52. Trevor McLaughlin ︱Founder at networkfx on Unraveling the Complexities of Wireless Industry and Private Networks

What could be more intriguing than a sneak peek into the world of wireless technology through the lens of an industry pro? Brace yourselves for an exciting episode as we sit down with our prominent guest, Trevor McLaughlin, a wireless technology expert with a remarkable three-decade-long career. Our conversation draws you into Trevor's unique professional journey, from his humble beginnings at a mall kiosk to commanding key roles at giants like T-Mobile, Ericsson, and Samsung.

Trevor shares interesting anecdotes from his career, underlining examples of cultural differences and values that can significantly influence an employee's experience. We also dissect the industry's stumbling blocks, like spectrum investment, return on investment, and the formidable resistance to change the status quo. One highlight is Trevor's breakdown on simplifying the complexity of the wireless industry, a must-listen for those looking to navigate this field, especially in the realm of private networks.

Stay tuned till the end for Trevor's refreshing perspective on the current state of private networks, 5G, the buzz around 6G, and the invitation for conferences to start addressing real issues instead of only promoting the marketing pitch and message. Join us for this enlightening discussion, and we promise you'll come away with a richer understanding of the wireless technology world. Whether you're an industry professional or just curious about wireless technology, this episode will deliver a wealth of insights. Get ready for a fascinating ride into the wireless universe!

Resources:
Trevor's LinkedIn Profile
Next Industry Event
networkfx: https://networkfx.io/
Trevor's cell number: 253-266-9981

8 EIGHT SLEEP
Save $200 on 8Sleep and get better quality and deeper sleep with automatic temperature adjustment

LEORÊVER COMPRESSION AND ACTIVEWEAR
Get 10% off Loerêver Balanced Compression and Activewear to elevate your confidence and performance

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

This content is also available in a video version on YouTube.

If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with someone who may enjoy it as well, and consider leaving a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. You can also submit your feedback directly on my website.

Follow @GrandSlamJourney on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and join the LinkedIn community.

Transcript

Trevor: 0:00

The advice I would say is is figure out what you truly need. What are you trying to solve for? And then go find somebody who actually cares. Good luck with that, but that's what I would say go find somebody who actually cares about solving the problem and isn't trying to solve their problem.

Klara: 0:30

Hello, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to Grand Slam Journey podcast, where we discuss the Grand Slam Journey of our athletic endeavors, life, business and technology. My guest today is Trevor McLaughlin, who has been mastering his skills in the realm of wireless technology for almost 30 years. Trevor is also my partner. He currently works at Meta and is also the Founder at networkfx. When we moved to Austin, he thought he would start a wireless meetup community where he can gather people interested in wireless and discuss and debate ideas, solutions, learnings and failures, to learn from one another and help solve the problems each of us might be facing in the realm of wireless technology.

Klara: 1:33

Please note that opinions discussed in this podcast are of our own and shall not be attributed to our employers, apple and Metta. If you enjoyed this conversation, I want to ask you to please share it with someone you believe may enjoy it as well. Consider leaving a review on Apple Podcast and Spotify, and don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss the next episode. This was my first podcast recorded in person, and so I apologize if you heard Echo during some parts of the conversation. My mics haven't been completely tuned up for in-person podcasting just yet. I'm still working on it. Thank you for tuning in, and now I bring you Trevor McLaughlin. Are you ready?

Trevor: 2:23

Probably doesn't like that.

Klara: 2:26

What as podcasting?

Trevor: 2:28

No, the word.

Klara: 2:30

Oh, okay, but shall we start? Hi Trevor, welcome to Grantsland Journey Podcast. How are you?

Trevor: 2:40

Super. How are you?

Klara: 2:42

Doing great. Happy Monday.

Trevor: 2:46

Monday it is.

Klara: 2:47

Are you excited for the Mobile Wood Congress this week?

Trevor: 2:52

Sort of. It'll be interesting. Hopefully We'll see.

Klara: 2:58

I hear you're fully booked.

Trevor: 3:00

Booked up? Yeah, yeah, booked up. You can hear the puppy slapping water.

Klara: 3:15

Okay, I'm going to edit this one out.

Trevor: 3:17

Nope, can't edit. This is going to be Claire's first non-edited podcast.

Klara: 3:25

I don't think so.

Trevor: 3:26

Yeah, that was the rules.

Klara: 3:30

Well, I'll see. Anyways, before we dive into all things wireless, please introduce yourself to the listeners.

Trevor: 3:43

I hate introductions, so my name is Trevor McLaughlin. I would be Claire's boyfriend, allie's dad, allie's my dog Actually, I guess it's Claire and I's dog and pontificator of all things wireless.

Klara: 4:06

I like it Good intro.

Trevor: 4:08

That's all I got.

Klara: 4:11

And so I typically am curious about people's upbringing and how their journey led them to the passion that they have, specifically in technology and wireless. So how is your upbringing and how do you think it shaped your passion for technology and wireless?

Trevor: 4:34

Upringing had nothing to do with it. Also, as a side note, I played very little sports, so this is an oddity for your podcast. The sports I did play I was horrible at, which is why I don't play sports, so sports had nothing to do with it for sure. Yeah, nothing led me here Other than a whole bunch of years ago. I was looking for a job because I was poor, unemployed, had a very young kid and needed to make money and I saw this job for wireless cells so I applied for it, ended up being a job at a mall, in a kiosk, which is probably gotta be close to the shittiest job you could have in wireless. And it turns out I really liked wireless. So for the most part the rest of my working career has been in the wireless industry in one fashion or another.

Klara: 5:52

And, I think, your first job. If I remember correctly, you actually had a different job before, where you were selling alcohol in the stores, and this was a totally just a second journey. You posted about it on LinkedIn.

Trevor: 6:09

Actually it's the other way around. So I had a wireless job at the mall for about a year until the state of Washington came in and closed the business down. It was somebody else's business. I ran their Eastern Washington side of the business. They did something the state didn't like. The state said sorry, you're no longer operating. So that job went away Shortly. Thereafter moved over to US Cellular, which is, I think, the number five or six carrier in the US at this point, and worked for them for a while Don't remember the timeline Sold a really weird product, basically a cell phone that's supposed to mimic a landline cordless phone, for I guess Backwood's Yakamaw Pable that don't understand cell phones.

Trevor: 7:10

So when you pick it up you actually would have a dial tone in your ear which doesn't exist, naturally, on a cell phone. And then I don't remember what happened with that particular job. There might have been another job in between US Cellular and the beer distribution company, but I did end up going to work for a beer distributor in Yakamaw as a new beer distributor came in, took over the business there and actually loved that job. That was a great job. It was fun.

Trevor: 7:45

Actually there was a lot of good parts about that job. That looking back and thinking about it right at the moment is one of the things that I like about wireless when you're working on a good wireless project and that is, you can put in 12, 14, 16 hours a day in the job and you can actually see the benefits and the rewards from the time. And since I mostly spend time working, most of it's working then I don't have to figure out what to do with the rest of my time when I'm not working. So I like that part also. But, yeah, worked at a beer distributor.

Trevor: 8:31

That job, although I loved it, only lasted about three months, started as the lowest possible person and by the time I left I had the top cells positioned in the company In Yakamaw, of course. So take it with a grain of salt. But I did work my way up to the top cells positioned in the company but had an opportunity to go back into wireless Wireless, paid about three times more than beer distribution. The beer distribution business didn't want to give me a raise which may be a recurring theme in this podcast, who knows and so I left and my beer distribution days were over, unfortunately.

Klara: 9:17

I've talked to many people in wireless throughout my 15-year career and have met many people in wireless, but I have to say I don't think I had met anyone who's as passionate about the industry as you are and probably also disciplined in reading all of the news and keeping up with it as you are. And so one thing is actually really hard for me to judge my level of enthusiasm, because yours is always so much higher. What really interests you about it? What makes you want to go so deep and wide about the industry at the same time?

Trevor: 10:01

Well, I don't know where else I would make a living, so I have to at least have some kind of knowledge in the industry. I'm going to try to collect a paycheck. I think the biggest driver probably is. I like to argue, and the more you know and the more you remember about what you know about every possible topic, the more you can argue based on actual information. Now I also like to argue about made-up information and I'll engage in that as well. But if you're going to have a serious conversation and a serious argument, having some information at your fingertips is useful. So I think it's more my commitment to arguing with people than it is just keeping up on the industry.

Klara: 11:02

Interesting.

Trevor: 11:03

Yeah, I think it fits my personality.

Klara: 11:06

Yeah, what do you like about arguing so much? Because that's another thing. We argue about anything and everything, and sometimes I'm frustrated that I argue the position you argued yesterday and you switch the position the next day, but you really find it so fun and entertaining. What do you enjoy about it, and do you know how this argumentative nature came about? Have you always had that passion, ever since you were a kid?

Trevor: 11:42

No, you know, if I was going to psychoanalyze myself, I would say that as a very young child I had thoughts and ideas that seemed to disagree with my immediate surroundings. But I was actually a good kid. I listened, didn't complain a lot, did what I was told, until I was about eight or nine, somewhere around there, I sort of went off the rails, but until then I was actually a pretty decent kid. And then I think it took probably another 10 or 15 years to really get in the groove of argument and disagreement with people. But I think it's probably the zeros and ones. When I was a kid I was zero, and once I figured out that I didn't have to be a zero and I didn't have to worry about approval or maybe even acceptance by anybody else, then I could be a one, and the one in this case is argumentative and disagreeable.

Klara: 13:15

Yes, you are disagreeable. We often agree to disagree.

Trevor: 13:22

No, you might agree to disagree. You just disagree. I just disagree.

Klara: 13:29

Okay, and a couple more things to touch on regarding your character and personality is consistent and disciplined, that you put into things, and you do it at work, but also with, for example, workout, which you said you hate working out.

Trevor: 13:49

I do.

Klara: 13:50

But you work out still every day because you know it's good for you. But there's many people that I know that still know it's good for them, but they just don't work out. So, looking back, where do you think your consistency in discipline comes from? Because, again, even going my childhood, I feel like that's something that my athletic journey shaped a lot and I would think your is just another level than mine.

Trevor: 14:23

Well, I don't know if I see it quite the same as you, so I don't know that I'm as disciplined or I don't view myself probably as disciplined as maybe you view me. Consistent. My general outlook is consistent, so from that perspective I think that probably fits with my view. You know, even with discipline, you still pick what you're disciplined about. I mean, I'm not disciplined about shaving my head every three days, even though that's the ideal time to shave too much sooner. It drives me crazy because I hate shaving my head too much longer. It causes a problem which also makes me hate shaving my head, but for some reason three days I can't stick to, which seems like a very easy thing to figure out because I've been shaving my head for like 20 some years. So how hard could it be? Every three days Just shave your head? But no, can't figure that one out. So discipline is something that I mean. There may be a person that's perfectly disciplined in every single thing that they want to do in life, but my guess is they probably pick and choose what they're disciplined in as far as work. I mean, work is maybe two things.

Trevor: 15:52

One, I remember watching my dad as I grew up and he, I don't think necessarily worked long hours. He would work some overtime when he could, but they were usually like eight hour days. But his eight hour days were actually like 11 or 12 or 13 hour days because he had to drive from where we lived to where work was and back. Sometimes he would drive from where we lived early. I guess it would have been a Monday morning I don't know, I was a young kid but a Monday morning drive from Yakma up to Canada somewhere I don't even know where, and work and then stay up there and come back Later in life. When I was a teenager, he would travel over to Seattle every week and work and then travel back.

Trevor: 16:55

While I was in high school he actually worked two jobs, so he worked eight hours during the day and probably five or six hours at night, and a lot of that time I didn't really appreciate work. I didn't appreciate the idea. I think I was probably just irritated because we didn't have money. That's probably what the biggest thing was. But anyway, I watched him and I didn't really ever hear him complain about it.

Trevor: 17:27

I don't think he was necessarily happy a lot of the time, but I didn't hear him complain about it and I think it was just something that when you have a family, you have kids and you got bills, I mean you got to do it right, and so I think part of it came from him, from just the example. It's not like we ever had a conversation about it, so it just must have been from watching. The other part is it's probably unlike sport, that I didn't ever have in my life, or very little. There's nothing else that I really gravitated towards to try to master. So if you think about your journey with tennis, the whole journey was trying to master being the best you possibly could be. So I look at whatever my job is within the wireless ecosystem as how can I be the best at whatever that job is supposed to be?

Trevor: 18:39

So you've got to put in the time and the effort and meet your commitments and deadlines and have some pride in what actually gets produced. So that would be regarding work. As far as working out, I have no idea actually, but my closest guess would be that, considering I have lived with somebody who is I don't know if I'd say fanatical, but there's definitely some neurotic tendencies around working out. You're in me.

Trevor: 19:32

Yeah, that's right, it's not Allie, and I'm a little bit older. I figure I got to do something, otherwise At some point. One, you'll be able to beat me up, which would be embarrassing. And two, unless you're actually gonna gain like 30 or 40 extra pounds of muscle, which I don't think you want to do, I'm gonna have to still be able to walk and move and bend over and stuff.

Trevor: 20:12

So yeah, that's the closest thing I can come up with. I at least got to try to keep up with you. I mean it's impossible, but I would be worse at it and I'd be farther behind if I didn't at least try to work out.

Trevor: 20:29

You still have a load for me on all the steps, yeah no, I mean sure I have more raw power, possibly and probably, and that's to be expected. Actually, that's not true, I think. When we actually used to do CrossFit at a box, I think I probably beat you in a workout twice over, like a three or four year period, whatever it is that the time period was, we were going to a CrossFit box. So if you look at it from that perspective, it doesn't really matter if I can lift more in a raw number. You can outperform me in every single possible endeavor, so you win. And I could try to argue both sides of that one, but I'm not sure what the opposing would be, so you'll have to give me some time if we want to argue that one out.

Klara: 21:27

Okay well, maybe we can save it for later. But when everything I want to call out is your adaptability and always wanting to move and see other perspectives, I've never met anyone who enjoys moving as much as you do, and obviously you have moved a lot when you were a kid. You could also be a professional mover, because the process that you put together for moving is impressive. You kind of create a schedule and plan and I know I just follow. But what excites you about moving so much and the newness of starting in a new place? Because most people find it annoying and challenging, but not you.

Trevor: 22:14

No, it is annoying. It's annoying. It's a lot of hard work. I don't like spending money on moving, which makes it even harder work. I like putting stuff off as long as possible but still making the date of when you have to move, which can be a little bit stress inducing. But with all of that being said, I hate being in the same spot. I don't like the fact that everything looks the same. I don't like the fact that you see the same people. I just don't like sitting in the same spot Again.

Trevor: 22:59

If I was to psychoanalyze myself, this probably goes back to I moved a lot when I was a kid, Although I hated it even worse, I think, back then. But yeah, I never got comfortable really in a spot. Actually, it's not that I didn't get comfortable, I just never felt it's just a place right. So, like people that have a home that they grew up in their whole life and then they go back on holidays and their parents lived there for like 83 years and they have all these fond memories of a home just doesn't exist. So it's just a place to stay cool when you live in Austin in the summer, or stay warm when you're in New Jersey in the winter or stay dry when you're in a rainy area. It's just a place to live. I don't get attached to the place, Don't get attached to the people, so why not? Why not go places that you haven't been? See what you haven't seen? I don't know. No good answers.

Klara: 24:15

Well, it's fun once we go through the pain of moving, but then starting over is always fun and we find new people, new things to do. And it just seems like a fun new process and routine that we can create.

Trevor: 24:29

One of the benefits is, if you do it right, you don't collect crap. So it helps you get rid of useless stuff. So for a person who has an undiagnosed case of OCD, less stuff that is useless is better. So if you've got to pack it and move it and then unpack it and figure out where it's gonna go, it helps get rid of stuff. That's probably just time to let it go. It's time to go find a new home.

Klara: 25:05

Yeah, I feel like we've adjusted, finding the pieces of furniture or things that we really care about and move with us, but we don't go overboard with buying things that you don't really need. So it's a good practice. Yeah. I got it in my closet and shoes. All right, let's turn to wireless, then, and your current wireless. How many years in wireless have you been in the industry?

Trevor: 25:39

Great question. I would guess I started in wireless in 92 or 93, probably 93. I don't know though for sure 92, 93, 94 guaranteed somewhere in that window.

Klara: 26:01

So almost 30 years really.

Trevor: 26:02

Yeah, okay long time.

Klara: 26:05

If you look back, what would be one or two of the most fun jobs you've had, and why?

Trevor: 26:16

Probably the highlight would be an 18 month stint that I did at T-Mobile. We were in the process of deploying GPRS. It was gonna be the first nationwide packet-based data network in the US maybe the world and the plan was to launch the US all at one time, and so I think I liked it. One, because I traveled nonstop, which means I didn't have to sit at my house, which I hate doing. Two, I could see the progression of how things were improving as time went on and we were getting closer to the launch day. And three, we got to launch the first nationwide packet network. So that was good, that was fun. And I'll throw in number four, which is I mean, this was self-imposed, of course, but I got to work like 16 hours a day, which makes me happy. You like working, so yeah that would probably be number one.

Trevor: 27:42

What else would there be? I think most of my memories are fond of my time at Ericsson. Again, a lot of my time. There might have been longer than 16 hour days, but they were long days and I could usually see progress, which is always good, and I got to travel all the time, which means I wasn't stuck in one spot, which always helps. I had a huge amount of freedom in that role to sort of just do what I needed to do.

Trevor: 28:23

And for not being a very good people person and collaborator, maybe I was able to find a couple people both internally at Ericsson and externally with the customer who I still actually talk to and keep up with. I mean I don't keep up with anybody really well, but I mean some people in that that I talk to more often than I talk to my family. So there's that. I mean. If you're gauging, it seems like it's pretty good. I mean I think those would probably be the top two. If I had to pick a third outside thing. I don't know that it was the job per se, but my time.

Trevor: 29:16

I had some time at Samsung, where I was cleaning up a mess for somebody, so I got to travel back and forth. Again, travel, if you guys haven't figured out by now, that's a key theme travel back and forth between where did we live? Southern California and Kansas City, and the work itself sucked long hours, so that I mean that fits the MO as well. The work truly did suck, though, because it was just I didn't know what I was doing. I mean, I did, but I didn't. So I don't like that. I don't like not knowing what I'm doing or how to fix a problem, but it was fun from a perspective of working with a completely different group of people and a culture that I wasn't used to, and so it was probably a good experience for me just to learn how to interact with somebody that I probably wouldn't have normally interacted with and most definitely probably wouldn't have taken the time to actually understand past a superficial level, had I not done that for two or three months, or whatever the time period was that I was working on that.

Klara: 30:35

I feel like I really enjoyed the South Korean culture, though, or learning about it.

Trevor: 30:40

Yeah, no, it was.

Klara: 30:41

And I knew you got to know the people quite well and you would go out. Even when they would come visit Southern California, you would come meet with them. What did you enjoy about it, or what was some of the things that stood out to you about that experience the most?

Trevor: 31:02

Maybe it's that one, looking through my lens of a job, is just a job. Companies don't care about you, They'll pay you to do a job. I try to do the best job I can while I'm getting paid by that company, but when they're done with you, they're done with you, which is the way it should be. So, looking through that lens, at least with the group that I was working with, I think I was probably the only person at least I was the only person I saw in the whole building that worked more hours than they did, and they have a specific hierarchy as far as when people are supposed to come in, when people are supposed to leave.

Trevor: 31:56

And I didn't do it so that I would win or be there longer. I just did it because I had my four and a half days worth of time there. I had certain stuff I was trying to get done. It took a certain amount of time to do, so you just put the time in so they at least appreciated it. Again, taking it to the lens of it's just a company, but it was definitely a different level of appreciation than, I think, probably most other jobs where I've worked just as much. And the other thing, I think just that we worked so much together, I sort of just had to learn and understand how they worked, because I don't know if you know this about me or not, but I think things should work a certain way and when they don't, I get a little grumpy sometimes about the situation.

Trevor: 33:06

And I think what I saw in working with them is maybe that, even though things didn't work the way that I wanted them to and I didn't appreciate the fact that they didn't work the way that I wanted to because of the way that it works within the organization they probably had it way worse than I did even though mine was mostly self-inflicted, but I think the pressure that they had to make things work and fix things, it was probably way worse for them than it was for me, and I'm not good at empathizing and taking somebody else's point of view, but I think being sort of immersed in this space for the extended amount of time probably gave me the opportunity to experience something that I don't usually take the time or allow myself to experience.

Klara: 34:23

Interesting. Just a few comments, I think, on what you mentioned, what you're saying now. It really shows what I mentioned the consistency and discipline and your drive to be the best at the job and what you're trying to do. And you've never been an athlete, you've shared that. But I think that's an athlete's perspective. You're always trying to be the best at the sport or the things that you choose for yourself. So I actually do see that a lot as the athletic mindset and I've been in the corporate world for quite a while through different jobs and I think that's very rare for people to put in that amount of work that you do to excel and deliver the results that you want to deliver and you commit to.

Trevor: 35:16

Maybe I think it's just more the way that I am. I don't think it's anything special, I just think it's where I am. In fact, I think that's how it should work. This is a nitpicky thing on my side, being that I'm not an athlete and I can't hang my head on saying, well, this is an athlete's mindset. Sometimes I wonder if it's just a mindset and it's attached to whatever you use it for. But I will never know truly because I'm not an athlete. So maybe the athlete mindset is different and I just don't know, because I'm not an athlete.

Klara: 35:57

No, I think it's true. I see what you're saying is true, but I think great athletes need to have that mindset, but I think that mindset is also parallel or it applies to perhaps entrepreneurs or some other people like you that decide to adopt that mindset. So I think these things are characters and personalities, that traits that probably anyone could have, but I would argue not that many people have.

Trevor: 36:31

Okay, let's argue.

Klara: 36:33

Okay, I don't know if we have enough time, but another thing when I want to sum up is your ideal job. So what I'm hearing you described is a job where you can travel a lot, a job where you can work 14 and 16 hour days and solve problems, and a job where you can have some sort of autonomy and freedom on how you go around solving the problems and get things done to see progress.

Trevor: 37:09

And good coffee.

Klara: 37:11

Oh, coffee is important. Anything I didn't address.

Trevor: 37:16

And then pay, of course. Yeah, I got to get paid. But yeah, those are the highlights.

Klara: 37:25

And so through how do you wireless years or experience you worked at, you said, t-mobile US Cellar.

Trevor: 37:33

Yeah, I'll go through the progression. So the first job was actually I don't know the name of the company, but they were a dealer for Cellular One, so people that are old might remember that brand. So Cellular One, then US Cellular, and then I started at Voice Dream, which became T-Mobile, and then from T-Mobile I went to Ericsson, and from Ericsson I went to Samsung, and from Samsung I went to Mobility and then to T-Core for a short stint and then to Dell and now at Meta. I think that's the way it goes. You can check my LinkedIn profile if you'd like to verify.

Klara: 38:33

I'll add it to the episode notes. Is there a company or culture that you really appreciated the most? I know you don't connect particularly with company cultures.

Trevor: 38:43

So company cultures I find to be superficial and a waste of time. I will say that probably the only company I've worked for actually there's two, so there's two that I'll call out. So when I worked at Voice Dream, when I first started there, I don't know if it was actually all on its own if it was still part of Western Wireless.

Trevor: 39:17

But again, going back to the olden days, people that are in Wireless will know the name, John Stanton. So John Stanton was still the CEO of Voice Dream and I think he was the CEO of Western Wireless too, and I was just a salesperson so I didn't have like day-to-day interaction with John. But somehow I managed to win a quarter sales thing for one of the quarters and this is when I lived in Portland. So for the two or three day get-together for winning that quarter's sales something I don't know they would pick one of our markets. Unfortunately at that time Voice Dream was very small I think we only had like five, maybe six markets in the whole US and even worse, they decided to pick one that was probably the least interesting to me, which was Seattle, because I grew up in Washington so I've been to Seattle enough that going to Seattle wasn't a treat at that time but nonetheless went to the event and John came in and talked to our group of salespeople for maybe an hour and it's probably the only time I've listened to an executive at a company that I've worked for that I walked away and actually had respect for, Because he could rattle off any number on any part of the business that you could ask a question about, and he actually truly seemed to care about the business itself, and so I'm sure that probably helps develop culture.

Trevor: 41:16

I don't know that you can actually manage culture, though. In big companies. There's just slogans on the wall in my mind once they get big. But I did leave that event thinking, man, this guy's impressive. That's my only interaction I've ever had with him. I think the other person is one of my managers at T-Mobile, and for somebody who doesn't have warm feelings and empathy and compassion, that would be me, the manager that I had always had all of those things, plus probably a whole bunch of other stuff that I don't even know what to call it.

Klara: 42:11

This is Sasha, Sasha yeah.

Trevor: 42:14

So those are probably the only two people that I mean. You asked me about culture and that's probably the closest I can come to answering it, because I'm not a culture kind of person.

Klara: 42:26

So let's dive into your private network effects company. You're the founder and CEO of private network effects.

Trevor: 42:34

And the only employee.

Klara: 42:36

Congratulations.

Trevor: 42:37

The founder, the founding employee, employee number one, the CEO. I can give myself whatever title on top of that I want. It's the great thing about starting a company. You are whatever you want to be.

Klara: 42:50

Yeah, yeah, I'm the same for the Grand Slam Journey podcast.

Trevor: 42:54

That's right.

Klara: 42:56

So what made you start it? What made you do to be so passionate about it?

Trevor: 43:02

I've been in the in building enterprise wireless portion of the ecosystem for, let's say, seven or eight years although now that you've told me I've been in wireless for 30 years, I don't know if I have my numbers right, but let's just say seven or eight years and when I first got into that space was, with mobility, never done anything in that space before, didn't understand the space, and what I learned is it is a huge waste of time and money and resources and just very inefficient. So, being the person that I am, I started thinking way back then why don't we do something different? Why don't we do something better? Why don't we do something more efficient? And so that would probably be the starting point of why I'm doing what I'm doing now.

Klara: 44:17

It does make sense because I remember you coming back home and you were so frustrated that it was so complex and difficult and start brainstorming on how to make things easier and cheaper and more efficient and cost effective for enterprises.

Trevor: 44:36

Yeah, yeah, that's right. I mean there's different segments of the market. If you're looking at a stadium, what we were doing probably is about as good as you're going to get efficiency wise, because there's the stadium management and there's the company building the network, there's the carriers. All of that builds in time costs and efficiencies. You can't fix all of those problems If you look at a segment like an office.

Trevor: 45:14

So you're building a I don't remember what size they were, but 60, 70, 80 story building in downtown New York man, the wasted time and money and effort that goes into providing the service that you get at the end. I mean it's great that you have the service at the end of the day, but you can build it for at least 50% less and you could build it probably with 25% of the time and the end result would everybody would be just as happy with the quicker, simpler, cheaper solution than they are with the more expensive, time consuming, inconvenient solution. So, yeah, when you're looking at the market, I mean of course it's got to fit the need, but, yeah, the lack of innovation, the lack of thought, the lack of Consistent effort that you have to put in to change the minds of decision makers.

Klara: 46:31

What do you see are the main issues of other people stepping in and trying to make it more effective?

Trevor: 46:41

Well, you have the carriers. So the carriers, I mean they've spent I don't know the exact number, but it's got to be Wow, let's guess $150 billion in spectrum in the US, maybe more, maybe less, but it's gotta be somewhere in that neighborhood. So they've bought this asset that you can't see Just floating around somewhere and they have exclusive rights or they're supposed to have exclusive rights assuming nobody camps on their frequencies to that spectrum and they can use it to provide the service that they see fit to their customers, assuming it's within regulation, meets regulation of FCC how they obtain the license. So you've got the carriers who've spent all this money.

Trevor: 47:35

You've got carriers that also have a whole bunch of legacy ways of working, some of them more than others. Some of them are newer companies, some of them are older companies. You have companies who keep cutting staff, which puts strain on resources, both from a physical perspective but also from a financial perspective. And then you take those things and I don't know maybe some other things, but you take those things and the carriers try to figure out how do they actually monetize this? How do they get a return? How do they make their stock price go up? How does the CEO keep his job? How do I get my bonus? How do I get promoted? How do I make my KPIs look really good? How do I win the marketing message? And so there's a whole bunch of factors there and people and thoughts and influence and stubbornness.

Trevor: 48:51

So that's the carrier perspective. And then you've got the other side of the market. Actually, there's that's not maybe even the other side, there's a whole bunch of sides of the market. You've got RAN vendors right. So you've got your Ericsson, your Nokia, that you also include Alcatel and Nortel and Motorola, siemens I don't know the only ones I can think of, but Huawei, but not here.

Klara: 49:20

Yeah.

Trevor: 49:21

Huawei, I guess for a little bit. And if you're gonna go there, you got ZTE and somebody else. So you've got the RAN vendors, who they've got all the same problems really that the carriers have, except for they don't have the spectrum. So they've got their entrance positions and they got their product lineup and they gotta make money and they got their processes and their bonuses and their marketing and trying to win the carrier business. So you've got that as a second pillar let's use the fun CEO language of the week there's gonna be five pillars.

Trevor: 50:07

I'm gonna guess I don't know we can add to it or subtract to as we need, but this is gonna be the five pillars of enterprise wireless. Then you have maybe you could take the locations. So you've got the locations where you're gonna actually build this out at and I think they probably don't understand the market that well some better than others, but most people off the street that I have conversations about wireless with don't understand wireless that well. So I'm just assuming if you're in building management you might have a little bit more knowledge in general than the average person, but it's not your core business. So you've got to figure out, they've got to figure out. What do we do? Do we need it? How much does it cost? Do we get any return for it? What's the return? What's the structure of the deal?

Trevor: 51:11

How much money can I get out of it? Do I gotta pay for it? Can you convince all the carriers to come in? Do I need all the carriers to come in? What am I telling, saying? How do I get my bonus? How do I get a promotion? I'm sure all this stuff factors in, all right. So that's pillar number three. Pillar number four is you got whoever's gonna deploy the network?

Trevor: 51:40

So that could be a 3PO, that could be a system integrator, could be an equipment manufacturer. I guess in theory and really, you've got all the same problems. How do you monetize it? How do you convince them to sign on the dotted line? How much can I make off of it? What can I charge them for it? How am I gonna sell this to the carriers so they'll connect to it? How can I drive the cost out but keep my margins up? Right, I mean it's.

Trevor: 52:16

There's just a whole bunch of moving parts to everybody's calculus, most of which I've never been involved in. I don't care about that part of it so much. I see the dynamics because I'm in front of the customer, I deal with the vendors, I deal with the carriers. So I see all the dynamics and it just adds layers of complexity. And then you've got sometimes you have another layer which would be like, say, a project management group or just a management group itself, and again I don't know. I could rattle through their layers of stuff that they're concerned about, but basically you just have a whole bunch of hands, minds, thoughts, ideas and in general I think people are adverse to change.

Trevor: 53:18

And if you want to change something, I think the normal way is is you have to dedicate a lot of time and energy and possibly capital to changing something. And what's the motivation for anybody to change anything? And what's the motivation for anybody to change anything and any of those five groups, if things can at least work at the end of the day? It might take longer, it might cost more, it might be frustrating, but if it works, who's gonna spend the time, effort and capital to change it? So nothing changes. We just keep going on. We keep going on.

Klara: 54:12

Status quo.

Trevor: 54:13

Status quo.

Klara: 54:14

You described it well, I think. Also one thing I've observed, I would add you touched on it but for people to be aware, even the rent vendors or equipment vendors, they're typically tied to at least the big carriers and so just by the default, the business model because the carriers are the biggest customer they'll always lean towards supporting whatever the carrier position is, because that's pretty much where they get the vast majority of their revenue from. So I think you describe all of the roles of the, or pillars, I guess what you call them.

Trevor: 54:54

Yeah, that's right.

Klara: 54:55

Really.

Trevor: 54:56

That's what a CEO would say.

Klara: 54:59

Really accurately. So where do we go from there? How do you make it simpler? And why are you still so passionate about it? Because these companies that you had mentioned are really powerful. They're kind of established business cycle. What makes you so passionate about it and believing that there is a way. Is there a way to get this done and to deploy it?

Trevor: 55:25

Well, let's start off with I sort of started to do this a year or two ago and then I gave up. And who knows, maybe I'll give up again. That's hard to say. I mean, your two options are give up or don't. We'll see where this comes out over time. So how do you change things?

Trevor: 55:53

Well, if I was truly like a good business person, I would probably approach it differently than I do. But since I'm not, I don't know how you would approach it exactly that way. The way I approach it is is I like to just irritate people and I like to sort of point my finger and like tap them on the chest and be like this is stupid. And I'll just keep calling things out publicly when I have the chance, privately when I have the chance, and then, behind the scenes, work on what I think is a solution. And even at that, my thought process has changed over the last 18 months of what I think a solution is. So I have nothing to lose.

Trevor: 57:01

People don't wanna buy what I'm selling. In fact, actually, I'm not selling anything right now, so they can't buy what I'm selling. But if I get to where I have a product and they don't wanna buy what I'm selling. I don't really give a shit If they do great, but I don't really care either. I mean, the great thing is I don't actually care per se about making money off the solution. Success from my perspective for my company would be if it gets implemented. It's not if I make money off of it. So the approach I'm taking right now, I actually don't see a way to monetize.

Trevor: 58:07

Going back to pillars, the key pillar of what I think is missing. To simplify man for the rest of time. Well, I mean, things could change. So let's not say the rest of time, but let's just say for the next 10 years. Whoever has to deploy these things and whoever has to sell these things and whoever has to buy these things because they want coverage and capacity and service. They want their phone to work right For people who want their phone to work. If I can actually succeed, then it will allow all of those different people to just have such a better quality of life when they're building, deploying, selling, purchasing, and they won't be overdoing for what the actual need is.

Klara: 59:11

So if you put yourself in the shoes of enterprise or maybe any enterprises listening they're thinking about deploying networks and recognize that they need coverage and capacity and ability to make calls natively and simply, without over-the-top solutions, and have a good customer experience, how would you guide them to think through what they need to deploy and even sort through kind of the mess of the pillars and kind of the different messages that are going on the market?

Trevor: 59:47

Yeah, I mean right now. There's a few solutions out there that offer something different than what existed a year or two ago. But, it's still not an easy conversation. There's no silver bullet at this point, so there's nothing I could actually tell them right now if they were listening. I mean, the advice I would say is figure out what you truly need, what are you trying to solve for, and then go find somebody who actually cares. Good luck with that.

Trevor: 1:00:23

But that's what I would say is go find somebody who actually cares about solving the problem and isn't trying to solve their problem. Yeah, and each venue is different, right, I mean there's a lot of the same in each venue, but each enterprise is different, so what one needs may not fit the other, which is the great thing about it. There's different solutions. Like I said, you'd take a massive stadium, the new stadiums in LA or Las Vegas. Man, you need a desk there that has everything sub-six that you could possibly handle. You need Wi-Fi built into the stadium and then you probably still need millimeter wave installed in high traffic areas. So I mean that thing is going to be built out like crazy and you probably are using CBRS for some back of house stuff.

Trevor: 1:01:21

Nfl is using it for coach to coach or I don't know for something, but the NFL is using CBRS. So I mean you literally would have everything in that location, and then you could go down to a 20,000 square foot warehouse that employs six people and they just need their phones to work. They can't look something up on their phone if they need to, or they can't receive a call without walking outside. So it's a different application, it's a different process and I think the original advice stands Find somebody who actually cares about helping you solve the problem that you actually have not solving their problem.

Klara: 1:02:10

What are the questions you would suggest them to ask?

Trevor: 1:02:13

There's too many to. I mean, we'd be talking about this forever and I don't have a list. This is more of an impromptu thing that when I'm actually talking to somebody I can go through. But just understanding what their business is, I mean, yeah, you just got to understand what their business is and what they're trying to accomplish and try to look at it sort of as a today need and then how they may grow into it even if they don't know. Not that you have to sell extra shit for the stuff that they may grow into. Just so that you're aware, so that you understand you can build it properly, you can build a scaled down version that fits today but allows for growth.

Trevor: 1:03:04

But yeah, I'd say, ask them for a reference of five people that they've done this at. But I don't know. I'm not sure that I trust references all that much. I you know, use Google, google a restaurant or Yelp a restaurant. I'm not sure that those radians are accurate, so I'm not sure the referrals are going to be accurate. I don't know. I don't know how you figure it out. Really, if you're an enterprise, it's a bummer if you're an enterprise, and even worse for the enterprise, at least from the outside looking in. I've never been an enterprise, so I don't know is they have this with everything? It's not just wireless, you know, like LTE 5G wireless. It's maybe they have Wi-Fi and they have building controls and they have public safety tasks and they have plumbing and they have electricity and they have lighting and they have all of this stuff.

Speaker 3: 1:04:02

And for them to figure out what and how to do it.

Trevor: 1:04:06

Man, I don't know. I'd hate to run a big, a big building. There's just too much to know. So, yeah, I don't know. I don't know the answer.

Klara: 1:04:22

Considering you're not someone who likes people, or you say you don't really like people or keep in touch. You've been really passionate about building a community here in Austin of people in wireless who are trying to solve this problem, especially around private networks, and make it more scalable and more effective and more efficient. Yeah.

Trevor: 1:04:45

I'm trying to. Is it not working? Well, I thought I would try something new. Move to a new city? I thought I would try something new.

Klara: 1:04:55

What may she say is not working.

Trevor: 1:04:57

I can always fail at it. I'm all right with that. If it fails, participation sucks. You think two hours of somebody's time once a month, if nothing else, it's at a brewery and you think just to go and have a beer and relax for two hours. But maybe people do that all the time and so it's not that big of a deal. I don't know.

Trevor: 1:05:19

I really enjoy again, this is sort of my nature. I really enjoy arguing. So having a group of people in wireless that you can argue with, that maybe can argue against something, that I think that can help me improve upon my idea. I find that to be the greatest thing ever. But maybe that doesn't fit everybody else, maybe everybody else, everybody works differently, so I don't know. But yeah, I thought I would try it. I'll continue forward, see if we can make a success out of it. I'm not a good marketer so I'm not going to market that much and it'll just people either have to find value and participate or not find value. And I mean worst case scenario, I go have a beer and enjoy a new brewery that I haven't been to because there seems to be like a whole bunch here. So it'll take me a number of months to get through them all and yeah.

Klara: 1:06:38

So maybe for anyone listening who is in the wireless industry or specifically in Austin, or know someone's in Austin and wireless or perhaps even enterprise that are thinking about deploying some sort of private network and how to go about it, what would you want them to know about the event, how to find it and kind of the purpose of it?

Trevor: 1:06:59

Yeah, I would tell you the name, but I don't remember because I just changed the name because I had a request. Then my name wasn't catchy enough so I renamed it. I don't remember exactly what I renamed it to, but if you go to my LinkedIn profile, you can message me and I'll find it and send you a link. So that's how you would find it. Or maybe you're really good at LinkedIn and you can just find it somehow. Yeah, I mean, really the event is for anybody who has any interest in wireless whatsoever. But if you're in the private wireless space, the enterprise wireless space, even better. But there's no requirements as far as what your interest level is.

Trevor: 1:07:42

So you could be a vendor, you could be a SI, you could be a 3PO, you could be me, which has no product and a company, you could be an enterprise that wants to come and talk. You could be press. We have somebody from the press that comes, so you could be anybody. And it's really just if you find wireless interesting, or you want to learn about it or you want to argue. If you want to argue, man, come find me. Just tell me, if I haven't met you before, that you like to argue as well, or you don't like to argue, but you are going to argue with me anyway and we'll have a good time.

Klara: 1:08:24

Yeah, I could agree that you're pretty good in arguing and you enjoy arguing, but really in essence, is anyone who wants to learn about wireless, argue about wireless or have an idea in the realm of wireless or private networks, industry 4.0, the way people calling it IoT or kind of deploying some sort of system, and they just want to bounce off of ideas and ideate and see how they can brainstorm something productive or come with different ways to solve the problem.

Trevor: 1:08:59

Yeah. Or I mean ideally what's that?

Trevor: 1:09:04

And have a beer and have a beer. But yeah, and ideally there are people unlike me who doesn't actually have a product. There are people that come to do have products. Usually those people will actually have successes and then they can share their story of success too. I mean, that's always great to share something because you can learn something from that too. Like, maybe you learn something new when they talk about their deployment or their success or whatever it was that they did that you didn't realize existed or you didn't think about or whatever I mean. Or it could even be a failure where you tried to do something that didn't work. There's just so much good information that comes out of having these one-on-one conversations, assuming you actually are interested in it. If you're not interested, then it's probably not that fun. But if you're interested in the space, want to learn about the space, there's always something to learn.

Klara: 1:10:04

Yeah, and that's actually going back to more old Congress where we started. That's what you enjoy about the conferences the most. Like these one-on-one conversations and learning the reality from the people when you talk to them one-on-one.

Trevor: 1:10:17

Yeah, I mean, it's where you can get the biggest group of people together and then hopefully you find the right people. That's a crap shoot, but hopefully you find the right people where you can have engaging conversations and you can learn something. The conference itself eh, who cares really? You know, since we brought this back up again, the conferences are a big commercial and I'm all about promoting your business, but, man, it sure would be nice to have some of these conferences where people talk about like real stuff as opposed to the bullshit that goes on on stage. So if somebody at any event happens to be listening, book people who actually want to talk about hard subjects instead of promoting half-baked ideas and 6G.

Klara: 1:11:16

Well, you're not for the future of people walking around with the AR VR glasses on the street.

Trevor: 1:11:23

I'm indifferent. I mean I find it ridiculous. But it's fine and you can talk about it. But tell me how you're making it work. I don't care about what you're putting together. I mean, we still haven't even got 5G put together yet, completely.

Trevor: 1:11:40

So, academics need to be talking about 6G and they need to be putting together standards for it. But to go promote 6G when we can't even finish 5G seems stupid, and to promote any use case around it is even stupider, considering how bad we've done with 5G use cases. So if you think you're going to figure out what the 6G killer use case is right now and talk about it on stage as a commercial for your company, I just find it very boring.

Klara: 1:12:25

Maybe it's because the 5G hype is kind of wearing off and people aren't getting excited about hearing the story about 5G use cases, so they're trying to one up them. So it's the overachievers to come with new marketing hype, which is the 6G.

Trevor: 1:12:42

Yeah, no, it's totally about the hype. But that's my point exactly is, if you did a little bit less hype and you actually talked about something real, maybe you'd be excited about today, instead of waiting for what's coming like five years from now, that you're going to be in the same predicament as you are today, because by the time that comes out, you'll be talking about 7G already and you won't have launched anything meaningful with 6G or found a use case for it. So figure out what you can do now. Let's talk about that. If there's problem, let's talk about those problems. Figure out how we can actually collaborate throughout the ecosystem. I don't know, it's just. The whole thing is ridiculous.

Klara: 1:13:29

It seems to be actually quite related to, I feel, the society push of always just worrying about the next thing but not the presence, and trying to make things go faster and better and quicker. So we're just deciding to jump into the next thing and yeah because that's how we think. The future is always always brighter than what we have now or what we can do now.

Trevor: 1:13:57

You know, I look through all the different tracks for MWC. I can't recall a single one of them actually right at the moment. I know there's something about private networks. I know there's something about 6G, probably AR VR. My guess is there's something I don't know what the title would be, but something either ESG or how are we going to reduce power consumption? I'm sure there's something along those lines, which great if you can reduce power consumption.

Trevor: 1:14:34

But really a couple of things just from my point of view. To reduce power consumption, you have to sell all new stuff, which means you're scrapping stuff that works, which seems somewhat paradoxical to me. You're also, in theory, hopefully building maybe a higher bandwidth product or I don't know. Hopefully there's something besides just lower power that you're putting in this product that people are spending their money on, and by people, usually the carriers. But for the carriers to be successful, after they buy that, they've got to sell more crap that people probably don't need, which then? Are we really saving energy on anything?

Trevor: 1:15:25

At that point, I feel like we're just going in this circle with so many things, as opposed to let's just solve what's sitting in front of us or let's think about this logically in first principles of let's just do the basics and you get the basics done. This, actually there's a football analogy here and if I was a football person I could explain this a lot better, but I'm not. But it's something about blocking and tackling guaranteed, so somebody can respond to this in a wherever if you have comments somewhere. But I swear it's the basics of blocking and tackling and football. We're so focused on what's down the road or that we don't have that we can't even focus on.

Trevor: 1:16:14

what should we do, like what's a good solution that we could just implement right now? How do we simplify what we can do right now? How do we? I mean, if we want to use less energy, less resources, less components, less driving to sites, less install time, less materials, that saves energy. I mean, why don't we focus on that first? I mean there's just so many things that we could do that we're too busy looking off to the future.

Klara: 1:16:48

It sounds too logical, maybe.

Trevor: 1:16:50

The future's good. Don't get me wrong. You got to look at the future, but, man, there's a lot of stuff you could do in the present if you want to do.

Klara: 1:16:59

Yeah, we're starting to run out of time, so last few questions.

Trevor: 1:17:05

Six.

Klara: 1:17:07

That wasn't a question. Okay, as before we go to last few questions. Anything else on the wireless Dalbeck and private networks you want to get out to the world and cover.

Trevor: 1:17:18

No.

Klara: 1:17:20

Okay, we can have maybe another conversation in a few months time to see what you discovered and mobile with Congress.

Trevor: 1:17:28

See if I still don't have a product that I can't sell for zero dollars.

Klara: 1:17:34

You're making progress.

Trevor: 1:17:36

No, I am. I'm making fun of myself. I'm having fun with myself.

Klara: 1:17:40

All right Fast round. What was the most fun place you lived in?

Trevor: 1:17:49

Man, this isn't fast at all. When I was man, how old was I? Eight, seven, nine, Eight or nine? When I was eight or nine, we lived in a trailer park for two weeks in Oklahoma. Don't know the city, but there was an amusement park within walking distance of the trailer park and somehow in that two weeks I think we got to go there like three or four times, and this is before rides made me sick. And so I actually liked amusement parks. I mean, what's better than living right next to an amusement park?

Klara: 1:18:30

I think you listened to most of my Grand Slam Journey podcast episodes. Yeah. Do you have everyone?

Trevor: 1:18:39

Yeah, but I don't know which one it is. It was one that was like probably five or six or seven Roughly. I'm horrible with time periods. Who is it what? I don't know, but I actually listened to it and I was thinking to myself Claire's making really good progress on her podcast and she picked a really good guest for the podcast, but I don't remember who it was, so I can't give you my all time favorite, but your one with Annie Duke was really good.

Klara: 1:19:16

Thanks, annie is great.

Trevor: 1:19:18

Yeah, but that's not. That's not my favorite is one. I'd have to go back and look at it to figure out who my favorite one is.

Klara: 1:19:27

Okay, so we'll report later, yeah.

Trevor: 1:19:29

I listened to so many podcasts. I mean that's something we didn't talk about, but I listened to like four podcasts a day, so for me to keep any of them straight.

Klara: 1:19:39

You could be a professional podcast listener.

Trevor: 1:19:41

Well, I mean, I could be as long as I don't have to recall what's in the podcast.

Klara: 1:19:45

I still don't know. Do you have a most favorite podcast you would suggest right now, or you're listening to the most?

Trevor: 1:19:51

No, in fact, I would like to find a new favorite podcast, but I don't have a favorite right now.

Klara: 1:20:02

What would you want to inspire people to be doing more or for less of?

Trevor: 1:20:09

I'm not really an inspirational kind of person, so I don't know.

Klara: 1:20:22

Okay, we can do it one more time. Give it a.

Trevor: 1:20:25

I still don't know.

Klara: 1:20:26

Okay, I'll reframe it. But new question you say you had workouts, but you still work out every day. If you had to pick an exercise or a specific lift that you enjoyed the most, which one would it be?

Trevor: 1:20:43

Whichever one was maximally beneficial with the least amount of work. So anybody who knows that answer for lazy people but wants the maximum benefit, let me know.

Klara: 1:20:58

For like a whole body.

Trevor: 1:21:00

Yeah, I mean whatever gives you the maximum benefit overall.

Klara: 1:21:03

I think that could be a back squad.

Trevor: 1:21:06

Yeah, I don't know. But yeah, that goes to my non athletic laziness sign. Maximum benefit, least amount of effort.

Klara: 1:21:20

Yep. There's been a lot of chaos going on in the world lately.

Trevor: 1:21:23

I think it's always there. That's your view, that's right, it's always been there.

Klara: 1:21:30

Maybe it's more elevated because you have more information coming at you from all fronts. I mean, that has been a trend the past few years, but more so than if you look at the history even a decade or two decades later. Right, the way we consume information, or the information is coming at us, has been overwhelming, and so sorting through it and making sense of it is really difficult and it can create overwhelming feeling for many.

Trevor: 1:21:59

It's like you have a whole bunch of grandmas, that's true, because your grandma tells you stuff and most of it is bullshit.

Klara: 1:22:08

My grandma always tells me things about earthquakes and tornadoes and flooding and shooting, but they also give you these wise sayings and these.

Trevor: 1:22:19

You know, if you go out in the rain you're going to catch a cold things. So it's like you have 5000 grandmas telling you stuff all the time and most of it's useless. That's the only difference. Instead of only having two grandmas, like you did, say 30 years ago, you've got 5000 grandmas now.

Klara: 1:22:40

That's a good way to look at it. Yeah. All right. What would you suggest people to be doing more of, or less of?

Trevor: 1:22:49

Stay off social media. Social media has good points to it, but I'm not sure that you can't do the same thing via a group chat.

Klara: 1:23:03

But I'd say LinkedIn is social media.

Trevor: 1:23:06

It is, and it's not maybe quite the same as some of the other ones, but it is the best way to find people, or it's the best way I've found to find people in different companies and industries that you want to reach out to, which actually goes back to you can't just call somebody anymore and get who you need to talk to, because you call them and most likely you'll get voicemail or somebody but not the person you need to talk to, and then trying to get somebody to call you back is almost impossible.

Trevor: 1:23:51

I don't know if that's how it always used to be I don't feel like it did, but maybe it did and I just don't remember. So it's usually easier to get to them via LinkedIn, but in general social media, I think there's more negatives than there are positives, and if you just want to keep up with your family, start a group text message chain, I mean it'll do the same thing. In fact. I mean we're on a podcast, but podcasts can actually seem to have started to go down the same route. Everybody has a podcast geared towards a particular slant and it just goes down a rabbit hole.

Klara: 1:24:33

There's so many podcasts now including mine, I guess yeah.

Trevor: 1:24:37

I mean you can get good information out of it. And my theory is on podcasts is, if I can get 30 seconds of good information out of two hours, that was a good podcast. That's all I need to make it good, but there's a lot I listen to that. There aren't 30 seconds of good information in there, so it's a bummer. But yeah, stay off social media.

Klara: 1:24:57

Hard to hear first, so, now that you said 30 second of information, what would this 30 second of information condense to, if you wanted? To someone who's listening to this takeaway?

Trevor: 1:25:10

Yeah, if you're looking for wireless, find somebody who actually cares about solving your problem, not solving their problem. And the second part, which I don't know, that'll get me to 30 seconds, so I'm giving a little bit of filler. Here is stay off social media.

Klara: 1:25:27

I like it All right. Thank you, Chair, for joining the podcast. How did you enjoy it?

Trevor: 1:25:34

It was incredible.

Klara: 1:25:35

I'll do it again.

Trevor: 1:25:36

I think I was probably the most entertaining person I've heard on your podcast so far.

Klara: 1:25:41

Great.

Trevor: 1:25:41

Yeah.

Klara: 1:25:42

We'll do it again.

Trevor: 1:25:42

Yeah, sure.

Klara: 1:25:44

How should people find you?

Trevor: 1:25:46

You know, they should just call me.

Klara: 1:25:48

Should I have your cell phone number to the episode notes?

Trevor: 1:25:51

Yeah, why not? I mean, if you want to talk, I'm actually pretty open to talking to people. So if they want to call me, just call me.

Klara: 1:25:57

Okay, yeah, sounds good. If you enjoyed this episode I want to ask you to please do two things that would help me greatly. One, please consider leaving a review on Apple Podcasts, spotify or any other podcasting platform that you use to listen to this episode. Two, please share this podcast with a friend who you believe might enjoy it as well. It is a great way to remind someone you care about them by sharing a conversation they might be interested in. Thank you for listening. Bye. This is what's fun. This is what's good.