Humanise The Numbers - for ambitious accountants in practice
Welcome to the 'Humanise The Numbers' podcast series. Here you'll find a whole series of interviews with the leaders of accounting firms who are building (or have already built) a firm of the future now! You'll hear key insights, key skills and key habits that underpin the success of these firms. Insights, skills and habits that can underpin your firm's future success too. It seems that when an accountancy firm connects their team and their clients to the numbers that really matter to them they transform the results for everyone. This is accelerated when the humanity of the way they work shines through too. That's why we're talking about ambitious accountants humanising the numbers.Here's what a director of a multi-partner multi-national firm said recently ."What I like about your podcasts is that they are real. They are not scripted and I appreciate the fact that your interviewees admit they don’t have all the answers but are willing to let you put that fact out on a podcast. It is what is going on at the front lines of great small accounting practices. I have now listened to about half of them, I intend listening to them all as each one just has a nugget that I am writing down to see if I can use in our practice at some stage."
Humanise The Numbers - for ambitious accountants in practice
Russ Byrd and Vicky Link of Byrd and Link
It's such a privilege when you get the chance to speak to a couple of business leaders who founded a firm with nothing just a few years ago – in fact, set the business up during lockdown – and then have grown rapidly since then.
Last year, the business grew by 6%, and the year before by 25%. This year, they’re looking to grow in excess of 25-30% again, possibly more.
It was a terrific opportunity to spend some time with Vicky and Russ from Byrd & Link – an audit specialist, as it happens – to discover the insights, the lessons, the strategies, that they've been applying to their business to fully engage with their team and, at the same time, build an offer that's meaningful and valuable to their client base, which include accountants, not just business leaders in need of an audit.
I hope you find real value and insight looking at an audit specialist and seeing how their lessons can be applied to your own firm. I hope you enjoy this podcast as much as I did.
You can find it at HumaniseTheNumbers.online, or go to your favourite podcast platform, check out Humanise the Numbers and look up Vicky and Russ from Byrd & Link. I look forward to seeing you there.
Please scroll down the podcast’s episode page for the contact information for Vicky and Russ and for the additional, downloadable resources mentioned in the podcast.
Welcome to the Humanize the Numbers podcast series Leaders, managers and owners of ambitious accounting firms sharing insights, successes and issues that will challenge you and connect you and your firm to the ways and means of transforming your firm's results.
Speaker 2:I think from the very start. So, like last week, we went out, russ and I went out and met a prospect client's accountant. When they actually say, yes, okay, we're going to trust you with one of our clients, at that point in time we will bring in Nathan, alice or Pida, you know who. So we're at very early doors. Once we have the engagement, we'll bring in one of the teams, so they start to get to know the team and they'll obviously bring in the client at that point in time as well, because you know, quite often up until that point we've not necessarily had introductions. At that point in time it works quite well our guys, their guys and the client having a meeting of some sort, and from there it means that everyone can put a face to a name and we all know who we're dealing with.
Speaker 1:What do you do to maintain a sense of calm, a sense of life work balance when you grow in your firm? 25 percent one year, then 60 percent the next year, then another 25, 30 or maybe even 35% the third year? Well, on this discussion with Russ and Vicky, from Bird and Link you'll hear how they are tackling that growth and what specifically they're doing to ensure their team are engaged, they're living their values out whilst delivering brilliant client care. Let's go to Vicky and Russ now.
Speaker 3:Hi, I'm Russ Bird, one of the co-founders of Bird Link. Vicky and I started the business back in July 2020 in the middle of COVID. Prior to that, I was a partner in a seven-partner practice, heading up the audit department, and decided to, along with Vicky, make our move to set up Bird Link. And here we are today, five years later, doing okay.
Speaker 2:I'm Vicky Link. I'm one of the co-founders. Russ has just filled you in a bit about Bird Link, my history. I've also worked at a seven-partner practice beforehand. Throughout my career I've done accounts and audit and tax and a little bit of tax very little in there as well. I have a young family relatively young 11 and 9-year-old need to make sure I get the ages right, so they keep me very busy outside of work brilliant and what about you, ross?
Speaker 3:yep, got a uh daughter who is uh very quickly turning 17, so this weekend saw us buying her, or she bought her first car. So that was very exciting or very scary and um. Outside of work and family, then I really enjoy fly fishing on an exquisite piece of water in the heart of the Cotswolds with a syndicate of about 12 or 13 people, which is a great form of relaxation. There's no mobile phone signals, no wi-fi, nothing. So sounds like heaven, just tranquility. How?
Speaker 1:lovely. So, uh, we started the firm in 2020. That's a good idea, isn't it?
Speaker 2:we thought so we thought we'd give it a go, didn't we? We?
Speaker 3:did.
Speaker 1:We did start the journey nine months before you got that yeah, before covid even existed, so and, but yeah so, but it does give an interesting framing to the the first question, which is um, your previous experience, previous firms and starting a business when we're in lockdown, um, and your journey from there to here five years later, what, what does the, what does the phrase humanize the numbers mean for you, ross?
Speaker 3:I think it's a very good question, obviously coming from yourself, I think. Technically, the world that we're in, particularly with accountants and auditors, is very tricky and you can get lost up in the world of jargon. So humanising numbers, from my perspective, I think, is taking the time out to properly understand what those numbers mean and learn to explain them in a way, and have meaningful meetings with your clients to actually translate what that means, but in a jargon-free environment, and so that they are then at ease with us and not feeling like there's a monster in the room when we're talking about numbers or audit processes or weaknesses in systems. A monster in the room when we're talking about numbers or audit processes or weaknesses in systems.
Speaker 1:Ultimately what?
Speaker 3:sorry, interrupted you I'd say that ultimately then kind of reverses into our ethos and our values within the business as to how we talk to people and clients, particularly yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:so because because you, you, you, exclusively audit, I know, is it still necessary to be that translator and explainer of the numbers to businesses which are relatively sophisticated, because they're having an audit, aren't they? It's not like they're startups who've never been here before. So I'm curious as to maybe an example story that you can share either of you around this. Yeah, I know, actually the translation piece, the interpretation piece, still is important within that audit space.
Speaker 3:Probably not so much around the numbers, but I think we are dealing with a lot of accountancy firms excuse me, who they themselves are having clients go through that audit threshold the first time. So, whilst they understand the numbers and their accountants are doing a really good job explaining those numbers, where we're coming in and providing management reports, letters of weakness around the systems controls and I think there needs to be that level of empathy around how that conversation flows so that we're not seem to be picking holes in everything but actually helping them protect the assets and the business itself.
Speaker 1:That's interesting. That's the empathy and audit. Who'd have thought those two words would show up in the same sentence. Do you want to build out on that vicky for me? What's you know? Because you're coming from, you know that general practice space, just wonder you know. And the way you're working with your team, how's that humanize the numbers piece play out across burden link um, I think it's um an interesting one.
Speaker 2:the team, do you mean as in our team, or do you mean as in yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Just to give an explanation there. There's the humanising the numbers piece towards customers and clients around the translation and interpretation and I love that, particularly with first-timers Russ that are dropping into the audit space Particularly with first-timers Russ that are dropping into the audit space that we need to be patient and empathetic and be helpful in explaining what's going on With the team. Vicky, we're in a different space, aren't we? But there's still the humanity of working with the team and still the numbers have to show up. So I just wonder how that's progressed since the start-up of the business and what it actually means to you.
Speaker 2:I think, for me, the humanised numbers is about me understanding what's driving me, what's motivating me to make those numbers, whatever they need to be, to make it work for us and, obviously, rest. You're going to have something that's your own goals what's driving you, as will our team members as well, um, and I think it's important that we all have common ground on those sort of areas, um to bring it together really and and consider what our values are, um, and how those are showing up as well right, okay, so you've both mentioned that values at the kickstarter.
Speaker 1:This then what so? What? How do? How do they? A? How did they come about? B? Uh, how are you using them on a day-to-day, week-to-week basis?
Speaker 2:we obviously had a good couple of sessions with yourself to help establish what are very kind of you to say, yes, you have to do the hard work, yeah with the values and I think we found and settled on four that we felt was quite true to us, you know, true to ourselves, and so therefore, it's not hard with the values, because they're what we're about, they're how we are in our everyday lives and I think straight talking is one of our values, which can be seen as a positive and, you know, can be seen negatively, but it, within the team, that allows us to be very open, um with one another and listen to one another as well right.
Speaker 1:Uh, there's an edge to that, though, isn't that plain talking bit, because it's dead easy to step away from. I'm going to avoid that conversation because it's quite challenging. As opposed to you know, plain talking means you've got to step into saying it as it is, which maybe needs, um, some sensitivity, does it?
Speaker 3:I think every conversation we have I said it earlier is we I mean, we've both been working together for a long time, so now I know how each other think to some extent and how we pitch ourselves in various conversations and there's always that level of empathy, whether we're dealing with staff or clients. And if it is a straight talking conversation, if it's a you, you know, if we're giving critical feedback, then there's a way of doing it without taking the importance of of that conversation away. You can always people are very good at fluffing, fluffing hard conversations up and actually you lose the impetus of what that conversation is really about and then they'll only hear the positives from that conversation, not the critique that was given in an empathetic way, but straight talking doesn't have to be negative does it.
Speaker 2:No, that's the other thing. Straight talking can be done in a positive manner, in a collaborative manner as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've not necessarily seen it in that light either. I'm curious. Is that I need you just to reference the other values now? You said you've got four. Vicky is, is there? One of the others shows up to facilitate the fact that this is a constructive conversation, not a destructive conversation, because straight talking could be interpreted either way, couldn't it?
Speaker 2:yeah, absolutely. We've got enjoy as being one of ours and collaborative and put those together to achieve. You know, the idea is that we achieve more together by working. So I think, if you build it out, we are, you know, in a collaborative, straight talking, in a collaborative way where we, you know, in an environment that we all enjoy. Collaborative way where we, you know, in an environment that we all enjoy working. So we're not tearing shreds off each other, that's not the idea.
Speaker 3:yeah, I think we've always, from day one, create or try to create this environment where there's no competition between each other and I don't mean at mine and Vicky's level as co-founders, but actually through all of the staff. There's no competition to win a client or to do more hours than somebody or to be more chargeable than somebody else. We're all working to that common goal that is for the benefit of Bird and Link, and then from that will come the benefits through the whole of the team.
Speaker 1:Right. So there's that focus in and around the benefits through the whole of the team. Right? So there's the um, that focus in and around the firm as a whole. So you've got to collaborate if that's going to work. Uh, but vicky, you said, look, this is about me and what's driving me. Well, everyone's got their own perspective. We're all human beings. So there's that. We've all got a selfish bone at the end of the day, haven't we? Um, so there's that almost a. Is there a trade-off there in terms of what's right for you and your career and your earnings and so on, and what's in the best interest of the firm? Uh, I'm just wondering how that plays out in, whether it be appraisals, you know, creative art reviews, whatever label you give them, and what's playing out on a weekly basis. So how does? How do you? How do you? How do you play that game where there's the selfish bit and the collaborative bit at play?
Speaker 2:I mean, the team's been relatively small, but there's now five of us, so we've just been going through a process of making sure we're doing pdrs and kpis and listening to what the goals, um, you know the guys are setting as individual goals for themselves as well as them, what we're trying to do with the business as goals as well and are you, in what way, are you building connections between what's important to them, their personal presumably personal career goals, or are you also talking about their personal personal goals?
Speaker 2:I think largely it's just around career goals rather than personal goals, personal personal goals um but their career. It's an interesting one because the guys we've got are senior, so they're they are. They have got personal goals, but perhaps not in quite the same way as when you start your training or something like that.
Speaker 3:I think their personal goals because of their personal circumstances are probably around, or they are around to some extent, their work-life balance as well. They don't want to be doing the long hours, tedious hours and huge amounts of overtime tedious hours and huge amounts of overtime because that's something they don't want in their career. And, by the way that the Bird and Link operate, I think that does give them the opportunity to not have that pressure on or that expectation on them to work those long hours.
Speaker 2:It is fairly indicative of audit firms, Right, okay, those those long hours, it is fairly indicative of of audit firms right okay yeah, I think we're trying to get that work-life balance back in there, something that when we left, it was very important to both of us to have work-life balance in there, and actually the guys we we've got in have all said work-life balance is really crucial to them because they might they've got interest outside of work or young families.
Speaker 1:It's really important yeah, I do wonder if what comes through in certainly some of these conversations on the pod is there's a? Um, you know there's a, a trend, there is a, a movement that's inevitable. We can't do anything about it, that actually there's more to life than you know a 50-hour, 60-hour week from a career perspective, in sacrificing the fact you can't see your children grow up or you can't go to a music festival or whatever the hot button is for you as an individual on a real deep personal level. I was talking to a large firm this time last week who essentially was saying look, this is an inevitability, there's nothing we can do about this.
Speaker 1:We have to build our businesses, our firms, around this cultural reference point now which is, look, you know, we've got a contract with them, we're paying them for 39 weeks, or 39 weeks, 39 hours or 37, whatever it is, or 39 weeks, 39 hours or 37, whatever it is, and that's what they're going to work, which is sort of fair, isn't it? Yeah, interesting. So the work-life balance where does that show up? Is that the fourth value? You mentioned three around enjoyment, collaboration, collaboration and straight talking yeah, I think the fourth one is better than yesterday.
Speaker 3:So we're trying to create environments that, that is, creates a corporate atmosphere or a work atmosphere, a team atmosphere. That was better than than yesterday, given the flexibility we have around work life, the the hours that we work and how that's interpreted into the team morale.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So better than yesterday collaborate, enjoy and let's talk straight, straight, talking, the four key. So we've got a pure audit firm, so technical work, really, you know, at the sharp end of that technical piece, sophisticated clients because of the scale of the business that's associated with audit, and we've established a business model on on core values. So the enjoyment piece, I can see how that's connected with the, the work-life balance, so that's going to feature in there. Um, better than yesterday. I like that. Having just come out of a lean process, managing, uh, management workshop, and where everything's about improvement, how does that better than yesterday show up within burden link?
Speaker 2:well at the moment we are just, um, because it's our a bit quieter, for us we've used the time to actually review all our processes. So we're trying to figure out, you know, things that have gone well, things haven't gone well. And from that we're trying not only just with the actual audit process but across our, our client experience. How can we improve? What can we improve to make it better than yesterday, really better than?
Speaker 3:last year.
Speaker 1:Would you build on that, Russ? How would you build on that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so we've increased personnel. Back end of last year we took an extra two people on to boost the team. But what that will be interpreted to this year will hopefully allow Vic and myself to go out and form better relationships with other firm of accountants that we're working with, leaving the guys back in the office to do the day-to-day work. We'll step back slightly from that initially, but as the peaks and troughs work through the workflow cycle, then we will obviously be stepping back in to cover those shortfall of resource. But it is to build those relations.
Speaker 2:We're also looking at potentially data analytics, aren't we? And how we might be able to use that. We're not saying we definitely are. We just get running a project, um alongside the processes at the moment to see whether or not there's how that might work for us where, where?
Speaker 1:where might that lead for you, vicky?
Speaker 2:I think efficiencies and things like that, but not in the short term. I don't think. I don't think.
Speaker 3:And not for every audit. I think there's a time and a place for it, and I don't think data analytics will suit all of our client base, but it will probably suit half of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay, so better than yesterday is connected with process improvement. When times are quiet, it's the time out time. I think that in itself is a powerful insight. Every firm, every leader, every manager listening to this is going to have an ebb and flow of work during the year, but what you're saying is, during the calmer times, the quieter times, that's the time to do a deep process review. And also that what did you call it? The client experience piece. So there's two things at play there client experience, process review. Yes, clearly the two are connected. What have you done in and around managing that client experience there?
Speaker 3:We are looking at. So there's, as I said, the resource that we took on at the end of the year is freeing up Vicky's and my time to some extent, and we're going to build relationships with the firm's accountants who we're working with, and there'll be a pre-onboarding piece around that in terms of are the clients right for us? How do they see us working with them? The reasons why they haven't got the audit resource whether it's due to being conflicted out, excuse me or they're not audit registered themselves the audit piece will go through into the middle and then the tail end of that will be us conducting interviews and having meetings with them to see how that has gone Okay.
Speaker 1:So it sounds as though there's a. Let's establish clarity around the expectations of the way we're going to work. Let's crack on. Do the audit work for the, the, the business that you're working with, um, and then there's the what I termed the after action review. Let's unpack how well we did. What do we need to improve? What needs to shift? Okay, needed shift, um, okay, all right. So is that something that's been working, russ, or is this an initiative that's just kicking in now from um, the review that you've done recently?
Speaker 3:probably just kicking off now, something we've been looking at since the start of january. Um, it's all scheduled to be rolled out before the end of march or at the end of march it was quite an interesting.
Speaker 2:We did some client stories on our website last year and some of the feedback that we had in the client saw the experience versus how we saw the experience and you know there's sometimes an expectation gap, so I think it was quite an eye-opener in a positive way.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, it's a good deep, qualitative experience, isn't it? So you set out to build case study stories and then actually the insights from that are actually directing the future progression of client care, internal systems that support that and so on. Yeah, I think that's neat.
Speaker 3:And because we work with other firms of accountants, it's understanding who that client is as well.
Speaker 2:That's taken us a while, hasn't it?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because it's not. The accountant is a client and then we've got the actual end client. So it's um.
Speaker 1:There's two different clients and therefore slightly two different journeys there as well yeah, there's a layer of complexity there isn't there, so I'll dive into that complexity in a second. I'm now curious as to um, the process review and the client journey, the client experience piece. Is that something you two have sat down and worked on? Or rather, how have you worked with the team on that? What was the process?
Speaker 2:We sat down in January and said this is what we wanted to do with the team. So we had a day and we kind of broke it down into different areas of what we're get all responsible. So all of us are responsible for doing part of the journey and then coming back and reporting back into the team as a whole. Um, for their, you know, to do the collaborative bit, so we can all add our bit to it.
Speaker 3:And if they're involved in it, we've got their buy-in as well. It's rather than us instilling something on them. Um, if they like the process that they put themselves, they're more likely to live it and breathe it.
Speaker 1:To follow through on so did you say you took a day out and worked on that together? Did I understand that right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we took a day out to talk about what the strategy was, what the aim was, what we were going to try and do, what the method behind it. Strategy day to some degree, and then we broke down the journey into different responsibilities to different people, depending on what their likes might be or what they might not want to be involved with.
Speaker 1:Right. So that was the team choosing one area they wanted to build out.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because it suited them and suited their interests, and so on. So I'm trying to get a handle on how this day went. So we're all in it together. We've got an explanation on where we're going strategically. What really matters core purpose, values, um, wanting to raise the bar in terms of client journey and therefore processes and then, if I've understood you right, you then went your separate ways, created something and came back together on the same day, or did it work in a different way?
Speaker 2:we're still working on it at the moment, because we have also still got some work going on, so we've all got deadlines. We had a catch-up last week, didn't we, where we all reported back in as to where we were at that point in time brilliant, brilliant.
Speaker 1:So that's a? Um sounds like a deep and genuine collaboration that's going to deliver an end result on two or three improvements, or are you looking for seven or eight improvements? What sort of scale of change are you looking for here?
Speaker 3:I think two or three improvements. It's the, the core of it is the is the actual audit itself, which is obviously prescribed by the, by regulation.
Speaker 1:So it's the top and the tailing, and looking at, as Vicky said earlier, looking at the efficiencies that can be gained with different forms of software, um, top and tail, by know, face-to-face conversations with, with the firms accountants for Vicky and I to move that forward right, so you've got customer one firm of accountants who require you to request you want you to do their an audit for one of their clients, and then you've got the client themselves. So you presumably you've got distinct processes for the two, two camps, if you will. It just that that does add a layer of complication that most firms don't have. I just wonder how do you, how do you best manage that?
Speaker 3:I think it's a real driver for positive communication and from the outset we're very straight talking and every communication that we have with the client, the end client, we're also involved in the accountant.
Speaker 2:So it comes back to we're trying to be very collaborative. It's a three-way we're all talking. So we're trying to be very collaborative. It's a three-way, we're all talking. So we're trying to show up the collaborativeness by having a conversation with everybody involved.
Speaker 1:So there's you involved, the client's involved, and the client firm of accountants is also involved. Yes, yeah, yeah, all right.
Speaker 3:Oh, go on. Sorry, vicky.
Speaker 2:Sometimes the accountant says I'm quite happy not to be involved.
Speaker 1:So leave you to it.
Speaker 2:But we say no, we want you to be involved.
Speaker 3:It's part of the trust relationship. The accountant has been very good and acknowledged what we do as a service, um, as a specialist audit service, um, so they're entrusting us with their client, so why wouldn't we involve them in all aspects of that communication?
Speaker 1:right, okay, okay, yeah, there's um, ultimately, how best to serve the business leader themselves, which is probably you and the accountancy firm collaborating in such a way that it works brilliantly for the, the person, the people who are ultimately paying your bill, I guess, yeah, right, cool. So, uh, there was the uh, the journey piece around day out. Client experience, processes, improve. That still got a few things to go. We've got deadlines working towards, so we talked about that and then we were into the space of oh, we've actually got two customers, we have got the accountant and we have got the client.
Speaker 1:So just wanted if we can just dive into that space a little bit deeper, because there's a complication there which most firms don't have. So that's where I'm going to start with another question, and then you can hopefully help help me unpack that. So, so we've got you audit audit specialist providing a service to accountancy firms who are that have got too many audits and can't deal with it, so they come to you for some extras, or they're a non-audit firm and they've got a client who needs to step into that audit space, or they've got an opportunity to win an audit client with you as a partner. I know that's how it works because obviously we work together. Um, how do you coordinate the communications between the firm and the business leadership and your team? So how does, how do you make that work brilliantly well when it works brilliantly well?
Speaker 2:I think, um, from the very start. So, um, like last week we went out russ and I went out and met a prospect client accountant, what we and obviously having various talks. When they actually say, yes, okay, we're going to trust you with one of our clients, at that point in time we will bring in Nathan, alice or Pida. So we're at very early doors. Once we have the engagement, we're bringing in one of the teams, so they start to get to know the team, um, and they'll obviously bring in the client at that point in time as well. Because you know, quite often up until that point we've not necessarily had introductions.
Speaker 2:We might have different stories roll differently, but in this case we haven't as of yet been introduced, but at that point in time it works quite well our guys, their guys and the client having a meeting of some sort. Whether it's on teams in person, it depends really, doesn't it? On what we're doing um, and from there it means that everyone can put a face to a name um, and we all know who we're dealing with.
Speaker 1:So very simple. Just tapping into your values again is get everyone in the same space so that you can work out how best to collaborate and make this work.
Speaker 3:And we can do that again because we've only got very senior members of staff. They're all five-plus years. Uh, post-qualified worked in audit departments. So when the questions they're asking the right questions, brilliant uh, so where's the?
Speaker 1:I just wonder where the um nervousness is, from either the client or the nervousness from the accountant. What is it that is there? You know their triggers, the things that they're really most concerned about.
Speaker 2:In terms of. I think accountants are generally very risk adverse, so I think if they think there's the slightest chance that we would be looking for the other services, that can be a problem. So I think, a lot of the time, as soon as they realise we aren't doing any of those services, it certainly puts us into a bit of a different light.
Speaker 1:Yeah, puts you into a different space.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:De-risks it for them, doesn't it, I guess?
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah.
Speaker 3:Once that's explained or if we need to explain it then they seem to be more relaxed. So, um, it starts to that. Trust starts to build very quickly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah so go on vicky what you're gonna add I was just gonna say, and quite often, once we start to, you know, the accountant uh trusts us. Because the client's already trusting the account, because that's where the relationship predominantly is. I think they then start to be more open to meeting us and having those chats, because if their accountant trusts them and they're working with them I presume because, you know, for those those reasons it helps. Um, I think let their guard down with this as well yeah, yeah, yeah, um, brilliant.
Speaker 1:So um in in the. So humanize the numbers. So we're talking about the humanity, we're talking about trust, how best to work with the team so that they implement better, because they're involved with the client from the start. So this the feeling I'm getting from you guys is that the team are involved as early in the relationship with the accountant and the business leadership team as soon as possible when it comes to the process improvement or client journey piece. You're involving them right at the front end so that they can feel a sense of responsibility and ownership, because it's their processes and systems and ways of working that they're building, rather than yours top down.
Speaker 1:Because this is, there's, an argument to say a criticism of the profession that most innovation is top down as opposed to bottom up. So it sounds as though you're embracing that. Let's get that working from everyone. Now I know you've got, uh, an offshore team as well. I just wondered what, what, and this may be a quick, short, two-word answer, but you know, do you? Do you uh, in what way? That's an open-ended question. In what way are you engaging with them to contribute to your processes and systems? What's what's happening in that space?
Speaker 2:I think it because of the type of work they're doing, they'll give feedback on it, but they're very much, if you, in a traditional practice, I would say, they're very much the trainees, they you know right, so they can give feedback, obviously, and the feedback is actually welcome. It might not change whatever's going on because there might be something else at play, but, um, I think we do. We do encourage feedback for sure. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:After every job they're given feedback and that is. That is two-way communication, so if there's any nuggets that they throw back out there, then that's certainly communicated back to back to us yeah, cool, cool, um, because it's interesting, I've just got um.
Speaker 1:We do do quite a bit of work in that. As you know, in that sort of gallop q12 engagement survey experience, we now got, uh, in excess of 50 different results, so we're starting to be able to make compare and contrasts between the way different firms work. Um, and we've just got a the highest score we've seen 87 out of 100 from a team that's predominantly working from home. Now, in 2025, um, and it's like wow. I brought this up with a couple of firms recently going how are they generating that level of engagement if they don't get together often enough? And so well, they probably get together in a meaningful way more often than firms who are actually in the same office together. So I'm curious what's your routine for connecting every day, every week? What are the processes that are at play to ensure that everyone's connected with what really matters? On a I'm trying not to put words in your mouth here what's the cadence of the communication, the cadence of reporting in your firm?
Speaker 3:So Nathan Alice Paida, they are in communications with them three, four times a day on various jobs that they're working through and giving that feedback both ways On a weekly basis. We have anything from sort of 20 minutes to three quarters of an hour. Check-in with the whole team. Every single member of the team is on that call. Check in with the whole team. Every single member of the team is on that call and we just play online games or pop quizzes or general knowledge quizzes, just to you know. Park, work for you know for half an hour and just have a bit of fun together, right, and just play online games.
Speaker 1:So we've got an audit team playing online games rather than investing those that time in chargeable work. Russ is that. Have I heard that right?
Speaker 3:if you put it like that. I'm not sure it's the right thing to do again.
Speaker 1:So essentially it absolutely yeah what's the payoff then for that? What's the payoff? How do you know that's actually playing out well for you and the team.
Speaker 3:I think prior to in the run up to Christmas we were having they were taking. We got three guys over in the Philippines who were taking it in turns to send us weekly words or weekly sentences in their Filipino language and we would then try and talk it back to them learn try and talk it back to them, learn it, talk it back to them and they would, in Strictly Come Dancing style, hold up a scorecard for us, right?
Speaker 3:But in the new year we thought we'd change it a little bit and start this online type of. We had a music quiz and I can't remember what this one oh, it was like a word wordle game type of anagram game this week, but I think it just relaxes everybody and just creates that collaborative environment again. Everybody was having a laugh and a joke, so it ticks the enjoyment box on our values. Yeah, and it just demonstrates that we are all senior people at Bird and Link, but we have got a sense of humour and we do want to take time out to have a bit of fun and a bit of team building.
Speaker 2:And get to know one another on a more personal level, rather than it all being… On a human level Vicky. Yes, yeah, yeah yeah yeah, nice.
Speaker 1:I think this often gets lost in firms around, particularly if they're driven around utilisation and chargeability and timesheets and so on. And I know there's two schools of camps as to whether that plays out well or it doesn't play out well. But we're not going to have that debate. But or and investing time with several people every day, or once a week or twice a week or whatever is you run the numbers? You've got a team of seven people and they're using half an hour, so that's three and a half hours. It's got to play out for the business in a positive way, hasn't it? In terms of ROI.
Speaker 1:But what you can't see is the fact that the team are better connected, feeling better together, probably more engaged, therefore willing to go the extra mile a little bit, even within the allocated hours, to drive the quality and speed of the work up. So there is potentially a payoff in that space is there? And then the other bit is there's just the human, what they call human capital. We are all in this together and it feeds. Do you see that? Can you measure that? What's your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:It's different. Can you see it? Yes, I think you can, because actually we were saying that some of the conversations, when we're all on the call, there's people that are louder in characters than others. I think the visual bit is that everybody is starting to talk because we're all, rather than it falling on us to not lead the meeting, but be the one that takes the meeting, so to speak. The guys are doing it, so they're you know they're taking responsibility for that meeting and making sure it's good fun. So you can see it. Do we measure it? Probably not.
Speaker 1:I think it's really hard to measure. I think it's, you know. I just think it'd be really tough to even work out how you would do that, you know, unless you take something like the Gallup Q12 survey and it shows your engagement score over time is improving, which is it's not an input measure, it's an output measure, but it's an indicator, isn't it? I just? And it's hard because you're relatively new as a business, you know, five years in, uh, you know, you know relatively small team. I just wonder if it plays out in terms of team loyalty, so therefore less likely to go elsewhere. Does it play out in terms of appealing to other people coming in? Uh, because they might look you slightly account a scans, if you just? Like? You know, we play these online games as a group together and we're always reinventing that and you know they're a bit weird, aren't they? Or does it play out well in terms of actually, yeah, there's something more than just playing through the work piece?
Speaker 1:Please forgive this brief interruption, but Vicky and Russ and I have just been talking about Gallup Q12, the engagement survey. If you want to build greater team engagement into the way you and your firm work, please check out the business breakthrough report. You'll find it in the show notes. Let's get back to Vicky and Russ now. So who's the most recent team member? Vicky?
Speaker 2:PIDA. So I'm now really curious as to what tempted him to get involved in working with you as a firm well, he spoke to russ and I, but actually we then set him up to speak with um, nathan and alice and they went and had a coffee across um, a local cafe place, and I think by him talking to them, because what he would perhaps talk to me and you about was very different to what he's spoke to Nathan and Alice about um and thankfully they're obviously very nice and it works out well.
Speaker 3:I think as well it was. He's a senior audit manager who's come from a mid-tier firm, so we weren't that interested in testing his technical knowledge because of where he'd come from. So for us it was about does he fit or will he fit in the team? Is he right for the business and how will he engage with the clients? And you know we were comfortable with him. And then, as Vicky said, we asked him to come back down again from Bristol and meet up with Nathan and Alice to hear it from them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, so it's building connections with the wider team before they've even got going. Because you're competing with lots of potential firms, aren't you? For every person you hire, and certainly in the audit space, I would argue that's getting tougher. Do you think that's the case, or do you think it's easing up?
Speaker 3:I think it still is tough.
Speaker 1:So how is that going to impact on your business? Do you think going forwards?
Speaker 2:I think we need to be very mindful of making sure we put capacity or have the capacity there when we're looking forward at growth. You were going to say something, Paul.
Speaker 1:No, no, I'm just waiting to see where that piece goes. So what you're saying is capacity before growth? Vicky, is that right? That is what we're saying, and I think yeah, absolutely Now, if you listen to this, we're all smiling because this is a conversation we repeatedly have on a biannual basis in terms of helping the business grow. I'm not sure it came through clearly at the beginning, but you've gone from zero to what's the run rate of the firm. Where do you think you'll finish at the end of this financial year?
Speaker 3:In terms of numbers, we'll be about 25% up on last year, right, okay?
Speaker 1:So 25% growth this year and the year before. Russ, what was that at?
Speaker 3:It was around about 60% 16 or 60?
Speaker 1:6-0. 6-0. All right, so the people listening to this need to appreciate that it's a relatively rapid growth rate. Yeah, and forecast for next year is another roughly 25 percent right, and that's what you're predicting, based on your existing pipeline and the work that you've booked already this year.
Speaker 3:All right, so we've got but in terms of just jumping back onto the resource bit, I think it's it puts extra pressure on us because we're working with firms of accountants. So we're all not only have we got to back ourselves to grow, but when we find a firm of accountants who have um a need for this external audit function, then you know we could pick up three or four clients from that firm. So we're heavily investing and continue to invest in staff all the time because that that capacity could get filled very quickly well, historically, that's been clearly the case, isn't it?
Speaker 1:it's so what? What triggers do you use to prompt the next recruit, whether it be in your offshoring team or in your, you know, home base team? What is it that um triggers that?
Speaker 2:I think we are actually chatting with the team. So when we sat down in january, we spoke with the team, asked where they felt they need. You know, we needed additional resource, um, and I don't think it's just, I think it's on a continual basis. We're always looking, thinking about where the next recruit is going to come from.
Speaker 2:And sorry, paul, you're gonna say, and with that in mind, we'd also um had our team do some stories, or um they were interviewed and so we're going to put that on social media, some of the snippets that they've said about this, you know, so we can try and get out there about the team mentality and ethos, yeah, and what we're doing, our values so tell me what.
Speaker 1:What would happen if, um, because of the way you're communicating externally these stories and you know your reputation's building, uh, locally and I know you've got clients all over the UK, haven't you If a brilliant CV lands on you into your inbox tomorrow of maybe a junior, semi-senior, senior guy and you go, well, let's have a chat with them and you really like them and you think, gosh, they're going to really fit with the team, but you're not yet recruiting. I'm curious as to how you'd respond to that.
Speaker 2:In a very positive manner. Okay.
Speaker 1:Are you saying you'd hire them just like that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I think it's also. They would need to meet the team.
Speaker 3:But I think you know, if everything fit is yeah of course, yeah, yeah, yes, I think I think we they would need to meet the team but I think you know if everything fits. Yeah, yeah, yes, I think I think we're both committed to that yes um, not at the cost of too much profitability, but we know that there's, that the model is working at the moment and the growth pattern that we've got is proving that yeah. So I think we would very much back ourselves that if that CV rocked up tomorrow, we would 99%.
Speaker 1:If they fitted in the team, we would get them in the office really quickly we talk to firms about always be recruiting, it's do what you can in order to get a flow of CVs, a flow of conversations, and when you see a good one is even though, okay, we've just hired someone and then another one shows up, you know, all of a sudden we're I've got to spend another 50 K, or another 70 K, or another 30 K on a salary. Yeah, but good people just don't come along very often, do they?
Speaker 2:No no. And it is important isn, isn't it, that we keep that flow going yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So what, um, where do you see as be is? There's two questions as we head into the last sort of 10 minutes of our discussion. One is where do you see the biggest opportunity for burden link going forward and the other is where's where do you think the key challenge is going forward that helps you maintain this 25%, 60%, another 25%, 30% growth that, whilst living these very rounded values, collaborate, enjoy, straight talking, better than yesterday piece. Where's the biggest opportunity lie, do you think?
Speaker 2:there you go I was gonna come out from a slightly different angle because I think you said where would be the biggest restraints, what would yeah, that's the other question.
Speaker 1:Where's the biggest challenge? Yeah, yeah, what's what would hold you back the most?
Speaker 2:I think um having the right people and recruitment would be the biggest thing that would hold us back in all honesty, which is an obvious one.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think there's huge opportunities for us and we've got a great team and we need to build on that team to maximise the potential that we've got over the next 18 months, I think.
Speaker 2:And we're going to a Countex this year, aren't we? So we're going to see you know, we haven't necessarily we're going to try and come at it from having the opportunity to have meetings and things like that. So I think that would be quite an opportunity and things like that. So I think that would be quite an opportunity and having the time to spend developing those conversations as well afterwards. I don't just mean at Accountex, but I mean afterwards and following up on those, whereas last year I think we did Accountex and then we were incredibly busy afterwards.
Speaker 1:And you don't follow it up quite as well as you should.
Speaker 3:No, we didn't. We were guilty of it for the reasons that Vicky's just said. But the real positive was that we were contacted by probably about 20 firms that we met wanted to work with us soon after Accountex. So we know that there's the demand for it. We just need to find the staff to resource it.
Speaker 1:To fuel it. Yeah, just need to find the staff to resource it, To fuel it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So just taking a more broader view, just because you're an audit specialist, what do you think the key issues or challenges are around audit generally in the UK, Because this is your space. I know I can go to other leaders of audit teams in a broader firm, but here I've got you know you folks are. Your whole livelihood depends on audit playing out. What should everybody be looking out for? What do you think needs an eye out on it all the time?
Speaker 3:The level of compliance is getting harder year on year and with that goes, I think, the fact that there's less and less people being trained in the audit arena, and that in itself, I think, think is going to pose a problem. Unless you you're training with a top, you know, top 50 or even the top 100 firm, I think the the future of auditors is quite difficult unless you are in those those very big firms who you know. You've got those big audit clients, um, and I, so I think that the this is why I think people are dropping out of the audit regime. Currently those are the firms that we're working with. They're giving up their audit registration and they've got nobody coming through the lower ranks to fill those roles. Because of the cost of compliance and the technical side of order. It is becoming a smaller pond to find those resources in, but I know they've just increased the audit threshold. There's still an awful lot of companies that need to be audited for many reasons.
Speaker 2:It's also what can be done about the reputation that audit has, because it doesn't exactly. When you talk about the different types of tax accountants, accountancy and audit most, there's a lot of people out there that, for whatever reason, don't like training in audit. It has a bit of a reputation and it's would be good to do something positive about that what do you think's needed?
Speaker 1:okay, what, what could should be done?
Speaker 2:that's a very good question. I'm not sure, um, there is that work-life balance, that, but I don't know you know how you actually would address that.
Speaker 3:It's a chicken and egg, isn't it? Because there is that work-life balance piece which you've spoken about. But then there's not enough people coming through the lower ranks to be trained in audit. So the reality is it's probably only going to get worse in those bigger firms. So the amount of pressure it's putting on those firms and those people who are in that odd environment is not particularly good looking, I would say yeah, it's almost as if there's a negative spiral there, isn't it?
Speaker 1:it's. You know the volume of work fewer people, greater compliance, therefore more work, more hours, less life, work balance. It's almost as if it could, you know, spiral out of um in a really negative way. But it's interesting. I was, um, I was at a friend's house at the weekend and I was.
Speaker 1:I had the great joy of seeing a lad I used to coach at rugby, uh, who's now 22 and has gone to work for a mid-tier firm, uh, gone into the audit team, absolutely loving it, absolutely. It's like what are you loving about? So I'm learning something new every day, and there was no, you know nothing but positives coming out of his mouth about the company, the firm he was working with. You know the work he was doing, the career pathway that they've got lined up ahead of him. I mean, don't get me wrong, he's a bright lad, but he's only 22. He's just come out of university, he's just starting out, but there's a lot of there's so much ceiling energy. What I find a bit weird. Maybe I had something to do with it. I don't imagine I did for a minute. But out of that Colts, because I used to manage a Colts team for a couple of years and there's about half a dozen of them who have gone into audit, which is a bit weird, isn't it? And so I've got a couple of guys up in Manchester, a guy in the Midlands and just you know, really enjoying their life, really enjoying their job, really enjoying the mates that they're working with. So those firms have done something in terms of that. You know, grow, grow your own. And I guess you're challenged by that because you know, small firm working at a relatively high level, you've not yet got to the place where you can grow your own and the scale of your business may not lend itself to that model.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a. Is there a PR piece to be done about? You know, audit as a career path, or is the question I think you're posing there, vicky, and maybe you know your fun, enjoyment element to your values that there's got to be a life work piece in this? I love the fact that you're capturing the stories of your team members so you can get that out and show people that there's perhaps a different way, um, which um makes them uh, want to join you. Uh, love that. So tell me of the various topics we've covered today. What, um, what one thing has made you think about something you could, should be doing as a firm that you know already, or re-emphasize the fact that you've got to, you know, double down on something because of the way this conversation's gone, what stood out as being of interest, value, importance to you and burn link I think, uh, for me, the client journey and the whole audit process.
Speaker 2:We need to double down and make sure that we are gaining efficiencies where possible on the process side and actually we are getting feedback from the clients across the board and just making sure that's all in for the time. It should be in April.
Speaker 3:Ross. Yeah, I think, talking the way we have, I think it's a realisation that we really need to press on with more recruitment, because I think the market is very strong at the moment and I think the number of auditors that are around there particularly with our model that we only want really audit managers to work within the business we really need to push on with that, to create that capacity or to continue on that capacity route.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I do wonder if you know, very few firms have got what you've got. If you've got a fast growth curve, like you have, you know, 25%, 60%, another 25, 30 or more, depending on how well you know the first half of the year goes, you're creating a picture, aren't you, that actually, if you come in, this firm's going places because of the growth curve. So there's a part of the pitch there which maybe you would have been historically less comfortable with. But because you've had three or four years of relatively high growth compared to the vast majority firms in the UK, there's a there's, there's a piece of the painting that is this is something worth this considering from a career perspective. Then there's the enjoyment piece. So come and play online games.
Speaker 1:I'm not sure you want to put that in the pitch, but it is part of the mix, isn't it? Um? I think, uh, yeah, it, it, um, it. It stands out for me as well.
Speaker 1:Russ, actually, you know, we it's clear to everyone listen to this. We work together, um, and I think I need to be perhaps a little bit pushier, if that's possible, in the uh capacity before growth space, which is a common discussion, isn't it in our meetings? But I love the fact that you know, what stood out for me today is we've not talked about in our meetings the values for a while and just to revisit the fact that you've, from the get-go, have made that a cornerstone of everything you do in the firm. On one level level gives me a bit of a proud dad moment. That actually it's, it is real. But on another level, clearly it's working for nathan, it's working for alice and, um, hopefully for, you know, your newer team members, um. So it just reminds me to say thank you very much for you taking time out of your busy diaries and joining us on the humanize the numbers pod. Thank you very much, thank you, thank you, thanks, paul.
Speaker 1:Thanks very much vicky russ and I have just been discussing a variety of subjects, values and how to bring them alive in your business. Team engagement and how do you have a profound impact around process improvement and the client experience. These are all topics that we cover off in the Accountants Growth Academy. If you want to join like-minded, ambitious accountants, why not check out the Accountants Growth Academy? In the show notes, you'll find more valuable discussions with the leaders of ambitious accounting firms at humanizethenumbersonline. With the leaders of ambitious accounting firms at humanizethenumbersonline, you can also sign up to be notified each time a new podcast is made available. You're about to hear a short excerpt from a podcast discussion with Jen and Richard from the firm Creston Reeves. If you like what you hear and you want to go to the full podcast, go to your favourite podcast platform iTunes, spotify or others or go to humanizethenumbersonline.
Speaker 4:We have a thing called Touchpoint Calendar that's got to assist people. It's got some key times in the year, whatever the client cycle is, when you should be having a conversation with the clients and we've broadly driven out agendas that sit behind each of those touch point dates and that's just to help people go okay and we get into pick the class they think they should be rolling that through to make sure they do that at those key points, whatever they are in the year.