Speaker 2: This is the Rebel HR podcast, the podcast about all
things innovation in the people's space.
I'm Kyle Rode.
Let's start the show.
Welcome back, rebel HR community.
We are going to have a fun conversation today.
With us we have the one the only, callie Bakken.
She is the founder of WiggleWork.
Had the joy of getting to interact directly with Callie at
Disrupt HR Twin Cities here a few weeks ago and she has
graciously joined us on the podcast.
Callie, thanks for joining us.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much.
I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 2: Well, we are so incredibly excited to have you.
You know, I think, from my standpoint, we are kindred
spirits and the belief of what HR can be, and so my first
question for you is I'd like to understand what motivated you to
found your company Wiggle Work.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's fun and kind of full circle, because it
started out as a Disrupt HR talk.
Actually, one of the things that I talked about was
corporate child care is the biggest missed opportunity for
being able to basically create your own returns in a workforce,
and so I started talking about it, found out that a lot of
people aren't doing it because it's just too complicated.
People aren't doing it because it's just too complicated, and
then I had my own.
I guess I had my own child before that, but mostly, seeing
the climate around child care, the fact that I've been on
infant child care lists since April of 2022, and my name isn't
going to come up for another year at least really helped me
see that really someone needs to do something about this, and I
guess it needs to be me.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.
So we, we're gonna, we're gonna go down the rabbit hole here,
because I think childcare is one of those areas.
It's like everybody knows it's an issue, but so many of us just
throw our hands up and say, well, yeah, that sucks.
Um, you know great example here .
So, uh, a couple of years ago, uh, I was an HR director at a
manufacturing facility and we realized that we were losing a
significant amount of new hires every single month because they
could not figure out the childcare issue.
Um, to the tune we we calc'd out the cost of turnover.
It was like $20,000 a month that it was costing us in
turnover expense because of daycare.
And we were like, well, how can we fix this?
But you know, you start peeling back the layers of the onion
and you realize, well, it's hard to run a daycare.
There's a lot of rules and regulations.
And we put together a coalition of employers and, thankfully, a
couple of the employers stepped up and and I'll give them a
shout out here UnityPoint Health , one of our local health
systems, actually helped us, found a daycare center called
Cedar Valley Kids that now breaks ground in April, but it
took seven years.
It took seven years of doing this and I think but I think the
reality is we didn't have a driver, like we didn't have
somebody like you who was like driving the actions on a regular
basis, and we kind of languished for a few years,
quite frankly, as a bunch of employers that really didn't
know what we were doing, and thankfully we had a coalition
that came together and some community leaders that that
helped us put this thing together.
But, um, yeah, good for you for , for, for recognizing this need
and and for addressing it.
So, um, so, as you, as you think about the um, the work
that you're doing at Wigglework and your, your experience in
kind of organizational systems and what you've labeled as
human-centered progress, how do you identify where to start?
Because so often I feel like that's the issue, like we know
there's an issue but we don't know where it falls on the level
of priority.
We don't really know where to start.
We need kind of that help prioritizing.
How do you approach that conundrum as kind of that
systems person?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I've been told that my superpower is being
able to see the end of the book , and how to start that to get
to the end.
Where I struggle is getting people along fast enough to be
able to see the chapters in between, and so I think you have
to start by having an end game, right.
If we don't know where we want to get, how do we possibly pick
a starting point to work toward that?
And also the idea that it's never going to be perfect, right
.
But getting started and taking that action rather than delaying
to your point about taking seven years to get that child
care center in place and ready to break ground we just have to
get started, and it doesn't have to be the perfect spot.
So I think that flexibility and confidence in anywhere is
better than nowhere is really the best place to start.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, like I said, kindred spirits, I
couldn't agree more.
Sometimes the most important action is that you just take a
step, whether it's the exact perfect step forward or not.
And so, yeah, I want to unpack this a little bit, because I
think I know we're talking specific to, like daycare and
the work that you know, wiggle work.
But, like the reality is, I feel like this is so much of HR in
general, because there's so much of these things that we do that
are they're fairly vague, right , like we have this end goal,
like the end goal might be, we're trying to reduce turnover
by whatever percent, because we know turnover is expensive and
terrible and we can't train well .
So when every time somebody leaves, leaves, they get worse
training, the new hire gets worse training, and there's all
these like there's all these things we're trying to do at HR,
but so often we're dealing with organizational decisions that
are very short-sighted.
You know, we might know that it's a three-year vision to
achieve our goal, but we got to make the quarterly results right
, or we get this flavor in a month issue, or you've got to do
this is what's most important this month to this leader.
So we go chase that way and then kind of avoid what we know
is the bigger goal.
So, as you're thinking about systems and you're thinking
about the work that you do, how do you help that kind of these
people who are to pull in a lot of different directions, where
we've got all these different priorities and I've got a team
that maybe doesn't see the forest from the trees or doesn't
see this kind of this end destination.
How can we help our organizations overcome that?
Speaker 1: Help them get out of their own way, simplify their
thoughts with it.
We don't have to have a policy in place before we start
something.
In fact, it's probably better if we figure out the policy
along the way, because then we know what we need to have
included in it.
It seems to me like we get caught and hung up a lot in
semantics, and I get it.
Hr people are perfectionists, they care deeply about people
and they don't want to mess it up.
But often that's where things get messed up is we take too
long or we try to have every single piece spelled out, and
that's impossible.
People are messy and we have to acknowledge that people are
messy and lead from that positioning if we're going to
get anywhere.
Speaker 2: Totally.
Yeah, I couldn't agree.
Couldn't agree more.
We probably don't have time to talk about like policies and
like my vitriol for for this policy, first approach, but I
couldn't agree.
Like policies have a place, compliance has a place, you know
, like all this stuff does.
It does matter, but it makes no sense to try to build a
structure for a policy when you don't even know the full picture
of what you're doing, right.
And you don't have to have a policy when you don't even know
the the full picture of what you're doing right.
And you don't have to have a policy to give direction to
people, right, like that's the other thing, like these are
human beings.
We're messing.
We don't necessarily know, know the answers, um so okay.
So for those of us that because so I think there's my theory is
there's two camps of hr, right, like there's the, there's like
the, the HR that's like like policies are necessary evil.
And then there's like HR that's like they like to lead with,
like got to have policies and have everything completely
documented.
You know, and I and I I'm not saying that one is right or
wrong, but I'm saying that there's kind of like, there's a
happy balance.
So, for those that are on the policy person side of the coin,
and as you're helping these organizations, what's your
approach to help them overcome that fear or that resistance?
Because there's a lot of us right.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of us in that camp.
I think you have to understand the drivers behind why they feel
that way.
I think a lot of the people that give HR a bad name are
people who have that thought process because they're very
type A, they like control, they saw HR as an opportunity to be
in a position of control and, quite honestly, those are people
that I probably will not work with if I have a choice, because
fundamentally we disagree about why we're in the seat that
we're in.
You know, I have always been unapologetically, employee first
and I know that that's not an easy seat to sit in and it's
caused a lot of problems for me as an employee.
But ultimately, I care about creating a great experience
where people spend majority of their time, and if I'm not
driving an organization in that direction, where we can see that
you can have a good employee experience and that also limits
your liability from a legal standpoint, then we're not going
to work well together.
So I don't want to say, like, throw the baby out with the
bathwater.
All of those people should go away, because of course, we do
have a very structured system that we need to follow in a lot
of places.
But I think we have to drive the conversation in a way that
makes sense, both for who we are fundamentally and what we're
trying to accomplish as practitioners, and understanding
what are we going to need to bring that person along with us.
And if that person is very, very rule control driven, then
you need to speak that language too, but try to do it in a way
that helps them to understand.
I guess the power from a policy standpoint in building the
people into that process rather than being fearful of
consequences when something goes awry.
Speaker 2: Right, right, yeah, I know those people.
You know those HR people.
I I mean it just like I can't tell you.
It takes about two seconds when I'm interacting with an HR
professional to figure out are they like, are they somebody I
want to associate with or not.
And so often it's about like you can just sense that they
like they love the power, they love the control, they want to
be in charge, they want to tell people what to do, boss them
around.
You know I'm here to protect the company.
You know I'm not on anyone's side.
I'm here to enforce the rules.
You know it's like I'm like cool, great, see you later.
I'll talk to you never, right, like it's like these are just
not my people.
There's a lot of them in HR.
I mean, there really are.
They're probably not listening to this podcast right now, so I
think I can probably speak freely.
Like you know, don't be an HR asshole.
But I also think the reality is that's a large part of the
corporate population as well.
Like there's a lot of senior leaders that are in that exact
headspace and a lot of times, I think a lot of the frustrations
I deal with and other HR professionals deal with in kind
of the corporate setting is you have to work with these people
and you have to like find ways to like overcome these kind of
silly approaches.
So, so what?
What advice do you give us when we don't have a choice to but
but to work with these people?
And I know you like you're, you're, you're like, like I'm
like sitting here, I'm just like you know, hats off, you did it.
You can choose not to work with those people, but for those of
us that can't, what guidance would you give us?
Speaker 1: I think you have to lead from authenticity right of
you can be courteous, you can know your shit better than they
do and you can show them the results, and that's really all
you can do, right, like you don't have to try to play a game
against them or try to out people, please, because they're
always going to be saying the right thing in front of the
right people, because that's the only people they care about,
and I don't know, I'm not interested in playing that game,
but I can still.
I can still interact with you in a way that's respectful,
while placing boundaries in place, and I think that that's
the boundary piece is really really hard, but that's maybe
the most important piece, because otherwise there's no
shame for them in trying to step around you or above you.
So you just have to be better than them and, honestly, it's
not that hard, because usually they're just a yes person and
strategy is always going to win out if you have the skills to be
able to communicate that strategy going to HR.
Speaker 2: You know, and we can unpack that.
I know you're a, you know you went to college for psychology,
so we can unpack like all the psychological, like trying to
heal, you know, your, your, your childhood trauma, wounds,
whatever, like your people pleasing because it gave you
accolades when you were a child, et cetera.
But there's a lot of us in HR, right, myself included.
I'm kind of a natural kind of people pleaser, um, but I think
the reality is like if you say yes too much, if you are just
like a, you're a yes person, eventually people will not come
to you for what you are most important, which is giving
advice, right, helping support your team, like being a, you
know, sounding board true decisions and ideas and thoughts
.
And hey, what do you think the team's going to think about this
decision?
How does this feel to you?
Those are these kinds of things that, in my opinion, is where we
add value.
So, if you're a yes person or you're a people pleaser and I
guess the question that I would ask is a question one of my
mentors asked me a long time ago and to this day it still leaves
a ripple and that is who are you and what do you stand for,
because if you are just a yes person, the answer is I don't
know and nothing, so which is a miserable place to be, and I've
been there.
Speaker 1: I think there are people who are interested in
contemplating that question and there are people who don't care,
and maybe that's the distinction.
Speaker 2: I like it.
Okay, Paul, that's right.
A little bit more so for the people that don't give a shit,
they're just happy to just fill the role, smile, it fits my
worldview and I can go to work and be miserable and go home and
complain about work and that's just the life that I'm okay with
.
Yeah, what do you do?
How do you?
How do you drive change in those organizations?
Speaker 1: So I'll flip that on you a little bit.
I think the ones who are miserable are the ones who care,
who have to work with those people.
I think those people close their eyes and they can go to
bed at night okay, I like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, the so, the , the, the assholes that don't
give a shit are the ones that are blissfully ignorant because
they just don't care.
There's, there's comfort in ignorance.
There is totally.
Yeah, there's a value in not giving a shit.
Um so, but for those of us that can't not give a shit, what do
we do?
Speaker 1: I think for me, the most freeing thing has been
starting to realize who those people are and that I can't
change them and I'm not going to fight it anymore, which has
also again caused a lot of problems for me, which has also
again caused a lot of problems for me.
But coming out on the other side of it now I feel so much
better because I know in my gut I cared for the right reasons
and I'm working toward making change for the right reasons
versus just following along with the status quo, and that's the
most comfort I can take at this point, I guess, is that I do
give a shit and that that's a good thing, it's not a bad thing
.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'm fascinated in some of this.
You know some of this research and I, you know, I certainly
have my own personal opinions around it.
But, um and we talked about this a little bit when I in my
disrupt talk where which is that people who are acting outside
of their own integrity and playing a role at work like
they're on, they're almost like an actor at work or on a team's
call or whatever um, that's just going to burn you out, you're
just going to be miserable.
And I think that is a lot of people that really do care, and
that's why we see so much burnout in HR.
That's why we see a lot of turnover in HR positions,
because it's people who care and are just looking for help.
And one of the things I want to talk about, like the thread I
want to pull on there, is related to some of your work in
human-centered systems, and I know that you did, you know
you've done a lot related to kind of employee well-being and
so for those of us that are kind of in that camp where we're a
little bit burned out, we feel like we have to play a role.
We're putting a mask on at work most of the time.
We feel like we have to play a role.
We're putting a mask on at work most of the time, you know.
Speaker 1: What guidance would you give us as it relates to,
like how do we, how can we build a system or an environment
where we can thrive, where we can actually care and not feel
helpless?
That is a big, big question, I mean.
I think you're choosing authenticity is important, right
?
You know, being able to at least find ways that you can be
yourself, if it's showing your tattoos, or you know, taking
that little moment of rebellion to stand up against the weird
thing that someone said that you're like, I don't think that
makes sense and you don't have to be a jerk about it, right?
But like, where are the places that we can start to push back
and find other people who are like us in those organizations?
Because then we can start to build our own little pod that
can gain influence and bring others like us in.
And at one point, at some point , one of those is going to win
out, right?
Either we're going to leave because we broke and we want to
go somewhere else, and maybe that was the right choice, but
if we can try to use our power for good, find other people who
also feel the same way, at least there's comfort in knowing I'm
not crazy.
Other people also care.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that kind of reminds me of the Fred Rogers
quote right, like in a crisis, go find the helpers and that'll
help, you see your way through.
Right, like, we do exist.
And I'm a, I'm a big believer, like I'm kind of a.
I'm a, maybe a, you know, an over, uh, an overwhelming
optimist at times, or maybe overly optimistic at times.
But, you know, the reality is I truly believe that I think most
people do have good intentions, right?
Um, it's just the way that those behaviors and actions
present themselves don't necessarily show that, and so I
think so much of it is finding, like, finding your, yeah, you
know, your group, your people that that align with you, the
people that do allow you to kind of be your own weird authentic
self.
And I side note, there are times where you got to mask up, right
, like I think about.
Like, like, every time I have to fire somebody, it's horrible,
freaking horrible.
And the other piece of advice one of my mentors gave me was
the minute that it's not horrible, go find a new job.
Right, like everybody should hate terminating people.
That's like, yeah, that's horrible.
A lot of times you have to put a mask on for that, right, like
you can't let your full authentic self show it, you have
to put a little bit of you know .
Speaker 1: It's like parenting right Like you can't.
You have to show confidence even when you're not.
You have not met Lisa Hannum, I don't believe, but she spoke at
Disrupt Minneapolis last year and talked about welcome to the
table.
We're all terrified and, I think, recognizing that
everybody, everybody is just trying to figure it out and you
don't want to show your chaos Like that's.
I think that that's a skill that is really important.
So I appreciate you clarifying that that authenticity doesn't
mean like, well, I'm a Muppet and everything is not higher.
Speaker 2: I will say one of the most, like maybe one of the
more important decisions I made in my career related directly to
this, which was, um, I am going to be 100% authentic about what
I believe to be true and what I don't feel like I have enough
information to know, right, and I think that that's that's a
really important distinction where, like I think, a lot of
times in HR, we're trying to figure out what's going on,
trying to figure out how people are feeling, trying to figure
out behaviors.
A lot of times it's like holding a cloud because you don't
really necessarily know.
Now, that being said, there are ways to get reasonably
comfortable that what you believe is correct, but at a
certain point you're still operating off intuition a lot of
times, right, and that's where, like I think you and I would
agree, like that's where, like having the right system in place
really matters, right.
So, as you think about that and you think about kind of the new
world of work and the work that you're doing with organizations
and helping them kind of figure out these human centered
programs, what are some of these organizational systems that you
recommend that we invest our time and energy kind of figuring
out or building within our organizations so we can operate
with the best data that we can get and make sure that we are
making really good, like broad, human centered decisions, as
opposed to listening to, like you know, the squeaky wheels
that get the greases and to use that you know colloquial saying.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know the average person isn't going to
tell you what they need, right?
They're going to expect that.
You already understand that, and we need to think that way
about human data as well.
If you're getting your data from a survey, you're doing it
wrong because that's only going to give you a sliver of truth.
Well, there's so much context behind any response, given
whether it's a truthful response or a protective response, and
so I think, recognizing that we probably have more data
available to us at HR than any other department has and we
squander it that is one of my big soapbox of, like you know,
if you're looking at benefit data, you're looking at 401k
utilization data.
One of my favorite things to tell everyone to look at is are
people actually changing their contributions or their
designations for their retirement fund?
Get access to that.
There's no way you can't track that data down by talking to one
person, probably, and you will learn so much about the
financial health of your people by understanding that If
everyone's putting their 3.5% at hire into a target fund and
they never move it ever again, that is not a very financially
savvy group of people and there's a lot of ways that you
can support them and understand them more effectively.
Take that same idea into your health data, into your PTO data.
The other one that I get really crazy about is you should not
have all of your PTO being designated six months in advance
.
If people don't have the ability to say today is not a
good day, I can't come, that is a problem, and you can see that
in the data of when our request turned in versus when is that
being taken?
So, starting to think differently about.
Where are we getting our data from?
How can we try to poke holes in our data to see if we're on the
right track or if we're following a red herring?
That is all really important.
One of my favorite exercises to do in speaking is trying to
work through an example where people follow their gut right
and people want to just prove that what they think to be true
is what's true.
We don't actively think about disproving what we think is true
to make sure that we know it's true.
We don't actively think about disproving what we think is true
to make sure that we know it's true, and so that's a really fun
exercise to do with HR people.
Coming back from an example I did in 300-level psych classes
to show that we are really fallible in how we follow our
gut versus making sure that our gut is founded in accuracy and
trying to think about it differently.
That way, I think the two theories I get really excited
about one the Dunning-Kruger effect right.
The less we know about something, the more certain that
we have it all figured out we are.
So when you start to question things, you're on the right
track.
That's exactly what you should be doing.
It shows that you know enough about that.
And the other is Occam's razor and usually the most simple.
This most simple answer is probably the most likely answer
and getting out of our own heads to think was this ill intent?
What is going on?
Those things are really really important, especially when we're
tackling some of those big issues within the company,
especially if there's any sort of questions about culture and
how people are feeling about their place of work.
Speaker 2: Totally, I love it, I love it.
I'm going to take it one step further and say here's the deal
HR professionals listening to this, or people leaders, or
anybody.
The reality is some of us aren't very good at this,
neither are our teams, and so, like I actually think we have a
mandate and a call to action as HR professionals to make sure
that we broadcast that out to our teams so that they're not
falling prey to the Dunning-Kruger effect or
confirmation bias or whatever kind of psychological you know
term you want to place on it.
The reality is we should know this stuff, like we should be
the practitioners that understand human behavior better
than anybody else in our company, and we should be the
ones kind of like shouting from a rooftop like wait a minute,
wait a minute, wait a minute.
Don't outsmart your common sense.
This is way more complicated than it needs to be.
The reality is they just told us they feel like they should be
paid more, and here's the market data they should probably be
paid more.
This isn't, you know, this isn't some grandiose strategic
plan to go.
You know, do whatever right.
They're just literally like we should probably do this.
And oh, by the way, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, like here's
all the data that supports it, right?
Or, yeah, the fact that this entire population hasn't
increased their 401k contributions.
Oh, by the way, I can go see 401k loan data.
Oh, wow, we've got 25% of this specific group of people that
are taking a 401k loan.
That might be an issue.
We should use that as a leading indicator that potentially
there's some wage issues that we need to go take a look at right
, like that's a really valuable proactive hr product.
There's.
There's all these sorts of things that we can do and we
should do, but many of us, I think, are comfortable just
saying, yeah, this is what it is , it's the way it is and that's
what.
So I want to.
I want to talk about this.
You mentioned this already.
You mentioned being employee first.
You know and, and, and you see this, you see all this stuff out
there.
Right, it was like HR should be .
Hr is neutral, hr works for the company.
Hr should be employee first.
Walk me through your theory of employee first HR and what that
means for you and why you believe that HR should be that.
Speaker 1: If you pay attention to the research, you should know
that that's true.
When we talk about 70 plus percent of people being
disengaged at work and the billions of dollars that's
costing us and lost productivity , it only makes sense that
building a system where employees are involved and
considered has huge financial returns to the company, and so I
think we've gotten in this place where we think that there
is some us versus them, but it's really us and them, and it
always has been.
Especially in a time when there's so much distrust of
employees, of employees there's so much distrust of employers
and whether or not employees are considered in the decisions
being made.
The companies that are going to win out are the ones that can
show that it is us together and lead from that place.
Speaker 2: Absolutely so.
I recoil, I get pissed when I hear this argument, because the
answer to all these questions is yes.
The answer is yes.
I am here for the employee.
The answer is yes.
I am here for the company.
The answer is yes.
I'm here to be neutral.
It's situational, right.
Like people are messy, you can't say I'm totally polarized.
I, I'm totally polarized over here.
I'm totally polarized over here .
My thesis, my theory, is that if you are making decisions in
the context of what's right for my employees success, happiness,
engagement, motivation that will unequivocally always ripple
positively for the organization .
But the reality of the job is sometimes you have to make tough
decisions, right, but again, you still have to make it in the
context of what's the best thing for the people in my
company.
If you're making decisions based on any different context,
you're the wrong freaking job in my opinion.
But that's just me.
What do I know?
Speaker 1: No, I couldn't agree more.
It's like hearing about mass layoff situations where people
are finding out from a zoom call or they don't even get that
because their computer just gets locked up and that's how
they're finding out.
You know, maybe some of those people are really happy to be
done with your bs and that's great, but at least leave them
feeling like you cared, that they were there in the first
place.
And it's not that hard to show that it's a tough decision.
I think the default in trying to have that strong face or be
that pillar when it's tough for you.
I think sometimes we get in our head a little bit too much
about what that looks like.
And you can still be concise, thoughtful, and how would I like
this to be handled if I were in that seat instead, if you're
looking at it from that lens, you can still do the right thing
, even when it's a hard thing to do.
Speaker 2: Right, right, I totally agree.
I couldn't agree more and I think that, um, I think that
this is a really great place to kind of leave it with people
right, it's, it's, it's goes back to.
In my opinion, it goes back to that like being authentic to
yourself.
You know, what do you believe to be true in your core?
What is the data support?
Have we eliminated all the biases?
Are we making the right decisions for people?
And then, at the end of the day , how are we actually treating
people?
And and you know, I tell people this all the time they ask, like
, I tell, first of all, I tell them what my job is and they say
, oh, my god, I wouldn't want to ever do that job.
That sounds horrible.
But I tell people everything I learned in my job I learned in
kindergarten.
Right, just because something's simple doesn't mean it's easy,
um, and so you know, going back to everything I learned in my
job, I learned in kindergarten, right, just because something's
simple doesn't mean it's easy.
And so you know, going back to the golden rule, going back to
people first, like you know, be kind.
All these things, in my opinion , are what we need to be for our
organization.
So thank you for supporting that work, and I can't wait to
see what wiggle work turns into.
We're all going to say, yeah, we knew Callie.
We knew Callie when she was just starting this thing.
With that being said, I appreciate that.
Speaker 1: I'm so grateful that there are people like you at the
top of companies, showing what it can look like.
I think there's a reason why we're seeing a lot of people
heading up HR in big companies coming out of other areas and I
know that people get really mad about that the head of sales or
the head of marketing that's doing it and it's because they
figured out something that a message of one hope that HR
doesn't have to be this awful doom and gloom, you know, throw
down the hammer sort of department, but also that people
can rise to the top by having a people first mentality.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know we're in, we're in the holiday
season, so for those of you that celebrate, you know, be a true
believer, like we do exist.
I did come out of IT and operations, though, so I can't
like I'm in that camp, although I've been in HR for almost 20
years now.
So it's, you know, it's, it's, I think I'm officially an HR
professional.
But yeah, we can, we can make change.
So with that, callie, this is a great segue to our Rebel HR
Flashroom.
So I'm fascinated to hear your responses.
Question number one where do we need to rebel?
Speaker 1: Everywhere.
If you're not rebelling or thinking about where change
needs to happen, it probably means you're a little too
comfortable.
Speaker 2: I love it.
I love it Be comfortable with discomfort, because the minute
you rest on your laurel, something's going to go sideways
.
Question number two who should we be listening to?
Speaker 1: So I'm going to go a little bit off and say there's
lots and lots of amazing people in HR and direct HR, supporting
places that I could mention, but I'm going to mention the Brainy
Business because maybe that's a place that your people haven't
already found, but the intersection between economics
and psychology is a really, really important place for HR
people to be right now and she does a really, really great job
introducing introducing HR people, I think, to some pretty
cool concepts that can change the way we think about people
operations.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I totally agree, and I think I think one
of the most profound things you can do as HR professional is
expand your aperture to other disciplines, because it all ties
together back to human behavior .
So like economics is a great example.
I agree.
I find like behavioral economics absolutely fascinating
and I find that that informs a lot of the work I do as an HR
professional.
So final question how can our listeners connect with you,
learn more and find out about Wigglework?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I spend too much time on LinkedIn, so that's
an easy place to find me.
I have not officially announced Wigglework.
I want my website to be pretty, so you know I talk about not
waiting to get started, but I need to have something, and so I
will have an official announcement linking to my
website all of that kind of stuff very, very, very soon.
But LinkedIn is the best place to find me and probably will
continue to be that for a while.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
We'll have a link to that in the show notes.
Hop on in check it out.
Follow Callie's work.
I know that the videos from Disrupt Minneapolis are coming
out here in the near future, so keep an eye open for that.
Thank you so much for spending a few minutes with us here,
Callie, and thank you for helping drive change in the
world of HR.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
I'm so grateful for the chance to talk with you and know that
there's more of us out there.
Speaker 2: Power Thanks, all right, that does it for the
Rebel HR podcast.
Big thank you to our guests.
Follow us on Facebook at Rebel HR podcast, twitter at Rebel HR
guy, or see our website at rebelhumanresourcescom.
The views and opinions expressed by Rebel HR podcast
are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the
official policy or position of any of the organizations that we
represent.
No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast.
Baby.