The Complex World of Hair: Education, Style, and Mental Health

Bree and Cassy discuss the importance of multiple perspectives, the differences in education, style, and background of professionals, and many anxieties one can experience in our profession, among many other side tangents.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Welcome back to Philosophy of the Barber. Hello, Cassie. Hello, hello. How are you doing this week?

SPEAKER_02 0:11

Oh, doing great. I'm grateful for the weather. I'm grateful for the walk-ins. It's a good week.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Nice. So this week, uh, we're getting a little more on the philosophy side of things, because I've I've got some thoughts of brewing. We'll see what uh your feedback may or may not be. Okay. So I've been seeing a lot of stuff online about like there are some influencers and barbers that get really hung up on their perspective of seeing new barbers doing the whole like know your worth pricing situation.

SPEAKER_03 0:50

Mm-mm.

SPEAKER_00 0:51

And like it seems like they have that perspective that that's the majority of new barbers. Yeah. And then I kind of get to thinking, like, I don't necessarily see that, but there are so many different perspectives in the barber world.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

That I suppose it kind of depends on number one, where you're standing from, what you're looking at. But like also the things you're exposed to versus not exposed to. And as wide-ranging as the internet is, we still kind of like the pages and follow the pages we gravitate towards naturally. And those are the things that like we attract to ourselves. So there are things that we're not gonna see if we're not going beyond what we're naturally interested in.

SPEAKER_02 1:35

Yeah, the scope of just our usual.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

Yeah. So it's kind of like got me thinking like what perspectives we don't cover when we typically talk about things. I mean we we do try to like expand our minds to go, all right, well, you know, devil's advocate, like put ourselves in other people's shoes, how could it look from their point of view? But like there's just some things we can't do like that. Yeah. Like we're two females in the barbering industry, so we have our perspective, but we can't possibly know what it's like for uh a male barber. Yeah. And we also a male barber in an urban setting.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:15

Cause New Hampshire, I mean, you might find a couple of pockets of urban.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:20

But by no means is it typical here.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

I mean, part of that should definitely be maybe we can reach out to, you know, have more guests on here to really get their perspective, because we can't. It doesn't matter how much we exercise our brain, we just we cannot fathom those situations if we've never experienced anything like it.

SPEAKER_02 2:40

Yeah, especially like the the all-male kind of environment. It's just a different kind of I feel like there would be a different kind of bravado amongst the group.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

Well, and just the atmosphere, like the competition feeling, the the way men interact with one another is just Yeah. It's fundamentally different. Yep. And as soon as a woman enters the room, everything changes. You're not wrong. So, I mean, that's just the reality of what it is. Which is fine. I mean, because it's the same way. Reason I stayed away from salons. Yeah. It's like I don't want to be in all female areas. Nope. I mean, we're an exception because we constantly have males in here. Correct. And two women, totally fine.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

Two women, safe.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

Three or more?

SPEAKER_03 3:26

Hmm.

SPEAKER_00 3:29

No, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 3:30

Things can get a little dicey.

SPEAKER_00 3:33

And then it's it's also like the like m my personal opinions on hair industry events. Like they're catering to what they're used to dealing with, like the type of barber shops that they market to and everything. They don't they don't appeal to I'd say the majority of rural barbers. Yeah, fair enough. Because like that's not their target audience. Like, how many rural barbers do you know that give a crap about what kind of sneakers you wear? Not many. No. Like we got different priorities. Yeah. But it's not a bad thing. We just got different stuff. Yeah. Um, so even in the marketing world where you're trying to, you know, catch cast the widest net possible, you're still like limiting yourself.

SPEAKER_02 4:26

In some way, shape, or form. I feel like there's almost it's almost like there's a a product and or tool line that markets directly for different areas and different perspectives. Like there's a realm for the urban side, there's a realm for the more rural side as far as like products and stuff go.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

Is there?

SPEAKER_02 4:47

I feel like what? See, now you're making me do the because I've seen the urban.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

Don't get me wrong, I've seen the urban marketing. Babeless is phenomenal at it. But I would really like to know what you consider to be uh marketing a little bit more towards the rural. We're choosing the most difficult word to say repeatedly. Yeah, basically. The backwoods barbers. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I don't know, because my brain's just pulling j strictly all the urban, so maybe they don't even Because I mean I I would say that maybe the closest thing that I might agree with would be if a company is marketing by way of the classic old school barber vibe. Yeah. Even then though, I find that you you'll see that with product lines, but not with tool companies. Yeah, yeah, fair. Tool companies seem to be entirely on the the burst fades, the designs, you know, that type of clientele. Where it's like, I mean, don't get me wrong, like that that's a tool you need in order to do that. Yeah. Solid. But you still need a tool that will do your you know, lock stock haircuts. So I don't know. It's it's interesting, it's kind of like being a lefty versus righty. Like there's a reason why tools cost so much for lefties, and it's because we're only 10% of the population. So you're gonna market towards 90% of the population. Yeah. I get it. Like that's where all the money is. Yeah. So basic business, I understand why my stuff costs more because it's a bigger pain in the butt to make. And you get a much smaller pool to market. But I mean, at the same time, applying business tactics to different levels of businesses, nobody can be everything to everybody. Yeah. So, like, I I don't necessarily fault any company that is choosing it a lane for their marketing. Like, they're they're picking their their clientele, just like barbers do. I was gonna say it's very similar to how we do though. Yep. So you can't be everything to everybody, you shouldn't try to be. Yeah. Stick with what you know, what you got, and what you're confident in, and you'll attract that. Just make sure you don't get bored with it after 10 years. Yeah. You set yourself up for failure when you go, you know, I've been doing skin fades for 10 years, and I'm really bored with them. I'd really like to get some other haircuts. Should have thought of that before. You just built yourself a 10-year-long reputation.

SPEAKER_02 7:31

Yeah, so make sure you really, really do love it.

SPEAKER_00 7:34

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 7:35

Like you with your face shapes.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

Oh yeah. If if you can honestly continue to say the same phrase and mean it after 12 years, if I could shape faces all day, I would give up cutting hair. That is still to this day 100% true. But I just went down to my barber school today and was talking with a student who uh has one of his barber licenses, so he's finishing up his hours for his master barber. Yep. So he's been working in a shop and going to school at the same time. And it's great to hear that like he wants to make sure that he doesn't plateau. Like he wants to learn things that are outside of the the basic formula that he learned in school. Like, I mean, it's great he's set up in a shop where the shop owner and a lot of the people that work there are graduates of the same borrower school, so like they have the ability to help grow him and help his uh his techniques. But like he wants to learn things beyond just the foundational wheelhouse of the school. And I mean, you can learn tips and tricks even if anytime you've been in the industry for a bit, like you figure things out uh with your coworkers and everything, just like more efficient ways to do things. But he wants to like see if he can like learn to braid, which is not a focus at our barber school, and uh you know, do other things that are I mean, unfortunately, we've had this conversation before, but it's not been on the air of like things we didn't focus on in school, yeah. Like if he wants to like actually give a luxurious shampoo, sorry, barber school's not where you learn that, yeah, yeah. Um, you know, it giving various other services that you may find in a more urban area, but we don't heavily cover here, yeah. Because it's just like there's not a huge market for it. So it's nice to see someone with a drive in barber school that like recognizes even with his first few months at a shop, that he could quickly plateau with his skills, and he doesn't he wants to avoid that. So he's got the initiative to reach out to other barbers he knows have extended their skill set in a similar way that he's looking for for guidance. Oh, that's good. That's really good. So it's not all new barbers are all about the, you know, know your worth. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:04

Yeah, I very much came into it because I'm only almost four years into this industry, and I very much came into it. Like I had to like work my way up. I knew that I had to start with a cheaper lower haircut because like I was new and I had to work, I had to climb a ladder to get to a certain point. I definitely didn't just come in guns hot.

SPEAKER_00 10:27

Well, and part of that's skill and part of that's confidence, because confidence and skill are not necessarily always aligned. Yeah. Sometimes one is higher than the other. Yeah. And I would rather somebody have higher skill than confidence, because confidence can be built incrementally to be healthy. Whereas somebody who lacks the skill but has the confidence. Mm-mm-mm-mm. No thank you. Because you're not open to learning, which means your skill's not gonna improve. Then the the confidence needs to be lowered to match the skill and then build them both up. Humility is a a good virtue in an educational setting, especially. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 11:11

We want progress and growth.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

We have to start somewhere. Which means you have to be open to the concept that you don't know something.

SPEAKER_02 11:17

Yeah. Oh yeah. That was like one thing I had to make sure that I stayed like steady in, because I had no problem like asking questions in a school setting, you know what I mean? Because like that's what we're there to do is ask and learn. And so I just made sure to continue to carry that mindset into my shop setting since I was in a position where I got to have an in-training title and a mentor that was there whenever I needed her and stuff. So I made sure to just keep that mindset of like, ask. It's not afraid to ask questions. If that's what they're here for, that's what they want to ask for. Like if they're willing, ask.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

I don't think the thought ever occurred to me that somebody would be unwilling to answer a question for me. Yeah. But I'm just that weird person that is super inquisitive. Mm-hmm. And I guess I I make the assumption, which is not necessarily accurate, uh, that because I'm so open to answer anybody's question about anything that everybody else is too.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:14

So I'm always gonna have the balls to ask. Why not? Why would you gatekeep? Like, I don't I don't understand. It's knowledge, it's not like I'm gonna take it from you if you give it to me.

SPEAKER_02 12:24

Yeah, I have an irrational fear from when I was a child of making people upset with me. So that was where that by asking questions? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:30

Were you the why ten times child? Yeah, why of course.

SPEAKER_02 12:34

Why do you ask?

SPEAKER_00 12:40

Alright, yeah, I get that.

SPEAKER_02 12:42

Yeah, so I'm I it was good to know that I could continue that uh asking questions demeanor and I wasn't gonna get shunned.

SPEAKER_00 12:50

Good. But you definitely needed that reassurance before. I I think I was more of the um it's not motorcycle week anymore. Shh. I think I was more of the shut up and listen for as long as humanly possible to see if they answer my question so I don't have to ask it. And then when they didn't, then I would ask it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:14

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

I'm better about that now. I'm so very much a shut up and listen person. Like I don't want to say nothing. If I'm there to learn something, I'm just watching, listening the whole time. Soaking it up like a sponge to everything. I am more vocal about questions now, though, because I realize that most things are on a time schedule. It's like, well, I only have you for another 20 minutes, and I really like this question answered. Yeah. And maybe like five other people in this class also needed it answered. Mm-hmm. It's funny how um humility can apply and be beneficial in many different applications. Like, don't get me wrong, I I I love a confident barber. It it instills confidence in your client, uh, in your skill set. Like you gotta exude confidence, yeah, not cockiness. Um there's a difference. But having humility to admit like that you don't clearly understand what they're saying the first time. Yeah, yeah. Yes. To you know, confirm, make sure that there is clear communication, like being willing to extend that and go and not just the mm-hmm, got got you, yeah, totally got you. Yeah, yeah. And then screw it up. Don't just be a yes man, still understand.

SPEAKER_03 14:31

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 14:33

We witnessed that. Mm-hmm. I'm sure anybody who's worked in more than one shop has witnessed that at some point. But I feel like you can tell, at least I can tell when somebody's being a yes and they're not listening to me. Ooh, it pisses me off real quick. Agreed. It's very much like a oh really? Tell me what I just said. Yeah. Bring it back. Yeah. Because I don't believe you, I want to hear it out of your mouth. But I'm that kind of witch with a bee. I'm okay with that. This served me well so far. Yeah. I I'm a little more passive. You're so friendly.

SPEAKER_02 15:08

I'm a stuffer.

SPEAKER_00 15:10

You're a what? A stuffer. A stuffer. Of emotions. Uh hmm. I become passive. So you keep them inside? Yeah, sometimes. I've I've not seen that. Of course you don't do that.

SPEAKER_02 15:22

You're different.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

You're a fountain. It's different here.

SPEAKER_02 15:26

This is the safe zone. I don't have to stuff here. You are equally as strong as me. Like we are both strong. I don't have to be strong for you. Sure. So I get to be a fountain if necessary.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

I feel like we established that even before we moved here.

SPEAKER_02 15:44

Yes. Yeah. Oh, yeah, I don't have to be as strong around her. No, she's got this. Aside from you, I'm a stuffer.

SPEAKER_00 15:53

Okay. I will believe you.

SPEAKER_02 15:54

Take your word for it.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

I haven't witnessed it myself, but anything's possible. I feel like Saturday was the first time you probably saw me anxious. Yeah? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:07

That was wild.

SPEAKER_00 16:09

You were so quiet. You went, she knows these people and she's so quiet.

SPEAKER_01 16:17

I was friendlier to your friend family room than you were.

SPEAKER_00 16:24

What are the people at the table? All of them. Any of them.

SPEAKER_02 16:29

You were great when we were alone playing cornhole.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

Yes. I'm great one on one. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 16:35

Three or more.

SPEAKER_00 16:39

There's too many energies in the room. Like I can't fully connect with everybody. It's just too much.

SPEAKER_02 16:44

No, there's lots of fun though.

SPEAKER_00 16:46

This is why I have a suite. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:48

Imagine how I would have been on the main floor of the old shop. I know. I I honestly do try to picture sometimes like what you would have been like, because I've never seen you work with directly with other people. I've never seen you in that kind of I don't have a personality.

SPEAKER_00 17:04

Mmm. Like not much of one. Yeah. And in that sort of situation, the three or more stations, the amount of sound that is happening, like I do not compete for sound.

SPEAKER_01 17:19

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:20

I am a soft-spoken person, hence the volume levels on our microphones being so different. Like I I refuse to raise my number one, I know it when I raise my voice, I sound pissed. Yeah. So I don't want to raise my voice at all because I don't want anybody to think I'm pissed unless I'm pissed. And then I'll do that. Fine. You reserve that for the emotion. Yes. And for accuracy's sake. I like being accurate. But yeah, I will not compete. I will shut down. Like if it gets too loud, I will stop speaking. Period. Yeah. My clientele became far more loyal once I moved to the back room. Mm-hmm. Because they really got to know me.

SPEAKER_02 18:04

Yeah. You got to like be yourself a little bit more.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

Yes, they see me relaxed in my space, fully confident and fully engaged with them, not having to worry about whether or not a kid's choking on a Lego, whether or not people are answering the phone professionally, or any of those other like management things. I'm not having to pay attention to the whole room. Yes. Like my limitation slash superpower is that I can either do ten things and get them done, or I can do one thing and be nice and have a personality.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:37

So you kind of have to choose. Like, as soon as lockdown hit for COVID, there were 10 things that needed to be done. And nobody cared if I was nice or not.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:46

So I was like, cool, I can get these things done. Not a problem. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

SPEAKER_02 18:50

But in a regular setting, people prefer you to have a personality. It's funny because you're kind of your reasoning for stick taking a step back and doing a sweet style in the old shop. It's kind of like was always my fear of owning a shop. Like people would ask ask me all throughout school, oh, do you want to own your own shop one day? Yada yada yada. And I the answer was always no for me because I was afraid of that managerial position. Because, like, in theory, you don't usually start as a one-person shop and stay as a one person. Like, usually at some point, you gather at least another person. And in my head, I'd only ever seen three plus chair shops. So in my head, I was like, I wouldn't be able to run a solo shop. That means I'd have to have people working under me. That becomes a whole thing. And then I'm not at any longer focused on what I'm trying to do with the connection in my chair, and I have to worry about everything else. And that was my biggest fear about being a business owner. But I think it works out so well here because we're in such a sweet style position.

SPEAKER_00 19:56

Well, and the irony from my barber journey is that I always wanted to own a shop. That was the that was what took me to barber school was hearing the ad on the radio about a barber program. And the first thought that entered my head was, What will my barber shop look like? And like immediately having thoughts of what I wanted to create in a barber shop. Yeah. And this is not anything that you've seen. That was not the first thought. Um but like the act of cutting hair was never part of the decision. Like I just assumed that I would learn. That was never a question in my mind. I wanted to make I wanted to be a barber. I wanted to use a straight razor. Like that was my focus. But yeah, I just assumed that, oh, I just gotta go to barber school, you know, they'll teach me what I need to do. And boom, I'll be my own boss. Because and that was really the thing of like always wanting to be an owner. Because like I've worked for other people, and I'm I can be a very good worker. Because I'm very efficient when people allow me to be. But because I'm constantly looking on how to make things, processes more efficient, if I find a way for that to happen and my supervisor is not on board with it, I have now found a wall. Yeah. And when I find a wall, I leave. Yeah. Because you have now stunted my progress in being the most efficient human possible. Yeah. In whatever context. So rather than being a support like a supervisor should be, if it's benefiting the overall mission of the company. Yeah. I go, well, then why am I here? You're not letting me be better. You're not letting anything be better. Yeah, you're not even letting you help the situation. Right. Which should be everybody's focus. Yes. In the case if I were a nonprofit, my goal would be to make it so I didn't have to exist anymore. Yeah. Like that should be the goal of any nonprofit is to solve whatever your mission is, not to perpetuate your existence. So as soon as I've found that I hit walls, I'm out. Like peace, goodbye. I'm going in another direction. Yeah. Same thing with education. Like I will suck people dry of their knowledge. And then if you don't have anything else to offer me, you're now a wall.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:19

Yeah, okay. So it's like, alright, on to the next. Yep. So what can I learn now? Yeah, I'm I'm very much like that as far as like progress. Like, I'm very uncomfortable chilling in this, like almost like a complacency, like a stagnant area. I fear complacency in waiting rooms. Like the worst. Hell is a waiting room in my opinion. So that's why I was like, alright, I I should I need to be an owner. Because heaven forbid I find a random shop that wants me to do things the complete opposite way that I learned.

SPEAKER_02 22:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

Like I've seen people go from barber school into a shop that cuts hair totally different way than they do. And they're ill-equipped to teach them anything further because they don't understand the method of haircutting.

SPEAKER_03 23:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:11

Which is very unfortunate. Like to not be able to expand your understanding beyond the procedures that you learned is crazy to me. Yeah. I mean, even when you and I first met, we had the conversation that was I was very upfront with you going, hey, if you want to work here, like the issue you may have is that we were taught at a different educational institution. Yep. So that might be a struggle for pointers. Yep. But never once would I ever expect anybody to unlearn what they learned in school.

SPEAKER_02 23:46

Yep. No, you have to do it this way in order for me to any in any way, shape, or form assist you.

SPEAKER_00 23:51

But I had a barber that I had taken on because he worked at a shop that insisted on that, and that broke down his confidence completely. And he was about ready to quit the whole profession when I agreed to take him on and build him back up from what he learned in school. Yeah. And then he ended up being a ray barber until he decided to go to a different profession. But he went to a different profession still having barbering in his back pocket. It's not like he failed in the profession.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

He succeeded very well, enough to fund him going back to school to learn something else.

SPEAKER_02 24:26

I would say, I guess, in a way, my first shop was kind of similar, but at the same time, like he kind of tapped into us early enough that we were already had kind of some of his skill set in mind. Like, demos already, like we were already introduced to his technique while we were still in an educational setting. So like we were already able to take some of the things he taught us and then utilize them in our school setting. So then when I went into my like in training and was getting like the one-on-ones with another barber and getting walked through a whole haircut, it wasn't luckily, it wasn't completely different from my education. So I got lucky in that aspect, but it's still all very much same same concept as far as like doing it his way. You very much learn it his way. The only people that don't get it like that is if you have like five plus years in the barber industry and don't need to do the whole in-training thing or whatever. But other than that, you learn his method. So and everybody does his method in the shop.

SPEAKER_00 25:34

Did your school often bring in um guest barbers to demo?

SPEAKER_02 25:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 25:42

So that's like part of your education is seeing how people cut differently. So I will say that that is one thing that my educational institution did not do, and I feel like it's understandable when you're building a foundation. Yes. Yeah. Um I mean, but it's also the very different focus on what they prioritize your limited amount of time there. Yeah. Like your school definitely gave you tips and tricks on how to execute what you're going for in a like timely manner. So like they they they showed you shortcuts in some ways. Yes, yeah. Uh, whereas my school definitely focuses more on the ability to execute a procedure with minimal tools. Yeah. And I feel like both have real-world application and are good. I think that tips and tricks are a little bit more likely to be picked up in a shop setting after school. Whereas your first year out of school, if you dropped and broke a tool in the middle of a haircut, yeah. What would you do? Screwed.

SPEAKER_02 26:49

Yeah. Screwed. Borrow someone else's tool. Right. Like that's honestly that's it. I wouldn't I would, or depending, I would very much struggle, like at that time would have struggled attempting to do like a clipper over comb thing, but like that would have been a struggle. That wouldn't have been something that I felt comfortable even attempting. Right.

SPEAKER_00 27:10

Whereas if you if like people from my school in those situations, like were trained for those situations. Yes. So we wouldn't bat an eye at that situation. Yep. I go, oh, you have an emergency phone call and you've got to be out of this chair in 60 seconds? Not a problem. Yep. Alright, here you go. You look passable and you don't have a big old line in your head. Like, those are the things that we train for there. Or like real-world oh boy moments. Yep. Like, I think they they give you all the butt poker moments in school so that you have minimal amounts of those out of school. Yeah. Because I mean it's always best to learn those things with a safety net. It's handy and confidence building when you have a tool in your arsenal that, oh, when you get to a point in a haircut where it's like, hey, there's a line here. I've got a thing that'll take care of that. Yeah. Because those are the parts that out of school we would kind of struggle with outside of like the last maybe 50 hours of your program where things start to really click if you're doing the barber one. Mm-hmm. Because I mean 800 hours, it's not a lot.

SPEAKER_01 28:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:23

And sometimes it does take 700 for you to finally get things to start clicking, and you're like, oh, I get it now. Yeah. That shadow 1A will totally take care of it. Yeah. But we're not even issued 1A's, like in school.

SPEAKER_02 28:38

Same, we have to buy those. That's not part of the original set that we got either.

SPEAKER_00 28:42

That is definitely one I that's one of the first tools I would recommend a student buying out of school. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:49

Or while in school. Yeah, I was gonna say, as soon as you can afford to do it, just go ahead and add that to the Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:55

1A. Yep. Gonna need that. It gets used almost as much as my one and a half. Which is the most used blade in my tool set. Fair. Can you say that for your half guard?

SPEAKER_01 29:07

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:09

Well, and I have been using my blades more more often. And my two and my one and a half get used the most.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

What do you use still have to live with the two?

SPEAKER_02 29:19

My bolt. Why don't you use the one and a half? It depends on what I'm doing with the haircut. Sometimes they're like little fuller here.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

I tend to only use a two if I'm doing a medium fit. Or yeah, or longer, obviously.

SPEAKER_02 29:32

Yeah. Yeah. I get a lot of those though.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

Right. So. Yeah, my three and a half, one and a half, and one eight definitely get the most. Because even sometimes, like I'll if I'm keeping a three and a half low, I'll just go straight to the one and a half from the three and a half. Because you can just adjust it on its toe a little bit and it becomes a two. So I don't even have to go back and change another blade out. I can just adjust the angle. Mm-hmm. I would say I try and shy any both cut people away from a two because uh it looks fuzzier than a one and a half. Yeah, maybe. Now there used to be a blade, they don't make it anymore, the two and three-quarter. Oh, okay, yeah. That was perfect. Really? It didn't have the fuzziness of the two. Oh, okay. It was great. I wonder if I still have one somewhere. Might. Got enough random things sitting around here. Might be a random blade somewhere. Niche blades that like a hundred years from now people be digging up stuff and be like, what was this? Or like oddities in museums to be like Oh, they used to have a two and three-quarter. What did they use that for? Yeah. Such a random number. Like why did they choose two and three quarter versus a a two and a half? Because that doesn't exist either. I don't know. They did have a one and a quarter for a bit.

SPEAKER_02 30:49

Really?

SPEAKER_00 30:50

Yeah. I couldn't tell you what the length of hair left. I think the two and three quarter was like five sixteenths or something. I don't know. I can't math anymore when it comes to the blade lengths. I memorized those, knew them for a really long time. I don't I don't have to test anymore. I never memorized them. Somebody asked for half an inch on top, boom, three and three quarter. I check my plastics.

SPEAKER_02 31:20

I'll admit it, I'm not not good like that, guys. I'm getting better the more I check my plastics. But it's just it's so rare that someone asks it by that measurement. True. It's so rare.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

I've had some people uh we've had some Europeans come in and ask for a millimeter measurement, and I've had to check the blade lengths for that. Yeah. Thankfully they're printed on there. We have the millimeter lengths printed on here, but they are in succession a fraction of an inch. I get it. Like they were made in the US. Yeah. Originally. Yeah. When we established a number system, if it ain't broke. Just make sure you can sell it everywhere else in the world by printing the millimeter measurements. What else did you uh shied you away from ever wanting to be a business owner?

SPEAKER_02 32:08

Mostly that. Honestly, I was I was afraid that doing that I would be so focused on everything else that I would lose my passion. And I was so passionate about connecting with people and like making people feel good. Like that's what drew me to the business, is like rarely people leave feeling displeased. And I was afraid that I would lose sight of what was important doing that.

SPEAKER_00 32:36

That quite the uh opposite journeys with barbering. Yeah. Because it took me several burnouts to figure out that that was why I loved barbering.

SPEAKER_02 32:46

Ah.

SPEAKER_00 32:47

Like I didn't consciously know that at the beginning. That's not why I sought it out.

SPEAKER_02 32:52

Yeah, that's exactly what I wanted. Not necessarily, but like the hair industry, that's exactly what I wanted. I liked because it took me so long for me to find a love and a like for myself. And so, like, knowing that, but I always felt good after a hair appointment. No matter how I felt in my day-to-day life about myself, I still always felt fantastic after a hair appointment. And like that's what really drew me into it. And then I just not semi-unfortunate because men can be just as um complimentative, but the semi-downside of my switch into barbering, though, is I don't get a lot of that um instant gratification verbalized. The expressiveness, yes, yeah, females are far more expressive. Yes, so and I I do love that part of it because words of affirmation, reassurance, all the good stuff, positive reinforcement, all those things. Um and so like that is the kind of a downside because I do feed so much on the expressiveness of that, and I don't get that much with the fellas, but they show it in action though. And well, and double flip side of that is when I do get it now, it means so much more, and like the compliments are way different and hit in way different ways. Like, I will always like and I keep getting it more recently too, is my favorite one is I love the way my hair grows back in. Yeah. That's not something a woman's gonna say. No, they don't care how it grows back in, they care what's coming back out through the top, how much has grown out. That's what they care about. And men are like, yes, I like the way it grew in, it wasn't a pain in the butt, like I didn't have to. I'm just like, yes.

SPEAKER_00 34:35

Well, it looks good for the whole duration of the haircut that I like to do. Until I see you again. Yes. And I mean, I feel like that's really the difference between cosmetology and barbering when it comes to the haircutting portion of our license.

SPEAKER_03 34:46

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 34:47

Is barbers being primarily precision haircutters care about the entire longevity of the haircut, not only hitting the hairstyle that you want now. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 34:59

And that's even like something discussed, even more so. Not saying that hairstylists don't also do it. I can't speak for how that they do their consultations. But even more so, like when I'm doing a consultation, if they're looking for a haircut that I don't think will agree with their cowlick because of the longevity of it, I'm like, alright, I'm willing to do this, but just know this could happen. And like if they still want to then proceed, because they're like, I'd rather just not deal with it now, cool. Then I'll shave your cowlick off if that's what you really want. But you will get the warning of like, alright, in a couple days it might be a little uh unfriendly to deal with. Do you want to deal with that? Okay, then here you go.

SPEAKER_00 35:38

Yep. Well, and I mean there are the trends right now though for hairstylists, like the more lived-in chemical service looks are more popular now. So I feel like females are kind of starting to want to have looks that are uh a little bit more on the low maintenance end. Yes, yeah. Because I mean, it's one thing to have like the fresh highlights and stuff, but it's a whole nother one to like the the balayage and the the shadow roots and like because you can have that longer between appointments. Yep. Which is smart and economical, and no one's gonna complain about it rather than them, you know, fresh, chunky highlights, and then it's like, oh, hello, line of demarcation.

SPEAKER_02 36:22

Best friend.

SPEAKER_00 36:25

Hello, early 2000s. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 36:27

I'm literally in my head mentally picturing this picture of me and my brother. We had like a before and after of this hair appointment that we had, and it was like one of my first few times getting highlights in the early 2000s. So chunky.

SPEAKER_00 36:42

Hello, Kelly Clarkson.

SPEAKER_02 36:44

We were at hair excitement. It was five dollars a foil. We got five foils. I'm sure that looked fantastic. Oh, it was great. There was like just three or four stripes across the top of my head, and then like a couple down the back.

SPEAKER_00 36:59

Five dollars a foil?

SPEAKER_02 37:00

That's what the deal was.

SPEAKER_00 37:01

How was that a deal?

SPEAKER_02 37:03

I don't know. That's just what it was.

SPEAKER_00 37:05

Even now, five dollars a foil, like what?

SPEAKER_02 37:08

I mean that's probably what it is. If you break it down per foil, because hair is expensive.

SPEAKER_00 37:14

Sure, but like they put a lot of foil- We've had a lot of inflation between like the early 2000s and now. Hair excitement, make it make sense.

SPEAKER_02 37:22

They just use more foils now. Yeah. They were able to get away with less back then.

SPEAKER_00 37:28

Uh I will say we do we sh other people use way more foils now. The the sections are so thin now. But I mean, that's what you gotta do to get those kind of results.

SPEAKER_02 37:40

Yeah, I was gonna say to get the real good evenness, that's what needs to happen.

SPEAKER_00 37:44

Mm-hmm. But uh, the amount of chunky foils on America's next top model. Yes. Yes. I love those old school reruns. I'm glad I was not in the hair industry during that time.

SPEAKER_02 37:59

Yeah. Yeah, beards didn't really exist.

SPEAKER_00 38:03

Well, beards didn't exist really like when I was in school, so it ain't been around that long.

SPEAKER_02 38:08

That's not a world I want to ever be a part of. I mean You feel about face shapes how I feel about beards.

SPEAKER_00 38:15

And that's fine. I mean I still like me a solid beard trim. Like it's very satisfying, especially with a nice transition into a fresh haircut. But if somebody wants me to straight raise or line up their beard, yeah, I'm totally gonna do that. Yeah. Please let me. The fact that I have one customer who is an everyweeker anyway with a beard, who doesn't want to shave midweek. I'm like, you can come in midweek and I'll shave it for you. You don't want to do it, I'm happy to do it for you. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 38:44

Twist my arm. I know, it's I just told one of my guys the other day, I was like, no, you can come in for just a beard trim in between haircuts. And they're like, I can? That's an option. I'm like, yes, absolutely. Like, oh game changer. Yeah, I'm like, yeah, you're welcome. Doesn't always have to be a bundle deal.

SPEAKER_00 39:04

Yeah. Because I mean it's not like you're getting a deal when you bundle them. No, we're just gonna be able to. We don't price like that. Just a bundle. Some places do price like that. They do. And hey, the fair, that's you know, get a discount for adding service. Cool. I prefer the classic a la carte. Yep. But I also charge the same amount for a buzz cut as I do for a really complicated long haircut. So haircut's a haircut. Haircut's a haircut. If hair's getting cut, it's a haircut. That was another thing online I saw recently. It was like people like giving people grief about like if somebody walks in and just wants like a two on top uh and lineup, charging the same price as any other haircut, like a fade or whatever. Yeah. It's like, yeah, it's a haircut. If you don't think it's that big of a deal, why don't you do it yourself? Yep. Because we're like, oh, I can walk do that in like ten minutes. Well then if you're doing that in ten minutes, you're the one who's devaluing your service. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:01

You can still take your time.

SPEAKER_00 40:03

Yeah, and you can still give them a quality experience. Like, whether or not you can shut your mouth and bust that out in ten minutes is immaterial. They're paying for the entire experience of being in your chair. Yep. And if you're wanting to shortchange them, then yeah, price them accordingly. But I don't want to do that to people. If you're gonna sit in my chair, I want you to have a certain expectation of the quality of experience you're gonna have with me. I don't care how big, small your head is, I don't care how much hair you come in with, how much hair you leave with, you are going to enjoy yourself. Heck, the people that seem to come and see me the most are bald. Yeah. Because they feel like of all the places, they get given time and attention. And therefore, they see the value. Yeah. You're rocking out a a two and a lineup in ten minutes. Yeah. Don't charge them as much.

SPEAKER_02 40:57

Easy peasy. But don't knock those that do. I mean, because if we want to go there, my personal opinion is that salons should charge as much as they do for a haircut. As far as the difference from like men's to women's. Men's are always much cheaper uh much cheaper than women's.

SPEAKER_00 41:12

I've never agreed with gender-based pricing. Yeah. Like, uh that's actually why I have my pricing the way I do. Is because hair has no sex. Mm-mm. Like I'm licensed to cut hair. Period. All lengths. Why? Like, because I have indoor plumbing, I suddenly need to be charged $45 for a haircut. Yeah. Yeah, in a salon where I'm not going to get as good a quality of a short haircut. Yeah. Like, but I go to a barber shop and that's okay for them to charge less for a way better haircut. Like, the people who don't who are like griping on barber shops for raising their prices, it's the at least in New Hampshire, our prices were stagnant for years. Like, stagnant at $16 a haircut. Now the barber school is charging $16 a haircut. Like things have gone up. Yeah. But also the skill set that barbers offer has increased. Despite the fact that we've always done better men's haircuts than salons typically would. Yes. So it's like, why? Mm-hmm. Why the price discrepancy? Yep. And I mean, I've always been a fan of charging for time. It doesn't matter what you're doing as a professional. Charge for your time.

SPEAKER_02 42:28

I was gonna say, and if you always just charge for your time, then the what you're doing is irrelevant. Because it's just your time.

SPEAKER_00 42:33

And you're never gonna feel resentment for like, oh man, I'm stuck doing a beer trim. I could be making more money doing a shave. Yep.

unknown 42:40

No.

SPEAKER_00 42:41

It's uh you're priced according to your time. So good. Yep. Could be like your therapist because you're doing a different type of exercise during that session, suddenly having a different hourly rate. How much sense does that make? Yeah. Like you're still there for an hour or 50 minutes or whatever. Whatever it is. I don't think it's ever really an hour. Because you still have to schedule the next one.

SPEAKER_02 43:07

Ah.

SPEAKER_00 43:08

Ah, I getcha.

SPEAKER_02 43:10

Oh no, I can't afford therapy. Barbers are cheaper.

SPEAKER_01 43:14

Yeah, exactly, exactly. I've got one right here. Where I can do my fountain.

SPEAKER_00 43:21

Got 12 years of experience. That's one of the things I love about barbering too. Like I I did want to go into psychology. Same. Before I went to the military. Couldn't afford it. Hence why the military service is. Yeah. I've always found individuals to be fascinating. I hate lumping people into groups. So sociology is not my thing. But psychology, yeah. Studying the individual. Fascinating. If you find people boring, you're not listening hard enough. Yeah. Agreed. Even just like little hints of things like tone of voice they greet you with, um pauses between. Between replies of like how they're doing, those types of things. Like they tell you so much whether they're using words or not.

SPEAKER_02 44:07

Yeah. Where they divert their eyes. Like if they do make eye contact in the mirror, or if they're like an eyes closed or like a just looking around kind of person.

SPEAKER_00 44:17

There's one thing that I've noticed recently is um wet how comfortable somebody is with speaking through the mirror. And it's I find it odd when people are uncomfortable making eye contact through the mirror. Yeah. They would rather make actual eye contact. I'm like, I have to multitask. Like I have to clean this tool and talk to you. Yep. Be efficient with me. It's still connections.

SPEAKER_02 44:43

Do you want me to turn towards you and shake this up onto your shoes? Or should I?

SPEAKER_00 44:48

Well, but also sometimes the um the proximity to somebody's face.

SPEAKER_02 44:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 44:54

It bothers me in my eyes. I feel like that's just a an eyeball thing. Like, if I'm three feet away from your face, I don't like sustained eye contact with you. Yeah, yeah. Because that's that's a little bit too intimate for me as far as distance. Yeah. I feel much more comfortable making eye contact with people with the mirror, so it's like six to eight feet. Yes. Like I can sustain eye contact and not a problem. Yes, yeah. I wonder why that is.

SPEAKER_02 45:28

I don't know. I'm gonna do some googling about it later, though. I'm curious.

SPEAKER_00 45:31

I'm sure it's probably like a it's gotta be like a intimacy bubble thing. Yeah. Some people just get uncomfortable with eye contact. Like sustained eye contact. I think that's one of the top five reasons why people find me intimidating. Because I can hold eye contact pretty well. Yeah. But like I make a point to look away and blink and those types of things when talking to some people for their sake.

SPEAKER_02 46:03

Because you're like, I'm fine. We can do this all day.

SPEAKER_00 46:06

Seriously, I I feel like I get I got a lot of practice it all the way the first time I ever heard in elementary school signs that a student is listening. Like I always made a point to give off those signs. That you were listening, yeah. Yes. Eye contact, uh like leaning forward slightly towards the teacher, like those types of things, not fiddling around with stuff. So like I've always done that. As soon as that was like brought to my attention, I'm like ingrained into it. Okay, this is what you want. Done. Eyeballs. Eye contact. That's right, they're blue. But then, you know, I learned how to cross with one eye. And in high school I was just a little bit on the mischievous side. While still of obviously following all the rules, because I do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh I went an entire English class in tenth grade with one eye crossed. Oh my gosh. Here's my least favorite English teacher.

SPEAKER_03 47:10

I mean, clearly.

SPEAKER_00 47:14

Just imagine a student just the whole time.

SPEAKER_01 47:16

No, absolutely not.

SPEAKER_00 47:19

Send you to the office or something.

SPEAKER_01 47:21

For what? I don't know. Making fun of my disability? Yeah, lazy eye. You're checked on.

SPEAKER_00 47:27

Are you looking at me or them?

SPEAKER_02 47:30

I was into good old-fashioned mischief.

SPEAKER_00 47:33

Yeah, but that was like hardcore mischief. Yeah. Real mischief. I didn't grow up in that kind of household. Pulden style. Real delinquent here. I feared I feared the wrath of my father too much for that. No, my mushy dad.

SPEAKER_02 47:47

He was just naive is a rude word. To use. But that. Unaware. Yeah, yeah. Very much just turned a blind eye. He's scared for real life.

SPEAKER_00 48:00

He had other things to can be concerned with. I will say though, my dad is actually one of the driving factors for being a barber and being the type of barber I am, which is a fun little dive into my own personal psychology. So once I realized that I could not, in my opinion, get the approval of him, I decided I would rather point my energy towards getting the approval of every male I come in contact with. Yep. So barbering is ideal for that. Yep. Perfect. Maximum numbers. That way I can pull out a slew of clientele going, see dad? They can't all be wrong. Yep. Maybe it's you. Look, they're all happy with me. Fair enough. Maybe you're not paying attention to something. Any other uh points? Mostly I think we got on the subject of what you didn't like reasons you didn't want to own a shop. Yep. Perfect. Yep. Do and love it.

SPEAKER_02 49:10

Turned out great so far.

SPEAKER_00 49:12

It's all about incremental improvements. Yeah. Just identify the things you have problems with and make sure that you eliminate them. Yeah. Step one, don't have other people. Oh. As opposed to like opening a shop with three chairs immediately. Yeah. Always. Just be willing to adapt and grow. Cool. So that was actually something I didn't mention. Was the reason why I opened a three-chair shop, even though I bought a one-chair shop. Mm-hmm. It was because I never like after working in two shops, I never wanted to be alone in a barbershop. Yeah. How ironic.

unknown 49:44

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 49:45

Though I'm still not alone in a barber shop.

SPEAKER_02 49:46

Nope. I also never wanted to be alone. That's why this work doesn't get.

SPEAKER_00 49:51

Yep. Not alone, but privacy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:55

Best of both worlds.

SPEAKER_00 49:56

Mm-hmm. Alright. Well, thank you so much for joining me for this conversation. I know you were a little concerned. Just only a little bit. But we made it through. A little anxious. Yep. Alright, we will see you all next week. Have a wonderful night.