1 00:00:03,024 --> 00:00:06,028 Speaker 2: This is the Rebel HR podcast, the podcast about all 2 00:00:06,149 --> 00:00:08,131 things innovation in the people's space. 3 00:00:08,131 --> 00:00:09,614 I'm Kyle Rode. 4 00:00:09,614 --> 00:00:10,595 Let's start the show. 5 00:00:10,595 --> 00:00:16,722 Welcome back, rebel HR community. 6 00:00:16,722 --> 00:00:19,185 We are going to have a fun conversation today. 7 00:00:19,185 --> 00:00:22,570 With us we have the one the only, callie Bakken. 8 00:00:22,570 --> 00:00:24,753 She is the founder of WiggleWork. 9 00:00:24,753 --> 00:00:29,265 Had the joy of getting to interact directly with Callie at 10 00:00:29,265 --> 00:00:33,838 Disrupt HR Twin Cities here a few weeks ago and she has 11 00:00:33,878 --> 00:00:35,804 graciously joined us on the podcast. 12 00:00:35,804 --> 00:00:36,786 Callie, thanks for joining us. 13 00:00:37,368 --> 00:00:38,030 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. 14 00:00:38,030 --> 00:00:38,871 I'm excited to be here. 15 00:00:39,700 --> 00:00:42,125 Speaker 2: Well, we are so incredibly excited to have you. 16 00:00:42,125 --> 00:00:45,552 You know, I think, from my standpoint, we are kindred 17 00:00:45,593 --> 00:00:50,448 spirits and the belief of what HR can be, and so my first 18 00:00:50,487 --> 00:00:55,482 question for you is I'd like to understand what motivated you to 19 00:00:55,482 --> 00:00:58,250 found your company Wiggle Work. 20 00:00:59,052 --> 00:01:02,021 Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's fun and kind of full circle, because it 21 00:01:02,021 --> 00:01:03,865 started out as a Disrupt HR talk. 22 00:01:03,865 --> 00:01:10,962 Actually, one of the things that I talked about was 23 00:01:10,983 --> 00:01:12,566 corporate child care is the biggest missed opportunity for 24 00:01:12,585 --> 00:01:15,834 being able to basically create your own returns in a workforce, 25 00:01:15,834 --> 00:01:19,956 and so I started talking about it, found out that a lot of 26 00:01:19,995 --> 00:01:22,579 people aren't doing it because it's just too complicated. 27 00:01:22,579 --> 00:01:27,859 People aren't doing it because it's just too complicated, and 28 00:01:27,879 --> 00:01:28,340 then I had my own. 29 00:01:28,340 --> 00:01:29,941 I guess I had my own child before that, but mostly, seeing 30 00:01:30,001 --> 00:01:32,905 the climate around child care, the fact that I've been on 31 00:01:33,045 --> 00:01:37,010 infant child care lists since April of 2022, and my name isn't 32 00:01:37,010 --> 00:01:40,953 going to come up for another year at least really helped me 33 00:01:41,034 --> 00:01:44,902 see that really someone needs to do something about this, and I 34 00:01:44,941 --> 00:01:45,905 guess it needs to be me. 35 00:01:47,129 --> 00:01:47,712 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. 36 00:01:47,712 --> 00:01:50,361 So we, we're gonna, we're gonna go down the rabbit hole here, 37 00:01:50,460 --> 00:01:52,527 because I think childcare is one of those areas. 38 00:01:52,527 --> 00:01:57,344 It's like everybody knows it's an issue, but so many of us just 39 00:01:57,344 --> 00:01:59,569 throw our hands up and say, well, yeah, that sucks. 40 00:01:59,569 --> 00:02:02,483 Um, you know great example here . 41 00:02:02,483 --> 00:02:07,944 So, uh, a couple of years ago, uh, I was an HR director at a 42 00:02:07,963 --> 00:02:10,574 manufacturing facility and we realized that we were losing a 43 00:02:10,614 --> 00:02:13,804 significant amount of new hires every single month because they 44 00:02:13,843 --> 00:02:15,587 could not figure out the childcare issue. 45 00:02:16,490 --> 00:02:18,786 Um, to the tune we we calc'd out the cost of turnover. 46 00:02:18,786 --> 00:02:21,758 It was like $20,000 a month that it was costing us in 47 00:02:21,798 --> 00:02:24,224 turnover expense because of daycare. 48 00:02:24,224 --> 00:02:28,383 And we were like, well, how can we fix this? 49 00:02:28,383 --> 00:02:31,111 But you know, you start peeling back the layers of the onion 50 00:02:31,151 --> 00:02:33,647 and you realize, well, it's hard to run a daycare. 51 00:02:33,647 --> 00:02:35,353 There's a lot of rules and regulations. 52 00:02:35,353 --> 00:02:42,131 And we put together a coalition of employers and, thankfully, a 53 00:02:42,131 --> 00:02:45,888 couple of the employers stepped up and and I'll give them a 54 00:02:45,927 --> 00:02:48,763 shout out here UnityPoint Health , one of our local health 55 00:02:48,782 --> 00:02:52,770 systems, actually helped us, found a daycare center called 56 00:02:52,810 --> 00:02:57,562 Cedar Valley Kids that now breaks ground in April, but it 57 00:02:57,622 --> 00:02:58,667 took seven years. 58 00:02:59,741 --> 00:03:05,468 It took seven years of doing this and I think but I think the 59 00:03:05,468 --> 00:03:07,841 reality is we didn't have a driver, like we didn't have 60 00:03:07,921 --> 00:03:14,973 somebody like you who was like driving the actions on a regular 61 00:03:14,973 --> 00:03:17,084 basis, and we kind of languished for a few years, 62 00:03:17,245 --> 00:03:19,711 quite frankly, as a bunch of employers that really didn't 63 00:03:19,730 --> 00:03:22,866 know what we were doing, and thankfully we had a coalition 64 00:03:22,906 --> 00:03:25,520 that came together and some community leaders that that 65 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:26,782 helped us put this thing together. 66 00:03:26,782 --> 00:03:31,860 But, um, yeah, good for you for , for, for recognizing this need 67 00:03:31,860 --> 00:03:33,644 and and for addressing it. 68 00:03:33,644 --> 00:03:38,913 So, um, so, as you, as you think about the um, the work 69 00:03:38,933 --> 00:03:43,533 that you're doing at Wigglework and your, your experience in 70 00:03:43,655 --> 00:03:47,586 kind of organizational systems and what you've labeled as 71 00:03:47,705 --> 00:03:54,670 human-centered progress, how do you identify where to start? 72 00:03:54,670 --> 00:03:59,004 Because so often I feel like that's the issue, like we know 73 00:03:59,044 --> 00:04:01,885 there's an issue but we don't know where it falls on the level 74 00:04:01,885 --> 00:04:02,489 of priority. 75 00:04:02,489 --> 00:04:03,699 We don't really know where to start. 76 00:04:03,699 --> 00:04:06,429 We need kind of that help prioritizing. 77 00:04:06,429 --> 00:04:11,069 How do you approach that conundrum as kind of that 78 00:04:11,110 --> 00:04:11,850 systems person? 79 00:04:12,693 --> 00:04:15,965 Speaker 1: Yeah, so I've been told that my superpower is being 80 00:04:15,965 --> 00:04:21,673 able to see the end of the book , and how to start that to get 81 00:04:21,694 --> 00:04:22,134 to the end. 82 00:04:22,134 --> 00:04:26,761 Where I struggle is getting people along fast enough to be 83 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:30,949 able to see the chapters in between, and so I think you have 84 00:04:30,949 --> 00:04:33,160 to start by having an end game, right. 85 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:36,329 If we don't know where we want to get, how do we possibly pick 86 00:04:36,369 --> 00:04:38,300 a starting point to work toward that? 87 00:04:38,300 --> 00:04:43,189 And also the idea that it's never going to be perfect, right 88 00:04:43,189 --> 00:04:43,189 . 89 00:04:43,189 --> 00:04:47,184 But getting started and taking that action rather than delaying 90 00:04:47,184 --> 00:04:51,331 to your point about taking seven years to get that child 91 00:04:51,372 --> 00:04:54,930 care center in place and ready to break ground we just have to 92 00:04:54,971 --> 00:04:57,480 get started, and it doesn't have to be the perfect spot. 93 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:00,487 So I think that flexibility and confidence in anywhere is 94 00:05:00,507 --> 00:05:04,103 better than nowhere is really the best place to start. 95 00:05:09,420 --> 00:05:10,362 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, like I said, kindred spirits, I 96 00:05:10,401 --> 00:05:10,863 couldn't agree more. 97 00:05:10,863 --> 00:05:12,206 Sometimes the most important action is that you just take a 98 00:05:12,226 --> 00:05:15,860 step, whether it's the exact perfect step forward or not. 99 00:05:15,860 --> 00:05:19,052 And so, yeah, I want to unpack this a little bit, because I 100 00:05:19,091 --> 00:05:22,302 think I know we're talking specific to, like daycare and 101 00:05:22,322 --> 00:05:23,785 the work that you know, wiggle work. 102 00:05:24,144 --> 00:05:27,591 But, like the reality is, I feel like this is so much of HR in 103 00:05:27,632 --> 00:05:30,807 general, because there's so much of these things that we do that 104 00:05:30,807 --> 00:05:34,567 are they're fairly vague, right , like we have this end goal, 105 00:05:34,608 --> 00:05:36,600 like the end goal might be, we're trying to reduce turnover 106 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:40,485 by whatever percent, because we know turnover is expensive and 107 00:05:41,326 --> 00:05:42,726 terrible and we can't train well . 108 00:05:42,807 --> 00:05:44,730 So when every time somebody leaves, leaves, they get worse 109 00:05:44,769 --> 00:05:47,872 training, the new hire gets worse training, and there's all 110 00:05:47,913 --> 00:05:50,276 these like there's all these things we're trying to do at HR, 111 00:05:50,276 --> 00:05:54,028 but so often we're dealing with organizational decisions that 112 00:05:54,048 --> 00:05:54,970 are very short-sighted. 113 00:05:54,970 --> 00:05:58,141 You know, we might know that it's a three-year vision to 114 00:05:58,221 --> 00:06:02,449 achieve our goal, but we got to make the quarterly results right 115 00:06:02,449 --> 00:06:05,290 , or we get this flavor in a month issue, or you've got to do 116 00:06:05,290 --> 00:06:07,889 this is what's most important this month to this leader. 117 00:06:07,889 --> 00:06:12,547 So we go chase that way and then kind of avoid what we know 118 00:06:12,588 --> 00:06:13,670 is the bigger goal. 119 00:06:13,670 --> 00:06:17,742 So, as you're thinking about systems and you're thinking 120 00:06:17,762 --> 00:06:22,478 about the work that you do, how do you help that kind of these 121 00:06:22,519 --> 00:06:25,000 people who are to pull in a lot of different directions, where 122 00:06:25,021 --> 00:06:27,709 we've got all these different priorities and I've got a team 123 00:06:27,728 --> 00:06:30,505 that maybe doesn't see the forest from the trees or doesn't 124 00:06:30,505 --> 00:06:32,269 see this kind of this end destination. 125 00:06:32,269 --> 00:06:34,483 How can we help our organizations overcome that? 126 00:06:36,646 --> 00:06:39,072 Speaker 1: Help them get out of their own way, simplify their 127 00:06:39,132 --> 00:06:39,733 thoughts with it. 128 00:06:39,733 --> 00:06:43,524 We don't have to have a policy in place before we start 129 00:06:43,584 --> 00:06:44,026 something. 130 00:06:44,026 --> 00:06:47,451 In fact, it's probably better if we figure out the policy 131 00:06:47,490 --> 00:06:49,673 along the way, because then we know what we need to have 132 00:06:49,754 --> 00:06:50,435 included in it. 133 00:06:50,435 --> 00:06:54,850 It seems to me like we get caught and hung up a lot in 134 00:06:54,911 --> 00:06:58,947 semantics, and I get it. 135 00:06:58,947 --> 00:07:02,064 Hr people are perfectionists, they care deeply about people 136 00:07:02,125 --> 00:07:03,288 and they don't want to mess it up. 137 00:07:03,288 --> 00:07:06,964 But often that's where things get messed up is we take too 138 00:07:07,425 --> 00:07:12,740 long or we try to have every single piece spelled out, and 139 00:07:12,779 --> 00:07:13,622 that's impossible. 140 00:07:13,622 --> 00:07:16,810 People are messy and we have to acknowledge that people are 141 00:07:16,891 --> 00:07:19,665 messy and lead from that positioning if we're going to 142 00:07:19,685 --> 00:07:20,185 get anywhere. 143 00:07:21,468 --> 00:07:21,949 Speaker 2: Totally. 144 00:07:21,949 --> 00:07:22,952 Yeah, I couldn't agree. 145 00:07:22,952 --> 00:07:24,403 Couldn't agree more. 146 00:07:24,403 --> 00:07:27,043 We probably don't have time to talk about like policies and 147 00:07:27,083 --> 00:07:31,952 like my vitriol for for this policy, first approach, but I 148 00:07:31,992 --> 00:07:32,413 couldn't agree. 149 00:07:32,413 --> 00:07:35,447 Like policies have a place, compliance has a place, you know 150 00:07:35,447 --> 00:07:36,571 , like all this stuff does. 151 00:07:36,571 --> 00:07:39,951 It does matter, but it makes no sense to try to build a 152 00:07:40,012 --> 00:07:42,360 structure for a policy when you don't even know the full picture 153 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:42,903 of what you're doing, right. 154 00:07:42,903 --> 00:07:44,206 And you don't have to have a policy when you don't even know 155 00:07:44,226 --> 00:07:45,209 the the full picture of what you're doing right. 156 00:07:45,209 --> 00:07:47,896 And you don't have to have a policy to give direction to 157 00:07:47,937 --> 00:07:51,444 people, right, like that's the other thing, like these are 158 00:07:51,483 --> 00:07:51,904 human beings. 159 00:07:51,904 --> 00:07:52,446 We're messing. 160 00:07:52,505 --> 00:07:58,283 We don't necessarily know, know the answers, um so okay. 161 00:07:58,283 --> 00:08:01,329 So for those of us that because so I think there's my theory is 162 00:08:01,329 --> 00:08:03,783 there's two camps of hr, right, like there's the, there's like 163 00:08:03,824 --> 00:08:07,648 the, the HR that's like like policies are necessary evil. 164 00:08:07,648 --> 00:08:10,942 And then there's like HR that's like they like to lead with, 165 00:08:11,023 --> 00:08:14,262 like got to have policies and have everything completely 166 00:08:14,324 --> 00:08:14,846 documented. 167 00:08:14,846 --> 00:08:18,649 You know, and I and I I'm not saying that one is right or 168 00:08:18,728 --> 00:08:21,262 wrong, but I'm saying that there's kind of like, there's a 169 00:08:21,281 --> 00:08:21,963 happy balance. 170 00:08:21,963 --> 00:08:26,627 So, for those that are on the policy person side of the coin, 171 00:08:27,447 --> 00:08:29,649 and as you're helping these organizations, what's your 172 00:08:29,670 --> 00:08:34,815 approach to help them overcome that fear or that resistance? 173 00:08:34,815 --> 00:08:37,356 Because there's a lot of us right. 174 00:08:41,875 --> 00:08:42,940 Speaker 1: There's a lot of us in that camp. 175 00:08:42,940 --> 00:08:46,783 I think you have to understand the drivers behind why they feel 176 00:08:46,783 --> 00:08:46,962 that way. 177 00:08:46,962 --> 00:08:48,546 I think a lot of the people that give HR a bad name are 178 00:08:48,586 --> 00:08:52,392 people who have that thought process because they're very 179 00:08:52,432 --> 00:08:57,067 type A, they like control, they saw HR as an opportunity to be 180 00:08:57,168 --> 00:09:01,384 in a position of control and, quite honestly, those are people 181 00:09:01,384 --> 00:09:05,840 that I probably will not work with if I have a choice, because 182 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:08,828 fundamentally we disagree about why we're in the seat that 183 00:09:08,869 --> 00:09:09,250 we're in. 184 00:09:09,250 --> 00:09:15,190 You know, I have always been unapologetically, employee first 185 00:09:15,190 --> 00:09:18,063 and I know that that's not an easy seat to sit in and it's 186 00:09:18,104 --> 00:09:21,793 caused a lot of problems for me as an employee. 187 00:09:21,793 --> 00:09:26,697 But ultimately, I care about creating a great experience 188 00:09:26,839 --> 00:09:29,971 where people spend majority of their time, and if I'm not 189 00:09:30,033 --> 00:09:33,485 driving an organization in that direction, where we can see that 190 00:09:33,485 --> 00:09:37,217 you can have a good employee experience and that also limits 191 00:09:37,258 --> 00:09:42,083 your liability from a legal standpoint, then we're not going 192 00:09:42,083 --> 00:09:44,005 to work well together. 193 00:09:44,186 --> 00:09:46,148 So I don't want to say, like, throw the baby out with the 194 00:09:46,168 --> 00:09:46,769 bathwater. 195 00:09:46,769 --> 00:09:49,491 All of those people should go away, because of course, we do 196 00:09:49,591 --> 00:09:53,075 have a very structured system that we need to follow in a lot 197 00:09:53,095 --> 00:09:53,716 of places. 198 00:09:53,716 --> 00:10:00,005 But I think we have to drive the conversation in a way that 199 00:10:00,027 --> 00:10:01,293 makes sense, both for who we are fundamentally and what we're 200 00:10:01,312 --> 00:10:04,985 trying to accomplish as practitioners, and understanding 201 00:10:04,985 --> 00:10:08,253 what are we going to need to bring that person along with us. 202 00:10:08,253 --> 00:10:14,856 And if that person is very, very rule control driven, then 203 00:10:14,897 --> 00:10:18,403 you need to speak that language too, but try to do it in a way 204 00:10:18,943 --> 00:10:20,905 that helps them to understand. 205 00:10:20,905 --> 00:10:28,375 I guess the power from a policy standpoint in building the 206 00:10:28,414 --> 00:10:31,065 people into that process rather than being fearful of 207 00:10:31,125 --> 00:10:32,990 consequences when something goes awry. 208 00:10:34,039 --> 00:10:39,145 Speaker 2: Right, right, yeah, I know those people. 209 00:10:39,145 --> 00:10:42,890 You know those HR people. 210 00:10:42,890 --> 00:10:45,654 I I mean it just like I can't tell you. 211 00:10:45,654 --> 00:10:49,027 It takes about two seconds when I'm interacting with an HR 212 00:10:49,047 --> 00:10:51,562 professional to figure out are they like, are they somebody I 213 00:10:51,581 --> 00:10:52,644 want to associate with or not. 214 00:10:52,644 --> 00:10:56,965 And so often it's about like you can just sense that they 215 00:10:57,004 --> 00:11:00,373 like they love the power, they love the control, they want to 216 00:11:00,393 --> 00:11:03,731 be in charge, they want to tell people what to do, boss them 217 00:11:03,772 --> 00:11:04,293 around. 218 00:11:04,293 --> 00:11:06,763 You know I'm here to protect the company. 219 00:11:06,763 --> 00:11:09,349 You know I'm not on anyone's side. 220 00:11:09,349 --> 00:11:11,052 I'm here to enforce the rules. 221 00:11:11,052 --> 00:11:14,268 You know it's like I'm like cool, great, see you later. 222 00:11:14,268 --> 00:11:17,663 I'll talk to you never, right, like it's like these are just 223 00:11:17,683 --> 00:11:18,245 not my people. 224 00:11:19,086 --> 00:11:20,190 There's a lot of them in HR. 225 00:11:20,190 --> 00:11:21,211 I mean, there really are. 226 00:11:21,211 --> 00:11:23,351 They're probably not listening to this podcast right now, so I 227 00:11:23,371 --> 00:11:24,533 think I can probably speak freely. 228 00:11:24,533 --> 00:11:27,014 Like you know, don't be an HR asshole. 229 00:11:27,014 --> 00:11:34,215 But I also think the reality is that's a large part of the 230 00:11:34,274 --> 00:11:36,015 corporate population as well. 231 00:11:36,015 --> 00:11:39,996 Like there's a lot of senior leaders that are in that exact 232 00:11:40,076 --> 00:11:43,138 headspace and a lot of times, I think a lot of the frustrations 233 00:11:43,217 --> 00:11:45,937 I deal with and other HR professionals deal with in kind 234 00:11:45,957 --> 00:11:48,899 of the corporate setting is you have to work with these people 235 00:11:49,721 --> 00:11:53,750 and you have to like find ways to like overcome these kind of 236 00:11:53,850 --> 00:11:54,852 silly approaches. 237 00:11:54,852 --> 00:11:57,522 So, so what? 238 00:11:57,522 --> 00:12:01,932 What advice do you give us when we don't have a choice to but 239 00:12:02,111 --> 00:12:03,061 but to work with these people? 240 00:12:03,061 --> 00:12:05,304 And I know you like you're, you're, you're like, like I'm 241 00:12:05,345 --> 00:12:09,152 like sitting here, I'm just like you know, hats off, you did it. 242 00:12:09,152 --> 00:12:11,945 You can choose not to work with those people, but for those of 243 00:12:12,024 --> 00:12:14,071 us that can't, what guidance would you give us? 244 00:12:16,900 --> 00:12:21,583 Speaker 1: I think you have to lead from authenticity right of 245 00:12:22,144 --> 00:12:26,145 you can be courteous, you can know your shit better than they 246 00:12:26,206 --> 00:12:34,494 do and you can show them the results, and that's really all 247 00:12:34,553 --> 00:12:38,416 you can do, right, like you don't have to try to play a game 248 00:12:38,416 --> 00:12:42,133 against them or try to out people, please, because they're 249 00:12:42,293 --> 00:12:45,527 always going to be saying the right thing in front of the 250 00:12:45,567 --> 00:12:48,177 right people, because that's the only people they care about, 251 00:12:49,770 --> 00:12:52,658 and I don't know, I'm not interested in playing that game, 252 00:12:52,658 --> 00:12:53,642 but I can still. 253 00:12:53,642 --> 00:12:58,475 I can still interact with you in a way that's respectful, 254 00:12:58,636 --> 00:13:00,912 while placing boundaries in place, and I think that that's 255 00:13:01,493 --> 00:13:05,062 the boundary piece is really really hard, but that's maybe 256 00:13:05,101 --> 00:13:09,758 the most important piece, because otherwise there's no 257 00:13:09,837 --> 00:13:13,543 shame for them in trying to step around you or above you. 258 00:13:13,543 --> 00:13:16,123 So you just have to be better than them and, honestly, it's 259 00:13:16,182 --> 00:13:19,453 not that hard, because usually they're just a yes person and 260 00:13:19,514 --> 00:13:23,682 strategy is always going to win out if you have the skills to be 261 00:13:23,682 --> 00:13:38,211 able to communicate that strategy going to HR. 262 00:13:38,270 --> 00:13:38,913 Speaker 2: You know, and we can unpack that. 263 00:13:38,913 --> 00:13:40,421 I know you're a, you know you went to college for psychology, 264 00:13:40,442 --> 00:13:41,969 so we can unpack like all the psychological, like trying to 265 00:13:41,989 --> 00:13:44,456 heal, you know, your, your, your childhood trauma, wounds, 266 00:13:44,495 --> 00:13:47,111 whatever, like your people pleasing because it gave you 267 00:13:47,192 --> 00:13:48,996 accolades when you were a child, et cetera. 268 00:13:48,996 --> 00:13:51,690 But there's a lot of us in HR, right, myself included. 269 00:13:51,690 --> 00:13:57,653 I'm kind of a natural kind of people pleaser, um, but I think 270 00:13:57,692 --> 00:14:00,875 the reality is like if you say yes too much, if you are just 271 00:14:00,955 --> 00:14:04,275 like a, you're a yes person, eventually people will not come 272 00:14:04,296 --> 00:14:07,937 to you for what you are most important, which is giving 273 00:14:07,977 --> 00:14:13,360 advice, right, helping support your team, like being a, you 274 00:14:13,380 --> 00:14:16,822 know, sounding board true decisions and ideas and thoughts 275 00:14:16,822 --> 00:14:16,822 . 276 00:14:16,822 --> 00:14:19,222 And hey, what do you think the team's going to think about this 277 00:14:19,222 --> 00:14:20,604 decision? 278 00:14:20,604 --> 00:14:23,325 How does this feel to you? 279 00:14:23,365 --> 00:14:26,346 Those are these kinds of things that, in my opinion, is where we 280 00:14:26,346 --> 00:14:27,106 add value. 281 00:14:27,106 --> 00:14:37,269 So, if you're a yes person or you're a people pleaser and I 282 00:14:37,289 --> 00:14:39,515 guess the question that I would ask is a question one of my 283 00:14:39,535 --> 00:14:41,179 mentors asked me a long time ago and to this day it still leaves 284 00:14:41,179 --> 00:14:43,144 a ripple and that is who are you and what do you stand for, 285 00:14:43,830 --> 00:14:47,799 because if you are just a yes person, the answer is I don't 286 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:53,860 know and nothing, so which is a miserable place to be, and I've 287 00:14:53,879 --> 00:14:54,160 been there. 288 00:14:55,029 --> 00:14:58,083 Speaker 1: I think there are people who are interested in 289 00:14:58,125 --> 00:15:00,836 contemplating that question and there are people who don't care, 290 00:15:00,836 --> 00:15:02,953 and maybe that's the distinction. 291 00:15:02,974 --> 00:15:04,697 Speaker 2: I like it. 292 00:15:04,697 --> 00:15:06,041 Okay, Paul, that's right. 293 00:15:06,041 --> 00:15:08,595 A little bit more so for the people that don't give a shit, 294 00:15:08,956 --> 00:15:12,740 they're just happy to just fill the role, smile, it fits my 295 00:15:12,802 --> 00:15:17,224 worldview and I can go to work and be miserable and go home and 296 00:15:17,224 --> 00:15:20,696 complain about work and that's just the life that I'm okay with 297 00:15:20,696 --> 00:15:20,696 . 298 00:15:20,696 --> 00:15:24,145 Yeah, what do you do? 299 00:15:24,145 --> 00:15:24,587 How do you? 300 00:15:24,587 --> 00:15:24,969 How do you? 301 00:15:24,969 --> 00:15:26,475 How do you drive change in those organizations? 302 00:15:27,118 --> 00:15:29,167 Speaker 1: So I'll flip that on you a little bit. 303 00:15:29,167 --> 00:15:31,313 I think the ones who are miserable are the ones who care, 304 00:15:31,313 --> 00:15:32,618 who have to work with those people. 305 00:15:32,618 --> 00:15:35,913 I think those people close their eyes and they can go to 306 00:15:35,953 --> 00:15:38,639 bed at night okay, I like that. 307 00:15:38,659 --> 00:15:42,232 Speaker 2: Yeah, so, the so, the , the, the assholes that don't 308 00:15:42,274 --> 00:15:44,519 give a shit are the ones that are blissfully ignorant because 309 00:15:44,539 --> 00:15:45,330 they just don't care. 310 00:15:45,330 --> 00:15:48,517 There's, there's comfort in ignorance. 311 00:15:48,517 --> 00:15:50,159 There is totally. 312 00:15:50,159 --> 00:15:53,351 Yeah, there's a value in not giving a shit. 313 00:15:53,351 --> 00:15:58,663 Um so, but for those of us that can't not give a shit, what do 314 00:15:58,682 --> 00:15:59,024 we do? 315 00:16:01,711 --> 00:16:04,735 Speaker 1: I think for me, the most freeing thing has been 316 00:16:04,936 --> 00:16:10,482 starting to realize who those people are and that I can't 317 00:16:10,582 --> 00:16:14,773 change them and I'm not going to fight it anymore, which has 318 00:16:15,134 --> 00:16:19,245 also again caused a lot of problems for me, which has also 319 00:16:19,264 --> 00:16:20,326 again caused a lot of problems for me. 320 00:16:20,326 --> 00:16:35,072 But coming out on the other side of it now I feel so much 321 00:16:35,092 --> 00:16:36,735 better because I know in my gut I cared for the right reasons 322 00:16:36,755 --> 00:16:38,498 and I'm working toward making change for the right reasons 323 00:16:38,518 --> 00:16:40,160 versus just following along with the status quo, and that's the 324 00:16:40,321 --> 00:16:42,043 most comfort I can take at this point, I guess, is that I do 325 00:16:42,144 --> 00:16:44,467 give a shit and that that's a good thing, it's not a bad thing 326 00:16:44,467 --> 00:16:44,467 . 327 00:16:45,629 --> 00:16:47,452 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'm fascinated in some of this. 328 00:16:47,452 --> 00:16:52,379 You know some of this research and I, you know, I certainly 329 00:16:52,399 --> 00:16:54,802 have my own personal opinions around it. 330 00:16:54,802 --> 00:16:57,826 But, um and we talked about this a little bit when I in my 331 00:16:57,866 --> 00:17:04,180 disrupt talk where which is that people who are acting outside 332 00:17:04,220 --> 00:17:08,615 of their own integrity and playing a role at work like 333 00:17:08,634 --> 00:17:12,547 they're on, they're almost like an actor at work or on a team's 334 00:17:12,586 --> 00:17:17,234 call or whatever um, that's just going to burn you out, you're 335 00:17:17,255 --> 00:17:18,517 just going to be miserable. 336 00:17:18,517 --> 00:17:21,961 And I think that is a lot of people that really do care, and 337 00:17:21,981 --> 00:17:23,605 that's why we see so much burnout in HR. 338 00:17:23,605 --> 00:17:29,134 That's why we see a lot of turnover in HR positions, 339 00:17:29,174 --> 00:17:31,500 because it's people who care and are just looking for help. 340 00:17:33,509 --> 00:17:35,332 And one of the things I want to talk about, like the thread I 341 00:17:35,372 --> 00:17:39,073 want to pull on there, is related to some of your work in 342 00:17:39,756 --> 00:17:42,192 human-centered systems, and I know that you did, you know 343 00:17:42,875 --> 00:17:47,471 you've done a lot related to kind of employee well-being and 344 00:17:47,490 --> 00:17:51,717 so for those of us that are kind of in that camp where we're a 345 00:17:51,757 --> 00:17:55,422 little bit burned out, we feel like we have to play a role. 346 00:17:55,422 --> 00:17:57,865 We're putting a mask on at work most of the time. 347 00:17:57,865 --> 00:18:00,098 We feel like we have to play a role. 348 00:18:00,098 --> 00:18:11,891 We're putting a mask on at work most of the time, you know. 349 00:18:11,911 --> 00:18:13,115 Speaker 1: What guidance would you give us as it relates to, 350 00:18:13,135 --> 00:18:14,582 like how do we, how can we build a system or an environment 351 00:18:14,603 --> 00:18:16,128 where we can thrive, where we can actually care and not feel 352 00:18:16,148 --> 00:18:16,309 helpless? 353 00:18:16,490 --> 00:18:21,578 That is a big, big question, I mean. 354 00:18:21,578 --> 00:18:25,290 I think you're choosing authenticity is important, right 355 00:18:25,290 --> 00:18:25,290 ? 356 00:18:25,290 --> 00:18:28,058 You know, being able to at least find ways that you can be 357 00:18:28,098 --> 00:18:33,701 yourself, if it's showing your tattoos, or you know, taking 358 00:18:33,742 --> 00:18:36,711 that little moment of rebellion to stand up against the weird 359 00:18:36,770 --> 00:18:38,636 thing that someone said that you're like, I don't think that 360 00:18:38,655 --> 00:18:40,602 makes sense and you don't have to be a jerk about it, right? 361 00:18:40,602 --> 00:18:44,538 But like, where are the places that we can start to push back 362 00:18:44,699 --> 00:18:48,173 and find other people who are like us in those organizations? 363 00:18:48,173 --> 00:18:53,784 Because then we can start to build our own little pod that 364 00:18:53,824 --> 00:18:56,295 can gain influence and bring others like us in. 365 00:18:56,295 --> 00:19:01,173 And at one point, at some point , one of those is going to win 366 00:19:01,273 --> 00:19:01,755 out, right? 367 00:19:01,755 --> 00:19:04,290 Either we're going to leave because we broke and we want to 368 00:19:04,310 --> 00:19:07,638 go somewhere else, and maybe that was the right choice, but 369 00:19:07,818 --> 00:19:13,215 if we can try to use our power for good, find other people who 370 00:19:13,336 --> 00:19:17,221 also feel the same way, at least there's comfort in knowing I'm 371 00:19:17,301 --> 00:19:18,022 not crazy. 372 00:19:18,022 --> 00:19:19,724 Other people also care. 373 00:19:24,434 --> 00:19:27,039 Speaker 2: Yeah, that kind of reminds me of the Fred Rogers 374 00:19:27,101 --> 00:19:30,011 quote right, like in a crisis, go find the helpers and that'll 375 00:19:30,051 --> 00:19:31,353 help, you see your way through. 376 00:19:31,574 --> 00:19:34,678 Right, like, we do exist. 377 00:19:34,678 --> 00:19:39,443 And I'm a, I'm a big believer, like I'm kind of a. 378 00:19:39,443 --> 00:19:46,357 I'm a, maybe a, you know, an over, uh, an overwhelming 379 00:19:46,438 --> 00:19:48,823 optimist at times, or maybe overly optimistic at times. 380 00:19:48,823 --> 00:19:52,117 But, you know, the reality is I truly believe that I think most 381 00:19:52,117 --> 00:19:53,882 people do have good intentions, right? 382 00:19:53,882 --> 00:19:57,402 Um, it's just the way that those behaviors and actions 383 00:19:57,461 --> 00:20:02,659 present themselves don't necessarily show that, and so I 384 00:20:02,699 --> 00:20:05,586 think so much of it is finding, like, finding your, yeah, you 385 00:20:05,606 --> 00:20:08,776 know, your group, your people that that align with you, the 386 00:20:08,817 --> 00:20:13,089 people that do allow you to kind of be your own weird authentic 387 00:20:13,250 --> 00:20:13,590 self. 388 00:20:14,813 --> 00:20:18,137 And I side note, there are times where you got to mask up, right 389 00:20:18,137 --> 00:20:18,798 , like I think about. 390 00:20:18,798 --> 00:20:21,604 Like, like, every time I have to fire somebody, it's horrible, 391 00:20:21,604 --> 00:20:22,684 freaking horrible. 392 00:20:22,684 --> 00:20:26,159 And the other piece of advice one of my mentors gave me was 393 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:29,126 the minute that it's not horrible, go find a new job. 394 00:20:29,126 --> 00:20:31,917 Right, like everybody should hate terminating people. 395 00:20:31,917 --> 00:20:34,398 That's like, yeah, that's horrible. 396 00:20:34,398 --> 00:20:39,833 A lot of times you have to put a mask on for that, right, like 397 00:20:40,134 --> 00:20:42,391 you can't let your full authentic self show it, you have 398 00:20:42,391 --> 00:20:43,936 to put a little bit of you know . 399 00:20:44,109 --> 00:20:46,592 Speaker 1: It's like parenting right Like you can't. 400 00:20:46,592 --> 00:20:51,083 You have to show confidence even when you're not. 401 00:20:51,083 --> 00:20:55,713 You have not met Lisa Hannum, I don't believe, but she spoke at 402 00:20:55,713 --> 00:20:59,871 Disrupt Minneapolis last year and talked about welcome to the 403 00:20:59,911 --> 00:21:00,311 table. 404 00:21:00,311 --> 00:21:04,598 We're all terrified and, I think, recognizing that 405 00:21:05,099 --> 00:21:09,955 everybody, everybody is just trying to figure it out and you 406 00:21:09,996 --> 00:21:12,060 don't want to show your chaos Like that's. 407 00:21:12,060 --> 00:21:15,875 I think that that's a skill that is really important. 408 00:21:15,875 --> 00:21:19,022 So I appreciate you clarifying that that authenticity doesn't 409 00:21:19,083 --> 00:21:22,539 mean like, well, I'm a Muppet and everything is not higher. 410 00:21:24,045 --> 00:21:25,891 Speaker 2: I will say one of the most, like maybe one of the 411 00:21:25,931 --> 00:21:29,058 more important decisions I made in my career related directly to 412 00:21:29,058 --> 00:21:36,580 this, which was, um, I am going to be 100% authentic about what 413 00:21:36,580 --> 00:21:41,328 I believe to be true and what I don't feel like I have enough 414 00:21:41,368 --> 00:21:45,218 information to know, right, and I think that that's that's a 415 00:21:45,258 --> 00:21:47,992 really important distinction where, like I think, a lot of 416 00:21:48,032 --> 00:21:51,848 times in HR, we're trying to figure out what's going on, 417 00:21:51,868 --> 00:21:53,511 trying to figure out how people are feeling, trying to figure 418 00:21:53,531 --> 00:21:54,073 out behaviors. 419 00:21:54,473 --> 00:21:58,961 A lot of times it's like holding a cloud because you don't 420 00:21:59,041 --> 00:22:00,384 really necessarily know. 421 00:22:00,384 --> 00:22:05,403 Now, that being said, there are ways to get reasonably 422 00:22:05,482 --> 00:22:09,294 comfortable that what you believe is correct, but at a 423 00:22:09,354 --> 00:22:11,921 certain point you're still operating off intuition a lot of 424 00:22:11,921 --> 00:22:15,653 times, right, and that's where, like I think you and I would 425 00:22:15,673 --> 00:22:18,877 agree, like that's where, like having the right system in place 426 00:22:18,877 --> 00:22:20,680 really matters, right. 427 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:24,766 So, as you think about that and you think about kind of the new 428 00:22:24,766 --> 00:22:27,778 world of work and the work that you're doing with organizations 429 00:22:27,778 --> 00:22:30,272 and helping them kind of figure out these human centered 430 00:22:30,354 --> 00:22:33,886 programs, what are some of these organizational systems that you 431 00:22:33,886 --> 00:22:39,560 recommend that we invest our time and energy kind of figuring 432 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:44,116 out or building within our organizations so we can operate 433 00:22:44,136 --> 00:22:47,844 with the best data that we can get and make sure that we are 434 00:22:47,910 --> 00:22:52,740 making really good, like broad, human centered decisions, as 435 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,532 opposed to listening to, like you know, the squeaky wheels 436 00:22:55,593 --> 00:22:59,040 that get the greases and to use that you know colloquial saying. 437 00:22:59,602 --> 00:23:02,135 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know the average person isn't going to 438 00:23:02,155 --> 00:23:03,359 tell you what they need, right? 439 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:04,212 They're going to expect that. 440 00:23:04,212 --> 00:23:08,135 You already understand that, and we need to think that way 441 00:23:08,175 --> 00:23:09,540 about human data as well. 442 00:23:09,540 --> 00:23:12,682 If you're getting your data from a survey, you're doing it 443 00:23:12,741 --> 00:23:17,534 wrong because that's only going to give you a sliver of truth. 444 00:23:17,534 --> 00:23:21,318 Well, there's so much context behind any response, given 445 00:23:21,358 --> 00:23:28,050 whether it's a truthful response or a protective response, and 446 00:23:28,111 --> 00:23:33,938 so I think, recognizing that we probably have more data 447 00:23:34,038 --> 00:23:37,682 available to us at HR than any other department has and we 448 00:23:37,804 --> 00:23:41,857 squander it that is one of my big soapbox of, like you know, 449 00:23:41,897 --> 00:23:44,910 if you're looking at benefit data, you're looking at 401k 450 00:23:45,111 --> 00:23:46,213 utilization data. 451 00:23:46,615 --> 00:23:50,288 One of my favorite things to tell everyone to look at is are 452 00:23:50,327 --> 00:23:52,933 people actually changing their contributions or their 453 00:23:52,973 --> 00:23:54,979 designations for their retirement fund? 454 00:23:54,979 --> 00:23:56,903 Get access to that. 455 00:23:56,903 --> 00:24:01,753 There's no way you can't track that data down by talking to one 456 00:24:01,753 --> 00:24:05,221 person, probably, and you will learn so much about the 457 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,974 financial health of your people by understanding that If 458 00:24:09,135 --> 00:24:15,211 everyone's putting their 3.5% at hire into a target fund and 459 00:24:15,250 --> 00:24:19,922 they never move it ever again, that is not a very financially 460 00:24:19,961 --> 00:24:22,335 savvy group of people and there's a lot of ways that you 461 00:24:22,375 --> 00:24:25,041 can support them and understand them more effectively. 462 00:24:25,041 --> 00:24:30,163 Take that same idea into your health data, into your PTO data. 463 00:24:30,163 --> 00:24:34,676 The other one that I get really crazy about is you should not 464 00:24:34,737 --> 00:24:38,087 have all of your PTO being designated six months in advance 465 00:24:38,087 --> 00:24:38,087 . 466 00:24:38,087 --> 00:24:41,436 If people don't have the ability to say today is not a 467 00:24:41,477 --> 00:24:46,012 good day, I can't come, that is a problem, and you can see that 468 00:24:46,073 --> 00:24:49,060 in the data of when our request turned in versus when is that 469 00:24:49,101 --> 00:24:49,741 being taken? 470 00:24:50,691 --> 00:24:52,315 So, starting to think differently about. 471 00:24:52,315 --> 00:24:53,979 Where are we getting our data from? 472 00:24:53,979 --> 00:24:57,583 How can we try to poke holes in our data to see if we're on the 473 00:24:57,583 --> 00:25:00,212 right track or if we're following a red herring? 474 00:25:00,212 --> 00:25:02,858 That is all really important. 475 00:25:02,858 --> 00:25:06,695 One of my favorite exercises to do in speaking is trying to 476 00:25:06,756 --> 00:25:11,128 work through an example where people follow their gut right 477 00:25:11,169 --> 00:25:14,656 and people want to just prove that what they think to be true 478 00:25:14,917 --> 00:25:15,659 is what's true. 479 00:25:15,659 --> 00:25:18,830 We don't actively think about disproving what we think is true 480 00:25:18,830 --> 00:25:19,290 to make sure that we know it's true. 481 00:25:19,290 --> 00:25:19,711 We don't actively think about disproving what we think is true 482 00:25:19,711 --> 00:25:23,640 to make sure that we know it's true, and so that's a really fun 483 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:25,230 exercise to do with HR people. 484 00:25:25,311 --> 00:25:29,365 Coming back from an example I did in 300-level psych classes 485 00:25:29,885 --> 00:25:33,733 to show that we are really fallible in how we follow our 486 00:25:33,773 --> 00:25:39,963 gut versus making sure that our gut is founded in accuracy and 487 00:25:40,003 --> 00:25:41,452 trying to think about it differently. 488 00:25:41,452 --> 00:25:44,084 That way, I think the two theories I get really excited 489 00:25:44,104 --> 00:25:46,413 about one the Dunning-Kruger effect right. 490 00:25:46,413 --> 00:25:48,805 The less we know about something, the more certain that 491 00:25:48,805 --> 00:25:50,270 we have it all figured out we are. 492 00:25:50,270 --> 00:25:53,578 So when you start to question things, you're on the right 493 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:53,960 track. 494 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:55,711 That's exactly what you should be doing. 495 00:25:55,711 --> 00:25:57,454 It shows that you know enough about that. 496 00:25:57,454 --> 00:26:02,763 And the other is Occam's razor and usually the most simple. 497 00:26:02,763 --> 00:26:07,854 This most simple answer is probably the most likely answer 498 00:26:08,674 --> 00:26:12,843 and getting out of our own heads to think was this ill intent? 499 00:26:12,843 --> 00:26:14,092 What is going on? 500 00:26:14,092 --> 00:26:18,101 Those things are really really important, especially when we're 501 00:26:18,101 --> 00:26:20,512 tackling some of those big issues within the company, 502 00:26:20,794 --> 00:26:25,105 especially if there's any sort of questions about culture and 503 00:26:26,009 --> 00:26:27,773 how people are feeling about their place of work. 504 00:26:28,476 --> 00:26:29,838 Speaker 2: Totally, I love it, I love it. 505 00:26:29,838 --> 00:26:33,157 I'm going to take it one step further and say here's the deal 506 00:26:33,881 --> 00:26:36,691 HR professionals listening to this, or people leaders, or 507 00:26:36,711 --> 00:26:37,011 anybody. 508 00:26:37,011 --> 00:26:40,920 The reality is some of us aren't very good at this, 509 00:26:41,662 --> 00:26:45,832 neither are our teams, and so, like I actually think we have a 510 00:26:45,952 --> 00:26:50,217 mandate and a call to action as HR professionals to make sure 511 00:26:50,237 --> 00:26:52,338 that we broadcast that out to our teams so that they're not 512 00:26:52,358 --> 00:27:02,213 falling prey to the Dunning-Kruger effect or 513 00:27:02,335 --> 00:27:05,722 confirmation bias or whatever kind of psychological you know 514 00:27:06,351 --> 00:27:07,253 term you want to place on it. 515 00:27:07,253 --> 00:27:09,980 The reality is we should know this stuff, like we should be 516 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,438 the practitioners that understand human behavior better 517 00:27:13,438 --> 00:27:16,131 than anybody else in our company, and we should be the 518 00:27:16,310 --> 00:27:18,875 ones kind of like shouting from a rooftop like wait a minute, 519 00:27:18,895 --> 00:27:19,458 wait a minute, wait a minute. 520 00:27:19,458 --> 00:27:21,481 Don't outsmart your common sense. 521 00:27:21,481 --> 00:27:23,673 This is way more complicated than it needs to be. 522 00:27:23,713 --> 00:27:26,461 The reality is they just told us they feel like they should be 523 00:27:26,549 --> 00:27:30,538 paid more, and here's the market data they should probably be 524 00:27:30,598 --> 00:27:31,059 paid more. 525 00:27:31,059 --> 00:27:34,473 This isn't, you know, this isn't some grandiose strategic 526 00:27:34,534 --> 00:27:35,355 plan to go. 527 00:27:35,355 --> 00:27:38,260 You know, do whatever right. 528 00:27:38,260 --> 00:27:41,194 They're just literally like we should probably do this. 529 00:27:41,194 --> 00:27:43,349 And oh, by the way, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, like here's 530 00:27:43,369 --> 00:27:44,775 all the data that supports it, right? 531 00:27:44,775 --> 00:27:49,611 Or, yeah, the fact that this entire population hasn't 532 00:27:49,671 --> 00:27:51,215 increased their 401k contributions. 533 00:27:51,215 --> 00:27:53,281 Oh, by the way, I can go see 401k loan data. 534 00:27:53,281 --> 00:27:57,057 Oh, wow, we've got 25% of this specific group of people that 535 00:27:57,076 --> 00:27:58,721 are taking a 401k loan. 536 00:27:58,721 --> 00:28:00,332 That might be an issue. 537 00:28:00,332 --> 00:28:02,739 We should use that as a leading indicator that potentially 538 00:28:02,778 --> 00:28:05,490 there's some wage issues that we need to go take a look at right 539 00:28:05,490 --> 00:28:08,394 , like that's a really valuable proactive hr product. 540 00:28:11,838 --> 00:28:12,118 There's. 541 00:28:12,118 --> 00:28:15,886 There's all these sorts of things that we can do and we 542 00:28:15,926 --> 00:28:18,648 should do, but many of us, I think, are comfortable just 543 00:28:18,789 --> 00:28:26,464 saying, yeah, this is what it is , it's the way it is and that's 544 00:28:26,505 --> 00:28:26,664 what. 545 00:28:26,664 --> 00:28:27,205 So I want to. 546 00:28:27,205 --> 00:28:28,028 I want to talk about this. 547 00:28:28,028 --> 00:28:29,798 You mentioned this already. 548 00:28:29,798 --> 00:28:33,007 You mentioned being employee first. 549 00:28:33,007 --> 00:28:36,817 You know and, and, and you see this, you see all this stuff out 550 00:28:36,817 --> 00:28:36,998 there. 551 00:28:36,998 --> 00:28:38,542 Right, it was like HR should be . 552 00:28:38,542 --> 00:28:41,298 Hr is neutral, hr works for the company. 553 00:28:41,298 --> 00:28:43,205 Hr should be employee first. 554 00:28:43,205 --> 00:28:47,259 Walk me through your theory of employee first HR and what that 555 00:28:47,298 --> 00:28:50,567 means for you and why you believe that HR should be that. 556 00:28:52,375 --> 00:28:54,663 Speaker 1: If you pay attention to the research, you should know 557 00:28:54,663 --> 00:28:55,346 that that's true. 558 00:28:55,346 --> 00:29:00,042 When we talk about 70 plus percent of people being 559 00:29:00,083 --> 00:29:03,836 disengaged at work and the billions of dollars that's 560 00:29:03,896 --> 00:29:07,925 costing us and lost productivity , it only makes sense that 561 00:29:07,965 --> 00:29:11,219 building a system where employees are involved and 562 00:29:11,298 --> 00:29:16,347 considered has huge financial returns to the company, and so I 563 00:29:16,347 --> 00:29:19,820 think we've gotten in this place where we think that there 564 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,934 is some us versus them, but it's really us and them, and it 565 00:29:24,056 --> 00:29:25,017 always has been. 566 00:29:25,017 --> 00:29:30,768 Especially in a time when there's so much distrust of 567 00:29:30,827 --> 00:29:35,104 employees, of employees there's so much distrust of employers 568 00:29:35,223 --> 00:29:37,778 and whether or not employees are considered in the decisions 569 00:29:37,837 --> 00:29:38,400 being made. 570 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:42,436 The companies that are going to win out are the ones that can 571 00:29:42,517 --> 00:29:46,968 show that it is us together and lead from that place. 572 00:29:48,914 --> 00:29:50,498 Speaker 2: Absolutely so. 573 00:29:50,498 --> 00:29:57,487 I recoil, I get pissed when I hear this argument, because the 574 00:29:57,547 --> 00:29:59,830 answer to all these questions is yes. 575 00:29:59,830 --> 00:30:02,318 The answer is yes. 576 00:30:02,318 --> 00:30:04,645 I am here for the employee. 577 00:30:04,645 --> 00:30:05,738 The answer is yes. 578 00:30:05,738 --> 00:30:06,883 I am here for the company. 579 00:30:06,883 --> 00:30:08,057 The answer is yes. 580 00:30:08,057 --> 00:30:08,961 I'm here to be neutral. 581 00:30:08,961 --> 00:30:11,221 It's situational, right. 582 00:30:11,221 --> 00:30:16,506 Like people are messy, you can't say I'm totally polarized. 583 00:30:16,506 --> 00:30:18,154 I, I'm totally polarized over here. 584 00:30:18,154 --> 00:30:19,198 I'm totally polarized over here . 585 00:30:19,198 --> 00:30:23,508 My thesis, my theory, is that if you are making decisions in 586 00:30:23,535 --> 00:30:28,191 the context of what's right for my employees success, happiness, 587 00:30:28,191 --> 00:30:34,065 engagement, motivation that will unequivocally always ripple 588 00:30:34,065 --> 00:30:35,788 positively for the organization . 589 00:30:35,788 --> 00:30:40,565 But the reality of the job is sometimes you have to make tough 590 00:30:40,565 --> 00:30:44,579 decisions, right, but again, you still have to make it in the 591 00:30:44,579 --> 00:30:47,326 context of what's the best thing for the people in my 592 00:30:47,386 --> 00:30:47,708 company. 593 00:30:47,708 --> 00:30:50,279 If you're making decisions based on any different context, 594 00:30:50,701 --> 00:30:52,904 you're the wrong freaking job in my opinion. 595 00:30:52,904 --> 00:30:54,307 But that's just me. 596 00:30:54,307 --> 00:30:54,749 What do I know? 597 00:30:57,259 --> 00:30:58,623 Speaker 1: No, I couldn't agree more. 598 00:30:58,623 --> 00:31:01,347 It's like hearing about mass layoff situations where people 599 00:31:01,367 --> 00:31:04,347 are finding out from a zoom call or they don't even get that 600 00:31:04,428 --> 00:31:06,676 because their computer just gets locked up and that's how 601 00:31:06,696 --> 00:31:07,499 they're finding out. 602 00:31:07,499 --> 00:31:11,535 You know, maybe some of those people are really happy to be 603 00:31:11,575 --> 00:31:14,962 done with your bs and that's great, but at least leave them 604 00:31:15,022 --> 00:31:17,208 feeling like you cared, that they were there in the first 605 00:31:17,248 --> 00:31:17,468 place. 606 00:31:17,468 --> 00:31:20,805 And it's not that hard to show that it's a tough decision. 607 00:31:20,805 --> 00:31:27,625 I think the default in trying to have that strong face or be 608 00:31:27,686 --> 00:31:29,797 that pillar when it's tough for you. 609 00:31:29,797 --> 00:31:33,744 I think sometimes we get in our head a little bit too much 610 00:31:33,805 --> 00:31:35,087 about what that looks like. 611 00:31:35,087 --> 00:31:41,230 And you can still be concise, thoughtful, and how would I like 612 00:31:41,230 --> 00:31:45,160 this to be handled if I were in that seat instead, if you're 613 00:31:45,180 --> 00:31:48,827 looking at it from that lens, you can still do the right thing 614 00:31:48,827 --> 00:31:50,417 , even when it's a hard thing to do. 615 00:31:51,239 --> 00:31:53,663 Speaker 2: Right, right, I totally agree. 616 00:31:53,663 --> 00:31:58,675 I couldn't agree more and I think that, um, I think that 617 00:31:58,696 --> 00:32:00,962 this is a really great place to kind of leave it with people 618 00:32:01,002 --> 00:32:04,321 right, it's, it's, it's goes back to. 619 00:32:04,321 --> 00:32:07,492 In my opinion, it goes back to that like being authentic to 620 00:32:07,553 --> 00:32:07,934 yourself. 621 00:32:07,934 --> 00:32:11,402 You know, what do you believe to be true in your core? 622 00:32:11,402 --> 00:32:13,487 What is the data support? 623 00:32:13,487 --> 00:32:15,509 Have we eliminated all the biases? 624 00:32:15,509 --> 00:32:17,338 Are we making the right decisions for people? 625 00:32:17,338 --> 00:32:19,865 And then, at the end of the day , how are we actually treating 626 00:32:19,905 --> 00:32:20,146 people? 627 00:32:21,336 --> 00:32:24,009 And and you know, I tell people this all the time they ask, like 628 00:32:24,009 --> 00:32:26,077 , I tell, first of all, I tell them what my job is and they say 629 00:32:26,077 --> 00:32:27,803 , oh, my god, I wouldn't want to ever do that job. 630 00:32:27,803 --> 00:32:28,526 That sounds horrible. 631 00:32:28,526 --> 00:32:30,980 But I tell people everything I learned in my job I learned in 632 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:31,241 kindergarten. 633 00:32:31,241 --> 00:32:32,666 Right, just because something's simple doesn't mean it's easy, 634 00:32:32,686 --> 00:32:34,251 um, and so you know, going back to everything I learned in my 635 00:32:34,291 --> 00:32:36,278 job, I learned in kindergarten, right, just because something's 636 00:32:36,339 --> 00:32:37,403 simple doesn't mean it's easy. 637 00:32:37,403 --> 00:32:41,221 And so you know, going back to the golden rule, going back to 638 00:32:41,281 --> 00:32:44,461 people first, like you know, be kind. 639 00:32:44,461 --> 00:32:48,430 All these things, in my opinion , are what we need to be for our 640 00:32:48,430 --> 00:32:48,834 organization. 641 00:32:48,834 --> 00:32:53,113 So thank you for supporting that work, and I can't wait to 642 00:32:53,153 --> 00:32:55,863 see what wiggle work turns into. 643 00:32:55,863 --> 00:32:57,396 We're all going to say, yeah, we knew Callie. 644 00:32:57,396 --> 00:32:59,481 We knew Callie when she was just starting this thing. 645 00:32:59,481 --> 00:33:02,859 With that being said, I appreciate that. 646 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,731 Speaker 1: I'm so grateful that there are people like you at the 647 00:33:05,731 --> 00:33:09,358 top of companies, showing what it can look like. 648 00:33:09,358 --> 00:33:13,785 I think there's a reason why we're seeing a lot of people 649 00:33:14,065 --> 00:33:18,935 heading up HR in big companies coming out of other areas and I 650 00:33:19,057 --> 00:33:21,623 know that people get really mad about that the head of sales or 651 00:33:21,643 --> 00:33:31,943 the head of marketing that's doing it and it's because they 652 00:33:32,304 --> 00:33:37,269 figured out something that a message of one hope that HR 653 00:33:37,328 --> 00:33:42,679 doesn't have to be this awful doom and gloom, you know, throw 654 00:33:42,719 --> 00:33:46,664 down the hammer sort of department, but also that people 655 00:33:46,664 --> 00:33:49,869 can rise to the top by having a people first mentality. 656 00:33:50,615 --> 00:33:54,778 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know we're in, we're in the holiday 657 00:33:54,798 --> 00:33:58,720 season, so for those of you that celebrate, you know, be a true 658 00:33:58,740 --> 00:34:00,540 believer, like we do exist. 659 00:34:00,540 --> 00:34:04,304 I did come out of IT and operations, though, so I can't 660 00:34:04,344 --> 00:34:06,585 like I'm in that camp, although I've been in HR for almost 20 661 00:34:06,605 --> 00:34:06,986 years now. 662 00:34:06,986 --> 00:34:10,367 So it's, you know, it's, it's, I think I'm officially an HR 663 00:34:10,387 --> 00:34:10,807 professional. 664 00:34:10,807 --> 00:34:14,449 But yeah, we can, we can make change. 665 00:34:14,449 --> 00:34:19,516 So with that, callie, this is a great segue to our Rebel HR 666 00:34:19,536 --> 00:34:19,978 Flashroom. 667 00:34:19,978 --> 00:34:22,244 So I'm fascinated to hear your responses. 668 00:34:22,244 --> 00:34:24,677 Question number one where do we need to rebel? 669 00:34:26,362 --> 00:34:26,902 Speaker 1: Everywhere. 670 00:34:26,902 --> 00:34:31,434 If you're not rebelling or thinking about where change 671 00:34:31,474 --> 00:34:34,019 needs to happen, it probably means you're a little too 672 00:34:34,059 --> 00:34:34,460 comfortable. 673 00:34:37,646 --> 00:34:38,047 Speaker 2: I love it. 674 00:34:38,047 --> 00:34:43,061 I love it Be comfortable with discomfort, because the minute 675 00:34:43,081 --> 00:34:45,701 you rest on your laurel, something's going to go sideways 676 00:34:45,701 --> 00:34:45,701 . 677 00:34:45,701 --> 00:34:49,322 Question number two who should we be listening to? 678 00:34:50,539 --> 00:34:55,159 Speaker 1: So I'm going to go a little bit off and say there's 679 00:34:55,318 --> 00:34:58,985 lots and lots of amazing people in HR and direct HR, supporting 680 00:35:00,047 --> 00:35:03,137 places that I could mention, but I'm going to mention the Brainy 681 00:35:03,137 --> 00:35:06,286 Business because maybe that's a place that your people haven't 682 00:35:06,346 --> 00:35:10,880 already found, but the intersection between economics 683 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:15,208 and psychology is a really, really important place for HR 684 00:35:15,228 --> 00:35:18,900 people to be right now and she does a really, really great job 685 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:23,818 introducing introducing HR people, I think, to some pretty 686 00:35:23,858 --> 00:35:26,445 cool concepts that can change the way we think about people 687 00:35:26,465 --> 00:35:27,027 operations. 688 00:35:27,735 --> 00:35:31,123 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I totally agree, and I think I think one 689 00:35:31,163 --> 00:35:34,016 of the most profound things you can do as HR professional is 690 00:35:34,056 --> 00:35:39,025 expand your aperture to other disciplines, because it all ties 691 00:35:39,025 --> 00:35:40,630 together back to human behavior . 692 00:35:40,630 --> 00:35:42,481 So like economics is a great example. 693 00:35:42,481 --> 00:35:42,742 I agree. 694 00:35:42,742 --> 00:35:46,184 I find like behavioral economics absolutely fascinating 695 00:35:46,184 --> 00:35:51,806 and I find that that informs a lot of the work I do as an HR 696 00:35:51,827 --> 00:35:52,288 professional. 697 00:35:52,288 --> 00:35:55,922 So final question how can our listeners connect with you, 698 00:35:56,434 --> 00:35:59,702 learn more and find out about Wigglework? 699 00:35:59,742 --> 00:36:02,228 Speaker 1: Yeah, I spend too much time on LinkedIn, so that's 700 00:36:02,228 --> 00:36:03,518 an easy place to find me. 701 00:36:03,518 --> 00:36:07,005 I have not officially announced Wigglework. 702 00:36:07,005 --> 00:36:09,699 I want my website to be pretty, so you know I talk about not 703 00:36:09,739 --> 00:36:13,115 waiting to get started, but I need to have something, and so I 704 00:36:13,115 --> 00:36:14,978 will have an official announcement linking to my 705 00:36:14,998 --> 00:36:17,965 website all of that kind of stuff very, very, very soon. 706 00:36:17,965 --> 00:36:21,737 But LinkedIn is the best place to find me and probably will 707 00:36:21,757 --> 00:36:23,141 continue to be that for a while. 708 00:36:24,043 --> 00:36:24,505 Speaker 2: Absolutely. 709 00:36:24,505 --> 00:36:26,097 We'll have a link to that in the show notes. 710 00:36:26,097 --> 00:36:28,442 Hop on in check it out. 711 00:36:28,442 --> 00:36:29,563 Follow Callie's work. 712 00:36:29,563 --> 00:36:34,802 I know that the videos from Disrupt Minneapolis are coming 713 00:36:34,862 --> 00:36:37,960 out here in the near future, so keep an eye open for that. 714 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:40,862 Thank you so much for spending a few minutes with us here, 715 00:36:40,983 --> 00:36:43,681 Callie, and thank you for helping drive change in the 716 00:36:43,721 --> 00:36:44,664 world of HR. 717 00:36:45,346 --> 00:36:45,806 Speaker 1: Thank you. 718 00:36:45,806 --> 00:36:50,061 I'm so grateful for the chance to talk with you and know that 719 00:36:50,101 --> 00:36:51,244 there's more of us out there. 720 00:36:52,105 --> 00:36:56,639 Speaker 2: Power Thanks, all right, that does it for the 721 00:36:56,739 --> 00:36:58,045 Rebel HR podcast. 722 00:36:58,045 --> 00:37:00,021 Big thank you to our guests. 723 00:37:00,021 --> 00:37:05,382 Follow us on Facebook at Rebel HR podcast, twitter at Rebel HR 724 00:37:05,422 --> 00:37:08,804 guy, or see our website at rebelhumanresourcescom. 725 00:37:08,804 --> 00:37:12,530 The views and opinions expressed by Rebel HR podcast 726 00:37:12,550 --> 00:37:14,717 are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the 727 00:37:14,739 --> 00:37:18,646 official policy or position of any of the organizations that we 728 00:37:18,646 --> 00:37:19,027 represent. 729 00:37:19,027 --> 00:37:22,583 No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast. 730 00:37:22,583 --> 00:37:24,871 Baby.