Speaker 2: This is the Rebel HR Podcast, the podcast about all
things innovation in the people's space.
I'm Kyle Rode.
Let's start the show.
Welcome back HR community.
Thrilled to have this conversation today With us.
We have Christy Smith.
Christy is the founder of the Humanity Studio, a leadership
advisory firm, and author of the book that is coming out in the
very, very near future Embrace the Power of Human-Powered
Leadership with her book Essential how Distributed Teams,
generative AI and Global Shifts Are Creating a New
Human-Powered Leadership.
Christy wrote that book with Kelly Monaghan, phd.
Christy, thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2: Well, extremely excited to have you.
As we were kind of doing the pre-meeting before I hit record,
I was telling you that this book just hits so many of these
topics that I think are so incredibly critical for so many
of us in the HR community, and I'm really excited for the book
to come out.
I'm curious.
My first question for you is what motivated you to write a
book on these topics?
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, many, many years of really having the
privilege to serve clients in the C-suite you know, minus two,
three in organizations and your colleagues in HR and really
seeing the shift, especially now and since the pandemic of
what's required of leaders and what the relationship with
employees are, employees' relationship with organizations
and how those drastically have shifted and the expectations
have shifted.
So I was excited to dig in and look at those shifts and
hopefully provide some answers.
Speaker 2: Well, I am waiting these answers as well because I
got a lot of questions.
Speaker 1: I bet yeah.
Speaker 2: I got.
Yeah, I mean, there's so much here, right, and I think you
know there's a lot of conversation around this stuff,
but it's a really, really big question and I think COVID
accelerated this, right, but but this was always kind of where
we were marching towards anyways as a society, you know, as as
virtual work became more more relevant, generative AI has, you
know, I mean that's been around for a long time.
Now it's actually to a point where we're seeing it more
incorporated in the workplace, you know, and the globalization
and distribution of employees, you know, is kind of a natural
evolution of our economy.
So, you know, these are all very logical shifts, but we
don't necessarily have the tools to deal with them yet.
Or, certainly, as we look at, like, our leadership development
programs, they're still kind of targeted towards in-person
leaders and you know, it's kind of like a lot of this leadership
stuff is basically the same stuff that's been around since
the 50s, 60s and 70s.
So I'm curious, as you think about this, this challenge, what
are, what are some of these areas where you feel like we
need to, we need to broadly focus on adjusting the way that
we lead?
Speaker 1: Well, I think I think first is a is a mindset shift,
right, I think that you know, as you say, some of the shifts
that are occurring may be logical, right, but the fact
that they're happening in such a compressed way and it's such
volume, right, I think, adds a layer of complexity both for
leaders and employees to kind of digest this, right.
So we're not just talking about the, the direct impacts on an
organization's ability to grow or to globalize, or to develop
product or to embrace technology .
We're talking about we're living in a polarized society
around the globe.
We are dealing with wars on multiple fronts.
We're dealing with people who are trying to take care of their
children and their elders right , and there are not in many
countries, this included those services that allow us to do
this and go work right in an affordable way.
And so you know, we can't just look at what are the
organizational impacts.
This is really a socioeconomic and political world that we live
in that are impacting employees as they cross the threshold of
work.
So I think that leaders are very , very, very in tuned to this,
to this, right.
If you look at what leaders came out of Davos last year
talking about, it was the global unrest this year.
They're talking about a lot about the global unrest and
culture and, as you say, how do we motivate, keep a workforce
and engage a workforce where trust and engagement scores are
the lowest that they've ever been, right?
So this all demands a different kind of leader, not one that
just has a fiduciary responsibility of run a P&L, but
one that is A a global citizen now P&L, but one that is A a
global citizen now and B needs to care for their employees in a
fundamentally different way and engage their employees in a
different way, absolutely.
Speaker 2: I think it's fascinating to me the broad
impact on engagement scores here over the last few years where
you know we actually everybody assumed that they would go on
the in the basement right when, you know, the pandemic hit and
they actually went up a little bit but then ever since then
they've just, they've just it's been a downward spiral like a
flywheel of doom, and especially globally, when you step outside
of the US they're lower right.
The engagement index scores continue to kind of sink.
What do you attribute that to in your research?
Speaker 1: Well, I think that there are a couple of things,
but let's talk about that in context that low employee
engagement scores and productivity scores are costing
us $8.8 trillion a year.
Now, that's equivalent to Microsoft, amazon and Apple
together.
Think about that.
The strain on our economy as a result of those low engagement
scores and lost productivity is really significant.
I attribute it to your question to a couple of things.
One is we're asking employees to learn technologies and to
change processes and structures without any help right.
Our learning and development, investment and learning
development has gone down.
Secondly, we are not our insides aren't matching our
outsides.
When we were writing the book, we were looking at not only the
realities of technology and AI and you know the change and
shift in leadership.
We wanted to answer the question of you know what do employees
require of their leaders, and they were very clear on four
things Purpose, make sure your insides match your outsides.
Live up to your values, live up to the purpose statements that
you are talking about.
The second is agency, and this is to the point that we were
talking before we went online.
Is you know this notion of distributed work, working when,
where and how I want, and you know making sure that my work
fits into my life right Agency and defining myself in the way
that I want to define myself, not being defined by a category
created by the organization.
Wellness is the third area that the expectation of employees
have of their employees.
Employers are to make sure that their employers provide them
with wellness, not only in mental health or health
preventative health but also financial health benefits, those
kinds of things.
And then, lastly, connection create areas and opportunities
for employees to connect.
Speaker 2: Absolutely so.
I want to dig into kind of each one of these, but before I do
I'm curious.
You know, I've heard this a lot , especially over the last few
years, and a lot of times it's from employees who are maybe
more tenured or used to doing things a certain way.
It's like it's like this, this the speed of change continues to
to accelerate, and I think there's a, there's a lot of at
least in my organization.
We see a lot of organizational stress because of that.
It's like, oh my gosh, when are we going to catch up?
You know, when are we going to catch up to this change?
When are we going to get to catch our breath?
But broadly, I hear that, you know, I kind of hear that in
society too, right, it's like, if you like, there's just
there's so much, and so would you attribute that feeling to
really a lack of adhering to these four things and supporting
employees along the way, as because the rate of change is
accelerating, right, I mean, it's just naturally going to
with some of these societal and technological changes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, without a doubt .
You know, I think that there are a couple of things.
Yes, I would say that these four areas that we examine in
the book are completely related to the ability for employees and
leaders themselves to be resilient right through the
process of change.
So that's one.
Two is change is constant.
You know, I'm just that old that I remember, you know, early
in my career as a consultant, where we were doing change
management programs for organizations and, frankly,
consultancies are still doing that today.
What we have not done is build the muscle for change within the
design of work.
Work should be dynamic.
You know we have talked about things like agility, but we
haven't prepared employees for what should be dynamic.
You know we have talked about things like agility, but we
haven't prepared employees for what should be constant.
Change right and plan for that, not only in processes but also
in terms of time.
When you are going through a change, it requires your leader
and your team to spend more time together.
What we see in organizations today is we're going to go
through this transformation and saddle up and just do it Rather
than building the vision for it, what they can expect of it, how
their work will change, how they're going to be developed
with regards to their own skills and capabilities and how.
You know.
What does the outcome look like for you, your team and everyone
else, and that, I think, is what is lacking.
It's not that change is, you know, hard, it's just we don't
know how to talk about it and plan for it in organizations.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I totally agree and I think you know I like the
phrase that change is the only constant right Because it's, you
know, that's just the world we live in and so often, once you
get through a, a change, a lot of times the people that were
really resistant look back and go oh, that wasn't so bad.
You know, it's almost like the fear of change was was worse
than the actual execution of said change event.
Right, um and but.
But I do find that the differentiator so many times of
a good experience versus a bad experience comes down to a great
leader.
Speaker 1: Without a doubt.
Speaker 2: So it you know that's , and so I do think, like, in
kind of the point of of this book here is, you know it's,
it's giving a roadmap for for leaders to understand how to,
how to lead people through this.
So I want for leaders to understand how to how to lead
people, uh, through this.
So I want, I want to circle around.
I love the uh, the term that you used, uh, when you were
talking about purpose, and that is the insides match the
outsides.
Can you unpack that phrase for us?
Um?
just cause I, I love that that uh kind of visual.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think that let me give an example of
you know how I've seen this play out in many organizations.
Many organizations, as you well know, will have great diversity
, equity and inclusion statements, right, and that they
value this more than anything else.
Statements, and that they value this more than anything else.
Yet when you look at the amount of individuals who are sitting
in the C-suite minus two or three they are very homogeneous
and the constant argument is that, well, it's a pipeline
issue.
You know, I absolutely categorically think that's a BS
statement, and so I think that that's an easy example, right?
You know, you say that you value this, you say that you
want this, and yet for 40 years, we've not seen much progress in
terms of marginalized communities reaching the C-suite
.
That's one example.
Another example is you know, we want to live our ESG values and
yet our carbon footprint and nothing that we do related to
that our packaging, our relationship to how we get
things to our clients, those kinds of things are not lived up
to.
We have, you know, great statements from CEOs about this.
Is, you know, a caring family.
We think of our employees as family.
That's perhaps the most damaging phrase I think can come
out of a senior leader's mouth Now.
I's perhaps the most um damaging phrase I I uh think can
come out of a senior leader's mouth Now.
I think that the intentions are really good, but there is
absolutely that is not felt um throughout an organization.
Um, and we treat each other pretty poorly, um, things like
oh, you know the bad guys, managers who are verbally
abusive or abusive in any way, if they're top performers, they
say in their role.
Yet companies say, yeah, we don't tolerate that behavior.
So it's these little things, both on a macro and micro level,
that organizations really have to have the courage to live to
their values.
Now our younger generations are exposing this right, left and
center in their organizations.
You just go on Fishbowl or any other kind of platform and you
can see how culture is eroded or that the insides don't match
the outsides.
Speaker 2: Totally, yeah, I think, yes, I love ESG from the
standpoint that it's elevated, the conversation right, and now
we have a terminology for it.
But I think there's so much BS in ESG, right, and I would say
same comment in DEI or any of these acronyms and I think, yeah
, I totally agree.
So much of this is about being authentic with know, being
authentic with with saying you know, doing what you say you're
going to do, standing up for these values.
And I totally side note, I didn't, I didn't understand the
like, how toxic the statement that we are like a family was
until I, you know, I I had I don't know a little bit of a,
you know, an eye opening moment where, you know, somebody was
like, do you know how dysfunctional my family was?
Yeah, like, that's exactly how this is.
So, yeah, you're right, it's like and this, you know, this
was a long time ago and I was like, oh, yeah, maybe we
shouldn't call it a family because we actually that's not
necessarily a positive connotation and it's not
actually accurate, right, we're pursuing a common goal.
You know, we're pursuing common interests, we want to help and
support each other, but we are not a family unit.
Right, we can fire people.
You know, this is different.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and again, I think that you know this there's
there is very little malice when leaders want to talk about
these kinds of things and that they, they truly believe it, but
they're in very privileged positions, right, right.
And so I think that we just have to acknowledge that if we,
as a company, are really going to set forth purpose, then that
means purpose stays alive, because you're talking about the
connections of purpose to work and customers and patients and
all of that all of the time, right?
But leaders are pressured around short term outcomes
rather than that ethos of a long-term purpose and values.
Now, they're not at odds with one another, of course, but
because of those short-term metrics and goals that a leader
has to create in order to show value to the street, you know it
is, it is purposes lost, yeah.
Speaker 2: Right, it's only, it's only as important.
It's only as important as how important you make the
measurements Correct, right?
Or how important that is to the stakeholders?
Yeah, like the people that, really.
I mean, that's the reality of a for-profit enterprise, correct?
You know what are the dollars and cents associated.
If it's small, while we might care, it's not going to rise to
the level of importance of profitability.
Speaker 1: Period end of story right, Unless you're losing the
right people.
Unless you're losing the right people.
Speaker 2: Right, right, okay, I love that, so, okay.
So I want to maybe jump into a little bit of a tangent, because
I feel like I can't go podcast without talking about this.
So, speaking of BS, how much of the noise around generative AI
is real, like, like, like, what?
What should we be preparing ourselves and our leaders for as
it relates to this AI?
Because I feel like there's so many headlines but when you
really unpack it it's not as transformative as everybody
thinks it's going to be, as it relates to kind of the humanity
within the workplace.
So what's your perspective on AI and how that kind of
interplays with all of these leadership?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the advances in technology and AI
would certainly fall into this.
So, whether you're talking about AI or automation, you know
, and data that we get from it all goodness right, I think that
they can be very powerful tools for good right, powerful tools
for good right, but there is such a lack of understanding of
how, when, where to use these in the context of not only a
company, but in the context of someone's job, their
relationship to another area of the company, or their
relationship to the end user, customer or ecosystem partners.
Right, and what what we've done .
You know we love heroes, whether those are hero CEOs that
we put on a pedestal or hero technologies that we put on a
pedestal Right.
We love that Right that we put on a pedestal.
Right, we love that right.
However, what we don't do is be curious enough to say how is
this really going to work?
Not only for me as a boomer who really has a hard time
integrating new technology, right?
Or as me relating to a Gen Z who's in my organization, who's
using this all the time and, frankly, getting fabulous ideas,
but there's so many're going to use AI.
Here's the context and outcomes we're looking for for AI.
Here's how it's going to impact your job.
Here's how we're going to train you around this.
And oh, by the way, what we need from you is not only using the
tool in the right way, but also being smart enough and
analytical enough to say what answer I get.
Question that Is that you know those analytical skills and
critical thinking around the tool and to understand the
outcome in the context of the impact to you know, whatever
product we're developing or whatever customer interaction
we're having, those are the things that we have not done.
Therefore, I think that you're talking about the noise of
generative AI and all that it's talking about.
Well, people are talking about it because nobody can define
what does it actually mean, not only to the company, but for the
team and for me as an employee?
And oh, by the way, train me.
Speaker 2: Right, right, which we've already touched on.
That I love.
I love the uh, I love tying it down back to like the hero, like
like thinking of AI as this hero, almost on this like hero's
journey, right, but the reality is like like it is.
It's it's really really undefined.
It's a really really broad topic.
I think my favorite prompt in chat, gpt, is what was your
source for this information?
And it's like yeah, you know, cat, fancycom, right.
Speaker 1: You know, like like you gotta you gotta like.
Speaker 2: It's no different than like Googling something and
then hoping that you get a you know, a decent, you know valid
response, but you still like.
The ability to like, question the data and the outcome and use
your own kind of you know analytical capabilities is even
more critical now than it ever has.
Speaker 1: You know, I think that if you look at the impact
of this technology and most technologies that you know are
entering into the workforce today, they're not working
because people are not being given the time.
In fact, you know there was a study in the New York Times
talked about this that actually AI is more.
People are rejecting it within their organizations because the
fact is that they can't.
You know, they don't have time to use it.
Speaker 2: Interesting.
Speaker 1: They don't understand how to use it within the
context of their job.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's really, you know, it's, it's
fascinating because, you know, I , I hear that and that makes
sense to me and, and you know, just in my own anecdotal
experience, you know there's, you know everybody's in such a
rush and it's, you know, yeah, well, let's say, I've got this
AI tool and I'm supposed to test this out, but you know, I got,
I got this, this and this I got to get done.
I'm just not going to have time , Forget it, I'll just do it
myself.
Speaker 1: Or I'll go ask the guy that I always ask.
Speaker 2: Right, right, because it's easier or I just know how
to do it, but the reality is this could be an enabler, right,
as we talk about the rate of change and some of these
challenges, I will tell you as a global HR professional AI has
an extremely exciting use case for translation, language and
communication.
Um, you know, I use it to recap almost every single meeting
that I do now, and it's pretty darn good at it, right, but?
But I don't use it.
I don't use it to make really thoughtful strategic decisions.
Right, I use it to recap things and then and then prompt, you
know, other dialogue and you can use it for translation
capability, but it can, like this can, really make you know,
the employee experience significantly better if we take
the time to figure out how it works.
Speaker 1: Well, and if you take the time to train people, I
mean, your schedule probably looks like mine, which I've
changed dramatically that you know I am on the West Coast, so
I have the curse of the West Coast.
You know it's 6 am to.
You know 6 pm, meeting after meeting, after meeting after
meeting there's no, and then after 6 pm, getting the work
done right and summing up things .
That's not sustainable.
I don't live that way anymore, but it is not sustainable.
And the reality is, if we are going to use tools like AI or
other analytical and insight tools or automation
manufacturing, whatever it is, we need to take the time to
teach people and to give them opportunities to practice it,
and we're just not doing that in the name of productivity, which
is why engagement is so low and why you know we're spending
$322 billion a year on mental health issues.
I mean, that is the new pandemic.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
So let's, let's talk about that a little bit and I you know,
and you talked about you know, you talked about purpose, agency
, wellness and connection, and I think, I think my, my thought
would be that this wellness and connection piece are so
incredibly intertwined.
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 2: And I will like like my own personal experience.
So I was essentially stuck at home for a year.
In that time we transitioned from a largely in-person
workplace into almost exclusively virtual as it
related to meetings and offices.
But I was just personally lonely.
I'm an extrovert, right, there's a reason I'm in human
resources.
I actually like people believe it or not, to anybody that's
listening to this but you know it's like lonely and tedious to
just be sitting at home and there's no break or disconnect
between that little desk that you sit at and talk on a laptop
on, versus the you know, driving to an office that can actually
missed a commute, believe it or not.
Um, and, and so you know, I'm curious what?
What advice do you have for us that work in these organizations
that that have have this as a component of their workplace and
will continue to have it for the you know foreseeable future?
How can we help support mental health, support that
connectedness and, you know, kind of give people what they're
asking for in their employment experience?
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean, I think that the basics have to
be there, right?
So if you think of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, the
organization has to provide services that people have access
to and that are paid for to get mental health services right.
So I think that that's changed a lot, and you've seen
technology really impact that capability Companies like
BetterUp, for instance, being able to provide that kind of
access is really quite remarkable.
I think the other thing is is we have to start thinking about
what are the systemic issues that are impacting mental health
at work, whether in a distributed way or not.
Those systemic issues and the return to office kind of
mandates impact women and people of color more significantly
than straight white men.
Because of child care issues, right, or elder care issues.
We don't have, you know, access .
A lot of our companies don't have access for child care
stipends or elder care stipends.
So that is a huge impact In terms of, you know, the ability
for individuals to find meaning and connection at work.
It really goes back to what we've been talking about even
before the pandemic that we still haven't executed well on,
and that is how do we design work differently, right?
How do we fundamentally design work differently so that people
can have much more flexibility and predictability in their days
for either coming into work or not coming into work.
Who are they?
You know?
Are we taking a project-based model where people can work on
their work in teams, whether it's in this format or not?
So we just haven't.
We've had a failure of imagination and execution when
it comes to how we design work.
Speaker 2: I think that's a power, really powerful point.
A power, really powerful point, um, you know, and I, and I
think it's it's, it's interesting because, yeah, this,
this isn't, this isn't new.
You know, people have been asking for flexibility in the
workplace for for years.
Um, I continue to see more and more and more what I like the
outside trickling in.
Right, there used to be such a like, such an attitude,
certainly when I first started in my career, that you leave
home, at home, and you know, you , you, you shut that door when
you come into work and you go back home and you leave, you
leave them both separate, right, but the reality is now,
everything's integrated, right, there's no, you, you're not
leaving it at home, um, you're bringing it with you.
And, and the reality is, human beings don't operate like that.
You can't compartmentalize your entire existence and hope to
not have some sort of a mental break.
I mean, it's just not how it worked.
And so I think we've, we're realizing as a society this
isn't working, um, but to your point, we, we have, we have an
opportunity now to be creative, to think a little differently
and redesign this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we have generations in the workforce who
are in polar opposite thinking around this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1: And who have different skills to navigate it.
Speaker 2: That's fascinating.
I mean, you know, there's like this great sucking sound to get
everybody back in the office now , you know, and it, and it's
like, well, it's so I and it, you know, I'll tell a true story
.
So, you know, we had a similar, similar phenomenon in my
organization and we brought a bunch of people back.
And you know it was a, it was a broad initiative and you know,
our thought is, well, it's really going to drive engagement
.
Let's get people back collaborating more and
collaborating more.
And somebody came to my office after we started and said, you
know, I'm just sitting on virtual teams meetings in a
cubicle with, like, nobody else around me, right, like I'm
literally doing exactly what I'm like, yeah, maybe we can think
a little differently about this, right?
So if you're in the office, collaborate, like there should
be like an intentional collaborative opportunity, and
that makes sense to have people in person for some of these
things.
But where it's not required, then why are you requiring it?
Right, and I, I, my argument is I think it's more about that
flexibility piece.
People don't necessarily care about being in the office, but
they want that flexibility in that, that, uh, that agency, as
you put it to.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
And for those who are not in the office, yeah, those who are
not in the office, let's be creative and look at the zip
codes of where our employees are working remotely and, you know,
rent out a table at, or reserve a table at, starbucks for
everybody to go work there.
Speaker 2: Right, right I mean there's a lot of ways to do this
.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of ways to do this.
I know that sounds simple, but gosh, you know that does not
take.
You know that doesn't take a lot.
Speaker 2: Right, right, totally , totally agree, so much.
So my argument on that is like and so I I'm a little bit in the
middle on this Like I, I love being in person.
Personally, I also appreciate that some people don't.
But there's also like, I think that you just have to be very,
very intentional about it, right , like, if you have an
intentional collaborative opportunity and you need to be
in person, great, go figure it out.
But where you don't need to, there's a ton of there's like
technology enabled tools where you can collaborate really,
really heavily asynchronously, yeah, and probably do, probably
have people perform better, because maybe someone has their
best ideas at two in the morning and somebody does at 10 in the
morning.
Right, you know, there's all these.
Now you're, now you're actually playing to somebody's.
You know own individual um, you know capabilities.
That is 100, yeah, I capabilities.
Speaker 1: That is a hundred percent.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm totally, I'm totally with you.
Well, I told you before we hit record that we would just start
getting into the heart of the conversation and not want it to
end.
But unfortunately, here we are.
So we're going to awkwardly and unfortunately shift into the
Rebel HR flash round.
So, all right, question number one where do we need to rebel?
Speaker 1: Designing new models for leadership.
Speaker 2: I couldn't agree more , and I think you know I love
that you have kind of put a roadmap together in this book,
and I think it's just so incredibly correct that this is
what employees are asking for.
This is what they've been asking for for a while, but at a
certain point this is just going to become a mandate.
This has to be the new model, because the employers and
leaders that don't adopt this approach are just not going to
be able to keep people.
I mean, that's just the reality of it.
Speaker 1: So yeah, we believe that, obviously believe that
very strongly in the emotional leader and leader Yep.
Speaker 2: Couldn't, couldn't agree more.
Question number two who should we be listening to?
Speaker 1: we be listening to Yourself.
I think we need more time for people to be in reflection and
really discernment, not only around what they want for their
own lives, but their own desires for their purpose in the work
that they do and how they build that connection for themselves,
not wait for someone to build it for them.
Speaker 2: I love that, I love that response and in this, you
know, especially in this, in this world there's there's a lot
of external noise and external factors and influences and I
think the people that can get reflective and quiet.
You know that's necessary for a number of reasons.
All right, last question how can our listeners connect with
you and how can they get their hands on the book?
Speaker 1: Yeah, they can go to our website, smith-monaghancom,
and that's where you'll find information on the book.
You will also find links to the Humanity Studio.
You can also go straight to thehumanitystudiocom and you
will find more about us and the book.
Speaker 2: I love it.
The book, one more time, is Essential, and the subtitle is
how Distributed Teams, generative AI and Global Shifts
are Creating a New Human-Powered Leadership.
We will have a link to that in the show notes.
Open up your podcast player, click in and get your hands on
the book.
Christy, just an absolutely wonderful conversation.
Thank you for putting in the time and energy to put this
content out there and appreciate your work.
Speaker 1: Thank you, kyle, really had a great time.
Thank you.
Speaker 2: All right, that does it for the Rebel HR podcast.
Big thank you to our guests.
Follow us on Facebook at Rebel HR podcast, Twitter at RebelGuy,
or see our website at RebelHumanResourcescom.
The views and opinions expressed by RebelHR Podcast are
those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the
official policy or position of any of the organizations that we
represent.
No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast.
Baby.