89. Jurgen Arts︱From Court to CFO: Adaptability, AI & the Future of Telco Networks

Want a front-row seat to how a global CFO blends tennis-honed grit with people-first leadership to rethink telecom’s future? In this episode, Klara Jagosova sits down with Jurgen Arts, Vice President & CFO for Market Area Europe & Latin America at Ericsson, who brings nearly three decades of experience leading M&A, finance transformation, and cross-regional teams.

We trace Jurgen’s path from an introverted Dutch tennis kid to a global leader known for transparency, curiosity, and balance — in business and in life. He shares how authenticity builds trust, how honesty early in a role prevents friction later, and how sports resilience fuels strategic decision-making.

We explore:
• How culture shapes leadership across regions
• M&A lessons from integrating Cradlepoint and Vonage
• The evolving role of AI as a practical co-pilot
• Building connected global teams and financial agility
• 5G network APIs and the shift to pay-per-use models
• Continuous learning, mentorship, and curiosity as long-term success drivers

🎾 Plus: Jurgen’s reflections on cooking, running, padel, golf, and inspiring his two sons to carry forward the family’s love for tennis.

Connect with Jurgen on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jurgen-arts-ba808a3/

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Chapters

• 0:00 AI, Telecom, And Platform Vision
• 1:43 Host Intro And Guest Background
• 5:41 From Tennis Courts To Global Finance
• 12:05 Grit, Independence, And Early Sport Lessons
• 19:25 Switching Sports And Finding Balance
• 23:44 Cooking, Family, And Life Abroad
• 27:14 Career Start, SAP, And Joining Ericsson
• 33:01 Career Growth Without A Master Plan
• 38:29 Mentors, Challenge, And Honest Feedback
• 42:06 Culture Eats Strategy: Working Across Countries
• 51:20 Finance Beyond Numbers: Leading Indicators
• 58:10 Transparency, Due Diligence, And Team Trust
• 1:04:09 M&A Realities: Cradlepoint And Integration
• 1:12:40 Change Management And Clear Choices
• 1:16:10 Leadership Principles And Team Chemistry
• 1:22:02 Spotting Talent And The Value Of Presence

Transcript

Jurgen Arts: 0:00

AI is definitely a big thing happening, right? Not only in telecom, I think in the world. I'm trying to spend quite a bit of time understanding AI, playing around with it, trying to make use of AI as much as I can in whatever is on my agenda. And then maybe a bit to telecom, as you know, and in Ericsson we're making a big now into enterprise, but also into this network platform where uh all the great functionality of 5G can actually be consumed in the form of APIs. That's why we acquired Volch as well, where we created Taduna. And I think that's super important, not only for us in Ericsson, but for the telecom industry as a whole. Something has been standing out in telecom, it's the flat revenue line, right? All the companies, us as providers like Ericsson and uh ears, but also the operators like AT&T and others in all these years, in the last two or three decades, we haven't seen our revenues grow in spite of all this great technology with 4G, 5G in the future 6G that we are bringing to the market, where revenues have been fledged, and we've seen the value being generated in stock price and earnings by um over-the-top players, retailers. So that is the game that we, at least in our side, together with our operator customers, would like to change, right? And getting away from this the kind of monthly billing in the consumer space, but also an enterprise is still a an industry that's based on a monthly bill, get much more pay per use. So changing that way that telecom is consumed and paid for. That's a big bad now from Ericsson, but it goes way beyond Ericsson, right? It goes for the industry.

Klara Jagosova: 1:43

Hello, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the Grand Slam Journey podcast, where we explore the intersection of sports, business, technology, and leadership. My guest today is Jurgen Arts, Vice President and CFO for Market Area Europe and Latin America at Ericsson. Over nearly three decades with Ericsson, Jürgen has held senior global finance leadership roles, including VP integration for the Varnage and Cradle Point acquisitions, and CFO for North America and Latin America. We talk about leading through change, building global teams, and how sports shaped resilience and adaptability in business. Originally from the Netherlands, Jürgen's journey from the tennis court to the corporate boardroom is truly inspiring. And he's even passed that passion for tennis onto his two sons. This podcast is fully self-produced. So if you enjoyed this conversation, please subscribe, leave a review, or share with someone you believe may enjoy it as well. This episode is also available in video version on the Grand Slam Journey YouTube channel. This is your host, Klara Jagosova. Thank you for tuning in and enjoy the listen. Hello, you're again. Welcome to the Grand Slam Journey Podcast. So great to have you.

Jurgen Arts: 3:05

Hey Clara, well, great honor to be here on your uh Grand Slam Journey. Thanks for having me.

Klara Jagosova: 3:12

Of course, you are actually the perfect guest for my podcast when I have been creating this mission, it seems now a few years back, maybe four or five years ago. It was with few goals. One, obviously, talk to impressive athletes, and you have been one, you play tennis, that have since then created an amazing journey for you, corporate America, being the VP and CFO in many different markets, currently the market area, Europe, Middle East, and Africa. So I'm sure there's a lot of dynamic, even just in that role. I'm curious to dive into that. And number two, I want to start straight up with I always wanted to shine a light on people who had positive influence on me personally and my current trajectory. And uh I do still remember when I had an interview with you for one of the leadership advisory roles that I've been privileged to land with a talented group of four other individuals that became my close friends actually ever since.

Jurgen Arts: 4:13

Yeah.

Klara Jagosova: 4:14

I'm quite confident you said yes to me. So thank you for that support and actually believing me and helping me be part of the team. And so with that, I'm just gonna pause. And I know you have had again excellent career through many different ups and downs as the telecom industry has gone through overall. But um, I want to give you an opportunity to introduce yourself. Anything else you would like listeners to know about you and your background before we dive into all of that.

Jurgen Arts: 4:45

Whoa, uh, that was a pretty broad introduction already, but let me get there. But I still I still, since you started with your uh your journey and how you started this uh Grand Slam uh podcast, I uh I still remember that moment, and I remember myself thinking like, whoa, Clara, that's an uh courageous move. And uh I can only congratulate you. I mean, I've been digging a little bit into the past versions. I've followed you uh along the what is it, four or five years that you've been doing this. I think you have made a tremendous uh success out of that. I like courageousness, right? Maybe maybe we come to that as well. I always encourage people to be courageous and maybe do some things that you're not so comfortable with, but at the end, uh take you very far. So uh super happy to be here and uh congratulations to you as well for your little bit younger career, but also great things on that uh timeline already, Glad.

Klara Jagosova: 5:38

Thank you.

Jurgen Arts: 5:39

But let me get to the introduction. You said a lot already. I'm I'm Jürgen, I'm I'm Dutch, born uh 56 years ago in the Netherlands, then uh moved to uh to Spain for for work where I met my wife. So uh my wife Anna from Madrid, a beautiful Spanish wife, got married in Madrid, where two sons were both born in Madrid. But then we started to uh move around quite a bit. We left Madrid for Chile, five years in Chile for work, and then after five years in Chile, nine years in the US, and now since two years back in Madrid. And um have been uh most of my career at Ericsson, as you know, 29 years right now, mostly in finance roles, so regional CFO roles. I've been lucky, I think, to uh be at a great company, meet great people, and have had the opportunity to know three different continents, four different countries to live in. So very uh blessed, I feel, by the experience I've had. I think let's leave it there as an introduction and then we can deep dive in any of those uh experiences or uh cultures or countries.

Klara Jagosova: 6:41

Love that. And definitely want to dive into the intercultural and kind of world perspective that you bring in, and not just being uh from Netherlands, but also as you moved around and obviously the nature of Ericsson's global business as well. And before we dive there, just curious what was your upbringing like? I am always curious to hear about my guests, what led them to some of the initial passions in their upbringing. I know it started with sports for you, tennis. And then anything else that you see influenced you towards the business, technology, perhaps CFO? Was there an influence early on in your life that you see pulled you towards those kind of roles later on?

Jurgen Arts: 7:28

Yeah, maybe. Uh my upbring was uh well I was born in in Nijmegen, a town in the east of the Netherlands. The Netherlands is a very small country, so east-west, it's anyway uh close by. But um small town, uh small family. I'm I'm only child, so I don't have siblings, so it's just my parents and and myself, and my parents ran an uh a family business uh next door a house, actually. So I think we've had great years business-wise, uh less great years. I think already very young I learned to be to be very rich in the good years, but also to be very modest and poor in the worst years, and that always stick with me, right? You need to know to adapt to the circumstances, and uh life life goes with that as well. Got into uh sports tennis. My parents were tennis players in the Netherlands. You have this club tennis, so my parents very much in the weekends went uh to play tennis with friends, and then I started on this uh tennis walls that you had on the clubs, just you playing, then my parents supported me to classes, got into tennis, tried some other sports as well. I was probably lucky in that eastern part of the Netherlands. We had some hills. My parents also went skiing every now and then. I was for Dutch meanings, I was actually better in skiing than tennis, I think, at those years. So we uh made it to the the Dutch national team of my age skiing, and then uh just to give you an idea, it's it's nothing compared to the bigger countries, right? Like Germany or Switzerland or Austria. We had our uh Dutch championships, we went once a year, we went to Austria at our national championships after a local team had finished their local competition, and then probably all winners ended some 10-20 seconds slower than the winner of the local teams. But then the Netherlands they they wanted to catch up with that huge gap they had of level and uh started in um a school in Austria at that time. So I was invited to move there, but the price tag was just super, super high. So my uh my parents reminded me that I I love tennis as well. So it was tennis from that moment onwards that uh got my passion and probably a lot of dedication. And yeah, I've played tennis for uh many, many years when I was young. First club tennis, I got into a tennis academy as well in the Netherlands, and then you have a nice group of friends and peers you train with. So you go to those ages of I don't know what it was, maybe 14, 15, where you really take it a bit more serious and you notice that the more you put into it, the better your results. So but since my parents were kind of running their business, it was not like today, right? Where I always remind my sons about how lucky and luxurious it is these days with your parents uh driving or flying you to uh classes and tournaments and uh sleeping in hotels. I had to do it all by myself. So I had my bike, which uh got me to the training sites, and even if it rained, I just uh put on rain clothes and got to my training and had to find my ways to get to my tournaments and then get back as well, sleeping over at families uh in the towns where the tournaments happened. I think that's a good uh learning for the younger players these days. A lot of things are kind of very nicely organized for them. But sometimes I look back on uh in our generation, how we had to uh get to or tennis, right? In all the different ways. And it also creates a bit of character, I think. So with a big smile, I remind sometimes my sons about uh the good old days where it all was a little bit less uh resourceful than than today. So that was uh how I got into tennis. Then I uh yeah, I started to study. My my parents always reminded me I could play tennis uh as much as I wanted, but after school was kind of finished, right? I had to do my homework first. My grades at school had to be good enough, and then I was allowed to play tennis and probably wasn't good enough anyway to become professional. So I uh yeah, when I started studying I tried one year really hard to get up with the national ranking as much as I could, but just draw the conclusion that my career had to be in uh in business and not so much in tennis anymore. I've been a recreational player since then, probably until the age that you just have to train very hard to keep your level, right? It was still remember when I was 35, 37. Then you uh you reach that point where you you you don't get better, right? You just have to train very hard to maintain. So then I got a bit frustrated with myself and probably changed a lot of tennis for uh other things in Spain. Pedal is a great sport as well. It's easier than tennis. So a lot of tennis started to play golf as well, but still play every now and then tennis, more golf and pedal these days. I started running as well, just to stay in shape and go to the gym. But tennis has always been uh there for me, and today still for kids who are still uh fanatic tennis players. And uh my wife and I we moved back to Madrid as well, two years ago. The kids are still studying in the US, so we have this uh beautiful Atlantic Ocean in between right now, but we cross it every now and then, so we still try to meet as a family as as much as we can.

Klara Jagosova: 12:43

Yeah, love that, and so many awesome things to dive into. I love the combination of the skiing passion and fun fact, I actually have the same. Was probably a better skier as well before I started to play tennis and my parents managed me that direction. Also, skiing is very expensive. I don't know if people realize because most of the time you have to travel, especially if you're from countries like ours that don't have high mountains, you have to pretty much live abroad most of the year or especially in the winter. But I also want to touch on the adaptability and it seems like flexibility that tennis upbringing gave you as uh you shared nowadays. Nobody would do that. Well, America is very large too, so you won't get on a bike very far. Yeah and so that's maybe the advantage of living in Netherlands, but just that will, I guess, or naturally you had that drive was like, oh, I'm just gonna bike here and play tournaments and figure out where to stay and who's to stay with, you know, I'll just solve it. How do you see that influenced you for later on? Just that mindset? Yeah, it seems like it would allow you to I'll figure out things one way or another.

Jurgen Arts: 13:55

Yeah, I think it has influenced me uh quite quite a bit. You don't realize it probably at the moment, but I mean you you have to come over a lot of things, right? I I always say, and believe it or not, but I'm pretty introvert from nature, especially in those days when you're 15, 16, and you have to kind of knock on doors of a tournament uh desk and see if there's any place to stay, right? You have to do it. There was no alternative. I mean, it was either you do it that way or there was no tournament for me. So but I think it it helped me quite a bit to develop, right? And expose yourself to to situations that are not always comfortable. But I mean, you you learn and you know how to how to get through it and how to be successful. So as I said, you don't realize it those days, but uh I I think it goes very far later on in life, in professional careers as well, right? I don't know about your own experience, Clara. You've gone through the the very same. So is that the same for you or was it very different for you?

Klara Jagosova: 14:56

100% it's been the same. And my theory is I'm still testing it through this podcast, but I do think that most introverts cling to individual sports, because we're totally fine on being by ourselves, right? In individual sports, you spend a lot of time alone. So if you're an extrovert, I think it's really hard to be an individual sports player. So I was totally introverted. I was totally fine just going between the tennis courts and my flat, actually, I had back in the day. And my mom always thought, oh my god, this girl, she's not even gonna be usable in the real world. Because I was totally content just being alone. And then when you start traveling the same, especially when I started flying to the US for tennis tournaments, because in check it wasn't very common where we would be able to stay with friends or family. But I do know it was something that US opened eyes to me, and it's probably was one of the reasons why I ended up coming here because I saw the warmth and how nice people were welcoming me into their homes, just opening their door to me and they've never met me and were willing to drive me actually from their house to the tennis court where the tournament was. And I literally feel like that's a lot of what carried on now and helped me become extroverted. Because then I realized, well, if I open up and I ask the right questions, you actually make some amazing friends. So it pulled me from the strict introverted person to the extroversion, although there comes quite a bit of tiredness with it. Depends how you do it at a tournament. If you're really focusing on a specific game and you want to play well, you have to balance how much you use that practice to not drain yourself out, I guess so to say. But I to this day say it was the best lesson for being able to eventually talk to almost anyone.

Jurgen Arts: 16:55

Absolutely.

Klara Jagosova: 16:56

And then pedaling golf, that sounds fantastic. I wish we had more pedal here. We have the pick-able in the US, but one of my former college friends and players, he was on the men's team. Actually, he's the number one, I think, pedal coach and influencer. So I should connect the two of you at some point. He's in Spain often. It's a fun sport. I do have one question personal, because I struggle with this. Transitioning from the tennis and admitting to yourself that it's time for a next sport and hobby. I feel I'm sort of there because every time I go back on the tennis court, I have an injury that sets me back like a half a year or a year. My body, there are specific body parts that are just abused from the repetition. And I do know that some of the other sports will be better at it, but my mind is still stuck on, oh no, you're a tennis player, hold on. I think that can be really hard for people to navigate. How have you navigated that?

Jurgen Arts: 17:53

I think it's as you say. I mean, the sport can become very frustrating. That happens with tennis. The same happens with me with skiing as well, right? If if you you used to do certain things or or ski or play tennis at a certain level, that that's still in your mind, but you reach a point where the mind still wants to do things, but the body cannot, right? Or you get injured. I've been at those points as well, and I just had it, right? Probably the last years I still played tournaments. It was just painful, right? Not not only the the long matches in the weekend, but I was three, four days during the week after. I I barely couldn't walk, right? So it was just my body is just not made for this anymore. That's in fact what got me to focus on other things, right? And it depends a lot. I still have a group of friends, and many of them still play everyday tennis, but I'm I was getting more interested in other things where I still could could kind of learn and improve. And I've always kind of been looking for things to to learn, to get better on. And so it wasn't that hard for me to kind of uh scale down what I had done for so many years, so many hours, and and just focus on something else, right? I I still enjoy the sport. I think that love for for tennis will will always be there. But uh I rather spend my time on other activities now, not to get myself into just painful injuries or moment of recovery or whatever.

Klara Jagosova: 19:22

Yeah. Is that how you keep yourself grounded? What's your outlet keeping the pressure away from now what you have? Um seems like would be for sure a stressful job with a lot of things going on. Is pedal golf your outlet that keeps the business thinking a little bit away and gives you a space to step away for something more fun?

Jurgen Arts: 19:44

Yeah, sports definitely is. I uh more running than tennis or pedal. You always have to get organized to play, and and running is for me running or the gym, right? I always want to travel, and you can find me in the gym of the hotel. I like to get up early and go for a run in the morning just to be fresh and uh keep you in shape. So sports has always been there, and then after the work and in the weekends, I also like cooking, and believe it or not, that's for me probably the best way to just set aside all the stress and topics from work and just go either with my wife or myself, go to do some great shopping and spend the night or spend the weekend in in the kitchen at home. I really enjoy that part as well to get rid of stress and anything that uh that's related to work.

Klara Jagosova: 20:33

That's awesome. What's your favorite thing to cook?

Jurgen Arts: 20:35

I have a lot of favorite things. People that know me would say paelias. I've been making some paellias at work and for friends, even if I'm uh I'm Dutch, I'm not from Spain, but we have a big community of Spanish friends, and we uh we always are inviting each other to houses and make a paella for friends. I enjoy that part. I always like to pick up, like I picked up paella in Spain, I probably picked up the barbecue in in Texas, also like to uh make a brisket on the slow cooking brisket here on the smoker at home, and so not really one favorite dish, but uh always been interested for local uh cuisines and uh trying to uh master some of the recipes myself as well. Big fan of the Peruvian uh kitchen. I don't know if you have Latin listeners here, but uh especially the years in Latin America. We lived in Chile, but close to Peru. And uh I've always said since those years that the Peruvian kitchen, right? The causas and the tiraditos and the ceviches, that's probably one of the kitchens that are still to see their biggest days in the world. It's uh when we left for Latin America, I think there was one or two Peruan restaurants here in Madrid nowadays. It's 50, 60, or even 100. Definitely uh the world's kitchen that's still to be explored for many, many people around the world.

Klara Jagosova: 21:57

Yeah, I love Peru. Yeah. In fact, I may have talked about it on one other podcast, but I think Lima is considered the culinary capital of the world. One of our earlier hikes we have done was actually in Peru. Yeah. And the food was so delicious. I totally undervalued how good the food is because they just cook it when you're camping, right? Just on the steel plate, and it tastes so good. And it really spoiled me for the next adventures or hiking adventures. Because any other trip I did after, I was like, the food is so bad. I always just end up eating my protein bars. That's safer. But yeah, the food in Peru is delicious. And I'm gonna invite myself, Jurgen, next time you're cooking, you gotta let me know. And I'm inviting myself to one of your um dinners. I'll bring the wine or whatever.

Jurgen Arts: 22:47

Whenever you're in Madrid or close to Madrid, let me know. And then we uh we get it on the agendas. Absolutely.

Klara Jagosova: 22:53

Love that. So back to your career. It seems like you mentioned you realized at some point that tennis wasn't the thing, and so you started focusing on school and being steered towards business. I'm guessing your family's influence growing up around business. Actually, what kind of business did they have, your parents?

Jurgen Arts: 23:14

They had a car furniture kind of business, which was in in those days a good business to run because cars were not the complex electronic computer-driven vehicles that we have today. My dad was basically just refurbishing uh cars, boats, other kinds of things, uh customer circle kind of build-ups. So it was a good business to be in. I never was kind of tainted to take that over. My dad and my mom had an accountant that came every week just to do the books for the that part uh probably interested me more. I was uh at school already pretty much interested in violence, and bookkeeping was part of it. I looked at the business more from the finance side already when my uh when I was living at home with my parents, and that that also became at school later on my focus, right? I uh started to study uh information management and uh economics as well. So that became uh where I focused and and specialized later on in my career.

Klara Jagosova: 24:15

Yeah, that's a beautiful journey, actually. And so did you start in Ericsson early on in your career?

Jurgen Arts: 24:21

In the Netherlands, when we finished studies, we still had to do military service. That's what I had to do first after uh finishing my university uh grade. And then I started actually uh the first three years in a chemical company, DSM, uh that they were uh implementing SAP. SAP was not as known and widespread as it's today, but they had uh a management development program which was attractive and for me the reason to join them and I was putting kind of on an SAP implementation track in '94 when the the current SAP system wasn't even uh GA yet. It wasn't ready, it was only available in German. We lived very close to Germany. The company was on the border of Germany as well. So uh I spent a lot of time on kind of the factory where the system was to be implemented, but also went a lot to Germany, to the head office of SAP, close to Frankfurt. Very lucky those days as well, I think, because SAP later on became a big boom. And when three years later Ericsson decided to implement SAP as well, I got a call from an old colleague that was a consultant at my former company and I joined Ericsson, and he had convinced uh Ericsson management in those days that they had to uh give me a call, ask me to join, and that's how I joined Ericsson uh three years into my career.

Klara Jagosova: 25:45

And uh what a ride it has been. So I'm checking your LinkedIn a little bit and the years trajectory. So it seems like from SAP project manager all the way to pretty much top VP and CFO roles, including, I know you've been very close to some of the strategic MAs, mergers and acquisitions that are always hard, at least from my view, or probably everybody's view in telecom. Maybe we can dive into that and the lens of evaluating, because I think every telco, whether it's OEM or carriers, struggle with that. How do you choose what company to buy and how do you let it or not let it integrate for it to continue to thrive? But reflecting back on your impressive journey again, starting from project management all the way to the pinnacle of corporate world. What are some of the key learnings or roles that you believe really shaped you, or perhaps leaders alongside that influence you to build this trajectory?

Jurgen Arts: 26:50

So it was not that I had a very clear career plan in mind. It just career just happened to me for some reason. I've I've never been that type of person that kind of knows what I wanted to do 10 years from now, where I wanted to go. I've probably come much further than I thought in the beginning I would come. I've always kind of embraced the the challenge at hand and yeah, try to be committed first of all to what you do and uh and make the best out of that. I think my experience has been that that delivers results. If you deliver results in what you currently do, that will get you into your next role. And then either you find yourself the moment that you are done and and ready for something next, or you get a call even earlier than that, or uh that that that it's time to move on and you're asked to do something else. And I've been lucky, I think, in Ericsson. You you've been at Ericsson as well. There's it's just such a big company, there's always something else to do, some other places to go. If you are a bit flexible and and and have the right kind of mindset and and and deliver results, I think there's a lot of opportunities down the road. And um it's also good in that sense. I've I coach some people and I always encourage them to be open, right? Don't don't fix yourself too much on that what you want, because there might be there might be trains leaving in a different direction, right? That are great trains and a great opportunity as well. And if you just focus on that one narrow thing that you want to do five or ten years from now, you you might limit yourself, right, to not not not see a kind of other opportunities that are there on the road. So I've I've been in my career a little bit from from left to right, most mostly in finance roles, but I've been in in shared service center roles. I've implemented Soros Oxley many years ago. That kind of experience is where you are down to the basics, right? To basic accounting. Maybe it's not as attractive, but it's it just enriches you. Also, the the switch to MA maybe was at a moment of my career. I wasn't thinking of MA, but then Ericsson acquired first cradle point and then Voltage. Since I was there in the US and ready for next role, I was kind of asked to to take a look at it, right? And then you get into it and actually discover that it's it's a great experience as well. So I think that openness and just do a good job on what you do today and then be open on what's next. Career isn't always playing out just as you plan it, but sometimes you have to make a sidestep or or go somewhere where the company really needs you, even if you if you would like to do something else. I mean, in the long run it uh it pays off and it takes you pretty far. And then as always, you need a little bit of luck as well, right? I think we we for some reason also have have been lucky in in many things we have tried and approached and and accomplished as well.

Klara Jagosova: 29:52

Yeah. And I think that luck sometimes pairs with mentors and leaders that influence us in a positive way and kind of You and give you confidence. Yeah, maybe you can do it. Like look at it this way. Were there any specific that stand out to you, Jorgen, that helped you have that view as you were going through the career and building that trajectory?

Jurgen Arts: 30:15

Mentorship and coaching, yes, I think it's it's important. Maybe another thing, and maybe you recognize that as well, right? It's tennis. If you have played tennis, you've had a lot of coaches and trainers and then people that well that that challenge you. And um I think that's super important as well, right? Sometimes you have it already, but it's always good to look for the people that that kind of challenge you, right? I think the the worst thing for a profession and a leader is not to be challenged, not to be questioned. So yes, I've always I've been very lucky, I think, with the bosses I've had, but also some some of them I still am in contact with. And if you you get into situations where you you need a kind of an another opinion, right? Things that you can't easily talk about in in your current work environment, I always knock on their doors and always get a kind of a healthy challenge or healthy opinion or healthy advice. And uh super important that uh that part of the journey as well. Do you recognize that? Has that been the same for you, Clara? Uh tennis coaches, former bosses, are they still uh part of your active life and then coaching circle?

Klara Jagosova: 31:27

Yes, 100%. Um so resonating. Actually, almost have a goosebumps about the similarities because literally just recently joining this new world that I'm in, it often allows you to reflect on the past and reconnect with where the mentors, managers, and all the whole scale of people allowed you to get to next. And I was just going through my LinkedIn and somewhat serendipitously. I was like, oh, I wonder what Lee or Michael or Corey is doing. So it allows me to reconnect and it's so refreshing. Actually, I just realized that pretty much every single manager, whether it was direct or skip manager, I still go to them in some ways for guidance. And I've had a really positive relationship with them. So it's kind of refreshing keeping that up because they get to know you in a specific time of your life or a role, but then as we continue to evolve, it's still nice to keep in touch and just get their perspective. So yeah.

Jurgen Arts: 32:30

Yeah, absolutely.

Klara Jagosova: 32:31

And so when I tie into the multicultural aspect as well, as you mentioned, starting in the Netherlands, worked in Chile, which is very different market. I'm assuming you were in Spain actually before that, I believe you mentioned, assuming you're fluent in Spanish, although I find the Chilean Spanish is very different. Fun fact, I actually came to US to play college because of a Chilean coach. And uh one of my teammates was also from Chile. And especially the more south you go, I feel like the Spanish is very, very different. And that's probably true for certain parts of Spain, actually, too. So curious about that language as well and how that shaped you being able to understand multicultural aspects and even the differences on the global business scale that Ericsson actually has, right? They work with every single operator pretty much in every single country in the world there is. So, how do you look at that and how would you suggest to leverage it for growth from your experience?

Jurgen Arts: 33:37

Culture is a big part, right? Of business and strategy as well. There's this saying of culture eat strategy for breakfast, and that's very true as well. And uh language is just one part of it. I think it's it's also lucky, right? If you're born in a smaller country, um, I remember the Netherlands, well, we didn't have movies or books translated in Dutch, right? So we saw movies in their original language. We had French, English, German on school, so you you grow up quite with some skills in language, just because you're born in a small country. Spanish as well. Spanish is a big language. I was lucky enough to learn that when I moved to Spain, and and then you moved to Latin America, as you say, where you I thought I spoke Spanish, but then I landed in Chile, and it was quite a hard experience, right? So and when people explain you something in Spanish and you you're standing there and you just don't get it, right? You ask them to repeat, and they repeat up to three times, and you still don't get it. That's Chile, South America, they're all well, apart from Brazil, all the other countries speak Spanish, but it's as you say, it's a different Spanish in every country, right? So you get you have to get used to the Argentinian Spanish, the Chilenian Spanish, the Colombian Spanish, the Venezuelan Spanish, the Mexican Spanish, so all different influences, and uh although they have a lot in common, there's of course this Latin culture is is in common, but the countries are very different. I mean, Chile and Argentina are two countries very, very different, right? But the same habits in Europe. I think we speak about Europe as one continent as well. But I mean Latin uh cultures in the Mediterranean country of Portugal, Spain, and and Italy and Greece are very different from Denmark, Sweden, Finland, and Norway, right? So huge differences, although we we we many times kind of talk about a continent as one. And uh it's important. I think if if you move around a lot, uh it's important to deal with those cultural differences. Cultures are different for a reason. So I spent quite a lot of time to to really not only observe the differences, but also try to get a bit of understanding why are people kind of behaving how they are, right? Why why are they putting so much importance on certain things and and not at all on others? And uh you learn to deal with that. And if you move around, I think a mis mistake that I made maybe initially, and I see a lot of people making as well, is that you you you join a new country, you join a new culture, and you observe a kind of those differences, but then you you tend to approach things your way, right? So you you come in and you say, now I know how this works and I know how to improve this, so you start to kind of pull the people over to your site, right? And that that many times doesn't work. It's really if you join a new culture, a new organization, new team, you really have to make an effort to become part of that team, right? Part of that culture. So it's it's not them that have to change initially, it's it's you that have to adapt. So you join them in their culture and their ways of seeing things and doing things, and then you can start to change from there, right? So rather than pull them over to your side, you have to go to the other side, and then you can start kind of building on the improvements or the changes from there, right? Together with them. That is something I think you you learn. And um, at least I learned that in Europe and Latin America, and then if you if you join the United States, and uh now I have to be careful, there are probably a lot of US listeners here on the call. But then you join you join what what many people see as the world's best country, right? So then then all of a sudden you're not kind of the the hero that comes from Europe to Latin America, then it's really your kind of the guest there, right? And and in the US we know how to do things we have probably for good reasons, right? And it's all true. We have been super successful. So this guy from the Netherlands, from Europe, comes here to tell us what to do. We know perfectly what to do. So you have to get used to that uh a bit as well. And uh I think um just experience, right? And uh we we all make mistakes. So if if you make those mistakes initially when you join a country, just uh learn from it. The mistake is is many times a great opportunity to learn, right? And approach things a little bit different. So that that's definitely required if you change countries, change cultures, and you'll find your way how to be uh successful. Now it's time for you, Clara. Tell me a little bit about your experience that coming from Europe into uh other countries in the US as well.

Klara Jagosova: 38:31

Well, I haven't personally lived in as many as you, so I love that aspect you shared, and I 100% love that adaptability. And I'm immigrant by now, I'm Czech American. I never will be American and I'm not fully Czech anymore because I lived half of my life in different countries, although I've always felt like I never fit in anywhere. So this just kind of confirms, you know, Claris n equals one, which takes a while to navigate through life. But that adaptability, I think, is so important. And I see many people who even come here in some cultures, I think do this more than others. I think, granted, because I'm Czech and I'm from such a small country similar to the Netherlands, you realize early on how in ways insignificant we are when it comes to the size, right? And like not being able, even with just the amount of people that live there, we can never be the world power in economy. So I think that gives you a little bit different mindset and being adaptable and moldable, as well as for sure just my tennis career taught me. And it's like to you as well. If I just go to your beginning, I think there was a prime example of adaptability and flexibility. You picking up your bike and going to tennis tournaments and just starting from there, whose couch you can sleep on to play the next match. So I think that definitely allows us to adapt and adjust. And even as I move around in the US, obviously America is so big. So as I moved around, every part of the country has slightly different culture, and you have to figure out what the nuances. Let's say the Jersey people are much more straightforward. And so don't take it personally, they're just the way they are. It's actually somewhat refreshing in many ways to the European, especially now. I work with a company that's very central and southeast Europe focused. And I actually like it because I'm drawing on a book of how I used to be. What happens in those parts, we're really bad in talking about ourselves and sharing what we have done well, but they're extremely good with ownership and delivery. So, me in a business development, I was like, I love it. I just have to say the awesome things that we do, and the team will deliver. So there's like these cool nuances as I think we grow through life, figuring out where you fit in and what value you can provide to your team or the role based on your experiences to complement your teams and strengths and still kind of fit in and adjust, as you mentioned. I think it's key to success.

Jurgen Arts: 41:13

Yeah, I think that the more variety, the more diversity you can bring together, the better the results, right? Many times it's it's a little bit harder to manage, but if if you find the trick to get it all working together, it's definitely uh delivering much better results than people that all from one kind, right? Or one culture or one side of the country.

Klara Jagosova: 41:33

Yes. The differences always add up to a bigger value at the end. I strongly believe in that and have experienced that myself. So speaking about differences and experiences, I'm curious about your perspective from the finance side, because I I've never been in CFO or financial roles. Obviously, business is somewhat connected because you always counting the dollars. You gotta know your profit, where your business is driving. But being a controller and kind of overseeing the full financial responsibility is something completely different. And I do want to draw in typically I prep for my guests. So some of my friends were kind enough to share some insights, even working with you. And even from my observation, you were always very good at holistic assessment and financial situation. So my friends are asking if you look at your business and even from just numbers perspective. I don't know if there is a way you actually add this nuance or culture differences, because to me, numbers are numbers, they're very black and white. There's not much to misinterpret one way or another. How do you look at the situation for what you look at first, what's next? How do you get a good sense of what that accurate view is and the plan that you may need to create? Because throughout your again, career 30 years, the telecom industry as well, Ericsson together with it, has gone through the ups and downs. You've seen the evolution of the whole telco infrastructure from probably 0G to now 6G that is uh being promoted as the next technology, whichever angle you want to take it from. I know it's a broad question, so I'll let you lead in however you find it's a best to be explained.

Jurgen Arts: 43:22

Maybe starting with the numbers part. I've never been a CFO that that fell in love with the numbers, right? The booking numbers or the reporting numbers, because those are financials and they give you a picture but never tell the story, right? So I think whatever you join a new company or join a new region or join a project, I've always tried to look beyond the numbers, right? And understand a little bit more of the context. So understand not only your project or your business, but understand the market, what's happening in the market, how are we kind of behaving in that environment and what results is that kind of yielding, and uh make it all relative to the bigger picture. And then don't don't just stick with the financial numbers, right? There's a commercial and operational reality behind those numbers, and and rather than trying to make the numbers look better, you you have to make those commercial contracts and operations better, right? That's the only way to make the numbers also better in a sustainable way. So I've always kind of tried to invest time and efforts in understanding that reality. I've always kind of doubled down on the interactions and involvement in operational aspects of the company or the project or commercial aspects. Trying to find leading indicators as well, or financial numbers especially are reported every quarter in arrears. So they're very lagging and probably give you a good picture about what happened yesterday, but not necessarily our good guidance for what will happen tomorrow. So try to find leading indicators in those kind of operational, commercial, market realities that really give you a good insight in what to expect next, right? Where where are we today? Where is this going? And and how are we gonna look? Let's say a year from now, five years from now, ten years from now. That has always given me the right guidance, I think, and probably has been a good recipe for me to be successful of leading certain parts of the business right in in the right way.

Klara Jagosova: 45:37

How do you know how to break it down? Is it just a practice? Because you kind of get into these financial roles, like to a point you said you have to look at the past, how far to the past you go, and how much do you rely on the past to figure it out with some sort of prediction what the future may hold as well as some of the trends in the market. What is that mix of your analysis? Any insights, lessons, keys to success that you believe made this view for you quite accurate?

Jurgen Arts: 46:11

It depends a bit. Every every business, every market is is different in that sense. It depends a bit if you're new to it or if you are kind of more experienced. Uh the more experienced you are, the more you can rely on your own judgment. If you join a new region or a new business or a new project, then you have to talk, right? So the starting point is always talk, talk to a lot of people, listen really well to what people are telling you, and and they will guide you as well, right? What the problems are, and have they been there for a long time? Are they recently? Have there been changes in strategy or in the team? And sometimes you have to go really far back, sometimes it just happened, right? Or hasn't even happened yet. So it depends a bit, but I think that that um really connect. Uh so don't try to find it out or solve all on yourself, right? You need to connect to find the people that that can help you on finding the pain points, right? And and not only the pain points, but also kind of the the solutions many times. I've worked with a lot of teams that that probably had it all in their own heads and in their own hands as well, but but but maybe couldn't find the dynamics to get it all together, right? And and and get out of their kind of situation or find the way to success. Very different, uh, Clara, depending on uh yeah, situation, background, kind of of challenges the the team or the organization or the company or the business is facing.

Klara Jagosova: 47:44

I'll share one thing, and I'm curious what your view is. This is one of my biggest learnings, and I know you have, again, built an amazing career at Ericsson, so you move through different roles every so often, which is actually part of that growth within Ericsson too. You get to view a different lens. But one of the biggest things I've learned when I get to a new role is always do a due diligence and open your cards and let everybody see what you're taking over. And that can actually be often very hard because sometimes people don't like to see or have you go dig in and see the numbers or the views because um who knows what, our egos or protectionism or whatever that might be, that is personal responsibility. But that's been the toughest and most valuable lesson. It's not just your manager who you have to show, because you never know. You have to actually call out a meeting and sit down, everybody, and show them all the cards and realities of what you've taken over. And if you just start with that, you're gonna be in a much better step from anything else going forward. I don't know if you resonate with that because again, you started many of these, what I consider, you know, financial heavy, which you always need to understand your numbers roles, but anything else you would want to share to complement that learning, or have you had the same one, perhaps in the past?

Jurgen Arts: 49:07

Yeah, very much the same. I think part of it maybe goes with being Dutch, right? I think as the Dutch, we have a little bit of a fame of being very direct and uh and and no nonsense, right? We put everything on the table that sometimes you have to be careful with that to do it in the right pace and the right manners. But um I think at the end it's a strength, right? But I think you have to be really honest. First of all, honest with yourself. So really make up your mind, right? What am I gonna do? I'm not gonna play around, not with myself, not with other people. Be very honest with yourself about what you want to do, what you're gonna do, and then also be very transparent, right? If you join a new team, a new company, an MA, if you join that company that is being taken over, right? And maybe they hold their cards really close to their chest. Try to create that that environment of of trust as as soon as you can, right? Just to be very honest, very open, and also be very honest and very open about what is gonna happen, right? Not only about what who you are and and why you're there and what you're there for, but try to construct like a very good picture about what what's gonna happen, what are we gonna do here together, right? And then there are there are kind of always people that love it and people that that are kind of in the middle, and people that that are scared of it, right? Or don't like it at all. So I'm I think that's also important to go through, right? Don't sugarcoat it, don't don't sell it any better than it will be, because it's it's super important in those initial stages that people really understand what's gonna happen here, and everyone can make up his or her mind, right? About do I want to be part of that or or not? Because you you better find that out early than finding it out along the way, right? Where people really start to behave in a suspicious way, maybe you're not as collaborative as they should be. So that clarity, that that putting the cards on the table as you name it, is super, super important. I think if you if you don't do that with the right transparency and quick enough in a new journey, it would always hit back against you, right? Along along the road. Super important to do that, and uh it's not not always easy, but but it's giving the best results, right? And that along time. Not not only for the company, not only for yourself. But I think even people that in those moments suffer most, and many times people leave, right? Either for their own or you have to let them go. I think it's still the best outcome, right? Because just keeping everything as is or taking everyone through the the same journey, even if they don't like it, is is never gonna give a good result, right? Not for them, not for the company, not for yourself. That openness, that transparency is super, super key in anything we we do.

Klara Jagosova: 52:06

I conquer with it. I always ponder if I was shaped that way because of tennis. I would say in sports, you have to be 100% honest and real with yourself or with the team as you're playing the game. Because if you're sugarcoating a situation where you're trying to talk to yourself that you're not losing, but you are, there's like a different game and strategy you have to play throughout different parts of the game, right? As you progress. Yeah. In fact, I was just yesterday on Instagram watching Serena and Venus Williams having a conversation, and Venus was sharing the same. Like as an athlete, you have to be brutally honest with yourself and especially individual athlete, again, from that perspective, because you're there alone. And so, do you feel that translated a little bit to the finance as well, that mindset from sports, saying that reality, even when people don't like it?

Jurgen Arts: 52:58

Yeah, I think it it does, especially with tennis, right? Where many times it's well, many times it's always just you out there, right? In doubles, you have a, of course, a mate to play with, but in singles, it's you out there on the court, and it's a big problem-solving exercise, right? Because you have matches where your own game is a kind of winning you the match, but then you you face a lot of matches where that's not working out, right? And you have to you have to find a way out to how to win this match, and that's not that's a kind of not always then your natural game style, but but but you have to adapt, right? You have to adapt to your own strength that daily, you have to adapt to your opponent, you have to adapt to the circumstances, the weather. So I think that that ability uh to adapt is um is definitely somehow also staying with me, right? In in business. Things don't always go as you plan it, right? Or you want it to be, and you you better acknowledge that and and find your way around it than insisting too much on an unsuccessful strategy, right? That's never bringing you uh very far. So that's my experience, Clark. Must must resonate with with you as well, I guess.

Klara Jagosova: 54:09

100% going back to the adaptability, I think that carries on through everything. There's this equation that I'm trying to think of it. I always butcher these when I'm trying to think of them top of mind. Reflection and iteration through that innovation and the growth cycle is really important. So you assess the situation with the reality, create a plan, start to execute, collect data, and then iterate. So there's a cycle of that iterative plan, whether that initial hypothesis is true, and as you gather more data, you kind of continue to tweak and move forward with a flexible mindset and tennis. If you start with a specific game but it's not working, and you are clearly losing, you gotta think of a different strategy or lean on a different stroke. It's for whatever reason that they that stroke that you always had is just not showing up. You have to find a creative way to make another one stand out. On that note, I do want to take time, go a little bit more even into MA because I find that it's really hard for any company, Ericsson or telco across the board. Ericsson has been on this journey, even for me being internally on reinventing, and for that matter, every telco is trying to figure out what is the next level of growth. Yeah. If you look at the telco market, right, the growth is few percentage year over year because it's established technology, although we go through the G's upgrades. You did mention Vonage and Cradle Point acquisition. I was privileged to have George on the podcast, who is a fantastic human. I still talk to him now and then. I love his um stay humble yet hungry motto. But I do want to share something from George that I think you would enjoy hearing and would love your perspective. George shared, he has to say that any success Eriksson has had with the acquisition of Cradle Point is due in a large part to you. You were both the Sherpa and bodyguard of Cradle Point. You quickly understood the value drivers of their business and how how Ericson may be able to amplify those. And importantly, how big companies and the bureaucracies within the companies could crush much smaller companies of their size and business market. So George shares, he openly gave me the permission to share this. He'll always be grateful to you for your help and mentorship as they became part of Ericsson. And you're super smart from IQ to EQ, which I conquer and everybody I have talked to as well. So we have a perfect combination, pragmatic leader that provides clarity and kindness throughout the process. You're the epitome of the very best of Ericsson. So George also asked, he's very curious and interested to hear about some of your learnings from that MA you have had or challenges, big companies acquiring smaller companies that operate in perhaps even different markets with different viral drivers than Ericsson that you may want to share with the audience.

Jurgen Arts: 57:13

Yeah, I'm not happy to do so, and great to uh hear about uh George. He's a great leader, great person, as you uh as you say. Not only George, I really enjoyed working with the whole Cradlepoint team. Yeah, it's such a great team running in a company from startup to to reasonable size. When we acquired them, I think they were about 500 people, maybe at that point where an almost hundred thousand people company like Ericsson takes over a 500 people company like Cradle Point. There's a lot, there's a lot happening, right? Definitely uh a great experience, great people on both sides, I must say. And my role maybe as an integration lead was very much making the two worlds connect, right? Because those big differences in size, it's not only the size, it's also maturity or cradle point, which was coming from a startup, successful startup. There was an a great can-do culture, right? Experienced leaders like George were very quick in finding a solution to whatever problem arised. And if it worked, it was good enough, right? And of course, then you become part of an Ericsson who has to comply with global regulations and cybersecurity, the quarterly reporting and other rules above, right? It's all a very different, difficult reality to understand and to live with for those hundred thousand people at Ericsson, right? Where you have a kind of global processes and global systems and global responsibles for everything. So with 500 versus 100,000, there's roughly 200 people at Ericsson site for everyone in Cradle Point, right? So what you have really to avoid is that those 200 people jump on that that guy or girl in Cradle Point. So that was a big part of my role, just to make the two parts connect in a good way and um and try to understand each other, right? I think many many mistakes, and we we also looked back on Ericsson, of course, and talked with a lot of uh people involved in earlier M ⁇ As in Ericsson. I think that the most common mistake we had made in in earlier M ⁇ As was was doing that all too quickly, right? Take decisions without understanding, take decisions without thinking them through what they would kind of generate and then yield on on the other side. So that was a big part of what we did in the beginning and big part of the success as well, I think, just to shield Cradle Point a little bit in the beginning, try first to get a good understanding of that enterprise business, right? In Ericsson, we are very much on the on the CSP side. We work with the big operators like the ATTs of the world. And Cradle Point has enterprise customers, right? Which are very different deal sizes, very different clock speeds, very different delivery times as well, right? It's 24, 48 hours delivery versus weeks or months on uh on a core business site in Ericsson. So that was a big part of uh of my role, I think, to make those connections in all the different dimensions, right? Commercially, supply, operations, legal, finance, you name it. Very uh grateful, Jorney. I think it's still a great acquisition. George has uh has left Cradle Point in the in the meantime, but still great to hear from George. Very nice words can only echo those very same terms for uh George and his team. Uh they're being great in uh in being acquired. It's not always easy to be acquired, a big company where everything becomes global and with all the exposure related. But yeah, we did uh we did a good job all together there. So looking back with very good feelings on that period.

Klara Jagosova: 1:01:03

And I think with every acquisition comes also change and the fear of change. I think most of the time, I probably often try to lie to myself that I'm not scared of change. I'm sure there's underlying adrenaline levels that I go through as well when I'm changing. I'm just trying to reframe the mindset from the fear and anxiety to looking forward to it. It's actually a very small twist. So if you learn how to do that in life, it's easier. But I think the vast majority of us still are afraid of change. So to your point, leading a much smaller company through this acquisition. I'm sure a lot of people that are part of it is like, oh my God, what does it mean for us? What's gonna change? Working wise, overall business-wise, hierarchical-wise, there's a lot of chaos, I'm sure, and just thoughts that are going on through their minds that are probably mostly kind of changed and by the default lean towards being fur-driven.

Jurgen Arts: 1:02:00

And I think that change can be great, right? There's, I still remember with Cradle Point, kind of their technical engineers that they're for them, change was great, right? Because they all of a sudden got direct access to this world of experience and RD on the Ericsson site. So they have an open for them in that sense, right? But if you are working in a smaller function in finance or people where it's just a very small team, and then all of a sudden you have to deal with these big functions in Ericsson, right? And there are global systems, then it can can become all a little bit less attractive. As I mentioned earlier on, it's super important, I think, just to be very clear and transparent on that, because then everyone can make up his or her mind as well, right? About what do I like this? Do I want to stay? Do I want to go full for this? Or am I kind of coming at a point where I need to consider all the other alternatives that can be very valid and should be supported as well.

Klara Jagosova: 1:02:56

Before we move from MA, again, that part is always very complex. Anything from your experience or learnings you want to share with the world how to navigate or not navigate?

Jurgen Arts: 1:03:08

Let me just give a high-level advice. I think one thing I already said, so don't take decisions before you really understand, right, what it means on both parties. That's super important. And uh respect and be transparent, work together. Every MA is different. It's good to get the reflections from one example for another, but at the end, you need to dig deep. Be with the people, be with the team on both sides, make the right connections. That's probably the best recipe to make an MA successful over time.

Klara Jagosova: 1:03:36

And so switching a little bit more towards the leadership. I'm curious if you have any specific leadership principles again, going back on your career that you have honed, you want to share with the world.

Jurgen Arts: 1:03:48

I think I mentioned them maybe already, right? Leadership principles are always be yourself, be honest, and create an environment for people that they feel good in, right? I think we we all spend a lot of time at work, so you better make it a place where people feel feel good, feel valued, feel that they really contribute. So that that's a kind of basic table stakes, I think. Be very clear about the challenge at hand, right? So, what is it that we're gonna do together? Make sure that everyone kind of understands, ties into that, finds a place in that as well, and then execute. I mean, it's all about execution and make sure you're you're making progress. So, course correct down the road. The world is not always looking as we thought it would look a quarter earlier or year earlier. So you you really have to adapt and follow up, be with the team, make sure you stay connected, especially in these days of remote connectivity, right? We don't gather together on the same place anymore. And it's a hard part many times in these days of video conferencing. You you need to find ways, and and sometimes that requires travel as well, bring people together really to find that chemistry as well, right? And really check in that that everyone is still committed, everyone is still connected, and and that the team is still uh giving the best, yeah, the best results it it can. So that is uh a little bit of how I've approached always any challenge. It's running a business, running a team, running an MA project, or any other kind of business has always worked out pretty well for me. I don't know if that's leadership principles, but that's at least how I've always approached my challenges professionally.

Klara Jagosova: 1:05:29

Yeah, and you mentioned team and building their team. That's also very important. And I even find from my limited experience, actually it's from tennis or the corporate world, the higher up you go, the lonelier in some ways it may seem to be. I don't know if you would agree with it or not. And so leaning back on your team, and as you even continue to move through the roles, building that team for yourself and taking them along seems like you have done that fantastic even through some of those examples. But any other insights of how to do that effectively? So we as leaders, as we continue to grow, don't feel lonely because you have really been on the pinnacle of the corporate world. I would compare in the athletic life for 10, 15 years, which is amazing longevity. I mean, that's hard to achieve for anybody below 1% of people achieve that, right? So any lessons, again, Keith to success, because I'm imagining having a team to lean on in those different roles is a really important part of staying in those roles.

Jurgen Arts: 1:06:36

I think the higher up you get, the more you you depend on the team, right? You need to depend on the team. If you you start your career, you can be the smart girl or the smart guy of the team. But the the earlier earlier promotions or the earlier career steps, it's really about changing that, right? You you need to change from being that smart person yourself to become a leader of smart persons, right? And and then further the next step is to become a leader of smart persons, right? So you need you need to connect, but you need also to take some more distance yourself from operational things and and just make sure you have a great team, right? That does that, not for you, but for the organization or for the the greater good or for themselves. That's how I've experienced it. So I've always been a kind of in my head, very quick in in problem solving. And I was probably in the earlier days of my career always the first one to raise my hand to come up with my idea, and also there you learn to kind of just just hold that back a little bit, right? Listen, listen a bit better to other ideas, try to work with what others give you rather than imposing directly your own idea or way to solve things. And uh yeah, that's that's a much better way. If you're higher up, then you definitely need that, right? You you cannot be on everything, you need to rely on a team that comes up with great ideas, and the more advanced we get in our career and with the young next generations with all their preparations of AI and new technologies and digital born, they actually are much better at solving certain problems than I will ever get, right? So that's that's a learning, that's a journey, I think. And then the other part I mentioned as well, right? Make sure as a leader also that you always have people around you that challenge you, right? As I said, the worst, the worst thing that can happen to you as a leader is that everyone agrees with you. Because then no one will warn you at the moment you're about to make a mistake. You need that challenging environment around you that can either come from your team, if you don't get enough from your team, then make sure you find other people, right? Coaches or friends or other professionals in the industry that can challenge you, that dare to challenge you, and don't ever think that you will always be right in everything you come up with. We always make a lot of mistakes, uh, apart from some good decisions that we might make. You better have people around you that uh kind of alert you about that and warn you before it's too late. It's not super important, those aspects as well.

Klara Jagosova: 1:09:13

And I actually have to validate you have been always very good with that and even checking in with people at different levels. I still remember one event that you and I had met, and you actually created time to come in and ask me and to check in. I think of anything. It just speaks about you being aware and noticing what's going on and creating that space, which I think is really important for anybody on the team or beyond, and having that curiosity to really tap into the various levels of the organization to see if you understand or the realities the right way.

Jurgen Arts: 1:09:52

Yeah, I miss those days. I must say, Clara, that uh now with the COVID and this virtual world, right? It's not that easy to walk around. I've always enjoyed to be around in the offices where I was based and just walk around. My favorite at least once a week, I was walking around with the head of HR, the head of people. I always had a theory that culture, but also talent is very visible, right? And that that's what I have a hard time these days with all these virtual meetings to to make time for and find. When you walk around and the events we had at Ericsson and where we met are great locations, right? So of course you can meet at a bar with with the guys you already know. But I always enjoy to go around, right, and meet meet a kind of new people. And if I said that talent is very visible, I always had a theory that if you walk around in your office and just try it, right? Invite the people, the listeners you to do it, just experiment with it, walk around, go to another floor of another department and and see what happens. And there are a lot of people that that see, oh, one of the the big the CFO is at our floor, right? So you see you see people shying away or just simulate that they're very busy at that moment. But I've always said the real talent doesn't let that chance go by. So I always enjoyed those two or three kind of, even if they were nervous, but that stood up and reached out and shook your hand and presented themselves, and then you you get a nice conversation out of the nothing. And I still I still remember, Clara, when when we met, you were one of those persons, right? That we met at an event that we you triggered a conversation, and then that's how we got to know each other. I think that's what talent does. I mean, if you get the opportunity to just meet and be introduced to someone that really can can mean something for you career-wise, or just professionally, or amplify your network with something you you didn't know yesterday, that's a great opportunity, right? So thanks to you, Clara, for reaching out for that moment. If not, we might not have been here today together. But in general, I think it goes far beyond that, right? That's really, as I said, what I miss these days with all these virtual meetings. Let's not give on that. And a big advice to everyone here in the audience. Walk around and try to spot the talent and the culture in your offices, right? It's it's there, it's for grab, and it's it's hard to find it that way in these virtual meeting uh habits that that we have today.

Klara Jagosova: 1:12:27

Yes. I still don't know what the right balance is, but I agree. There's just something that cannot be replaced virtually when you're in the office and just bumping into people and seeing them, I always say in the real version, not just the 2D or even if it's 3D, if we're gonna roll out to the AR VR glasses, I think there's still much more to be sensed and felt and experienced. So yeah, I I do enjoy the combination. But overall telecom industry, maybe looking ahead. What keeps you curious now? Any key things, trends that you're spotting, following. If we were to look six, one, two years ahead. What is your gain from curiosity diving into? Because I know you're always curious, so pondering if you want to share with us and the world.

Jurgen Arts: 1:13:15

Yeah, curiosity is always part of me. You're right. AI is definitely a big thing happening, right? Not only in telecom, I think in the world. I'm trying to spend uh quite a bit of time now just understanding AI, playing around with it, what can it do for you, trying to make use of AI as much as I can in whatever is on my agenda. So that's a big part. And then maybe a bit to telecom. As you know, and in Ericsson, we're making a big bet now into enterprise, but also into this network platform, right? Where uh all the great functionality of 5G can actually be consumed in in the form of APIs. That's why we acquired Vollege as well, where we created Aduna. And I think that's super important, not only for us in Ericsson, but for the telecom industry as a whole. I think if if something has been standing out in telecom, it's the flat revenue line, right? All the companies, us as kind of equipment providers like Ericsson and uh Pierce, but also the operators like AT ⁇ T and others in all these years, in the last two or three decades, we haven't seen our revenues grow, right? In spite of all this great technology with 4G, 5G, in the future 6G that we are bringing to the market, our revenues have been flettish, and uh and we've seen the value kind of being generated in stock price and earnings by um over-the-top players, web scalers. So that is the game that we uh, at least in our side, together with our operator customers, would like to change, right? And getting away from this kind of monthly billing in the consumer space, but also an enterprise is still an industry that's based on a monthly bill, get much more pay per use. Maybe you want in in gaming or for this video conference, you want a superior performance secured by network slice, and then maybe you're willing to pay for that a little bit of money as well. So changing that way that telecom is uh consumed and and paid for. That's a big bet now from Ericsson, but it goes way beyond Ericsson, right? It goes for the industry.

Klara Jagosova: 1:15:28

Yes.

Jurgen Arts: 1:15:28

And that's hopefully the recipe to uh see that stability in our stock price and uh revenues turning into more growth into the future as well.

Klara Jagosova: 1:15:39

Yeah, I know that's top of mind for everyone and pretty much every carrier in the world. So look forward to continuing with that and maybe in any ways help enable it with some of the awesome talent that we have. AI, I do want to dive in. Anything fun you're exploring, you mentioned you're playing with it. I'm sure like many of us, what do you enjoy most about it or any specific application that really allowed you to understand the power of AI?

Jurgen Arts: 1:16:06

Oh, it's very uh versatile, right? It's not only search or translating, it's a lot of knowledge jobs, right? I think any legal opinion you want to get on any of the topics you deal with, it's uh ultra GBT or any of the other AI engines, it's it's giving you great results, right? That you have fingertips. So I think I'm just trying to uh yeah in my day-to-day life, try to remind about the existence of AI. And maybe you you don't fully rely on it, right? If it's really a truly important topic, you don't just rely on the kind of opinion you get from an AI engine and instead of from your lawyer, but at least you start to compare, right? And I think we've already seen a huge improvement in the quality and the outcomes of whatever you get from AI. I think that will continue. I think we can expect AI to become more and more powerful in the future, and it's it's up to us to find ways how to embed that in our day-to-day life professionally, but also personally. I think else in the in the personal uh things, there's a lot of potential in AI, and we don't know exactly when, and we don't know exactly how and and which companies are to be successful, but I think AI will have a big place in our lives going forward that I'm pretty sure about.

Klara Jagosova: 1:17:24

Yeah. Yeah. I do enjoy actually my podcast as my playground for AI stuff and tools as well, uh, especially the one we're using even for recording Riverside that have quite a few AI features, and it's impressive how it can help save time, or people who aren't skilled in videos like myself, be able to eventually do it all by myself. It's uh kind of fun and look forward to seeing where things go. Before last two closing questions, anything that's top of mind or you want to share with the audience, AI, non-AI, telco, leadership.

Jurgen Arts: 1:18:00

Maybe sharing. I think I told you without maybe openly talking about it. I'm uh I'm getting at the point where I'm leaving Ericsson after uh 29 years of career. So at the end of January, I will leave the company I've uh I've enjoyed working at more than I ever imagined for 29 years. So I'm running a kind of uh exercise now, a boot camp about what to do next. Really uh looking forward to uh yeah, what probably will be the last phase of my career to make that a journey as exciting as as the last 29 years have been as at this uh fantastic company. So that's that's where I'm at. Happy to uh engage on that with uh George or other people listening to this podcast and want to uh have a chat about that, or you personally, Clara, then uh feel free to reach out and uh happy to continue this podcast in another shape or form after it's published.

Klara Jagosova: 1:18:54

Yeah, and congratulations, that is a big change, and I have no doubt you'll take all the amazing leadership lessons and skills to the next endeavor. Seems like you're still very early through the process. Anything you want to share of where your enthusiasm is falling into or specific areas that even early on you're being pulled towards to explore?

Jurgen Arts: 1:19:16

Not yet. It's still very early. I have to uh find that out. There's a pathway for that to find it out, and I'm uh I'm just entering that pathway, I feel. So probably by the end of the year or latest in January, I might have a more concrete idea to uh yeah, to know what what my next journey will be. But as I said, anyone that wants to give input on that or has a great idea about how to approach that or what that might be, happy to uh to engage and uh let's see what comes out. So maybe I follow your steps, Clara. You took that step four years ago and it has worked out very well for you, I understand. So maybe you can become one of my coaches for that uh next few months in how to approach that and uh and where it will land.

Klara Jagosova: 1:20:00

Anytime. And I know your level is kind of completely different, but I'm sure some of the principles do still apply. And I think a lot of what we have discussed, actually in this podcast, the adaptability and flexibility and open mind, and um being able to explore while being aware of your strengths will lead you in the right direction. And it seems like often a mess because I have no doubt you have a lot of interesting things coming your way, which can be sometimes even hard to distill which one is the most exciting one, because I'm sure there will be many. But happy to brainstorm anytime. Maybe we'll manage to meet for a dinner at some point. It's always a fun conversation. On that note, and the change. There's lots happening in the world when it comes to actually change your world, whether it's business, economical, or even still wars and fear of AI. Anything you would want to inspire people to be doing more of or less of?

Jurgen Arts: 1:20:58

Maybe just a general advice here, the advice I give a lot to the people I used to coach is take some distance every now and then, right? That's what I'm doing now with my job. That's what I've tried to do during my career as well. And what I really think that a lot of people benefit a lot from, right? We are all running around at high speed, full agenda. So it's hard to take distance from what you're doing. And at the same time, it's super, super important. So as I said, many times if people come to me and ask for a bit of advice, I invite them first to take a step back, right? So not one step back, but take three step backs and try to get that more helicopter view, right? Sometimes you need to walk up the hill and look at at everything that's happening down there from above, and then you you will understand a little bit more better the dynamics. Things just look different and maybe more logical if you take some more distance from them. So that has always helped me. That's what I'm trying to do now as well in this journey about finding out where to go next. And uh yeah, definitely an advice that I I give a lot of the people I coach, and maybe I can generalize that you're out.

Klara Jagosova: 1:22:10

Love it. And um seems like it was actually an open invite for people to reach you. I um have your LinkedIn profile, so with your permission, uh add it to the episode notes so people can easily click and connect. Is there any other best way to follow you, connect with you, and what Jurgen is up to as you're exploring even what's next ahead?

Jurgen Arts: 1:22:31

LinkedIn is probably the best way. I'm uh on that quite frequently. And uh I don't know if you get my email or phone from it, but if not, then just connect via LinkedIn and I'll uh react on that and then we take it from there.

Klara Jagosova: 1:22:44

Fantastic. Well, thank you so much, Jurgen, for this time. I know we went over a bit and I could talk to you for hours and look forward to connecting in person, having some awesome food. Whoever will end up cooking, I'm sure you'll better cook than me, maybe playing some puddle and uh chatting about business world life, telco and beyond.

Jurgen Arts: 1:23:05

Super. Thanks a lot, Clara. Thanks a lot for having me. And uh yeah, let's let's find a time and place to meet.

Klara Jagosova: 1:23:11

I look forward to that. Fantastic. Thank you so much. Thank you, Clara. If you enjoyed this episode, I want to ask you to please do two things that would help me greatly. One, please consider leaving a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any other podcasting platform that you use to listen to this episode. Two, please share this podcast with a friend who you believe might enjoy it as well. It is a great way to remind someone you care about them by sharing a conversation they might be interested in. Thank you for listening.