Parenting Like A Stoic: Finding Calm Amidst the Chaos with Brittany Polat – Ep. 23

Are you searching for a parenting philosophy that goes beyond the latest trends and fads? Join us as we explore the ancient wisdom of Stoicism and its application to modern-day parenting with Brittany Polat, author of "Tranquility Parenting."

Discover how Stoic principles can help you:

• Navigate the challenges of raising children in today's culture.
• Develop resilience, not just happiness, in your children (and yourself!).
• Find the balance between giving your children autonomy and providing a sense of security.
• Manage your emotions and reactions as a parent.
• Cultivate a peaceful and fulfilling family life.

Brittany delves into key Stoic concepts such as:

• The Trichotomy of Control: Learn to focus on what you can control and let go of what you can't.
• Preferred Indifference: Discover the power of not being attached to external outcomes.
• Living in Accordance with Virtue: Understand how Stoicism encourages values like compassion, self-discipline, and resilience.

This episode offers a unique perspective on parenting that will leave you feeling empowered and inspired. Tune in and embark on a journey towards Tranquility Parenting!

Transcript

Hadleigh Fischer (00:00.862)
Hello and welcome to Residence Agenda Radio. Today I'm joined by Brittany Polat. Brittany is a Stoic, former academic and mother of three. She's a huge part of the Stoic renaissance. She's the author of journal like a Stoic and a book which we're gonna talk about a lot today called Tranquility Parenting. She is based in Florida and we're so grateful for you to be with us today, Brittany. Tell us.

How did you get caught up in Stoicism? And we're gonna have this wonderful chat today about parenting and Stoic principles. And I think a lot of it is actually not about parenting at all, it's about how we look after our own emotions and how we respond to things. But how did you get caught up in Stoicism?

Brittany Polat (00:50.047)
Great point. Yeah. Thank you for having me on. I'm really happy to be here with you. So it actually parenting and Stoicism are very much intertwined for me because I became a Stoic after I became a parent, soon after I became a parent. And you might say that my kids are what made me a Stoic. I was looking for kind of a life philosophy that could help me, like you said, manage my own emotions and provide a good upbringing for my children. And you know, I

I didn't really have a firm foundation to stand on. I had gotten by, you know, in most of my adult life, just fine without really thinking things through very clearly without developing a philosophy of life. And then all of a sudden, boom, you know, here I am with three kids. We had just moved to a new city for my husband's job. I didn't have any support, you know, no family or friends. I had just left my academic career. So I was feeling a lot of life transitions. And then here I am.

how do I take care of these three little kids? So I started looking, like most people, I looked at some self-help options, I looked at some spirituality options like Buddhism, but what really spoke to me was one day when I just went on Amazon, I literally typed in wisdom in the search box and some different books came up. And one of those was William Irvin's A Guide to the Good Life. So that was my first book on Stoicism. I read it.

I was blown away by all of the wisdom it contained and I continued to read as so many people do. I read Seneca, I read a book by Donald Robertson who I know you've had on the podcast as well. And so it just built up from there and I've just never really stopped. I just kept going. It helped me so much.

Hadleigh Fischer (02:32.886)
Why do we need a philosophy of life? And for people who haven't chosen one, what is the default philosophy of life that you had or that many people have, which gets them in trouble emotionally or in terms of it might sabotage their success?

Brittany Polat (02:50.407)
Yeah, well, I think what William Irvin says, and I tend to agree with this, is we all have kind of a hedonism, just kind of a default hedonism that our culture kind of encourages. You know, in Western cultures, we have so much material abundance. And so we kind of take for granted all of these things that 500 years ago would have been, you know, only kings would have had or not even, right? Electricity, hot water coming out of your tap, you know, food on demand, all of these things.

And so we just get so used to it and we forget, you know, we forget what really matters in life. So I think the default in our culture is to just, you know, we're kind of on autopilot. We go from school to university, to a career. We're always kind of building. We're looking at these external things, external accomplishments, buying the bigger house, you know, going on the better vacation. And I think a lot of people do continue on this path until maybe something happens to make them stop and think, oh gosh, you know, what is this all about?

It could be like me where you have kids and you need to reorient. Could be a career change, kind of a midlife crisis. It could be an illness or a bereavement or some kind of difficulty, which, you know, we all know these things happen to everyone in life. So I think those kinds of things make people pause and look around and say, Hey, there's got to be something deeper. You know, there's got to be something more to life than just the next promotion or the next, you know, iPhone that's coming out, whatever it is. And so.

when you're ready, there's the old saying, when the student is ready, the teacher appears, right? So you can look around, and there are many different wisdom traditions available. I don't think that Stoicism is the only one, but it's the one that works best for me, and it's the one that I'm excited to share with people.

Hadleigh Fischer (04:33.974)
All right, I love that answer. We're gonna get to Stoicism in a moment, but your book, which I loved, is called Tranquility Parenting. These two words are not usually connected. So what is Tranquility Parenting? And where did it come from? Why did you call it that? And give us a bit of a brief intro as to how we'll get there, and then we'll unpack it a little bit.

Brittany Polat (04:58.495)
Right, sure. Well, Tranquility Parenting is my thinly disguised version of Stoic parenting. So it is something that I wrote when I was kind of early in my Stoic journey, thinking really hard about how to apply Stoicism to what I was doing in my life and as a parent. And so basically, you know, after practicing Stoicism for what, seven or eight years now, I can say, you can apply Stoic principles to any area of life. And so in this book,

I just kind of dig specifically into how to apply it to your children. So for example, the dichotomy of control is one of the most well-known kind of maxims of Stoicism, right? Focus on what's up to you, not what you can't control. And obviously with children, you know, there are so many things that you cannot control with those kids. I think we kind of have the illusion that parents are supposed to control their kids or, you know, supposed to decide what your kids do.

and that parents can, you know, force their kids to do something is kind of the idea that a lot of people have. Well, guess what? You don't control your kids. It becomes very obvious. I mean, the moment you have a screaming infant in your arms, you cannot get to be quiet. You understand that you don't control your kids. What you do control is how you react to your kids and to an extent the environment that you can create for your kids. Now, obviously,

as your child grows, even that you have less say in, right? What sorts of environments they're exposed to, the sorts of friends they have, and eventually they leave you completely and you have no say or very little say, I should say. So all of these things really bring home the idea that we can influence our children. We can be a good role model, which of course is one of the most important things, I would say, as far as tranquility parenting or Stoic parenting.

is to be a good role model and to show what does virtue look like. So this is the first time I've mentioned virtue. So I just want to kind of explain for a moment, anyone who isn't readily familiar with the Stoic meaning of virtue, which is excellence, right? It's not kind of like the old fashioned, prudish idea of virtue. It's excellence being the best that a human can be. Right. So the best of our rationality, the best of our sociability, all of these things that make humans

Brittany Polat (07:19.635)
that kind of set us apart and make us who we are, this is what we want to display. So this is what virtue means. It's excellence in courage, in self-control or temperance, in justice, and then in good judgment in knowing what's important in life, right? So all of these are things that we can role model for our kids, but we don't get to actually control them.

Hadleigh Fischer (07:42.102)
Okay.

You touched on it, but one of my friends have kids. We're staying with a three-year-old and a one-year-old at the moment. So I'm learning about this myself at the moment, and hopefully we'll be having kids ourselves in the future, where we can actually practise some of this in the school life. But you hear about the lack of sleep, the nose, the tantrums, the screen time, the juggle with work and family life. Why is parenting stressful? Is it because of what our kids do?

Brittany Polat (08:00.511)
Yeah.

Hadleigh Fischer (08:13.918)
Is it because of our expectations of them? Let's just set the scene as to why we need these tools and why parenting is such a big challenge.

Brittany Polat (08:24.651)
Right, well, of course, in some ways, parenting has always been stressful, but I do think it is more stressful right now than it has ever been in the past. There's this intense pressure for parents to get their kids on the right start in life. And sometimes it goes by the name of helicopter parenting where parents, they call the teacher instead of allowing their child to talk to the teacher for themselves. They try to just basically take control of the child's life or do too much for the child so that the child's autonomy is stifled and the child doesn't learn those important skills, those important social skills and life skills of, sometimes things happen that you have to deal with. And so this kind of intensive parenting is really popular in the West, I would say. And it's not good for the child, it's also not good for the parent, and it's not good for the relationship. So one thing that I've learned, my oldest daughter is 11 now.

So one thing that I've learned in the past 11 years is that it's all about building that relationship with your child, right? You want them to know that you support them, that you're there for them, but that you're gonna let them live their life and make some of their own choices and make some of their own mistakes that you're not hovering over them. So I think what philosophy and what Stoicism in particular helps us do is to strike that right balance between.

giving your child autonomy, but also a sense of security and being there when they need it. And it's a very, very difficult balance. It changes as your child grows, obviously. The way you treat a two-year-old is quite different from a 12-year-old. So I think philosophy can help us to use good judgment along that path that you walk together with your child.

Hadleigh Fischer (10:06.69)
And so to build that relationship, what do parents stress about spending enough time with their kids? These days, it's not just the mum always staying at home and the dad's not always working five days a week. Often there's blended arrangements, grandparents are involved, and parents stress about not spending enough time with their kids. Is that the arbiter of success as a parent, or is it more about quality time? Or I heard someone the other day say, it doesn't actually matter.

whether the time's quality or not, it's just spending some time with them and doing life with them or separately with them. Are we missing the point by stressing about that too much?

Brittany Polat (10:46.743)
That's a great question. I would say it is the quality of the time, but maybe not in the sense that a lot of people mean. I think when a lot of people say quality time, they have this idea like you have to go on vacation with your child or it has to be some perfect afternoon where you're both buying ice cream and feeling blissful the whole time. And I don't think that's necessarily what quality time is in a very deep connection between parent and child. I think quality time means...

They see you in real life and how you handle things. They see you experiencing adverse situations and how you handle that, right? So I think quality time, you don't have to, you know, pay a lot of money or make fancy plans to do something. It's just sitting at home on a rainy afternoon with your child and your child says, I'm bored. And then you say, I'm bored too. What are we gonna do? You know? And so in those every day, those small interactions,

That's where you build the relationship with your child. And that's where you model for your child how to live a real life, not a Disney-fied version of life, right? So that quality time is just you being real, you being real and really you.

Hadleigh Fischer (11:58.71)
like that. So I'm living with a three year old and a one year old at the moment. I'm also working and you know I'm not in my own environment. I'm staying with friends as I record this. And you know building that relationship I'm finding it a challenge to be present and engaged with little Jonty but also to set boundaries around when and where I work. You know I come down from

waking up and they're already making breakfast and they want to play and I try my best to spend half an hour with them but I've got to get off to work and I imagine this is what parenting is and I'm just sort of coming into it both without the control of being the parent, I'm just the hopefully the good uncle but there's no routine there. So how do we be present? Because I think that's what a lot of people miss.

they might be with their kids, but they're elsewhere. That's the definition of being present. You're thinking about something you regretted, something your boss said, something your partner said, you're worrying about money or where you're going for your next holiday. You're not actually where you are. How does Stoicism help us build that? And how does it borrow from say, the Buddhist traditions of just doing what you're doing in the moment and just being there?

Brittany Polat (13:20.307)
Yeah, interesting question. And I'll just say that a lot of parents are worried about their children not being present on screens and things like that. But studies actually show that children are very concerned about the amount of time their parents spend on screens. And they often report, I mean, when researchers ask teens and children, they say that their parents are often distracted by their phones. So I would say the very first place to start is put your phone away. Have a designated time in the evening. If you're eating dinner together,

definitely have a no screens rule at the dinner table. Or whenever you have that quote unquote quality time that we were just talking about, have a rule that you put your phone on, do not disturb. That's just the easiest way, the place to start with being present and spending quality time. And I would say that Stoicism can help us to let go of all those things that we can't control at the moment. If you're at home,

you know, you can't control what's going on at the office. If you are at home, you can't control what's happening on the stock market, for example. So just really letting those things go and enjoying and appreciating what you have. So for me, the key to being present, especially with my children, is enjoying them and just pausing and saying, what an amazing little creature this is, you know? Two eyes.

two legs, whatever, a bubbling mind that's just overflowing with questions and enthusiasm and wonder for the world. Let's just enjoy this together. So I think really feeling keenly that sense of enjoyment is kind of the secret sauce for being present.

Hadleigh Fischer (15:04.602)
I like that. I mean, watching a kid learn something, like how to figure out a puzzle. It's just like, how do they do it? And it's that's, that's fascinating. So the next question I want to ask is a two part question, and you can answer whichever part you like first. And it's when your kid loses it when they're having a meltdown. What is your self talk in the moment? When you're, you know, aware enough and monitoring what's going on?

in yourself and hopefully that's a key part of it. But what pre-work have you done? Ryan Holiday talks about the concept of pre-meditalia mori which is the foreseeing of evils. You know that kids will have meltdowns and he talks about how the surprise of the meltdown and the fact that it shouldn't be adds to the stress and the drama of it. So what is your self-talk in the moment?

And how have you prepared for that? And where do these Stoic principles fit into all that?

Brittany Polat (16:05.811)
Yeah, so I'll reverse that and I'll talk about the pre-work first because I do find that that's the most important. I would say probably 90% of my success in being calm with my kids is done before I ever need it. It's that important. So if you don't already have a morning practice, a morning routine, excuse me, where you can prepare your mind for the day and do that pre-meditatio malorum.

I would definitely recommend that. Now for parents, I always hated it when I had a baby and two toddlers at home and people would say, take time to meditate, take time for yourself because I didn't have time. I just didn't have time. Children are so physically demanding, changing diapers, doing the feedings. And then I was so exhausted, I didn't have time to get out of meditation cushion and sit for 15 minutes. So what I did is I started finding ways to integrate this

practice into my morning routine and evening routine. So I always recommend to extremely busy parents, do it while you're brushing your teeth, right? You have two minutes in the morning, you have two minutes in the evening, where you're gonna be standing there with your toothbrush. Let that be a signal for you to reflect on in the morning, okay, what do I need to prepare for today? Do we have a doctor's appointment where I could expect to melt down? Or, you know, what's going on in life today that I need to be ready for? And then in the evening, think about, okay,

You know, how did I do today when my daughter had a meltdown? How did I respond? How can I do better next time? So just take two minutes. Everybody has two minutes. Don't make it into some huge thing if you don't have the time to do that. If you do have the time, great. My kids are older now, so I have a lot more time where I can sit and think about these things. But I think everybody can find a way to do that. Now the second, or the first part of your question was, what do you do in the moment?

Well, I'll talk about the most difficult thing, which is when you're in public, right? You're in the grocery store, your child wants candy, which they conveniently put right in front of kids' eye level in the checkout aisle. So your kids see it every time you go by, and your kid has a meltdown because you won't buy a candy bar for him. So what do you do? Well, I think first of all, we have to manage that social...

Brittany Polat (18:29.963)
kind of anxiety that we have that we're being judged by other adults. Because I think that's, that's the biggest problem in that scenario, right? It's not actually you and your child. It's you and your relationship with all of the adults around you. So when this happened to me, I would have to first remind myself that, you know, I am not doing anything wrong here. I cannot control, you know, I'm not inside my child's mind controlling his body right now.

I am doing my absolute best to get him to calm down, but I'm not a bad person for this. And if somebody is glaring at you, then that person is not being, you know, the best, kindest person. And their opinion doesn't matter to me. If they're that kind of person, I'm just not going to count their opinion. Most people will feel sympathetic and they'll remember when they were there or they'll be like, oh gosh, I wish I could help. But you know, maybe it's too awkward for them to ask. Most people will feel sympathy with you.

get yourself past that social anxiety so that you can focus on you and your child. There are different strategies for how you handle the tantrum. I would just say, you know, you can use different strategies. We don't have to go into all of that right now, but I would say make sure that you are remembering virtue and what you want to teach your child. For example, if you want to teach moderation and temperance, don't give in to the candy bar.

Maybe if they earned a reward for that day, you can go ahead and buy one. But anyway, that was kind of a long answer, but there's a lot going on in that situation. So it does take a lot of practice to get all those moving pieces together.

Hadleigh Fischer (20:06.766)
We will unpack that, but I like that. And the grocery store is one that comes to mind. The enclosed spaces of an airplane is probably a level of stress above because you can't just remove yourself from the situation. I find that it tends to be older guys that may not have spent as much time around their toddlers that seem to be the ones that glare the most. And the sympathy part's a good one. I'll come back to some of these really practical strategies in a moment, but...

Donald Robinson calls resilience the holy grail of mental health and Becky Kennedy who's very popular on Instagram at the moment has a lot of really great ways of talking about parenting Says when your parent talk about resilience over happiness, you know What a parents all they talk about is I want my kid to be happy and I want to give them everything I want the best for them. They don't hear them talking about

I want my child to be resilient. I want my child to cope with difficulty well. You just don't hear this kind of language. And I think partly it's because the parents themselves understand a version of happiness and think that's what they want for their kids. But most adults can't really get their emotions. How do we expect our kids to? So what do you think of this idea of resilience over happiness, which I was talking about it with my wife yesterday. Once that's the frame.

saying no and denying the candy bar or taking away the screen, it's for the best. And you might've temporarily made them unhappy, but that's what's in their best interest. What do you think of that idea?

Brittany Polat (21:46.003)
Yeah, I would agree with that. And I tend to, in my work that I do with Stoicare, which is my nonprofit organization, we tend to talk about wellbeing. And I think that resilience is a big part of wellbeing. So I'm sure your audience knows that the ancient Greeks had kind of a broader conception of happiness that they called eudaimonia. So it wasn't just being happy in the moment, it wasn't just an emotion, it was a condition. It was how you live your life. And you could,

be said to be happy if you were respected and upright and had integrity and this kind of thing. So we've kind of lost that sense of happiness in life today. We tend to think, oh, I got a promotion, I'm happy, or I'm eating ice cream, I'm happy. And obviously this kind of happiness goes up and down. It's very dependent on external circumstances. It's not always in your control. So if that's your idea of happiness, you're gonna be unhappy quite a lot. So.

We want to go back to the ancient Greek conception of eudaimonia, which I think really maps pretty well onto the current understanding of wellbeing. And resilience is a big part of this because we all know there are going to be those ups and downs in life. There are going to be times when you have to do something hard. You have to make a hard decision. You have to face criticism. You have to face illness or adversity. And so absolutely, if you are not prepared to face those things, you can't really have a happy life.

Hadleigh Fischer (23:13.57)
Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah.

Hadleigh Fischer (23:20.846)
That's such a good point. So Jonathan Haidt has got a new movie out. This is April 2024 called The Coddling of the American Mind. And it's based on a book called The Coddling of the American Mind where he says the way we're raising kids as a culture where, you know, what doesn't kill us makes us weaker, you know, the opposite of the old ancient wisdom. And, you know, the kids can't, you know, trust themselves to cope in different situations. He talks about

how as a culture we're not doing our kids any favours. Does that make what we're talking about today harder or impossible? And how do you see things at a social level and the way our culture is influencing both the definition of success, but also the definition of successful parenting?

Brittany Polat (24:12.883)
Yeah, I think absolutely our culture makes it harder. And I see Stoicism actually as very counter-cultural for that reason and because it's anti-materialist and that kind of thing. So yes, in a way we are, we do have to stand strong against the prevailing winds of the culture, what's encouraging us to do. So I think we have to be really consistent in our own reasoning. We have to be...

really confident in our own judgment in order to stand firm. So I'll give the example of screens. Screens are kind of a battleground, especially when your kids get older. And as you know from, you know, the coddling of the American mind and all of his work, screens are really detrimental to children's mental and a lot of times physical health as well. So my kids have an hour of screen time.

A lot of their friends have their own phones, they can spend unlimited screen time. And this is a conversation that I have almost every day with my 11-year-old daughter as to why she doesn't get her own smartphone. All of her friends have a smartphone. She's the only person she knows who doesn't have one. And so I have presented the research to her. She's old enough to understand some of the graphs and charts about the, you know, the negative correlation between age when you get your phone.

and mental health. So we have that conversation quite a lot. As far as resilience, I think we can use examples from movies and fiction because there are still a lot of those around, you know, the Star Wars franchise, especially the older movies. I think Harry Potter is great. A lot of kids love Harry Potter. So you can use fictional heroes to show how resilience, you know, is

is an admirable trait and it's something that everybody needs. So I think if you're able to read with your child and a lot of children's books actually have these lessons as well, some of the classic children's works, there are some newer ones as well. So I think if you find the right books to read to your child, you know, watch a movie together with them and you can talk through these things. I'm a big proponent of talking with your child as much as possible, you know, looking for those teachable moments.

Brittany Polat (26:29.535)
where you can, you know, you're not giving a lecture, you're just saying, oh, what did you think of that? Oh, okay, why? And you know, just gently giving some hints maybe or guiding the conversation in a really light-handed way. So looking for those teachable moments and you know, when something happens, when they fall off their bike, you know, you don't overreact. You allow the child to experience the emotion and then you encourage them to get back up, right? So it's in those everyday moments, I think where we can kind of

You know, we don't have to stand on a podium and shout. It's just in the gentle everyday interactions.

Hadleigh Fischer (27:04.214)
Yeah, I love that. My next question in my notes was going to be, a parent's words become a child's self-talk. What do the Stoics need to impart? And you gave a surprising but really cool answer by saying the words of Harry Potter or the example of Harry Potter. I actually remembered what I was going to ask you but the question before about, when we're talking about Jonathan Haidt. It's quite trendy these days and it's a big part of,

I guess the millennial and Gen-Z worldview. And also, a lot of workplaces are encouraging a greater sensitivity to feelings and mental health. And when people use the term mental health, they mean often mental illness, which is not how we use the term at Resilience Agenda, but nevertheless, feelings and emotions are under that category. And one of Jonathan Haidt's...

really key points, which is a huge part of cognitive behavioral therapy, which is built, of course, on Stoicism, huge part of the mental fitness concept, is this idea that feelings are not facts. Thoughts are not facts. Just because you had a thought or a feeling doesn't make it true. It's more of a suggestion or an alarm, kind of like the alarm goes off in the kitchen. Yes, your house might be burning down, but it's probably more likely that the total

or something like that. I like that metaphor. But on the other hand, there's encouragement to validate children's feelings and to validate identities and different views that people have which probably needs to come a long way from silence and stigma and judgment. So there's no, I'm not saying it's all bad, but how does tranquility parenting in your worldview see

Hadleigh Fischer (29:01.156)
what Jonathan Haidt and other therapists might call emotional reasoning, which is to infer logic or infer facts from how you feel, when in fact they're just really transient signals.

Brittany Polat (29:16.331)
Right. Well, I think that what we're seeing now is a valid reaction to what we saw in the early 20th century, for example. If you read parenting manuals from the 1920s, they basically say, oh, ignore your child when they cry. So it was way too far in one direction at that time. And I think we've come too far in the other direction now. So what tranquility parenting, what Stoicism encourages us to do.

is to have a guide star, which is virtue, right? So we're not necessarily making this up as we go along. We want to turn to this idea of, you know, what is the best human life? What does it mean to be an excellent person? What do I want my children to grow towards? The Stoics actually have a really interesting concept of human development, which I won't go into in detail right now, but if you're interested in that, I talk about it a little bit in the book.

and they were very early psychologists, I'm always amazed by their insights into human psychology. And of course, that's one thing that doesn't change, right? Our basic human psychology. So, you know, I think the Stoics had some very valid things to say about the path of moral development over the lifetime, over the lifespan. And one thing that sets Stoicism apart is the belief that you can change over your lifetime. There are some philosophies, for example, Aristotle, who believed that

Children's education is so important because their character is basically set in childhood, right? Whereas the Stoics do believe moral education is important, but they allow that you can continue to develop throughout your life. So there's a lot of flexibility and a lot of practical suggestions for how to do that. Yeah. So I don't know if I answered your question or...

Hadleigh Fischer (31:04.498)
The themes do come through and it sounds like the Stoics understood neuroplasticity as well, you know, 2000 years before it came out. You mentioned what's in our control and what's not in our control before. Can you just dive a bit deeper on that a little bit? You know, I like to use the trichotomy of control. Some things are within our control, some things are not within our control, and some things are within our influence.

Brittany Polat (31:09.461)
Okay.

Hadleigh Fischer (31:31.618)
but are not ultimately in our control. You know, the classic example is the weather. You can't control what the weather is or what it's gonna be. You can influence what the weather does to you by where you go, whether you go outside, what you wear. And you can ultimately influence the weather by, you know, how you feel about it. If it's cold and you were going to the beach, you'd be annoyed. If it's cold and you're going to the snow,

you'd be happy and just that mindset shift that we get to choose every moment of the day is just such a powerful concept. Can you apply that to parenting and maybe, use the trichotomy example if you can to elaborate an example, whether it's screen time or a meltdown or something that might have happened to you recently, because it's so easy to say, oh yeah, just let go of what is not in your control. But it's a lot harder to.

do and people don't actually do it. And I think the reason is that so many things.

are actually within our circle of influence. There's something we can do, but we can't put our finger on what it is. And so we run up against frustration because we, you know, we don't notice the barriers or the, or the distinction between out of our control completely and somewhat in our influence. Can you talk us through that?

Brittany Polat (32:57.927)
Yeah, I think this one is actually really hard because we have the illusion of control in so much of our lives these days. You know, at no point in history have we had control over, you know, how fast we go. We have a car. We can go 10 miles an hour. We can go 60 miles an hour or 100 miles an hour. Before people just had their legs, right? You know, we can control to an extent the temperature in our homes. So we have this illusion of control. I think that we can control a lot more.

than we actually can. We feel like, oh, we should be able to change that. We should be able to modify the world to our tastes. And actually, this is not true in so many ways. Like you put it, we can influence things, but we don't have complete control. I actually really like that way of looking at things, the trichotomy of control. There are some purists who say, oh no, you have to keep a dichotomy. That's what the ancient Stoics said. That's what Epictetus said. But I really like the innovation of looking at the trichotomy of control.

Well, you can't control what college your child gets into, that's for sure. So I think this is actually a little bit harder as your child gets older and they move further outside of your sphere of influence or sphere of control. So when my kids first started school, this was really hard for me to deal with because, you know, your kid is at school all day. You literally can't control what they're doing. All you can do is prepare them to go.

And then, you know, when they get home, debrief them and try to prepare them for the next day. You have no control over what they do at school. If they hit another child, you know, that's not up to you. Or my favorite example, when my son, my middle son started second grade, on the first day of school, they all put together this class constitution. You know, they were all coming up with rules everybody else had to follow. And he refused to sign the constitution.

there was some rule that he didn't like, so he just decided not to. So I got an email from the teacher, I've never seen this before, I don't know what to do. So, you know, that was not within my control what my son did on the first day of second grade. Now when he got home, it was in my control how I reacted to that and that I encouraged him to go back the next day and sign the constitution, right? So I think it's a real testing ground when you have your kids.

Brittany Polat (35:20.399)
outside of your, you know, you can't even talk to them. You can't see what they're doing. That's a real testing ground of your ability to not control them. When they're little and at home, I think it's more tempting to think you can control their actions. And in fact, you do have more influence when they're right there with you, right? So, but we just have to keep that in mind that you are not actually controlling their body. You are influencing. And I think shifting that mindset, like you were talking about.

Thinking of influence instead of control enables you to be more creative and more responsive to them because you're focusing on, okay, what can I do? Can I choose a different way to present this to them? Can I say something different? Can I have a positive or negative reinforcement? So it throws it back on you instead of focusing on what the child is doing. You're thinking, how can I respond to this?

Hadleigh Fischer (36:12.322)
I love that. In the book, you talk about parenting philosophy and we of course started with that and then you give some examples. I just wanted to bring up a few phrases that Stoics talk about. Negative emotions, you know, on the one hand, there's the happy clappy positive thinking crowd these days that won't allow you to have any negative emotions, you know, the good vibes only, which is probably toxic and not actually that helpful. And then of course,

you know, there's the skills of that. But one of the concepts from Stoicism I love is the concept of the preferred indifferent. You know, so many of us want and need and it's related to control. You know, if I don't have this, I'll be unhappy. Or if my kids don't get into that college, their life is over. Talk us through what a preferred indifferent is and how that concept helps you.

deal with things not going your way, and are kids ready for that concept?

Brittany Polat (37:17.287)
Yeah, so really it all goes back to values. Stoicism is a system of values. So, you know, as a human, what is it, you know, what is the best way to be happy as a human to live as an excellent and flourishing human being? Well, it's to focus on virtue, like we were saying before on that rationality and sociability. It's not to focus on money. It's not to focus on climbing the corporate ladder, right? Those things are distractions or we could use the term indifference.

They are not required for a good life. You can live a good life. You can be a good person and be happy, living in a fishing hut by the sea, right? You don't have to get that promotion in order to be happy. And we get so far away from that, with our modern lifestyle and all the pressure to achieve and to acquire more and to build our resume or our CV, whatever we're doing, we face this pressure all the time. In Stoic terms,

All of those things are indifference. They are not required for us to be a good person or to be happy. So you can always ask yourself, would Socrates or Epictetus or whoever your philosophical hero is mentor, we just did a conference on role models and we talked about some females as well, Hipparchia and Hypatia, who could be role models from the ancient world. So what would my role model do? Would they have to...

get this promotion or have this new car in order to be happy? The answer is no. They could live a good life and so can I. Sometimes we think, oh, you know, well, it was different for them, but it wasn't. If you read Seneca talking about all of the luxuries of the ancient world in Rome, I mean, they were pretty much just as coddled and, you know, desperate for status and luxuries as people today. So

It's not exactly a new challenge, even though in some ways it's intensified with social media, it enables us to compare ourselves more readily to others, but the thing itself is not new, it's just intensified today. So all of these things in Stoic terms, they're not necessary for our happiness. They can be preferred or dis-preferred, right? So money, for example, is an indifferent, because you can do great things with money. You can, you know, you can build a library with a million dollars.

Brittany Polat (39:42.359)
Or you could do terrible things. You could fund a war with money, right? So it's not the thing in itself that's good or bad, it's the use we make of it. And this is a very famous line from Epictetus.

Hadleigh Fischer (39:52.642)
Yeah. What about the people and I'm thinking of a couple of my best friends as I say this, who might be thinking, this all sounds great, but my child has autism. My child has an intellectual disability. My child has a physical disability. My child, you know, my life's just harder than yours. You know, you sound like you're pretty good. You're doing fine. Yeah. Okay. Your kids sleep through the night. You know, it's more difficult for me because my kids have autism and

you know, for the kids who I've seen who have that, you know, it's challenges. And you mentioned the sociability of kids before. Yeah, that's the issue. So if you had this pushback before to your message and how do you respond to that potential pushback?

Brittany Polat (40:41.387)
Well, I know a lot of parents who do have children with special needs who use Stoicism. So there are a lot of people, we have an online community called Stoic Parents on Facebook. You know, people that I've talked with, just engaged with at different events. This is a philosophy that applies really well, maybe especially well when your family has those extra challenges. My brother has a son with autism, so they are able to apply these principles as well. So yeah.

The wonderful thing about a system of ethics is that it's flexible, right? So you can apply it whatever your particular situation is, whatever your particular challenges is, challenges are, excuse me. So, you know, if somebody had specific questions, you know, my child has this challenge, how would I deal with it? You know, I would be happy to correspond with them. They can find me on my social channels or at my website, Stoicare. It is kind of a situation by situation thing, but I will say,

the same principles can be applied maybe just at a more intense level, right? When you have to deal with those extra challenges, you're going to have to apply it maybe for more years or in a more intense way. But I think the principles themselves will always be valid.

Hadleigh Fischer (41:59.79)
That's a good point. Let's talk about one of the, well, other than the circle of control, but another key cognitive principle from Epictetus. It's not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters. How can parents model constructive responses to both adversity, but also uncertainty for their children? Because I think, as more and more people are reporting and talking about being anxious, I mean, I think the world's always

been anxiety inducing. But it seems like more of our anxieties these days are unknowable. So you might have a child and 18 years from now, you've got to work out whether your child gets into a good college. What's 18 years of worry and things out of your control? So beyond the circle of control concept we just talked about, beyond the preferred indifference, how else can parents model or think about constructive ways to adversity or uncertainty?

Brittany Polat (42:57.031)
Yeah, well, I would say if you do have, if you suspect that you might have an actual mental health issue such as anxiety or depression, I would say definitely seek help for that in addition to turning to Stoicism. So I don't think Stoicism would necessarily be a substitute for getting treatment. So I just wanna make sure everybody knows that. Definitely go see a professional for those types of experiences.

Just regular anxiety, I would say Stoicism can help us. I mean, this is kind of an unpopular answer, but by helping us understand the nature of the world, right? This is kind of suddenly we go cosmic here, but the world is full of difficulties. That's life. No one is ever gonna take that away. The world is full of uncertainties. So I think zooming out and taking that larger perspective, we're getting outside of our own.

small egos, our own small experience of the world and saying, hey, there are 8 billion other people who are feeling like this now. You know, during COVID, everybody was afraid, right? So you can get outside of your own skin. You can get outside of your own temper tantrum that your three-year-old is having. That's one thing that helped me when my kids were little is thinking, okay, there are probably thousands of other parents feeling just like I am right now. I'm not alone, right?

parenting can actually be a really isolating experience. And like you said, parents of children with special needs, that can feel very isolating as well. So I think the more you can understand that you are just having a human experience and that you are experiencing things similar, maybe not identical, but very similar to what other people are going through. And that helps take the pressure off of you. You feel like, ah, okay, there's nothing wrong with me. It's not about me, right? Getting outside of your own ego.

So I think Stoicism can help us to take that cosmic perspective. A lot of times it's called the view from above. This is a well-known exercise in Stoicism, but it really does help to get outside of your own problem in that moment.

Hadleigh Fischer (45:02.374)
Absolutely. I think social media, our culture, coming back to that theme again, does this to us. People, and I've spoken to people about this, given resilience and mental health is my field. People think they're uniquely messed up. They think they're the first person who's, at least in their group, and maybe that is true in their group, but in the context of the world, well, it's their first marriage breakup. It might be the first marriage breakup in their group.

it's not the first marriage breakup in the world. You know, you might be the only child with special needs kids or the only parent with special needs kids. Maybe you're the only one in your group, but this has happened before. And is that enough to say that all that helps when the problems are right in front of you?

Brittany Polat (45:50.451)
Again, it's something that takes practice. And that's why I mentioned earlier that a lot of my success in the moment actually happens before that moment. I'm sure you and other people have a similar experience where it's that preparation that you put in before you need it. And then when you need it, you are very thankful that you have prepared yourself for it. So I would say with this cosmic perspective, it's the same thing, taking five minutes in the morning to say, okay.

I'm not alone, I'm part of the greater world here. Or like Marcus Aurelius, he has some beautiful meditations where he says, think about all of the emperors who came before me, you know, all of the marriages and births and everything that's going on in the world right now at the same time. You know, it just helps us, it literally puts things in perspective. It's a different way of looking at things. And all I can say is it helps me and it helps a lot of other people. So I would encourage people

to try that, you know, maybe not in the moment. It's very difficult if you haven't prepared. It's very difficult to do it in the moment. So try to do these things before you need them and then it'll be a lot easier, you know, during those critical moments.

Hadleigh Fischer (47:03.694)
bringing kids up in privilege? These days kids and their parents have more stuff, bigger houses, you've mentioned iPhones before, better toys. I was walking the other day with a friend and he said, well, when my kids ask me something, I can't just say we can't afford it anymore, because they know that dad's got plenty of money and they live in a big house. And so, you know, you've got to find another answer. So what do the Stoics say about wealth in general, bearing in

you know, the examples we often use were not always down on their knees. Some of them were at times very poor and at times very wealthy. So a lot of people use that as a disqualifying argument, which I don't. But how do you apply that to your own life and to kids? And I guess it's the concept of desire, which is another key Stoic principle.

Brittany Polat (47:52.487)
Yeah, but-

Brittany Polat (47:59.763)
Right. Yeah. So again, money, wealth, all of those external things, it's an indifferent. It's not a good or a bad. So it's what we do with it. It's how we respond to it that matters. So I would say most parents, even affluent parents, don't want their kids to be spoiled, right? We may not always know how to achieve that, but we don't want our kids to be that spoiled brat, you know, who pitches a fit every time they can't get what they want. So I would say...

When your kids are old enough, explicitly talk to them about your values toward money and say, money is something that we use to buy things that we need. It's what we use to help other people. It's not something that we use to get everything we want. I would encourage parents to be very explicit in talking about this. With younger kids, with a three or four year old, you probably can't do that, but you can say, you can say, oh, we're not gonna have that right now. You...

you already have five teddy bears, you don't need another one. And just, you know, reinforce the idea that they don't get everything they want. So when it comes to desires, they can understand that just because you want something doesn't mean that you need it or that you're always going to get it from your parents. I think sometimes people feel guilty. We kind of talked about this a little bit earlier in terms of quality time. A lot of parents feel guilty that they can't spend enough time with their kids.

And a lot of parents feel guilty that they either are giving their kids too much or not enough that they can't give their kids what they want or what their peers have. And I would just remind everyone that guilt, you know, there's no need to feel guilty. If you are doing your best as a parent, if you are adhering to your values, that's your legacy to your child is that sense of integrity, that resilience, you know, we're about building character. So your job is to pass.

on a good character to your kids. It's not to give them XYZ or to not give them XYZ. It's to teach them what is appropriate for someone in their position. So whether you have a lot of money or you don't have a lot of money, it's to do what's appropriate for you in that situation. Seneca obviously had a lot of money. He was one of the wealthiest men in the Roman Empire when he was alive.

Brittany Polat (50:17.895)
On the other hand, you have people like Musonius Rufus and Epictetus who lived very, very minimally. So it's not necessarily that you have to adopt one lifestyle or the other. Although I personally try to adopt some minimalist principles in my life and in parenting, it's difficult when you have kids because there's so much pressure to buy things. When you have a baby, there's so much gear that you feel like you have to buy.

You know, when your kids are older, they've got the sports equipment, they've got all the toys. It's easy to have just an explosion of things in your home. So I find that minimalism is a good guide, even if we're not completely minimalist, obviously, I mean, we have toys and things like that, but it's a good guide. And you let your children know the principles that you're living by.

Hadleigh Fischer (51:07.31)
the major benefit of doing all this work and typing in wisdom into Amazon boys years ago? What have you avoided? How are your children and your relationship with your partner? How is your life better? What's the why? We've talked about a lot of the how and the what during this chat, but what's the point? Is it worth it? How would you answer that question? I'm too busy to start kind of thing. Why?

What are the big benefits you've seen, maybe with some practical examples?

Brittany Polat (51:41.319)
Yeah, great question. Well, happiness. I mean, we were kind of making light of the term of happiness earlier, but when I'm talking about happiness, I mean a deep happiness, not kind of the frivolous or superficial happiness, but the rich, deep, long lasting happiness that the ancient Greeks called eudaimonia. This is what we want. It's a sense of a meaningful and good life. It's a sense of fulfilling your potential as a person, of fulfilling your responsibilities toward the people that you love.

This is a good life. This is what we as humans, this is how we flourish. So flourishing is a word that some people use. This is the goal of philosophy. It's the goal of all this hard work of virtue, of discipline, of getting up every morning, of controlling your thoughts. This is what we're after, is this happiness. Again, it's not necessarily that emotion. It's not an elation. The ancient Stoics actually criticized.

like a giddy delight as not real happiness. That would be a kind of a false emotion. But it's that deep, steady mindset. It's that attitude of living a good life and doing things, whether that's the job or an avocation of some sort that enrich not only you, but the people around you. So I think this is what we're going for. And you mentioned your life with your partner. This is extremely important as well.

you know, to make sure that you're both on the same page as far as what you want out of life, that you want this deep, rich, meaningful life and not something superficial. And it's something we can impart to our children as well.

Hadleigh Fischer (53:21.186)
Yeah, you talked about that superficial notion of happiness. I mean, one of the core messages that we're trying to impart at Residence Agenda through the mental fitness message is that you can have problems and still be happy. You can have problems and have this sense of, wow, I'm dealing with these really well. You know, look at it at me. I can be proud of this, which is a really satisfying feeling you can take with you.

you know, like a happy life or a flourishing life is not an absence of problems. Ideally, there are, you know, as Tony Robbins says, quality problems and you know, lower quality problems, you want to have high quality problems, but you know, having kids having a business to run, you know, having, you know, lots of relationships, they're all going to have problems. Hopefully, they're good ones.

Hadleigh Fischer (54:14.486)
What do you make of the Stoic Renaissance? And I guess you're a part of it. And I imagine it's a big part of your life. And you've probably thought about this and the work of people like Donald Robinson and more particularly Ryan Hobartay, for example.

Talk us through the times needing a message, and I still don't think it's cut through, particularly with women. Talk us through this renaissance of Stoicism, where it's at, some of the work you're doing with Stoicare and modern Stoicism and some of these organizations that you're involved with. And paint us a picture of how it unfolds. Is it always gonna be a niche movement of highly disciplined, overthinking?

you know, weirdos or is it is it hasn't got the potential to actually, you know, impact society.

Brittany Polat (55:11.493)
I think it does have potential to impact society. And I would say it has always impacted society, even though Stoicism kind of went underground after its peak in ancient Rome. It has influenced our culture in a lot of ways. So I would say it's always gonna be there. It might be an undercurrent. Sometimes it might come up and rear its head a little bit more and be more visible like right now.

But I would say for people who want to live a good life, who are willing to explore their options, Stoicism is always going to be there. There are a lot of theories about why it's gotten so popular right now. Of course, 2020 when COVID hit, we experienced a surge of interest, especially online. So a lot of online events, a lot of books, I think, you know, Seneca's letters to a Stoic shot through the roof with sales.

on Amazon, that kind of thing. But even before then, in starting in maybe around 2010, so modern Stoicism came on board in 2012. So I would say the decade between 2010 and 2020 saw a big resurgence. I think there are a couple of reasons. People often say the decline of organized religion. So people are looking for another alternative path for life, some guiding system.

instead of religion. I think that does play a role. I think there's also a lot of scholarship. We don't often talk about this, but scholarship in the mid-20th century, so from 1950 to about 2000, Stoicism underwent a real kind of renaissance in scholarly works, because before then, the Stoics were seen as kind of inferior to Aristotle and Plato. There was this idea that

the Hellenistic schools were just kind of an afterthought after Plato and Aristotle. And so there was a resurgence of interest and a lot of very smart people started to uncover more of the principles of Stoicism. And so that really helped lay the groundwork for people like me who then rely on the in-depth scholarship of someone like Chris Gill. So I think there are a couple of different reasons for it, but you know, whatever the reason, I'm very happy that it is.

Brittany Polat (57:27.551)
getting a lot more interest now.

Hadleigh Fischer (57:30.05)
Where do you see it going from here? Ryan Holiday has his Daily Stoic podcast, for example, and he brings out a book every three weeks. Who are the up and coming? We're gonna talk about your work in a moment. Who are the up and coming people that we need to be aware of? What kind of groups and things should people be aware of? We'll put all this stuff in the show notes, but where do you see it going?

Brittany Polat (57:59.391)
Yeah, well, one trend I've noticed is that there are a lot more specializations now. So instead of people necessarily writing a book on Stoicism in general, they're talking about Stoic parenting, like me, or one of my good friends wrote a book in German for German women. As far as I know, it's the first book in the world directed towards women about Stoicism, and it's in German. So I think that's really cool. You know, you'll find niche books on Stoicism in Christianity or Stoicism in Buddhism.

or so I think this is kind of the direction we're going to see. There are a lot of books existing on Stoicism in general, so there's going to be interest in how to apply it in specific ways.

Hadleigh Fischer (58:40.534)
Yeah. Let's touch on that. What is the name of that book in German, by the way, because my wife's Swiss, we speak German, we usually live in Switzerland. So my German would be a test to see how well I will go reading a philosophy book in German. But what's the name of that one? We pronounce it.

Brittany Polat (58:58.027)
I think it's just called... yeah, it's Die Stoikerin, I think, and it's by Anne Helen Gehrmann. So her last name is G-E-H-R-M-A-N-N. I've read it myself and it's excellent. It's actually not very scholar, you know, she wrote it for a popular audience. So she really brings in things like parenting and...

Hadleigh Fischer (59:03.172)
Alright.

Brittany Polat (59:22.707)
the particular issues that women face like sexism in the workplace and things like that. So she really brings all of that in. It's excellent. I hope it will be translated into English someday.

Hadleigh Fischer (59:32.93)
wonderful. I'd love to have her on the podcast. So let's just talk about women for a minute here, because to a lot of people, we quote, you know, you know, old dead, you know, Mediterranean white guys, you know, kind of look like me. But you mentioned a couple of, you know, Stoic women before. But, you know, most of the things you will hear and read about the Stoics, you know, are from men. How

I've interviewed Donald Robinson and Massimo Bellucci, and they have a lot of great things to say, but often the messenger is a big component of the message. And one of our supporters are women, many of whom are parents. You're a woman, you're a parent. What would you say about how you think about the fact that it's at least the written word, traditionally male dominated?

and you know everything is quoted through the lens of a male lens. How would you look at it through you know the modern, not even feminist, but just common sense perspective of where women are educated, involved and care about these sort of things?

Brittany Polat (01:00:46.919)
Yeah, I would say even though Stoicism has traditionally been presented through a masculine lens just because it was written by men for men, there's nothing inherently masculine about the philosophy itself. It can be applied in a macho way where, oh, you know, I'm going to, like Epictetus talks about the cynics out there in the winter hugging statues, which were freezing just to prove how tough they were. Right? So it can be applied in that way. But

It doesn't have to be. It can also be applied in very pro-social ways and applied to issues that women are specifically interested in. So a lot of our work at StoaCare, for example, we're talking about how you can care for others with, you know, through Stoicism. And it's very, very effective for that. It's very effective for caregivers, parents, teachers, people doing elder care, doctors and nurses. You know, you can easily apply the principles of Stoicism to

you know, how do I deal with patients every day who are suffering? How do I show compassion, but not get burned out? These are sorts of questions that Stoicism can also offer great answers to. So I think when women start to get involved with it, you know, we kind of look at it through things that interest us. And, you know, a lot of women do say, Hey, Stoicism is awesome. Let's, let's move past this stereotype. So yes, I'm glad to hear a lot of your audience is women.

Hadleigh Fischer (01:02:10.894)
Wonderful. Tell us a bit more about your not-for-profit.

Brittany Polat (01:02:14.675)
Right, so Stoicare has been around since 2021. I co-founded it with Eve Riches, who is actually an autism mentor and disability employment support mentor in the UK. Another one of our directors is Paul Wilson, who has run community mental health nonprofits before, and he's currently head of staff wellbeing at a university in the UK. So they really have a wealth of that experience in mental health, and both of them would be amazing to have on your podcast as well.

Eve is especially interesting because she is visually impaired. She's almost blind, but she still does amazing things. So not only does she help me run the nonprofit, but she has her own business. And she also runs marathons using a sighted guide at her side. Yeah, she's incredible. So definitely reach out to Eve.

Hadleigh Fischer (01:03:07.763)
A real human story of resilience. I'd love to have her.

Brittany Polat (01:03:11.571)
Absolutely, right. So, you know, we look at ways, we recently had a conference last year for mental health professionals on how people are applying Stoicism in their mental health practices. So this was the first time we had actually spoken directly to professionals. You know, most of the time we're talking to just an audience of whoever can apply Stoicism in their life. And this one was a professional development event. So we think this is a direction that, you know, with the resurgence of interest in Stoicism,

and how closely related it is to, like you said, resilience and wellbeing and mental health, that this is gonna be a flourishing area in the future.

Hadleigh Fischer (01:03:50.798)
Wonderful. I'm really looking forward to having those people on the show and learning more about it. Now, before we talk about your new work, and we've touched a lot on tranquility parenting today, you also have a book called Journal Like A Stoic. And journaling is, you either do it or you don't, I think is sort of how people think about it. A lot of people say, I haven't got time to journal or I used to journal when I was a kid, and then life got busy.

Residence agenda, we make journals. That's what we do. We make diaries and planners and our big idea is to, you know, get people of the morning during their morning coffee, whether it's two minutes, five minutes or 10 minutes to sit down with their planner, read, you know, today's section, prioritize the day's tasks, reflect on, you know, a few things that they're, you know, trying to learn that month and that's it.

for busy people and then plan their time in a way that puts well-being at the forefront of how they plan their time, not just as an afterthought. That's basically the whole brand message.

Hadleigh Fischer (01:05:03.574)
Why is journaling so powerful? Now we know that Marcus Aurelius' journals, you know, one of the original works in literature was a little conversation with himself, you know, never really meant for public consumption. And here, many of our, you know, many of our journals will never be seen by others. And that's sort of the point. Why journal? Why should Stoics journal and people who, you know, like the messages that we've talked about today,

Brittany Polat (01:05:07.787)
and

Hadleigh Fischer (01:05:33.122)
What can you get out of it? And how would you guide people to get started?

Brittany Polat (01:05:37.735)
Right, well, when you start looking at your life philosophy, you sometimes run into the problem of, you have these great principles, right? But how do you apply them in your life every day? And like we talked about earlier, when the going gets tough, how do you apply those principles? Well, journaling can really help with this because it helps you to think through those principles and apply them to your life, but before you need it. So again, when you're journaling, you might have a real life problem that you're working through.

but it's at a theoretical point because you're writing it down. You're not actually interacting with somebody else in that moment. You're not yelling at your spouse or you're not dealing with a child pitching a temper tantrum, right? So it allows you to kind of explore those ideas and how you're going to integrate them into your mindset theoretically before it ever happens. So I would say, well, the ancient Stoics considered journaling a spiritual exercise, spiritual in the sense of your spirit, your psyche, how do you get it?

from an intellectual understanding into an emotional understanding. And this is what journaling is awesome at. There are other ways to do it too, meditation, conversations, listening to podcasts, but journaling is one of the best for sure.

Hadleigh Fischer (01:06:51.502)
What I love about journaling is that it takes you about 60,000, 70,000 thoughts a day and forces you to structure them because so many of our thoughts are just a jumble. You know, their ideas are not fully formed. And then often when you journal and sometimes, you know, people struggle to get started because they don't know what to put on a blank page. That's often one of people's key challenges. It forces you to structure your thoughts and think about, well, hang on. What?

Do I believe what actually is the problem? You know, psychologists talk about labeling our emotions and you know, you talk about, you know, you had a poor season for your business or you know, your book didn't sell very well or you know, the kids are upset. You don't really know what you think until you either talk to a therapist, have a conversation with someone about it. And these days, you know, a lot of people either aren't skilled at listening or just don't have time for it.

And so one place of solace is a book and just that expression, downloading it from your mind. Um, the structure that gives you, um, is just so powerful. Like if you haven't, you know, a lot of people, you know, we talk about the loneliness epidemic. Um, if you haven't got a friend or someone a confident to talk to, get a book. And it doesn't have to be expensive. It doesn't have to be ours. It just has to be any bit of paper. Do it on, you know, on a word document, but just type.

Um, you know, have you got any comments or examples of how that's worked for you? Are you seeing work?

Brittany Polat (01:08:27.291)
Yeah, I think sometimes it can take what's unconscious or at a subconscious level and make it conscious. It brings it to our awareness. We didn't even know we were thinking about it until we see it written down on the page. So I totally agree. And I think a lot of people have discovered their self-talk is not what they would want through the process of journaling. A lot of times people are very critical of themselves or they're saying extremely unhelpful things and they don't realize it until.

they see themselves writing it in their journal. So I completely agree with you.

Hadleigh Fischer (01:09:00.23)
Tell us about your new book, we're running out of time. Chris Gill is one of the legends of Stoic philosophy and you've worked with him to put together a new book. Tell us what that's about and why the book exists and what you're hoping to achieve with it.

Brittany Polat (01:09:17.427)
Right, so it's called Stoic Ethics, The Basics, and it is part of a series from Rutledge on philosophy. And basically, as you said, Chris is one of the legends of Stoicism. He spent 50 years or more thinking about these issues. Excuse me.

Brittany Polat (01:09:40.272)
And he, in 2022, he published a magnum opus called Learning to Live Naturally. It's close to 500 pages of dense philosophical thought on what Stoicism is and what it can offer to the modern world. However, it's very expensive. It's written in scholarly language. It's not very accessible to most people. So he invited me to work with him on this much shorter version to basically make it accessible and affordable to everyone.

anyone who's interested in Stoic ethics. So it's coming out in September. It will be priced around $25. So, you know, very accessible to everyone. My contribution has been the modern application. So Chris focuses in a lot of ways on the ancient ethical theory, and then I contribute thoughts on how we apply it in modern life. So I think people are really going to enjoy it and get a lot out of it, both the ancient and modern applications. And I am very excited about it.

Hadleigh Fischer (01:10:36.29)
Wonderful. Speaking of books, are there any parenting books, philosophy books, life books, personal development books that have been life-changing for you that you'd encourage our readers, I'm sorry, our listeners to check out?

Brittany Polat (01:10:54.027)
Well, I mentioned earlier William Irvin's A Guide to the Good Life, which was my first introduction to Stoicism and which I often recommend to others as well. I can recommend Sharon Lebell's The Art of Living. If you haven't come across that yet, it's the classical manual on virtue. It's excellent. So I would say those two are a great place to start. You're already familiar with Massimo Pigliucci and Donald Robertson's works.

So yes, those are all wonderful places to start and I highly recommend those authors.

Hadleigh Fischer (01:11:31.138)
We're going to put all these things in the show notes. How can we learn more about your work? How can we, you know, we'll put links to your books and things, of course. How do we get access to your content and what you do online and your own work?

Brittany Polat (01:11:45.931)
Well, of course you can find me at stoicare.com. I am also on social platforms. So Instagram, LinkedIn, Twitter, my handle is at Brittany Pollot on all of those. And like I said, I love hearing from people. So if you have questions, comments, thoughts, please do get in touch. I would love to hear from you.

Hadleigh Fischer (01:12:04.242)
Thank you so much, Brittany, for taking the time to join us today and for sharing your insights. Is there anything to sum up or to leave our business with? Most people would be coming to the end of a long walk now or a long drive as they would have this. What should we take away from our discussion today?

Brittany Polat (01:12:21.075)
Okay.

Brittany Polat (01:12:26.799)
Just remember that it's a long process. It's a lifelong process. So, you know, don't feel discouraged. Don't be too hard on yourself. Just, if you make a mistake, show some self-compassion and keep going.

Hadleigh Fischer (01:12:40.226)
Thank you so much for your time. And we look forward to having you on the show again.

Brittany Polat (01:12:44.747)
Thank you, it was a pleasure.