization, mostly consisting of myself and a few great
volunteers and collaborators. and our mission really is to equip the Church
on issues around singleness, marriage and family around the world.
We are recognising the reality of a world in which marriage is declining.
And so, our mission really is to think
deeply and theologically in a constructive way about singleness.
But then also about marriage, family and kind of the broader,
rubric of, life within the body of Christ.
Tony: Fantastic.
Barry: And, so that's yeah, that's what we do, and that's
what I've been a part of here for my last four years.
And before that, I was a pastor.
Tony: Okay.
Barry: working in one of Canada's large churches, and I do a little bit of teaching
on the side as well.
Tony: Okay. Yeah. Great.
And what what's the background then to your work in this area?
So you've been doing this for four years, you've been working on this book slightly longer than four years. which we'll come back to in a moment.
so what just give us a little bit of the backstory.
Barry: There's, there's a little bit of a backstory as I, worked for many years
in, as really a lay leader in my church, which originally got my interest
in academia on this issue of,
a theology of singleness.
So, that really formed into a, a nucleus of work,
which became an earlier work.
I did in 2010 with Crossway publishers,
called Redeeming Singleness
so a book on the theology of singleness,
kind of a biblical theology.
That, of course, opens the door to, well,
what about 1 Corinthians 7?
and this very challenging
passage of 40 verses
that Paul gives us in the New Testament
most extended discussion of marriage
in the New Testament.
And yet probably one of the most,
profoundly misunderstood
or hard to understand
or difficult passages.
So it really opened my curiosity
to say, what,
how do we get our head around it?
And that, opened the door,
at the same time to
connect with the then warden of Tyndale
House, Bruce Winter.
Tony: Right.
Barry: who is also a man of the sources
and interested in Corinthians
and New Testament
backgrounds and Greco-Roman,
world and that so
it really opened
the door of exploration for me.
And how do we place
Paul in his context?
Tony: So when did you first
come to Tyndale House?
Barry: Oh my goodness.
Well, it's been 20 years ago so
it was 2004
In the fall, I, enrolled and began
my studies here and,
fortunately, I, you know,
I was able to finish,
I think I completed my studies in 2012.
Tony: Okay. PhD studies?
Barry: PhD studies. Right.
but it's taken another 12 years
to sort of get from that work and that time
to sort of a readable version
for the general academic community.
Tony: So this, this is an academic monograph
that's based on your thesis
but is quite adapted from it.
Barry: Adapted, updated and made a bit more readable than the actual thesis itself.
So it's intended for somebody
to be able to navigate through it
and, not have to know
Greek and Hebrew and Latin to survive.
Tony: Who is this book for?
Barry: Right.
Tony: Well, perhaps you should tell us a bit
about what the book is first.
Barry: Yeah.
Tony: You've kind of alluded to it
in what you said about your PhD work.
But, yeah, tell us a little bit more
about what's what's in this.
Barry: Right.
So, the title,
which some might find curious
Paul and secular singleness
in 1 Corinthians 7,
that begs the question of
what do we mean by secular singleness?
And so what in the world is that?
And what does it have to do with Paul
and and his writing in 1 Corinthians?
and I think the best way
to just open it is to contrast it
in that, oftentimes
the singleness that became
largely a focus within
the church is a monastic, a spiritual,
type of singleness,
which considered it to be a spiritual
discipline.
Tony: Yeah. Right.
Barry: So this is a spiritual exercise,
a spiritual discipline that, evolved into the monastic movement
of the Middle Ages and so on.
There's many who who place the beginnings
and the origins of that in 1
Corinthians itself, in the context
of the Corinthian environment
that Paul's engaging.
So, what this book really attempts to do
is challenge the kind of prevailing assumption
that there's
some sort of a pre-monastic
ascetic, possibly gnostic,
view that was anti-marriage,
anti-sex and body
and was really a movement within Corinth
and the Corinthian audience
that Paul's engaging with and moves
to suggest that,
no, maybe,
the Corinthians were much more like,
21st century Europeans and,
and Western culture
in having a much more secular disposition
of not marrying
for much more personal reasons,
and for the personal benefit of
that that would entail.
Tony: Right.
Barry: So, it really sees marriage,
and singleness
primarily in the,
rubric of a political decision
rather than a
theological religious decision,
which we often
think of it this is, you know,
part of my commitment
as a religious ceremony, when in fact,
for I think much of the audience Paul's
engaging with, marriage
was much more of a political act of,
first of all, obedience to the Empire
as there was marriage laws,
it was part of the legal
fabric of the society.
But then also from the standpoint
of being,
sort of a political citizen, of bearing
children, raising children,
this part of building and facilitating,
the imperial
purposes that,
that were present at the, at the time.
So, I think it what we begin to do
here is try to place Paul
in a,
I think, a more probable environment
of a politically motivated decision
that he's
finding in the case of the Corinthians,
as well as a philosophically informed
audience and clearly know that,
the Corinthians
were philosophically astute.
We know, from Luke
that Paul was engaging with Epicureans
and Stoics in Athens
just prior to coming to Corinth.
So we know that these things are
in the air.
it's part of the,
just that
the whole climate in which,
Paul is working with the Corinthians.
And so really what we're looking to do in
this book
is to, place
Paul back in that environment.
and with the addition...
I think the other thing,
if I might say, we seek to do here,
Tony, is,
take advantage
of a broader range of sources.
Tony: Yeah, I was about to ask about that.
Barry: So one of the benefits of working here in Cambridge
is the commitment to engagement
with the source material.
And, when I first arrived
working under the supervision of,
of Dr Winter,
he very much wanted me to
be a student of the sources
and not just the typical
Jewish and, you know, Philo and Josephus,
and we have a kind of our,
common ones.
but to actually get to
what about material sources?
So what about the papyri?
What about the epigraphy?
Tony: Can you just explain what you mean
by epigraphy for people who are not familiar
with that term?
Barry: so epigraphy is just really looking
at the stones that they, but particularly things like gravestones
and any sort of engraved writing that
that was common to the ancient world
because they documented so much in stone.
Tony: Yeah.
Barry: in ways that we no longer do so much.
So the papyri sources are another.
We have a mountain of
papyri
that has been recovered
in, you know, from mid-twentieth century
to the present that continues to be of
benefit for us as scholars.
So for example the
one of the things we look at is
some of the census data.
We recall from Luke that Augustus
takes a census,
brought Mary and Joseph down
to Bethlehem
and yet, what's amazing
is that, you know,
so much of that has been recovered
and documented. So
Tony: So what kind of data are they collecting?
I mean, I when I think of a,
of a contemporary census,
they're asking all kinds of questions.
But I imagine that I always assume that
an ancient census census was just
counting people up writing the names
and that.
Well, and so its somewhere between the two is it?
Barry: We assume it's basically for taxes.
It's about the money, right?
You know,
we think of all the tax collectors,
In fact, the census
data presents
quite a bit of information
on family structure
So we know what a typical household
consisted of
which of course, would include
not only the parents and children.
It could include in-laws,
grandparents, uncles, aunts.
It would include slaves
that might have been in the household.
And it might also include boarders.
So often households would have
people living coming and going,
particularly larger households.
Tony: Right.
Barry: And so much of this, of course, the,
the vast majority has all been lost
because it was typically
written on papyri,
which is easily, it doesn't keep.
But of course, in Egypt
we have benefited from just loads of
of papyri that has maintained
the test of time through
being buried in the sands
and the climate conducive to its preservation.
And so,
what,
you know, scholars have been able to do
is re-collect that.
What does it
what interesting points does that give us?
one might ask
Well, one of the most interesting things
is the dynamic of
men and women in Roman society,
particularly when we move
from the rural areas into cities.
So, Paul
Jesus is working from village
to village right?
He's going, the small Jewish villages.
Paul, on the other hand,
is going from city to city in the Greco-Roman Empire
So we're now talking mostly
with a completely different
we forget, you know, Paul is a missionary
in his missionary journeys.
He is taking the gospel
to people that culturally
are completely of a different world
and understanding worldview.
Tony: Right.
Barry: They're also highly urbanized.
And most of Paul's
letters are written to cities because.
Tony: He's going to these
to their strategic centres isn’t he?
Barry: Yes the strategic places of the commercial
you know, of Rome and Ephesus in Corinth.
Right. And so,
what that means is that,
the dynamic that Paul's engaging with
is an urban population.
and what the census data would suggest
is that there tended to be a displacement
of male migration into cities
looking for work.
which would create a bit
of an imbalance between males and females.
and it raises the interesting question of
what does that mean
for city life in a typical Greco-Roman city, right.
If you have more men than women.
Well, one, as it been documented
by other scholars, is you're gonna have a
you're gonna have a prostitution problem,
which, of course, is very evident
in Paul's discussion right there
in 1 Corinthians prior
to his marriage discussion.
But it also means
you're going to have a preponderance
of singles, single male, unmarried,
and a potential shortage
of potential eligible
mates to marry
So that is part of the sort of
in the current of the background
that is most likely going on
in the context of an urban environment
like Corinth.
Tony: That's very interesting.
Barry: So it's important for how we read the text
and how we understand
certain bits of Paul's discussion.
Tony: Right.
Barry:
the, at a number of points,
Paul
One of the side effects
as well, that we can document is
that women would have been more empowered
to divorce,
in an environment where there's
a shortage, relative shortage of women.
And we see that, which is interesting
because when Paul talks
about divorce,
he goes first to the women, not to the men.
He says, you know,
‘Considering those who are married,
let a woman not be,
separated from her husband.’
And then there's an extended discussion
there, and only a passing comment
‘And let not the husbands
divorce their wives.’
So there's something there
that says, why would he focus on women
unless women had a bit more ability
to marry and remarry?
Tony: Right.
Barry: And that informs a bit of the dynamic,
particularly among men who
were likely unfaithful to their wives
as a cultural phenomenon in general.
So, knowing the words of Jesus, which Paul
seems to make reference to as well
in 1 Corinthians 7,
I think there's reason to think
it's probably an extended commentary
on Jesus's teaching in Matthew 19
and in the Synoptics.
where he also talks about marriage,
singleness and divorce.
and so Paul is aware certainly of,
you know, the permission structure
Jesus gives for unfaithful,
you know, for divorce.
And so he's informing
and highlighting,
based on their context
in a pastoral way that doesn't give,
free rein to the women to remarry.
Tony: Right.
Barry: But acknowledges, yes,
if the men are unfaithful,
you can divorce if you remain single
and faithful in singleness.
Tony: Right.
Barry: So what we see really is
a dynamic here of Paul
offering us a high view of marriage
and a high view of singleness.
Tony: Right.
Barry: And this is what's so refreshing
for today's church that we really,
we want to be teaching,
we want to be preaching a high view
of marriage that respects it
as God intended and ordained it,
that sees our,
sexual relations to be located
within the bond of that husband-
wife relationship,
but also doesn't diminish
the goodness of those
that do choose the celibate life
to honour God in this way.
And the advantages of that
that Paul makes clear as well.
So he really gives us a powerful
and profound, vision
for a high view of marriage and singleness,
both within the, in a balanced way,
within the Christian community
that values
the whole of the body of Christ,
as I think,
was intended by Jesus in his ministry
as well.
Tony: Yeah. Brilliant.
So to go back to the question
that I diverted off.
This is an academic, more academic book.
Who do you want to read this?
Because this is not a book
for an ordinary church member.
Probably. Is it?
Barry: Probably not.
Tony: Books based on PhD don't tend to be
Barry: They don’t tend to be. So yeah, exactly.
So the question is, well, how
is this of benefit to the average pastor
in the pew or the average person
that says, okay,
this is not likely a book
–at a price of £100 by the way–
that is likely
to be picked up and bought,
by the average person.
I think
the best way to think about it is that,
I think it informs the discussion,
on 1 Corinthians 7,
and particularly for those
that are writing commentaries and books of understanding,
so those that write the commentaries
are going to read books like this,
they're then going to try to give a best
understanding of the world
view, the world in which Paul's
ministering to in the commentary,
where it benefits the average pastor
in preaching is the first thing,
one is told to exegete a passage is,
you need to know the context.
So the basic core questions
a pastor is going to want to know
is, well, what's the context
we're dealing with here?
And on a passage
like 1 Corinthians 7,
context is so key to understanding
and reading it properly.
Tony: Clearly.
Barry: That, the first place one would go
is to a good commentary that one trusts.
And hopefully if the commentary is reading
books like this,
it can bring to bear
in kind of a succinct, useful way,
kind of the
context that then the pastor can quickly
read and assess
draw to their own benefit, to serve their,
their congregants in the pew.
and of course,
for those that are the average,
church attendee,
the benefit might be just in, in sitting
under the good teaching of your pastor,
who is careful in their preparation
by reading the commentaries
which are relying on books like this.
So there's a bit of,
you know, a flow
a logical flow of ideas.
Tony: Yeah.
Barry: From books
like this down into sort of the broader
appreciation
of the average person in the church.
Tony: It makes my heart rejoice
when somebody writes a monograph
and the goal of it
is, is to bless the Church.
Barry: Absolutely.
Tony: because if if we just write monographs
just for the sake of writing a monograph,
who are we helping?
But the Lord gives us
these opportunities in order to
to benefit his people, doesn't he?
It's great to hear you express that so,
so clearly.
So Tyndale House has played
something of a role here
then from you being
based here for your PhD,
what has been the
the value apart from encountering
Bruce Winter and him pushing you
to engage with the sources,
what's been the value of,
of being part of Tyndale House,
connected with Tyndale House
and then returning here from time to time?
Barry: Yes. Well,
I'm, phenomenally grateful for this place.
In fact, I think I did,
jot down in the copy that I've left with
Peter and the library
that this book wouldn't exist
apart from Tyndale House.
And I think it's because of the
not just the fact
that you have such an excellent, superb
collection of resources in one place.
but also the community that's here,
I would call it,
you know, a living community of academic
growth and development and expansion.
And so having the opportunity of meeting
so many people over the years
that I was here to not only discuss
some of these topics with,
I remember having endless discussions
with David Instone-Brewer on divorce,
because of course he’s written quite a bit, looking again
at papyri sources for
divorce and remarriage and
but so many of those discussions that
I think stimulated the
the academic sort of exploration
that was necessary
to really be fruitful,
not only as a PhD student,
but in the broader sense
to really seek a way
to contribute to the life
and growth of the Church as a whole.
And so I think Tyndale House
has just been a exceptional
example of a Christian community
committed to high levels
of robust academic scholarship
in a context that benefits both students
at the university pursuing PhD studies,
but also,
pastors and other academics
who are seeking to continue their research
and writing for further
benefit to the Church.
So it really brings together,
I think, the best of both
for healthy, stimulating discussions
and and of course, the, you know,
obviously the connections with the journal
and the larger foundation and,
and Tyndale fellowship
has been extremely beneficial as well.
So we're grateful for the vision
that has been this place
for over, what,
now, 60 or 70 years or what is it?
Tony: yeah. That's 1945 we opened our doors.
January of 1945
Barry: Coming up to 70 years.
and, is
no its more than 75 years
Tony: 75 years.
Barry: Yes.
So, you know,
it's been just a yes, indeed
you’re getting
closer to 80.
do the math.
But, the continued vision
here that Peter and the staff
and all of you have done
has really enabled,
I think, Tyndale to flourish and and be,
an ever
contemporary and forward-looking resource
for scholarship for the next generation.
so I'm just,
phenomenally grateful for this place.
And I love to come back from time to time.
Tony: Excellent.
Barry: As the Lord opens the door
to continue further work
and see where,
you know, how we can each continue
studies as and, blessing the Church
as we have opportunity to do so.
Tony: Excellent.
Well, thank you so much for
for this really important work.
and for the copy, that's,
that's in the library.
That will be
well used by anybody who's working on
1 Corinthians here in the future.
It's very satisfying
to get to the end of any project,
but when it's taken quite a few years
that must be particularly
Barry: Especially satisfying to see it done.
Tony: Yeah.
Absolutely.
Is there one key thing
you would like from this book
to get into the minds of pastors
who are preaching 1 Corinthians 7?
Barry: Yes, I think the one key thing is
the world Paul is dealing
with is a lot more like your world
than maybe
you have realized in the past.
And I think that's a benefit for pastors
to know.
Tony: Brilliant.
Barry, thank you so much
Barry: Thank you Tony.