00:00:06:12 - 00:00:07:11
Hello and welcome
00:00:07:11 - 00:00:10:11
to another episode of the Tyndale House
podcast.
00:00:10:13 - 00:00:13:17
We are in season four of the podcast,
which is our second series
00:00:13:17 - 00:00:16:15
looking at names in the Bible
and the ancient world.
00:00:16:15 - 00:00:19:23
And we are looking today
at the question of genealogies,
00:00:20:07 - 00:00:23:07
of which there are quite a few
in the Bible, as you may have noticed.
00:00:23:16 - 00:00:27:04
So I'm joined again
by Caleb, Caleb Howard, who heads up
00:00:27:04 - 00:00:30:07
our Old Testament research
team here at Tyndale House,
00:00:30:22 - 00:00:34:10
and is an Assyriologist, and James
Bejon
00:00:34:11 - 00:00:38:13
who is a PhD candidate at the University
of Cambridge and a reader here
00:00:38:13 - 00:00:43:03
at Tyndale House and is also part
of the Old Testament research team.
00:00:43:09 - 00:00:45:17
Good morning, gentlemen.
Good to have you with us again.
00:00:45:17 - 00:00:46:15
J: Again. Yeah it’s good.
C: Good morning.
00:00:46:15 - 00:00:48:21
Another exciting discussion ahead.
00:00:48:21 - 00:00:50:10
So tell us about genealogies.
00:00:50:10 - 00:00:53:01
The Bible has quite
a few. Do you know how many?
00:00:54:00 - 00:00:54:20
Ha ha!
00:00:54:20 - 00:00:56:16
How do you define a genealogy?
00:00:56:16 - 00:00:57:21
Yeah, alright. I've,
00:00:57:21 - 00:01:00:12
I've not counted them myself.
So it wasn't a trick question.
00:01:00:12 - 00:01:02:14
I just wonder
whether you knew off the top of your head.
00:01:02:14 - 00:01:03:12
J: I feel like I should know.
00:01:03:12 - 00:01:06:12
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, right.
00:01:06:21 - 00:01:09:21
Well, there's a homework for the,
for the listeners.
00:01:11:01 - 00:01:13:14
My understanding is that the Bible has
00:01:13:14 - 00:01:16:02
an unusual interest in genealogies
00:01:16:02 - 00:01:18:18
compared to other literature
from the ancient world.
00:01:18:18 - 00:01:21:24
So Caleb, do you want to start us off
00:01:21:24 - 00:01:25:04
just reflecting a little bit on on that?
00:01:25:08 - 00:01:27:11
Obviously we don't want to talk about it
for too long, but
00:01:27:11 - 00:01:30:21
but is there a difference
between the Bible's interest in genealogies
00:01:30:21 - 00:01:33:21
and that in, in, say, Assyria?
00:01:34:14 - 00:01:36:14
And and why might that be?
00:01:36:14 - 00:01:36:20
Yeah.
00:01:36:20 - 00:01:41:04
So I think it's worth thinking about,
genealogies or lists of things,
00:01:42:06 - 00:01:44:23
as existing for certain purposes.
00:01:44:23 - 00:01:47:19
So you don't just produce a list
just for no reason.
00:01:47:19 - 00:01:50:14
And when you look at the list
in the ancient world,
00:01:50:14 - 00:01:53:17
you can often discern the purpose, either
because there's
00:01:53:17 - 00:01:56:17
some note attached to the list
saying this is a list of such and such,
00:01:56:17 - 00:01:59:12
Whatever group of people.
00:01:59:12 - 00:02:02:12
And so if you bear that in mind,
you can see that the different lists
00:02:02:12 - 00:02:06:09
in the Bible and also in the ancient Near
East have different purposes
00:02:06:18 - 00:02:10:07
and presumably reflect
a social context for, for those lists.
00:02:11:09 - 00:02:14:05
So I agree with you that the Bible has
00:02:14:05 - 00:02:17:05
a unique interest in genealogy.
00:02:17:07 - 00:02:20:15
It's possible that we have, let's say,
00:02:22:03 - 00:02:25:03
less lists than you might imagine per
00:02:26:01 - 00:02:29:01
given number of texts in the
in in Mesopotamia, say,
00:02:29:08 - 00:02:32:21
because there was less interest
in genealogy and family relationships.
00:02:32:21 - 00:02:36:08
Or it's possible that records like
that were kept and we don't have them.
00:02:36:17 - 00:02:38:09
Okay.
They might have been kept through memory.
00:02:38:09 - 00:02:41:14
People knew their family members
and so on and kept them in that way.
00:02:42:00 - 00:02:44:14
So bearing in mind
that the text won't necessarily
00:02:44:14 - 00:02:47:19
reflect the reality of sort of
how people kept track of things.
00:02:48:08 - 00:02:51:18
If you look at the list of people
in the Bible, the genealogies of people
00:02:51:18 - 00:02:55:04
in the Bible, we can talk about
the definition of genealogy in a minute.
00:02:55:04 - 00:02:55:24
I think it's worth doing.
00:02:57:12 - 00:03:00:05
I think
they are kept for particular reasons.
00:03:00:05 - 00:03:02:09
And we can
we can talk about that in a moment.
00:03:02:09 - 00:03:06:12
So a good example of that would be,
inheritance concerns.
00:03:06:17 - 00:03:09:06
So if you read the Book of Joshua,
for example,
00:03:09:06 - 00:03:12:05
it's clear that allotments of land
were given to certain tribes.
00:03:12:05 - 00:03:13:19
And if you knew, if you wanted to know
00:03:13:19 - 00:03:16:20
whether you had a share in that allotment,
you would need to know what tribe
00:03:16:20 - 00:03:18:01
you were from.
00:03:18:01 - 00:03:21:02
And that issue becomes important too
in, in, say, Nehemiah,
00:03:21:02 - 00:03:24:21
when people are returning
from exile and, and, and some people
00:03:25:08 - 00:03:26:22
can't serve as priests or Levites
00:03:26:22 - 00:03:30:20
because they can't demonstrate that,
that they are in the line.
00:03:30:21 - 00:03:31:20
Yeah. That's right.
00:03:31:20 - 00:03:33:02
And in the Jubilee cycle.
00:03:33:02 - 00:03:35:12
Oh, sure. Yeah.
00:03:35:12 - 00:03:38:12
In the list of names
that I'm aware of in the ancient near
00:03:38:12 - 00:03:40:06
east, for me, particularly Mesopotamia.
00:03:41:13 - 00:03:42:02
I'm not thinking so
00:03:42:02 - 00:03:45:02
much of Egypt or Anatolia.
00:03:45:06 - 00:03:47:08
They tend to be for, for other reasons.
00:03:47:08 - 00:03:50:22
So, maybe the best known example
from Mesopotamia
00:03:50:22 - 00:03:54:18
of a list of names or a genealogy
would be the Assyrian King List.
00:03:55:15 - 00:03:59:04
Which gives well at least the impression of an unbroken
00:03:59:04 - 00:04:02:13
line of Assyrian kings going back
to the early second millennium BC.
00:04:03:00 - 00:04:05:08
Over 100 names.
00:04:05:08 - 00:04:07:17
And it seems likely that
at least from a king
00:04:07:17 - 00:04:12:10
called Adasi in the first half
of the second millennium BC, there was a
00:04:12:10 - 00:04:16:09
more or less unbroken line of of kings,
not from father to son necessarily.
00:04:16:09 - 00:04:18:04
It's not, it's clear that,
00:04:18:04 - 00:04:21:04
you didn't have to be
the son of the previous king to be king.
00:04:22:17 - 00:04:25:07
But at least within the same family.
00:04:25:07 - 00:04:30:06
And it seems that that list was,
was meant to, yeah, both kind of project
00:04:30:06 - 00:04:33:15
that sense of continuity over time,
but also kind of keep track of,
00:04:35:04 - 00:04:37:00
well, it reflects,
00:04:37:00 - 00:04:41:14
consideration of records
from royal inscriptions
00:04:41:14 - 00:04:46:14
to, lists of years, calendars
and so on, of kings
00:04:46:14 - 00:04:49:21
to establish the number of years
that kings reigned and that sort of thing.
00:04:50:09 - 00:04:54:03
So it had at least partly an ideological
purpose, an ideological goal.
00:04:55:03 - 00:04:57:24
So you can see there that there's a reason
for keeping the list.
00:04:57:24 - 00:04:58:13
And that reason
00:04:58:13 - 00:05:01:17
appears to be different than the name lists
that we have in the Bible.
00:05:01:17 - 00:05:04:17
Those have different aims
they’re driven by different things.
00:05:04:23 - 00:05:07:23
I think it's important to keep
in mind difference as well as
00:05:07:23 - 00:05:10:23
continuity when we compare these things.
00:05:11:00 - 00:05:13:11
Just because you see genealogy
in the title of an article
00:05:13:11 - 00:05:15:08
that publishes an ancient tablet
00:05:15:08 - 00:05:17:23
with lists of names doesn't necessarily
mean it's the same thing
00:05:17:23 - 00:05:20:19
as we find in Genesis or Chronicles.
T: Right. Yeah, sure.
00:05:21:20 - 00:05:23:07
That's a very, very helpful
00:05:23:07 - 00:05:25:03
introduction.
00:05:25:03 - 00:05:29:00
You said we should touch on the definition
of a genealogy.
00:05:29:11 - 00:05:30:17
Yeah.
00:05:30:17 - 00:05:33:17
So, my, you know, my
00:05:33:20 - 00:05:36:24
very basic definition of a genealogy
is that it's a, a
00:05:37:05 - 00:05:40:08
list of parental parents
00:05:40:08 - 00:05:43:14
and children, parents and children
going down through the generations.
00:05:44:10 - 00:05:46:15
Is it more complicated than that?
00:05:46:15 - 00:05:49:12
That's the essence of all of them,
isn't it?
00:05:49:12 - 00:05:51:18
A distinction often made,
which I think is a helpful
00:05:51:18 - 00:05:52:11
one is,
00:05:52:11 - 00:05:56:00
and this brings us to the difference
between the Bible and other sources,
00:05:56:11 - 00:06:00:12
is the distinction between
what people call a linear genealogy,
00:06:01:08 - 00:06:03:17
and a segmented genealogy.
00:06:03:17 - 00:06:09:09
So linear I sometimes call vertical
A fathered, B fathered, C fathered D
00:06:09:09 - 00:06:12:12
So you’re just tracing a single family line down.
00:06:12:12 - 00:06:15:16
So from Adam to
Noah or from Noah to Abraham. Whoever.
00:06:16:16 - 00:06:17:15
Segmented, which
00:06:17:15 - 00:06:20:15
I sometimes call horizontal is sort of,
00:06:20:17 - 00:06:24:23
A had six sons who were BCDEFG.
00:06:25:03 - 00:06:26:08
That was six.
00:06:26:08 - 00:06:29:07
And then it will zoom
in often on one of those,
00:06:29:07 - 00:06:33:12
or then explore the family tree of B
and then next of C
T: Right
00:06:33:18 - 00:06:36:13
Not necessarily doing all of them, but
00:06:36:13 - 00:06:39:13
the idea of that seems to be,
as far as I can tell,
00:06:39:24 - 00:06:42:07
sort of charting out theologically,
00:06:42:07 - 00:06:45:07
if you like, how the, how,
00:06:46:01 - 00:06:50:00
a father is filling out
a particular geographical area.
00:06:50:01 - 00:06:50:24
So a classic example
00:06:50:24 - 00:06:55:15
would be the table of nations, we often call it the table of nations.
00:06:55:15 - 00:06:55:22
Don't we?
00:06:55:22 - 00:06:57:15
But actually it's just a
00:06:57:15 - 00:07:01:20
genealogy, its a list of sons
as far as the text is concerned.
00:07:01:20 - 00:07:04:21
T: Yeah, this is Genesis 10?
J: Yes. Sorry. Yeah, yeah.
00:07:05:10 - 00:07:08:02
And so this is showing how Noah's
00:07:08:02 - 00:07:11:02
sons, Shem, Ham and Japheth,
00:07:11:10 - 00:07:15:16
are giving rise to other nations
and sort of filling out the world around,
00:07:16:17 - 00:07:18:08
around the biblical story, you know.
00:07:18:08 - 00:07:18:19
Right.
00:07:18:19 - 00:07:22:18
And so that's an example of a
of a segmented or a horizontal genealogy,
00:07:22:18 - 00:07:26:21
because we, we look at each son
in turn and their descendants. Yep.
00:07:26:22 - 00:07:31:20
And that is what, to my knowledge
at least, is very unique to Scripture.
00:07:32:19 - 00:07:37:21
You get it a little bit in late
Arabic works and so on with.
00:07:38:00 - 00:07:42:24
But even there, people are largely
trying to reconstruct genealogies
00:07:42:24 - 00:07:46:21
and you, sorry,
reconstruct segmented genealogies.
00:07:46:21 - 00:07:48:12
And you can do that.
00:07:48:12 - 00:07:51:15
I've done that with quite a lot of old Arabic
inscriptions, taken
00:07:51:15 - 00:07:57:06
a lot of sort of linear genealogies
and compiled them into horizontal ones.
00:07:57:18 - 00:08:00:07
But the Bible actually sets out
to document
00:08:00:07 - 00:08:05:03
these horizontal genealogies,
and that seems very unique to me.
00:08:06:08 - 00:08:08:08
So what's behind that?
00:08:08:08 - 00:08:09:18
Well, partly the geographical issue.
00:08:09:18 - 00:08:11:15
That's Genesis 10.
00:08:11:15 - 00:08:12:24
But you can see it also in,
00:08:14:07 - 00:08:15:07
for example, highlighting
00:08:15:07 - 00:08:18:07
a particular character. So,
00:08:18:08 - 00:08:21:08
so in Exodus three, for example,
sorry, Exodus six, for example,
00:08:21:08 - 00:08:24:09
we have the, the genealogy of Moses
and Aaron.
00:08:25:01 - 00:08:25:07
Right.
00:08:25:07 - 00:08:29:03
And it starts out at the beginning
of Jacob's sons and goes down to Levi
00:08:29:03 - 00:08:33:03
and then fleshes out
Moses and Aaron's genealogy and stops.
00:08:33:03 - 00:08:35:20
We don't get the rest of Jacob sons.
00:08:35:20 - 00:08:39:03
So that seems to be an example
of highlighting these characters.
00:08:39:10 - 00:08:40:11
And then the text continues.
00:08:40:11 - 00:08:41:19
This was the Moses and Aaron
00:08:41:19 - 00:08:45:12
who were speaking to Pharaoh and leading
the people of Israel out of slavery.
00:08:45:12 - 00:08:47:03
And so on and so
00:08:47:03 - 00:08:50:03
the idea in that case is to highlight
a character,
00:08:50:15 - 00:08:53:06
in Genesis,
00:08:53:06 - 00:08:55:00
pretty much every major character
00:08:55:00 - 00:08:58:24
gets a genealogy, in Genesis,
they're called toledoths right
00:08:58:24 - 00:09:01:00
the generations
of, these are the generations of
00:09:01:00 - 00:09:04:07
And the book of Genesis is kind of
structured around these ten toledoth,
00:09:05:15 - 00:09:07:08
lists, not always lists, actually.
00:09:07:08 - 00:09:09:21
Sometimes you get well often you get
this is the toledoth,
00:09:09:21 - 00:09:11:20
This is generations of Terah.
00:09:11:20 - 00:09:14:16
These are the generations
of of Shem or whatever.
00:09:14:16 - 00:09:16:17
And sometimes those are followed
by genealogies.
00:09:16:17 - 00:09:19:20
In other cases, they're followed
by stories about the children
00:09:20:12 - 00:09:23:04
of that character, about this person.
00:09:23:04 - 00:09:25:14
So, yeah, this may be
00:09:25:14 - 00:09:29:10
this is a digression,
but but it's one of the curious things
00:09:29:10 - 00:09:33:08
there is that the first toledoth
is, is, Genesis
00:09:33:08 - 00:09:36:08
2:4
00:09:36:18 - 00:09:37:24
Referring to the heavens in the earth.
00:09:37:24 - 00:09:41:22
This is the generations of the heavens
and the earth, that doesn't seem
00:09:41:22 - 00:09:45:19
to be about descendants in an obvious way.
00:09:45:19 - 00:09:46:09
Yeah.
00:09:46:09 - 00:09:49:18
I mean, maybe you disagree, but I
it seems to me that
00:09:49:18 - 00:09:54:09
that is an extension of the idea
of toledoth to a kind of history
00:09:54:09 - 00:09:58:14
notion or a story
about the past kind of notion. So,
00:09:59:17 - 00:10:01:19
I mean, there is the descent,
00:10:01:19 - 00:10:04:23
the fact that Adam descends from God
in a sense, he bears the image of God,
00:10:04:23 - 00:10:07:23
and then he produces Seth,
who is in his own image, and so on.
00:10:08:13 - 00:10:11:11
So well, that's true. That's clear.
00:10:11:11 - 00:10:16:09
But I think that even with people,
when people are given a genealogy
00:10:16:09 - 00:10:18:15
and it's sort of headed by toledoth
00:10:18:15 - 00:10:21:03
it's not just the family relationships
that matter.
00:10:21:03 - 00:10:24:12
It's the stories about the family, stories
about the people in the family,
00:10:24:12 - 00:10:27:02
how they relate to the overall plot
of Scripture.
00:10:27:02 - 00:10:29:01
Yeah, great.
00:10:29:01 - 00:10:31:00
So we have these genealogies for,
00:10:31:00 - 00:10:34:09
for theological purposes
that the Bible is, is not
00:10:35:11 - 00:10:38:11
just random collection of stuff.
00:10:38:13 - 00:10:41:07
We believe that the three of us here,
00:10:41:07 - 00:10:44:07
as we believe in Tyndale House
that God is behind Scripture.
00:10:44:07 - 00:10:47:06
And is the ultimate author of it. So
00:10:49:03 - 00:10:52:03
God wants us to have these genealogies
for some reason,
00:10:52:17 - 00:10:57:01
yet it can be quite hard work when you hit
the beginning of Chronicles or whatever,
00:10:57:01 - 00:11:00:18
and you've just got
all of these people and lists and
00:11:03:03 - 00:11:06:03
why do we really need this?
00:11:06:09 - 00:11:07:20
I mean, lots of
00:11:07:20 - 00:11:10:23
Chronicles is drawing on earlier
material, isn't it?
00:11:10:23 - 00:11:15:15
And so a lot of it already
appears in Genesis, some in Exodus,
00:11:15:15 - 00:11:16:22
some in other books.
00:11:16:22 - 00:11:19:15
And the Chronicles is bringing that together.
00:11:19:15 - 00:11:23:19
And in answer to question
why we've got it in these earlier books,
00:11:23:19 - 00:11:27:18
I think part of the point
is just the fundamentally interconnected
00:11:27:19 - 00:11:30:04
nature of the biblical narrative.
00:11:30:04 - 00:11:36:00
I mean, the Bible is a remarkable
book, uniquely in ancient literature.
00:11:36:00 - 00:11:39:01
It's giving us this coherent narrative,
00:11:39:10 - 00:11:42:08
a kind of continuous
00:11:42:08 - 00:11:47:15
flow over time, where you can go
all the way from Adam counting years
00:11:47:15 - 00:11:53:04
if you want to, all the way up, at least
till the exile, with no real blank spots
00:11:53:11 - 00:11:54:04
in it, you know?
T: Right
00:11:55:03 - 00:11:56:24
you've got the odd little
00:11:56:24 - 00:11:59:24
black box,
if you like, between sort of Exodus
00:12:00:12 - 00:12:03:03
1:1 and what follows, you know,
00:12:03:03 - 00:12:06:03
where you've got kind of this
long period in,
00:12:06:05 - 00:12:09:16
Egypt where almost a curtain is drawn over it.
00:12:09:16 - 00:12:13:17
But even that in Chronicles
is connected up with genealogies.
00:12:13:19 - 00:12:17:15
And, and so part of the purpose
is that when you meet characters
00:12:17:15 - 00:12:22:00
in Scripture, you've normally got a
background against which we can put them.
00:12:22:00 - 00:12:27:07
And so when Israel appear in the land
and they get raided by the Midianites
00:12:27:07 - 00:12:28:09
or something, you can say, well,
00:12:28:09 - 00:12:31:14
I know these people,
you know, these descend from Abraham.
00:12:31:14 - 00:12:35:10
And so they're related to the promised,
but not directly
00:12:36:20 - 00:12:38:04
inheritors of it.
00:12:38:04 - 00:12:41:24
And so they’re sort of stealing. They’re
being numerous rather than Israel,
00:12:41:24 - 00:12:43:10
and you can put together things.
00:12:43:10 - 00:12:47:17
And so, yeah, there's a, there's a context
to everything isn’t there, in Scripture
00:12:47:17 - 00:12:52:09
and the genealogies are kind of fundamentally what create that
T: that's really helpful
00:12:53:11 - 00:12:54:02
Do you want to talk about
00:12:54:02 - 00:12:57:02
some specific genealogies?
00:12:58:24 - 00:13:01:20
Do you want to talk about some specific
genealogies?
00:13:01:20 - 00:13:04:20
Well, let's pick one that I think is,
00:13:04:21 - 00:13:07:21
kind of a helpful phenomenon
and a surprising
00:13:08:05 - 00:13:11:19
phenomenon of genealogies,
which I was quite surprised at.
00:13:11:19 - 00:13:16:04
So, I mean, I was looking
just before we came at the way
00:13:16:04 - 00:13:19:18
in which sometimes you can see two people,
00:13:19:18 - 00:13:20:13
let’s call them people,
00:13:20:13 - 00:13:24:13
I think they refer to territories,
but you can find sort of people who jump
00:13:24:13 - 00:13:28:23
from one genealogy to another,
and that might be odd
00:13:28:23 - 00:13:32:22
to us, might kind of challenge
our notion of a genealogy to some extent.
00:13:32:22 - 00:13:35:17
So we thought about the table of nations,
as I say.
00:13:35:17 - 00:13:38:17
So this is Genesis 10 and
00:13:38:18 - 00:13:40:14
they are sons effectively.
00:13:40:14 - 00:13:41:19
So in where are we?
00:13:41:19 - 00:13:46:08
10:7, we get the sons of Kush,
the sons of Ethiopia.
00:13:46:08 - 00:13:47:12
We commonly,
00:13:47:12 - 00:13:52:01
call that and we get this lists, Seba, Havilah, Sabtah and etc.
00:13:52:08 - 00:13:55:08
and then it gets to this, son, Raamah
00:13:55:20 - 00:13:58:17
And then afterwards,
at the end of the verse,
00:13:58:17 - 00:14:04:02
you get two further
sons of Raamah who are Sheba
00:14:04:02 - 00:14:05:05
and Dedan, now
00:14:06:04 - 00:14:08:10
those are well known countries.
00:14:08:10 - 00:14:12:18
We call them countries
that still exist in South Arabia now.
00:14:12:18 - 00:14:18:03
And so it seems that they are
sons of this place:
00:14:18:03 - 00:14:19:02
Raamah
00:14:19:02 - 00:14:22:23
But then in, now, let’s hope I can find it.
00:14:22:23 - 00:14:25:23
Where is Keturah? Genesis 25.
00:14:26:10 - 00:14:29:10
In Keturah's genealogy,
00:14:32:06 - 00:14:35:06
Abraham . . .
Or the writer is sort of going through
00:14:35:06 - 00:14:40:23
we get this initial list of, one, two,
three, four, five, six sons Zimran,
00:14:40:23 - 00:14:43:17
Jokshan, and so forth.
00:14:43:17 - 00:14:46:14
Then we sort of dive into
00:14:46:14 - 00:14:49:14
in verse three, Jokshan’s descendants
00:14:49:14 - 00:14:54:10
and they include these same two, Sheba
and Dedan. Now
00:14:55:15 - 00:14:57:22
it seems, therefore, that we've gone from
00:14:57:22 - 00:15:03:04
sort of these two people countries
being descendants of Ethiopia,
00:15:03:10 - 00:15:07:02
if you like, to being descendants of
00:15:07:15 - 00:15:10:18
Jokshan and of Keturah and of these
00:15:11:01 - 00:15:15:14
at least associated with these people
who Genesis called ‘sons of the East’. And
00:15:16:13 - 00:15:19:20
this is a
kind of shift that we see in inscriptions.
00:15:19:20 - 00:15:24:03
So Sabaic inscriptions refer to actually
00:15:24:04 - 00:15:28:02
a region
that sounds very much like Raamah as
00:15:28:11 - 00:15:31:23
being in control of the kings
of these two places:
00:15:32:01 - 00:15:35:24
Sheba and Dedan
and so we do get them associated
00:15:35:24 - 00:15:39:19
with Ethiopia in some very ancient texts.
00:15:40:22 - 00:15:45:01
But then it seems that what's
being reflected here is that these two
00:15:46:02 - 00:15:48:18
territories, I'm going to call them or,
you know, that
00:15:48:18 - 00:15:52:08
Sheba and Dedan could have been
their literal ancestors as well.
00:15:52:08 - 00:15:56:04
You know, I'm not averse to that,
but it seems that what the text is
00:15:56:04 - 00:16:00:03
reflecting is a later time
where they're more closely
00:16:00:07 - 00:16:05:22
associated with Keturah’s descendants
than they are with Ethiopia.
00:16:05:22 - 00:16:08:10
And that kind of makes sense.
00:16:08:10 - 00:16:11:10
I mean, they're situated
across the Red sea,
00:16:11:20 - 00:16:16:15
and that area of Ethiopia has very strong
links with the areas over in
00:16:17:19 - 00:16:19:13
Saudi Arabia and,
00:16:19:13 - 00:16:23:22
South Arabia, rather, even to the extent
of using the same scripts,
00:16:24:00 - 00:16:28:00
having a material cultural connection
and so on.
00:16:28:17 - 00:16:31:04
And it seems that at some point
00:16:31:04 - 00:16:34:04
they're becoming more closely
associated with kind of,
00:16:35:14 - 00:16:38:23
yeah, the Keturahites than with the Ethiopians.
00:16:40:01 - 00:16:42:01
That's very interesting.
00:16:42:01 - 00:16:44:02
So you're
00:16:44:02 - 00:16:47:02
you're seeing these names
00:16:47:09 - 00:16:50:01
in, in both of these genealogies
00:16:50:01 - 00:16:52:14
as primarily places
00:16:52:14 - 00:16:55:15
rather than people,
but those are not incompatible.
00:16:56:04 - 00:16:59:04
But it can't be that,
00:17:00:00 - 00:17:03:00
that Raamah is the father of
00:17:03:04 - 00:17:06:04
of the original Sheba
00:17:06:08 - 00:17:09:08
and Dedan, and that Jokshan is.
00:17:09:17 - 00:17:11:08
So how do we how do we square that?
00:17:11:08 - 00:17:12:06
Yeah, exactly.
00:17:12:06 - 00:17:14:19
And this is a way of squaring it.
00:17:14:19 - 00:17:18:20
And I mean, an interesting thing
to note later in that verse, in 25:3
00:17:19:00 - 00:17:22:15
we get that Dedan referred to and his sons
00:17:22:15 - 00:17:27:05
include Asshurites, Letushites and Leummites
00:17:27:05 - 00:17:30:07
So these are plurals, you know, these these
00:17:30:07 - 00:17:34:19
are . . . sound like they’re describing groups of people
rather than a individual son
00:17:34:19 - 00:17:38:22
who had the name Asshurim so there’s sort something to think about there.
00:17:38:22 - 00:17:44:08
But I think more generally there's
the notion of kin, kinship to think about.
00:17:44:08 - 00:17:48:22
And so we’re going to talk about lists, possibly,
if I ever shut up and we get on to it.
00:17:48:22 - 00:17:52:02
But in some lists of Ezra's list,
00:17:52:02 - 00:17:55:16
for instance,
people can be Sons of Bethlehem. Yes.
00:17:55:17 - 00:17:59:15
And they're inhabitants of, people
could be daughters of Zion.
00:17:59:15 - 00:18:04:03
and they say, this idea of kinship
can be used quite flexibly.
00:18:04:03 - 00:18:08:19
Someone could be, a father of Gibeon
if they're the founder
00:18:08:19 - 00:18:10:13
of the town of Gibeon.
00:18:10:13 - 00:18:15:04
And so I guess I'm
I'm seeing an oddity in these two.
00:18:15:04 - 00:18:15:20
As you're saying,
00:18:15:20 - 00:18:19:03
Raamah can't be the father of them,
and Jokshan be the father of them.
00:18:19:03 - 00:18:22:08
So I'm seeing an oddity in the text.
00:18:22:17 - 00:18:26:15
I'm then sort of thinking
about some extra biblical references
00:18:26:15 - 00:18:30:06
to these two territories,
and then I'm thinking about the kind of
00:18:30:06 - 00:18:34:08
generality of the biblical notion
of a kinship, and then putting together,
00:18:35:01 - 00:18:37:11
a possible account of what's happened.
00:18:37:11 - 00:18:40:04
Yeah. Okay. That's very helpful.
00:18:40:04 - 00:18:43:13
I mean, worth thinking about, kind
of social structure just a little bit.
00:18:43:13 - 00:18:44:05
Right? They,
00:18:46:11 - 00:18:47:00
they clearly
00:18:47:00 - 00:18:50:00
had this
kind of segmented social structure.
00:18:50:02 - 00:18:54:10
Like the ‘house of the father’ was
a kind of basic, aspect of that bet av
00:18:55:23 - 00:18:58:23
and then that was part of a,
a larger group,
00:18:59:01 - 00:19:03:07
a clan, a mishpacha I think is probably the term
00:19:03:07 - 00:19:07:08
and then kind of above that,
you have tribes, mateh, shevet
00:19:07:11 - 00:19:10:11
And, and then you have the people the ‘am
00:19:10:18 - 00:19:12:21
or in this case, or
00:19:12:21 - 00:19:15:21
in many cases, the beney Israel
the sons of Israel.
00:19:16:08 - 00:19:19:10
So at every level
that's thought about in kinship terms,
00:19:19:10 - 00:19:22:13
not in sort of Nation—, not purely
at least in sort of nationalistic
00:19:22:13 - 00:19:25:13
terms or political terms,
but in kinship terms.
00:19:25:19 - 00:19:28:04
And this is shot
through the whole society.
00:19:28:04 - 00:19:30:15
So when you think about these
relationships you can think of it,
00:19:30:15 - 00:19:33:22
it feels like you can think about them
corporately as well as individually.
00:19:34:20 - 00:19:36:15
You can see that also in Genesis 10,
00:19:37:14 - 00:19:39:10
in Genesis 10:15, right.
00:19:39:10 - 00:19:43:06
It says Canaan, Canaan brought forth Sidon
his first born and Heth
00:19:43:06 - 00:19:47:05
But then in verse 16
it shifts to these Gentilics right.
00:19:47:05 - 00:19:52:04
The Jebusites, the Amorites, the Girgashites, the Hivites, the Arkites, the Sinites, and so on.
00:19:52:04 - 00:19:56:00
And it gives the whole list as a series
of, what we call Gentilics, right?
00:19:56:01 - 00:19:59:01
‘ites’ ivites, and so on.
00:19:59:04 - 00:20:04:03
Not, not not referring to people as such. Or rather . . .
T: Can you just define Gentilics
00:20:04:17 - 00:20:06:19
Yeah. Referring to a people group.
00:20:06:19 - 00:20:07:17
T: Okay. Yeah.
00:20:07:17 - 00:20:10:05
Yeah. Right. Sorry. Carry on.
C: So like, yeah.
00:20:10:05 - 00:20:14:24
The Ammonite as opposed to Amon,
the Moabite as opposed to Moab and so on.
00:20:15:00 - 00:20:16:08
Yep. Yep.
00:20:16:08 - 00:20:18:09
C: That can be
J: Ammonite is actually the beney Ammon
00:20:18:09 - 00:20:20:04
It can be framed as the sons of.
00:20:20:04 - 00:20:21:06
Right. Ammonite. Yeah.
00:20:21:06 - 00:20:24:24
It is often translated as yeah as such,
but it's it's it's
00:20:24:24 - 00:20:27:03
Beney-Ammon
00:20:27:03 - 00:20:29:15
Whereas in other cases you may have
I don't know if you do.
00:20:29:15 - 00:20:30:19
Do you ever have Ammoni
00:20:31:19 - 00:20:32:18
Moabi?
00:20:32:18 - 00:20:34:18
J: I think . . .
you certainly have. . .
J: You never have an Ammoni.
00:20:34:18 - 00:20:38:08
So you have this ‘e’ on the end
that indicates the same thing essentially,
00:20:38:20 - 00:20:40:11
as Benei ‘sons’.
00:20:40:11 - 00:20:42:18
T: Yes
C: it indicates membership in a group.
00:20:42:18 - 00:20:43:14
a collective.
00:20:43:14 - 00:20:44:21
You might have an ammonitess.
00:20:44:21 - 00:20:47:16
I think, among Solomon’s wives [1 Kings 11:1].
00:20:47:16 - 00:20:49:23
J: I think that's probably the only exception.
C: Yeah.
00:20:49:23 - 00:20:54:01
So all this list in 10:16, Genesis 10:16
has that ending.
00:20:54:02 - 00:20:56:18
Jebusi, the Jebusites, Amori, the Ammonites
00:20:56:18 - 00:20:57:01
Right.
00:20:57:01 - 00:21:01:11
And so on. So it's all kind of related in kinship terms.
00:21:02:00 - 00:21:03:18
And that's part of this genealogy.
00:21:03:18 - 00:21:06:16
So when we read these genealogies,
00:21:06:16 - 00:21:09:04
we have to recognize
that their corporate component is there.
00:21:09:04 - 00:21:12:08
However,
you kind of work out the mechanics of its
00:21:12:11 - 00:21:15:11
unfolding in history.
00:21:15:22 - 00:21:17:01
C: It's there.
T: Yeah.
00:21:17:01 - 00:21:18:19
So there's . . .this is very helpful.
00:21:18:19 - 00:21:23:01
So there's a, a corporate component
that we need to include at least
00:21:24:00 - 00:21:25:11
at least sometimes
00:21:25:11 - 00:21:28:11
there may be some genealogies that are
00:21:28:20 - 00:21:31:02
that are much more,
00:21:31:02 - 00:21:33:13
individualistic for want of a better term.
00:21:33:13 - 00:21:34:10
Yeah.
00:21:34:10 - 00:21:38:02
But some of these particularly
these earlier ones, are quite corporate.
00:21:38:10 - 00:21:41:14
And the notion of fathering
00:21:42:02 - 00:21:45:09
is a broader term perhaps, or. . .
00:21:45:10 - 00:21:48:18
C: Yes sure, corresponding to the corporate level
T: it's evoking kinship
00:21:48:18 - 00:21:52:11
in some sense
it’s not necessarily about this person
00:21:52:11 - 00:21:56:06
Is is is this person's biological father.
00:21:56:18 - 00:21:59:18
And we see that don't we,
in other places. So,
00:22:01:03 - 00:22:05:13
Belshazzar in in Daniel 6,
when the Queen mother comes
00:22:05:13 - 00:22:08:13
in, she talks about your father,
the king referring to Nebuchadnezzar.
00:22:09:00 - 00:22:12:04
But we know that Nebuchadnezzar
was not Belshazzar’s father,
00:22:12:09 - 00:22:15:09
but he was his predecessor.
00:22:15:15 - 00:22:17:01
You don’t . . .
00:22:17:01 - 00:22:17:07
Yeah.
00:22:17:07 - 00:22:21:13
C: I suppose the I suppose the father idea, can have a broader sense . . .
T: Caleb’s looking sceptical
00:22:21:13 - 00:22:23:12
C: Yeah. I mean, that's a tricky thing, but . . .
T: Okay.
00:22:24:22 - 00:22:26:07
It’s a vexed example isn’t it?
00:22:26:07 - 00:22:28:08
C: Yeah, it is
T: Yeah alright, fair enough, fair enough.
00:22:28:08 - 00:22:32:05
I mean, even in English thinking,
you can refer to a sister town
00:22:32:05 - 00:22:34:14
or a sister village
or something like that.
00:22:34:14 - 00:22:37:14
And in Chronicles, we get references to,
00:22:38:02 - 00:22:41:13
a particular territory,
and then it will say something like
00:22:41:21 - 00:22:46:10
umigrasheha and it's, pasture lands with uvenoteha
00:22:46:14 - 00:22:50:23
and its daughters, which presumably means
it's satellite cities?
00:22:50:23 - 00:22:53:06
C: Yeah, exactly.
J: Villages, something like that.
00:22:53:06 - 00:22:56:19
There's actually a theory in anthropology
and archaeology that talks about
00:22:57:00 - 00:23:00:07
centre and periphery and the idea
that there would be a central city
00:23:00:07 - 00:23:04:16
that's often larger, often walled
and so on in the ancient world,
00:23:05:01 - 00:23:06:14
and then little villages around it
00:23:06:14 - 00:23:09:17
that are dependent upon it
economically and socially and so on.
00:23:10:09 - 00:23:13:07
And so I often take those daughter
cities to be a bit like that.
00:23:14:07 - 00:23:15:18
Sennacherib talks about the fact
00:23:15:18 - 00:23:19:02
that he comes to Judah
and takes over all these cities,
00:23:19:16 - 00:23:22:20
and then he talks about little ones
and big ones, and that sort of thing.
00:23:22:20 - 00:23:25:09
Well, and walled cities as well.
00:23:25:09 - 00:23:27:18
So he's distinguishing
between types of cities. But yeah.
00:23:27:18 - 00:23:30:00
So you can have this metaphor
extended to all sorts of things.
00:23:30:00 - 00:23:33:24
It's the sort of there's
a, there's a book, by David Schloen
00:23:33:24 - 00:23:36:24
called ‘The House of the Father
As Fact and Symbol’
00:23:38:04 - 00:23:39:18
And he's getting at this
very issue, right?
00:23:39:18 - 00:23:42:09
In the ancient world,
it was very common to use kinship
00:23:42:09 - 00:23:45:09
terms and the House of the father
as a basic element of that,
00:23:45:09 - 00:23:47:02
as a way to think about all manner of things.
00:23:47:02 - 00:23:50:20
And you could use it to even
you could even apply it to a nation state,
00:23:51:03 - 00:23:53:00
kind of a state
00:23:53:00 - 00:23:56:20
where the king is the father of everyone
in the, in the country.
00:23:56:21 - 00:23:57:16
Right.
00:23:57:16 - 00:24:00:16
So that yeah,
but that metaphor is quite common.
00:24:00:22 - 00:24:04:23
One of the helpful things I think about
that is I often used to read Chronicles.
00:24:04:23 - 00:24:06:20
And I would think to myself, well,
00:24:06:20 - 00:24:10:05
there are perhaps almost a million Judahites or something.
00:24:10:05 - 00:24:12:19
Why have we got this list in Chronicles?
00:24:12:19 - 00:24:17:01
And it's just picked out
one particular guy who has five sons,
00:24:17:01 - 00:24:20:16
and then it's followed up some of those
and not others, like, what's the
00:24:20:22 - 00:24:21:23
purpose of that? And
00:24:23:00 - 00:24:24:22
arguably he's not doing that.
00:24:24:22 - 00:24:30:18
It's showing the organization of Judah
at a given point in time,
00:24:30:18 - 00:24:36:23
and it's showing a five fold division
into five major clans, etc., you know, and
00:24:36:23 - 00:24:40:11
and sometimes you will get unusually
00:24:40:11 - 00:24:43:24
conflicting genealogies, in Chronicles—
00:24:44:01 - 00:24:47:17
J: I mean, we could jump into one of them if,
if, if we’ve got . . .?
T: Feel free
00:24:47:22 - 00:24:49:21
So, I mean,
00:24:49:21 - 00:24:52:21
Benjamin is a nice example. So,
00:24:54:02 - 00:24:54:19
if I can find it.
00:24:54:19 - 00:24:58:03
So, 1 Chronicles 7, is it?
00:25:00:17 - 00:25:02:15
so we're get Numbers 26,
00:25:02:15 - 00:25:08:08
a list of Benjamin's clans,
and think that there are seven of them
00:25:08:08 - 00:25:12:20
there, there are two subclans
and five main clans,
00:25:13:23 - 00:25:17:12
in, I'm looking for the sons of Benjamin
somewhere,
00:25:17:12 - 00:25:20:12
verse 6 of 1 Chronicles 7,
00:25:20:23 - 00:25:23:16
we get the Benjaminites, etc.
00:25:23:16 - 00:25:26:00
Bela, Beker, etc.
00:25:26:24 - 00:25:27:20
Three.
00:25:27:20 - 00:25:30:21
And so we've got sort of three clans
mentioned there.
00:25:31:08 - 00:25:34:08
But then if you go on to chapter 8.
00:25:34:14 - 00:25:38:02
You have Benjamin in verse one.
00:25:38:20 - 00:25:42:12
He begets Bela, his firstborn.
00:25:43:05 - 00:25:46:11
Ashbel, his second born, Aharah his third.
00:25:46:11 - 00:25:49:21
So they’re numbered all the way
up to a fifth born,
00:25:49:22 - 00:25:53:02
you know, and
and so you've got this oddity.
00:25:53:02 - 00:25:56:22
I mean, you can say it includes two
extra people, but then why number them?
00:25:56:22 - 00:25:59:24
as 3 in 1 Chronicles 7?
00:25:59:24 - 00:26:01:17
And why do we have different names?
00:26:01:17 - 00:26:05:19
And I think a plausible reason is to say
this is showing
00:26:06:06 - 00:26:09:15
the organization of Benjamin's
clan, Benjamin's
00:26:09:15 - 00:26:13:11
internal hierarchy, if you like,
at two different points in time.
00:26:13:19 - 00:26:16:07
Now, Benjamin's a slight outlier.
00:26:16:07 - 00:26:19:07
Its clan structure changes more than most,
00:26:19:21 - 00:26:23:07
but we've got a nice explanation of that
in the narrative.
00:26:23:10 - 00:26:26:13
Benjamin is almost entirely exterminated
00:26:26:13 - 00:26:29:13
in the war with Gibeon.
00:26:29:21 - 00:26:33:22
And, I think there’s 600 people left.
00:26:34:02 - 00:26:37:21
Then they have to get some sort
of wives from elsewhere, we won’t go into the
00:26:38:19 - 00:26:39:09
detail of . . .
00:26:40:17 - 00:26:43:05
the dubious details of it all
00:26:43:05 - 00:26:46:00
there might be very good
reasons, therefore, why
00:26:46:00 - 00:26:50:07
Benjamin's tribe has gone
through these quite different hierarchies
00:26:50:07 - 00:26:53:22
and layouts over its history
because its had this major kind of,
00:26:55:00 - 00:26:58:11
reworking, repopulation
of its internal divisions.
00:26:58:12 - 00:26:59:16
Interesting.
00:26:59:16 - 00:27:05:01
That view of, a horizontal genealogy
as charting out clans,
00:27:05:13 - 00:27:08:09
I think can give some insight
into what's going on
00:27:08:09 - 00:27:11:10
here, can and can make it
feel a bit less arbitrary, you know?
00:27:11:12 - 00:27:14:12
Yeah, it's not picking out
just random people.
00:27:14:20 - 00:27:17:01
I think that was one of the problems
that many people have when,
00:27:17:01 - 00:27:20:01
when reading these genealogies, that
that it,
00:27:20:23 - 00:27:23:23
it sometimes feels that like they come at
a, at a random point
00:27:24:00 - 00:27:25:00
full of random people.
00:27:25:00 - 00:27:27:14
And what do we do with this, so that’s
00:27:27:14 - 00:27:29:09
Yeah, this is very helpful.
00:27:30:12 - 00:27:32:08
one thing to say, maybe, about just
00:27:32:08 - 00:27:36:06
the overall function of these genealogies
in, in Chronicles is very interesting.
00:27:36:06 - 00:27:40:10
If, it should be worthwhile for listeners
to sit down someday
00:27:40:10 - 00:27:44:05
and just to, can use a Bible software
or something like that
00:27:44:05 - 00:27:48:15
and just read through 1 Chronicles 1
to 9 where you get these genealogies
00:27:49:04 - 00:27:52:08
and then find your way back
to other parts of the Bible
00:27:53:06 - 00:27:54:21
from which these names come.
00:27:54:21 - 00:27:57:21
So you will see, for example,
that 1 Chronicles 1 is
00:27:57:21 - 00:28:01:11
pretty much entirely based on genealogies
in Genesis.
00:28:01:11 - 00:28:05:07
It draws on genealogies in Genesis,
and it needs to be specifically Genesis,
00:28:05:07 - 00:28:06:16
not some other document,
00:28:06:16 - 00:28:10:15
because it quotes Genesis at various
points and modifies it and so on.
00:28:11:03 - 00:28:13:23
Really interesting the degree
to which Chronicles depends
00:28:13:23 - 00:28:17:00
on the rest of the Bible for its content.
00:28:17:19 - 00:28:20:19
And if you continue reading,
then in Chronicles and then into Ezra
00:28:20:19 - 00:28:23:19
and Nehemiah,
you can see how important it was for,
00:28:24:12 - 00:28:26:13
these would be people in the post
exilic-period,
00:28:26:13 - 00:28:29:01
People who had been in
exile were coming back and so on.
00:28:29:01 - 00:28:32:07
This is the period in which Chronicles
and Ezra, Nehemiah were written.
00:28:33:11 - 00:28:36:03
It was really important
to to have these lists of people.
00:28:36:03 - 00:28:39:09
They were central
to the whole return endeavor.
00:28:39:16 - 00:28:42:16
So you mentioned earlier in Ezra,
Nehemiah, the importance of being able
00:28:42:16 - 00:28:46:12
to establish one's family relationships,
to be involved in the, the temple work,
00:28:47:14 - 00:28:49:21
among the Levites.
00:28:49:21 - 00:28:51:16
I assume that the basis
00:28:51:16 - 00:28:54:21
for that kind of search to go
and find out who you were related
00:28:54:21 - 00:29:00:06
to, would be the exact sorts of things
you find in Ezra and in 1 Chronicles 1–9
00:29:00:06 - 00:29:04:11
And in fact, it's really interesting
in, in, 1 Chronicles 9,
00:29:04:12 - 00:29:08:23
in the end, of the genealogies
which go through the tribes
00:29:08:23 - 00:29:13:04
of Israel for the most part,
and then key figures like, like Saul
00:29:13:04 - 00:29:16:06
and the, the tribe of Judah
leading to David and so on.
00:29:17:03 - 00:29:22:11
It says there in [1 Chronicles] 9:1 all Israel was
was registered in the genealogies.
00:29:22:11 - 00:29:25:08
And behold, they're written on the book
of the kings of Israel
00:29:25:08 - 00:29:25:22
and Judah.
00:29:27:21 - 00:29:29:01
And then these people were
00:29:29:01 - 00:29:32:06
taken off to Babylon in exile
for their unfaithfulness.
00:29:32:06 - 00:29:34:14
And, that's just really important.
00:29:34:14 - 00:29:39:18
It seems like that's referring to
to pre-exilic texts that contain these genealogies
00:29:39:18 - 00:29:43:00
and on which these exilic-period people
were drawing when they were,
00:29:44:05 - 00:29:46:03
I suppose, composing this book and,
00:29:46:03 - 00:29:49:21
and also returning to the land.
That matters historically
00:29:49:21 - 00:29:52:23
because these people needed to return
to the land under certain circumstances.
00:29:52:23 - 00:29:55:22
But it also matters
textually in how the text comes together
00:29:55:22 - 00:29:57:13
when we think about the relationship
between them.
00:29:57:13 - 00:30:00:22
I remember someone said to me once, why do
we even have Chronicles in the Bible?
00:30:00:22 - 00:30:01:20
We already have Samuel,
00:30:01:20 - 00:30:05:00
Kings, which is an utterly ridiculous
thing to say.
00:30:06:22 - 00:30:09:10
It's terrible thing to say,
00:30:09:10 - 00:30:13:17
if you feel like saying that, ever
just assume you're wrong and ignorant
00:30:14:20 - 00:30:16:23
and just read the Bible again.
00:30:16:23 - 00:30:19:04
Because it's there for a reason.
T: Tell us what you really think about this.
00:30:19:04 - 00:30:22:00
yeah, yeah, I want to do the same thing.
00:30:22:14 - 00:30:23:22
But like, they are different.
00:30:23:22 - 00:30:25:23
One of the ways that they're different
is that Chronicles
00:30:25:23 - 00:30:27:10
draws in these genealogies.
00:30:27:10 - 00:30:29:24
Yeah, it's really important.
So I think part of it
00:30:29:24 - 00:30:32:24
is probably establishing continuity
between the pre-exilic
00:30:34:14 - 00:30:36:01
people of Israel, as it should have been.
00:30:36:01 - 00:30:39:15
So Chronicles is very intent on calling
Israel Israel, not Israel and Judah.
00:30:40:09 - 00:30:40:20
Yeah.
00:30:40:20 - 00:30:44:05
It does raise that sometimes and use that
Israel, Judah distinction term,
00:30:44:20 - 00:30:45:23
terminology sometimes.
00:30:45:23 - 00:30:50:03
Most of the time it just wants to talk
about Israel as a reunified people group,
00:30:50:22 - 00:30:54:11
presumably in fulfilment
of the rest of the Old Testament
00:30:54:11 - 00:30:56:16
and how God called his people.
00:30:56:16 - 00:30:58:23
And how his people came about.
00:30:58:23 - 00:31:00:24
But the genealogies establish that.
00:31:00:24 - 00:31:01:12
Right, yes.
00:31:01:12 - 00:31:04:11
C: In very concrete terms.
J: Yeah, and in different ways.
00:31:04:11 - 00:31:04:20
Don't they?
00:31:04:20 - 00:31:09:03
So fulfilment is the word you used as its a good word, isn't it?
00:31:09:03 - 00:31:12:03
You know, I mean, you could think of 1 Chronicles 3
00:31:12:12 - 00:31:16:11
particularly, the long list of Israel's kings.
00:31:16:11 - 00:31:18:19
You know, that's a fulfillment of God's
00:31:18:19 - 00:31:23:02
promise to give David a man on the throne,
you know, and it continues
00:31:23:14 - 00:31:27:20
through the exile at the end of,
so after the exile, the line continues.
00:31:27:20 - 00:31:30:03
And so that's one of God's promises.
00:31:30:03 - 00:31:35:10
1 Chronicles 4 then looks to be far more geographical,
00:31:35:16 - 00:31:39:15
you know, it's it's
charting out the various ways in which
00:31:39:15 - 00:31:44:05
the people fill the land of Judah,
the territory that God has given them.
00:31:44:05 - 00:31:46:21
And you can see in certain places,
00:31:46:21 - 00:31:51:05
I'm not sure if I can find one now,
but what looks to be the fathering
00:31:51:05 - 00:31:55:02
of towns and looks to be the kind of the,
00:31:56:01 - 00:31:56:13
where are we?
00:31:56:13 - 00:31:58:02
Where do we get the reference to
T: Um, [chapter 4] verse 5?
00:31:58:02 - 00:32:02:17
T: ‘Ashhur the father of Tekoa’ So we see Tekoa coming up later on don’t we?
J: Yeah, right.
00:32:02:17 - 00:32:06:21
And so it's looking, it's
charting out something different there,
00:32:06:21 - 00:32:11:02
and they're answering it in a, in a sense,
to two different types of promise.
00:32:11:02 - 00:32:12:18
The promise to give Israel the land
00:32:12:18 - 00:32:15:24
and the promise to give David
a man on the, on the throne.
00:32:16:11 - 00:32:17:06
Yeah.
00:32:17:06 - 00:32:20:06
Which all looks ahead
to the New Testament, too, doesn't it?
00:32:20:13 - 00:32:23:01
We need to draw this, conversation
to a close.
00:32:23:01 - 00:32:26:01
Any final thoughts on
00:32:26:01 - 00:32:27:12
on genealogies?
00:32:27:12 - 00:32:30:24
Any final words for people who,
00:32:31:15 - 00:32:34:02
when they're reading the Bible tomorrow,
00:32:34:02 - 00:32:36:13
run into a genealogy
00:32:36:13 - 00:32:39:04
and we want them to keep on going
00:32:39:04 - 00:32:41:16
rather than skipping it?
00:32:41:16 - 00:32:43:17
Well, I a thing that comes to mind
00:32:43:17 - 00:32:47:04
is just the censuses in, in, is that how you say the
plural census?
00:32:47:22 - 00:32:50:15
T: Yeah, that’s fine
C: Censai?
T: No censuses
00:32:50:15 - 00:32:51:24
See, I've just wasted time doing that.
00:32:53:09 - 00:32:54:04
In in Numbers.
00:32:54:04 - 00:32:54:12
Right.
00:32:54:12 - 00:32:59:10
And you have, kind of clan leaders
in that text, which may give some insight
00:32:59:10 - 00:33:03:04
into how this kind
of family relationship thing works.
00:33:04:05 - 00:33:06:21
And then those are picked up on in
later on in the genealogies
00:33:06:21 - 00:33:11:15
in, in 1 Chronicles, so Nahshon,
for example, is a, a leader and
00:33:12:06 - 00:33:15:00
and Judah and he's cited as a chief leader,
00:33:15:00 - 00:33:18:00
a ruler in, in, in Judah.
00:33:18:12 - 00:33:20:06
So, so there are times
00:33:20:06 - 00:33:24:02
where you can infer something
of how the, the house of the father
00:33:24:02 - 00:33:27:20
and the whole family relationship
and how that's corporate and individual,
00:33:28:22 - 00:33:32:01
works out in individual cases, like that.
00:33:32:18 - 00:33:33:16
Yeah.
00:33:33:16 - 00:33:38:07
I think I'd say dig around in genealogies,
see what you can find.
00:33:38:07 - 00:33:40:11
You will find some
just interesting things.
00:33:40:11 - 00:33:46:02
I mean, taking the numbers census
as an example, if you put Genesis 46,
00:33:46:02 - 00:33:50:17
so where it lists Jacob's 70 sons, grandsons, a lot of them.
00:33:51:16 - 00:33:53:04
And if you put it next to Numbers
00:33:53:04 - 00:33:56:19
26 with the census, you'll find that
00:33:57:06 - 00:34:01:03
not every son has gone on
to be the head of a clan.
00:34:01:03 - 00:34:04:08
And so Benjamin might have ten sons in
Genesis.
00:34:04:10 - 00:34:09:05
He does have ten sons in Genesis 46,
but only seven of them become clans.
00:34:09:05 - 00:34:13:00
And if you divide the clan,
00:34:13:12 - 00:34:20:06
the number of sons by the census
number so you know, 41,000 or something.
00:34:20:06 - 00:34:23:06
So the total number for each
00:34:23:07 - 00:34:26:01
tribe of Judah, let's say,
00:34:26:01 - 00:34:29:16
if you sort of divide and work out the average size of a clan,
00:34:29:22 - 00:34:32:22
then clans can be shown to be,
00:34:33:02 - 00:34:36:06
likely to survive according to their size.
00:34:36:06 - 00:34:37:23
So basically the
00:34:37:23 - 00:34:41:18
the larger clan, the more likely
it is to preserve its name over time.
00:34:41:18 - 00:34:44:18
And you can find
just a perfect correlation.
00:34:44:18 - 00:34:47:10
The way it works out
and just digging around like that
00:34:47:10 - 00:34:51:02
with numbers and list of names,
you'll find some nice things.
00:34:51:10 - 00:34:52:15
Brilliant. Gentlemen.
00:34:52:15 - 00:34:54:17
Thank you very much, James, Caleb
00:34:54:18 - 00:34:55:19
And come and join us again soon
00:34:56:22 - 00:35:00:07
Subscribe to this podcast wherever you get your podcasts from
00:35:00:07 - 00:35:01:18
Please rate and review us
00:35:01:18 - 00:35:02:17
because it really helps other
00:35:02:17 - 00:35:05:19
people to know about what's going on
and go and read some genealogies.
00:35:05:23 - 00:35:07:04
Thanks for joining us. Bye bye.