How to Explore the Switzerland Most Tourists Miss

Curious about Switzerland’s hidden gems and ready to venture off the beaten path? In this episode, I team up with Swiss travel expert James to reveal secret Switzerland—those unique places to visit in Switzerland that most travelers never find.

Together, we share an inspiring week-long Switzerland itinerary packed with unforgettable stops: the car-free paradise of Braunwald, the authentic alpine village of Savognin Switzerland in the heart of Graubünden, the underrated city buzz of Winterthur, the colorful streets of Appenzell, and the historic treasures of St Gallen. 

From scenic rail journeys through dramatic landscapes to leisurely Switzerland hikes, this episode gives you real advice on how to experience Switzerland’s quieter side - without missing any of the magic. 

You’ll learn how to make the most of the Swiss Travel Pass, discover local specialties, and get a taste of true Swiss hospitality, all while saving money and avoiding the crowds.

If you’re dreaming about secret Switzerland and planning the ultimate off the beaten path Swiss vacation, tune in now for practical tips and plenty of inspiration.

Happy travels,
Carolyn

👉 Show notes - Episode 185

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Transcript

Carolyn Schönafinger: If you're searching for a quieter side of Switzerland to visit, either instead of or in addition to the popular but busy destinations, you're going to love my chat with James Wilson in today's episode. James is introducing us to some lesser-known destinations that all have their own charm and are worthy of inclusion in your Swiss itinerary. Welcome to the Holidays to Switzerland podcast. I'm Carolyn Schönafinger, your Switzerland destination expert and the founder of holidaystoswitzerland.com. Each week, together with my expert guests, I introduce you to the Switzerland that I know and love and share inspiration and practical tips to help you plan your dream Swiss vacation. Before we dive in, a quick thank you to our podcast sponsors, Switzerland Tourism and Echo Rails. If you're planning a trip to Switzerland, you'll know just how much there is to consider. With so many incredible places to visit, figuring out your itinerary, booking accommodation, and choosing the right rail pass can quickly start to feel overwhelming. So that's where Echo Rails comes in. Their small group rail tours are carefully curated so that everything is taken care of for you. From the moment you arrive at the airport, your accommodation, transport, daily breakfasts and dinners, scenic excursions, and a knowledgeable local English-speaking guide are all included, so you can simply relax and enjoy the journey.

Carolyn Schönafinger: If travelling through Switzerland with a small group tour sounds like your ideal way to explore, you'll find more details via the link in the show notes, along with an exclusive 5% discount code. Now, let's get into this week's episode. Good morning, James. Thank you for coming back onto the podcast. It's great to have you with us again. For our listeners who haven't heard you on the show previously, could you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about what you do?

James Wilson: Good morning, Carolyn, and thanks again for having me along on another of your podcasts. Great to be here. Yeah, I'm James Wilson. I own a company called Swiss Tailor Made Travel and Consulting. We live here in Wengen. I'm based in Wengen in the Bernese Oberland, and I've lived here 10 years. And my company, Swiss Tailor Made, takes care of a number of different partners across the country, all of whom are in tourism in some form or another. That could be hotels, scenic rail journeys, mountain excursions, museums. And when I say we look after them, what we do is we promote them to our network of tour operators and travel agents around the world. And we also, on behalf of those tour operators and travel agents, create bespoke itineraries which include as many of our products as possible. And we also partner with two DMCs, which we'll come on to later, which enable your listeners, for example, to then go ahead and book something by themselves along with these DMC partners so that they can turn them into reality. So that's what we do.

Carolyn Schönafinger: Yeah, wonderful. And there's certainly a diverse mix there, as you said, from hotels to scenic railways to mountain excursions. So plenty of variety. And it's great to have someone with your itinerary planning expertise on the show again. I think it's probably no surprise to our listeners that the most popular destinations in Switzerland, the ones that they've seen all over the internet and social media, they're super busy, particularly in the peak seasons. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't visit them because obviously they're popular for a very good reason. But I know you agree with me that they're not the only places in Switzerland that are worthy of a visit. I mean, there are so many, let's call them hidden gems, that are just waiting to be discovered. And I know that introducing travellers to some of these lesser-known towns and villages in Switzerland is something that you're quite passionate about. Passionate about, right?

James Wilson: Oh, I'm very passionate about it. But I think I should reiterate your point, Carolyn, about the hotspots. Everyone should go and visit them. What I would never want to do is put people off going to see some of these fantastic places because they are fantastic and very busy for a reason. But I think what I like to do is create itineraries which allow people to go and see hidden Switzerland, because there really is so much more to discover. But by creating itineraries, which then people can then not copy necessarily, but people can take a note of and then try and replicate by themselves. We’re not doing that, then people may often still get drawn to the hotspots. And what we like to do is create itineraries which are off the beaten track, but still enable them to go and visit some of the hotspots during the same trip. Because obviously a lot of people are maybe travelling to Switzerland for perhaps the one and only time. So whilst they're here, they do want to maximise the time spent so that they can go and see the hotspots, but maybe tie that in with something more off the beaten track.

James Wilson: And I think being able to create some itineraries which can do both, go off the beaten track and, but also see some of the hotspots. We really like to do that. We like to play with the ingredients that we have available to us. And come up with something that little bit more special.

Carolyn Schönafinger: Yeah. And last time you were on the podcast, you actually presented us with an itinerary that included a couple of those hotspots, Lucerne and Wengen, which is where you're based, as well as a little lesser-known gem of Lenk. And I know that today you're going to introduce us to some other lesser-known destinations and perhaps suggest a one-week itinerary that includes these places in it. So, can you give us a brief overview of the destinations that you'd like to tell us about today?

James Wilson: Yeah. So today's, uh, what I'd like to do today is tell you something about the destination, or maybe one destination that I know you might have covered already, Carolyn, in one of your previous podcasts, which is Winterthur, but then also further afield down towards southeastern, uh, Switzerland. And we'll cover, uh, a village called Braunwald. We'll also go to another very quaint little village called Savognin, which is down in the Graubünden region. And whilst we're in Winterthur at the start of the itinerary, we'll also go over to St. Gallen and Appenzell, which I think many of your listeners will have perhaps heard of, especially Appenzell. That's certainly a destination which they'll have heard of, but perhaps not visited, and very popular, certainly with people looking to go and discover perhaps the real Switzerland and lots of those different traditions. But then once we get further into the itinerary, Braunwald, I would be very, very surprised if any of your listeners have either been there, certainly not been there, but maybe not even heard of. And Savognin itself is also a beautiful village, very accessible. But I would be surprised again if any of your listeners had spent any time there.

Carolyn Schönafinger: Well, hopefully they've heard of Savognin because I did stay there last autumn on my trip, and I did talk about that on my podcast when I returned from the trip. So hopefully they've remembered Savognin, but yeah, it'll be great to hear more from you about it. So who do you think that this itinerary will appeal to?

James Wilson: Well, certainly it will appeal to those people who have perhaps been here before and maybe seen— we'll keep using the term hotspots— maybe seen some of the hotspots, but are now looking for something which they've not done before. And they want to experience destinations which are certainly unknown to them, and they want to go off and just do something that little bit different. Maybe just go a little bit further out or out of their comfort zone to go really off the beaten track. And secondly, it's an itinerary which includes stops in two places where all levels of hiking are available, certainly for those people wanting to just have a gentle stroll around the local area, maybe just for an hour, but also people who want to go to destinations where hiking really is one of the reasons you'd go there. So people who are perhaps a little bit more active and want to go off and discover more of the surrounding countryside on foot. So they're the two sets of people who I would say this is really aimed at. But having said that, and having mentioned the hiking, there's absolutely no reason why you wouldn't do this itinerary if you weren't just looking to do a bit more sightseeing in areas you've not seen before.

Carolyn Schönafinger: Hmm. Okay. So you could definitely combine it with visits to those hotspots and then add this itinerary on one end.

James Wilson: Definitely. Definitely. And we can talk about that at the end because I've got a really, really good suggestion as to what you can do at the end of this particular trip.

Carolyn Schönafinger: Okay, fantastic. So can you walk us through each day of the itinerary so that our listeners can get an understanding of, you know, what they can do each day and how much they can actually fit into you know, a short period. You, you mentioned that the, the itinerary will be about a week. Um, so obviously we can see quite a lot within a week. So yeah, please walk us through the, the daily itinerary.

James Wilson: Sure. Well, what I've done, as I've done with previous, uh, podcasts, Carolyn, is, is base this assuming that the guests will be arriving by air into Zurich. Um, now that might not necessarily be the case with everybody, but more often than not, people will be arriving into the country via Zurich Airport. So we start the itinerary off there, and we, on the first day, we travel directly from the airport to Winterthur, which for those, for those people that don't know, is a very short 20-minute train ride to Winterthur from Zurich and from Zurich Airport. And we'll base ourselves for 2 nights in Winterthur. We always choose our hotel there, the 4-star Park Hotel, which is just a 5-minute walk from the station in Winterthur. And then on arrival, we're just making the assumption that most people will be arriving into Zurich just before lunchtime, so that they will be actually in Winterthur itself just after lunch, which gives them then a free afternoon. And we always recommend having either a guided tour or a self-guided stroll around the old town. The hotel itself is on the doorstep of the old town. And as you know, having been there, Carolyn, It's a really, really quaint old town.

James Wilson: Winterthur itself has a lot of industry there, but once you're in the old town, it's really quaint. It's a lovely place and very, very easily accessible on foot. There are no hills, there's no steep climbs in the centre of town itself. And the old town, as I say, is on the doorstep of the hotel. So that's a nice, easy introduction, a nice, easy way to start the itinerary. and then we'd recommend having dinner at the hotel itself or out in the old town. And then once, once the guests are settled and they've had their first night in Winterthur, then we make a recommendation that they use their Swiss Travel Pass, which again, is something which I know you'd like your listeners to consider when travelling over here, because it gives you access to so many different destinations on just the one ticket. So within a very short distance by train from Winterthur, we can get to Appenzell or we can get to St. Gallen, and we can actually combine the two. But I would always recommend perhaps going to Appenzell first thing because it's slightly further away, and then work your way backwards. Appenzell, again, is a very, very beautiful, quaint, traditional village.

James Wilson: It's steeped in tradition. And it's also very, very accessible to everybody on foot. The old town itself is a short walk from the train station, and everything that you want to see and do in Appenzell is within walking distance of everything. And just the architecture is really special. I mean, some people will say, well, what do we do when we get to Appenzell? I just have a stroll around. It's so pretty. And if you've not been there for the first time, then it's just a case of getting there, go and have a coffee somewhere, and just have a walk through the old town. It's so beautiful. And I think it would be fair to say that it's so different to anywhere else as well. There are so many nice villages, of course, throughout the country, but when you get there, I think the reaction that everybody has always is, oh, now I can see why people like it so much. Yeah. And when you, when you can recommend a destination like that where you don't actually have to force yourself to do anything once you get there, it's just a really nice way to start a holiday.

Carolyn Schönafinger: Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things I love about Appenzell is there's so many local specialties there. So you can walk along, you know, the main street, the high street, and there's biscuits to try, local biscuits. There's chocolate. There's, you know, there's a brewery just outside the old town. There's so much, it's amazing. And bakeries with the most amazing looking cakes and, oh, you could just spend all day there eating.

James Wilson: Yeah, I think we're both smiling just thinking about it. And the cheese as well, of course. I mean, Switzerland renowned for its cheese, but Appenzell cheese is also absolutely sensational. And all those little things there that you've mentioned are easily combinable to give you an easy self-guided itinerary in the morning once you get there. It really is a place that people should go and see if they've not done it before. And I'm getting excited just thinking about my next trip over there. But because it's so close to where we started from, it means you've still got the afternoon to then go and explore somewhere else. And again, using the Swiss Travel Pass, it's not going to cost you any extra to then go and explore somewhere else. And St. Gallen is my recommendation for the afternoon because it's easily reached by train from Appenzell and it's on the way back to Winterthur. And similarly, it's easily doable on foot. The Abbey District in the old town and the library, for example, two must-sees whilst you're there. They're so architecturally stunning. The city itself is very pleasant to walk around. There's lots to see and do.

James Wilson: Similarly with Appenzell, you've got lots going on and lots of things you can just stick your head around the door of and try things out. But once you get to the Abbey District, you should have a walk, just have a stroll around and go and see the library as well. It's a UNESCO World Heritage Site, and the library, it's very, very unique. Similarly to Appenzell, once you walk into the library for the first time, you're absolutely awestruck. It's visually stunning. And that would be my recommendation. Once you're in St. Gallen, go and have a look at the library. It's spectacular.

Carolyn Schönafinger: Yeah, it sure is. And it's also the admission to that is included with the Swiss Travel Pass, which is an added bonus as well. But as you say, you step inside that library and wow, your mind is just blown about the intricacy and the work that's gone into the inside the building. It's just amazing.

James Wilson: Really is amazing. Good, good point about the Swiss Travel Pass. Always, always try to always remember that not only do you have a pass which gives you access to the public transport system, where it wherever you are. But yes, I think it's now over 400 different museums across the country which are included. So make, make full use of that. And of course, people can very easily find a list of museums that are, that are included on the, on the Swiss Travel Pass before they travel.

Carolyn Schönafinger: Okay. So after that, we'll head back to Winterthur for another night at the Park Hotel.

James Wilson: So we'll go back there and then have some dinner somewhere again, either at the hotel or out in the old town where there's lots to choose from. And then the following day, similarly, we'll maximise the Swiss Travel Pass, and my recommendation is that we head north to Schaffhausen, where they can go and see the Rhine Falls, the largest waterfalls in Europe, just outside Schaffhausen. Obviously, there's no additional cost required to go and visit the falls, but similarly to all the things we've mentioned so far, when you see them for the first time, you're blown away by how amazing they are. It really is worth just going and standing at one of the viewpoints and just watching it for half an hour. It's amazing the volume of water that comes through there.

Carolyn Schönafinger: It really is, yeah. And Schaffhausen is definitely worth a stroll through as well. Again, the facades on the buildings, there are lots of oriel windows, and it's a very, very attractive old town in Schaffhausen.

James Wilson: I think it's, again, another example of somewhere that people maybe have heard of or maybe not heard of and certainly won't have included on any previous trip perhaps, but once you get there with its location on the river and its architecture, it's so beautiful. I always recommend if people are interested in watchmaking, you know, a lot of people will associate watchmaking with Switzerland. Well, the IWC Museum is a really nice thing to to go and do it, I think it's only an additional 6 francs that you would pay to get there. I'm not sure if it's included on the Swiss Travel Pass, that particular museum, but the way it works by including it in a day in a morning or an afternoon in Schaffhausen, walking to the museum from the train station actually then automatically takes you through the old town. So it means that you can have a self-guided walk again around a really stunning place with a goal, if you like, of going to find the watchmaking museum, which in itself is well worth doing. But by having that as your target once you get there, it means that you automatically walk through the town.

James Wilson: And I think just walking through the town, as we've done with the other destinations so far in this itinerary, just have a look around. There is so much to see, but it's beautiful. And also because it's one of the lesser-known destinations, it's not busy. I mean, even when you're walking around these places during rush hour or whatever, they're still quiet by, by, you know, normal standards and just, just stroll around. It's, they're sort of nice places. And of course, because the flexibility of the pass again means that you're not booked on any particular train, you can spend as much time there as you like.

Carolyn Schönafinger: And the falls, the, the Rhine Falls are accessible by train as well, aren't they? There's two different train stops right by the falls. So you can, you can travel between Schaffhausen and the falls. If you want to, by train as well.

James Wilson: That's right. And actually there's one station on one side of the falls and then another station on the other side of the falls. So when you go to Schaffhausen, you can actually go one way and jump off the train at the falls. And then when you're coming back, you can do the same, but get off the train on the other side of the falls. So you can have both vistas available to you. And obviously they're both included on the pass again. Some people also like to catch the train to Schaffhausen and then walk back from Schaffhausen so that you actually reach the falls by foot. And certainly if you've got enough time, that's well worth doing. If the weather's nice, then why not walk along the river to the falls from town itself?

Carolyn Schönafinger: Right. Okay. What are we up to next?

James Wilson: So once we've had a morning in Schaffhausen, I recommend that we go back to Winterthur. We collect the luggage from the hotel and then take the short walk back to the train station in Winterthur, where we head to our next destination, which is Canton Glarus and the village of Braunwald. It's a really easy journey to get there. You just take the train back into Zurich and then one change of trains where there's a direct train then to a little village in the Canton Glarus called Linthal. Linthal is where you alight the train for the final change where you then join the funicular, which takes you from Linthal up to Braunwald. Braunwald is our next overnight destination, and the village itself, Braunwald, is a very, very small village high up in the mountains. It's only accessible by this funicular, which means that once you get up there, there's no traffic. It's one of the car-free villages that we have here. Most of the listeners, of course, will think of maybe Zermatt and Wengen and Mürren as villages where there are no cars up there. But Braunwald is even more unique because unlike those three villages that I've just mentioned, the number of service vehicles, the number of hotel vehicles, the number of farm vehicles that are pottering around the village.

James Wilson: And there's hardly any of those either. So you really are in a car-free village that really is a car-free village. You don't see any traffic whatsoever. And at the top of the funicular ride, which is only, I think it's 8 minutes from Linthal, literally on the doorstep of the funicular station is the Panorama Hotel in Braunwald, which is the hotel up there that we recommend. It's recently been renovated and offers fantastic facilities, but because it's off the beaten track, it also offers fantastic prices. What do we do once we're up there? Well, the reason we like to go up to the Panorama Hotel in Braunwald is because they're really— you're really— solitude. You are, you're on your own up there. The village itself is beautiful. It's really quaint. The hotel's fantastic, but the views across the valley are absolutely mind-blowing. And it is a place we recommend that people put in their itineraries if they just want to go somewhere and have views and silence and quiet and some downtime. Loads of little hiking options, or certainly bigger hiking options as well for people who want to do something more technical. But the location itself is absolutely mind-blowing.

James Wilson: When I got there for the first time, I couldn't believe that it was the first time I'd been there. It was so stunning. And people who've been there since on my recommendation have said, yeah, I can't believe it's taken us this long to find this kind of destination. We're definitely going to go back. And it really is a place to just go and appreciate the beauty of the surrounding mountains. It's stunning.

Carolyn Schönafinger: Sounds amazing. Definitely worth a visit. And as you mentioned earlier, I think Glarus is a canton that most of our listeners probably know very little about.

James Wilson: Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's, um, you, whenever you come and fly into Zurich and then perhaps head down to do the, to towards St. Moritz to do the Glacier Express or the Bernina Express, on the train, you're passing by Canton Glarus really closely. And, uh, along that particular line, the train just turns off to the right from Zurich if you're heading down to the southeast, and there is Canton Glarus, but nobody ever goes down there. The train journey down there is in itself is amazing, but it's not on the itineraries of the tour operators, but it's so close, it's so well connected. But once you're out of Zurich and the train just takes that right-hand turn and heads down the valley, the trains are empty as well. It was amazing. It was just like going back a few decades. When you're down there, you're almost on the train by yourself and you get to the hotel and there's nobody around. And part of me doesn't want to tell too many people about the hotel. Obviously, the hotel needs guests, but I like the fact that when you get there, it's so quiet and it's a bit of a tricky one, but it's beautiful.

James Wilson: It's amazing. That's why I wanted to include it in this itinerary, because it really does take you off the beaten track. Back, but it's so accessible.

Carolyn Schönafinger: Well, I'm sure our listeners will gladly go and book their stay there, but they'll keep it to themselves so it remains nice and quiet for when you and I go and visit. Okay, so I'm guessing on the first day, once we've arrived in Braunwald, we'll just wander around, familiarise ourselves with the village, perhaps have a nice dinner at the hotel that night. So what about on the next day? What do you suggest people do on that full day that they're going to spend there in the village?

James Wilson: Well, we recommend that because, I mean, obviously we can't do anything about the weather, and the weather in the mountains can change at any time. But the one thing that we will recommend they do once they're there is take advantage of the local gondola, the local gondola system, which is again adjacent to the hotel and just at the back of the village. A really nice walk through the village and go and have go and have lunch at the Berggasthaus at Gummen, which is at the top of the gondola ride from the village. Back down in Braunwald, the views are amazing, but once you're even higher up, then it really does go from one level to the next. I think it's really important to go and see these mountain restaurants, which in a way are there for tourists, as it were, but they've been there for so long and they provide a stopping point for hikers and for mountaineers on the way to wherever they're going. And normally they will always serve something local. They'll serve what is traditionally food from that particular region. And when you can just go up there at your own pace, go to the top of the gondola station, and there's scenic walks all around the top of the gondola station, but the restaurant is right there.

James Wilson: And the view from the terrace, as you can imagine from what I've described so far, the view from the terrace is mind-blowing. And just going up there, have a look around, have a little hike for an hour from the top of the gondola station, and then treat yourself to some lunch and just sit there and admire the views. And for every person that wants to go and cram as much in as possible to these itineraries, I think this is the kind of place for those who really want to go and just wind down. And just go and take it all in. And this particular point from where you've got these views, and you can enjoy a bit of local traditional hospitality. That's just the way I think, certainly I like to spend my holidays these days by doing as little as possible. And it's really accessible from the hotel. It doesn't take long to get up there, but once you're up there, you can then choose to take as long as you like there because it's so nice. And if the weather's good, you won't want to come down. When it comes to going back down, of course, you've got the option of hiking back down to the village, or you can just jump back on the gondola.

James Wilson: You do whatever you like. It's so pretty. And that's my recommendation for that particular day. Do as little as possible, but go up to the top of the mountain and take a look because you'll love it.

Carolyn Schönafinger: Yeah. Well, life is so busy, isn't it, that why not take the opportunity to just sit back and relax and enjoy the silence and the fact that you have to do nothing.

James Wilson: Exactly. Exactly. And you know, that doesn't appeal to everybody, but it certainly appeals to me. And I hope there's plenty of you listeners that share the same views. We're all running around and trying to cram as much as possible into our already busy schedules. But actually, holidays should be about winding down so that when you go back to wherever you're from, you actually feel like you've had a holiday. And I think this itinerary itself enables you to do that. You're seeing plenty, but it's at a leisurely pace. And then once you're at these destinations, you don't have to rush around and cram loads in.

Carolyn Schönafinger: Yeah. Okay. Well, Braunwald sounds like the ideal place to have in the middle of this itinerary to really unwind. Where are we moving on to next?

James Wilson: So next we're going to go on to Saarbrücken. And as with a lot of places that I include on our itineraries, everything's very easily accessible by public transport. So we head down towards Chur and then onwards to Tiefencastel by train. We change in Chur and then we get the train to Tiefencastel. And then once we arrive at Tiefencastel, which itself is a really beautiful old town, the yellow post buses are all waiting for the train to arrive. And then you actually get on the post bus, which takes you the short journey to Savognin, which is down the Val Surses. That's the valley that it's located in. And then from there, you take a short walk from the bus stop, which is in the centre of the village, and down to the hotel. And the one that we recommend is the Aves Home Base, which is right in the centre of the village, and it's also next to the gondola station. One of the things that you'll notice, first of all, when you get to Savognin, for those people who have got a keen eye for this kind of thing, is the signposts will also be written in perhaps a different language that they've experienced so far on a trip, because Savognin is a village where the official language is Romansh.

James Wilson: And that's, for those who perhaps don't know or haven't heard of it before, it sounds very much like a Latin-based language, but I always think it looks like it has a Latin base, but with a bit of Italian thrown into it. And when you hear it for the first time, when you're travelling around on the trains in this part of the country, some people who've done this already may hear on the train, the announcements are actually made in 4 different languages. And the 4th language of those 4 announcements is the Romansh one. And the first time you hear it, you think, well, I've never actually heard that before. Where does that come from? Well, that's what it is. And over only around 1% of the Swiss population actually speak Romansh. So when you can stay in a place where that's the official language and you can hear people speaking it and you can read it on the signposts. That's actually quite an interesting thing to include on your holiday itinerary.

Carolyn Schönafinger: Yeah, absolutely. That's very, very authentic, isn't it?

James Wilson: Well, it's really authentic because it's so rare. And I mean, I've never tried speaking Romansh myself, but there's a couple of words, alegra, for example, which you can just throw into the morning conversation with whoever you see. And that's, you'll get them saying that back to you because that's their local dialect and they really appreciate So give that a try. Speak a bit of Romansh whilst you're there. Once you're in Savognin, again, the location is so spectacular. There's lots to see and do. But I think going back to the point I raised originally, this is another destination where just get up into the mountains and go and do some hiking regardless of your fitness levels or the kind of hikes that you tend to do yourself. There is something for everybody. And the local guest card, which is included free of charge with your overnight stay in Savognin, that gives you access to the local gondola network. So if you don't want to do too much on the first day, I would recommend maybe just having a little wander around the village and just enjoying the scenery. But then on the following day, make use of the included guest card, which not only includes the gondolas in and around Savognin, but it also includes the post bus and journey up and down that valley.

James Wilson: And what that means is, and this is something that I've done myself a couple of times, I actually like to take the bus to one end of the valley or the other, and then take an undulating hike back to Savognin, which means that you can actually really push yourself, or you can take it easy. There's so many different hikes to choose from, but the beauty of having the access to the post buses, which run up and down all day long, is you can reach one village on the way back and then jump back on the post bus, which then takes you further back towards Savognin. So you can break the day up by doing something like that, knowing that the post buses are running regularly. And as well as being included on the local guest card, they're of course included anyway on the Swiss Travel Pass. So it's an unknown destination. It's so close by. We mentioned Tiefencastel a second ago as where you get off the train and join the post bus. But Tiefencastel is also one of the stopping points for the Glacier Express, for example. So it shows you how close you are to some of the hotspots, but you're just slightly away from them in a valley which is unknown and perhaps a place you would never have gone before.

James Wilson: I can't recommend it highly enough. It's such a nice place. The people are lovely. The villages are so beautiful, but there really is plenty to do. But it's not for people who want to cram loads in as quickly as possible and just tick things off the list. It's a destination where you can go and wind down and just do things at your own pace and take the beauty of the surrounding nature in. That's what it's all about.

Carolyn Schönafinger: Yeah, absolutely. And as I said, I stayed there for a few nights last year on my trip to Switzerland, and it's such a great base. And for anyone who is interested in the Glacier Express, or in particular that Landwasser Viaduct, which, yeah, I have to admit, I'm a bit of a nerd when it comes to the Landwasser Viaduct. I'm just astounded by it. There's lots of viewing points nearby that you can easily reach from Savognin and, and go and see the trains going over the viaduct from below, from above, uh, and plenty of other beautiful little villages around there too to go and explore.

James Wilson: Yeah, it's so nice. And so, but so then so close to the Glacier Express, Bernina Express, St. Moritz, and so on. So once you're, once you're done in Savognin and again, spend as much time as you like there, there's so much to do. Then it does give people the option because of its location to go off and do perhaps some of those rail journeys or see some of those places that they've definitely wanted to include on perhaps their once-in-a-lifetime trip, because it's just down the road. I mean, Switzerland itself is such a small country, and Savognin is really off the beaten track, but it's literally just down the road as well from some of the more well-known places. And that's my next recommendation, I suppose, when people get to the end of the itinerary I've just talked through. and what, what shall we do next? Well, go and include one of those big-name scenic rail journeys whilst you're there. You'd be crazy not to do it.

Carolyn Schönafinger: Absolutely. As you said, the proximity to the Glacier Express and the Bernina Express on that Albula railway line is, is amazing. The Bernina Express, of course, continues down to Italy. So for folks who want to combine Italy with Switzerland, that's an option. If people wanted to spend some time around St. Moritz, or somewhere else in that vicinity? Is that an option as well?

James Wilson: Yes, it's definitely an option. It's, I mean, when you're in Savognin and you catch the bus down to a village called Bivio, which is at one end of the valley, well, through Bivio and over the pass, you are literally down in St. Moritz after that. And once you're there, of course, you've St. Moritz, Davos, Klosters, the Engadine as a valley. If I could pick one of my favourite valleys in Switzerland, The Engadine is certainly up there because if you can combine your trip with a, or sorry, do your trip in the autumn, then the colours in the Engadine Valley in the autumn are absolutely spectacular. And its proximity, of course, also to Italy, as you've just mentioned, means that maybe people are planning a trip to come over here and combine it with Italy and easy access to Milan from there. And also a lot of people do choose to fly out of Milan to wherever they're going. It's really close by. But don't just go as far as Savognin. Whilst you're there, then totally recommend that you go and stay in perhaps one of the more well-known places, because as we've already mentioned, your Swiss Travel Pass not only gets you there, but once you're also there, local public transport in that next destination are also included.

Carolyn Schönafinger: Okay. And a village that I've been hearing more and more about recently, although it's still quite off the beaten track, is Sils, which is not that far from Saint Moritz. So is that somewhere that you recommend? Like what could people do there if they wanted to add that on to the end of this itinerary?

James Wilson: I think if you were going to go to Sils, first of all, in the same way that Savognin is, the official language in Sils is Romansh. So go there for that. Saint Moritz itself, there's a lot of glitz and glamour. It's everything you expect it to be when you get there. Sils Maria is only 10 minutes down the road, again on the Postbus, but it's another world altogether. And once you're in Sils, our recommended hotel is the 5-star Waldhaus, which sits at the top of the hill at the back of the village, looks down over the village, and it really is a place to go and treat yourself. Because of all the hotels around the country, it's the one, certainly if you're in this part of the country, that's the hotel that I say, just go and stay a night at the Waldhaus. I won't give too much way about the Waldhaus during the podcast, I'd just say to people, if you're in that part of the country and you're going to go and stay somewhere, just go and stay at the Waldhaus. And I know, I think you're going, Carolyn, in the autumn to go and stay at the Waldhaus.

James Wilson: And I guarantee you that when you finish the trip and we chat about how it went, you'll just say to me, now I know exactly what you mean about the Waldhaus.

Carolyn Schönafinger: Yes. Well, thank you for telling me about it because yeah, I'm very much looking forward to going to Sils Maria here and staying at the hotel. And for anyone who is curious, I'll put a link to the hotel's website in the show notes so they can check it out and start planning their own visit. All right. So what is it about this itinerary that you think makes it special?

James Wilson: I think it's very special because it's, again, it's to places that people either haven't, certainly haven't been to before, but maybe even haven't heard of before. Before. You are seeing parts of the country and meeting people from parts of the country that you've not experienced before, and it certainly, when you get there, it's very refreshing and much quieter, especially if you're going during the high season months. The other thing is that because you're going to the lesser-known destinations, when you add up the cost of the itinerary, you'll notice how much how much money you can save by going to stay at these places. You are going to the places that are not on everyone's list, and as a result, the prices reflect that. So a similar length itinerary to some of the more well-known destinations, you are going to be paying a lot more. So there are people who are conscious of budgets and want to go and see some amazing scenery and want to experience some feel true Swiss hospitality in these spectacular destinations. Doing it this way and going to, going to stay in smaller cities and visiting smaller towns and staying on, on the top of the mountain like you do in Braunwald, you'll be amazed how much money you can save whilst also having everything that a holiday to Switzerland should include.

Carolyn Schönafinger: Fantastic. I'm sure that's very appealing. It's definitely a good reason for considering this itinerary. Now we've talked about the Swiss Travel Pass. And obviously people can buy one of those and book their own accommodation. But if other listeners perhaps want a bit more help with booking their trip and using this itinerary as the foundation for that, where do you recommend they get some assistance from?

James Wilson: Well, my recommendation as always with any of the itineraries for individual travellers and families is our partners Watch and Cow. Watch and Cow are specialists in creating itineraries of this nature for people who want to come and have everything organised for them. What they will always do with the traveller is arrange a consultation call once they know, once they're in touch with Watch and Cow, during which that, during that first conversation, whoever they're speaking to will talk them through what the options are. They'll ask them What are the things you want to see? What are the things that you want to experience? How quickly would you like to do the itinerary? How much do you want to cram in? So on and so forth. And then at the end of the call, Watch and Cow will go away very quickly and put a very, very extensive itinerary together so that the guests themselves are really not having to do any thinking or any planning, but the itinerary itself is based on the conversation, the wish list the things that, the kind of experiences they want to include. And so that they then presented with, okay, well, that's what we've talked about.

James Wilson: That's what, that's what we now learned. We've now learned that you want to do during your trip and this is what it could look like. And it's doing it that way saves a huge amount of time. And you are dealing, of course, with very much destination specialists. So that's my recommendation.

Carolyn Schönafinger: Great. So yeah, there's, there's a, there's the whole DIY option or there's, yeah, handing, handing the arrangements over to someone else and having them do it all on your behalf. So yeah, something for everyone. Now in the show notes for this episode, I'll include that itinerary that we've just chatted through today so people can have a look and read that in, in more detail. Also in the show notes, there are details of some of the discounts that are offered by partners of Holidays to Switzerland, some of which are partners of your own business, James. So Watch and Cow offer a 5% discount to our listeners, and as does the Park Hotel in Winterthur that we chatted about earlier. So the links and the discount code for those will be in the show notes as well. And I'll also include links to the previous episodes that James has appeared on. So if you want to go back and listen to his itinerary for Lucerne, Wengen, and Lenk, and Montreux, that's there as well as some other great info that you've shared about the Jungfrau region where, where you live. So thank you for that, James. All those links will be in the show notes for this episode.

Carolyn Schönafinger: So James, where can people get in touch with you if they want any more info?

James Wilson: They can contact me directly, james@swisstailormade.com. I know in, certainly after previous podcasts, we've had several listeners contact me directly for a bit of advice and more often than not, it's simply a case of pointing them in the right direction so that they know exactly what they need to do next in order to create this holiday that they're planning. But whatever questions the listeners have, whether it be who should we get to book this or whilst we're there, what shall we do or what other hotels can you recommend? What else shall we do whilst please feel free to drop me a line and then we'll get back to you with the best advice we can possibly offer. Although I would always recommend everybody else to contact you as well, Carolyn, because you're also a wealth of knowledge when it comes to travelling around Switzerland. So between us, I think we can certainly give everybody the advice that they need.

Carolyn Schönafinger: Absolutely. We certainly can. Thank you, James, for your time today, and I hope we've inspired encouraged many of our listeners to include some, if not all, of these hidden gems in their visit to Switzerland. As you've said, I'm sure they won't be disappointed. It certainly doesn't mean missing out on a fantastic Swiss experience by not visiting only the hotspots. As you said, yes, you should, you should visit those hotspots because they're popular for a very good reason. Don't limit yourself just to them. Include one or two or three of these other lesser-known places as well.

James Wilson: Quite right. And as always, Carolyn, thanks very much for having me on the show.

Carolyn Schönafinger: My pleasure. Does this itinerary or any of the destinations we chatted about today appeal to you? I loved my stays in Winterthur and Savognin in autumn 2025, and I can highly recommend them as fantastic destinations to visit. It. I'd love to hear if you're planning to visit any of the destinations that James mentioned today. If you are, send me an email to podcast@holidaystoswitzerland.com and let me know, and I'll be sure to let James know too. You can find the show notes for this episode with all the links at holidaystoswitzerland.com/episode185. Until next week, when I'll be back with more Swiss travel tips and inspiration, Tschüss! Or adià, as they say in Romansch.