00:00:05:18 - 00:00:06:01
Hello.
00:00:06:01 - 00:00:09:00
Welcome to another
episode of the Tyndale House podcast.
00:00:09:00 - 00:00:10:07
This is episode six [five].
00:00:10:07 - 00:00:15:15
In the second series of names
in the Bible and the ancient World,
00:00:15:15 - 00:00:18:20
which is series 4 overall. Are you
keeping track of where we are in our
00:00:18:20 - 00:00:20:01
podcasts?
00:00:20:01 - 00:00:23:19
And today I'm joined by Peter Williams,
who is Principal of Tyndale House.
00:00:24:05 - 00:00:27:05
And we're going to be talking about names
in the New Testament.
00:00:27:06 - 00:00:31:17
So far in the last series and this series,
our focus has been on names
00:00:31:17 - 00:00:35:19
in the Old Testament, and we’ve just touched
briefly on New Testament names.
00:00:35:19 - 00:00:38:19
But now we're going to
to look a little bit more
00:00:38:19 - 00:00:41:19
at names in the Gospels
and Acts in particular.
00:00:41:21 - 00:00:45:15
And in the next episode,
we've got an episode with, a conversation
00:00:45:15 - 00:00:46:17
with Steve Walton,
00:00:46:17 - 00:00:50:23
particularly looking at Saul and Paul
and the patterns of Roman namings.
00:00:51:23 - 00:00:53:16
So, looking forward to that.
00:00:53:16 - 00:00:56:02
T: So good morning, Peter, good to have you with us
P: Good to be with you
00:00:56:02 - 00:00:58:11
T: nice to get into the New Testament at last.
00:00:58:14 - 00:01:01:12
Absolutely.
00:01:01:12 - 00:01:05:04
So you have written a little bit
about names in your book,
00:01:05:04 - 00:01:08:03
‘Can We Trust the Gospels?’
00:01:08:03 - 00:01:11:03
And talked about it a little bit in series
one of our podcast,
00:01:11:10 - 00:01:14:10
which was quite some time ago now.
00:01:14:12 - 00:01:18:05
One of the things you talk about
in the book is that there are patterns
00:01:18:05 - 00:01:22:22
of popularity of names that are seen to be
right in the New Testament.
00:01:22:23 - 00:01:25:14
P: Yeah.
T: Can you just expand on that for us a little bit please?
00:01:25:14 - 00:01:25:17
Yeah.
00:01:25:17 - 00:01:25:22
Yeah.
00:01:25:22 - 00:01:31:03
So people are able to gather data on names
from ossuaries –
00:01:31:03 - 00:01:34:03
bone boxes – and from historians like
00:01:34:03 - 00:01:38:01
Josephus and
and so on, and gather a sense of of
00:01:38:01 - 00:01:41:07
what were the most
popular names at the time.
00:01:42:14 - 00:01:44:07
It's worth saying that the time period
00:01:44:07 - 00:01:47:16
that we measure
names can often be quite wide.
00:01:48:03 - 00:01:52:23
So we may be going from, say,
300 BC to, say AD 70.
00:01:53:10 - 00:01:55:17
But what we can say is in that period,
00:01:55:17 - 00:01:58:17
the sort of names
we're getting in the New Testament are
00:01:59:04 - 00:01:59:20
right.
00:01:59:20 - 00:02:02:13
There is a change after the Maccabees
00:02:02:13 - 00:02:05:10
P: in the second century BC
T: Right.
00:02:05:10 - 00:02:08:10
have a successful military revolution.
00:02:08:15 - 00:02:11:18
Because that makes some of their names
become more popular.
00:02:12:02 - 00:02:15:07
And some of the names of the patriarchs,
become quite popular.
00:02:15:07 - 00:02:17:12
Say, say, Jacob becomes popular.
00:02:17:12 - 00:02:19:17
Where, if you go through the Old Testament,
00:02:19:17 - 00:02:21:05
it's it's there in the early period
00:02:21:05 - 00:02:24:24
T: it disappears completely, yeah, right.
P: and then nothing for a while, and then it revives.
00:02:25:15 - 00:02:29:00
And what it falls out is some,
some obvious results, for instance,
00:02:29:00 - 00:02:31:08
is that Simon is the most popular
00:02:31:08 - 00:02:34:11
male name for a Jew
00:02:36:19 - 00:02:37:14
from Palestine.
00:02:37:14 - 00:02:39:15
So Judea,
00:02:39:15 - 00:02:41:17
and Galilee.
00:02:41:17 - 00:02:43:23
And that's because of the, Simon the Maccabees?
00:02:43:23 - 00:02:45:18
Yeah, I think so. Yeah.
00:02:45:18 - 00:02:48:05
So it's, it's it's been around for a while.
00:02:48:05 - 00:02:51:05
There have been other Simeons
because Simon is simply
00:02:51:11 - 00:02:53:11
a name like Simeon,
although it's interesting
00:02:53:11 - 00:02:56:11
because it also has a Greek
meaning, snub nosed.
00:02:56:14 - 00:02:59:08
So it doesn't mean that someone has to be
that to get the name,
00:02:59:08 - 00:03:03:03
but it's one of those, names
that works in both languages.
00:03:04:05 - 00:03:06:18
So I'm, I'm Peter, and I sometimes wonder,
you know,
00:03:06:18 - 00:03:09:18
when I go to France, should I be a Pierre
or should I just say Peter?
00:03:10:05 - 00:03:13:00
And you can do, you know,
and you find people,
00:03:13:00 - 00:03:15:21
can work either way on this,
but it gives some flexibility.
00:03:15:21 - 00:03:19:17
It's nice to have that with a name.
And Mary becomes the most popular
00:03:19:23 - 00:03:20:21
female name.
00:03:20:21 - 00:03:21:21
Obviously, Mary
00:03:21:21 - 00:03:24:23
is ultimately a form of Miriam,
which is ultimately an Egyptian name.
00:03:25:24 - 00:03:28:10
But it's, you know, it takes
00:03:28:10 - 00:03:32:23
on a great deal of significance, and
there are various ways of spelling, Mary.
00:03:32:23 - 00:03:36:06
But what we're finding is, broadly
speaking, the
00:03:36:18 - 00:03:39:18
the names that we're getting
in the Gospels, they're definitely,
00:03:39:18 - 00:03:41:12
not Egyptian Jewish.
00:03:41:12 - 00:03:44:12
They're not, Turkish Jewish,
00:03:44:18 - 00:03:47:18
or Asia minor or anything like that, they’re not Roman Jewish.
00:03:48:18 - 00:03:50:19
So they, they fit with the land.
00:03:50:19 - 00:03:53:07
P: And that makes a lot of sense.
T: Right?
00:03:53:07 - 00:03:58:03
And the, the levels of popularity . . .
the the numbers of names,
00:03:58:03 - 00:04:01:20
the proportions of names
within the Gospels, they pretty much echo
00:04:02:10 - 00:04:04:03
the proportions of names within Palestine?
00:04:04:03 - 00:04:05:03
They do.
00:04:05:03 - 00:04:10:02
So although these don't reach
what people call statistical significance.
00:04:10:02 - 00:04:10:23
Right.
00:04:10:23 - 00:04:13:23
That doesn't mean
that it is not significant.
00:04:13:23 - 00:04:18:02
So what I mean by that,
that differentiation is
00:04:18:17 - 00:04:21:17
the fact is,
you could look at a very surface level,
00:04:22:11 - 00:04:24:16
at a story from another country,
and you would just have
00:04:24:16 - 00:04:26:01
a different palette of names.
00:04:26:01 - 00:04:29:00
Here you get the right sort of names.
00:04:29:00 - 00:04:32:03
And then we get with the more common
names, Simon being the most popular.
00:04:32:09 - 00:04:33:21
Joseph the second amongst men.
00:04:34:24 - 00:04:37:03
And a lot of the other ones towards the top
00:04:37:03 - 00:04:40:14
of the list, that they have a tendency
to add a disambiguator.
00:04:40:15 - 00:04:45:21
So that's why Jesus has two disciples
called Simon, one called Simon Peter,
00:04:46:01 - 00:04:48:24
or sometimes Simon Cephas,
although we never actually find the form
00:04:48:24 - 00:04:51:17
Simon Cephas but we presume that what it was.
00:04:51:17 - 00:04:52:05
Right.
00:04:52:05 - 00:04:55:05
And another one, would be Simon
the Zealot.
00:04:56:08 - 00:04:58:08
And there's a question about
does that mean
00:04:58:08 - 00:05:01:09
zealot in a technical later
sense of an actual revolutionary.
00:05:02:05 - 00:05:06:00
Because certainly, by the time
that there's a Jewish rebellion
00:05:06:05 - 00:05:09:06
against the Romans in the year 66,
there are zealot
00:05:09:08 - 00:05:12:08
means you're actually a revolutionary
00:05:12:17 - 00:05:14:13
But, he's got another name.
00:05:14:13 - 00:05:16:07
Simon the Cananite.
00:05:16:07 - 00:05:19:13
And we can often think of that as meaning
like Old Testament
00:05:19:13 - 00:05:25:24
Canaanite with a c, a, n, double a, n, i, t, e
00:05:25:24 - 00:05:28:08
and really, it's not that name.
00:05:28:08 - 00:05:31:11
It doesn't have that double ‘a’, it's to do with the
00:05:32:00 - 00:05:35:04
P: Hebrew and Aramaic to be zealous, qanai
T: Ah, I see
00:05:35:10 - 00:05:38:16
So God is, so zealous and jealous relate.
00:05:38:16 - 00:05:40:07
And so that's, that's what he's called.
00:05:40:07 - 00:05:44:09
But again, he's got that
extra bit added to his name.
00:05:44:09 - 00:05:48:05
And you find this happening again
with the Marys. Mary Magdalene,
00:05:48:17 - 00:05:51:21
Mary from Magdala, Mary,
the mother of James and Joseph.
00:05:51:22 - 00:05:53:22
And this is happening in the narratives
regularly.
00:05:53:22 - 00:05:56:24
So it's exactly the sort of names that
you would expect,
00:05:57:06 - 00:06:00:15
if you're using local information
and not really
00:06:00:15 - 00:06:03:15
the sort of thing
that would be easy to get
00:06:03:17 - 00:06:05:23
if you weren't
00:06:05:23 - 00:06:09:10
local, or had serious conversations
with locals.
00:06:09:11 - 00:06:13:24
Now, there are some people that push back
on elements of that argument.
00:06:13:24 - 00:06:16:13
If it's used too much
as a sort of knockdown argument
00:06:16:13 - 00:06:17:19
and you can whittle away at it.
00:06:17:19 - 00:06:21:07
But I think, broadly speaking, it
still stands
00:06:21:17 - 00:06:25:07
and you got control samples
and if you like, with,
00:06:26:02 - 00:06:29:23
some of the apocryphal gospels,
which don't seem to do so well.
00:06:29:24 - 00:06:33:09
So the Coptic version of the Gospel
of Thomas begins with,
00:06:33:09 - 00:06:36:14
‘These are the secret sayings which the living
Jesus spoke, and which Didymus
00:06:36:14 - 00:06:40:14
Judas Thomas wrote down’,
and that is really twin Judas, twin
00:06:41:07 - 00:06:44:14
which is not really a very plausible name
at all.
00:06:44:15 - 00:06:45:15
Yeah.
00:06:45:15 - 00:06:49:12
And so you find that, yes, it's easy
to get these things wrong.
00:06:49:13 - 00:06:52:23
And so you, you would notice
if they were wrong or if, for instance,
00:06:52:23 - 00:06:56:01
you are reading Luke's
genealogy of Jesus in Matthew,
00:06:56:22 - 00:07:02:07
sorry in Luke chapter three, and you were to be,
let's say, before the exile
00:07:02:09 - 00:07:05:09
and you were getting a Herod or a Philip,
you would suddenly think,
00:07:05:10 - 00:07:09:03
that doesn't really work, you know,
there weren’t Greeks around at that time.
00:07:09:03 - 00:07:12:11
So so that's where
we find the names just are
00:07:13:12 - 00:07:14:11
very plausible.
00:07:14:11 - 00:07:16:04
They work for their time and culture.
00:07:16:04 - 00:07:16:11
They work for their time and culture.
00:07:16:11 - 00:07:17:04
Yeah.
00:07:17:04 - 00:07:20:24
So you mentioned that the,
the two Simons.
00:07:21:09 - 00:07:24:24
There's other ambiguation isn't there, in
in the list of the apostles here
00:07:25:00 - 00:07:30:06
in Matthew 10 so
P: Yeah Matthew 10 is fascinating because basically you can find a correlation
00:07:30:06 - 00:07:34:05
between whether there is a disambiguation
and how popular the name is.
00:07:34:05 - 00:07:36:17
So you got first Simon,
who is called Peter, and Andrew,
00:07:36:17 - 00:07:40:07
his brother. Andrew is not that common
a name, but he's explained in relation to
00:07:40:15 - 00:07:41:04
his brother.
00:07:41:04 - 00:07:42:08
Yeah it’s not a disambiguation is it
00:07:42:08 - 00:07:45:22
James is a popular name,
so it's the son of Zebedee and John
00:07:45:22 - 00:07:47:05
his brother John, the popular name.
00:07:47:05 - 00:07:49:22
But he's again disambiguated. Philip,
00:07:49:22 - 00:07:51:14
actually, less popular.
00:07:51:14 - 00:07:53:02
Bartholomew less popular.
00:07:53:02 - 00:07:55:20
Thomas less less popular.
00:07:55:20 - 00:07:59:22
So they, those all lack disambiguators. Matthew the tax collector.
00:07:59:22 - 00:08:03:10
So Matthew was a fair, you know in the top
00:08:04:09 - 00:08:05:24
ten names.
00:08:05:24 - 00:08:07:17
James quite high ranking.
00:08:07:17 - 00:08:11:01
So again, the son of Alphaeus
and Thaddeus, low ranking Simon
00:08:11:01 - 00:08:14:01
the Cananite and Judas Iscariot.
00:08:14:01 - 00:08:15:14
So, Judas was,
00:08:15:14 - 00:08:17:13
you know, about the fourth most common name.
00:08:17:13 - 00:08:21:21
And these statistics may vary a bit
because there's new primary information
00:08:21:21 - 00:08:23:19
to be found. So
00:08:23:19 - 00:08:25:24
I should talk a little bit about the primary information
00:08:25:24 - 00:08:26:05
here?
00:08:26:05 - 00:08:30:24
So, there's a lexicon by Tal Ilan of proper names.
00:08:31:00 - 00:08:33:22
Several, actually,
but one for this period.
00:08:33:22 - 00:08:36:15
And she's basing that on what other people have done.
00:08:36:15 - 00:08:40:11
So the data are changing all the time
because people are coming up
00:08:40:12 - 00:08:42:02
with new inscriptions.
00:08:42:02 - 00:08:44:20
Every time you find a new,
00:08:44:20 - 00:08:47:16
thing with anyone's name on
that's actually changing the data so that
00:08:47:16 - 00:08:49:11
that will be change on a yearly basis.
00:08:49:11 - 00:08:52:13
So just to go back to where you started,
you mentioned that this data was coming
00:08:52:13 - 00:08:54:03
from a text like Josephus
00:08:54:03 - 00:08:58:03
and whatever, but also ossuaries
and and other epigraphic material?
P: Yes, yes
00:08:58:03 - 00:09:04:02
So any, any anything written down
any historical record will do.
00:09:04:02 - 00:09:06:06
They will also include
the New Testament in these texts.
00:09:06:06 - 00:09:09:00
So you got to be careful, you know,
when you can have a column of data,
00:09:09:00 - 00:09:12:15
including New Testament
compared with a column of data, which,
00:09:12:24 - 00:09:13:24
is the New Testament.
00:09:13:24 - 00:09:15:22
And so that's where
you got to be careful. But,
00:09:17:00 - 00:09:18:09
Dead Sea Scrolls, of course.
00:09:18:09 - 00:09:19:20
Give us some figures as well.
00:09:19:20 - 00:09:24:12
So, those are the sorts of things
that are feeding into that.
00:09:25:06 - 00:09:28:21
But it is changing, not dramatically,
I think,
00:09:28:24 - 00:09:31:24
you know, Simon's going to stay about
in first place.
00:09:32:07 - 00:09:34:08
For the men, and Mary
first place for the women.
00:09:34:08 - 00:09:37:18
I don't think that's likely to
change with more data, but you never know.
00:09:37:23 - 00:09:40:07
Yeah, sure. Yeah.
00:09:40:07 - 00:09:40:19
Okay.
00:09:40:19 - 00:09:44:13
That, tell us on the disambiguation thing,
00:09:44:13 - 00:09:49:08
how the narrator of the gospels
and the things that he,
00:09:49:17 - 00:09:53:12
the speech that is recording
how those differ because there's
P: Yeah,
00:09:53:13 - 00:09:55:05
T: there's some interesting differences there aren’t there?
P: there is.
00:09:55:05 - 00:10:00:10
So if you look at Matthew chapter 14,
what you find is you've got the story of,
00:10:01:03 - 00:10:04:03
John the Baptist, getting beheaded.
00:10:04:03 - 00:10:08:04
And, you remember that
Herod the tetrarch tetrarch has a,
00:10:09:03 - 00:10:10:23
a feast for his birthday.
00:10:10:23 - 00:10:14:24
And, then he makes a rash oath,
00:10:15:20 - 00:10:18:08
and, then has to fulfill it.
00:10:18:08 - 00:10:23:17
And what's interesting there
is that every time someone talks about
00:10:23:17 - 00:10:27:18
John the Baptist in the narrative,
they say the Baptist.
00:10:27:18 - 00:10:29:19
P: Because actually, John is quite a common name
T: Right
00:10:29:19 - 00:10:33:09
So you can't just say, well, you can't
say about Jesus, for instance, in,
00:10:33:24 - 00:10:38:07
Matthew chapter 14, verse two, he said to
his servants, this is John the Baptist.
00:10:38:07 - 00:10:41:07
He couldn't just simply say, this is John
00:10:41:14 - 00:10:43:13
He's saying, you know John the Baptist, who,
00:10:43:13 - 00:10:46:13
risen from the dead
because that wouldn't make sense.
00:10:46:14 - 00:10:49:14
You'd actually have to say which John,
because they're probably several
00:10:49:14 - 00:10:53:05
Johns working in Herod's palace,
so that just doesn't make any sense.
00:10:53:05 - 00:10:53:12
Okay.
00:10:53:12 - 00:10:58:13
And likewise, when Herodias’s daughter
asks for the head of John the Baptist,
00:10:58:13 - 00:11:00:10
she doesn't say,
just give me the head of John.
00:11:00:10 - 00:11:02:18
Might have got the head of the wrong John,
you know?
00:11:02:18 - 00:11:05:04
So she actually is very specific in asking
00:11:05:04 - 00:11:08:04
for the head of John the Baptist,
but the narrator can simply say John.
00:11:08:10 - 00:11:11:21
Now, the other striking thing is
that happens with the name Jesus as well.
00:11:12:03 - 00:11:14:23
And it happens basically
in all four gospels that when you have
00:11:14:23 - 00:11:19:03
people in speech context talking about Jesus,
00:11:19:07 - 00:11:24:02
they say Jesus plus something extra
Jesus, teacher, Jesus of Nazareth, Jesus,
00:11:24:06 - 00:11:29:22
Son of David, all sorts of things
that they add to disambiguate him.
00:11:29:22 - 00:11:32:02
Two exceptions are,
00:11:32:02 - 00:11:34:24
John, chapter nine,
when you've got a figure who's asked
00:11:34:24 - 00:11:38:10
who healed you, man born blind
and he seems actually in
00:11:39:06 - 00:11:43:10
to be portrayed as sort of, half
seeing spiritually at this point.
00:11:43:10 - 00:11:43:15
Yeah.
00:11:43:15 - 00:11:48:01
And he gives a half definition of,
of, of Jesus by saying yes the man
00:11:49:00 - 00:11:50:08
Jesus did it,
00:11:50:08 - 00:11:54:05
which won't actually help you identify
amongst all the various Jesuses in Jerusalem.
00:11:54:24 - 00:11:57:00
And the other case is the thief on the cross.
00:11:57:00 - 00:11:59:02
And again, people on crosses don't waste words.
00:11:59:02 - 00:12:02:01
P: And it's not a crowd situation. It's, it's, you know, it's 1 to 1.
T: Yeah. Right.
00:12:02:01 - 00:12:05:24
But what you can find is,
in the narratives for instance, if a, a servant
00:12:05:24 - 00:12:10:21
girl comes up to Peter and says, you know,
you were with him or you're one of them,
00:12:10:21 - 00:12:14:17
she's, she's going to say you were with
Jesus the Galilean, Jesus of Nazareth.
00:12:14:17 - 00:12:17:03
T: Yeah.
P: This is happening in, in
00:12:17:03 - 00:12:21:09
Matthew 26 but straight afterwards,
the narrator will simply talk about Jesus.
00:12:21:09 - 00:12:21:17
Right.
00:12:21:17 - 00:12:26:18
So you've got this interesting
differentiation between, yes,
00:12:27:19 - 00:12:30:03
the way the narrator speaks
and the way the characters speak.
00:12:30:03 - 00:12:30:12
Yeah.
00:12:30:12 - 00:12:32:22
And of course, you've actually got a three
fold differentiation, really,
00:12:32:22 - 00:12:36:23
in the Gospels, because Jesus talks
about himself as the Son of Man,
00:12:36:23 - 00:12:38:14
Which no one else seems to do.
00:12:38:14 - 00:12:41:16
And then the characters in the narrative
talk about him as Jesus,
00:12:41:16 - 00:12:42:22
plus something extra. Then
00:12:42:22 - 00:12:44:19
the narrators just calling him Jesus.
00:12:44:19 - 00:12:50:06
And so it's it's a very interesting,
set of things that really, again, works.
00:12:50:06 - 00:12:53:06
If Jesus really did call himself
the Son of Man, cryptically,
00:12:53:07 - 00:12:56:13
if he really is a figure
who needs to be distinguished
00:12:56:13 - 00:12:59:09
at the time, and it's describing
the way people would have spoken.
00:12:59:09 - 00:13:00:00
Yeah.
00:13:00:00 - 00:13:03:03
You know, if you had been in Rome, you wouldn't have needed to disambiguate the name,
00:13:04:08 - 00:13:05:00
Jesus.
00:13:05:00 - 00:13:10:11
And if the Gospels were written 100 years
into the spread of Christianity again,
00:13:10:11 - 00:13:12:24
you see, people don't feel the need
to differentiate Jesus.
00:13:12:24 - 00:13:15:12
And it's quite clear
which Jesus we're talking about.
00:13:15:12 - 00:13:18:06
But at this stage it would be very different.
00:13:18:06 - 00:13:22:22
P: I mean . . .
T: does the name Jesus drop out of, of general use because of Jesus?
00:13:22:22 - 00:13:27:00
Yes it does, I mean, so obviously nowadays,
you know, today we find in the Spanish
00:13:27:00 - 00:13:28:16
speaking world
that Jesus is quite a popular
00:13:28:16 - 00:13:31:23
name sometimes in a compound,
00:13:32:01 - 00:13:36:05
but in most other settings,
people aren't using the name,
00:13:37:07 - 00:13:37:16
Jesus.
00:13:37:16 - 00:13:40:06
And that's quite an interesting thing.
00:13:40:06 - 00:13:43:05
And, and so, yeah, I don't know
anyone who's called their child
00:13:43:05 - 00:13:43:18
Jesus.
00:13:43:18 - 00:13:47:08
No, no, It just, it feels unthinkable.
00:13:47:13 - 00:13:50:00
And yet, it is, as you say,
it is common in a Spanish culture
00:13:50:00 - 00:13:50:09
Yeah.
00:13:50:09 - 00:13:55:24
To which which for us in a non Spanish
speaking culture can lead to some amusing
00:13:56:04 - 00:14:00:13
P: Yeah, yeah absolutely
T: Some amusing situations but but yeah
it seems, it seems an unthinkable thing.
00:14:00:22 - 00:14:02:23
P: Yeah.
T: For, for a Brit to, to do that.
00:14:02:23 - 00:14:07:01
I mean if I can give a sort of opposite
example is such a bad example,
00:14:07:01 - 00:14:08:24
but I can't think of anyone else
00:14:08:24 - 00:14:12:03
its like, if you had said in 1850,
00:14:12:03 - 00:14:15:20
in Germany, the name Adolf,
again there were loads of them around.
00:14:15:20 - 00:14:17:23
T: Yeah right.
P: And no one would know which
00:14:17:23 - 00:14:23:00
you were talking about it becomes
almost unthinkable to call your child,
00:14:23:13 - 00:14:26:02
Adolf after the Second World War
for understandable reasons.
00:14:26:02 - 00:14:29:00
So that's one of those things
where you get a change,
00:14:29:00 - 00:14:32:12
where a name gets very associated
with that one particular individual,
00:14:33:03 - 00:14:35:01
who becomes a well-known. Now obviously
00:14:35:01 - 00:14:37:23
very bad example
because its just the opposite
00:14:39:01 - 00:14:41:04
I'm illustrating
I'd love to have a better example,
00:14:41:04 - 00:14:44:10
but but that, you know,
I think it gets the point across.
00:14:44:10 - 00:14:46:19
T: Yeah it does.
P: The name Jesus becomes really popular.
00:14:46:19 - 00:14:49:16
And then at a later stage
you don't need to disambiguate.
00:14:49:16 - 00:14:52:09
But as we are at this stage
in the Gospels, they do.
00:14:52:09 - 00:14:54:06
And this is an amazing thing.
00:14:54:06 - 00:14:59:07
So you’re reading Luke's gospel,
Luke 24 and you've got the two on the road
00:14:59:07 - 00:14:59:22
to Emmaus.
00:14:59:22 - 00:15:02:08
Along comes Jesus, they don’t recognize who he is.
00:15:02:08 - 00:15:04:14
And they say, well, haven’t you know what's going on?
00:15:04:14 - 00:15:05:10
He says what things?
00:15:05:10 - 00:15:08:01
And they say, oh,
the things concerning Jesus of Nazareth.
00:15:08:01 - 00:15:10:23
And that they have to disambiguate
who they're talking about.
00:15:10:23 - 00:15:13:14
And again, that's exactly
the way people would have had to have spoken.
00:15:13:14 - 00:15:14:22
Yeah, yeah.
00:15:14:22 - 00:15:19:03
It occurs to me that one of the reasons
why you can't think of a good example,
00:15:19:18 - 00:15:22:18
you have to use that negative
example of Adolf, is because
00:15:23:03 - 00:15:27:00
when somebody is a very significant figure
in the modern world,
00:15:27:06 - 00:15:31:12
people will name their children
after them, so there’s been a rise in royal names
00:15:31:12 - 00:15:33:21
of George and Arthur
and those kinds of things in recent years.
00:15:35:03 - 00:15:35:13
Whereas
00:15:35:13 - 00:15:38:13
they, they dropped out of use, but they're back in.
00:15:39:09 - 00:15:44:10
So is the reluctance to call children
Jesus in in the
00:15:44:21 - 00:15:47:21
you know, within the Christian community
in the early centuries
00:15:48:08 - 00:15:53:17
is that related to the whole idea
of the holiness of the name of God and of . . .
00:15:53:22 - 00:15:57:11
T: those kind of things?
P: I mean, obviously at an early stage in the New Testament, you get a,
00:15:58:14 - 00:16:01:14
P: Jesus called Justus.
T: Yep.
00:16:01:14 - 00:16:04:03
And and you,
00:16:04:03 - 00:16:06:07
Bar-Jesus, not a particularly good example
00:16:06:07 - 00:16:09:21
in the book of Acts
because he's a, he's a sorcerer.
00:16:10:23 - 00:16:13:05
But you can have others.
00:16:13:05 - 00:16:16:00
But, you know, over time,
there's a sense of reverence.
00:16:16:00 - 00:16:17:01
I mean, as in,
00:16:17:01 - 00:16:17:16
you don't want to
00:16:17:16 - 00:16:21:18
claim this about yourself,
so that's why people move away from that.
00:16:21:18 - 00:16:23:04
P: Yeah
T: Yeah.
00:16:23:04 - 00:16:26:04
There's an article in the next issue
of ink by
00:16:26:09 - 00:16:30:06
Dirk about writing the
Name of God and and how it's,
00:16:32:10 - 00:16:33:11
the the
00:16:33:11 - 00:16:37:11
Yahweh becomes the Tetragrammaton
is just written in the Old Testament
00:16:37:11 - 00:16:40:23
and that kind of thing happening
in the New Testament manuscripts as well.
00:16:40:23 - 00:16:41:08
So, yeah.
00:16:41:08 - 00:16:44:08
So we find as we go through
church history, of course, people will,
00:16:44:16 - 00:16:47:10
you’ll have, you know,
00:16:47:10 - 00:16:50:01
more than one Augustine,
you’ll have more than one Gregory.
00:16:50:01 - 00:16:56:04
And you because once one’s successful,
it sort of it takes off.
00:16:56:04 - 00:16:58:10
But people don't do that with, with Jesus.
00:16:58:10 - 00:16:59:11
And so you don't have a sort of
00:16:59:11 - 00:17:02:11
Saint Jesus halfway
through the church history, you know?
00:17:03:12 - 00:17:04:10
P: No.
T: Yeah.
00:17:04:10 - 00:17:07:10
Yeah, that's that's very interesting.
00:17:07:14 - 00:17:10:14
How does this is
00:17:10:14 - 00:17:14:06
this is going back a little bit,
but one of the, the, the arguments
00:17:14:06 - 00:17:17:06
that’s sometimes leveled against the Gospels
is that
00:17:18:08 - 00:17:21:08
somebody has invented all of this.
00:17:21:12 - 00:17:25:08
There are multiple lines of argument
why that doesn't stand up.
00:17:25:08 - 00:17:26:07
And you've
00:17:26:07 - 00:17:30:20
you've outlined some reasons for this,
but why could it not be that somebody
00:17:30:20 - 00:17:36:13
from another Jewish community
say in Alexandria or Rome, why,
00:17:36:22 - 00:17:40:07
why would, could they not have written this stuff
and and still had the right
00:17:40:07 - 00:17:41:23
T: kind of balance of names that you were talking about earlier?
P: Well, I mean
00:17:41:23 - 00:17:45:14
So in Alexandria, certain names
would have been popular, like Sabatius
00:17:45:14 - 00:17:49:19
P: Dosithius, Pappus, Ptolemias
T: You don't see those in the New Testament
00:17:49:20 - 00:17:50:24
P: You don't see those in the New Testament.
00:17:50:24 - 00:17:53:24
So what you're finding is amongst the chart of the top names,
00:17:54:13 - 00:17:57:00
that they have there, those those aren't making it over.
00:17:57:00 - 00:18:00:11
Of course, in Alexandria, Jews
were basically Greek speaking.
00:18:00:14 - 00:18:03:12
What we're finding with Jesus disciples,
we've got two Greek names,
00:18:03:12 - 00:18:04:05
Andrew and Philip.
00:18:04:05 - 00:18:07:01
The rest are, Hebrew, Aramaic,
00:18:08:01 - 00:18:08:16
I mean,
00:18:08:16 - 00:18:12:14
it's interesting the way the,
the names line up.
00:18:12:14 - 00:18:13:23
And of course, with our Gospels,
00:18:13:23 - 00:18:18:01
two of the four gospel
names are Latin, Mark and Luke.
00:18:18:05 - 00:18:20:01
Which is fascinating.
00:18:20:01 - 00:18:22:06
So you've got this mixture of languages,
00:18:22:06 - 00:18:24:24
but it's it's
just very difficult to falsify that.
00:18:24:24 - 00:18:27:09
And to have the mindset to do so.
00:18:27:09 - 00:18:31:02
And if you are going to falsify a story,
you don't just have to falsify
00:18:31:09 - 00:18:34:03
and make sure you can get the right names
to look plausible.
00:18:34:03 - 00:18:35:04
You need everything else.
00:18:35:04 - 00:18:38:04
You need the geography. You need
00:18:38:04 - 00:18:42:06
the coinage, the weather,
the trees, the social stratification.
00:18:42:16 - 00:18:44:16
Now, this is not an easy thing to do.
00:18:44:16 - 00:18:47:14
And the reason why is because travel
is difficult and potentially dangerous.
00:18:47:14 - 00:18:51:05
I mean, you know, you you can get robbed,
you can get ill, you know,
00:18:53:04 - 00:18:53:19
what what
00:18:53:19 - 00:18:56:19
can go wrong when, when you're traveling?
00:18:56:22 - 00:19:00:12
It's not something you do
just for no particular reason.
00:19:00:12 - 00:19:05:07
So people are generally traveling
for for trade and these sorts of reasons.
00:19:05:20 - 00:19:08:20
And you find it, one of the greatest,
00:19:09:22 - 00:19:12:09
geographers at the time is Strabo.
00:19:12:09 - 00:19:16:01
And, yet, he can get fantastically confused,
00:19:16:21 - 00:19:21:08
well he gets confused about the Dead Sea
and a lake in Egypt.
00:19:21:08 - 00:19:24:16
P: And you think, how can the top geographer do this?
T: Wow
00:19:24:16 - 00:19:25:20
Yeah.
00:19:25:20 - 00:19:29:17
And it's again, it's because people
haven't been to these places.
00:19:29:17 - 00:19:33:10
P: It's it's a really big deal
T: they rely on secondhand information.
00:19:34:17 - 00:19:37:02
And so I think, you know,
00:19:37:02 - 00:19:40:14
I’ve been once to Australia, okay, I'm 53, once to Australia.
00:19:40:15 - 00:19:41:16
It was quite a big journey.
00:19:41:16 - 00:19:43:14
You know,
I'd be glad to go back there again.
00:19:43:14 - 00:19:46:07
But but it's not something you do lightly.
00:19:46:07 - 00:19:49:19
And so a lot of the time
people may be very well
00:19:49:19 - 00:19:52:24
educated, but they're getting
the knowledge of geography from books,
00:19:54:01 - 00:19:56:01
and knowledge of culture and other things.
00:19:56:01 - 00:19:59:17
And that isn't enough, actually,
to give them the ability
00:19:59:17 - 00:20:02:17
to write a story
with all of the right details
00:20:02:21 - 00:20:06:05
in and actually, names
are one of the things that you wouldn't
00:20:06:05 - 00:20:09:24
necessarily think you might think, oh,
there are Jewish names.
00:20:10:04 - 00:20:14:06
You don't think, no, there are Jewish
names for this land and for that land
00:20:14:06 - 00:20:17:06
and for that, and so this social stratification,
that social stratification.
00:20:17:13 - 00:20:20:22
And to actually get a bit more subtle
about it, it's like if I were to ask,
00:20:21:22 - 00:20:24:23
sort of, a typical Western person
to write me
00:20:24:23 - 00:20:28:22
a story about Libya or Algeria or whatever
it is to
00:20:29:00 - 00:20:32:14
for someone to be able
to come up with the right sort of names
00:20:32:21 - 00:20:35:21
that would be incredibly difficult,
they might have some vague idea.
00:20:35:22 - 00:20:38:22
Yeah, of some figures, from a land.
00:20:39:00 - 00:20:42:00
But getting the right mixture
in Algeria of, of,
00:20:42:05 - 00:20:45:11
Berber and Kabyle names as opposed to the Arabic.
00:20:45:16 - 00:20:47:07
There's no way you're going to do that.
00:20:47:07 - 00:20:48:14
So I just think it's,
00:20:49:18 - 00:20:50:04
again, it's
00:20:50:04 - 00:20:53:22
not a knockdown proof
that these accounts are true.
00:20:53:22 - 00:20:58:06
It it just fits very well,
with true reporting,
00:20:59:03 - 00:21:02:04
and it's about the simplicity
00:21:02:04 - 00:21:05:04
of the hypothesis
that this is straightforward narrative.
00:21:05:20 - 00:21:09:03
That's a simple hypothesis that's going
to explain the data, now it's over to you
00:21:09:09 - 00:21:12:09
to try and give me something
that's equally simple.
00:21:12:12 - 00:21:14:23
Yeah. Yeah.
00:21:14:23 - 00:21:17:13
Can we talk about the name Jesus and,
00:21:17:13 - 00:21:20:19
and his his use of the Son of Man?
00:21:20:21 - 00:21:21:12
Yeah, sure.
00:21:21:12 - 00:21:25:08
Because it's, it's a it's
a fascinating term and . . .
00:21:25:10 - 00:21:27:13
Yeah,
00:21:27:13 - 00:21:28:22
we, people struggle with it
00:21:28:22 - 00:21:32:08
because, you know, is is it
is is just Daniel 7?
00:21:32:11 - 00:21:34:23
But then why does Ezekiel keep,
00:21:34:23 - 00:21:38:11
why does God call Ezekiel, consistently through the book of Ezekiel,
00:21:38:11 - 00:21:39:03
son of man?
00:21:39:03 - 00:21:43:06
Is Jesus drawing on Ezekiel, is he drawing on Daniel? Why is he doing this?
00:21:43:06 - 00:21:47:01
So we find in the early church,
and in a sense, in popular culture,
00:21:47:01 - 00:21:50:16
it's very easy to think of an opposition
between Son of Man and Son of God.
00:21:50:18 - 00:21:53:14
That's that's that's the simple way it works.
00:21:53:14 - 00:21:58:14
But of course, Son of Man was often
a, an expression just for a person.
00:21:58:20 - 00:22:02:19
So in Aramaic, son of man you might well just call there’s a son of man over there.
00:22:02:19 - 00:22:03:15
I mean,
00:22:03:24 - 00:22:04:20
it's got that,
00:22:04:20 - 00:22:08:15
but then you've got this fact
that you've got Daniel 7:13–14,
00:22:08:15 - 00:22:10:17
which talks about one like a son of man
00:22:10:17 - 00:22:14:04
coming to the ancient of the days,
receiving power and authority.
00:22:14:11 - 00:22:17:05
And all nations serving him.
00:22:17:05 - 00:22:20:15
And Jesus certainly seems to be using it
sometimes in that sort of way,
00:22:20:15 - 00:22:24:24
he will pick up the language of authority.
00:22:25:14 - 00:22:28:15
Being, given, to the Son of Man
00:22:28:15 - 00:22:31:20
that the Son of Man has authority on earth
to forgive sins, for instance.
00:22:32:03 - 00:22:34:07
So that's where it's interesting.
00:22:34:07 - 00:22:36:06
He seems to be
00:22:36:06 - 00:22:38:01
referencing
00:22:38:01 - 00:22:40:20
back to
00:22:40:20 - 00:22:42:19
Daniel.
00:22:42:19 - 00:22:44:07
Reference to Ezekiel,
00:22:44:07 - 00:22:45:16
that's that's a tougher one.
00:22:45:16 - 00:22:47:12
And I'm not sure I can solve that.
00:22:47:12 - 00:22:49:12
T: That's very disappointing.
P: On the spot
00:22:49:12 - 00:22:52:12
But I'm really sorry to disappoint you there.
00:22:52:20 - 00:22:55:15
The I mean, the other thing
is that you actually find
00:22:55:15 - 00:22:59:18
some of the features with the way
the Son of Man phrase is used
00:23:00:04 - 00:23:03:00
where it actually works,
not just for Matthew, Mark and Luke,
00:23:03:00 - 00:23:05:18
but also for John,
which is a bit different as a gospel.
00:23:05:18 - 00:23:08:13
Right. Where you find it talking about,
00:23:09:21 - 00:23:11:09
the Son of Man being glorified.
00:23:11:09 - 00:23:15:18
And again, that that fits
with the Daniel 7 sort of reference.
00:23:16:00 - 00:23:20:23
So, I think it's a carefully chosen term
00:23:20:23 - 00:23:27:22
because, Jesus is not proclaiming himself
00:23:28:08 - 00:23:31:21
publicly as the Messiah, because
that would have been misunderstood.
00:23:32:21 - 00:23:35:21
And so he's able to point people to
00:23:36:18 - 00:23:40:05
Old Testament texts and expectation
using this and
00:23:41:15 - 00:23:45:11
this third person locution which clearly,
when you look at the end of things, is
00:23:45:11 - 00:23:47:10
P: referring to himself.
T: Yeah, right.
00:23:47:10 - 00:23:51:05
And nobody seems to question it
in the Gospels they, when he talks
00:23:51:05 - 00:23:54:18
about himself as the Son of Man,
I can't think of any instance where people
00:23:55:04 - 00:23:57:21
T: question that use of the term
P: There’s a ‘who is this son of man?’ isn’t there?
00:23:57:21 - 00:23:59:07
P: Yes.
T: Yeah.
00:23:59:07 - 00:24:01:21
Whereas whereas when,
00:24:01:21 - 00:24:04:02
when he's identifying himself
00:24:04:02 - 00:24:08:00
more obviously with God or as God,
00:24:08:24 - 00:24:09:19
forgiving sins
00:24:09:19 - 00:24:12:19
for example,
in the healing of the paralytic,
00:24:12:21 - 00:24:15:21
T: that's not so much of what he says, but what he does.
P: Yes.
00:24:16:00 - 00:24:19:03
But but nevertheless, the Pharisees are up
in arms about that. And
00:24:19:03 - 00:24:20:01
T: Yet
P: Yes.
00:24:20:01 - 00:24:23:05
So the Son of Man seems to be able to work
as a, as a title.
00:24:23:05 - 00:24:25:18
T: That can go under the radar.
P: Yeah.
00:24:25:18 - 00:24:30:06
And I think some of what Jesus says
actually works at two levels.
00:24:30:06 - 00:24:30:16
Right.
00:24:30:16 - 00:24:35:13
So you, you will see this in, in say, John
chapter six where a modern translation
00:24:35:13 - 00:24:36:19
might be inclined to think
00:24:36:19 - 00:24:40:00
shall we talk about father
with a capital ‘F’ or father with a
00:24:40:00 - 00:24:41:19
small ‘f’?
00:24:41:19 - 00:24:43:19
And of course,
00:24:43:19 - 00:24:46:19
that distinction didn't exist at the
00:24:46:24 - 00:24:47:21
time of Jesus.
00:24:47:21 - 00:24:49:04
And so,
00:24:49:04 - 00:24:52:08
you have possibility to misunderstand
00:24:52:08 - 00:24:54:15
what Jesus is saying
when he's talking about my father.
00:24:54:15 - 00:24:55:17
I mean, this even happens,
00:24:55:17 - 00:24:58:05
You know, didn't you know,
I had to be about my father's business.
00:24:58:05 - 00:25:01:05
In Luke chapter two, he says this, to,
00:25:01:09 - 00:25:03:18
Mary, Mary and Joseph, and they’re a bit puzzled, ‘What?’
00:25:04:15 - 00:25:06:09
‘What’s that?’, you know,
00:25:06:09 - 00:25:09:09
so so that's where I think there are,
00:25:10:07 - 00:25:14:07
yeah, there's possibility to read
Jesus words at more than one level,
00:25:15:02 - 00:25:19:05
about, father and you do see this
sort of thing going on in
00:25:19:07 - 00:25:23:16
John chapter six, not necessarily
prepped to take, take you to it right now, but, yeah.
00:25:24:20 - 00:25:26:05
Yeah.
00:25:26:05 - 00:25:27:24
Okay.
00:25:27:24 - 00:25:30:03
Finally, what about the significance
of some of the names
00:25:30:03 - 00:25:31:24
in in our Old Testament discussions,
00:25:31:24 - 00:25:36:18
we've we've seen a, a number of
incidents, instances where people's names are,
00:25:38:02 - 00:25:40:10
the meaning of the name
is highly appropriate.
00:25:40:10 - 00:25:43:05
T: And obviously that works for Jesus.
P: Yeah.
00:25:43:05 - 00:25:45:09
P: Which I want to talk about. Yeah.
T: Yeah. So.
00:25:45:09 - 00:25:46:08
So tell us about that.
00:25:46:08 - 00:25:48:15
And are there other examples, other names
00:25:48:15 - 00:25:53:02
T: in the New Testament?
P: And it's interesting when you look at, Jesus's, family,
00:25:53:17 - 00:25:56:17
they get named in, Matthew chapter five.
00:25:57:09 - 00:26:02:05
Sorry, 13 verse 55,
where they say, isn't his mother called
00:26:02:05 - 00:26:06:05
Mary and his brothers are
James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?
00:26:06:12 - 00:26:08:16
Well, if you think of five
00:26:09:23 - 00:26:11:08
brothers,
00:26:11:08 - 00:26:14:08
Jesus, James, Joseph, Simon and Judas,
00:26:14:19 - 00:26:18:13
what's striking is there's
only one of those that fits with a saviour.
00:26:19:13 - 00:26:20:01
Yes, it’s
00:26:20:01 - 00:26:23:19
You know, he's the one who's going to save.
Jacob means trickster.
00:26:23:19 - 00:26:25:04
P: And it's interesting that he’s . . .
T: Which is James
P: James
00:26:25:04 - 00:26:28:04
James, that the,
00:26:29:02 - 00:26:31:23
on my understanding,
they are Jesus's half brothers.
00:26:31:23 - 00:26:32:07
Okay.
00:26:32:07 - 00:26:34:14
I know their are other understandings about that.
00:26:34:14 - 00:26:37:09
And so the first born after Jesus
00:26:37:09 - 00:26:40:11
is called Iakobos which becomes James.
00:26:40:11 - 00:26:40:21
Yeah.
00:26:40:21 - 00:26:43:23
And Iakobos
is just the Greek ending of Iakob [Jacob].
00:26:44:18 - 00:26:47:06
And it's interesting that Joseph's
00:26:47:06 - 00:26:50:06
father in Matthew's genealogy is called Iakob [Jacob].
00:26:50:13 - 00:26:53:03
So it's the common thing of paponymy
00:26:53:03 - 00:26:55:02
of, when you call someone after their
00:26:55:02 - 00:26:56:22
Grandfather.
00:26:56:22 - 00:26:57:01
Yeah.
00:26:57:01 - 00:27:00:22
But you can't do it in the case of Jesus
because he's actually been given
00:27:00:22 - 00:27:03:06
a different name by the angels.
Are you going to call,
00:27:03:06 - 00:27:05:18
You know, the first born Jesus.
00:27:05:18 - 00:27:07:20
And then they they go on to this,
00:27:08:19 - 00:27:12:14
Jacob. Joseph, Simon, and Judas.
00:27:12:14 - 00:27:15:20
Of course, they're all, sons of Jacob,
00:27:15:20 - 00:27:18:20
which is an interesting feature. And,
00:27:19:03 - 00:27:22:20
one's an outlier the name Iesus [Jesus] which is of course a form of the name
00:27:22:22 - 00:27:24:00
P: Joshua.
T: Yeah.
00:27:24:00 - 00:27:27:00
But it is an outlier
in terms of the naming pattern,
00:27:27:06 - 00:27:30:21
because there was a time when Jacob,
00:27:31:18 - 00:27:36:02
Joseph, Simeon and Judah would have been
00:27:36:02 - 00:27:39:22
in the tent together at one stage, you know, in the Old Testament.
00:27:40:02 - 00:27:42:12
And there's one outlier name,
and that's the one,
00:27:42:12 - 00:27:43:05
Jesus. And I think
00:27:43:05 - 00:27:45:09
it's just a fascinating
00:27:45:09 - 00:27:47:11
P: thing you can try and
T: It is isn’t it?
00:27:47:11 - 00:27:49:07
P: meditate on.
T: Yeah.
00:27:49:07 - 00:27:51:24
Maybe that's a very good place
to bring this to a close.
00:27:51:24 - 00:27:54:00
T: Pete, thank you very much for your time today.
P: Thank you
00:27:54:00 - 00:27:57:00
That's been really interesting
join us again for, as I said
00:27:57:02 - 00:27:58:14
at the beginning, conversation with Steve
00:27:58:14 - 00:28:02:18
Walton next time talking about the patterns
of, of names within the Roman world
00:28:02:18 - 00:28:05:19
and particularly Saul,
and whether he changed his name to Paul
00:28:05:19 - 00:28:10:02
or whether that's just a different use of,
different versions of the same name.
00:28:11:04 - 00:28:12:02
No plot spoilers.
00:28:12:02 - 00:28:13:17
We'll leave that hanging for next time.
00:28:13:17 - 00:28:15:05
So please do subscribe
00:28:15:05 - 00:28:17:18
to the podcast, rate and review us
wherever you get your podcast.
00:28:17:18 - 00:28:20:22
That really helps us,
to make it known to other people.
00:28:20:22 - 00:28:22:01
Thank you for joining us.