D’Amato & Szabo: Wine Thieves
D’Amato & Szabo: Wine Thieves
S3E8: A Tale of Two Crozes-Hermitage, with Daphné Chave and David Combier
Its’ syrah-o’clock somewhere and the Wine Thieves are back to unlock the secrets of the northern Rhone’s largest appellation where syrah takes many shapes: Crozes-Hermitage. But it’s really a tale of two crozes, two very distinct parts. There’s what growers refer to as the northern half of Crozes-Hermitage to the north of the imposing hill of Hermitage itself – where it is narrower, cooler, and higher, with steep granitic slopes. That hard magmatic stone in all its glory makes for striking syrah. In the south, it is windier, flatter, drier, and warmer, with decidedly more Mediterranean influence, and alluvial, stone-covered plains where much of the appellation's volume originates, featuring mainly compelling, fruit-forward styles of syrah.
Joining us from Tain-l’Hermitage, our guests Daphné Chave and David Combier are part of the rising ‘new generation’ of younger wine producers in the region, carrying forward the legacy of their parents. Daphné is the next generation at the helm of her family’s Domaine Yann Chave. She recently earned a degree in winemaking and has worked at some of the wolds great wineries, and is now exploring new directions as she gradually takes more control of the estate.
David is a fourth-generation organic farmer and co-owner of Domaine Combier, pioneers of organic viticulture in Crozes-Hermitage since the 1970s. The Domaine spans 60 hectares, with the majority in the Crozes-Hermitage AOC, covering the full spectrum of the appellation from the exposed granite soils in the north to the clay-limestone vineyards of the south.
We’ll discuss how their experiences abroad have influenced their winemaking, how the variety of syrah reflects its terroir in its wine, recent challenges affecting the variety in the northern Rhone and of course, a word on the whites – Marsanne and roussane of the appellation and its rising demand among other topics in this Wine Thieves reboot episode!
Join us with a glass of Crozes Hermitage (search winealign.com for our top picks from the region) and follow along.
This episode was made with the support of Interprofessionnelle
de l'Appellation Crozes-Hermitage.
This is Wine Thieves season three. I'm John Sabo.
SPEAKER_01:And I'm Sarah D'Amato. And we are your guides to the world of wine.
SPEAKER_04:Welcome back to Wine Thieves. I'm your co-host, John Sabo, and it's been a minute since our last episode, but we're delighted to be back with some fresh content and interviews with important winemakers all over the planet. A big thanks to all of our loyal listeners who are returning, and a warm welcome to anyone joining us for the first time.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, welcome. Well, today we're talking about Co's Ermitage, Ermitage's larger, slightly more approachable neighbor.
SPEAKER_04:More approachable, Sarah, yes. But I would argue maybe a little less well understood, certainly more variable. You'll find everything from brooding introspective bottles requiring some serious contemplation all the way to, hey, pop over. I just opened a bottle of wine.
SPEAKER_02:And I might just do that. Now, before we go any further, John, it's cause ermitage.
SPEAKER_04:I love your pronunciation, Sarah. The wine thieves were big on pronouncing things correctly, and yes, for the record, that is not croz or croiset. Don't make your life difficult, don't add extra syllables. Cos will do. But Sarah, what about that useless H? Why the H in French? It's never pronounced. It's like a keepsake from a bygone era that they can't bring themselves to toss out. But I have seen Hermitage spelled without the H and on some pretty famous labels at that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, you know, it's one of those things that you just have to know in French. Hermitage with an H is the modern official name for the appellation, while Ermitage with no H is the original historic name, referring to the legend of this 13th century knight who lived as a hermit there. And finally, you know, I did look into this aspirated H business of which you speak in French, and apparently when it is silent, it stems from the Latin where H sounds faded away. While the aspirated H in French, like a rico, stems from the Germanic Frankish words and acts as consonants to block liaisons and words from blending into others. So enough grammar. Let's get to the wines. John, I have strong feelings about the Rhone Valley, as you know.
SPEAKER_04:Uh oh yes, I do. You do spend quite a lot of time there, after all, but down in the south, as I'm sure you'll tell us about. However, I do know that you like yourself a little rotundon, don't you?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, it's my weakness, and I I try hard not to preferentially treat these wines, but you know, admittedly I do, and my arm, as you know, is easily twisted over a bottle of great syrah. So, you know, I'm a a southern Rhone gal by upbringing, but one day I decided to get in the car and drive up north past Montalimar, past Valence, which is that nexus point where the south meets the north in the Rhone Valley, and see what uh all these steep granitic slopes and the narrower part of the valley had to offer. So up to this point, Grenache had been my first crush, but Cyrah was quick to win me over with all its pepperiness, that rotundon you mentioned, John, which is present in the skins of Cyrah and extracted during fermentation, has a pretty low detection threshold to the point where some people are unable to smell it, in case some of you don't know what all the fuss is about.
SPEAKER_04:And I believe Cyrah is one of the varieties with the highest content of rotundone up there with other hugely popular grapes like schiopatino. Runvetliner also has frotundone, but froppato, I think, too. Froppato. Well, there you go. But, you know, plenty in Syrah. And I hear you on Syrah. From the consumer perspective, though, I think it's a little misunderstood, and not least because of its diversity of styles. I mean, it's clearly a variety that's capable of making some of the greatest wines on the planet. But outside of the Northern Rhone, and maybe I I'd even add in South Australia, I imagine that people are not entirely sure what to expect when they pick up a bottle of Syrah, as it has a whole range of personalities, and these personalities pretty closely reflect where the grapes are grown. And even in an appellation like Crozel Mitage, it's quite varied, as we'll see. You know, Sarah I was in the Northern Rhone just a few months ago, and I have to say I refell in love with Syrah, and also the whites from Marsan and Roussan. Let's not forget those beauties. So, listeners, if it's been a while since you last had a northern Rhone Syrah or White from the Northern Rhone, strongly encourage you to grab a bottle of Crozelmitage to sip as you continue to listen along.
SPEAKER_02:Let's get situated now. Croz Hermitage is the largest appellation in the Northern Rhone, and it sits on the left bank, or rather, east of the Rhone River. Now, on a wine map, it'll be on the right side of the Rhone. And uh as an aside, many students I teach find this confusing because they're used to the Bordelais map on which the right bank is actually to the right of the Gironde, which flows into the Atlantic upward on a map. In the Rhone, we're following the flow of the river to the Mediterranean in the south. So on most maps where north is up, the left bank will appear on the right of the Rhone on the map. That's why I say Cro d'Ermitage is on the left bank and to the east of the Rhone River. Okay, I don't want to lose you now, so let's move on. Croze d'Ermitage is largely encompassed by the Drome, which as a whole region is arguably the most aromatic of all of France, with its wild herbs and lavender strewn about, along with its truffles and olive groves. Croz d'Ermitage looks across the river at the very long appellation of Saint Joseph and hugs that hill of Ermitage.
SPEAKER_04:I don't know, Sarah, that's a pretty big statement. The most aromatic departement in all of France. There might be a few others vying for that. But I hear you. Yeah, lots of wonderful things grow there. Back to crows, or rather a tale of two crows de Croz Hermitage, two very distinct parts. First, there's what growers refer to as the northern part or the northern half of Croz Hermitage, which is above, that is, according to your geography, to the north, right, Sarah, of the hill of Elmitage. And here the towns of note include Cerse-sur-Rhone in the very, very north, winding down to Erome and then Gervon. And then there's uh a town called Larnage, further to the east, and just below that, finally, we get to the very small town of Crozelmitage itself. Actually, more of a village, I think, would be proper to say, with a population of about 650 Sirah loving souls. But it does have the honor of lending its name to the entire appellation. And as you alluded to earlier, Sarah, this northern part of Kroz Almitage is quite a lot narrower than the southern part. Here it hugs and overlooks the banks of the Rhone, with rather steep slopes in most parts. It's a little cooler and with higher elevations on average, and also uh slightly rainier, more recorded rainfall here than down in the south. Kozalmitage covers a big area and it really feels that way from this climate perspective. The climate, decidedly more temperate, and as you well know, those near constant drying winds racing down the narrow valley. Those winds, known as the Mistral, cool things down in summer and cut sharply to the bone in the winter, like the icy hand of the Alps reaching down to grasp your neck. Very dramatic. And perhaps most importantly, Sarah, this is granite territory, that hard, magmatic, igneous rock in all of its glory that makes for such striking Syrah. With a couple of patches of other things here and there around the village of Crozel Mitage itself, you'll actually find a stony terrace that's covered with leus and even leus-covered granites, also in Erme and Selve and Gervain. I guess that's uh Switzerland's contribution to the northern Rhone carried down by the Mistral, all that Swiss dust deposited.
SPEAKER_02:Well, that's a very evocative description.
SPEAKER_04:And in fact, Sarah, I'm also going to point one thing out. This is the area that was originally mapped out when the appellation was created in the 1930s in that first batch of early AOCs in France. But it was only later expanded considerably, much like several appellations that come to mind in Italy that now bear the addition of classico, you know, like Chianti Classico or Suave Classico or Valpolicella Classico, the original heartland of these appellations. So Sarah, maybe we should call this zone, the original northern sector, Croz Hermitage Classico, or at least Crozelmitage Classique. What do you what do you think?
SPEAKER_02:The Croz Croz? Well, I think you might get some kickback on that idea. But I hear what you're saying. Perhaps a question for our guests today, see how they react to that idea. Thank you for that overview of the north, John. And now we get to the rough dividing line between north and south in the Appalachian, moving from the steeper granite slopes north of the Hill of Ermitage, the Nord or Cos Coz, to the flatter, alluvial stone-covered plains, the Terrass de Chassis to the south. That's where much of the volume of the Appalachian comes from. And it's marked by different soils, microclimates, and wine styles. Thinking about a little bit more structure up in the north and a little bit more fruit forward in the south. So moving south of what you just spoke about, John, to the east of the Hill of Hermitage, we're in the small commune of Mercurol. More prominent, however, is the town of Tal Ermitage, which just sits at the base of the famous Hill of Hermitage. And it's a really lovely village. I know you've been there too, John, with its winding streets. It's a medieval town, Maison Valrona, chocolate factory is there for those of you who are chocolate lovers, called the Cite du Chocolat. In all, it's it's really worth visiting if you haven't already. The region really widens south at this point and it's flatter and generally warmer, culminating at Pont d'Olysère in the south. And in the southern part that we're talking about, it's even windier, it's flatter, drier, and warmer with more Mediterranean influence. And clay soils are often topped with pebbles known as galets. Those are found here. The vineyards are pretty vast and they incorporate quite a wide range of soils. The most significant area to the south and east of Tan l'Ermitage, that's made up of a thick strata of rounded pebbles stemming from several different ice ages, mixed with red clay, forming this relatively flat landscape of plateaus and terraces. So a lot flatter here. That's important to remember. You also get high levels of sunshine, even more sunshine here, as it's a little bit flatter, around 2,400 hours per year. And that's paired with hot and dry summers. Winters are cold, but not excessively so. That's why we call it a semicontinental type climate. Rainfall is moderate, mostly hitting at the end of summer, thanks to what locals call the Sevenol effect.
SPEAKER_04:So really quite two strikingly different areas that are all part of this Croz Hermitage appellation. And in fact, I know you've been there as well, but you can be in the town of Larnage or Mercurol, for example, or on the hill of Hermitage itself, and look down to the south and see the flatter part of Crows. It's I mean physically dramatically different, and looking north, much steeper. Two two different areas, but that's not to say that one is necessarily better than the other, as we will hear in a moment from our guests. And what are we going to talk about? How about some grape varieties? Like in the rest of the northern Rhone, Syrah, of course, thrives in Crozel Mitage, with southern examples from those flatter, more alluvial zones, generally offering riper fruit and softer, more full-bodied appeal. But if peppery Syrah's your thing, like it is Sarah's thing, look to the northern regions. Although I have to say they won't always necessarily be labeled. Here you have to do a little bit of background research to understand what those lieu di means or where a producer is located. But up in the north, the result is often much more structured wine, a little bit more incisive, a little more chiseled, you might say. And whites made often, but not always, from a blend of Marsan and Roussanne. I mean, the Cahier de Charles is a little bit unclear on this, you know, the production regulations. Because, well, let's not forget you can have up to 15%, I believe, of Marsan and or Roussan in red Crozel Mitage blended with Syrah like Vignier and Cote Rotis. Although, from my understanding, most producers are pretty much 100% syrah these days. Whether you can make pure Marsan or Roussan under the Crozel Mitage appellation seems a little gray. Do you have any insight into it?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, only that the Quay de Charge specifies that there are two white grapes and it's an assemblage of Marsan and Roussan. I'm not sure if you could do 100% or not within the Appalachian. It's a it's a little unclear. I get you.
SPEAKER_04:Well, in in practical terms, which is really what matters, uh most producers blend Marsan and Roussanne with a dominance of Marsan. It's certainly more planted than Roussin in the Appalachian, so that makes sense. But let's keep in mind that overall the proportion of white grapes in the Appalachian is small. It's only about 10%, maybe even a little bit less than 10%, although that might change. To put that in perspective, there's a much larger proportion of white wines made in the Almitage Appellation there. It's about one-third, or at least 30%.
SPEAKER_02:And so now that we've given our listeners here an overview of the region as a rather complex whole, John, how did uh Crozermitage get to be what it is today?
SPEAKER_04:Glad you asked, Sarah. Well, it helps to take a step back in time for a little historic perspective. And I'll tell you that in the early 18th century, wines from the village of Larnage that we keep mentioning, just north of the village of Croz Hermitage, started to gain attention. They were known at the time as the Vin de Mur, that's M-U-R-E Mur, named after a prominent local family, who was exporting these wines as far as England, which was extremely rare in those days for wine to travel so far. And as their reputation grew, the wines of what would later become Crozel Mitage started to climb the ranks of the northern Rome, moved up the table, as it were, becoming some of the most expensive after Elmitage and Cote Roti by the late 1700s. So to meet demand and make some francs, no doubt, savvy growers continued to expand their vineyards into the central and southern areas, which incidentally had been mostly orchards previously and still home to many, many fruit trees, wonderful peaches and apricots and so on, and also expanded into some areas further north, which were largely untamed, those steeper, super steep granite slopes we were talking about.
SPEAKER_02:Crozermitage didn't officially become an appellation until nineteen thirty-seven. And as you mentioned, that's a pretty foundational time in the history of the AOC. Now, at first it was just the village or village itself riding on the strong reputation of nearby Ermitage, and it wasn't until 1952 that the surrounding ten communes were brought into the fold. And once that happened, vineyards really started to spread and evolve across the region. Now it's currently known as a crew of the Rhone Valley, meaning that it can state its name on the label without mentioning Côte de Rhone Village, and it falls at the top of this uh perceived quality pyramid in the Rhone Valley. Now, with that, let us welcome our guests. They are part of the rising new generation of younger wine producers in the region, carrying forward the legacy of their parents and in David's case, the generations before them.
SPEAKER_04:Right, so joining us today is Daphne Chave, next generation of her family's domain under the trading name of Domain Yan Chave, her father. Over the past few years, Daphne has been making wine alongside her father Jan after recently completing a degree in winemaking, and she's already exploring new directions as she gradually takes more and more control of the estate. Her parents started Domain Yan Chav in the 1990s, embracing organic farming pretty early on, and today the estate covers some 18 hectares in Croz Elmitage, but not only. They also have holdings in Elmitage and across the river in Saint Joseph. Before stepping fully into the family estate, alongside her brother Gauthier, Daphne traveled the world, as so many of her generation did, to gain experience at some of the most respected wineries, from South Africa's biodynamic Reineke. Love that producer, to Torbreck in Australia's Barossa Valley, Michelini in Argentina, Alvaro Palacios in Prierat, and Sylvain Patay, a little closer to home in Burgundy.
SPEAKER_02:It's about full. Well, I'm excited to have her on the program and hear her thoughts after Daphne's first couple of vintages with the Domaine. And we're also pleased to welcome David Combier. He's a fourth-generation organic farmer and co-owner of Domaine Combier, which he runs alongside his brother Julien and their parents Laurent and Ghislaine, pioneers of organic viticulture in Croix Hermitage since the 1970s. The Domain now spans 60 hectares, with a large majority in Croix Ermitage, covering the full spectrum of the Appalachian from those exposed granite soils we spoke about in the north to the clay limestone vineyards of the south. And David is a keen traveler as well, but is is really deeply devoted to the terroir of his family's vineyards, and he's always experimenting. The Domain uses everything from concrete eggs to foudrees, amphora, demi-mi and barrels, as well as wine globes, harnessing all these types of vessels to really gently shape the wines.
SPEAKER_04:Daphne and David are joining us together from Tint l'Ermitage.
SPEAKER_00:So Daphne and David, you must have known each other for a while. But we created a group of uh young um Crocermitage uh wine grow. So that's how we we could um interact much more and let's be friends. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:How many are part of your group of uh young next generation Croze Hermitage producers?
SPEAKER_00:Uh we are now 50. Um, it's a group uh like we created it first because uh we we both did unification abroad, and uh we thought we did not know well all the winemakers or wine growers from the appellation. It was such a shame. So we thought it was a good idea to reunite everyone. So the the viticulters from the cooperative, the technical uh directors from the negotiant, the negotiants, the wine growers, viticulters like us, uh, and like to reunite everyone so they could share knowledge, get to know each other, and just not have a shy and professional approach between each other and the appellation.
SPEAKER_02:Well, neither of you are the first generation of your estates, but you're definitely part of this group of young wine growers. And both of you decided to carry on your family's work. So, Daphne, I've got a question for you first. I realize that you relatively recently completed your winemaking degree and and you're now sharing winemaking responsibilities with your father Jan. I'm curious what that transition has looked like, both for and your brother Gautsi.
SPEAKER_00:So, yeah, finished my Master during uh COVID, it was a viticultural andological uh European master. And then I went abroad for three or four years doing uh vinification as well. And it's been two vinifications that I'm vinifying with my dad. So at first it's always um a bit rough because you have your strong opinion on uh what you like, what you don't like, how you worked before. But um I feel it's uh always uh honorable and um like you have to honor the the work they did for more than 20 years and to learn from them before uh wanting to add something new, you know.
SPEAKER_04:And uh David, uh your fourth generation vigneron family grower, if I understand that. Uh what has that transition been like for you? Because I know it's it's sometimes a little bit of a challenge to um to move from one generation to the next, sometimes conflict, sometimes seamless. How did it work out for you?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it's dependent the day about uh family business is depend about stars, moon, and many stuff. Um but actually I managed to estate with my big brother Julian. Uh so we are the fourth generation, so obviously we are we have to to learn about the past, uh, very understand the past, what our great-grandparents, grandparents, and parents made uh before us. But also we are always important in um in the mind to to keep the mind open, to see new technique or traveling a lot or sharing with winemaker uh in the region, in Crows, in the Rhone Valley or in France, or in all the world. So it's not a big pressure to be the fourth generation because uh uh our parents and grandparents they give us um many tools and many uh savoirfare uh for doing the good stuff. Uh we have many cultures in the in the cross-emitage region about winemaking, about learning. Uh so I think each generation has to to think and learn um the the important way during the the with the global warming, for example. We we have different um goals than our parents or then our grandparents. Uh so we just have yeah to learn and to share and to to always uh keep thinking on this way to to think about the future.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and we we are both uh two small familial states where uh we do everything with our brother and uh our dad. So it's really nice because we can uh like we are not in such a big state that we are focused on one work. Both David and I are focused on viticulture in the green and pruning season, uh, winemaking during harvest, but also commercial part uh during the whole year, let's say. And it's really nice because we have the size which allows us to touch a bit of everything and not be only focused on um on uh commercial, for example. Like we we always keep in, we are always in touch with uh the vineyards, we are always in the green and like in the vineyards as well. And our familial domains were already uh well installed when we arrived. Both of us uh worked a lot, we work a lot with Oreca, and uh like we we continue the legacy and we try to improve that uh more and more, like for example, with the exports in Canada, especially.
SPEAKER_04:Great. So there's not much conflict between the marketing department, viticulture, and and winemaking divisions of your small little family estates. That's that's helpful. All right, we're gonna get a little bit more deeply into winemaking and and maybe some specifics of your domain, but uh let's take a step back. We're talking about Croz d'Ermitage here, but for listeners on the other side of the ocean, maybe less familiar with the region, and I know you also make wine in other Appalachians, Saint Joseph and and Hermitage. Tell us a little bit about where Croz Hermitage fits into this constellation of Appalachians in the Northern Rhone in terms of terroir style of wine that's that's produced. Who wants to kick that off, Daphne?
SPEAKER_00:So we are in the northern Rhone. We are uh Croz Hermitage is located around Hermitage on this side of the Rhone, in front of Saint Joseph. And Croz Hermitage is a 2,000 hectare appellation uh where there is a lot of uh diversity of terroirs. So in the north you will find more uh granite type of soils, whereas in the in the south you will find more uh clay and limestone soils with lots of roll pebbles, so hotter terroirs, and um those uh two uh terroirs can be uh combined for grain balance, but you can also have a great tarcel plot lieu d wines of all vines, uh so you can you can find a bit of everything on cross hermitage, so like a more fruit driven style in the eastern part of the appellation near Beaumont Monteux. Uh, you can find uh deeper, uh hotter uh cross hermitage styles in the around Le Chassis, Pont d'Isere where where we mostly are, and uh more um dense and uh acidic uh like Saint Joseph style uh cross hermitage in the northern where you have the granite.
SPEAKER_02:And is it more common to blend from various terroirs traditionally? And is are these um single parcel styles more up and coming? Is it more of a trend to produce single plots these days?
SPEAKER_03:Historically, the the um the family from the north of the Appalachian was mainly focused in the north uh area, or the south family was more focused in the south. So I don't think it's big commune to blend for for us in Domincumbia. We have the chance to to own Southern Estate, uh Southern plot and on the north also, and we prefer to keep separately because it's very different. Sometimes it could be a bit complex to understand the different style of the whole appellation, but for the diversity of wine and diversity of uh tasting, and for my opinion, it's very important to keep it separately, and I think historically it was separately. Uh historically, you can find some wine, the the very, very historic writing in the Crouse Hermitage or in the Hermitage. It was the van, the wine from Gervain, the wine from Mercurol. So maybe yeah, two generations before they were keeping everything separately.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but now more and more the domains are shifting to also do blends, for example, more approachable prices. So you can have a rounder, fruitier uh plots from the south, but uh with a touch of uh acidity uh in the north. Uh so those blends can be a bit more approachable, you know, for young generation. And uh we are more and more like every domain has a plot uh lieu DQ, I feel like uh it's mostly um of their old vines or uh very specific plots, like you have, for example, uh uh Cap North, so to me, like the northern part of the Crous Armitage appellation. I have Loroux, which is our oldest vines in Pont de Liser, so uh roll pebbled soils, which makes uh more gastronomic uh a bit hotter on the kind of crossermitage.
SPEAKER_04:So would you say it's fair, well fair to say that uh crazy ermitage overall is probably the most diverse of these northern Rhone appellations, referring to Cyra specifically, but yet at the same time also perhaps one of the most consistent if you're starting to blend now across the region where you can make, as you were saying, some rounder, fruitier, softer styles of wine. So it's at the at once most diverse and and uh and the most consistent.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I feel like um it's uh very diverse and uh approachable as well, um, because uh we have uh this uh mosaic of terroir which uh help us to do very approachable for the new generation, but also uh very uh very diverse because uh we have uh very old vines on uh hotter or granite soils, on uh whole pebbles or granitic soils, which makes very, very interesting uh uh plots. And uh consistent, I feel like we have a very good consistency. It always depends on the vintage, but the wine growers are more and more educated to viticulture and ontological. It's not like uh my grandparents, they didn't have a viticulture and onology uh diploma, neither my dad. But um, like uh they they work uh like the generation before us and us, they work more and more to learn how to really work each plot, each uh QV differently, so they can be consistent in the time. Uh but as I said, it's it always depends on the vintage. For example, 2020, 2022 were very hot, 21, 23, 24, 25 were a bit uh lighter style, so it's consistent, but it's uh there is always the vintage variation, let's say.
SPEAKER_02:So the farming on um this very diverse type of soils, and both of you have your families have adopted organic farming even before you came there. David, I believe it was in the 70s that your parents adopted organic farming, so that was pretty cutting-edge, but also you know, a traditional way to farm. And Daphne, as well, you're farming all organically as well, is that correct?
SPEAKER_00:Uh we have been uh organic since uh 2003. Is that more and more common in the region? More than 50% of the population is now uh organic, which is uh really, really nice. I'm a very uh organic girl, and I I really believe in it, you know.
SPEAKER_04:That's 50% of vineyards certified or 50% of the volume of production?
SPEAKER_00:Vineards.
SPEAKER_04:Vineyards. That's that's very nice.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think uh so David was one of the your grandfather was one of the pioneers of uh organic viticulture in cross-hermitage, but um also uh Chapoutier, uh, who did a big work and uh who influenced a lot uh the northern Rhone Valley to shift to organic viticulture, and all those um bigger uh maisons, bigger domains now have shifted to organic viticulture. So I think uh Jaboulet, Delas, they are organic. The cooperative is also organic, which helps to push all the more little uh wine growers to to shift to organic because if all the big domains can do it, you can also do it. And I think we are very helped by uh the our um climatic conditions, we are uh hot uh hot, windy, hot, windy, the window.
SPEAKER_03:Region is very super great to to work in biodynamic or organic style. It's quite easy. Uh the nature helps us to work in that way. You know, it's it's not an obligation to be inorganic, but when you have the the nature help you for doing this kind of vegetical or farming, you you have to think about it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, because we have the southern wind called Le Mistral, which uh basically dries out everything once it rains, so it helps us to spray way less than other regions uh in the vegetative season. And uh yeah, that that's uh massive help for us, definitely.
SPEAKER_02:The region seems very naturally gifted in a lot of those ways. Are there any uh particular challenges that you face?
SPEAKER_00:Um I think um with with the climate change right now, it's not that it's becoming uh hotter and hotter, it's that there is uh multiple vintages in one vintage. Like, for example, we can have a very rainy uh beginning of the vegetative season, and then August, like in 2024, will be very hot. So it's a bit uh tough, and uh like we really need to adapt our uh vegetable to whole work. For example, in 2024, so it rained a lot, then it was very uh dry and hot. So we we need to always think in the vegetative season how like what can happen. Like, for example, we usually leaf pluck the secondary leaves, we do epionage uh in the horn, it's a tradition, around the grapes to help the mistral to dry out everything around the grape and to not have to spray. And now, like we we used to do it uh all around the grapes, uh like on the western and eastern side, and now we are only doing it uh on the rising sun side, so on the eastern side, because so on the western side it will do like um uh you know, like an umbrella for the vines, and uh it won't uh cook in the afternoon, but it will always allow the wind to pass through though.
SPEAKER_04:All right, uh let me ask some less exciting questions here for for just one second, take a little deviation. Uh let's talk price for a moment of uh an average bottle of uh Cosel Mitage. I mean, I've been to the region, I was there recently in June, and we had a lovely cruise on the Rhone River, and we're looking up on the one side to Saint Joseph and those radically steep hills, and I mean I was actually frightened at the top of some of those. Also the hill of Vermitage itself, extremely steep in some places. And then you look across to Cosel Mitage, and it's it's considerably flatter for the most part, at least in the southern part. So production costs must be much lower than either Saint Joseph or Hermitage. Uh, and then the average bottle price of Croz-Emitage is generally lower than Saint Joseph or Elmitage as well. But what I want to know is, is it the market perception that drives that price? I mean, where's the connection between cost of production and what the market is willing to spend for a bottle of crows? Are these approachable cuvets, as you're talking about, made because the perception of crows is is less expensive? Could you make top quality? I know you do, but uh could the appellation focus more on just these top quality single parcels and charge more, or does it not make sense? It's a long, long question and complicated question, but uh see if you can un unpack it.
SPEAKER_00:I think uh thanks to the the because cross hermitage is also a big appellation, plots are more affordable, so it's more uh easy to to plant some cross hermitage or to be a new wine grower to to create a new estate in cross-ermitage. We have a less uh cost of production than Saint Joseph or Hermitage, but uh compared to Saint Joseph, we are more organic as well, so um like uh those uh costs of production are sometimes a bit higher, uh compared to if you are not organic at all. And um I think because uh because of the diversity of the appellation and uh sometimes uh like like you said, some plots that are more affordable to work on. It allows to we have to make more approachable and affordable uh wines. It allows us to also reach a new generation, to to reach some people that do not have the the wallet to buy uh$50 uh wines, you know, and it allows them to have uh uh like an entry door to the appellation, and then they can shift to like plots uh plots wines or like uh more um like uh more uh age wines as well. Like uh David has a a broader range that I have. I only produce uh five QVs and only two in Crozamita, uh three in Crozamita. Uh David has a more um uh larger yeah, yeah, so he will be more able to talk about it.
SPEAKER_03:But I think we we can make like two sides of wine or three sides of wine, like very entrance level wine. Crozamita is the the entrance uh wine from the north of Grand Valley. Uh if you find the young vines uh produced on the flatland, for sure you will have the very good price and also very very nice quality to have fruity, fresh, and super easy great wine to start and to learn the Sierra with Crocermitage, but also um we we need to never forget the the north part of Croushermitage where there is the historic part and where it's completely slope uh appellate uh part of the appellation, very similar to Saint Joseph, so it's also harder. But the diversity of the appellation, of course, the south of Tel Hermitage is flat, the east is semi-slope, and the north is very slope. We we can very make different kinds of vines about the farming is for sure. The flatland is less cost about uh the culture, but if you blend your young vines, the young vines is generally producing more, so you can also have very good quality, fruitness, and the best price. But also on the on the flatland and um with your old vines, you very can make very impressionant wine and very exceptional wine, able to fight with the top ermitage or with the top Saint-Joseph or Cotroti. So Croz Hermitage, you very can find many wines, the freshness, the fruitness, the very good price, but also the the top wine from the from the north and Rouen Valley. So it's super great application.
SPEAKER_04:So I guess like most most regions, price will be your main guide if you're picking up, say, a$20,$25 bottle of Croz Hermitage, one would expect soft, fruity, approachable, delicious, but maybe not to age for 10 years in your cellar all the way up to wines that uh I guess in your opinions compete with the top from Saint-Joseph and Herb.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, definitely like uh really depends on uh how the producer works or where the plot is. But uh I I definitely uh that think that there are higher top uh cause hermitage produced in the appellation, uh especially that uh like there is a big focus on quality uh for more than uh 15 years now. Like the the wines are made for restaurants, for families, for gastronomic uh pairing, and not only uh blendy fruity, you know, like uh there are two sides of cross hermitage. Uh even if the fruity style of cross hermitage can be very well paired with uh on a glass or with uh fish, you know. Uh I am speaking about the reds. And for older people, or I mean uh people with a bit more money, they can have more uh age wines, uh a bit more uh fuller body, you know.
SPEAKER_04:Just one quick historical question. Uh I know the Appalachian was created in 1937, so among among the first in France, but it was much smaller at that time and it was later expanded in 1952. So that original zone created in 37, would that represent what is now what we're calling the north on those steeper granite slopes?
SPEAKER_03:I think it was seven villages at the beginning, where is the village of Croz Hermitage, Gervant, Larnage, so all the north of the Hermitage Hills. So it's more the slope and the granite uh parts. And then a few years after they our grandparents they were thinking the the flatland with the papers very near to the round is very interesting to make uh super quality wine. Uh but the south part at the beginning was more planned with trees and more access for apricot, peach, because it's near to the Rome, so the culture was very, very easier.
SPEAKER_00:But now is it was more a politicultural in the south, whereas the north was more vines-oriented. But um I think uh mostly uh our that generation really saw the potential in the the southern part, uh mostly on the role pebbles uh soils, where you could do uh very uh around um like in a good way, round around tannins, you know, a fuller body uh cross hermitage, and uh those uh terroirs in the appellation uh are uh yeah is is the majority of the appellation. I think uh 60% of the appellation is in the south.
SPEAKER_04:So so would you would you have created two separate appellations again in a in a theoretical world? I mean cross cross north and cross south, or do you think they belong together?
SPEAKER_00:No, I think they belong together because even if uh as a cross uh uh we really know like across the wine growers, we really know the appellation and we can see the difference. I think uh the average consumer won't see them uh uh because it's always cross-armitage is always fruit-driven, accessible. And uh I think it's um not like compared to Saint Joseph, for example, which is the same price range, uh the tannins of Saint Joseph are uh less uh polished than uh cross-armitage, whereas cross hermitage, even if you are in the north or in the south, you always have those soft tannins, a very fruity, round, and uh and I feel they complement well together. Like for example, if you blend them, the the north will give you more freshness and uh the soft more roundness, more body.
SPEAKER_02:So I feel like this is a really good segue into talking about the grape, in which we're in the glass that gives you more roundness, more body, and and is very reflective of its place. So you're working with a single red variety across the region, and that in itself comes with its own unique set of challenges. And you know, we hear about health issues linked to uh high-yielding CRA clones and the idea of CRA decline, the renewed interest in serine, and and concerns that limited clonal options may kind of erode regional identity and return to mast cell selection, all these types of uh concerns related to a CRA and its genetic diversity. From your vantage point and your experiences, how do you navigate these issues? And can you share some of your perspective on them?
SPEAKER_03:So actually, yeah, everybody's talking about massal selection because it's the best diversity for a vineyard, but we have to remember the the clone helped the viticulture in one time. So we are working in massal selection for many, many years, but it's very important to have diversity of everything. When we plant some vineyards for for us with my brother and my father, it's very important to have the most vines for the new plantation. So the mussel selection, we exactly know where it's come from, but also we always put like a piece of clone in the mix of everything because we also create like a diversity. Uh we don't want to plant one block uh in full clone and one in full marshal, we just want to create a diversity in all the fit we will plant. And yeah, I think it's our way we want to think, but for sure the massal selection, we have uh very old vines in the North Sun Run Valley in Crous Armitage also, so we have to use that. But doing a massal selection needs uh long time and very, very meticulous work. It's very important to make very, very well the massal selection for the future because uh if you if you do something wrong in the massal selection, you can destroy everything because yeah, we don't know the future, so some insects, some new movement of the climate can change everything. So I think the biodiversity and the diversity help.
SPEAKER_02:So biodiversity and talking about the lower-yielding clone serine, is that part of your your selection?
SPEAKER_03:Not me because this the serine is more in Cotroti. The land of the serine is more in Cotroti, so in cross-hermitage or in Hermitage, I don't think, and I know people they are doing that.
SPEAKER_00:My aunt had uh some uh serine selection actually. Uh in Beaumont, yeah, I just remember that. Um she she looks for metal selection in uh from Serene uh in Cotrouti, I think, when she was working at uh Yves Cuiron, and um before uh installing herself at Domina Leophane, and uh she made uh made some plants with uh Syrine, which uh it really gives uh dark cherry aromas, which which uh is very interesting.
SPEAKER_02:And your aunt, that's Natasha, that she's also another branch of your family producing wine under her own label. Do you two ever collaborate?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I worked for her for like two years, and now I always go and come to the vineyards or winery or to to taste and uh see uh help if she needs help, you know.
SPEAKER_04:Well, on the note of uh experience, I know you've both traveled quite widely, made wine in different regions, different hemispheres. Uh I'm I'm curious to to know from you what you learned and what you brought back, because it's really, I guess, the privilege of of your generation. I I doubt your your parents and certainly not your grandparents didn't have the opportunity to go to Wahiki Island or uh Argentina, Mendoza to make wine. So, I mean let's let's hear uh David from you first. Uh what did what did you learn? What are what are the some of the the important things you brought back and started to uh implement at your estate?
SPEAKER_03:Uh when I finished my my school in 2017, I was just graduating business school in the wine, so my technical part was quite uh a bit small, so I take the decision uh to to travel a lot during four or five years, uh also was helping me because my father was young, my brother was also uh in the state, so I take my time. Uh so what I learned is uh many stuff first, um speaking Spanish or English uh so was very, very great. Um also it's it was more for um discovering um the world, discovering uh new um new cultures, new people, new thinking of wine, new everything, you know the the the the traveling is very helpful to to be more strong and to exactly uh learning what you want to do. And in the winemaking, I'm I saw many stuff I never want to see in my winery. Um that's for me the most important. But also uh it was very interesting because uh you don't have the same reflection when you are in Mendoza or in um in Corsica or in uh in Stellenbosch or anywhere in the world. Um but you made wine exactly uh on the same uh same process. Uh transformation of grape in wine is exactly the same in all the world. But for me it was more uh learning about the people they are making the wine or the worker in the vineyards or the worker in the wineries or the winemakers. Um you speak with everybody and you create yourself and you create your style of wine making.
SPEAKER_04:More of a uh cultural formation, formation general, not not so technical. All right, without naming names, we have to ask since you brought it up about what did you see that you never want to see uh in your own winery?
SPEAKER_03:No, I don't know for me it was like uh more important to to work in the winery, also take uh um uh logistically uh part in the winery, how you to fix the pump, how you do a pump over, and doing, doing, doing to come in back in the in the winery, in my winery, and just to okay, I exactly know what I have to do, but now I have to learn uh how we make crossamitage, how we make cross-ametage from Domaine Combier. Uh, after my traveling was on that way, and many people is helping you to create yourself and and Daphne?
SPEAKER_00:Um, so me, I uh so I did my uh master in onology and viticulture. It was a European uh program. So the first um semester I went to uh Villarreal in the Douro Valley, and uh then I went to Piacenza in the northern part of Italy. Then there was uh Covid, so I I did I worked at my aunt's uh winery, but um this allows me, like the first year really allows me to have a broader international uh view of the wine and only not only focus on uh on France. So when I finished my degree, I I decided uh like David to um travel abroad, but I wanted to choose each winery um like uh for a purpose, so it was always a great variety that I could work with in the Rhone or uh kind of the same climate. So I went to a biodynamic um uh winery in uh Stellenbosch in South Africa. So it was really interesting uh in the uh like uh respect to employees, the biodynamic farming. I think uh then I went to Sylvain Pataille in Marsanais because I really wanted to learn about uh uh uh an oleologist who does low intervention wine, and I learned so much in the winery with him because he's also a consultant. So we were always doing blind tasting. It was very, very interesting to see what you like without seeing the label, you know. Um then I went to Torbreak in the Barossa Valley where it was very hot, uh, very hot terroir with uh very old vines, so how they could manage all vines that produce less without having to use the irrigation because they do not have water, and um how they could um like uh in the Barossa, how they they were uh interacting in the winery to uh more make more infusion, so it was not our torbreak, but uh uh in because torbreak uh uh extracted.
SPEAKER_04:Not such a light style of of uh Shiraz.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but uh other wineries in the Barossa tries to do more infusion style, um uh fruitier style, uh whereas they have a very dark uh cooked fruit, you know. So it was very interesting to see that in the vinification. Then I went to Priorat at Alvaro Palacios in Spain, and uh I learned a lot about steep slopes, also infusion, very, very long maceration. That's actually what we do at my winery. Uh more than three to four weeks maceration, which really helps to soften the tannins and the infusion style to to not have extraction but uh to just have the the good fruit, you know. And uh then I finished with uh Mendoza as well at Matthias Michelini, and uh it was uh a biodynamic winery as well, it was so nice. I spent the the time of my life there. Like uh it was a very new approach for me because uh as they are in the new world, they do not put uh frontiers or barriers to themselves, like for it, because they have the appellation, but the appellation is so uh like free, you know, you can create everything in the appellation. Like each kid has had to have their own project of wine. So when they were 18, they had to buy grapes, do their own labels and sell it. And I feel like they they were very, very creative thanks to that, because uh their dad, Matthias, and their mom was really pushing them to explore, see what they liked, um have always had new ideas, always try to be innovative in the appellation, and that was uh amazing.
SPEAKER_04:Do you ever wish that uh things in France were a little bit more open for wine growers to experiment and and try these sorts of things?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think uh that in cross hermitage, thanks to the affordability of the land and the diversity or like the the the fact that the the appellation is broad, it helps us to have more creativity of to be a bit more innovative compared to Hermitage where I have uh I love Hermitage, but uh you you cannot be as uh innovative or you cannot um change that much things because well, first the land is way more expensive, so if you do trials, you are not gonna do it uh on the full plot, or you have to be very to think a lot about it, and then the the the appellation is a bit more uh fixed, let's say, in the states of wine compared to sucreuse.
SPEAKER_02:I guess that must go back to the diversity then. When you've got that kind of diversity, you can be a little bit more relaxed in some of the rules, or at least you'll have people in the north versus people in the south saying, no, I want to do this, and you can't take that away. I was actually looking at the caillit de Charge the other night, and it was uh a little bit more broad than I expected, which uh is great for experimentalists like you uh in the region. And speaking of experimentalism, um David, you're doing a few uh working on some vinification practices that are a bit uncommon, no, in the in the region. Um I believe you're working with uh amphora, globes, even um concrete eggs in your vinification process. Where does uh where do those ideas stem from?
SPEAKER_03:All of this content is come from uh our experiences before. Uh but also my my father started very earlier to work with the eggs, uh, the eggs concrete. He started in 1998. So our father was always thinking and learning and discovering, testing new stuff and in the winery, in the land. So this is in our in our body, in our mind, in our feeling, in the in the combier uh vibration. So and when you travel and when you see very different winery, you always grow and you always develop that. So my father was uh winemaker also in Prirat. So in Priat, many of the wineries they use uh Damjan, Damahuana, the small glass container of 30 liters. Uh so when I came back in 2020 in the in the estates, I took like a few damjans for making stuff like orange wine or roses, or you know, my very small uh stuff. And I met Marie Pezol from Pezol family. Uh so I decided to develop the wine gloves on 2020. Uh so it was two at the beginning, now it's 25 in the winery. Uh, we have uh maybe 20 eggs, we have barrels, we work with 14 different cooperates, uh, we have some food, so we are you know is once again is our thinking is using the diversity. Um, the most important is keeping the biodiversity in the farm, in the land, the diversity of the source, of the variety, of the clone, uh, metal selection. And when you are in the winery, the goal is to produce the best fruit you can. And the vinification is just a chemical transformation, like grapes to wine. And normally it's quite easy to do. We don't want to use any analogic product for during this step, so it's why we have a lot of vessels, a lot of content, shape, form, and size different for the aging.
SPEAKER_00:And do you adapt each plot to um to a continent?
SPEAKER_03:Like, for example, uh uh all the whites go to the wine globes, or is it yeah, it's more about the variety, like the globes we or the amphora. I prefer using the rusan on this kind of continent or vassal, uh, because it's less uh oxygen, uh, is less uh richness on the wine, more less fatness, so we maintain the freshness and purity of the of the variety. Uh and the Marsan or the Syrah, it's very more easy to to work in concrete or in oak.
SPEAKER_04:So I guess I guess the uh the overall takeaway here that I'm getting from this interview is that uh cause l'emitage is the land of creativity and diversity, certainly uh an island of creativity in in the northern Rhone. I appreciate your point about not being able to mess around with with Hermitage, that's uh uh a higher risk game to play. But uh looking at looking at the uh the future, I mean you mentioned this uh group of of jeunes vignerons, these uh these youngsters, youngsters who get together. 50, that's a surprisingly large number. But what do you discuss? How do these meetings work out? Do you taste wine and break bread, or do you have a a topic in mind each time you meet? And what are those topics? What's the what's the future discussion?
SPEAKER_00:The first uh meetings were really to know each other, so do like a poly at the end of the harvest and just to have a fun moment all together. Um now we are more developing to uh technical uh let's say meetings. So for example, I was not part of it, but that vid and a group of 10 went of cross-armitage uh growers went to Sancerre to uh look about uh volcanic sulfur and uh the way of pruning because they have a very soft way of pruning by Francois Dalles in Sancerre. So they do we do uh a lot of um like we try to do more and more uh technical visits that I all together. So at the end we can compare our point of view. For example, there is a group of uh winemakers of Chaos that is coming uh in uh I don't know where, but in the first yeah in 2026. So so we can all compare our way to do winemaking, then we do a comparison uh wine tasting as well, and uh so we are doing those things. We always uh taste uh the the wines of the vintage as well, so you can um so you can uh see like a place yourself in the appellation, see what you like in the appellation, do not like as well. And uh we also do uh collective public events. So we the the thing is that there were not a lot of uh wine uh events in the region because um in the cross-armitage appellation there is a stronger sense of uh collective. We are really a group where we do a lot of uh collective actions all together, um, which is really nice because it's not always like that in all the appellations. And so, for example, we do events uh uh nationally in Paris, in Lyon, and in uh internationally. So soon the cross-armitage appellation will be in Canada uh in 2026 for uh for uh an event. And uh and uh we thought it was a shame that there was no local event because the young people from our generation did not really know cross-armittage, they were not consuming cross hermitage, they were more consuming beers or like they they did not have event to teach them about the appellation. So we we decided to do uh an event in uh the summer, like a pop up uh event in uh Mercurol, so you have the view on. all the cross-hermitage appellation and on their own. You have uh all the fruit-driven uh wines at a fixed price so I think it's 25 euros and you can taste everything by the glass as well. So even for professional they can come and taste uh more than 25 um wines from the appellation by the glass at a uh low low price and uh we also like so there is a DJ set um like we really try to to do the uh a nice event uh very approachable where all the young consumers will be able to come and will want to come and there is a whole food truck area with organic uh food trucks from uh like local and uh you know like a from the season products um so all those this artisanal uh um aspect that touch the wines from our domain but also the food uh and uh yeah like a it's a global uh echo um event I have one more question because I know it's up shortly and we don't want to take up too much more of your time but uh forgot to speak about white uh wine we were talking a lot about Syrah but um Crocermitage makes white and we don't talk enough about it we don't see enough about it as well in our export our your export market our imports um but I know that both uh Yan Chav and Combier both make a white that's Marsan focused and I know that going through the Rhone Valley uh between Marsan and Roussein there are certain regions that have preferences for Marsan versus Roussanne that make stronger uh makeups in the blend. So could you tell us a little bit about Kroz and and Marsan um a leading white in uh in crows and why it is so the appellation is uh yes indeed planted with only I think it's 8% of whites so Marsan and Roussan mix I don't have the exact percentage for for each variety. There was a big trend for Marsan indeed in Croz Hermitage because I think as we are a hot um climate uh region hot uh yeah continental hot uh climate uh Marsan with uh uh its bitterness and the white flowers style of aromas really can compensate our high pH our low acidity uh wines and uh whereas Roussan will be a bit more round and um more aromatic like uh uh the the fruit that we have around the grape uh around the vines which are uh peach apricot styles of uh uh aromas you know uh and I feel like the the consumers and us we like to to drink not two full body whites you know so Marsan allows us to do that when we have uh um uh majority of uh the variety of the the blend which is Marsan but in fact I have also two wine globes so not 25 but we do some trials and Marsan and Roussanne separate and uh and the Rousanne in the wine globe like you said uh really shows up uh beautifully it doesn't have this richness uh that you can have in uh stainless steel or um or oak uh and uh it it's really like the the little uh like um uh more shy aromas like uh it's it's not like um exotic aromas uh Roussan style you know it's uh more um delicate in the wine globes and uh like um uh you can you keep more acidity as well so it's uh like a way we are exploring right now to enhance uh Roussanne and uh yeah I think uh Marsan is in the majority in cross hermitage but uh there is still a a lot of diversity the average like in average the wine growers I all are always uh doing blends but there are some wine growers that are now isolating for example I know that Sébastien Michelin is doing uh uh Marsan and Roussanne separated um because on the plots it was planted like that so they are doing plot cuvets and uh like uh variety uh variety cuvets you know is is there a move to plant more of these white varieties Marsan and or Roussan in the area at my winery we we bought uh three hectares of uh non-plotted uh plots in the northern part of the appellation so we used to have only a uh plot in the southern part but we are gonna plant um uh Roussan and Marsan uh because it's a bit fresher uh terroir there and I feel like it's a well uh suitable for for white um it will give and there is a high demand as well for white so it was the perfect fit at the perfect time to to find those plots. I think you have like also like terroir of white and terroir of red like the south part of the appellation south of Tanhermitage in the pables and the flatland I'm not sure is the best future for the white so um as uh Daphne is doing we are looking more northern part or east part of Cresamitage for planting white uh because it's freshness and also the the um the terroir the source that they are better for the white uh it's better freshness it's better balance between the pH more a bit more facility um so we we can develop the white but not a lot there is a higher demand now for white it's still a uh um like a little secret from causal metal let's say because it's uh less than 10% of the appellation but uh now uh viticultures and even us our generation we are more and more working on the whites like for example Raphael Faugier did uh a white roussan I believe it's called Aurora um really fresh uh really dense uh really good and I think um because uh he he likes white and also uh consumers want want white yeah and we are seeing that with marketing push as well too from the Rhone with the Rhone and White events last year and uh and those are those are pretty exciting for us too in the trade. Yeah because um many um even uh trade trade uh public do not uh really know about cross hermitage white like um uh for us we mostly sell it to France like we do 60% France 40% export but uh I think the majority of the the whites like 90% of the whites are sold in France because the the the export do not really know about it and as the image of uh very rich full body whites which is not the case in Croix Hammitage but will be more the case in uh Rios and also is that's a good little insider's tip then you heard it here first on wine thieves I thought for a second there Daphne you said I I sell it only to friends but you said France your friends in France and your friends in Canada hopefully will be able to taste those wines no but uh yeah I think there is uh a good future for the white and the the reds as well because uh because uh it's still an uh crossamitage is an amazing terroir for Reds but uh yeah the the future of the whites will be in the north I think I believe great well um thanks so much for your time Sarah do you have that was my last learning so I'm I'm sure I'm sure next time we see you we'll have a lot more but thank you so much for for making the time to speak with us today and we really look forward to putting together soon. Yeah thank you for welcoming us and listening to us.
SPEAKER_04:And we look forward to seeing you in Canada in 2026. Very soon that was Daphne Chave of Domen Yanchave named after her father and David Combier of Domain Combier who joined us together from the town of Tan l'Ermitage which as you know Sarah straddles the Rhone River with one side in the drome that you were talking about in the intro and the other side in the Ardèche did you know there's a fierce rivalry between the Dromois and the Ardeschalling for the most aromatic lavender. Could be could be if you haven't visited Tan l'Ermitage you should it's right at that point where the Rhone deviates briefly from its north south course and takes a little turn to the east towards the Alps right under the hill of Ermitage with Saint Joseph stretching out on the right bank that's the west side right Sarah over in the Ardèche and Clause Hermitage which surrounds the hill of Elmitage both to the north of Ermitage and to the south of it. And so I think we should mention because people are probably wondering that there is in fact no relation between Daphne's family and that other pretty well known Chav in the Northern Rhone that is Jean Louis of course but listeners familiar with the excellent Domaine Aléophane in the region will want to know that Natasha Chav who runs it is in fact Daphne's aunt as she mentioned in the interview.
SPEAKER_02:You know Natasha sounds like is not only an aunt but a mentor and a former employer to Daphne works um with sites in Crozermitage, Saint Joseph and Cormes in the whole biodynamic realm and Aléophane, that property she has in Crozermitage on the Chassis Plain near near Beaumont Monteur in the south that's near Pont de l'Isère it must be getting close to about 60 years old those Sira vines and there are other notable vineyards in that area in the south you know like Le Sept Chemin, Lesonniers that Chapoutier makes that Southeast Vermitage so there's a lot going on in that area.
SPEAKER_04:These are these are single vineyard single vineyard names names that you would find on labels that you would find on labels from the South. All right well since we're in the in the state of clarifying things Sarah for our listeners out there who aren't familiar with the wine globe that David David was mentioning and started using, can you give us a little brief description what is a wine globe?
SPEAKER_02:Right. So the wine globe that David was talking about is a this large spherical single piece glass vessel. It's often used by high-end winemakers shall we say for fermenting and and aging wine and the whole idea is that it allows for this neutral expression a pure terroir-driven style of wine and that's thanks to the the neutrality of the vessel of glass it's also really easy to clean so you don't really have any issues with hygiene there and a lack of oxygen exchange though a little bit more fruit forward styles. So you can expect those lifted aromas and you know interestingly a reduced CO2 needs are something that you can expect from the use of wine globes and just a little bit of back history this kind of vessel is is not new in the winemaking world. If anybody has made wine on their own at home in demijons in glass vessels you're probably familiar with this right I've done it I've done that the wine globe sounds like an expensive version. It totally is and this is like micro micro fermentations right so it was created by Mikael Petzoid in 2015 and these kind of vats promote this natural lease contact because you can see it you can see it right in this through the glass vessel and it's becoming pretty sought after tool in a lot of uh prestigious sellers worldwide and it's not just Combier by the way that uses them from what I understand Caillot uses them too and I'm sure other people dabble it's not made for you know mass production of anything but it's an interesting way to experiment.
SPEAKER_04:Well Daphne said she was using it well has a couple maybe not two dozen like uh David but using it for Roussanne in particular to try and tighten up that variety you know not to say make it more like Marsanne because it's a totally different and beautiful variety on its own but yeah I can see in wine globes it would um certainly freshen it up and they're pretty pretty small as you say I put 400 liters I've seen a few at high end wineries around the world and they've only been around for a decade or so not very long. All right Sarah what did you think about this Young Growers Association have you ever seen anything like this elsewhere in the Rhone or or in France?
SPEAKER_02:Well other than in Chateau Neuf du Pap, which has a fairly active young wine growers winemakers organization, I haven't seen a lot of this per se in the Rhone. And from what I understand it's a fairly new organization. However in the the Rhone the Femme Vignerne is a producer association that I know well and a lot better a little bit more established and certainly not reflective of age but I'm I'm excited this is happening here and I can't think of two better people to be rounding up the troops.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah I mean I think it's uh a terrific idea it really shows an open-mindedness that shall we say is is not all that common in the old world in Europe at least uh in wine growing areas where people tend to you know stick to themselves and and stay behind their closed doors and not share their family secrets. But it's great to see these uh youngsters exchanging ideas and traveling the world getting that broad perspective that really really sharpens up the perspective of what you do right back home. And talking about right back home let's get into a couple of the the interesting points of that interview I I'd like how Daphne was describing this mosaic of terroirs that is diverse but approachable. But what do you think? Is that diversity of Crosermitage a strength or a weakness when it comes to marketing and promoting these wines?
SPEAKER_02:It's a good question because you often have to do as a consumer a bit of digging on your end if you don't know where these various lieux are located and sometimes it's just labeled Crosermitage. So I don't know how much producers are really trying to use this to their advantage. And I do think that um the idea of blending potential in the area is can be really helpful when we have these extreme vintages. For example 2022 was quite hot there was a lot of drought you may want to look to blending you know fruit from a little bit further north.
SPEAKER_04:Well uh my idea of Croz Hermitage classique, classico that was shot down pretty quickly uh both uh David and Daphne seemed pretty happy that the appellation is the way it is with all of its diversity. Uh both of them seem to think that that was quite a strength. You know I appreciated uh David's thoughts about and Daphne's thoughts about Croz Hermitage being sort of the gateway to the Northern Rhone if you want to call that certainly in terms of price it's the most approachable I mean look at the price of uh Cotroti and Hermitage and even Carnasse and Saint Joseph to a certain extent those are no longer really um affordable wines for many many people where crows is you know that uh gets people in the door and then they can trade up even within the the appellation and again um price is always your best guide if you're paying 25 you expect something different than if you're paying 45 50 60$70 for for a bottle. So let that be your crows indicator.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah and maybe they don't like the idea of comparing the two you know northern and southern areas because they're great sites across the spectrum like uh Combiers Clos de Grieve that's a 60 year old Sierra site on that calcaris plateau. Alain Graillot has has proved very well that it's possible to make these rich wines from the region and that's in the south in the flatlands near the Isère River in his uh La Giraude near uh Pont d'Isère. And then Alain Saint Maxime Graillot works with fruit from further north from Domain des right at the foot of the hill of Hermitage. And they also make Le Pont which is a great place for whites near Mercurol. So there are a lot of interesting sites and uh I'm glad that people are experimenting and using it's it's a shame the consumers don't know a little bit more about it, but John, that's what we're here for, right?
SPEAKER_04:Uh yes indeed and here I'm learning a whole lot in this particular episode. I didn't know Gayot had his vineyards down in the south for example I've been a a longtime admirer of those wines so yeah quality at the highest level is is possible both down south and in the north so maybe it's all just Cosmita classique just the entire population. But what about uh you know I'm always keen to talk about price quality price what was or maybe still is your impression of the quality price ratio of Crozier Mitage? Are they really those entry wines to the Northern Rhone?
SPEAKER_02:Well uh there's one thing that I wouldn't mind saying about this and is the fact that you know there are some accessibly priced wines for sure when you're looking at northern Rhone Syrahs but it's getting more and more expensive. You know we were just talking about Crayot, Alain Grayot you're spending about$50 to$80 in our market and in around 30 for those of Combier for David's wines. Uh Chaputier's varonnier is about$80 and that's that's at the very end of the Hill of Ermitage near near Tournon. So there are some wines that are in the pricier categories here or at least in the mid to pricier category.
SPEAKER_04:All right so something for everyone in Clause d'Ermitage I was pretty impressed by the stat that Daphne pulled out there but 50% of the AOC is now certified organic. Actually I did a little digging after the interview and I learned that's actually closer to two thirds or at 66% is the number I found online. But uh I I suppose that's not a surprise to you at all that such a high percentage I mean much higher than the national average in France.
SPEAKER_02:And these are producers who are choosing to to label and to certify right because there are a lot of producers in in the Rhone even further south when that wind picks up as we were saying that don't really don't need to spray and maybe don't even need to use the certification but they are so it's obviously a an important marketing tool for them and I think it's an easier place to work this way. So I'm glad they're taking advantage of it. And I hope the marketing is working for them.
SPEAKER_04:Well unfortunately they've already missed the boat on being the first Appalachian in Europe to be 100% organic. I think the Penadez got there uh just recently but I I could see them getting there very quickly and for me it is a good message to pass on to consumers.
SPEAKER_02:Agreed agreed we can all use a little bit more of organic and biodynamic wines especially when they're made as competently as the wines that our guests are making well thank you so much for joining us for our first episode back soon to be more stay tuned to stay tuned to our Instagram and Facebook accounts because we will be posting more details there soon.
SPEAKER_04:As always thanks for listening I'm your co-host John Sebo.
SPEAKER_02:And I'm Sarah D'Amato