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Speaker 1: This is the Rebel HR
Podcast.

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If you're a professional
looking for innovative,

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thought-provoking information in
the world of human resources,

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this is the right podcast for
you.

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Rebel on HR Rebels.

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Super excited for our guests.

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This week.

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We've got a couple of wonderful
guests.

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I have been tearing through
their new book.

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It's called Unfair Transform
your Organization to Create

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Breakthrough Performance and
crossed off or employee

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well-being.

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With us today we've got Mark
Manoukas and Gaurav Bhatnagar

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and we are also joined by Molly
Berdess, so super excited for

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the conversation today.

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Mark and Gaurav are the
co-founders of Co-Creation

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Partners.

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Gaurav has dedicated more than
two decades to helping companies

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thrive and achieve breakthrough
performance.

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Since founding Co-Creation
Partners in 2010, he has

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designed and led programs and
workshops for a number of

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different clients across
multiple sectors names such as

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Procter Gamble, pepsi-cola and
so on and so forth.

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Mark is an engineer by training
.

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We're going to get along just
fine.

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I work with a lot of engineers
and began his career as a Navy

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officer and a member of the US
Naval Construction Battalion,

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also known as the Seabees, and
he brought his experience and

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insights into the performance of
engineered systems to McKinsey,

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where he was a consultant and
has also worked with a number of

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different industries and
wonderful companies.

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Welcome to the show this week
guys.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having us.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely Well,
super excited for the

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conversation and, before we hit
record here, I was just

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commenting that I've got a copy
of this book Unfear and I get a

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lot of books in my role as a
podcaster but this is one of

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those that I started reading
through it and it was just like,

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oh, that's good stuff.

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Oh, that's good stuff.

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So thank you for writing the
book and I encourage our

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listeners to check it out.

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But why don't we just start
with what prompted you to write

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a book about fear?

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Speaker 3: We wanted to convey
to the world what we saw as a

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primary source of waste and
dysfunction in organizations.

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So our company co-creation
partners, we help organizations

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improve their performance and
employee well-being.

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And fear always sat at the
heart of what we worked on with

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clients, and it's often, you
know, it's an element in an

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organization that people you
know don't fully acknowledge or

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don't really see, and so we
wanted to create a book that

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helped people see what was
really going on in their

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organization with respect to
fear and what they could do

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about it.

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What would you say, Gaurav?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so all of that.

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But the other thing I would say
is that I'm a recovering fear

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addict, and so writing a book
about the stuff that I'm

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recovering from made sense.

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I think I've written this book
in my head about 20 times before

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I actually got down to writing
it with Mark during the pandemic

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, so it's been a long time
coming it with.

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Speaker 4: Mark during the
pandemic, so it's been a long

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time coming.

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Elaborate on that a little bit
more.

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So you've found that fear holds
people back.

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Fear of what?

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Is there one or two things, or
what does that look like?

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Speaker 2: Sure.

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Well, so then you know it's
interesting, because the one

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thing I'll tell you is that I
haven't met a single human being

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who doesn't have fear.

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Now, there's some common
patterns.

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The top three or four that I
often run across in

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organizations is fear of failure
.

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The second one, which is
especially true for senior

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people in organizations and CEOs
, is fear of being an imposter

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and fear of being found out.

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The third one is the fear of
not being appreciated or

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validated, and the last one is
the fear of being disliked.

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Those are often the four which
I find to be the most common.

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Speaker 4: There are many, many
more, but those are the ones

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that are quite typical.

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Well, I was just going to say I
was at a seminar yesterday

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actually, and one of the
speakers was talking about

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imposter syndrome and I learned
that that coin or that was that

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phrase, I guess really came out
in the 70s, 1970s.

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It's been around for that long
and I think it's a real thing.

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And you know the speaker's like
why are we still talking about

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this?

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And it is, it's because of fear
, it's real.

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So I just found that really
interesting.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and the
important idea we want to get

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across in the book as well is
that fear itself is not the

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problem, and we all have these
fears and it's more about

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changing the story we hold about
the fears that we have.

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So we'll still experience fear
as human beings, that's just,

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that's a natural thing.

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But if we can shift how we
relate to those fears, that's

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where, you know, people have
those breakthroughs and can be

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more effective.

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And I think that's important
for HR professionals as well,

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because I think there's a
tendency to say look, fear is

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bad, let's figure out how we
almost eliminate it or, you know

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, suppress it, and so that
creates its own dysfunction.

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And you know, we think there's
a false dichotomy between using

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fear and suppressing fear.

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It's really doing something
completely different.

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One of the things that I think
is so powerful in this content

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is the fact that we can all
relate to this.

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So, gaurav, I really
appreciated throughout the book.

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You used personal examples and
you were you were really kind of

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you know, honestly pretty
vulnerable and I and I, as I

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reflect on that and the comment
that you called yourself a fear

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addict.

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Obviously you overcame that in
some way because you were able

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to be vulnerable in a book
that's going to go out to

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thousands and thousands of
readers around the world.

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So what tactics did you use to,
first of all, to just kind of

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identify oh you know I've got an
issue with this and then figure

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out how do I actually overcome
some of these challenges?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's a
brilliant question, because I

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thought fear was a good thing,
that the fact that I felt fear

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was a great thing, because it
galvanized me into doing things.

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And this is a long time ago.

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So this was 2002 and, uh, I was
sitting in a workshop which I

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did not want to be in.

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Um, it was.

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It was being run by this
british woman who had called it,

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called herself gita bellen, and
gita is an indian name, and I

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used to tell everyone she's a
fraud and because her real name

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is margaret and she's just taken
an Indian name to convince us.

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And I'm Indian, so I'm allowed
to say that.

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And as I was in that workshop,
what I realized was that I was

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in a pattern where I was so
caught up with success that I

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had lost my connection to joy.

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And this lady helped me
understand that.

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And when she opened that gap,
it forced me to really, really

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reflect on all the things, all
the stories that I had created

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in my head about success and the
fear of failure that was

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holding me in a very, very
dysfunctional pattern, and the

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fact that I was able to then
reframe all of that through the

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help of many, many people.

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After that, it just felt that
it would be intellectually

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dishonest not to share that
journey and to make it about

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everyone else when ultimately,
you know, I am just like anyone

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else.

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Speaker 4: And so, admitting to
that fear and you have that

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self-realization, how we have a
lot of people walk into our

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office in HR and a lot of people
don't have, how do we help them

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get to that moment that you got
to?

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How do we help them realize
that, hey, fear is the issue or

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this is a fear?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so.

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So this is a great question.

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So I think for most people who
are not ready to engage in a

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conversation about fear, you
don't start with a conversation

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about fear.

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You start with a conversation
about behavior, and what you do

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is you help them understand that
behavior is not something that

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just happens, because most of
the time people think, oh, I

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have a behavior, someone will
tell me another behavior and

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I'll go to that new behavior.

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But my experience is that you
know you do that and then stress

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happens and you ping right back
to your old behavior.

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So the conversation that we
lead people through to help them

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understand the fear is we
actually have them understand a

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whole process of what are the
stories, what are the thoughts

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and feelings, what are the
belief systems that are driving

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that behavior.

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And as you go through that, it
always leads to our inherent

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unmet needs and our fears.

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So you get people to that point
through them understanding

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themselves rather than starting
with fear, because fear is a

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taboo topic in organizations,
right, I mean, it's amazing how

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everyone talks about how there's
fear, but when you go into the

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corporate boardroom, oh, no, no,
no, our organization is no fear

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and I never had fear To be
fearful or to have fears is to

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be a weak leader is often what
happens, so you can't directly

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engage in that conversation.

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Speaker 4: You know I'm thinking
through my own organization and

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I'm in sales, so I see this all
the time.

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Right, and people have heard me
say this before.

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But it drives me crazy when a
leader comes to me and says all

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of our people just suck, they're
low performers, they don't want

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to do the job, they just won't
do.

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It says all of our people just
suck, they're low performers,

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they don't want to do the job,
they just won't do it.

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And as I was hearing, you know
you guys talk about this, I do.

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I think that most of the people
it comes back to they are

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fearful of something.

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So if we change that
conversation, I think it could

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be so impactful.

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Speaker 2: That's so true and,
Mark, I'm sure you have a

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perspective on that.

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But what I?

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What I believe is most people
don't come to work with an

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intention to underperform Right.

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They don't come to work to say
I'm just going to collect my

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paycheck and screw everything
else.

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Most people have good
intentions, but they have

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stories which hold them back,
and then they get reinforced in

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the organization through these
archetypes which are either

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aggressive, defensive or passive
, defensive.

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That then makes them become
suboptimal and then it becomes

236
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completely embedded and then
people say there's no way out

237
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and they start asserting it as
if it's the truth.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and just to
build on that there's you know

239
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Gaurav mentioned the aggressive,
defensive, passive defensive

240
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sort of patterns.

241
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There are some people who,
driven by fear, actually work

242
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themselves to burnout.

243
00:12:49,693 --> 00:12:52,543
You know, those are people who
are super competitive, perhaps

244
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they're perfectionistic, you
know.

245
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So that's one general pattern.

246
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The other are maybe those
people who just don't really

247
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show up.

248
00:12:59,707 --> 00:13:02,874
They just keep their head down
and they're just trying really

249
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hard to not make any mistakes.

250
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So that's sort of the other
pattern.

251
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So you see both, but they're
both signs that there's some

252
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underlying fear that's driving
that dysfunction.

253
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Speaker 1: You know it's really
interesting because you know and

254
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I'm reflecting on, you know, my
organization's we're a

255
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manufacturing organization
Definitely some machismo in the

256
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leadership ranks Admitting that
you're afraid or that fear is

257
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interacting with your
decision-making process.

258
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It would be very surprising if
that were to occur.

259
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I think now we have a great
leadership team and I think we

260
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have some very intellectually
and emotionally intellectual

261
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people, but they're not going to
come out and be like, oh yeah,

262
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I'm really terrified of this.

263
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But I think what was so
interesting in that and I'm just

264
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reflecting on myself is, I
think you know what, what was so

265
00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:03,465
interesting in that and I'm
just reflecting on on myself is,

266
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you know I can, but I can
absolutely uh, relate to the, to

267
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the fear of failure or the fear
of looking like an idiot, you

268
00:14:08,836 --> 00:14:11,587
know, or or the, you know, the
fear of of losing my job Cause I

269
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just completely screwed up a
project.

270
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And you know the moments that
you know I, I remember distinct

271
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moments in my career where I've
just I've I've been driven to

272
00:14:23,313 --> 00:14:24,679
inaction because I, and you know
and it really is kind of now

273
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that I think about it in this
context it's almost like being

274
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petrified because of that fear
response as opposed to, you know

275
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, working, working through that.

276
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And, molly, it was funny when
you mentioned the people coming

277
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into my office.

278
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It's, you know, I don't know if
it's as much for me about

279
00:14:44,298 --> 00:14:46,020
somebody else working through
their fear.

280
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A lot of it comes back to me
and, you know, you get that pit,

281
00:14:52,572 --> 00:14:55,697
you get that feeling in the pit
of your stomach when someone

282
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comes walking in that door and
it really is.

283
00:14:58,488 --> 00:15:01,605
It's a fear of what's coming in
next, right, and you don't know

284
00:15:01,605 --> 00:15:03,009
, especially in HR sometimes.

285
00:15:03,009 --> 00:15:06,365
Sometimes this stuff is you
can't, you couldn't write a book

286
00:15:06,365 --> 00:15:06,666
about it.

287
00:15:06,666 --> 00:15:11,535
So, so as as we cope through
that kind of personally, I kind

288
00:15:11,556 --> 00:15:16,048
of reflect on that and in our,
in our world, you know how, how,

289
00:15:16,048 --> 00:15:21,173
as an individual, uh, can I,
can I be aware of that and kind

290
00:15:21,214 --> 00:15:24,398
of work through that when I get
those feelings, the kind of like

291
00:15:24,398 --> 00:15:30,557
the cortisol coursing through
my veins, and then how do I find

292
00:15:30,557 --> 00:15:31,684
mechanisms to cope with that?

293
00:15:32,167 --> 00:15:32,870
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely.

294
00:15:32,870 --> 00:15:36,488
I mean we kind of describe a
learning process that starts

295
00:15:36,508 --> 00:15:38,730
with awareness and then moves to
choice and practice, that

296
00:15:38,750 --> 00:15:40,610
starts with awareness and then
moves to choice and practice.

297
00:15:40,610 --> 00:15:45,634
So step one is just helping
people become aware of where and

298
00:15:45,634 --> 00:15:46,696
how they feel fear.

299
00:15:46,696 --> 00:15:52,240
You know even just the somatic,
you know markers of where that

300
00:15:52,341 --> 00:15:57,567
fear shows up in your body, so
just noticing it and not

301
00:15:57,587 --> 00:15:58,070
necessarily judging it.

302
00:15:58,070 --> 00:16:01,302
And it's also getting people to
become more aware of how their

303
00:16:01,484 --> 00:16:04,412
current responses to fear are
serving them and helping them,

304
00:16:05,153 --> 00:16:07,907
and also where it's not helping
them be effective.

305
00:16:07,947 --> 00:16:10,955
Most of the responses that we
have have served us in some way

306
00:16:11,014 --> 00:16:14,975
at some point in life, but we've
kind of forgotten to question

307
00:16:15,014 --> 00:16:17,845
those patterns and that
conditioning and so we bring

308
00:16:17,924 --> 00:16:20,631
those patterns into the present
moment and it may not actually

309
00:16:20,672 --> 00:16:22,616
allow us to be effective.

310
00:16:22,616 --> 00:16:25,985
So, kyle, you were mentioning a
situation where maybe you're

311
00:16:26,024 --> 00:16:28,090
holding back and not sharing
something.

312
00:16:28,090 --> 00:16:31,038
Maybe that served you well in
the past but maybe it's not

313
00:16:31,966 --> 00:16:33,289
particularly effective at this
point.

314
00:16:33,289 --> 00:16:35,966
And so getting people to just
realize that go through that

315
00:16:36,006 --> 00:16:39,822
thought process so they can make
more active choices to be more

316
00:16:39,864 --> 00:16:43,058
effective, through that thought
process, so they can make more

317
00:16:43,078 --> 00:16:44,205
active choices to be more
effective.

318
00:16:44,205 --> 00:16:45,567
And then practicing that.

319
00:16:45,567 --> 00:16:46,230
You know it takes practice.

320
00:16:46,230 --> 00:16:46,630
It's not.

321
00:16:46,630 --> 00:16:47,495
You know there's no quick fix
there.

322
00:16:47,495 --> 00:16:48,900
Necessarily awareness and
choice are the start of it, but

323
00:16:48,921 --> 00:16:51,048
you really have to practice
stepping out of your comfort

324
00:16:51,067 --> 00:16:54,856
zone and working into these new
patterns of behavior.

325
00:16:55,625 --> 00:16:58,153
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we talk
about in the book that fear.

326
00:16:58,153 --> 00:17:02,086
So you know, in our brain, a
lot of our decisions are

327
00:17:02,125 --> 00:17:04,653
emotional decisions that we
post-rationalize.

328
00:17:04,653 --> 00:17:08,834
Right, and the emotional brain
has two parts the pain complex

329
00:17:08,894 --> 00:17:09,836
and the pleasure complex.

330
00:17:09,836 --> 00:17:14,134
And the pain complex is like
Velcro, so it sticks to us,

331
00:17:14,938 --> 00:17:17,529
while the pleasure complex is
like Teflon, so you get a high

332
00:17:17,549 --> 00:17:18,212
and you forget it.

333
00:17:18,212 --> 00:17:21,646
That's why my wife still
remembers the one time I forgot

334
00:17:21,686 --> 00:17:24,555
her birthday, even though I tell
her I love you every day.

335
00:17:24,555 --> 00:17:28,287
Right, but, but it's but, but,
but that's.

336
00:17:28,287 --> 00:17:29,730
That's the interesting thing,
right?

337
00:17:29,730 --> 00:17:29,950
So?

338
00:17:29,950 --> 00:17:36,811
So how do you get conscious of
knowing that that thing is about

339
00:17:36,811 --> 00:17:37,334
to happen?

340
00:17:37,334 --> 00:17:40,284
And the other problem is we
live in our heads, and this is

341
00:17:40,344 --> 00:17:42,809
about the first step is to get
to learn to live in our body.

342
00:17:43,746 --> 00:17:44,186
Speaker 1: Where in our?

343
00:17:44,207 --> 00:17:48,872
Speaker 2: body, do we feel it,
and then deliberately create a

344
00:17:48,912 --> 00:17:49,513
point of choice.

345
00:17:49,513 --> 00:17:52,969
But that's just a short term
thing, because the next time it

346
00:17:53,009 --> 00:17:54,374
happens it'll happen again.

347
00:17:54,374 --> 00:17:58,428
So the other thing we talk
about and people think it's

348
00:17:58,508 --> 00:18:03,074
pretty woo-woo, but it isn't is
we also recommend meditation as

349
00:18:03,114 --> 00:18:03,655
a practice.

350
00:18:03,655 --> 00:18:07,532
And the reason why we recommend
meditation as a practice is

351
00:18:07,573 --> 00:18:12,069
because, over time, what
meditation allows us to do is it

352
00:18:12,069 --> 00:18:18,829
allows us to clean up those
Velcro things that are reference

353
00:18:18,829 --> 00:18:19,933
points for our fear.

354
00:18:19,933 --> 00:18:22,471
Velcro things that are
reference points for our fear,

355
00:18:22,491 --> 00:18:28,766
and if you don't clean up those
reference points, there's

356
00:18:28,806 --> 00:18:30,212
nothing transformational that
happens in terms of your

357
00:18:30,232 --> 00:18:31,499
relationship to fear.

358
00:18:31,499 --> 00:18:33,949
So there's a short-term thing,
which is in the moment what do

359
00:18:33,989 --> 00:18:34,250
you do?

360
00:18:34,250 --> 00:18:37,410
But there's a longer-term thing
as well, which is how do you

361
00:18:37,470 --> 00:18:42,613
engage in practices that allow
you to cleanse your system of

362
00:18:42,653 --> 00:18:47,094
your patterns of connections
that you have built over many

363
00:18:47,134 --> 00:18:47,374
years?

364
00:18:48,036 --> 00:18:50,887
Speaker 4: I know a lot of
people who think meditation is

365
00:18:51,670 --> 00:18:54,394
great for the mind, body, soul,
all of that stuff.

366
00:18:54,394 --> 00:18:58,027
And when I first started, you
know hearing these things in my

367
00:18:58,086 --> 00:19:01,011
head, I just pictured, okay, I'm
going to lay on the floor for

368
00:19:01,051 --> 00:19:06,318
an hour quiet, like who has time
for that, but I don't think

369
00:19:06,358 --> 00:19:09,229
that's what meditation is or has
to be.

370
00:19:09,229 --> 00:19:10,070
Am I right?

371
00:19:10,070 --> 00:19:10,692
Am I wrong?

372
00:19:11,253 --> 00:19:11,575
Speaker 2: Yeah.

373
00:19:11,575 --> 00:19:14,405
So I don't know if meditation
is lying on the floor for half

374
00:19:14,445 --> 00:19:18,530
an hour, but the fundamentals of
meditation are twofold.

375
00:19:18,530 --> 00:19:25,337
Fundamentals of meditation are
the ability to observe while

376
00:19:25,377 --> 00:19:28,642
you're in the act of doing
something Right.

377
00:19:28,642 --> 00:19:31,673
So the most simplest form of
meditation is to notice your

378
00:19:31,693 --> 00:19:33,971
breathing when you have your
thoughts, notice your thoughts.

379
00:19:33,971 --> 00:19:35,806
So why is that so important.

380
00:19:35,806 --> 00:19:40,009
The reason why that's so
important is because meditation

381
00:19:40,150 --> 00:19:43,291
actually gives you the practice
of understanding that you're not

382
00:19:43,291 --> 00:19:48,336
just an actor in your life
story, in your organizational

383
00:19:48,376 --> 00:19:48,737
story.

384
00:19:48,737 --> 00:19:52,160
You're also the director of
your life story, because you can

385
00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:54,362
observe yourself in that moment
.

386
00:19:54,362 --> 00:19:59,875
And when you're a director, you
can shift things.

387
00:19:59,875 --> 00:20:01,001
If you're just an actor, then
you are.

388
00:20:01,021 --> 00:20:04,211
You know, when I started my life
, my career, my journey, it was

389
00:20:04,491 --> 00:20:06,195
I used to say I'm an angry kind
of person.

390
00:20:06,195 --> 00:20:07,226
That's just the way I am.

391
00:20:07,226 --> 00:20:11,335
And if you don't want to get
into a bad situation with me,

392
00:20:11,394 --> 00:20:14,667
just don't hang out with me when
I'm angry, because that's who I

393
00:20:14,667 --> 00:20:14,887
am.

394
00:20:14,887 --> 00:20:18,535
And what this work has taught
me meditation has taught me is

395
00:20:18,575 --> 00:20:22,145
is that I'm bigger than my anger
, because I can observe it and

396
00:20:22,226 --> 00:20:23,371
from there I can shift it.

397
00:20:23,371 --> 00:20:29,336
And to be both the director and
actor is such an important idea

398
00:20:29,336 --> 00:20:32,894
and that is the core of
meditation, if you really think

399
00:20:32,933 --> 00:20:33,295
about it.

400
00:20:33,295 --> 00:20:40,469
To be meditative in everything
you do is the intention, rather

401
00:20:40,489 --> 00:20:42,011
than to meditate and just lie
down.

402
00:20:43,934 --> 00:20:45,195
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I know a
lot of people.

403
00:20:46,576 --> 00:20:49,920
I know a lot of people, myself
included for a period of time

404
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:51,881
are very skeptical of meditation
.

405
00:20:51,901 --> 00:20:54,502
It seems like one of those
woo-woo things like I don't need

406
00:20:54,502 --> 00:20:58,266
to do that stuff, like I'm
effective enough already and

407
00:20:58,346 --> 00:21:01,827
that's just kind of a soft,
touchy-feely thing to do.

408
00:21:01,827 --> 00:21:06,351
I personally, over time, have
come to appreciate that it

409
00:21:06,392 --> 00:21:08,232
doesn't have to be this weird
woo-woo thing.

410
00:21:08,232 --> 00:21:16,378
It really is this process of
becoming more aware of

411
00:21:16,398 --> 00:21:17,843
everything that's happening,
whether it's changing body

412
00:21:17,863 --> 00:21:20,276
sensations and your emotions and
your thought processes and just

413
00:21:20,276 --> 00:21:24,637
not being so lost in thought,
and it just gives you a lot more

414
00:21:24,637 --> 00:21:29,688
flexibility about how you can
show up in any given moment to

415
00:21:29,728 --> 00:21:30,189
be effective.

416
00:21:30,189 --> 00:21:32,622
You're not so fused with your
emotion and your thoughts.

417
00:21:32,622 --> 00:21:35,878
You can step back, like Laura
mentioned, and be more of that

418
00:21:36,039 --> 00:21:36,461
observer.

419
00:21:36,461 --> 00:21:36,762
It's just.

420
00:21:36,762 --> 00:21:39,613
It's a more powerful way to
live life.

421
00:21:39,613 --> 00:21:42,421
You know, if you're nervous in
a meeting, like a podcast

422
00:21:42,441 --> 00:21:44,955
meeting, you can sort of notice
that and how it's showing up in

423
00:21:44,976 --> 00:21:48,240
your body and you know just
shift your breath a little bit

424
00:21:48,300 --> 00:21:51,967
and how you're um, how you're
sitting, and it just allows you

425
00:21:52,047 --> 00:21:53,670
to to shift in the moment.

426
00:21:53,670 --> 00:21:57,180
So that's something I've
discovered over time.

427
00:21:58,303 --> 00:21:58,423
Speaker 1: It's.

428
00:21:58,423 --> 00:22:02,718
It's it's really interesting
and and I am, I probably should

429
00:22:02,758 --> 00:22:07,726
be, but I I'm not a meditation
practicer Um, and I think part

430
00:22:07,746 --> 00:22:10,789
of it's just because, yeah, I
just I don't know enough about

431
00:22:10,829 --> 00:22:10,869
it.

432
00:22:10,869 --> 00:22:13,644
But it's interesting that you
know you'll consistently hear

433
00:22:13,684 --> 00:22:17,277
that feedback from experts who
have studied.

434
00:22:17,277 --> 00:22:20,596
You know the brain and
emotional responses and you know

435
00:22:20,596 --> 00:22:24,227
a great example of an unhealthy
approach to this.

436
00:22:24,227 --> 00:22:26,428
And now, as I, you know, after
I read the book and as I'm

437
00:22:26,448 --> 00:22:28,938
reflecting on the conversation
here, it was really a fear

438
00:22:28,978 --> 00:22:29,480
response.

439
00:22:29,539 --> 00:22:34,356
But you know, earlier in my
career, I used to, as opposed to

440
00:22:34,356 --> 00:22:37,785
, approach conflict or, you know
, my fear of what might be

441
00:22:37,825 --> 00:22:39,817
walking through my door in a
healthy way.

442
00:22:39,817 --> 00:22:43,505
I would flip a switch in my
brain and become like an

443
00:22:43,546 --> 00:22:47,462
emotionless jerk, because then I
wouldn't have to deal with it,

444
00:22:47,663 --> 00:22:50,179
right, I wouldn't have to take
on the emotional burden of

445
00:22:50,318 --> 00:22:54,468
somebody else's problems or
having to terminate somebody's

446
00:22:54,515 --> 00:22:56,278
employment or something along
those lines.

447
00:22:56,278 --> 00:23:00,087
You know the unfun part of
human resources.

448
00:23:00,087 --> 00:23:02,586
But eventually I did have to
figure out okay, how do I cope

449
00:23:02,606 --> 00:23:07,344
with this and retain my humanity
through the course of my, you

450
00:23:07,364 --> 00:23:11,634
know, essential job functions,
otherwise I'm going to have a

451
00:23:11,654 --> 00:23:13,018
mental break, right?

452
00:23:13,018 --> 00:23:18,028
And so I think that goes to you
know the burnout and it wasn't

453
00:23:18,095 --> 00:23:22,224
meditation, but it was, I would
say it was community and it was

454
00:23:22,265 --> 00:23:25,482
getting connected with wonderful
professionals like Molly and

455
00:23:25,542 --> 00:23:26,425
like-minded folks.

456
00:23:26,425 --> 00:23:29,355
That helped me understand I
wasn't alone and kind of,

457
00:23:29,395 --> 00:23:34,428
building that community for me
was the antidote for that.

458
00:23:34,775 --> 00:23:36,398
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Kyle,
that's meditation too.

459
00:23:36,398 --> 00:23:39,988
When you engage in deep
reflective conversations with

460
00:23:40,055 --> 00:23:43,806
other people with intentionality
, that is being meditative as

461
00:23:43,846 --> 00:23:44,006
well.

462
00:23:44,515 --> 00:23:46,417
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that story
resonates with my life

463
00:23:46,458 --> 00:23:49,282
experience as well, kyle,
because you know, growing up,

464
00:23:50,124 --> 00:23:53,028
you know, and being trained as
an engineer and being in the

465
00:23:53,068 --> 00:23:56,221
Navy, you know I was sort of
taught that to be a man in the

466
00:23:56,260 --> 00:23:58,045
world you have to suppress your
emotions.

467
00:23:58,045 --> 00:24:01,163
You know, anger is an okay
emotion, but pretty much any

468
00:24:01,203 --> 00:24:04,695
other emotion is suspect, it
means you're not effective.

469
00:24:04,695 --> 00:24:08,746
But there's a, there's a cost
to that and you know, carrying

470
00:24:08,766 --> 00:24:11,862
all the stress, you know, and
the Velcro that Gaurav mentioned

471
00:24:11,862 --> 00:24:14,596
, you know that's still there
but it just it sort of sits

472
00:24:14,657 --> 00:24:17,163
inside and that it sort of eats
you from the inside out.

473
00:24:17,163 --> 00:24:20,819
And so I've learned over time
that I can actually, you know,

474
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,895
be okay with my emotions and
share those emotions and be

475
00:24:23,935 --> 00:24:27,182
vulnerable, and it doesn't mean
I'm not effective and I can

476
00:24:27,222 --> 00:24:32,721
still, you know, be who I am,
but just be it in a way that's

477
00:24:32,780 --> 00:24:33,321
more open.

478
00:24:34,344 --> 00:24:36,167
Speaker 4: Yeah, sometimes, I
think, with fear, you just have

479
00:24:36,188 --> 00:24:39,442
to do it to overcome it,
otherwise you have so much

480
00:24:39,501 --> 00:24:40,584
buildup in your head.

481
00:24:40,584 --> 00:24:43,257
For me it used to be like hard
conversation.

482
00:24:43,257 --> 00:24:45,799
I just had this internal fear
of oh my gosh, what if I don't

483
00:24:45,859 --> 00:24:46,180
do this right?

484
00:24:46,180 --> 00:24:46,840
What if it doesn't go well?

485
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:48,123
What if I don't do this right?

486
00:24:48,123 --> 00:24:49,223
What if it doesn't go well?

487
00:24:49,223 --> 00:24:50,766
What if I don't say the right
things?

488
00:24:50,766 --> 00:24:52,528
What if I offend this person?

489
00:24:52,528 --> 00:24:53,849
What if I make it worse?

490
00:24:53,849 --> 00:24:58,459
And it was just creating more
conflict.

491
00:24:58,459 --> 00:25:00,645
And then you know, once you
start having those hard

492
00:25:00,685 --> 00:25:03,434
conversations, it's like an
instant weight off your shoulder

493
00:25:03,434 --> 00:25:07,419
and it's like, ok, that wasn't
so bad, I can do this, sure.

494
00:25:21,047 --> 00:25:23,208
Speaker 2: And it's like, okay,
that wasn't so bad, I can do

495
00:25:23,248 --> 00:25:23,328
this.

496
00:25:23,328 --> 00:25:25,490
Something bad is going to
happen.

497
00:25:25,490 --> 00:25:31,593
And what a lot of my work with
leaders is about is being right

498
00:25:31,674 --> 00:25:35,323
is not the same thing as being
effective, and when we get into

499
00:25:35,363 --> 00:25:38,778
the right mode, then we get into
a right and wrong mode and we

500
00:25:38,798 --> 00:25:42,306
make other people wrong, and the
job of leadership is actually

501
00:25:42,867 --> 00:25:47,063
to inspire and build
followership, and the more you

502
00:25:47,423 --> 00:25:51,058
you make people wrong by being
right, you actually end up being

503
00:25:51,058 --> 00:25:52,644
more ineffective rather than
effective.

504
00:25:52,954 --> 00:25:54,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I imagine
that just creates like this

505
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,486
defensive, toxic culture.

506
00:25:57,906 --> 00:25:58,087
Speaker 2: Yeah.

507
00:25:59,134 --> 00:26:04,346
Speaker 1: It's such a good
conversation and I've taken away

508
00:26:04,346 --> 00:26:04,728
so much.

509
00:26:04,728 --> 00:26:06,138
One thing I do want to talk
about.

510
00:26:06,138 --> 00:26:09,718
That that was was a definitely
a light bulb moment for me as I

511
00:26:09,758 --> 00:26:13,046
was reading through the book was
the fear archetypes.

512
00:26:13,046 --> 00:26:16,721
And you know there's I mean
this is scientifically backed,

513
00:26:17,883 --> 00:26:19,287
you know I I love the fact that.

514
00:26:19,287 --> 00:26:23,940
You know it ties back to
validated, peer reviewed studies

515
00:26:23,940 --> 00:26:26,682
and and you know this isn't a,
this isn't like, hey, let's

516
00:26:26,702 --> 00:26:29,205
throw, let's throw some darts at
a board and see what names

517
00:26:29,286 --> 00:26:30,988
sound good that we can put in
here.

518
00:26:30,988 --> 00:26:33,730
So, so, and and what.

519
00:26:38,494 --> 00:26:39,896
What really resonated with me
was the difference between the

520
00:26:39,916 --> 00:26:41,559
fear archetypes and the, and
they're separated by the fight

521
00:26:41,660 --> 00:26:42,661
club and the nice club.

522
00:26:42,661 --> 00:26:45,445
And as I was reading through it
, I'm like, oh, yep, I know one

523
00:26:45,465 --> 00:26:48,230
of those, I know one of those, I
got one of those.

524
00:26:48,230 --> 00:26:54,196
Yep, we got one of those too.

525
00:26:54,196 --> 00:26:55,461
And it was just so funny that
it allowed me to kind of put

526
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:55,982
that all into context.

527
00:26:55,982 --> 00:26:58,230
And then, in my seat, one of
the biggest challenges is

528
00:26:58,371 --> 00:27:02,778
working through organizational
change and trying to get people

529
00:27:02,818 --> 00:27:07,786
aligned and, you know, trying to
manage through COVID when 50%

530
00:27:07,846 --> 00:27:11,070
of the United States feels one
way and the other 50% feels

531
00:27:11,131 --> 00:27:14,402
another, and you could go down
the list.

532
00:27:14,402 --> 00:27:17,893
Over the last 18 months, some
of the turmoil that's been

533
00:27:18,032 --> 00:27:18,654
brought in the workplace.

534
00:27:18,654 --> 00:27:24,102
But can we just maybe take a
step back and walk us through

535
00:27:24,461 --> 00:27:31,951
what some of those archetypes
are and how fear plays into them

536
00:27:31,951 --> 00:27:31,951
?

537
00:27:32,435 --> 00:27:34,959
Speaker 3: Yeah, we should first
acknowledge that the archetypes

538
00:27:34,959 --> 00:27:37,563
are based on the work from an
organization called Human

539
00:27:37,962 --> 00:27:51,296
Synergistics International and
the work of Dr Robert Cook book,

540
00:27:51,296 --> 00:27:52,597
so the archetypes very closely
align to some of the survey

541
00:27:52,617 --> 00:27:54,241
tools that they use and that we
use in a lot of our client work.

542
00:27:54,241 --> 00:27:57,167
But there's two primary camps
here to the fear archetypes.

543
00:27:57,167 --> 00:28:04,128
One is the fight club and the
basic response there is people

544
00:28:04,169 --> 00:28:09,184
see threats and they try to stay
safe by standing out and being

545
00:28:09,224 --> 00:28:11,803
special, and we can go through
the four archetypes there.

546
00:28:11,803 --> 00:28:17,460
The second is the nice club and
the way in which this group

547
00:28:18,441 --> 00:28:20,986
stays safe in the presence of
threats is they keep their head

548
00:28:21,006 --> 00:28:22,808
down and they sort of hide.

549
00:28:22,808 --> 00:28:28,326
And so I can list these off
real quick and we can jump in as

550
00:28:28,326 --> 00:28:28,666
needed.

551
00:28:28,775 --> 00:28:30,863
But within the Fight Club you've
got perfectionists.

552
00:28:30,863 --> 00:28:34,695
These are people that need to
get everything right, dot all

553
00:28:34,717 --> 00:28:36,061
the I's, cross all the T's.

554
00:28:36,061 --> 00:28:39,681
There's the competitors, so
people who are ultra competitive

555
00:28:39,681 --> 00:28:41,546
and need to win at all costs.

556
00:28:41,546 --> 00:28:45,339
There's the controllers these
are people that need to be

557
00:28:45,380 --> 00:28:47,526
controlled and they tend to be
very hierarchical.

558
00:28:47,526 --> 00:28:48,337
And the fault finders.

559
00:28:48,337 --> 00:28:49,565
These are people that need to
be controlled and they tend to

560
00:28:49,585 --> 00:28:49,987
be very hierarchical.

561
00:28:49,987 --> 00:28:50,430
And the fault finders.

562
00:28:50,430 --> 00:28:51,375
These are the consultants of
the world.

563
00:28:51,375 --> 00:28:54,721
They're constantly finding
faults and seeing problems

564
00:28:54,981 --> 00:28:57,708
everywhere, including with
themselves and with other people

565
00:28:57,708 --> 00:29:03,142
, and so you can see that
there's benefits and those

566
00:29:03,383 --> 00:29:07,087
archetypes or those patterns
help people be effective in some

567
00:29:07,087 --> 00:29:09,297
ways, but they also have their
downsides.

568
00:29:10,419 --> 00:29:13,724
Then, on the nice club side,
you've got the likables.

569
00:29:13,724 --> 00:29:18,461
These are people who just try
to be nice and minimize conflict

570
00:29:18,461 --> 00:29:18,461
.

571
00:29:18,461 --> 00:29:21,326
You've got the sticklers.

572
00:29:21,326 --> 00:29:24,057
These are people who throw the
rule book at you anytime

573
00:29:24,419 --> 00:29:25,200
something's going on.

574
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,568
That happens a little bit in
the HR world, from what we've

575
00:29:29,608 --> 00:29:29,788
seen.

576
00:29:29,788 --> 00:29:31,157
You've got the minions.

577
00:29:31,157 --> 00:29:33,444
These are people who you know
their only customer is their

578
00:29:33,464 --> 00:29:37,123
boss and they're constantly
trying to serve the hierarchy

579
00:29:37,384 --> 00:29:37,765
upwards.

580
00:29:37,765 --> 00:29:39,635
And then you have the avoiders.

581
00:29:39,635 --> 00:29:43,084
These are people who, just you
know, shy away from conflict,

582
00:29:43,765 --> 00:29:47,135
and so you know we're often, you
know, a mix of these archetypes

583
00:29:47,135 --> 00:29:50,138
at any given time, and it
changes by context and we can

584
00:29:50,159 --> 00:29:50,538
ship these.

585
00:29:50,538 --> 00:29:53,141
These aren't like personality
traits that are immutable.

586
00:29:53,141 --> 00:29:57,384
These are just patterns of
behavior that we've come to

587
00:29:57,423 --> 00:30:00,846
adapt over time, based on values
that are actually quite

588
00:30:01,426 --> 00:30:03,989
important, but they've just
become dysfunctional in some

589
00:30:04,009 --> 00:30:06,309
ways, and so we try to shine a
light on that and help people

590
00:30:06,730 --> 00:30:10,113
understand how these patterns
serve them, but how they don't

591
00:30:10,173 --> 00:30:11,134
serve them.

592
00:30:11,153 --> 00:30:13,397
Speaker 2: Yeah, and another
really interesting thing is that

593
00:30:13,397 --> 00:30:16,067
when you engage with the people
who have the fight club

594
00:30:16,188 --> 00:30:19,417
archetypes, often they would say
the reason why we are in the

595
00:30:19,478 --> 00:30:23,426
fight club is because if we
don't use any one of those

596
00:30:23,507 --> 00:30:27,078
archetypes, all those nice club
people are just going to just

597
00:30:27,159 --> 00:30:31,105
not do anything and they are the
reason why we are in the fight

598
00:30:31,125 --> 00:30:31,385
club.

599
00:30:31,385 --> 00:30:36,615
And then you talk to the people
in the nice club and the nice

600
00:30:36,635 --> 00:30:37,901
club people say the reason why
we just hide is because those

601
00:30:37,921 --> 00:30:39,346
guys are always fighting and
screaming at us.

602
00:30:39,346 --> 00:30:43,040
So these two categories
actually mutually

603
00:30:43,261 --> 00:30:45,266
dysfunctionally reinforce each
other.

604
00:30:46,307 --> 00:30:48,682
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you bring
up a really important point,

605
00:30:49,376 --> 00:30:49,557
gorvin.

606
00:30:49,557 --> 00:30:52,851
There's a question about well,
how do these relate to fear?

607
00:30:52,851 --> 00:30:54,557
There's just a certain story.

608
00:30:54,557 --> 00:30:57,929
The fears are essentially all
the same fear of being an

609
00:30:57,970 --> 00:31:00,298
imposter, fear of not belonging,
fear of failure.

610
00:31:00,298 --> 00:31:04,392
The same fears sit beneath all
these archetypes, it's just

611
00:31:04,592 --> 00:31:07,417
different stories that we tell
ourselves about the threats that

612
00:31:07,417 --> 00:31:11,085
we're experiencing lead to
different, you know, patterns of

613
00:31:11,085 --> 00:31:14,516
behavior, and so the the
intervention point here isn't to

614
00:31:14,516 --> 00:31:15,460
get rid of your fear.

615
00:31:15,460 --> 00:31:16,482
That's not realistic.

616
00:31:17,105 --> 00:31:19,815
Speaker 4: it's just to shift
the story that we have about

617
00:31:19,894 --> 00:31:23,923
this threat so, kyle, if I ever
find that that book on my desk,

618
00:31:24,325 --> 00:31:25,527
that must be an intervention.

619
00:31:25,527 --> 00:31:27,078
I'll know I gotta.

620
00:31:27,078 --> 00:31:28,884
I gotta change some of my
behavior.

621
00:31:32,016 --> 00:31:35,284
Speaker 1: You know that's funny
, molly, you know I'd be happy

622
00:31:35,304 --> 00:31:36,287
to give you the copy of the book
.

623
00:31:36,287 --> 00:31:42,666
But you know, I think, for me,
as I was reading on this and

624
00:31:42,707 --> 00:31:45,820
reflecting on this, you know,
the context for me was thinking

625
00:31:45,861 --> 00:31:48,366
about it and relating it to
workplace interactions.

626
00:31:48,366 --> 00:31:55,306
And you know, I think that you
know, personally, I can see a

627
00:31:55,346 --> 00:31:56,808
little bit of all those in me.

628
00:31:56,808 --> 00:32:04,309
But I've also, you know,
reflected on my upbringing and

629
00:32:04,671 --> 00:32:07,597
as well as my kind of where I
started my career and where I am

630
00:32:07,597 --> 00:32:12,192
now upbringing, and as well as
my kind of where I started my

631
00:32:12,231 --> 00:32:16,358
career and where I am now, and,
and you know, it was interesting

632
00:32:16,358 --> 00:32:17,340
to read through those and
reflect and think.

633
00:32:17,361 --> 00:32:18,845
You know, a lot of these
archetypes, you know, were

634
00:32:18,904 --> 00:32:22,534
helpful in the moment, like you
said, mark, where you know it

635
00:32:22,653 --> 00:32:27,424
worked for a period of time but
then I had to adapt and I had to

636
00:32:27,424 --> 00:32:28,989
change and it got uncomfortable
.

637
00:32:28,989 --> 00:32:32,442
But had I not, I would have
just been kind of stuck.

638
00:32:32,442 --> 00:32:36,877
And one of those for me is like
it's the it's, it's it's

639
00:32:36,978 --> 00:32:39,746
wanting to be liked by others,
you know, and I was raised,

640
00:32:40,214 --> 00:32:43,828
raised in a small town in Iowa,
you know, you're, you know, when

641
00:32:43,828 --> 00:32:45,214
there's only 5,000 people in
town.

642
00:32:45,214 --> 00:32:48,061
You gotta be nice because
everybody knows everybody, and

643
00:32:48,363 --> 00:32:50,448
so being liked is really really
important.

644
00:32:52,517 --> 00:32:57,707
But obviously if you overuse
that, especially in a strategic

645
00:32:57,747 --> 00:33:02,301
human resources role, eventually
the drive to be liked could

646
00:33:02,362 --> 00:33:07,061
actually set you up for some
pretty serious failures and if

647
00:33:07,082 --> 00:33:09,914
you're not balancing that, you
know, that desire appropriately

648
00:33:10,154 --> 00:33:11,618
could be a really big pitfall.

649
00:33:11,618 --> 00:33:15,106
So I think just having that
awareness and then, Molly,

650
00:33:15,126 --> 00:33:17,200
almost to your question earlier
you know, when someone comes in

651
00:33:17,220 --> 00:33:19,634
your office and they're
interacting with you in a

652
00:33:19,674 --> 00:33:23,765
certain way, if you can tie that
back to the archetype and kind

653
00:33:23,805 --> 00:33:26,438
of understand okay, this is the
perspective they're coming from.

654
00:33:26,438 --> 00:33:29,525
Now, how do I help them work
through that in a way that

655
00:33:30,226 --> 00:33:35,565
doesn't, you know, jack up their
cortisol anymore, but helps us

656
00:33:35,945 --> 00:33:41,017
channel that into something
that's actually productive For

657
00:33:41,057 --> 00:33:43,664
me, that was kind of one of the
insights that I think you know

658
00:33:44,438 --> 00:33:47,521
it's like a playbook, right,
like okay, how do I play this

659
00:33:47,682 --> 00:33:47,762
one?

660
00:33:53,454 --> 00:33:54,558
Speaker 3: Yeah, and just your
reflection is kind of what we're

661
00:33:54,558 --> 00:33:56,165
hoping people get from the book
is, you know, to see themselves

662
00:33:56,165 --> 00:33:58,634
and the archetype, not beat
themselves over it, you know up

663
00:33:58,674 --> 00:34:00,518
about it, but just you know
seeing how wow.

664
00:34:00,518 --> 00:34:03,762
This may have served me for a
period of time, but it may be

665
00:34:04,304 --> 00:34:05,967
limiting me in this particular
moment.

666
00:34:05,967 --> 00:34:10,380
So that's a great insight, kyle
, and we can share some of ours

667
00:34:10,521 --> 00:34:11,625
as well, from our own lives.

668
00:34:11,625 --> 00:34:15,844
But I think if somebody does
walk into your office and

669
00:34:15,864 --> 00:34:18,456
they're displaying some of these
behaviors, I think it's

670
00:34:18,496 --> 00:34:22,367
important to note that behind
these behaviors are really good

671
00:34:22,407 --> 00:34:24,436
intentions, so likables.

672
00:34:24,436 --> 00:34:30,007
They value harmony and strong
relationships and having people

673
00:34:30,027 --> 00:34:32,161
get along that's actually really
good stuff.

674
00:34:32,161 --> 00:34:35,081
It's just maybe the way in
which they're expressing those

675
00:34:35,121 --> 00:34:38,277
values just isn't effective
right now, and so just helping

676
00:34:38,317 --> 00:34:42,507
people see that may be enough to
create a breakthrough.

677
00:34:43,974 --> 00:34:45,478
Speaker 1: I think the other
thing that was really

678
00:34:45,518 --> 00:34:49,405
interesting and I was reading
this book.

679
00:34:49,405 --> 00:34:52,309
The context here is I had a
really rough day.

680
00:34:52,309 --> 00:34:56,766
I was, you know, and it was a
lot of conflict in the workplace

681
00:34:56,766 --> 00:34:59,844
and I tend to kind of soak that
up.

682
00:34:59,844 --> 00:35:02,539
I tend to, you know, that's
just kind of part of, I think, a

683
00:35:02,539 --> 00:35:03,641
lot of us in HR kind of.

684
00:35:03,641 --> 00:35:06,989
We kind of get those emotions
stuck on us a little bit right,

685
00:35:08,157 --> 00:35:12,070
kind of like we were talking
earlier, um, but thinking about

686
00:35:12,110 --> 00:35:15,559
that in the context of that
person coming from a different

687
00:35:16,460 --> 00:35:20,148
uh perspective than myself and
and thinking that they had to

688
00:35:20,208 --> 00:35:23,141
come from the fight club and and
be uh.

689
00:35:23,141 --> 00:35:27,878
In this case they were, they
were being fault finders and, um

690
00:35:27,878 --> 00:35:30,505
, you know, that was a really
good mindset shift.

691
00:35:30,775 --> 00:35:36,177
And then the other insight was,
you know, in that nice club, a

692
00:35:36,217 --> 00:35:40,177
lot of these likables or minions
, or avoiders, they're probably

693
00:35:40,257 --> 00:35:41,280
really top talent.

694
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:45,429
That's not tapped because
they're just kind of, they're

695
00:35:45,449 --> 00:35:48,780
just in this mode and we haven't
drawn that out of them

696
00:35:49,864 --> 00:35:53,360
intentionally either, right, and
so you know, it was just kind

697
00:35:53,380 --> 00:35:55,467
of an interesting, it was an
interesting read.

698
00:35:55,467 --> 00:35:57,695
I was very emotional when I was
reading this, if you can tell,

699
00:35:57,875 --> 00:35:58,577
and so it was.

700
00:35:58,577 --> 00:36:00,344
It was, it was a timely book to
read.

701
00:36:02,096 --> 00:36:04,304
Speaker 2: I'm so glad that you
found it useful.

702
00:36:09,016 --> 00:36:10,559
Speaker 1: So so I think you
know one of the things that, um,

703
00:36:10,559 --> 00:36:12,304
you know that we we've talked
about is is.

704
00:36:12,304 --> 00:36:14,208
You know the book and, um, you
know, I think one thing that

705
00:36:14,414 --> 00:36:20,186
that, uh, I'd like to understand
, um is is a little bit about

706
00:36:20,246 --> 00:36:21,688
kind of your personal journeys.

707
00:36:21,688 --> 00:36:24,802
Um, you know, and and there's a
lot, of, a lot of examples in

708
00:36:24,822 --> 00:36:35,177
the book, but you know um lot of
examples in the book, but to go

709
00:36:35,177 --> 00:36:36,563
from the McKinsey, the gold
standard, and confront your fear

710
00:36:36,563 --> 00:36:38,250
and go and do something
different and go through that

711
00:36:38,289 --> 00:36:40,518
journey, I'd just like to
understand that path a little

712
00:36:40,559 --> 00:36:42,425
bit more, because I think that'd
be really valuable for our

713
00:36:42,445 --> 00:36:42,744
listeners.

714
00:36:43,454 --> 00:36:44,036
Speaker 3: Yeah, my path.

715
00:36:44,036 --> 00:36:46,880
I mean I guess I've taken an
interesting path.

716
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:50,445
I mean I'm not the typical sort
of person to be talking about

717
00:36:50,827 --> 00:36:52,869
fear and culture and
organizations.

718
00:36:52,869 --> 00:36:56,757
You know I've got an
engineering background and so I

719
00:36:56,817 --> 00:36:59,882
was quite steeped in, you know,
the technical aspects of

720
00:37:00,103 --> 00:37:03,148
creating stuff in the world and
in making it work.

721
00:37:03,148 --> 00:37:07,585
But I'd say earlier in my
career I did study human factors

722
00:37:07,585 --> 00:37:08,407
in engineering.

723
00:37:08,407 --> 00:37:12,563
So I was, you know, early on,
taken in by this idea that it's.

724
00:37:12,563 --> 00:37:15,288
You know, it's not enough to
just have your mathematical

725
00:37:15,327 --> 00:37:16,148
equations be right.

726
00:37:16,148 --> 00:37:33,710
You have to get the human and
organizational factors that led

727
00:37:33,731 --> 00:37:35,231
to that failure, not poor
engineering.

728
00:37:35,231 --> 00:37:39,179
So that was an idea that sat
with me From the Navy I went to

729
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:40,164
McKinsey Company.

730
00:37:40,375 --> 00:37:43,864
I was really deep into, you know
, the technical aspect of

731
00:37:43,903 --> 00:37:47,346
transforming organizations, but
I was, you know, constantly

732
00:37:47,385 --> 00:37:50,840
feeling like we're missing
something on the mindsets part.

733
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:51,742
We would talk about it.

734
00:37:51,742 --> 00:37:54,476
I think there was good
intention there but I would come

735
00:37:54,476 --> 00:37:57,163
back to clients six to 12
months later and just see all of

736
00:37:57,163 --> 00:38:01,864
the brilliant ideas that these
gold standard consultants came

737
00:38:01,923 --> 00:38:03,387
up with and they just didn't
stick.

738
00:38:03,387 --> 00:38:07,409
And at some point in my career
I crossed paths with gora.

739
00:38:07,409 --> 00:38:08,996
If he had started co-creation
partners.

740
00:38:08,996 --> 00:38:12,625
I was still at mckinsey and he
was running some you know

741
00:38:12,664 --> 00:38:14,657
woo-woo workshops with
meditation.

742
00:38:15,217 --> 00:38:17,443
At one of the clients I was
doing the hardcore you know sort

743
00:38:17,443 --> 00:38:20,740
of lean transformation at and I
was like who's this joker, you

744
00:38:20,780 --> 00:38:24,632
know couldn't hack it at
mckinsey and um, I need to go,

745
00:38:25,213 --> 00:38:27,157
you know drop into this workshop
to check in on him.

746
00:38:27,237 --> 00:38:30,820
But but I saw in that workshop
you know just the impact you

747
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,983
know that the ideas had on me
and I was like wow, this was a

748
00:38:34,023 --> 00:38:34,603
missing piece.

749
00:38:34,603 --> 00:38:36,485
You know it's not enough just
to have the technical piece.

750
00:38:36,485 --> 00:38:40,188
You really need to have the
human dimension and the you know

751
00:38:40,188 --> 00:38:43,751
the way in which Gorg was
working with culture really

752
00:38:44,112 --> 00:38:50,036
really stuck with me, really
stuck with me.

753
00:38:50,036 --> 00:38:51,963
So when I left McKinsey seven
years ago, we partnered up and

754
00:38:51,983 --> 00:38:53,347
we try to bring both the human
and technical dimensions

755
00:38:53,367 --> 00:38:53,648
together.

756
00:38:53,648 --> 00:38:54,911
So that's kind of been my
journey.

757
00:38:54,911 --> 00:38:57,280
I think it's been kind of a
steady progression of getting

758
00:38:57,340 --> 00:39:00,137
deeper and deeper into this
stuff, which may be a little bit

759
00:39:00,137 --> 00:39:03,106
different than Gaurav's story,
which was this burst of insight

760
00:39:03,594 --> 00:39:06,822
I sort of have little insights
along the way and I think both

761
00:39:06,902 --> 00:39:07,784
are quite valid.

762
00:39:07,784 --> 00:39:09,007
How about you, gaurav?

763
00:39:12,902 --> 00:39:19,684
Speaker 2: Yeah, listen, I'm the
son of a physicist and I was a

764
00:39:19,965 --> 00:39:26,288
proud card-carrying member of
the fight club and for me it was

765
00:39:26,288 --> 00:39:26,510
all about.

766
00:39:26,510 --> 00:39:32,768
Life is difficult and you kick
ass by overcoming that

767
00:39:34,673 --> 00:39:34,954
difficulty.

768
00:39:34,954 --> 00:39:40,784
Yeah, and I was a nightmare to
be with and I ended up and I did

769
00:39:40,784 --> 00:39:42,737
market research, right, so
that's what my.

770
00:39:42,737 --> 00:39:47,242
I was statistics guy and I
ended up just by chance in South

771
00:39:47,242 --> 00:39:52,516
Africa with my, because because
the US had just had its first

772
00:39:52,556 --> 00:39:56,188
dot-com bust in 2001 and I was
looking for work.

773
00:39:56,188 --> 00:39:59,179
And with Mickey I was still in
McKinsey and I moved to McKinsey

774
00:39:59,179 --> 00:40:02,311
, Johannesburg, and I walked
into my mentor's office and he

775
00:40:02,333 --> 00:40:05,639
said hey, Goddard, I didn't tell
you our office is doing, not

776
00:40:05,679 --> 00:40:06,018
doing too.

777
00:40:06,018 --> 00:40:08,182
And I said dude, why did you
call me?

778
00:40:08,182 --> 00:40:08,802
Are you crazy?

779
00:40:08,802 --> 00:40:10,987
And he said no, no, no, that
doesn't matter.

780
00:40:10,987 --> 00:40:11,768
You know.

781
00:40:11,768 --> 00:40:13,650
All that means is you need to
be a generalist.

782
00:40:15,775 --> 00:40:17,648
But the other thing is there's
this newfangled thing coming in

783
00:40:17,668 --> 00:40:20,269
from Australia around mindset
and we're going to try it on

784
00:40:20,331 --> 00:40:21,960
ourselves because nothing has
worked.

785
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:23,460
I said, great, do it?

786
00:40:23,460 --> 00:40:24,215
Why are you telling me?

787
00:40:24,215 --> 00:40:27,442
He said no, no, because we want
you to lead this effort.

788
00:40:27,442 --> 00:40:30,168
And I looked at him and, like
he was crazy, I said I don't do

789
00:40:30,188 --> 00:40:33,237
touchy-feely stuff, that's for
HR people to do.

790
00:40:35,101 --> 00:40:39,076
And we had a long argument, long
argument, and finally I gave

791
00:40:39,096 --> 00:40:40,077
him my killer argument.

792
00:40:40,077 --> 00:40:41,902
I told him dude, I'm from India
.

793
00:40:41,902 --> 00:40:43,686
And he said what does that mean
?

794
00:40:43,686 --> 00:40:55,179
I said I know people who do
this kind of stuff.

795
00:40:55,179 --> 00:40:57,527
They sit on top of mountains,
they go, not going to do it.

796
00:40:57,527 --> 00:40:59,094
And, as Mark said, I went
creaking and screaming into this

797
00:40:59,094 --> 00:41:05,079
workshop and I realized that
there was so much I didn't know

798
00:41:05,099 --> 00:41:06,927
about things and, being the son
of a physicist, I said, okay,

799
00:41:06,947 --> 00:41:08,434
I'm going to crack it in four
months and that's it.

800
00:41:08,474 --> 00:41:11,139
And the more I engaged with it,
the more I realized I didn't

801
00:41:11,159 --> 00:41:11,320
know.

802
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:19,677
And it became my life's passion
, and I was lucky enough that

803
00:41:21,019 --> 00:41:23,802
helping people unlock their
human potential, their true,

804
00:41:23,842 --> 00:41:30,650
true potential, their angel, is
something that not only did I

805
00:41:30,751 --> 00:41:35,532
love, but it allowed me to help
people connect with something so

806
00:41:35,532 --> 00:41:38,423
essential that I could make a
career out of it.

807
00:41:38,423 --> 00:41:43,072
And so the last 22 years of my
life has just been committed and

808
00:41:43,072 --> 00:41:46,344
dedicated to helping
individuals, teams and

809
00:41:46,425 --> 00:41:51,079
organizations realize their
potential and realize that

810
00:41:51,702 --> 00:41:58,039
well-being and performance are
so interrelated, because it all

811
00:41:58,139 --> 00:42:01,628
ultimately comes down to meaning
and being authentic with

812
00:42:01,648 --> 00:42:01,987
yourself.

813
00:42:03,231 --> 00:42:05,833
Speaker 4: Your passion is
inspiring and I've only known

814
00:42:05,853 --> 00:42:07,378
you for about what an hour.

815
00:42:07,378 --> 00:42:10,679
You seem like the nicest guy,
one of the nicest guys I've ever

816
00:42:10,679 --> 00:42:14,139
met, so that right there we
should get into meditating, kyle

817
00:42:14,139 --> 00:42:14,139
.

818
00:42:14,429 --> 00:42:16,836
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sold, I'm
sold.

819
00:42:17,539 --> 00:42:18,001
Speaker 4: Me too.

820
00:42:18,001 --> 00:42:21,878
Hey, I have one more topic, or
question Kyle, before you cut me

821
00:42:21,878 --> 00:42:22,179
off.

822
00:42:22,179 --> 00:42:24,755
I know that's what you're
trying to do and Kyle didn't

823
00:42:24,795 --> 00:42:25,739
share the book with me.

824
00:42:25,739 --> 00:42:29,733
He was keeping it for himself,
so I don't know if you talked

825
00:42:29,753 --> 00:42:34,402
about this or not, but one big
issue in the workplace right now

826
00:42:34,402 --> 00:42:37,434
is individual people's anxiety.

827
00:42:37,434 --> 00:42:40,842
It's just a real hot topic,
especially in HR.

828
00:42:40,842 --> 00:42:44,175
We're trying to help, you know
these individuals who come into

829
00:42:44,215 --> 00:42:46,061
our offices and help these teams
.

830
00:42:46,061 --> 00:42:50,519
Do you feel like there's a
correlation between fear and

831
00:42:50,721 --> 00:42:51,443
anxiety?

832
00:42:52,210 --> 00:42:55,135
Speaker 3: Yeah, in fact, I
think they're oftentimes one in

833
00:42:55,155 --> 00:42:58,503
the same or they're very, very
closely linked.

834
00:42:58,503 --> 00:43:02,918
So you know, the story you have
about your fear is you're

835
00:43:02,958 --> 00:43:07,277
perceiving some threat and that
threat is sustained and it

836
00:43:07,318 --> 00:43:10,713
continually gets reinforced
through your thought processes.

837
00:43:10,713 --> 00:43:18,123
Then, yeah, it becomes a mood
of anxiety, low level fear that

838
00:43:18,849 --> 00:43:24,320
just sits around all the time
and that, under just about every

839
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:28,396
single circumstance, will
degrade a person's wellbeing,

840
00:43:28,456 --> 00:43:31,516
their health and well-being, and
so I think it's a tremendously

841
00:43:31,576 --> 00:43:35,110
important topic that needs to be
addressed in organizations.

842
00:43:35,110 --> 00:43:39,599
We can talk about some ideas on
how to do that, but I think it

843
00:43:41,322 --> 00:43:44,054
is tough, and I do think just
the general state of the world

844
00:43:45,619 --> 00:43:48,809
is intersecting with just a
general stressful state in most

845
00:43:48,869 --> 00:43:51,556
organizations to begin with, and
it's just making it worse.

846
00:43:51,556 --> 00:43:55,469
So I think there is a trend to
see increased anxiety in

847
00:43:55,530 --> 00:43:56,552
organizations these days.

848
00:43:56,833 --> 00:44:00,581
Speaker 2: And Molly, I was
shocked to read the statistic

849
00:44:00,641 --> 00:44:06,137
that in America today, 50% of
adults have experienced some

850
00:44:06,297 --> 00:44:07,619
kind of childhood trauma.

851
00:44:07,619 --> 00:44:11,965
Today, 50% of adults have
experienced some kind of

852
00:44:12,025 --> 00:44:12,847
childhood trauma.

853
00:44:12,847 --> 00:44:20,032
And trauma is entrenched deeply
, deeply entrenched.

854
00:44:20,032 --> 00:44:22,094
And working with that kind of
entrenched fear and anxiety is

855
00:44:22,135 --> 00:44:24,398
real hard work and you can't
just tell people don't be

856
00:44:24,498 --> 00:44:31,795
anxious or don't have fear,
right, you have to take people

857
00:44:31,815 --> 00:44:33,108
through a deeply experiential
process for them to be able to

858
00:44:33,128 --> 00:44:33,309
unlock it.

859
00:44:33,309 --> 00:44:39,112
You know choice is deeply
personal and therefore the

860
00:44:39,172 --> 00:44:44,123
process cannot be just.

861
00:44:44,971 --> 00:44:46,458
It's not a mathematical equation
.

862
00:44:46,458 --> 00:44:49,570
Often people come to us and say
just give me the formula, just

863
00:44:49,590 --> 00:44:53,518
give me, just give me the right
Mark likes that.

864
00:44:53,518 --> 00:44:58,652
But you know, but it's so
deeply embedded in you that you

865
00:44:58,672 --> 00:45:01,018
have to experience your way out
of it.

866
00:45:01,018 --> 00:45:05,920
And that's what I would advise
HR professionals is that it's

867
00:45:06,101 --> 00:45:10,659
not a system process solution,
it is a experiential solution.

868
00:45:10,659 --> 00:45:17,925
And as much as you guys are
amazing at your craft, you need

869
00:45:17,945 --> 00:45:20,711
to also become amazing
facilitators of human beings,

870
00:45:20,811 --> 00:45:25,003
because that is what is needed
to address anxiety and fear.

871
00:45:25,771 --> 00:45:28,096
Speaker 4: I couldn't agree more
, and I think so often we just,

872
00:45:28,690 --> 00:45:32,539
you know, oh, you have an issue,
let's send you to our EAP, and

873
00:45:32,619 --> 00:45:33,722
it just doesn't work.

874
00:45:33,882 --> 00:45:36,193
Speaker 1: So I think we
definitely need to dive more

875
00:45:36,253 --> 00:45:41,451
into this 100%, and I think you
know, maybe to put a punctuation

876
00:45:41,451 --> 00:45:41,972
mark on it.

877
00:45:41,972 --> 00:45:44,057
You know, I think that that is
it.

878
00:45:44,057 --> 00:45:48,215
And who else is going to do
that in an organization if not

879
00:45:48,496 --> 00:45:49,360
human resources?

880
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:52,340
Right, we need to take
ownership of that.

881
00:45:52,340 --> 00:45:56,050
We need to become experts in
that, become educated and

882
00:45:56,592 --> 00:46:00,099
reflect that inwardly and make
sure that we can help our

883
00:46:00,179 --> 00:46:02,764
organizations overcome that as
well.

884
00:46:02,764 --> 00:46:04,634
So just great stuff.

885
00:46:04,634 --> 00:46:07,902
We are readily coming up on the
end of our time together, but

886
00:46:07,961 --> 00:46:08,202
I've got.

887
00:46:08,202 --> 00:46:11,177
I could talk for another three
hours, but we're just getting

888
00:46:11,197 --> 00:46:11,597
warmed up.

889
00:46:12,079 --> 00:46:13,271
Yeah, I know Right, it's like.

890
00:46:13,271 --> 00:46:16,744
It's like uh, one of the
examples was uh, you talked

891
00:46:16,764 --> 00:46:20,132
about a jazz band and you were
talking about improv, um, and I

892
00:46:20,172 --> 00:46:23,157
used to play jazz back in the
day, so, like that one was like

893
00:46:23,418 --> 00:46:24,500
cool, but but it's like.

894
00:46:24,500 --> 00:46:27,784
It's like the jazz band just
got warmed up and we're like now

895
00:46:27,784 --> 00:46:30,516
we're just starting to hit the
right rhythm and the solo

896
00:46:30,556 --> 00:46:31,860
starting, and now we got to
finish.

897
00:46:32,081 --> 00:46:35,036
Speaker 4: So but better put
part two on the books?

898
00:46:35,077 --> 00:46:36,480
Speaker 1: yeah, absolutely so.

899
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:37,081
Shifting gears.

900
00:46:37,081 --> 00:46:39,516
We're going to go into
something we do with all of our

901
00:46:39,536 --> 00:46:41,702
guests called the rebel hr flash
round.

902
00:46:41,702 --> 00:46:45,192
So three questions that we ask
our listeners.

903
00:46:45,192 --> 00:46:51,648
So because we have two guests
today, I'm going to ask each of

904
00:46:51,728 --> 00:46:54,396
you one question and then I'll
have you both answer the last

905
00:46:54,456 --> 00:46:54,797
question.

906
00:46:54,797 --> 00:46:55,420
How does that sound?

907
00:46:56,010 --> 00:46:57,615
Speaker 2: I think we should
give them all to Mark.

908
00:46:58,418 --> 00:46:59,039
Speaker 1: Give them all to Mark
.

909
00:46:59,039 --> 00:47:01,612
Okay, well, I'm finding out.

910
00:47:01,612 --> 00:47:05,641
Mark probably already had them
written down and documented in a

911
00:47:05,641 --> 00:47:06,972
workflow before we started.

912
00:47:06,972 --> 00:47:11,023
Just take a while, guys take a
while, all right.

913
00:47:11,023 --> 00:47:17,472
All right, I'll start with Mark
.

914
00:47:17,512 --> 00:47:18,193
Speaker 3: How's that All right?

915
00:47:18,193 --> 00:47:19,675
Question number one what are
you reading?

916
00:47:19,675 --> 00:47:21,358
Right now I am reading the
Overstory.

917
00:47:21,358 --> 00:47:25,324
It's a fiction book about just
trees and nature.

918
00:47:25,324 --> 00:47:28,028
It's really, really fascinating
.

919
00:47:28,028 --> 00:47:31,356
One thing I haven't done as
much as read fiction because

920
00:47:31,376 --> 00:47:35,373
I've been so entrenched in
reading, writing a business book

921
00:47:35,373 --> 00:47:35,373
.

922
00:47:35,373 --> 00:47:38,902
So the Overstory, by Richard
Powers, I believe, is the author

923
00:47:38,902 --> 00:47:43,780
Very, very deep reflection on
just the interconnectedness of

924
00:47:44,021 --> 00:47:44,362
everything.

925
00:47:46,451 --> 00:47:46,710
Speaker 1: Awesome.

926
00:47:46,710 --> 00:47:48,253
All right, Gaurav.

927
00:47:48,253 --> 00:47:50,679
Who should we be listening to?

928
00:47:51,340 --> 00:47:52,681
Speaker 2: Who should we be
listening to?

929
00:47:52,681 --> 00:47:59,418
You should be listening to me.

930
00:47:59,418 --> 00:48:05,373
No, I think this is a crazy
answer, but I would strongly

931
00:48:05,434 --> 00:48:05,855
encourage.

932
00:48:05,855 --> 00:48:11,422
If people really want to get
some deep reflection going, is

933
00:48:11,461 --> 00:48:15,438
this gentleman called Swami
Bodhananda and he is based out

934
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:21,072
of Kalamazoo, michigan, and he
has some great videos on YouTube

935
00:48:21,072 --> 00:48:26,639
about the essence of life and
about what does it mean to live

936
00:48:26,710 --> 00:48:27,635
a wholehearted life.

937
00:48:30,172 --> 00:48:32,559
Speaker 1: Swami, how do you say
that?

938
00:48:33,750 --> 00:48:38,039
Speaker 2: Bodha Nanda, which is
B-O-D-H-A-N-A-D-A.

939
00:48:40,592 --> 00:48:43,733
Speaker 3: And I have heard him
speak as well and he is pretty

940
00:48:43,773 --> 00:48:45,500
amazing and very thought
provoking.

941
00:48:45,909 --> 00:48:48,056
Speaker 1: That is probably a
first that we've had somebody

942
00:48:49,119 --> 00:48:53,079
like that recommend it, so thank
you for expanding our thought

943
00:48:53,099 --> 00:48:53,800
process a little bit.

944
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:56,969
All right, last question, I'll
pitch this to both of you how

945
00:48:57,010 --> 00:48:58,313
can our listeners connect with
you?

946
00:48:59,235 --> 00:49:00,117
Speaker 3: Yeah, really easy.

947
00:49:00,117 --> 00:49:01,641
Cocreationpartnerscom.

948
00:49:01,641 --> 00:49:05,036
No dashes, Just one word
CoCreationPartnerscom.

949
00:49:05,036 --> 00:49:09,000
And if you're interested in the
book and some of these ideas,

950
00:49:09,230 --> 00:49:12,380
you can go to unfearbookcom as
well to learn some more.

951
00:49:13,369 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I am really
happy if people want to reach

952
00:49:17,539 --> 00:49:18,822
out to me on LinkedIn as well.

953
00:49:18,822 --> 00:49:24,980
I will respond because I do
believe that conversation is the

954
00:49:24,980 --> 00:49:25,822
way to move forward.

955
00:49:27,264 --> 00:49:30,135
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and we
will have all that information

956
00:49:30,157 --> 00:49:30,778
in the show notes.

957
00:49:30,778 --> 00:49:33,056
So open up your podcast player,
click in.

958
00:49:33,056 --> 00:49:34,300
Check out the book.

959
00:49:34,300 --> 00:49:36,438
Like I've said a couple of
times, highly recommended

960
00:49:36,478 --> 00:49:36,798
reading.

961
00:49:36,798 --> 00:49:40,246
Just want to thank you both
again for being so generous with

962
00:49:40,246 --> 00:49:42,557
your time and for putting the
book together.

963
00:49:42,557 --> 00:49:47,280
Really great work and, I think,
really helpful for me and Molly

964
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:47,280
.

965
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:53,278
So thank you so much thanks for
having us take care alright,

966
00:49:53,318 --> 00:49:55,708
that does it for the Rebel HR
podcast.

967
00:49:55,708 --> 00:49:58,059
Big thank you to our guests.

968
00:49:58,059 --> 00:50:03,418
Follow us on Facebook at Rebel
HR podcast, twitter at Rebel HR

969
00:50:03,438 --> 00:50:06,775
guy, or see our website at
rebelhumanresourcescom.

970
00:50:06,775 --> 00:50:08,300
The views and opinions
expressed by Rebel HR podcast

971
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:10,226
are those of the authors and do
not at RebelHRGuy, or see our

972
00:50:10,246 --> 00:50:10,929
website at
RebelHumanResourcescom.

973
00:50:10,929 --> 00:50:12,713
The views and opinions
expressed by RebelHR Podcast are

974
00:50:12,713 --> 00:50:14,217
those of the authors and do not
necessarily reflect the

975
00:50:14,237 --> 00:50:16,661
official policy or position of
any of the organizations that we

976
00:50:16,661 --> 00:50:17,023
represent.

977
00:50:17,023 --> 00:50:20,596
No animals were harmed during
the filming of this podcast.

978
00:50:22,581 --> 00:50:22,900
Speaker 4: Baby.