Brain Chatter

Communication: Everybody’s Friend and Foe

• Derek Conrad Brown/ Deborah Boswell • Episode 13

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Deborah Boswell, communication consultant, coach, and author, examines the practical side of effective communication in the workplace. Ask your peers and direct reports, 'do we do a good job with communication here?' How do they respond? Are you surprised? Ineffective communication costs organizations big money while it also costs trust in leadership. What's the fix? How many moving parts are there to just one sentence communicated from one person to another? How can we each do what we can to communicate better? And what does Deborah advise about the new 'great debate' about cameras-off vs cameras-on in virtual meetings and why?

EPISODE RESOURCES:

Brain Chatter, a podcast where we listen past the daily noise and explore topics at the intersection of leadership, workplace culture, profit, and sustainability.

SPEAKER_01:

It doesn't matter how wonderful your product is, how awesome the services that you deliver, how smart the people are in your company. If communication is not the glue that brings it all together, then employees feel like they're not being heard. They feel like they don't trust leadership. They don't know how to move forward. They don't know the company plan. So over-communicating and being a good listener. I believe these are two steps that would help build trust around communication.

SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to Brain Chatter. Join us as we explore real-life examples of leaders who listen past the daily noise, lead themselves and others with clarity, and make an effective difference on the front lines of leadership and work. I'm your host, Derek Brown. Today's episode is Communication, Everybody's Friend and Foe, and our guest is Deborah Boswell. She is a communication consultant, trainer, and coach in her own consulting firm specializing in helping corporate executives, managers, and technical experts communicate their expertise in a clear, confident, and professional manner. Her early career was as a clinical speech pathologist, and she is the author of the book, Become a Confident Business Communicator. Deborah, welcome to Brain Chatter.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you, Derek. I'm excited about the opportunity.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, thank you so much. To see episode notes and to access links to any of the resources mentioned in this episode, including information on Debra's book and links to her website and video library, visit brainchatterpodcast.com. Debra, let me start by asking, should I be intimidated that I am now communicating with a communication expert?

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely not, Derek. It's funny. I have friends that say that as well. And I always comment, unless you've hired me or you've requested some feedback, I'm not going to give any feedback because as long as you're communicating and your message is being received, we are good. So do not worry.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, we'll see about the worry. Okay, before we get to some questions on some of the more traditional challenges of communication, Let me ask you about a very hot topic related to communication currently. During the COVID pandemic, many people are being asked to communicate through online meetings, the Zooms, the Microsoft Teams, GoToMeeting, and other platforms. We could do a whole podcast just on this, I'm sure. As far as everyday mistakes, what are the most common communication mistakes people are making in online meetings, and how can they avoid those?

SPEAKER_01:

That's a great question and very pertinent for what we're all dealing with right now as an alternative to face-to-face in-person meetings, Derek. I think probably one of the first issues or concerns about virtual interaction is poor voice quality. A lot of people are using the microphone that comes with their laptop or their computer system, and it's very poor quality for the most part. Many times clients that I'm working with virtually are using wireless internet. So that's another mistake. The two go hand in hand because many times the voice cuts in and out because of poor internet service. So those are both related. I recommend that my clients get some kind of external microphone that connects with your computer system. I personally use a Snowball microphone and it's done a great job for me. I also have a hardwire connection to the internet in my office. Another area would be poor lighting. I see a lot of people speaking with their back to a window. So you have... light streaming in the window providing backlighting, and it's hard to see the person's face. Many times they might have shadows where you can't see where their eyes are because of the backlighting. So lighting is really important. I purchased a ring light pretty quickly after COVID started and realized we were all going to be working remotely. So the light ring is not expensive. The one I purchased sits on a tripod. And it has three different color settings, which is kind of nice. It has a peach color, a blue and a fluorescent white that I don't think looks good on anyone. But that light you would set up behind your screen. And so it's a soft light illuminating your face. That and then the last would be the backgrounds. I've seen some really odd backgrounds that people are using. I suppose they get from Zoom or Teams messages. Teams or WebEx, I suppose, all of them may have standard canned backgrounds that you can utilize. I know a lot of people use green screens and most of us don't have a green screen. Public speakers do. So that provides a nice background. But otherwise, what I've noticed is some of the backgrounds people choose pixelate. That's the only word I know to use. It's like the outline of the person becomes indistinct and then it'll come back and it'll be strong outline and it They're very odd. So if at all possible, I encourage people to set up a natural background in your environment, wherever you are positioning yourself in your home or office. Take some time and invest in your background. Make it a good one that reflects well on you and gives you credibility when you're speaking.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, let's talk about the real life background. They may be in a one room studio apartment or whatever the case may be and have a limit on what can or can't be in their background. Do you have any advice about does it matter if you're in a work meeting and the person's in their kitchen or they're in a bedroom as to what's behind them?

SPEAKER_01:

That's a great question. And I think it goes hand in hand with whether we want the cameras on or off. So let me start there because all of this is pertinent only, primarily if cameras are on. I highly suggest that everyone, everyone and anyone in corporate America who is interacting virtually with other human beings, I encourage you to turn the camera on and ask that your employees, your team, your colleagues, your peers, your customers turn whoever you're interacting with, request that they turn their cameras on as well. I think we started off on the wrong foot because a lot of people were thrilled to be home working, number one, which I understand that. Number two, at the outset of COVID, people were not using cameras. No makeup, bedhead, baseball cap, it all worked. But what I think happened is we started to understand we need more context. It's so easy to misunderstand someone when it's voice only. And, you know, another thing is hard to keep people's attention with voice only. And I'm understanding a lot of companies are now requesting, let's turn our cameras on. Let's purchase cameras for employees that don't have them because it gives us another layer of context for communication. I also think it provides some accountability. We don't really know when we are leading a meeting and doing most of the talking. You really don't know if people are engaged or not. And we are easily distracted. There is so much to distract us, especially when someone can't see us. And so you can be doing two or three things and not really... invested in the phone meeting that you're having with a group and also back channel communication. I'm aware of situations where people are texting each other during a meeting, making comments about the speaker or maybe comments that they don't agree with what's being discussed. Those are topics that need to be brought to the forefront. And if I can see you, you're less likely to be looking down texting. You can still do it because I've seen people do it and do it very discreetly. But with cameras on, you are more likely to have people attending to what's being said in the meeting. And so backgrounds with cameras on, they do matter. You can't help it if you have only a bedroom to work from. But I don't, I really don't believe any of us are going to hold someone accountable for a background that's not just perfect. I would spend some time, make it look as good as you can. Avoid having a ceiling fan above your head. I interacted with someone once and it looked like they had a helicopter head. Maybe they want to change the angle so that we can't see the fan buzzing around animals in the room. I had a situation where a woman's cat clawed her leg right in the middle of our interaction and she screamed and it fell over, you know, kind of backwards when that happened. And it was funny. I think if we can laugh at ourselves, we can, others will handle it better. Now, if we end up doing virtual work long term. And I do believe virtual interaction will always be in the mix moving forward. We've proven that we can do this. As we use it more and more, I would expect that we all are going to have higher expectations. And so that background needs to look good. You get back to your office and you're doing some virtual work, make sure you have a nice backdrop for your video.

SPEAKER_00:

As you know, our firm, Ken Chapman& Associates Incorporated, works with organizations on a myriad of issues. All these issues have to do or can have to do with having an impact on an organization's success. Of course, that ranges from organizational culture, leadership, turnover, safety, and many others. But one consistent piece of feedback that seems to be universal to almost every single client location, no matter what their unique situation is, the people there say that communication at this place needs significant improvement. What are your thoughts on why nearly everyone believes that wherever they work should do a much better job with organizational communication?

SPEAKER_01:

I believe communication is a common complaint because it's so hard to get it right. Many times we communicate information and it's misunderstood. I can't control how you receive information that I share through company email, in a company meeting where I'm standing in front of the room. Once it leaves our mouth, leaves our computer, I don't have a lot of control on how you interpret that information. Many times in an organization with a number of employees, there's misunderstanding. So misunderstanding is passed around from person to person. There was never any clarification. Someone just assumed that their understanding of the message was correct, and then that gets spread around. The other is, I think, lack of communication or not communicating change creates mistrust and distrust in leadership in the company. Listening is another issue with communication. It may be when When individual employees complain about communication around here and how horrible it is, it may mean we aren't heard. Our leadership doesn't listen. My manager doesn't hear what I have to say. Just those few items right there create confusion. Communication is very complicated. And a lot of us just take it for granted. Instead of asking for clarification, going back and summarizing what I heard you say, and then there's not enough of it coming down from the top. I guess you could over-communicate to some extent, but I believe we should all err on the side of over-communicating instead of under-communicating. It doesn't matter how wonderful your product is, how awesome the services that you deliver, how smart the people are in your company. If communication is not the glue that brings it all together, then employees feel like they're not being heard. They feel like they don't trust leadership. They don't know how to move forward. They don't know the company plan. So over-communicating and being a good listener. I believe these are two steps that would help build trust around communication and provide communication training. Develop employees in terms of how they communicate verbally and written. Because it's a difficult skill, and I don't believe that any of us ever conquer it. There's always the wild card of how the listener interprets what I say.

SPEAKER_00:

To change gears a little bit, in a civic organization I'm in, more than once I've heard someone tell the executive director that some piece of information should have been in the weekly email blast or the weekly newsletter. And in each case, I knew that it had been in the email blast in one or more weeks prior. How do you handle communication situations where specific info is shared, but in a way that's not consumed on the other side, and then the other side claims they were left in the dark?

SPEAKER_01:

I see this even in my own communication with others, and occasionally I'm the culprit as well. We are just strung out, busy, in a hurry, distracted people. And then think about how many ways people are communicating with us, from texting to LinkedIn to Twitter to email, Facebook, Instagram. There are so many ways. Almost every one of those have a messaging component. So much information is coming at us that we scan. The issue is really with the receiver, not taking the time to read in detail, verbatim, what is being said entirely before they respond or before they assume, well, I've gotten that message about our meeting next week. Something we can do, on the sender side, so the one sending the information, is make the information stand out. Maybe highlight key points in yellow or bold or italic, the most important information. I also believe be brief. Be concise. People do not have time to read a three paragraph document. It looks like a Word document. And indeed, it's really an email. Email was designed for lean communication. I try to be as brief as possible, bullet information when I can. And if it's a piece of information that's very important, separate it out. Your subject line needs to be a little bit provocative. If it's about an upcoming meeting for a civic organization, think of a way to market that in the way that you put out the information. and then make certain you're highlighting key points. Other than that, there's not a whole lot you can do to make sure the other side is reading the information.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, in that particular situation, of course, obviously, the person should look in the mirror first and evaluate all those things that you just said. If they feel like they are doing all those things, keeping it concise in the way that you just outlined, what do you say to that other person? Do you say, well, if you read your email, you would know it? Or do you just let it go and just do your best going forward? How do you handle a person who has sort of put you in that situation?

SPEAKER_01:

That is a good question. If you're a detailed person, a person that is typically well-prepared, it's irritating when people, and sometimes it's the same people over and over, and sometimes it's different. But when someone insists that you left out information and it was there, I'm very much a competitor. And my reaction is to want to say, Well, if you go back and check the email, I did include it. But that is rude, and that will cause ill will from the person who missed the information. I do believe that it's okay to say, you know, the information was in the email. Maybe you overlooked it. Here's what it said. I think you do need to create some accountability. It's just you have to be very careful in the way that you call it to their attention. I've done this before. I've had a situation where someone questioned whether I included information. When I got back to my office, I checked it and then responded and said, thankfully, below, I did include the information. I apologize that it wasn't clear. So I take some ownership, but I do let them know that it was in the information. I'm sorry it was overlooked. What could I do differently next time to make sure that you get all the information you need? And let's see what they say.

SPEAKER_00:

Not long ago, I saw a meme that a friend shared on social media. In it, a woman calls and tells her husband, when you stop by the store, get a stick of butter, and if they have apples, get a dozen. The husband returns with no apples and a dozen sticks of butter, because, after all, they did have apples. We have all had major communication misfires before. In this silly example, who was at fault and how could it have been avoided?

SPEAKER_01:

That's funny. And it's a great example of miscommunication. All of us should take ownership of miscommunication. I think communication is between two people at the very least or more. And if you are the giver of the information and there's a miscommunication, my first thought is, Where did I go wrong? What could I have done differently? And I've even asked people before, what could I have done differently so that this would have been clearer? Help me understand where this broke down. In this situation, maybe the wife thinks she's a great communicator. Husband comes home with the wrong item and she's thinking, you don't listen. I bet that's what happened. You don't listen to me. Well, he could have on the front end said, hey, let me clarify this. What are you saying? Are you saying if they... Have apples to get a dozen apples? Or are you saying if they have apples, get a dozen sticks of butter? I'm confused. And so taking time to clarify her meaning, because that is a very confusing statement. But if the listener, the husband, doesn't clarify, she's going to assume she's an awesome communicator. She doesn't find out that she's a poor communicator until hubby comes home with the wrong items. And that's when the repair should happen. And that's where a true... communicator, someone who cares about investing in communication is going to say, wait a minute, what happened here? What could I have done differently so that this doesn't happen in the future? And hopefully the husband would have given her feedback. Well, you stated it in a very odd way, honey. If you said straight out what you needed up front, that would have been clearer and I wouldn't have come home with the wrong item. was confusing. And I probably should have said something to begin with, but he didn't do that. And so you see, we're both responsible. It's really rough to blame one person to say you were fully responsible for this miscommunication. But that's why I tell people in terms of communication success is really based on the listener. The listener is the one who knows I don't get it or I do get it. And this is the way I hear you saying it. And so when We all assume we're great communicators until the listener tells us otherwise. And the listener is the one who really is in control of clear communication.

SPEAKER_00:

So that leads directly into my next question. It might be possible to think that communication is singly one thing, such as in the butter example, that one thing is just simply two people exchanging obvious words, at least words obvious to them in the moment. But how far off would assuming that communication is a simple exchange of only one thing at a time be from the truth? How many moving parts would you estimate that there are to just one effective example of two people effectively communicating with one another?

SPEAKER_01:

That is a wide open question, Derek. Think about it. Let's just take away the external part. issues between the two of us communicating, whether we're communicating via phone, you know, are we present in person? Is this via email? Is there noise in the background? Are we distracted because of people talking to us while we're interacting? Let's just take all that off the table and simply talk about physiologically. What does it take to communicate for me to actually speak words and then for you to receive those words? There are so many systems in our body. Our If you think about it in my background in speech pathology is what gives me the background for the answer to the question, but just to speak in terms of the physical components needed to put sound out of our mouths to create voicing. There are 100 muscles that are utilized for speech. That's a lot of muscle work in coordination. Wow. Think about that. 100 muscles that are required to create speech.

UNKNOWN:

Wow.

SPEAKER_01:

And we're not even talking really about the airflow system, the aerodynamics of speech. And then on top of that, think about the person receiving the information. How many lobes in our brain do we have that are responsible for helping us hear the information, process the information? And then put speech back out that goes with the question that was asked. We have the frontal lobe, the parietal lobe, the temporal lobe, the occipital lobe. A lot of neurons are firing back and forth in our brains. And so when you think about it, communication is a miracle that it ever occurs and that it occurs successfully. And then we think about listening. Not only we have parts of the brain that are responsible for processing what we hear, but then we have the whole component of our ear and how sound waves hit the eardrum and go into the acoustic nerve. So it's an amazing technology. electrical, mechanical process. And that's before we ever misunderstand the words that are spoken. And so there are layers if you think about it. And when you successfully communicate with someone, it is a beautiful, beautiful picture of the way we were designed to communicate with other human beings. Many, many moving parts.

SPEAKER_00:

That really is wildly fascinating to consider. Would you describe to someone what very highly skilled, effective communication looks like and sounds like? How do you describe that?

SPEAKER_01:

It emanates from someone who looks confident, someone who seems to be organized and in control of themselves, someone who's demonstrating empathy, someone who's approachable. And then when we think about the actual communication, the person communicates concisely, They communicate the information with strong wording. That is exactly what the listener needs because they've thought about their audience, they've gathered their thoughts, and they've organized their response such that that listener can receive it. Think about the difference in a subject matter expert, let's say in engineering, speaking to another SME, subject matter expert in engineering. He can make lots of assumptions about knowledge and information. He can think about the audience member who's listening is another engineer, so he's going to be interested in details. But let's say that SME engineer is talking to the CEO of the company who's not an engineer. If he's well thought out, he knows the CEO more than likely does not want details. Once the bluff method, bottom line up front, give me the information right out of the chute and then let me ask questions. And then when you explain it to me, don't use your SME talk. Use words that I understand. So I think the last component for a high level communicator is they have a good vocabulary, one that can be adjusted for their audience. Yeah, a lot of components that go into strong, high level communication skills.

SPEAKER_00:

Can you say a little bit more about listening skills from the receiver, as you said earlier?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. Listening skills are very important, and we listen very poorly these days, and I do believe it's because of so many distractions. Mindfulness has become very important. It's in the forefront. You hear mindfulness activities. I even have been in training classes where they do a mindfulness activity at the beginning to get people focused. And I believe we're focused on mindfulness, which is being fully present wherever we are, being fully present and engaged. And that's because we are all so distracted with so many different ways of communicating with others, so much information coming to us. that we've lost our ability to truly focus when we tell someone else, yes, sure, I have time to listen. Yes, I'll take this phone call. I'm happy to talk with you. But at that point, That's when we need to put on our listening skills. And that's active listening is all about being focused, getting into the words that the speaker is sharing, removing distractions, putting the phone down. Listening is a key component. And as I said earlier in communication, I believe the listener has more responsibility to make sure the communication is successful. Maybe it's 51, 49, 51% the listener's responsibility for clear communication. Successful communication, the speaker, maybe about 49%. It's not a big, big difference between the two, but if one has the edge, I believe it's the listener.

SPEAKER_00:

I know that you're the mother of three boys who are now grown men. What were the most important communication traits you tried to instill in them as they were growing up?

SPEAKER_01:

That is an interesting question. In anticipation of that question, I reached out to all three of my boys. They are 31 years 29 and 25. I texted them and just said, what have you learned about communication for me over the years? And it was interesting to see their responses. Made me tear up, actually, to think that they had some really good responses. My youngest son said he taught me how to listen. And he said, you always listened to me growing up and didn't treat me like I was young and not worth listening to, but that that you gave me value by hearing what I was saying, that you seem to be truly engaged. And so I thought that that meant a lot to me, that my youngest son, because life was really busy by the time he came around, that he felt like I heard him and that he's used those same skills. One other trait that or communication skill I taught all three boys early on, they did not mention this, but was communication. When someone says, how are you? Don't just say, fine. Say, fine, I'm doing great. How are you? To ask another question. And I'll never forget being at the ballpark once and a gentleman found me and he said, you know what? Your youngest son, Zach, is a great communicator. And I said, well, what do you mean by that? And he said, well, we just had us a little conversation right here in the ballpark and he's only five years old. And so using those skills of, well, hello, Mr. Smith, I'm doing great. How are you doing? How's your son? And so then Mr. Smith gave him a response and they had this great conversation going on. And he told me, he said, that's really uncommon for kids these days. My middle son His response was that I made him aware of Southern accent. He said, your code switching when we were at home showed me the difference in what a Southern accent sounds like when someone's not paying attention and then how it would change when I was paying attention. Now, that may sound like an odd response, but I started my business at home. And so I would have professional And my boys knew to be quiet when mom was on the phone. If she answered this phone over here, she's on her business phone. But Will told me once, I could tell when you're on a business call because your speech changes. And you might think, well, is that being authentic? I believe it is. I can be very relaxed and sound very Southern. I have learned the different vowels that we change in Southern accent. And as a speaker, as a business person, I want to be as close to standard American English as I can. It's obvious I'm still Southern, but I know the vowels, the word endings to make sure I include and then avoiding the lilt. So those are some traits that he picked up on. And he actually used the word code switch because I talk about that. Code switching is changing maybe from a dialect that you use at home to standard English or as close as you can get to standard English at work. There's nothing wrong with that. We dress at home very differently than we dress at work. Does that make us inauthentic? I don't believe so. I believe it's putting our best self forward. So that was Will's response, my middle one. And then the oldest said that I taught him about being concise in reading and writing, that less is more. and how to know your audience. He said he learned early on that you got to know who you're speaking to. And he's in sales now. So he said, you know, he'll think about, am I talking to an engineer or am I talking to the owner of the company? And he knows that you change up the way, the information you share based on who you're talking to. So that was really enlightening for me to find out their thoughts. So I appreciate that question. It was a lot of fun to discover that information.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. And how fascinating that they all three focused on different topics and answering the same question. Tell me about the role that being a good storyteller plays in communication. And do you advise your clients to work on honing the skill of storytelling, even if they're in a very technical role, say an accounting role or an engineering role?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. Storytelling is very important. It's a very competitive skill for any kind of expert to have in their back pocket. And you mentioned even accounting and engineering, two areas that are pretty cut and dried, detailed, maybe to some other people, maybe not to the engineer or accountant, but even boring information. Yes. Learning to tell a story with the numbers, to connect data or in a way that it tells a story, maybe shooting for a certain outcome, is very important. Also, just storytelling as a way to begin a presentation, to begin a meeting, a way to grab people's attention. I remember sitting in church one Sunday and sitting at the end of a pew. And as the pastor had been preaching, I was just aware of heads down in the audience. But when he said, I want to tell you about a situation. I was in the airport the other day. Heads went up. And then I started watching and heads go up. People were thinking, I want to hear this story. We are all attracted to a good story. And maybe it comes from our early days sitting around a campfire, people telling stories about what happened to them or old fables or stories from their past. I think the biggest risk of telling a story is that it goes on too long. I've had clients hire me simply to practice their opening, which was a story, maybe about a customer experience or the way their product was used. And the story goes on too long, such that audience members may be thinking, when's this going to end? When's it going to get to the point? That's when the story has gone wild. It isn't fulfilling what you intended. And so the biggest issue around storytelling is number one, being creative. having a good use of vocal variety, and then making sure that you leave out all of the points of the story that are not germane or related to the main point of why you're telling the story.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, just two more questions, if I may. I would be willing to bet that most of us, including myself, do, just like you've said, believe we're better communicators than we are. So who are these people who walk into the door of your consulting firm and say, I need help becoming a better communicator. I recognize this. What epiphany moment or aha moment brings them to the point of asking for professional help from you?

SPEAKER_01:

Most of the time, I would say 75% of the time, it's based on feedback they've received. So maybe it's a performance evaluation. Maybe it's an interaction with their manager because for the third time they've interviewed for a position in their company and did not get the position. And finally, someone had the courage to give them the feedback around their communication skills. Someone in their environment at work had the courage and compassion and care for that individual as an to give them the feedback around communication skills. About 25% of the people that walk in my door come in because they realize I need help with my communication skills. I'm not getting through. I'm scared to present. I get nervous. I'm avoiding opportunities at work because I don't like to speak in front of others. But 75% of the time it comes from feedback about a blind spot around communication. And usually to better understand the communication gap or opportunity for development, I will ask the individual for feedback partners. That tells me, number one, they're willing to be vulnerable and let others know that they are working on a skill because that lets others know, hey, maybe I have a skill I need to work on. He's doing it. Maybe I should be doing it. And then it gives me a better picture of how this person is being perceived in terms of that communication skill that they feel they lack. or that someone has shared information about. So the aha moment sometimes comes through a difficult situation when maybe they're caught off guard and some people might even be upset. They're being perceived as a poor communicator or that they don't listen or that they're not approachable or that they have nonverbal communication that's off-putting and people don't enjoy working with them. That's hard feedback to hear. Other times it's that individual who realizes it's a gap that's holding them back. for whatever reason, and they believe it's time to address that communication gap.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, that makes a lot of sense. And so that leads me to my last question. What have I missed? Is there anything else you wish that we had talked about, but that we just didn't get to today?

SPEAKER_01:

I think one last comment I would like to make, so thank you for offering, Derek. For years, as a clinical speech pathologist, my passion was in the area of stuttering, and I still run a stuttering support group. We are not meeting right now because of COVID and have not done Zoom meetings, but we hope to pick those up soon. Let's don't forget that there are people in corporate America who struggle with communication because of disorders, speech disorders, or maybe some type of delay that they experience, just a slow process for communication. For some reason, the physiological system does not work like it should. So it could be stuttering. It could be someone with autism in the business world. It could be someone who has hearing impairment. It could be someone with a learning disability who struggles to write. Let's show some grace and let's see what we can do to be inclusive for these individuals. Thank you so much for joining us. People would understand if it goes external, we need someone to go back and review the email and catch errors. He was 50 years old or so, so improving that learning disability, I believe it was dyslexia, was going to be difficult, but that doesn't mean he can't do his job. He just needed some compensation or compensatory strategies for getting information out via email. That was his struggle. For someone who stutters, stuttering is not a speech disorder that we can cure. So let's understand how to work with a person who stutters instead of letting them go or not promoting them or taking them off any kind of verbal communication. Let's find ways to facilitate what they do know and the way they can communicate and support them. and make them feel valued because that's going to build their confidence, which in turn may reduce some of the stuttering symptoms. So I'm just big on inclusiveness, including people with speech differences that can't be repaired easily or brought to typical development easily. Thank you for letting me say that, Derek. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. And what a kind way to wrap up the podcast with those thoughts from you. So thank you for that. Thank you for your time on the podcast in general. For the convenience of those listening, we will post a link to your bio, to your LinkedIn account, to your website, where they can find example videos that go into greater detail on some of the things we've discussed today, as well as an array of other relevant topics. Also, if they follow you on LinkedIn, I know you share a lot of that information. Your account is a Thank

SPEAKER_01:

you very much, Derek. This was a lot of fun and I would love to do it again. So thank you so much for including me.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I will take you up on that. We look forward to having you at some point in the future. Links will all be available in the episode notes at brainchatterpodcast.com. Brain Chatter is a production of Ken Chapman and Associates Incorporated. We assist clients across North America and beyond with leadership development, corporate culture transformation initiatives, behavior-based professional development for health and safety issues, individual and team assessments, conflict and performance management, succession planning, and team building, making a difference in organizations and individuals' lives for almost 40 years. Learn more at leaderscode.com.