60. Ben Smith: Redefining Leadership and Holistic Health with Integrated Wellness

Are you ready to redefine your perception of leadership, relationships, and holistic health? We prepared a power-packed conversation with fitness and nutrition coach, army veteran, and entrepreneur Ben Smith. Having transitioned from a decorated military life to becoming an Integrated Wellness Coach, Ben brings a wealth of knowledge and an inspiring personal journey that encapsulates the essence of health, both mental and physical.

Ben opens up about his identity crisis and how he found solace in fitness and nutrition. He explains how he uses physical health as a stepping stone to mental, emotional, and spiritual wellness. Plus, Ben shares with us the secrets of his coaching philosophy, which is rooted in building long-term relationships and fostering a safe space for clients to explore new horizons. Get ready to redefine your understanding of leadership and holistic health as we dive into the unknown depths of therapy, breathwork, and even psychedelic therapy.

This episode doesn't stop at offering fitness advice. As we traverse the path of Ben's journey, we encounter the challenges he faced in transitioning from military to civilian life. He shares his struggles with identity crisis and how he emerged more robust. We also delve into the importance of rituals in managing life effectively, from journaling to cold plunging, and how they can help in personal growth and development. We conclude with a heartwarming conversation about authenticity, connection, and appreciation, making this episode a treasure trove of insights. So, join us for this riveting exploration, and let's redefine leadership, relationships, and holistic health together. Be prepared to be inspired, informed, and invigorated!

Resources:
https://www.instagram.com/benveesmith/
https://trainwithben.app/
https://linktr.ee/benveesmith

8 EIGHT SLEEP
Save $200 on 8Sleep and get better quality and deeper sleep with automatic temperature adjustment

LEORÊVER COMPRESSION AND ACTIVEWEAR
Get 10% off Loerêver Balanced Compression and Activewear to elevate your confidence and performance

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

This content is also available in a video version on YouTube.

If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with someone who may enjoy it as well, and consider leaving a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. You can also submit your feedback directly on my website.

Follow @GrandSlamJourney on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and join the LinkedIn community.

Transcript

Ben: 0:00

People are predisposed to lead in a certain way. So you inside the military, there's leadership by rank. Then there's also like leadership by relationship. It's not always the highest ranking guy who has the most influence. If your guys know you care for them, then they'll do anything for you. There's this old adage like mission first. Like in the military, it's like mission first, the mission trumps all. And I think there's like more to that. It's mission first, but people always. And so when you can recognize that like this is a people organization, it's a human organization, then you can really leverage that and leverage relationship into being most effective in your work. And I think the same is true with training. It's more than just reps and sets and weight on the bar. It's like developing a relationship and learning that other person Even more. I work with a lot of small groups, so it's like learning the group dynamic.

Ben: 0:46

My greatest strength as a coach is two-fold it's creating a space for people to try something that is probably pretty scary and then getting them excited about a thing that they don't even know they're excited about.

Ben: 0:57

And I think those two things together work so well, not just in fitness but in like business. If you're a business owner, you create the safe space for your people to try really hard, and then you get them super jazzed up about a thing that they probably aren't so excited about because it's your baby, not theirs. And so I think that, first, just understanding that all organizations are people organizations If I'm a leader in the military or I'm a leader in a team or a business, like I can tell people what to do, but like I'd rather show them, and so that kind of goes into the way that I train or the way that I coach. It's like yo, I'm also experiencing this, like we're experiencing the same things. The inputs might be different, but like I'm navigating a wellness journey you are too. I'll show you how I show up for that, and then, if you are interested and can take ownership of it, you can also in turn, show up in a way that's valuable.

Klara: 1:44

Hello, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to Grand Slam Journey podcast, where we discuss various topics related to finding our passion and purpose, maximizing our potential sports, life after sports and transitioning from one chapter of our lives to the next, growing our skills and leadership and whatever we decide to put our minds into. For my guest today, ben Smith, all of these areas apply. Ben Smith is a fitness and nutrition coach, entrepreneur, army veteran and mental health advocate based in LA. With more than a decade working in health and fitness, he has led programming at respected strength training gyms in LA, developed online training for high performing individuals all over the world, and currently travels the globe as performance coach for clients in the music industry. Ben promotes holistic mind-body wellness by candidly sharing his own experience along the way, and what a journey and life experiences he has gone through.

Klara: 2:52

As is typical for my guests, ben's background is in sports, then he transitioned to military, where he had a successful career for almost 10 years, and then he was faced with identity crisis when transitioning from military to what I call the normal civilian life.

Klara: 3:13

I so appreciate this conversation and the openness with which Ben shares his own struggle of finding himself and helping to find holistic health for others. We talk about many topics, including leadership, trust, saying no confidence or lack of thereof, following through when we're afraid to do a hard thing, creating time for yourself and what is most important for your growth breath, work, cold plunging, performance, mindset and rituals, journaling, sleep and many others. I love Ben's message that we all are more similar than different and we all struggle with pretty much the same things. Ben has a grounded approach to holistic health, and the way he chooses to coach is by being in the trenches with the people he works with and focusing on creating long-term relationships. Ben says many times during this conversation that he doesn't have anything figured out, but I would argue that his perspective seems very accurate to me and I would argue that through his tough experiences in life that he has gone through thus far he has been able to figure out a lot of things.

Klara: 4:34

I started my podcast for several reasons, some of which I'm still uncovering as I have gone on my podcasting journey, Despite this conversation being recorded a few months ago. I have to apologize to Ben for just getting it out and launching it now, and what a timing it is, at least for me personally. After a while, I somewhat forget some of the deep and insightful conversations I have had with my guests, and for what a reason this one really hit a home run for me during this time. That, in many ways, is not easy for me. I have found a lot of insights and inspiration producing this episode, and so I hope you will enjoy it as much as I did.

Klara: 5:22

I'm really bad with quotes or remembering quotes, and so I nurtured one of them that I think I should correct, and it goes like this you can recognize more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation, said by the famous ancient Greek philosopher, Plato. If you enjoyed this conversation, I want to ask you to please share with someone you believe may enjoy it as well. Consider leaving a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss the next episode. This is your host, Clara Jagoshova, and now I bring you Ben Smith. Ben, thank you so much for accepting my invitation to Grand Slam Journey podcast. Welcome, how are you?

Ben: 6:09

I'm doing really well. Like I said, I'm really excited to be here and I'm really interested in getting into a conversation with you.

Klara: 6:16

Yeah, we have so many interesting topics we previously touched on that we can dive into, so I'm curious where this takes us. How's the setting in California actually? You live in LA now, correct?

Ben: 6:29

Yeah, it's really good. If I could turn you 90 degrees to the right, you'd see the sun starting to set over the ocean. It's really special. I'm incredibly lucky to live here.

Klara: 6:39

Yeah, it's a beautiful place. I think when we connected, I lived in Southern California for about four years Orange County and there was still the place where I would move back. In fact, I had to move because it was so growing on me that I felt like if I'm there longer, I'll just never move. I wasn't ready to settle, but it's a fantastic place.

Ben: 7:00

That's kind of how I feel right now. I've been here for just over five years and it is perfect.

Klara: 7:08

Yeah, I think that the four and a half five years it was really just starting to settle in. So let's see if you ever relocate or you're going to be there for life.

Ben: 7:19

I doubt it. I have no plans of leaving at the moment.

Klara: 7:22

Great, and so, before we dive into all of our interesting topics, please, I want to give you an opportunity to introduce yourself to the listeners.

Ben: 7:32

Yeah, so my name is Ben Smith. I'm an Integrated Wellness Coach. I run a performance coaching business where I work with founders and creatives almost exclusively in the music industry. At this point. I tour with artists a majority of the year about 200 days a year and I look to build sustainable wellness practices for them, not only at home but while on the road as well. So it applies to the musician on the road, but then also the executive who's got the busy lifestyle and maybe doesn't have time, or doesn't think they have time, for their physical, mental, emotional or spiritual wellness. I use the physical domain, physical fitness itself, as the gateway into improved mental, emotional and spiritual wellness, and so a lot of my work is really centered around getting out of your thinking head and into your feeling body, and the easiest way for me to do that myself and then with the people I work with is by just moving that body.

Ben: 8:27

I myself was an athlete. My whole life, played sports up until college and then joined the military. I was in the army for just shy of 10 years, and after I left the army I went through a whole slew of mental health struggles myself Bit of an identity crisis. Leaving the army, I knew that I was this high performer there, I thought the entire world would recognize how valuable I might be getting out, and I was in for a very rude awakening. I got out of the army and entered this civilian world and realized that I wasn't that special at all. It led to this identity crisis, like I said, and then, ultimately, me not being able to find work, not being fulfilled in the work that I did find, and then kind of just like scrapping it all starting over.

Ben: 9:09

During that time, I had a bit of a depression.

Ben: 9:12

I fell into a bit of a depression and I attempted suicide a number of times in late 2018 and early 2019. And that experience, while like tragic and the gravity of which it's like pretty heavy, but it was the most important thing that's ever happened to me, learning how to navigate that experience. And then it initiated this incredible exploration of like who I am, what I am and how I can best show up in the world. And so I started therapy. I got introduced to breath work and exposure therapies like cold exposure, psychedelic therapy, and really just kind of turned my life around. Finally, like discovered what my life was outside of the uniform, and so now I've been running a coaching business for the last five years and it's been the most incredible journey of my life. I know we talked about it on the last call, but my work is really just inviting people to join me on my own wellness journey and so, shoulder to shoulder, we navigate it together, versus like a face to face coach client type thing. It's like we're in this thing together.

Klara: 10:12

I love it and I also enjoy inviting others to work out. I think what you do is in this impromptu.

Ben: 10:19

Yeah.

Klara: 10:20

I don't know. There is a little bit different mindset. I'm curious how you feel about it, because I have coached people before as well, especially in tennis. I've coached even throughout colleges, I've played. I've always find a few hours here and there and find clients, but now I really just enjoying sharing the workout with someone and obviously adapting it to whatever levels they are and helping them find kind of the joy and what I sort of enjoy and seeing if it kind of catches on or fine tuning it and helping them sort of discover new areas that they may enjoy. Do you find the difference as well? I don't know if I can describe it accurately. How do you see the nuance playing in?

Ben: 11:04

Well, I think, just maybe to hit on your point about like sharing the space with somebody and like actually being involved in their training. I joke all the time. There's this old movie series called Slap Shot but Paul Newman plays the lead character and he's a player coach. He's the coach of the team but he's also a player, so I like to. When I coach somebody, I'm often training alongside them. I know that's not usually the case in a personal trainer or performance coach type setting. It's almost like there's a power dynamic and I don't subscribe to that.

Ben: 11:33

I'm often training alongside, I'm often like for lack of a better term in the trenches with the people I work with and I think that shared struggle, even if it's just a one-on-one type of experience I mean tennis is very similar because you're playing with them. Yes, there's two things for me, it's like, okay, I've got somebody championing my effort. Like me, as a coach, I'm championing them, showing up for themselves, and there's momentum there for the both of us. And then also, too, it's just a really incredible opportunity to realize that, like when they see me struggling, it's like oh, we're not that different. Like I look up to him as an authority, maybe Like, oh, we're not that different, we're like in this together, we're navigating it together and everything's gonna be totally fine.

Ben: 12:12

I've realized this over a long period of my own struggle. Or, like working with individuals, it's like realizing that we're far more similar than we could ever imagine. I know that's not the primary mission of the work, but it's a really cool takeaway that, like holy cow, we're like not that different and we can be friends in the journey, versus, like I said before this, like power dynamic. I don't like that at all. I wanna be a teammate, I wanna collaborate on the work together. And then to your point. Earlier you're talking about just like one-off sessions, like inviting someone to train, kind of like impromptu. I'm very excited about long-term relationships. I want you to like incorporate me in your life.

Ben: 12:52

That's my goal, like I'm now a part of your life and so for a lot of people it doesn't work, like I don't work with a lot of people because either I'm not the right fit for them or they're not the right fit for me, but like if we work together you are now a part of my life and, in turn, I am a part of yours, and I think that that just provides an opportunity for there to be like a real relationship and then real authenticity, real vulnerability, and then the ability to access growth that you, like, didn't even realize was possible. It's more than just meeting three times a week.

Klara: 13:19

Yeah.

Ben: 13:20

That's not my vibe.

Klara: 13:21

I love it and what I also wonder. I want to go actually back to your full story, where this conversation is kind of taking me. I wonder how much of that military mindset crowned you in that Cause I envisioned that's how it is. I've never been, obviously, in military. I've heard stories. I have friends who have been there and so we'd love to dive into that journey if you want to at some point. But I envisioned that sort of how it is, cause you have a leader, but they still set a mission and everybody sort of goes together. And from leadership perspective, really, when I look at Simon Sinek all these guys and girls that are preaching the best lessons from leadership they always take examples from the military how to choose the team and how to lead a team. So I wonder if that really experienced shape to you to kind of adopt the mindset how you're coaching people now in wellness and health overall.

Ben: 14:20

Absolutely, and I think people are predisposed to lead in a certain way. So you inside the military, there's leadership by rank. Then there's also like leadership by relationship. It's not always the highest ranking guy who has the most influence. It's the guy that the people trust and the guy that if your guys know you care for them, then they'll do anything for you. I wrote down a bunch of notes as you were talking.

Ben: 14:42

But there's this old adage like mission first. Like in the military, it's like mission first. The mission trumps all. And I think there's like more to that. It's mission first, but people always.

Ben: 14:52

And so when you can recognize that like this is a people organization, it's a human organization, then you can really leverage that and leverage relationship into being most effective in your work. And I think the same is true with like training. It's more than just reps and sets and weight on the bar. It's like developing a relationship and learning that other person Even more. I work with a lot of small groups, so it's like learning the group dynamic.

Ben: 15:14

My greatest strength as a coach is two-fold it's creating a space for people to try something that is probably pretty scary and then getting them excited about a thing that they don't even know they're excited about, and I think those two things together work so well, not just in fitness, but in like business. If you're a business owner, you create the safe space for your people to try really hard, and then you get them super jazzed up about a thing that they probably aren't so excited about because it's your baby, not theirs. This is what I found when I started working in the civilian world. It's like I couldn't understand why I needed to care about digital marketing, like, or why I was supposed to sell it. It just didn't make any sense to me, and so I think that first just understanding that all organizations are people, organizations, and then the relationship player coach or between a client and a coach is really just a relationship like any other friendship.

Ben: 16:01

First, if I'm a leader in the military or I'm a leader in a team or a business, like I can tell people what to do, but like I'd rather show them, and so that kind of goes into the way that I train or the way that I coach. It's like yo, I'm also experiencing this, like we're experiencing the same things. The inputs might be different, but like I'm navigating a wellness journey. There's a physical component, there's a mental component, there's an emotional component and there's a spiritual component. You are too. I'll show you how I show up for that and then, if you are interested and can take ownership of it, you can also, in turn, show up in a way that's valuable for you. I know that's incredibly general, but the major takeaway is like lead by example In word and deed, bring mostly deed like show up and do it.

Klara: 16:46

Yes, I love that and everything you've said. I was also thinking about my corporate experience, and it's so true and equally true. In large corporations, even the one I work for. Right, you have the ranks and, yes, the order comes from above, but then there's these people who may have been there for a long, or maybe even not long, but have been able to establish trust and expertise in a specific domain and sort of how you create these relationships. That's what allows you to progress forward in whatever project or business area that you're looking for and be more effective in the long run, for sure.

Ben: 17:26

It's incredible. It's incredible value of just seeing people. The gym space is easy because people are doing something that's vulnerable. My hard in a workout is inherently vulnerable, so I get to see people in a way that the world might not see them. So that's a very easy entryway into a deeper conversation, if I'm willing to have it and they're willing to have it. Yes, but I'm sure it's more challenging in a corporate setting or in another setting that is less vulnerable.

Klara: 17:50

Yeah, I agree, it's awesome to see people going through at least some sort of struggle, and I think the physical struggle is a good one, because you see how they act, how they handle stress, how you can cheer them on how they learn.

Klara: 18:05

Yeah, there's a famous quote somebody said and I'll probably butcher it, because I butcher most quotes, but it goes something like you can recognize more in an hour of a play about a person and sort of work out can be part of it. You will just be able to find out about them and how they operate way faster.

Ben: 18:24

Absolutely.

Klara: 18:25

So, going back to your upbringing, where did you grow up and what led you into sports?

Ben: 18:31

Yeah, so I'm from Indianapolis, Indiana. I have a Chicago Cubs hat on, but I'm from Indiana. I grew up like every other Midwestern boy being pushed into athletics. I happen to be pretty good at them and so, like most people, you tend to gravitate towards the things that you're good at. So I played almost every sport except football. My dad would never let me play football it's hilarious because he wanted to keep my brain safe. And then I joined the army and I become a canineer and shooting off cannons all the time and my brain was like no longer safe. But yeah, so I played almost every sport. I happened to be really good at sticking ball sports so, like baseball, golf, I played ice hockey for forever.

Klara: 19:10

That's not very safe for brain either. Ice hockey.

Ben: 19:13

No, no, but you know what are you going to do. It was my favorite of the three and sports gave me a lot of opportunity socially that I, like, maybe wouldn't have had otherwise. I felt very comfortable in the team sport aspect, had a lot of social anxiety as a kid. Around people my age, I gravitated towards adults. Mostly most of my friends now, as I'm 33 years old, most of my friends now are in their 40s, 50s and 60s, just where I've always gravitated. So sports allowed me the opportunity to really connect with the people who are at my same grade or in the same age range as I.

Ben: 19:46

And then sports just led to the army. I was going to say, naturally, I don't think it's a natural progression, but but I was looking for something more. I had a mentor, almost like a second father figure, one of my coaches growing up, who happened to be a Vietnam veteran, and I asked him I was like hey, I'm getting recruited to play golf at this academy. I don't know anything about it. What do you think? And he goes oh, you couldn't do that, you're not cut out for that. I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and be like, oh, he knew that by saying that he'd been my coach for a number of years. He knew by saying that's that I was going to go and be successful. And so he told me that I would never succeed.

Ben: 20:23

And I was like, well, I'm going to show you, buddy, and went and had a decently successful time in the military just shy of 10 years and four years in school and then almost six active duty, and I held a leadership position at almost every level and I loved it.

Ben: 20:40

I loved it so much I thought I was going to do it forever. And then I ultimately decided that, after some injuries and a little bit of uncertainty at the five year mark, I was like you know what, if I stay any longer, I'll be here forever. I'll be 42 when I get out and I don't know that I'm ready to commit to that. And so I just decided that I would make a hard pivot and exit the military, and I'm so thankful I did, because I look back now and I'm like I would have never been able to access the spiritual, emotional and mental growth that I have since exiting. I didn't even know what feelings were. I didn't know how the way that I feel impacts the way I show up in the world. I didn't have language to put around anything that I was experiencing, and so for that alone I'm, like incredibly thankful, not only for my time there, but for the exit too.

Klara: 21:27

Well, I wonder, how is the decision to join military? Because when I talk to people that would say, oh, I went into military, I was Army Navy, you know it was just like words thrown around, but to me it just seems such an insane decision that goes with pretty much putting your life at risk for the country and the people around you, because everything is team oriented. I guess number one do you process that feeling early on, even when you go through the training? And then what goes into actually making that decision? Like how do you say, yeah, this is for me, I'm going to try it, Because to me it will be such a terrifying thing to do and try?

Ben: 22:13

Yeah, I know I said it Like. This is totally for real. The guy that I looked up to most was like you can't do it.

Klara: 22:19

And I was like fuck you man.

Ben: 22:21

I'm going to do it. And so in every moment where I was like, oh, I don't want to do this and there were many moments where I was like, oh, I don't want to do this, this is awful that was in the back of my head and I don't think I'm that guy anymore Like I don't know that I would be influenced in the same way. Now, 15 years later, but at 18 years old I cannot believe that was 15 years ago. But at 18 years old, if you told me, no, I was going to do it. And I look back, like in any context, like if my parents are like, don't do that thing, I'm going to be like, oh, yeah. I'm going to do that.

Ben: 22:53

And I'm going to make you know that I did it Truthfully. The only reason I went to West Point for school, the only reason I joined the army, is because they were the only ones that I knew about. I didn't do any other research, I didn't look into anything else. I was like, oh, that's the one, I'm going to do that. Ultimately, it was the right fit for me. But I often think back. I'm like, oh, had I just gone in a different direction, how would my life have panned out? I don't know. It would have been the right choice.

Ben: 23:18

I have this idea that I often share with many people Whatever the decision was, it was the right decision and to think otherwise would be the biggest disservice you could ever give yourself. Like, I just had a friend who recently went through a breakup and it was a long term relationship and he's older and she's older and he's struggling with the fact that maybe this was a bad idea, maybe I didn't make the right choice for either of us and the relationship's done. It's like what other choice do you have in this moment? You made the right choice, acknowledge it, take what you can learn, discard everything else and move forward to the next thing. Maybe that doesn't apply to me deciding to go up to the military or my fitness journey, but just in life in general, if you make a decision, it was the right one.

Klara: 24:05

I agree. I think, looking back, I've had the same thoughts at some point about tennis and the more I dive into decision-making actually I've been on a whole strain of you. Know, annie, do you study how to make better decisions? Because I'm obsessed with decision-making.

Ben: 24:26

There are better decisions, but once it's made, all you can do is make another one, like another decision later, based on the new information. But yes, I agree.

Klara: 24:34

I think it's interesting because the more I think you ponder and open up the space that it may not have been the right choice, you contemplating about all these what-ifs, options, right, and I think that's just typically useless and takes you through a bunch of other rabbit holes that I find are often not productive for us humans. I guess, personally, it's a spiraling thought.

Ben: 25:01

I'm the king of rumination. My joke is like if you Google rumination, my photo comes up. If you Google anxiety, my photo comes up. I spend so much time inside my own head thinking about all the things I've ever said out loud or all the things that I've ever done. This is a daily process for me and I had a friend of mine who we talk about distraction often and how I'm the king of finding distractions from the things that actually matter. I spent the whole entire afternoon building office furniture when I didn't need to do that. I had other, more important shit to do and he's called my rumination.

Ben: 25:38

Now, just my latest distraction. It's my easiest and most accessible opportunity for me to not do the things I know I'm supposed to do. And he looks at me and he goes why don't you just make it easier, like that thing that you're worried about? Why don't you just do it and stop thinking about it? Quit trying to understand, just execute. And I know that's like a very rudimentary approach to it, but I've been thinking about it quite a bit and it's like the world doesn't exist up in here. The world exists in 4D, around me. It's not up here, it's out here. So I want to make progress and I want to make change and I want to impact. I don't do it here, I do it out in the world.

Ben: 26:10

And so coaching for me, to bring this all the way back around, to like what I do professionally, coaching for me is that opportunity to get out of my thinking mind into my feeling body. It is the only place that I'm in flow. I know you're familiar with flow state, I'm sure, being an athlete. It is the only place that I'm in flow when I'm sharing the space, the physical space, with somebody and I'm helping them navigate a stressful situation. It just happens to take the context of coaching, but it showed up for me when I was an Army officer and I was like helping a young soldier learn how to fire the cannon, or like shoot his weapon, or like plan the mission brief, like all of those things. And it's taken me now 33 years to understand that, like maybe this is the place I need to be, at least for now, in the coaching role and I'm welcoming it with open arms.

Ben: 26:59

I think the same guy, the same guy who told me to just make it easy, he said and I'm sure this shows up for many people, but it's like they're great at a thing. Probably Most people are great at something or really good at something and they fight tooth and nail to try and make something else work for them, like it could be that corporate job or it could be. I wanted to write for a long time and writing just wasn't taking off for me. But I was doing a lot of other things really well and he was like why don't you just like for a second? Quit trying to swim upstream, turn around, let the water take you and take in the view and I was like yes.

Ben: 27:37

So I think part of it is like recognizing what you're good at, where your skills can show up and be valuable for other people and yourself, and then leaning into it. For me, that just happens to be coaching. For you that's probably a million things and that's great. You get to decide, yeah, but for me, I know for sure, it's coaching.

Klara: 27:51

I love that. I love coaching a lot. It's very fulfilling and just seeing somebody grow, I think the result that you can get and the satisfaction that you can see somebody progressing in front of your eyes and with the physical kind of ability that's pretty quick, like if you're doing the right thing, you see quite quickly You're improving week over week. You know, in two, four, six weeks span of time you can lift more ways. You feel better about yourself, your body feels better, your confidence goes up and it translates to all of the other parts of your life.

Ben: 28:27

Probably without even knowing which is the coolest part for me.

Klara: 28:30

I mean, I am very aware of that, because this is something I wonder and still contemplate about people, let's say, like you and I, that have been attracted to sports and the physical effort from early on. I think we naturally gravitate and actually I love putting in the work, I love the training, I love the process.

Klara: 28:52

It's just the grinding and sometimes the suffering, which you know there's a bad side of it, but I love kind of learning how to suffer. Well, I think it's a skill and, to your point, the mindset that you get through when you're suffering from workout and the clear space in your head that you get from it is one of the best feelings that you can have, from my perspective in life. Right, I wonder how it is for the other people that don't work out, because I see such a clear improvement on all aspects of my life when I work out and I see degradation when I don't on everything.

Klara: 29:32

Ability to focus you know I can keep attention on conference calls, even like thinking about sedentary things in corporate job that don't require the level of physical ability that I even have now, but it translates to how my brain works, yeah. So I wonder if it's just because the way we're wired, or is it the other people that haven't gotten attached to workout just get satisfaction from something else or they don't recognize the difference as much? Have you noticed this now as you coach people from all different aspects of life?

Ben: 30:07

Yes, I think it's just the baseline is different, like their homeostasis is different or my homeostasis, our homeostasis is just different. I will use an example to apply to this. I'll start by saying the thing that I said earlier, just so that people listening can remember it is that the easiest way to get out of your thinking head, that anxious rumination, whatever it is that you're experiencing up here, and get into your feeling body, a place that's grounded, centered and in control, the place from which you make the best decisions of all time, is to just move that body. The easiest way, the lowest hanging fruit, the most accessible way to get out of here and into here. I'll use an example.

Ben: 30:47

So my younger sister I moved out here five years ago. She moved here four years ago. She'd been a dancer her whole life. She never really trained. She's a year younger than I. We didn't really have a relationship, but as adults we came back together and like we're starting out kind of fresh as adults.

Ben: 31:02

I'm her coach, she's my client and we strength trained for a number of months. About a year in she's like I'm gonna start doing some sprinting and like jumping and all this stuff. I was like, okay, perfect, let's do it. And so I asked her to go run a 40 yard sprint at like 60% intensity. I'm like you know about half speed, go for it. She runs it. I'm like, okay, great, now we're going to do 80%. She runs basically the same speed. I'm like, all right, let's do 90%. She runs basically the same speed. I'm like, all right, stay with me. 95%, like just shy of a hundred, just almost 100%. She runs almost exactly the same speed. And she's like I'm going as fast as I can, ben, I'm doing everything I can. And I was like, okay, you're going to run one last one. No, like prescription, it doesn't matter how fast you run, I just want you to run. She starts going and I start chasing her and very quickly she's now at 102% and she's accessing a thing that she's never had to access before. And we get to the end of the 40 yards real short sprint and she looks at me and she goes, oh my God. I was like, yeah, that's what full speed is or that's what 100% is.

Ben: 32:11

And so I think maybe you know to like, bring this back to your point. It's like people who've never trained, not routinely focused on their physical wellness, just don't even know how great they could feel. I'll share from an opposite perspective, coming from someone who has trained their entire life and, I think, in my 23rd year of being on a structured strength and conditioning plan 23 years, you'd think I'd be more jacked, I know, but like 23 years, the moments in my life where I was in the most amount of chaos, where I was having the largest problems mentally, emotionally and physically when I neglected my physical health. I look back on periods where I was like trying to kill myself or where I would succumb to the depths of my addiction or I let all of my relationships fall apart or I was acting out and doing things that were, like, probably not great. For me were moments where I had stopped attending to my physical wellness. And so for me now, in this position here, presently, where I have awareness around that I will never, I will never let my physical fitness like deteriorate or I will never not make it a priority.

Ben: 33:19

And I love saying that to people because I'm like, why don't I have time? I don't have time. I have a job, I have four kids, I have two dogs, I have a husband and he hates when I'm not at home. And I'll say two things. First, your husband would love, probably, or your kids would love, to do a physical activity with you, like that would be great, an opportunity to team build inside your family unit. I love that.

Ben: 33:40

But also my week. This week has been chaos and I've been doing 15 minute workouts every day, had a little bit of predictability. I knew this week was going to be nuts, so I just accepted that this week I'm going to do six 15 minute workouts. That's two hours of training. I'm going to be great. I'm going to get better because of it. But I had the predictability, I had the foresight and I just now I'm just going to execute and people are like, oh, I don't know how to do that, I can't do that and list the help of a coach, please. You is an incredible resource, but if you want to make a change or you want to do a thing, there are so many resources available to do that. Follow me on social media and I'll help you out. What I'm saying is there are so many ways to get this done and physical fitness. Physical fitness is the place to start if you have nowhere else to go.

Klara: 34:30

I love what you mentioned and even reflecting on my own time, it is so easy to push everything else aside and prioritize just the things that other people are giving on your plate and saying yes.

Klara: 34:45

I think standing up and saying no and creating time for yourself when the world is already in chaos is the hardest thing to do, and I think it's one of the, or if not the most important thing to do, especially when the world is in chaos, because the weeks that I've been extremely busy, I was like, oh, I'll just work out the next day, I'll just become more irritable, I continue to overthink. So we talked about the overthinking and running things through in your head, million different versions at the same time, not able to fall asleep because you're still wired and you don't have any break between kind of what's going on in the world versus space for yourself. And so creating that I love even then, five, 10, 15 minutes. You're going to have a fantastic killer workout. In five minutes it will turn off your brain, gets you in a different dimension. Just do burpees full on for five minutes.

Ben: 35:46

Or you just, or you do anything like or you do anything. You go for a five minute walk and the purpose of that five minutes is just to connect with your body, to take in the world around you, to feel the air on your skin. It could be that simple. Yes, I joke. Well, the people I work with, fitness is often the reason that they come to me. It's like, oh, I need to look better in my swimsuit or like whatever it is.

Ben: 36:09

But very quickly we realized that the fitness is like, while very important, it is the least valuable of the wellnesses or of the components.

Ben: 36:20

It's like physical fitness is a constant, but the way that I really make my life better is by having the physical fitness thing be a system that just allows me to access other parts of my emotional, my spiritual and my mental health.

Ben: 36:35

Like if I become better at self regulation, I become better at communicating, I become better at putting language to how I'm feeling, I become closer to my God or my source or whatever it is Like.

Ben: 36:46

When those things start to happen, the way that you show up in the world is so vastly different. It's like truly remarkable to see, and I'm sure you've seen this with people before, and I think all of it comes back to self confidence and I think to your earlier point about like, when you're prioritizing other people's goals or other people's work for you, you kind of put yours on the back seat and standing up for yourself and really just being like, hey look, these are the things I'm not going to negotiate on. The self confidence that that builds for you is incredible. And then if you actually show up for yourself and execute on those things that you're not budging on, it's just like endless self confidence, and I really love seeing people step into like a more confident, more more vibrant version of themselves and a lot of times it just takes them, you know, standing up for them themselves in those little moments.

Klara: 37:36

Yeah, it's hard. I mean, I think it's hard for everyone. I haven't seen a person saying no is a natural thing. I think it's a skill, it's so hard, it's so hard.

Ben: 37:47

I am at the point now where I and this is my own growth, but I was very much on the opposite I would do everything for everybody and totally neglect myself. And I think with most things you swing all the way to the other end where it's like I'm going to tell everybody no all the time. Nobody gets anything from me, I'm only centered on myself, and then you realize that that's not sustainable either. But I think, to oversimplify it, it's just like getting very clear about the things that are important and then discarding everything else. And again I'm jumping around like crazy. But if you are coming from a place of lack, a place of feeling like you're not enough, a place of feeling like, oh my God, I have to prove myself or have to perform, you open yourself up to not being able to say no when it matters. And then, when you come from a place of abundance and growth and expansion, then you can realize that like it's okay to say no, it's okay to be committed to the things that you say that you want, and like by removing things from your life, you open up the space to be effective where it matters. I'm going through this personally with myself. We talked earlier.

Ben: 38:52

A lot of my work, all of my work, is word of mouth, referral based. I have a relationship, I build a relationship with somebody and they tell their people and their people come to me and like, oh my God, I'd love to like have the same result and like sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. For me, stepping out of my comfort zone and being more public with the work I do is the scariest thing of all time. Like doing this is a step in that direction. But I want impact and I want to change lives, and so for me it's like okay, my commitment to myself this year, what's to do more public facing work, have opportunities for people to work with me.

Ben: 39:25

I have an app that's public which was terrifying to launch. It was like a whole thing, and I know that there's a future. There's a future I want to live and it involves expansion and impact and growth and all these cool things. And I know for sure that by saying no to a whole bunch of stuff, I'll be able to really devote energy there. So I'm the king, in the same way that I'm the king of rumination and anxiety. I'm also the king of saying no, and I love it.

Klara: 39:52

That's a great skill, ben. I love it. So many things in the toolbox that you can help us discover. You mentioned something really important and that connects a little bit even to your past and my journey personally is proving yourself, and I totally agree that, at least from my own experience. If you're trying to prove yourself, it's almost like you're putting a limit on yourself within which you can operate and it doesn't allow you to be as authentic and discover what else is possible.

Klara: 40:27

I actually feel like when I'm trying to prove that I'm worthy of a specific job or role or position, I actually start doing mistakes or I'm stepping worse and things don't come naturally to me. You even mentioned, really you joining Army was because you were trying to prove you can do it, and I wonder if that mindset is a little bit different earlier on, because I had a little bit of that in the childhood too. Right, you always said high goals and other have expectations and you're trying to achieve so as we grow through life. I'm really repivoting from that mindset. But how have you discovered this and how you helped yourself and maybe others navigate away from that, because I think that's too hard.

Ben: 41:14

I don't have it figured out at all, I think that I'm going to be a stretch, but so proving yourself you talk about authenticity is maybe showing up in a way that isn't authentic.

Ben: 41:25

It's showing up in a way that might serve the needs or expectations of someone else or a group or something, or like a boss or whatever it is. I love this idea of without expectation. There is no limitation, so no expectations, no limitations. And so I think that's showing up vulnerably, as myself, without any expectation, like even in a coaching role or in a relationship. And again, this is like the hardest thing of all time and I don't have it figured out, but just working hard in moments where I can be aware of it, you're like, oh my God, you're Ben, you're putting on a mask, you're performing, you're trying really hard in this moment. And if I can just check in with myself and realize that, okay, if I remove that expectation and I could show up the way that, like I often think of myself as a child, child, ben, like how would Ben, young Ben, show up in this moment? And my work now, like I talk about this shoulder to shoulder player, coach, we're in this thing together type of role. I love the idea of just giving people an example. Like I talked about leadership. It's like you show people how you'd like them to work for you or how you'd like them to show up. I try and be an example and provide permission for people to also show up authentically.

Ben: 42:33

I don't have it figured out by any means.

Ben: 42:37

I am often performing, I'm often wearing a mask, I'm often trying to prove myself because, just like everyone else, I'm insecure.

Ben: 42:45

But like, even in this moment, having this conversation right now and talking through it, like hopefully it allows other people to see that like we are far more alike than we are different for sure, and everything or a lot of things in this world. I hate talking in absolutes, but a lot of things in this world are trying to make us believe that we're different or not. Inputs might be different, like where you live, how many children you have, the stress of your work it might be different, sure, like it's variable across population, but like the way that we experience the world is so similar. The sooner that you can recognize that, the more you can realize that it opens you up to be empathetic, understanding and maybe even like love everyone around you. And like I'm not going to say that the goal of the work that I do is to have people love each other, but, like, maybe that's a cool secondary benefit and if there's love in the world, you, like, don't need to prove yourself to anybody. Yeah.

Ben: 43:42

But I will finish all of that by saying like I don't have anything figured out. I don't have not proving myself figured out, I don't have showing up vulnerably and authentically as myself figured out. I just am trying really hard to check in with my body, to be aware with it, to be aware of how I'm feeling in a given moment, and then make a decision to get closer to the future that I say that I want, and that includes me being a vulnerable, impactful member of society.

Klara: 44:09

And I just want to conquer how we're so similar and how we're experiencing the world very similarly. One of the things that continuously find when I sign up for any new leadership program because I have this tendency to take some leadership classes every year is just a thing that I feel like I'm going to learn something new, I'm going to grow my strength, and usually I find that like bits and pieces. You know now almost 40, I like fancying the knobs, but I've done so much that I'm pretty no at core of who I am. So I'm kind of questioning the return on investment on some of these programs because you play sometimes tens of thousands of dollars for it. And eventually, the most valuable thing that I find, especially in, you know, this stage of the life and maybe the latest training I have signed up for is that, no matter the stage of our career and life, we all struggling with pretty much the same things.

Klara: 45:10

We all want to feel that we're creating something of value. We all want to have some sort of connection with the people that we have around us and the people that we want to work with. We all want to have opportunities for growth. You know, and that may look a little bit different for some versus the other, but in a big scheme of things, what else would I add there? I think we all just want to feel in some ways understood and that is a hard one, depending on which corporation you live in and you are in or which team you're on but I think, feeling that what you say matters. I think that, ultimately, is one of the key things that come across from all the groups I have participated in, and whether it was LGBTQ, you know, women, the next gen groups I have seen this across that every person in those groups. Those are kind of the key pillars that everyone struggles with, and I often punner we're trying to solve them in silos, so we almost create these other groups that we tend to cling to.

Ben: 46:26

But it's interesting I'm going to butcher this. There's a quote that's like the principles are few and the methods are many. Similar thing where it's like every new course or every new guru that I come across basically just repackaging the same sentiment. It's like we want impact, we want understanding, we want expansion and like, outside of those three things, it's like you can call them whatever you want, but we want to be able to change the world, or feel like we're changing the world, or at least the world around us. We want understanding from the people that we care most about, and maybe understanding of ourselves, and then expansion is just the ability to grow and progress in a direction of that thing that you want, that ideal future that's worth living.

Klara: 47:09

It's so much better than I did, I agree.

Ben: 47:13

This is what I talk about all day long. But, yeah, those three things are like part of an ideal life, part of an ideal future. And, to your point, it's like by siloing people and creating more niche ways to identify, it becomes even harder for people to recognize other group. Yeah, I talk often about nutrition because that's like a big part of the work that I do and it's like if you want to try to change the way that somebody views how they eat, it's so challenging. It's politics and religion, because people have tied their identity to what they decide to put in their mouth. It's very hard. Yeah, why?

Klara: 47:45

is this so hard? Because I hear it all the time Changing somebody's nutrition is like changing politics, and for me, politics is maybe because I'm from Czech. I don't subscribe to this traditional left and right, you know. I think it's both bogus. I just create my own set of beliefs, I just cherry-pick and this is what I think is right. You know, for America, based on the history and where I think the US should be heading but not many people in America seem to be that way and sort of the nutrition gets caught in this craziness of like the religion of politics. What is your view on it? Why do you think it's that way?

Ben: 48:25

I think to your point about like likening it to politics left and right, outside of the polar ends, like outside of the extreme actually probably very similar, not probably they're actually very similar. Yes, the goals are generally pretty similar In case with nutrition. The goal of your nutrition protocol should be able to, or should be to, grow and expand your life. It's life giving fuel. You are made of the food that you eat Like. It is the thing that not only sustains you but allows you to express yourself in like the purest form. And I think to your point. You hit the nail right on the head. From my perspective, it's like people have either decided that they are right or that they are wrong, or that they are everyone who chooses to not eat the way that they eat or, in the same way, not believe the same the way that they believe is wrong, and maybe just deciding that no one is right and wrong. Everyone is just making the decision that best serves them. And if that were true, then I could show up and eat the way that I want to eat and they could show up and eat the way that they want to eat, and we could still be friends, we could still have a relationship and also I would be accepting or receptive to their opinion and their view and I could probably learn something.

Ben: 49:36

I've tried all the nutrition protocols. I've done it all. If I'm going to coach it, I'm going to try it. I've tried every single one and the way that I eat is I eat nutrient dense whole food. If it grew in the ground or it had a face, I'm probably okay putting it in my mouth. I definitely eat everything else also, no food is off limits. I eat plants, animals, all the stuff. I think once you understand that, like everything matters just not that much, it's a much easier way to navigate the world.

Ben: 50:04

People that I work with, we talk about living in the gray. The two ends are black and white. It's ugly out there. I want to be in the gray and so I approach nutrition the same way no one's right, no one's wrong.

Ben: 50:17

So on the nutrition point, I don't prescribe nutrition. I don't do meal plans. I don't do any of that. We based on preference. So if you like, if you don't like a thing, you're not going to eat it. So I work with a client individually and it's like hey, what are you going to eat? How are you currently eating. Now let's build a program that evolves what you're currently doing, so it's just a better version of that, because that's the thing that's going to last. Far too often and this is not just in training or nutrition or mindset work it's like people try and fit their life to a protocol, and I think that the real solution is fitting a protocol to your life or life isn't going to change to do your new workout program, but if you can supplement your life with a workout program that is accessible and simple and sustainable, then you win, because if the mechanisms by which you're trying to achieve your results are not sustainable, then I hate to break it to you, but the results themselves, they are not sustainable. Yeah.

Ben: 51:15

You see this crash, dieting world or the. You know there are some groups and fitness that do some pretty wild shit and they wonder why people don't have lifetime results. I'm going to go even farther with this. It's my new favorite talking point. But Simon Sinek popularized this finite and infinite game.

Klara: 51:38

I have the book, actually, yes.

Ben: 51:40

I'm literally looking at the book right now. It's a four, so I'll describe it for the people listening. But a finite game is a game like a sports game, where there are people playing, they know they're playing, they know the other team is playing, there's a defined set of rules, everybody knows the rules, they got the rules beforehand, they know how to play and there is a winner. At the end of the game, when time runs out, somebody will win and somebody will lose. That's a finite game. The other type of game is an infinite game. We're like yeah, I know I'm playing and I know that Claire is playing, but there are other people playing and I don't even know where they are. They're somewhere, but they're also playing this game.

Ben: 52:13

I'm not sure of the rules. She's not either. Somebody might be, but it's definitely not me. I don't know the rules and there's no end. Nobody wins, nobody loses. Infinite game. There is no winner and the goal of the game is just to keep playing the game. And I think far too often people apply the structure and the rules of these finite games to ones that are infinite, and so things like building a business, things like a relationship, things like navigating wellness journey, those are infinite games. You don't win wellness, you don't win business, you definitely don't win a marriage.

Klara: 52:48

I'm sure there would be some people that would argue that they can.

Ben: 52:52

I wouldn't want to be a part of that marriage. We've got this idea that there has to be a winner. Somebody is wrong. Or is it like I get to the place where I don't have to worry about my wellness anymore? That's not the case. You play the wellness game. You just get to keep playing it. How sick is that? And so I'm convinced that if we were just a little bit more gray to bring it back, if we were a little more gray in our approach, open to different modalities, less dogmatic about how we approach not only nutrition but the rest of our wellness and maybe even our politics, we might have a better existence.

Ben: 53:28

Yeah, I agree I don't know, I don't have anything figured out. These are just ideas.

Klara: 53:33

I mean especially just on the nutrition. I 100% agree. Even through my journey, I've gone through many different things as well. I must have subscribed to keto. Although I don't measure things now, I figured a set of foods that work for me, an efficient way to cook it and automate it, so I don't have to think about what I'm going to eat, because that's the hardest part of the day for me thinking about what I'm going to cook. So it just makes things effective and efficient.

Klara: 54:04

But at some point I was really strict on keto. I measured things and I did the finger pricking with the keto measuring and I did all of the fasting, because really, if you want to get to ketosis, the best way is to fast for four days and you will get to ketosis. And then I end up frustrated because I'm not in ketosis enough, as I expected it myself to be. And then I keep cutting and cutting and trimming down to things to. I almost get obsessed with food, which is a nonproductive mindset. And then I end up subscribing to this continuous glucose monitor. There are so many of them now in the market. So I did a three-month trial and really what I figured out if you eat a lot of different shit, with moderation, it's fine. You're going to be OK and your body is in less stress that if I'm trying to control my diet with the six ingredients that aren't supposed to spike glucose. But my glucose is spiking just from the stress of how much I'm trying to control the food and that I'm not in the ketosis.

Ben: 55:07

I don't wear wearables. All the wearables are going to hate me. So I don't wear an Apple Watch. So I don't wear a Whoop. So I don't wear an O-Ring.

Ben: 55:14

Sorry for all of you guys, the stress of waking up and having to look at how recovered I am ruined my life. I would wake up after eight hours of sleep and it's like you're 1% recovered. My brain would explode. I'm like why I feel great and you're saying I'm not recovered? Or I'd wake up after 30 minutes of sleep. I'm like 100% recovery. I'm like I don't even know my own name. I can't do this To your point about the food thing, though.

Ben: 55:38

That gives me so much joy hearing you say that I look at nutrition as this incredible journey, just like all these other improvement journeys where you swing from one end to the other. It's often like, ok, I'm seeking out some sort of structure because I'm in chaos. I seek out the structure, I adhere really strictly to the structure and then I'm like, oh wait, maybe it wasn't that big a deal, it wasn't that important. And then often there's chaos that follows and you end up somewhere in the middle. But I love the idea of being anti-fragile. I love the idea of not having to really stress about it. I love the idea of following very loose parameters. It's like having a structure, but being willing and able to deviate is such a good thing. And isn't it freeing to know that you have keto in your back pocket? You're familiar, you know it well, but also you are comfortable doing another thing.

Klara: 56:35

Yeah, giving yourself the adaptability and flexibility if your body craves it, it's OK to have something else.

Ben: 56:44

It's literally also to the people listening who have been really strict with their nutrition.

Ben: 56:50

There's a lot of mental gymnastics happening where you disregard your feelings, which I think in some instances are incredibly valuable, like if you're training to be the best in the world at your sport. Training is not always going to feel good, your nutrition is not always going to feel good, your sleep is not always going to be great. There's going to be tons of moments or exposure to discomfort, and that's OK. But for the general population person who's interested in wellness or just interested in being better, just trying a little harder, getting really in touch with your body and learning what hunger might feel like or learning what a craving might mean for you, like that's such a cool progression from the coaching perspective where it's like, ok, you can sit there and be like oh wait, my body's telling me I need more carbohydrates. I'm going to give it the carbohydrates that it wants, and then I'm going to feel incredible yeah, that's the coolest thing of all time. And then, like I'm like holy shit, I was aware of my body. I listened. This time I responded in a way that was wildly productive. I'm probably better able to relate to my partner. I'm a better parent to my dog, I'm more effective in the gym and I'm probably also not craving that thing anymore.

Ben: 58:11

People always ask me, ben, what are your cheat meals? When you cheat, when you really blow it out, what do you do? And this is coming from a dude who I had an eating disorder for the better half of my teens and into my 20s. I still struggle with binge eating. Like I said, I don't have anything figured out. Like we're doing this together. I have binge eating disorder. I deal with that now. Even it is so cool to not have a cheat meal. No foods are off limits. Like I have the worst relationship with food or I had the worst relationship with food. I have no cheat meals. If I want a thing, I eat that thing and then I move on to the next meal. And when I do have a meal that is probably not so ideal, I ensure that the next time I sit down to eat I have a plate that's full of animal-based protein leeky green vegetables, usually some fruit, and then a really high-quality starch potatoes or rice.

Ben: 58:59

Every time, and through experience, I think a lot of people's apprehension around food is like a fear of the unknown or like experienced it. I could say like, maybe from your keto perspective, you're like, oh my God, if I don't eat keto, it's all gonna fall apart. But then you don't eat keto and you realize that like nothing fell apart. It's been really special and really cool to just like have that awareness and now step into the ability of being able to incorporate all types of foods into my diet and into my life. And for the person who's listening that's like, oh my God, I could never do that. I'm just gonna say it's okay.

Ben: 59:31

The more time you spend in your body and out of your head, the better chance you stand at navigating anything that's potentially stressful. But I would urge everyone, if they're really struggling, to enlist the help of support, and that could be a partner, a friend, a coach, a therapist, a mentor, a gym community, whatever it is. I don't do anything alone. You don't have to either. I'm not just saying that because I'm a coach, but you don't have to do it alone, that's it.

Klara: 59:56

Yeah, I think it's important to have the rent people around you to support you with whatever the goals are right and find, hopefully the best person you can in the circle that have that knowledge and that you can sort of bounce off ideas around to see what works for you right, and that's again with everything workouts, nutrition and just experiment. And I do want to go a little bit back, ben, because I think we can talk for hours and we probably will rent a little bit over.

Ben: 1:00:29

I'm just a constant stream of consciousness, so like, just bring me back on track.

Klara: 1:00:33

I want to go back still a little bit to what you shared in this identity crisis that is associated, obviously, with your military career. I think it's a lot the same with what athletes go through Obviously not to such degree because I have never envisioned what it is to put my life in danger for a country or someone else, so it must be just another level. But one of the things actually of this podcast which I haven't even realized how much of that feeling I had still had left, and there was more than a decade After finishing my tennis career. I literally went through all five stages of grief and I felt I had dealt with it. And then I started podcasting and I started choking, talking to the people around it, and then I started oh my God, everybody goes through this same thing. Everybody gets these identity crisis. I think just some are more than others and some go through them earlier in life than others.

Klara: 1:01:35

And so how is that for you? What do you think created the biggest complexities, shifting from that military structure to life, to kind of this infinite? Well, it is finite, we're gonna die at some point but I just find that having the structure, even tennis, was a little bit different. And now I was swimming in the world and it was hard to measure whether I'm winning or losing. So how have you dealt with it? Anything you wanna share from that experience?

Ben: 1:02:09

I think to your point, like having the structure for my entire life. You asked about my childhood, but growing up in my childhood how my parents were very involved. They were the ones that decided what I do, when I do it, how I do it. They were in charge and then I joined the military, which is just like a more extreme version of that Helicopter parents on steroids and there's like actual consequences and then so leaving the military. As a 28 year old guy, I felt like I was a 12 year old boy when I left the army.

Ben: 1:02:40

Even more. I didn't really ever build any true self-confidence. I was confident in my ability to perform on the field or like on the ice, as a sport person, as an athlete. I was confident in my ability to show up and lead as an army officer, not only because, like I was effective there, but because I was told that, like you are the leader, go lead, make the decisions, because that's your job. We pay you to do that, captain. Like go do it.

Ben: 1:03:06

And I got out into the civilian world and there was no structure, there was nobody telling me what to do and there was also nobody telling me that I was good at my job and I had no self-confidence. I didn't trust in my own abilities. I didn't trust that I could make a decision. I didn't trust that I was worthy of existing in the world. I felt like I was a burden. I felt like I was in the way and that was getting reinforced not only by me not being able to find employment, or me like ending a relationship, or me like not having any money to pay my rent, like there were all these things that were telling me I was a piece of shit and I didn't have the requisite, like skills to name how I was feeling and then like, act in an effective way. And so for me it was really like I keep going back to self-confidence, or my self-confidence about how I showed up in the world and I just I'm still working on building it, but every day it's like I'm checking in and looking at like, what were the things today that proved to me that I am valuable? What were the things today that proved to me that I have use in another person's life?

Ben: 1:04:09

You know there's a whole series of check-ins that I do every single day and it's no coincidence that I found coaching. It allows me the opportunity to be useful for somebody else. It allows me the opportunity to have flow in the same way that I did in the military. It provides the opportunity for me to actually grow and evolve, and I'm sure that the work that you do now, post-tennis, is the same or similar to you, because you're a beacon of what it could be for people transitioning. I know many people don't ever find that Any people who leave sport or leave the military. They never find that thing. So their life doesn't provide the fulfillment or the connection that the military did or that sport did. I'm not naive to that, I know that I'm incredibly lucky.

Klara: 1:04:56

Yeah, I mean it's really hard. I have to admit that. Still, the feelings that I have felt, the power of emotions when you're on the court and whether you win or lose I don't think that's a feeling that I have found a way how to replicate. I always say the closest to it is when you're a team and you create a solution that works great and you kind of grow the business and it creates a value for consumers, the brand and the partners and it sort of is this holistic win that you can be proud of. So it's kind of the closest I have gotten to that feeling. But it's still not the same.

Klara: 1:05:33

And so I wonder how much we end up being even addicted to the emotions because you have these highs and lows and kind of the understanding of performance and non-performance in the athletic world. But really in military it's another level because non-performance could literally cost you and your team a life, right. So that's just another level. So just thinking how you channel that into your normal life, kind of it seems like the life and death mindset. And well, it's not really life and death. You know, in life it's okay to be mediocre in some things and you will find ways that you're good at, but just that path and time, whatever it takes, that's a struggle.

Ben: 1:06:23

Yeah, I mean it's been very interesting. I will admit that the emotions I felt in sport are far and away the emotions. If I think about the most emotional times in my life, they're moments from sport not from military.

Ben: 1:06:39

I think, the people who are effective in their work in the military are really good at detaching themselves from what's happening. Well, I often said the biggest compliment to me was when someone would be like, oh you're in the army, what? Like no way. That's the greatest compliment I could ever receive, because I was able to separate my actual life outside of the army with what happened while I was in uniform. And I think to your point about the transition from sport into life and how, like working in corporate America or whatever, isn't the same, it's not. The army was actually a nice buffer for me to have to feel the pain of transitioning out of sports, and so the army provided a buffer that was similar, similar. There was a team aspect, there was a mission important, we were trying to win, whatever that means, and it allowed me to stave off the effects of no longer getting to compete in sport anymore. I was able to channel my competitive nature into the physical aspects of training for war, which was super fun.

Ben: 1:07:43

But if I think about the things that make me emotional now my time as an athlete or even more this is kind of silly. But I don't really emote that well, I don't really know how to cry. I don't understand how that happens, but if I see a sports triumph, water works. If I watch the Olympics or like the Ryder Cup is all things, when I watch the Ryder Cup and somebody sinks that putt to win the match, I'm going to be sobbing like a baby and I don't even know why that is. I don't know why it just happens every time and I think it's because I have lived that I know what it feels like to win. I know what it feels like to score the goal, to win the state championship. I know that feeling. And so a very interesting thing where it's like maybe the army was more like just a job for me, provided an opportunity for competition that allowed me to kind of stave off the effects of my transition out of athletics.

Klara: 1:08:35

Yeah, you are so active, you require physical ability and a lot of the skills actually that you probably have learned through athletics are beneficial in an army and you have obviously the structure around it. So, going through that and building confidence, I want to dive a little bit on the mental models. You mentioned cold plans. You mentioned psychedelics, obviously working out as a way to check in with your body. What are some of the things you want to dive into next then?

Ben: 1:09:08

Yeah, so breathwork has been the most valuable tool that I've implemented in my own transition. Talking about therapies and exposure therapy or even contrast therapy I know it's incredibly popular right now, but hot and cold is the classic contrast. I love the contrast of control, and that would be between active and passive. So training or mindfulness, meditation or breathwork is an active control. You, clara, are in control of your experience there. You're the driver. Nobody's going to do it. Unless you do it, nobody's going to show up to the gym for you. Nobody's going to sit you down and have you meditate. Nobody's going to do that. On the other side, you have some passive control options which might be like psychedelics where, like, you ingest the medicine and it happens to you. Or even like cold exposure you get in the tub and the experience happens to you. All you have to do is show up. I love contrasting those two things. So my favorite at the moment is breath work and cold. It doesn't make the cold any easier.

Ben: 1:10:08

My issue with the hot and cold contrast, just from like a psychological perspective, is the cold often becomes a break or like rest from the heat, and I don't want that. I want it to be hard, I want it to be challenging. I want it to be a thing that you need to get over because in turn you'll build self-confidence. And again, for me, more than just autonomic nervous system regulation, I am most concerned with my ability to build confidence and to trust myself and to like follow through when I don't want to do that hard thing, and so that'll continue to be my tool. I have an ice bath just outside my door here. I did one this morning, I'll probably do one later tonight, but that is my tool, and in moments of greatest activation I use it as an opportunity to like snap back into my body and like ultimately just take control of my experience.

Ben: 1:11:00

I'm sure you're familiar with Freud, but like the Freudian ideology or the idea that like you are the sum total of all of your experiences and like the Freud shows up as you are today because of the life that you've lived up until this point, that's great.

Ben: 1:11:13

I love that there's this guy, alfred Adler, who like expounds upon this idea that like, yeah, of course you are the sum total of your lived experience, like duh, but also, regardless of what that's been, you have the opportunity and the ability to decide a future worth living and take the next right, active step in the direction of that future, and that's been wildly helpful for me as a dude who's just generally stressed out and anxious all the time. It's like yo, I have all these tools, they're available to me. I probably don't want to leverage them in this moment, but I'm just going to. I'm going to do it anyway, I'm going to follow through, I'm going to take the active steps that I know I need to take to get closer to that future that I decided that I want to live, and most often that looks like breathwork and rice for me.

Klara: 1:11:58

So what's your protocol? Actually, I'm curious. I've been cold plunging now for about one half months. I do it first thing in the morning and I find it's fantastic way to start your day. And every morning I wonder. When I wake up I was like, oh my gosh, am I really going to do this? And somehow within me, getting a cup of coffee and drinking a few sips, I was like, okay, I'm ready, I'm doing this. And then there is something calming, although it's not as powerful as it used to be one and a half months ago. So I'm actually a little bit missed that first week when you start cold plunging. I don't know if you remember this alertness and awareness and your body so thrilled that it survived to where it's almost just jumping out of your own skin, and I love that feeling, and so I don't get that as much anymore. Like it's a different feeling now. But how do you think about cold plunging as a tool?

Ben: 1:12:58

Yeah. So I love it for like a let's wake up and get active for the day. I actually use it most often at the evening like a down regulation tool. I've noticed generally for people who are higher, strong, more anxious, more sympathetic in their day, it can work as a really cool opportunity to like calm down. For people who are calmer, more regulated, more parasympathetic, it's a really cool tool to get like ramped up. Great novelty or variance in my protocols. I do different times a day, different durations, different temperatures. I try and vary it as frequently as possible just so that it's always novel and in doing that I'm able to make the experience new and scary most of the time and like that's the part I'm after, like there are layers to it, right, like physiologically it's like helps you recover. Yes.

Ben: 1:13:48

Well, that's awesome. It bolsters your immune system. Sick, we love that. Like psychologically, or more even physiologically. It's like you know you get all these neurotransmitters that are activated dopamine, norepinephrine, adrenaline, maybe even some oxytocin or some serotonin, depending on how you do it. I love being in a tub with ice or the weight of the ice is on top of you, like that just feels good, it's like a hug.

Ben: 1:14:12

But then, even more, the parts that I'm most concerned about. Like I said, it's just like doing a thing that's hard. I'm not going to say people are soft, but people don't often actively seek opportunities to do really hard things. And my favorite part about the ice is that you get this opportunity to do a thing that's really hard, like it's really hard. I've been doing it for 10 years. It's really hard and you're not going to die. You're definitely not, like for sure. You're not going to die, so you can do it. Like everybody can do it and that's the coolest part. And so, going back to that earliest point, or one of the earlier points about how our experiences are all very similar and how, like, we're living the same thing together and we're all in this together, I finished most of my coaching sessions. I only do a couple of weeks. I finished most of my coaching sessions by doing an ice bath, with the person Dispating, so it's a way to just like you know. One last day, one last draw, we're in this together.

Ben: 1:15:06

Like I believe in you, I believe in myself, I believe in us. Like, let's go have a great day. So I tour with musicians most of the year Everybody I tour with we have a nice bath. It's on tour with us. We end almost every day with an ice bath and then we share a family meal afterwards. It's just become the practice. That's how I do it in my life. So like it's seven o'clock here, I've had a busy day all day, so I'm going to train tonight, I'll do an ice bath and then I'll have not a team dinner or family dinner, but a solo dinner and use it as an opportunity to just check in with myself, note how my day went, how I was able to be impactful, and then hopefully find some fulfillment in that and then move on.

Klara: 1:15:47

I love it. Thank you, ben, and so, knowing we're actually a little bit over and you have still worked at an ice bath and dinner ahead. No we're good.

Klara: 1:15:56

Anything else we should talk about regarding finding confidence and combining, I guess, this mental stability, fitness, health, getting into the space of flow, because I think that's a lot of what musicians need to get into right. They're performers, so when I think about being on a stage, I mean that's a physically demanding, mentally demanding activity. So what are some of the main tips you would want to people take away from this conversation? Because I also find it similarly, actually, when I'm presenting to a big group of important people like CO and their leadership team, I've created my protocols that I've kind of adopted, but I've taken some from tennis of like, how do I prep for the presentation and what does my day look like and how do I adjust my day? What are my presentations at 10 in the morning or whether it's at 5 pm, right, what level of energy I need to have? So what are some of the main things that you have seen work? If you can categorize it, I don't know, maybe it's very personal still.

Ben: 1:17:03

It's far more general, generalize everything, because I don't think anything applies to everyone. But I think just being curious about what might interest you, like just in terms of getting into flow state. It's like things that get me into flow are the things that I care most about. That's where I'm present, that's where I'm grounded, that's where I'm most effective, and so it's like being curious about what might interest you and then getting exposure and experience doing a thing a certain way. And so because you have a baseline we talked about baselines very early on because you have a baseline, you're able to deviate from the baseline. It's like what's nutrition? Like I'm asking them to catalog everything that they're eating, and then, because we know where we are, we can change, we can correct. If you don't know where you are, you can't make a plan. So, in terms of like working with a musician or even myself, it's like I need to take account of how I show up now, like what are the inputs? Is this thing working for me? If it's not, then I'm going to adjust. It is, I think, the coolest thing to do. You talked about, like, setting up a system.

Ben: 1:18:10

I call it a ritual, but it's like I ritualize my life If you have a ritual, I don't care what the ritual is, I just care that you're able to repeat it. That's what I talk about with my clients. Like I'm interested in the repeat ritual and the coolest part about ritualizing stuff is you have the option to either be fully present in the moment or you can turn your brain off and not be present, and there's value in both. But if I have a ritual and I don't need to be present, then I can dedicate that mental and emotional energy to another thing that might be scary, or I can be totally present and kind of remove the world from it.

Ben: 1:18:44

And so I play around with ritual before a show, before the guys I work with go on stage. It's always the same Every time. There's no decision fatigue, they don't even have to think about it, and I often don't even check in. Are they present or not? Like we're there, we're just doing the things. It's step one, then step two, then step three, then step four, then step five At step 71, they step on stage and like it's like that every time. So the brain like either turn on all the way or can turn off completely, depending on, like, how they're feeling, and sometimes one is more valuable than the other. I'm very adamant about like post flow experience checking in. There's a theme here I think I've said it probably 400 times but like checking in, like just taking note of how you feel how the thing, how it could possibly go better, those are really cool things to check in about and then from there you can make adjustments to the ritual if needed.

Klara: 1:19:39

Do you write it out or do you suggest people to write out after important experience, can the check ins and taking a mental account of it?

Ben: 1:19:48

So the frequency of our ritual, like a touring musician plays a show, they'll play 10 shows in two weeks. So it's like we get a lot of exposure. My life right, the things that I do that are most important to me. I coach a person or a group of people nearly every day, so I get the feedback loop is so fast, so like I don't at this point need to write it down. I'm so familiar with the ritual. It's like oh, okay, that didn't go well, how can I adjust Tomorrow? I try to make the adjustment. Oh, it didn't go great. Okay, well, I can revert back or I can continue pushing forward.

Ben: 1:20:23

For the like lay person who, like, might not get as much exposure. It's so important to write down. There's so much learning that happens through writing that it's not just putting it on the page. You see it after you write it, you think it through, your brain acts as if it's speaking it like there's so many layers of learning that happen by writing. Yes, but I would challenge you after you write it down, you don't need to reference it. Write it down, let it go out into the ether and then next time.

Ben: 1:20:52

I mean, if you need to reference it, sure, but like, I have a journaling practice that I do every day and it incorporates a brain dump and a letter to myself and a whole bunch of other stuff and I never go back. Now it's out, the important stuff will stick, the other stuff won't. And then just the next time I show up to execute, I just make adjustments or I don't. But that's just my own personal thing. And for the guys for, like, the people I work with, they're probably not even thinking about any of it, like because I'm the guy that takes care of that, and so this is a really cool thing if it feels super overwhelming and it's. The help of a coach is so incredibly valuable. I have so many coaches. I have a therapist, I have a business coach, I have a relationship coach. I have all these people that are helping me manage my life, because I don't want to think about it all, but with them we're thinking about it. I think having assistants or having help is so valuable.

Klara: 1:21:42

Yeah, and I was just reflecting a lot on the writing because I used to write things down after tennis matches or sometimes in practices. I would have even in journaling and I don't think I ever went back, but it was a good way to just clarify how you felt during the match. So I'm just brainstorming whether it's something I want to implement in now my business or corporate life, because I haven't done it specifically about performance when you're presenting or in the corporate setting. So that just made me think about maybe a new tool to try and test out. I do have journaling. That I do typically in the morning, so I have my morning protocol. Like Saturday now has been cold plunge. Then I saw my meditation pillow outside. I do about five to 10 minute meditation and then I just take a notebook and I just write whatever I feel like writing sort of. You probably know a few journal anybody who's your nose. Sometimes it's crazy things that come on the page. It was like what?

Ben: 1:22:42

I do the morning journaling, I do a stream of consciousness, I have some prompts that I rotate through, but my favorite right now is just a brain dump before bed. I know a lot of people listening, especially high performers. You get into bed and that's when your brain turns on, so probably the first moment of quiet you've had since you woke up and it's like, oh God, now there's all those things that I was supposed to do or whatever it is, all those conversations I need to have, and doing a brain dump before bed has been a really nice way for me to get everything that's swirling around in here out on paper. And whether I go back the same way like performance journaling, whether I go back and look at it doesn't matter. It's just now, I don't have to remember it. So there's a little bit of like calm that happens because I don't need to worry about it anymore.

Ben: 1:23:24

It's on paper. If I need to look at it again, I can go back and look at it. That's been the biggest asset for me in falling asleep and right now, for me in my own wellness journey, sleep is my main priority. So getting high quality sleep, restful sleep that sets me up for an incredible day ahead. It's not my main priority, it's not training, it's not my nutrition, it's not any of that, it's just getting good sleep.

Klara: 1:23:47

Yeah, I think that's a great one. I struggle with it myself. I think I have now a good routine, but it took me forever to fine tune and I think it's always up and down right Depending on just where you are in life and what stage you're going through. I think it's impossible to have fantastic sleep all the time. But I agree, Ben. Thank you so much for the conversation. We just last couple of closing questions to somewhat tie off on what you were just mentioning. There's a lot of things happening in the world. You know, information coming at us from all sides at all times, hard to filter through, what is true and what isn't true, or what we want to take in for ourselves. What would you suggest people to be doing more of or less of? What would you want to inspire them to be doing more of or less of?

Ben: 1:24:37

More creating, less consuming. Just because information is available doesn't mean that it's good or useful. And it goes back to my earlier point about just getting really clear about what you want and then discerning what is valuable to that mission, and then everything else can go away. I know again very broad Like. I'm not going to tell you what to do, but like there's a thing that you're on this earth to do and it's probably not scrolling on Instagram for 15 hours a day, like that's probably not it. And you talked about like finite, like, while the games are infinite, like your existence here is finite, just is, and I think far too many people, myself included, are so interested in comparison and learning about how they're not worthy or how they're not enough or how they're not doing things right. This is me talking to me, and I'm committed to creating some stuff that's really worthwhile.

Ben: 1:25:34

And one of the things that I think about often professionally, I'm like I just want to do really cool things with really cool people, and that only happens when I'm in the space to create, and so if that feels unfamiliar, feels scary or feels like something that's not accessible or not possible for you, I challenge you to look deeper at that we all have opportunities for creation. That could be in growing a relationship or, you know, building the business, or even like painting the picture, whatever it is. But I think people need to create far more than they consume and I know there's been periods in my life where that has been flipped and, just like the moments where I neglected my physical health, those have been the moments where I've been in the most amount of chaos. So that thing you want to do, just do it Like, make it easy, just do it.

Klara: 1:26:21

Thank you so much, Ben, and anyone who wants to get in touch with you. Maybe you'll learn about your app. I'll add resources to the episode notes, but what is the best way to reach you?

Ben: 1:26:32

Yeah, so my Instagram and my TikTok. My social medias are Ben V Smith, b-e-n-v-e-s-m-i-t-h. My website is benvsmithcom, and then the app is called Train With Ben at trainwithbenapp, and it is an easy introduction to resistance training. It's the training program that I do primarily, which is on there. There's also a track called the Foundations Programs there in gym with equipment at home, with equipment at home, with no equipment, just body weight only.

Ben: 1:27:01

There's mobility programs. There's breathing protocols on there and a practical application of how to integrate them into your life, and then also there's a nutrition course on there to educate you on how to maybe choose foods that might be most valuable for you. Like I said, I don't prescribe nutrition. My hope is to educate and then allow you to take ownership of that, because it's so important and, like we talked about, it is something that people identify with so strongly. Yeah, I'm very excited to do more public facing stuff like this. I'm very excited to impact people and I'm really thankful that you've given me the opportunity to just talk at you for an hour and a half.

Klara: 1:27:35

Thank you, ben. It's been a pleasure and if you have a trip to Austin, please let me know what that's to be your person, if you enjoyed this episode.

Klara: 1:27:40

I want to ask you to please do two things that would help me greatly. One, please consider leaving a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or any other podcasting platform that you use to listen to this episode. Two, please share this podcast with a friend who you believe might enjoy it as well. It is a great way to remind someone you care about them by sharing a conversation they might be interested in. Thank you for listening.