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Taking risks in the Gospel of John - Dr Chee-Chiew Lee pt2
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In this episode Dr Andrew Ollerton and Dr Chee-Chiew Lee delve further into her research into persecution and what it means to take risks in the Gospel of John.
Dr Chee-Chiew Lee is Associate Professor in New Testament and Senior Director of Programme Development and Advanced Studies at Singapore Bible College. Her PhD in biblical theology is from Wheaton College, Illinois.
Trusting the Bible is a collaboration between Tyndale House, Cambridge @Tyndale_House and the Bible Society @biblesociety.
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Trusting the Bible is a podcast series from Tyndall House Cambridge and Bible Society. Conversations with experts in biblical studies. In our first series, Trusting the Gospels, we're exploring the reliability, relevance, and reality of the four Gospel accounts. In this episode, Dr. Andrew Olerton and Dr. Chichoo Lee delve further into her research into persecution and what it means to take risks in the Gospel of John.
SPEAKER_03Well, welcome to part two with Dr. Chichoo Lee. I'm at Tyndale House. It's Andrew Olerton here, and we're really enjoying talking about John's Gospel and persecution. I must admit, Chicho, I found part one quite challenging. Could you just give us a recap of why John has a challenge for us when we face persecution or hostility for following Jesus?
SPEAKER_01Yes. We saw from a part one that the standards are really high. There is no sitting on the fence. There is no belonging to both sides. That is a very high standard.
SPEAKER_03Wow, yeah.
SPEAKER_01If we want to be Jesus' disciples, we will have to face persecution. We cannot love our own honor and dignity more than God's glory.
SPEAKER_03Well, that is the challenge right there, isn't it? You've nailed it. Yeah, we cannot love our own honor and dignity more than the glory of God. Yeah. So in John's Gospel, how just talk us through how does he particularly set that up? What struck me was there's no fence to sit on. Could you just kind of give us a little bit of reminders of how does he frame following Jesus?
SPEAKER_01Well, he quoted Jesus saying that um his disciples are not of the world. And if they are of the world, the world will love them. But because they are not of the world, the world will definitely hate them. They don't have a choice.
SPEAKER_03Okay. So we shouldn't be surprised by some hostility. We shouldn't be surprised that we feel some fear in the light of it. But there are clear categories, right? There's light and there's darkness. Um there's there's following Jesus and there's seeking to the approval of the world, and you can't be you can't have a foot in both camps. There's no fence to sit on to mix up metaphors. So that's John's gospel. It sets a high standard. Within the gospel itself, though, let's get down to some real characters. Um can you give us an example of someone then who, if you like, clears the bar who meets that standard of following Jesus despite the persecution?
SPEAKER_01Well, a typical character would be the blind man who was healed. Um he is a very positive character. Then there are other characters which is um which are uh a contrast. Like his parents, the blind man's parents. The way it is set up, it's meant to show the contrast between uh these two sets of characters.
SPEAKER_03Because he's a fascinating story, isn't it? This is John chapter nine. If our um listeners want to remind refresh their memories, it's John chapter nine. Can you just give us the highlights, if you like, of what happens to him and why it relates to this theme of making a clear decision and persecution?
SPEAKER_01It starts off uh with this his disciples um asking Jesus, uh, why is the man born blind? So instead of telling them the reason behind the cause of his blindness, um, Jesus explains the purpose of the miracle. He tells them that it is going to be for God's glory. Right? So we know that the blind man was healed, and everybody was very surprised. So when the Pharisees questioned him, um he mentioned that he only followed the instructions that Jesus had given him, and then he was healed. And they continued to press him to say uh to ask him where Jesus is and who he thinks Jesus is. Um he went on to explain. So we have in chapter 9 certain of the Pharisees that insisted Jesus cannot be from God because he did the healing on the Sabbath. And then they intimidated the blind man to say that, you know, this man is definitely not from God. Now you you better tell us the truth. But the blind man replied, such that um it is not possible for him to be healed by a person who is a sinner. So despite their intimidation, he claims that uh Jesus, he acknowledges that Jesus is from God. And the Pharisees were really, really annoyed by what he said. Yeah and they cast him out from their presence. So this casting out of their presence most likely refers to he has been cast out of the synagogue. Because usually uh all these legal hearings, you know, the Pharisees, you know, conducting a hearing from uh from the people occurs in a synagogue. So by publicly acknowledging that Jesus is from God, he faced the consequence. He was cast out of the synagogue. But yet we know from um the uh later narrative that Jesus commended him for believing in him and coming to the light. So this whole story brings across the significance of the miracle. The one who is physically blind now sees and goes into the light. While those who disbelieve claim that they can see, but they are actually blind and still remain in sin.
SPEAKER_03So, in summary, Chi Chi, I mean what a difference a day makes for that blind man, right? He starts the day blind, he can't see, um, and he finishes the day with sight. He starts the day in within the synagogue and he finishes the day outside excommunicated. So all of that is the context of persecution, but then his parents get involved, right? So could you just talk us through their response? We've seen the blind man, he's actually surprisingly bold, isn't he? And I always admire his composure. You know, at one time even a bit of comedy when he sort of says to the Pharisees, Do you want to be his disciples as well when they're when they're having a right go at Jesus? So there's a lovely sort of interchange there. But then his parents get involved. Could you maybe share a bit about how they respond to the threat of persecution?
SPEAKER_01Well, because the Pharisees really couldn't believe that he was born blind and now he sees. So they summoned his parents as witnesses to kind of ensure that this is actually the blind man. And his parents confess that, yes, this is our son. We know that he has been born blind. But how he now sees, we do not know. But however, John reveals that his parents actually knows how he received his sight. It's just that they do not dare to comment on Jesus for the fear of being cast out of the synagogue. So it just shows that they have covered up something that they knew because of their fear. And by doing so, although they avoided the risk of being cast out of the synagogue, they have actually entered into darkness because they lied.
SPEAKER_03Okay, so the the sort of twist is the blind man can now see he's come into the light, and those who thought they could see are now, if you like, in the darkness. They're the ones who are blind to the to the truth, in effect, and that that's partly what the fear's done to them. And right at the end of the story, the blind man has that final conversation with Jesus, doesn't he? And he effectively gives a clear moment of confidence and of faith, um, saying, I believe in Jesus. So he's come right through. So it in terms of John's gospel, then framing it in that larger, the larger sense of the gospel as a whole, you're saying that the blind man is, if you like, an example of someone who meets the high standard. Is that roughly how you're thinking of it?
SPEAKER_01Yes, that's correct.
SPEAKER_03Okay. So he's cleared the bar.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_03He's followed Jesus despite the consequences. He's been excommunicated, but now he sees he's he's been put under pressure, but he's clear about his faith. Um But then you've mentioned these other characters that come through in the gospel who are perhaps less clear and maybe um almost precisely for that reason a bit more encouraging. Could you share a bit about some of the other characters then that the feature?
SPEAKER_01Okay, now in chapter twelve, um John mentions that among the Jewish leaders there were some who believe in Jesus, but they dare not make um public confession because they love their own honor and dignity more than God's honor. Now, um in the Bible there are two characters who are actually part of this group of leaders. The first person um is Joseph of Arimathea. Now it is worth noting that in the whole Gospel of John, John does not mention that Joseph is a Jewish leader. We only get to know that he is part of the Jewish Sanhedrin from the Synoptic Gospels. Now, the other person is Nicodemus. Nicodemus, in chapter three, the very first sentence introducing him already says that he is a Jewish leader and that he was a Pharisee. So these are very these two characters are very interesting. Um how John portrays them in so-called their following of Jesus.
SPEAKER_00Do you want to go further in your knowledge of the Bible? Tinder House and Bible Society have more resources to help you do just that. Why not check out Inc., a free magazine from Tinder House that aims to bring you current research on Bible manuscripts, languages, and the ancient world. It's for everyone, regardless of academic knowledge or experience, and it's free. Sign up for a post or e-subscription on the Tindar House website. There's also the Bible course from Bible Society. The Bible course is an eight-season small group resource that combines video teaching from Dr. Andrew Olerton with interactive study time. It shows how the whole Bible fits together, from Genesis to Revelation, and how it applies to our lives today. Search the Bible course or visit Bible Society's website to order a copy today.
SPEAKER_03By the way, I like what you just mentioned there about the Synoptic Gospels. We mentioned these in part one, didn't we, that they are Matthew, Mark, and Luke's Gospel and they're quite different to John, but they cross-reference, and and I mean that's remarkable cross-referencing, isn't it, in terms of Joseph of Arimathea? We know a lot more about Joseph because we've got four Gospels rather than one, I suppose. And that's whilst there are big differences, and sometimes people frame that as a problem, the diversity is actually a really great thing, isn't it? We we you know we wouldn't know who Joseph was. He in other words, he had a lot more to lose, I suppose, is what I'm thinking, right? That the blind man was um, if you like, uh uh someone who would have been despised and and relatively ostracised or ignored. So we've got these two characters now, Joseph Arimathea and Nicodemus. Well, how did you say Nicodemus?
SPEAKER_01I called him Nicodemus.
SPEAKER_03Nicodemus, okay. Nicodemus to you, Nicodemus to me. Um so we've got these two characters. They've got a lot more to lose because they are part of the elite, if you like, the the intellectual and spiritual elite of the day. And they respond differently to the threat of persecution. They clearly have some significant encounter with Jesus in Nicodemus' case, we can read about that in John chapter 3. And then in Joseph of Arimathea's case, I thought I might just read actually, um, just for the sake of our listeners who may be a bit less familiar, but these are the verses you were thinking of in John's Gospel. This is right at the end now of Jesus' life. In fact, he's just died on the cross, breathed his last. And after these things, John 19, verse 38, Joseph of Arimathea, who was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly, for fear of the Jews, he asked Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus, and Pilate gave him permission. And then there's a verse about Nicodemus. Nicodemus also, who earlier had come to Jesus by night, came bringing a mixture of myrrh and alloys, about seventy-five pounds in weight. So they took the body of Jesus, bound it in linen, cloths with spices, as was the custom for burial. So you've got these two characters right at the end of Jesus' life, they're absolutely central to making sure that Jesus gets a dignified burial rather than his body being just thrown on the on the rubbish heaps around Golgotha of the time. So they're they're really caring for Jesus. But we read this interesting phrase that uh in now in Joseph's case he's been following Jesus secretly for fear. So John's almost deliberately bringing these characters in to say not everyone was like the blind man, just bold as brass and saying it as it is. What can we then so just tell us a bit more about Joseph and Nicodemus? How how can we learn from their experience?
SPEAKER_01Okay. Now it it is easy for us to relate what is being said in chapter twelve to these two men. So chapter twelve, remind me, is is Yes, the well, because chapter twelve has a comment that says that uh these people love their own honor more than God's honor. So it is very easy for anyone to just say, ha, look at Joseph, look at Nicodemus, you know, they are secret disciples, they are afraid to, you know, make their faith known publicly. So uh we look at them from a very negative point of view. But what I would like to challenge our audience and readers is to read John's gospel carefully again. Do Joseph and Nicodemus love their own glory more than God's glory? Do we put them in the same camp? Yes. So it is important for us to note that John does not comment negatively on Joseph like the way he did for the blind man's parents, right? Because he describes the disciples gathering behind locked doors due to the fear of these um Jewish leaders as well. So he doesn't comment on the disciples' behavior negatively, neither does he comment um the the behavior of the um of Joseph negatively. Alright? So um therefore acting in secret and fear in itself does not carry a negative connotation. There is only a negative connotation when people respond to such fear by lying, like the blind man's parents, or by so-called preferring human glory to divine glory. So does Joseph love his own honor and dignity more than God's glory? Now we know that he asked Pilate for Jesus' body and burying Jesus in a new tomb instead of the common grave.
SPEAKER_03And presumably, Chicho, just backing up to the to ask even just asking Pilate for Jesus' body, that that must have been a risk because you're you're really sticking your head up there and saying, I'm with this person and I want to take care of his arrangements now. Is that was that risky?
SPEAKER_01Yes. I would say that Joseph runs the risk of being exposed of his identity should he be discovered for doing so by his colleagues. For Pilate it wouldn't make a difference because the Jewish leaders had asked for uh the body to be brought down because they don't want it to be uh you know up there over the Sabbath. So Joseph was a Jewish leader. So for Pilate that's not going to make a difference. But if his other colleagues, his other Jewish leaders were to find out, then he's in big trouble. So we see that he actually took the risk to do this for Jesus.
SPEAKER_03Aaron Ross Powell Yeah, okay. So the man who's followed Jesus secretly is nevertheless making moves that could have exposed his his faith in Jesus.
SPEAKER_01Aaron Ross Powell Yes. And John doesn't tell us whether he was ever uh eventually exposed. He just mentions that Joseph is a secret disciple, but yet we see he took the risk. So from this incident, we can almost say that he doesn't seem um clearly as positive or negative.
SPEAKER_03So in a sense, I mean this is fascinating, isn't it? Because in a sense, what we've got is John on the one hand, part one of our of our of our podcast, John on the one hand saying there's there's no fence to sit on, we set the bar high, and then almost nevertheless deliberately, more subtly, weaving in characters to that larger framework that say, but it's more complex than that, right? And actually some of us are on a journey here and we may feel the fear and may at times be tempted to secrecy in terms of our faith, but then also be brought to a place where we are prepared to take risks. And so is that what I mean, talk talk to us about that. What are you seeing John doing with these characters that he weaves in deliberately? What what kind of messaging is he giving to us through that?
SPEAKER_01Um I would say that he seems to be deliberate. Nicodemus appears in the narrative three times. The first time in chapter three, second time in chapter seven, and the third time in chapter nineteen. But it is also noteworthy that John has never made a comment whether Nicodemus is a disciple or not. He just doesn't want to say. And we can make all sorts of guesses. That's why there are scholars who say that yes, he is a disciple, and there are scholars who say no, he is not. But that is just deductions. John doesn't want to say. Now, in chapter seven, we see Jesus going up to Jerusalem to attend a festival. Towards the end of chapter seven, um we see the Jewish leaders accusing Jesus and condemning him. But yet Nicodemus spoke up for Jesus that before a trial we should not condemn someone. By doing so, um the other Pharisees began to uh insult him, um, sneered at him. Um Are you also from Galilee? If not, why are you you know trying to speak up for this man? Um so from this incident we can see that um John is deliberately ambiguous again. He did not say whether Nicodemus is a believer or not. But yet we see him um portraying Nicodemus as being um attempting to defend Jesus. We in this sense we can kind of like um guess that you know perhaps he is a believer, but we're not very sure because John didn't say so. Now, by the time we come to chapter 19, we see Nicodemus bringing a lot of spices for Jesus' burial. And burial is a family business, you know, people bury their own family members, and by doing so with Joseph, he's actually identifying himself with the family of Jesus. But yet again, John is deliberately ambiguous. He still doesn't want to say whether you know Nicodemus is a believer or not. Right? So this is a second character which we see that he is an established Jewish leader. But his identity as a disciple of Jesus is again ambiguous and hidden. We do not know. And it seems that John is again deliberately doing this. So um did he did Nicodemus love his own dignity and honor more than God's glory? Perhaps not. If he really had been like that, he wouldn't dare to speak up for Jesus in chapter seven. And he wouldn't identify himself as part of Jesus' family by bringing all these spices with him. So from both characters we could see that um the way John portrays them, deliberately ambiguous, has this uh has a certain significance. As in it seems that John himself does not want to pass a comment or pass a judgment on these two whether what they did was correct or incorrect, or whether they should be classified as positive or negatively. They are just left um ambiguous deliberately. And I suppose that this truly reflects that life is very complex. Although John sets the standards high, there's no sitting on a fence, you can't put your feet in both camps. But in reality, we cannot be the ones who pass judgment on people who are struggling with fear, who have a lot to lose. And that is a very um, I find a very comforting message from John.
SPEAKER_03And in a sense, there's that and and there's the journey with Nicodemus, right? Is that is that right? Because there's a sense in which John gives us these three points that are almost tracking a journey. Chapter three, he's in perhaps in a different place to where he ends up in chapter 19. Uh in chapter three, he's very confused, isn't he? Jesus teaching about you must be born again, and he doesn't understand how how could how could that possibly be he's thinking physically and confused. By the end of chapter 19, is he so he spent quite a bit of money, is that what you're indicating? And he's acting like one of the family of Jesus taking that family responsibility. So I suppose there's the encouragement that we're on a journey with this as well. And and John, so you so your understanding of John using these characters, we've talked about the blind man being someone who really clears the bar, he's very bold and clear about his faith, and he doesn't care if he ends up ostracised for it. And then you've got those with more to lose, uh, Joseph Varamathia. And Nicodemus, who seem more secret and subtle, but nevertheless. The nice thing about Joseph and Nicodemus, the last thing we know about them is that they're acting in the world for Jesus, aren't they? They are taking they are in spending their money and their time and they're risking their reputation over the burial of Jesus. And I suppose that would be a lovely thought, wouldn't it, that we just take responsibility. Am I acting for Jesus in the world? Will the last thing that is known about me be that I've taken my responsibility seriously to follow Jesus? And so as we gather all this up, Chicho, I suppose I'm thinking, you know, there's a huge amount here for us because fear is a big challenge for many of us in the Western context today, more generally, but in particular as it comes to faith and following Jesus, what will other people think? Will I lose things that I hold precious if I'm known as a believer in Jesus? And yet your story also traces back to other contexts and your your own version, your own journey of facing some hostility in terms of your parents that you shared with us in part one. Gathering all of that up, I was thinking about that scene you alluded to when the disciples are in the locked room, right at the end of John's Gospel, and Jesus, the risen Jesus now, stands among them and says, Peace, uh, my peace be with you, my peace I give to you. What experience have you had as you've studied John? You've been, you know, you've really dug into the detail, you've you've traced out the contours of John's Gospel in your research. Can you say anything more personally around what kind of experience of peace have you had um through the challenges of life from from John's gospel and from the message he brings across?
SPEAKER_01Yes. Um I would say that after I received Christ facing my my parents and and telling them that I would like to go to church for worship is a great challenge. I kept quiet for during the weekdays. I I didn't go back home and then just proclaim that I'm a Christian. Yes, yeah. I kind of like um okay, I waited, but I knew that I I n wanted to go to church to worship on a Sunday and I have to let them know. So in the process, um I'm thankful that um teachings from the Bible gave me a lot of uh encouragement and prepared me to face the tension and the opposition that would be coming up. Um I would say that throughout the whole process I've experienced the peace of God, somehow the strength from God to tell my parents that I'm a Christian and I would like to go to church, despite knowing that they are just not gonna be happy and they're gonna uh scold me or you know, uh or be uh aggressive in their response. Um of course these went on for a number of weeks and they saw how persistent I was and but of of course they were also surprised that I did not overreact to them either. So to cut the story short over the months my parents did see the transformation that uh that's occurring in my life. The extremely short-tempered daughter has now looked different, behaved different. And to cut the story even shorter, my mother came to Christ about four years after I did. Wow. And my father came to Christ after twenty of a year. So it pays off.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Indeed.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Gigi, thanks so much for sharing both your amazing research but your your personal story has been really special to listen to as well. I've really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Trusting the Bible is a collaboration between Tindar House Cambridge and Bible Society. Thanks for listening to this episode. Make sure you subscribe to catch the rest of the conversation. If you'd like to know more about what we do, visit us online at tindarhouse.com or biblesociety.org.uk. We'd love to hear your thoughts on the series, so do get in touch either on Twitter at Tindell underscore house or email us at communications at tindelhouse.com.
