1 00:00:03,024 --> 00:00:06,049 Speaker 1: This is the Rebel HR podcast, the podcast about all 2 00:00:06,149 --> 00:00:08,151 things innovation in the people's space. 3 00:00:08,151 --> 00:00:09,614 I'm Kyle Rode. 4 00:00:09,614 --> 00:00:10,595 Let's start the show. 5 00:00:10,595 --> 00:00:16,522 Welcome back, rebel HR community. 6 00:00:16,522 --> 00:00:19,486 We are going to have a fun conversation today With us. 7 00:00:19,486 --> 00:00:21,248 We have an amazing guest, chris Lipp. 8 00:00:21,248 --> 00:00:25,195 He is a professor at Tulane University and author of the 9 00:00:25,254 --> 00:00:29,187 book that is available now where books are sold the Science of 10 00:00:29,286 --> 00:00:30,149 Personal Power. 11 00:00:30,149 --> 00:00:32,473 Chris, welcome to the podcast, thank you. 12 00:00:32,473 --> 00:00:36,426 Well, I'm really excited to talk about this topic and I 13 00:00:36,506 --> 00:00:40,743 think that there's going to be a lot of great insight that you 14 00:00:40,804 --> 00:00:42,209 can share with our audience. 15 00:00:42,209 --> 00:00:44,457 So excited for the conversation today. 16 00:00:44,457 --> 00:00:48,106 My first question for you that I'd like to understand is what 17 00:00:48,226 --> 00:00:52,103 motivated you to write a book about the science of personal 18 00:00:52,182 --> 00:00:52,584 power? 19 00:00:53,506 --> 00:00:55,951 Speaker 2: I think all of us in business, particularly in 20 00:00:55,991 --> 00:00:58,505 organizations, we sometimes struggle with a sense of 21 00:00:58,585 --> 00:01:01,820 identity or that when we're part of something larger, but also 22 00:01:01,841 --> 00:01:03,325 it's still our lives that we're living. 23 00:01:03,325 --> 00:01:08,236 And at first, you know, I was concerned about my voice being 24 00:01:08,277 --> 00:01:09,118 heard in this environment. 25 00:01:09,118 --> 00:01:10,441 Right, how do I stand out? 26 00:01:10,441 --> 00:01:13,569 How can I actually have a place to stand on that's not standing 27 00:01:13,569 --> 00:01:19,513 on sort of a shaky bridge of other people's opinions, and I 28 00:01:19,552 --> 00:01:22,722 believed that the way to deal with that was really to kind of 29 00:01:22,763 --> 00:01:24,769 be able to influence other people's opinions. 30 00:01:24,769 --> 00:01:31,001 So I wrote a few books on persuasion. 31 00:01:31,022 --> 00:01:32,546 Really, I thought communication was the key, which it is one of 32 00:01:32,566 --> 00:01:33,046 the most important keys. 33 00:01:33,046 --> 00:01:35,552 But even with great persuasion, I began to understand, or at 34 00:01:35,572 --> 00:01:37,828 least be able to see this dynamic that was happening 35 00:01:38,248 --> 00:01:41,361 underneath the conversation, which now I know the words, you 36 00:01:41,382 --> 00:01:44,271 know ultimately is the power dynamic that's happening, and we 37 00:01:44,271 --> 00:01:46,498 feel it when we walk into a room with our executive 38 00:01:46,519 --> 00:01:46,819 management. 39 00:01:46,819 --> 00:01:50,140 We might feel small, we might feel intimidated or fearful, we 40 00:01:50,159 --> 00:01:53,549 might feel like we're overly people pleasing and, you know, 41 00:01:53,629 --> 00:01:54,971 basically giving our power away. 42 00:01:54,971 --> 00:01:57,984 And other times, though, we walk into these environments and 43 00:01:57,984 --> 00:02:00,590 we feel confident, we feel strong, we voice our opinions, 44 00:02:00,950 --> 00:02:03,426 everybody listens to us, things are working the direction we 45 00:02:03,465 --> 00:02:10,002 want it, and all of that is personal power, and so I spent 46 00:02:10,022 --> 00:02:10,183 the last. 47 00:02:10,183 --> 00:02:10,685 I think it was six. 48 00:02:10,685 --> 00:02:11,787 It's been about six years now that I've been really 49 00:02:11,806 --> 00:02:12,068 researching. 50 00:02:12,068 --> 00:02:13,771 This combined all the research that I did from the last 20 51 00:02:13,812 --> 00:02:15,741 years into the book, the Science of Personal Power. 52 00:02:17,783 --> 00:02:23,449 Speaker 1: So I love the topic because and I think as a 53 00:02:23,530 --> 00:02:29,276 recovering people pleaser it definitely resonates with me 54 00:02:29,395 --> 00:02:46,382 personally struggle with that, you know, that aspect with kind 55 00:02:46,401 --> 00:02:48,145 of the retention of their own personal power and agency and 56 00:02:48,246 --> 00:02:52,593 and and balancing the demands of being kind of a people person, 57 00:02:52,819 --> 00:02:56,991 right or or or a leader of people or or, you know, an 58 00:02:57,151 --> 00:02:57,753 influencer. 59 00:02:57,753 --> 00:03:02,705 So so, as you were writing this book and and kind of you know, 60 00:03:02,846 --> 00:03:07,014 doing doing your research on persuasion and ultimately power, 61 00:03:07,014 --> 00:03:14,155 what I guess advice or tips or tricks would you tell somebody 62 00:03:14,194 --> 00:03:19,987 who is kind of a natural people pleaser on how to kind of retain 63 00:03:19,987 --> 00:03:22,293 your power and not give it away ? 64 00:03:22,293 --> 00:03:28,044 I loved the bridge of other people's opinions as kind of an 65 00:03:28,104 --> 00:03:28,604 image there. 66 00:03:28,604 --> 00:03:30,570 I'm curious what advice you would have for us. 67 00:03:32,820 --> 00:03:34,887 Speaker 2: One of the challenges I think a lot of us face is we 68 00:03:35,007 --> 00:03:35,609 like people. 69 00:03:35,609 --> 00:03:37,341 I mean, we're people, people right. 70 00:03:37,341 --> 00:03:41,009 And it's in my own life that my highest value is really the 71 00:03:41,330 --> 00:03:43,024 people in my life, right, my relationships. 72 00:03:43,024 --> 00:03:47,543 And what happens is sometimes we get that confused with being 73 00:03:47,643 --> 00:03:50,290 nice or being kind of people-pleasing, right, 74 00:03:50,641 --> 00:03:52,842 people-pleasing kind of has a negative connotation precisely 75 00:03:52,861 --> 00:03:55,200 because we can sense that we're giving our power away, even as 76 00:03:55,241 --> 00:03:56,888 we're being nice to so-and-so persons. 77 00:04:02,562 --> 00:04:03,473 Speaker 1: This is going to be edited. 78 00:04:03,473 --> 00:04:08,151 I assume right my brain just blanked, you're good man, it's, 79 00:04:08,460 --> 00:04:08,860 it's all good. 80 00:04:11,686 --> 00:04:15,451 Speaker 2: One of the benefits of personal power is that we 81 00:04:15,512 --> 00:04:18,163 don't have to give our power away in order to help other 82 00:04:18,204 --> 00:04:19,125 people feel empowered. 83 00:04:19,125 --> 00:04:21,071 In fact, this is, you know, people pleasing. 84 00:04:21,071 --> 00:04:23,182 There's this sense that, yeah, we are giving something of 85 00:04:23,264 --> 00:04:26,288 ourselves away in the process of pushing others up. 86 00:04:26,288 --> 00:04:31,045 But real personal power, real personal power, as we stand in 87 00:04:31,105 --> 00:04:33,653 our power, others around us get empowered. 88 00:04:33,653 --> 00:04:35,822 And so, you know, we see this with great leaders. 89 00:04:35,822 --> 00:04:38,634 I mean, there's a lot of talk about in the nation. 90 00:04:38,653 --> 00:04:42,163 I'm going to go see Alexander Hamilton the musical soon again, 91 00:04:42,163 --> 00:04:43,906 and you know it's all about. 92 00:04:43,906 --> 00:04:46,089 There's George Washington and all this stuff, and you know, 93 00:04:46,110 --> 00:04:48,353 you think about George Washington as a leader, and 94 00:04:48,533 --> 00:04:52,649 here's a, here's a man that we associate with super strong 95 00:04:52,689 --> 00:04:56,000 power, but at the same time, he's empowering other people 96 00:04:56,100 --> 00:04:59,127 around him, you know, and they're creating a nation, and 97 00:04:59,166 --> 00:05:03,630 so personal power is something that is that rubs off on other 98 00:05:03,670 --> 00:05:05,942 people too, but it's not people pleasing. 99 00:05:05,942 --> 00:05:08,976 It's a certain way of being, it's a certain way of and we'll 100 00:05:08,997 --> 00:05:09,156 talk. 101 00:05:09,156 --> 00:05:10,762 I'm sure you're going to ask questions about this, but I'm 102 00:05:10,783 --> 00:05:11,526 happy to discuss. 103 00:05:11,526 --> 00:05:13,521 You know what, what, where does that really come from? 104 00:05:13,521 --> 00:05:14,444 How does that show up? 105 00:05:15,365 --> 00:05:18,252 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, I think it's, it's a fascinating. 106 00:05:18,252 --> 00:05:21,422 It's a fascinating topic because I think many of us 107 00:05:21,442 --> 00:05:30,129 certainly certainly if we were raised to be humble or not brag 108 00:05:30,149 --> 00:05:36,754 too much or not cause too many waves we really struggle with 109 00:05:36,774 --> 00:05:40,177 this idea of personal power because it almost feels like 110 00:05:40,357 --> 00:05:40,877 aggressive. 111 00:05:40,877 --> 00:05:45,011 Even the term power there, you know it's, there's, there's 112 00:05:45,500 --> 00:05:46,663 associated aggression there. 113 00:05:46,663 --> 00:05:50,512 But you know, what I'm hearing you say is that it's not about. 114 00:05:50,512 --> 00:05:56,617 It's not about like a a win, I win, you lose, kind of a thing 115 00:05:56,637 --> 00:05:58,100 you know you're you're talking about. 116 00:05:58,100 --> 00:06:00,026 You're talking about something that kind of. 117 00:06:00,026 --> 00:06:06,209 You know it is about elevating everybody's power and and my 118 00:06:06,249 --> 00:06:09,225 assumption is that the research proves out that if everybody 119 00:06:09,286 --> 00:06:12,442 feels empowered and everybody feels that they can kind of have 120 00:06:12,442 --> 00:06:16,389 their own voice and retain their, their, their own personal 121 00:06:16,389 --> 00:06:22,048 power, then you find much more success in whatever endeavors 122 00:06:22,088 --> 00:06:23,331 you're you're approaching right. 123 00:06:23,331 --> 00:06:28,423 So help me unpack a little bit the difference between what our 124 00:06:28,485 --> 00:06:32,865 common definition of power is versus what you're talking about 125 00:06:32,865 --> 00:06:36,427 here, which I think they're slightly kind of different 126 00:06:36,447 --> 00:06:37,009 definitions. 127 00:06:37,490 --> 00:06:38,642 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know what the first thing to 128 00:06:38,682 --> 00:06:39,185 understand is. 129 00:06:39,185 --> 00:06:41,187 I'm not talking about soft, fuzzy power either. 130 00:06:41,187 --> 00:06:44,764 I'm not talking about community power and what we generally 131 00:06:44,783 --> 00:06:47,389 associate with empowerment, with these sort of empathic 132 00:06:47,408 --> 00:06:47,810 leadership. 133 00:06:47,810 --> 00:06:48,812 So there's this. 134 00:06:48,812 --> 00:06:53,334 I think what I call it is like a false dichotomy in society 135 00:06:53,375 --> 00:06:53,576 today. 136 00:06:53,576 --> 00:06:57,165 You're either an alpha dominator or you're this 137 00:06:57,245 --> 00:06:58,887 empathic, connected leader. 138 00:06:58,887 --> 00:07:01,692 And so you know. 139 00:07:01,692 --> 00:07:05,367 And the truth is you know, we've seen both types of leaders 140 00:07:05,367 --> 00:07:05,848 succeed. 141 00:07:05,848 --> 00:07:08,348 We've seen both types of leaders be respected. 142 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:11,341 In fact, bill Gates is commonly thought of as a dominator and if 143 00:07:11,341 --> 00:07:13,848 you look at the history of himself in Microsoft, you know 144 00:07:13,869 --> 00:07:16,644 he was super dominant and he would shout people down and he 145 00:07:16,685 --> 00:07:18,089 would insult them when they gave bad ideas. 146 00:07:18,089 --> 00:07:21,843 And his employees loved him and they said that it brought out 147 00:07:21,863 --> 00:07:23,048 the best in them Right. 148 00:07:23,048 --> 00:07:30,084 But other times you get other people, like Harvey Weinstein, 149 00:07:30,105 --> 00:07:31,370 who's like the anathema of a leader, right, and you could 150 00:07:31,391 --> 00:07:32,776 argue he's we would put the same label like a dominator on him, 151 00:07:32,797 --> 00:07:33,439 and yet everybody hates him. 152 00:07:33,439 --> 00:07:35,023 And so you know it's not. 153 00:07:35,023 --> 00:07:39,050 It's not the dominance at all, just as it's not the empathy at 154 00:07:39,190 --> 00:07:39,932 all these. 155 00:07:39,932 --> 00:07:43,245 In fact, if you look at research on status and also 156 00:07:43,286 --> 00:07:47,581 personal power, they did a lot of personality research and one 157 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:50,225 of them looked at the big five, and one of the big five traits 158 00:07:50,286 --> 00:07:53,052 is agreeableness, like how people-friendly are you and 159 00:07:53,072 --> 00:07:53,413 these things. 160 00:07:53,413 --> 00:07:57,168 And what the research found is that there is zero correlation 161 00:07:57,228 --> 00:08:01,119 to agreeableness, meaning that it doesn't matter how warm and 162 00:08:01,158 --> 00:08:01,639 friendly you are. 163 00:08:01,639 --> 00:08:03,461 That's not where your power comes from, that's not where 164 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:04,985 other people's gets empowered from. 165 00:08:04,985 --> 00:08:07,932 Mind you, it wasn't a negative correlation. 166 00:08:07,932 --> 00:08:09,504 If it was a negative correlation, then coldness would 167 00:08:09,504 --> 00:08:12,021 have been powerful, but it wasn't coldness or kindness, it 168 00:08:12,062 --> 00:08:13,245 was that was irrelevant. 169 00:08:13,245 --> 00:08:14,889 It was, it was deeper than that . 170 00:08:15,610 --> 00:08:16,333 So what's an example? 171 00:08:16,333 --> 00:08:19,305 People who are in their personal power. 172 00:08:19,305 --> 00:08:21,930 They have a sense of control over their environment, so 173 00:08:21,951 --> 00:08:24,533 they're more apt to take responsibility, like they 174 00:08:24,552 --> 00:08:27,595 literally experienced that they always see an outlet for them to 175 00:08:27,595 --> 00:08:29,175 influence the environment in which they're in. 176 00:08:29,175 --> 00:08:32,278 So, for example, in voting, voters who feel powerless 177 00:08:32,477 --> 00:08:33,441 believe their vote doesn't count . 178 00:08:33,441 --> 00:08:36,232 Oh, I'm just one of 400 million , basically Right, but an 179 00:08:36,274 --> 00:08:38,523 empowered person will think my vote counts, like. 180 00:08:38,523 --> 00:08:39,687 It's that sense of like. 181 00:08:39,687 --> 00:08:43,402 I see that my actions have an impact on the environment and as 182 00:08:43,402 --> 00:08:46,509 a result of that conclusion or that perspective, people then 183 00:08:46,750 --> 00:08:48,235 automatically take responsibility. 184 00:08:48,235 --> 00:08:51,125 And I put in a few examples of some very famous people, like 185 00:08:51,546 --> 00:08:52,048 Bob Iger. 186 00:08:52,048 --> 00:08:54,235 How did he become the CEO of Disney? 187 00:08:54,235 --> 00:08:56,666 He was taking responsibility even for the failures. 188 00:08:57,168 --> 00:09:00,320 It's our modus operandum to say, hey, yeah, I'll associate with 189 00:09:00,340 --> 00:09:01,982 wins, but I'll distance myself from failures. 190 00:09:01,982 --> 00:09:04,969 But in that distancing of our failures, we're communicating to 191 00:09:04,969 --> 00:09:07,192 ourselves and to everybody else that we're powerless. 192 00:09:07,192 --> 00:09:08,321 Right, that's what blame is Like. 193 00:09:08,321 --> 00:09:11,094 I didn't do it, I wasn't under my control, somebody else did it 194 00:09:11,094 --> 00:09:11,094 . 195 00:09:11,094 --> 00:09:13,302 It's literally the worst thing you can tell others, because 196 00:09:13,323 --> 00:09:14,125 they'll respect you less. 197 00:09:14,125 --> 00:09:16,100 And it's the worst thing you can tell yourself, because 198 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:20,729 you're saying I didn't have an option of control, okay, so why 199 00:09:21,450 --> 00:09:22,753 put this in an even bigger picture? 200 00:09:22,753 --> 00:09:22,913 Right? 201 00:09:22,932 --> 00:09:25,979 So people who are personally empowered take responsibility 202 00:09:26,038 --> 00:09:28,884 for their environment and, as a result of taking responsibility, 203 00:09:28,884 --> 00:09:34,453 they then feel like, hey, I have impact over my environment. 204 00:09:34,453 --> 00:09:36,823 In fact, the definition we should have started with this 205 00:09:37,284 --> 00:09:40,711 the definition of personal power is our belief in our own 206 00:09:40,811 --> 00:09:42,254 capability to create impact. 207 00:09:42,254 --> 00:09:44,029 Our belief in our own capability to create impact. 208 00:09:44,029 --> 00:09:45,581 So, belief in our own capability to create impact, so 209 00:09:45,621 --> 00:09:46,745 it's a personal belief we have. 210 00:09:46,745 --> 00:09:49,683 That's why it's not competitive , but it's a belief that's 211 00:09:49,745 --> 00:09:53,287 unconscious and and we can't just like, affirm it into 212 00:09:53,327 --> 00:09:53,808 existence. 213 00:09:53,889 --> 00:09:54,210 It doesn't. 214 00:09:54,210 --> 00:09:55,926 The unconscious doesn't work that way. 215 00:09:55,926 --> 00:10:01,033 The unconscious is watching our , our, our behavior, and so when 216 00:10:01,033 --> 00:10:04,347 we, when we take responsibility , we begin to communicate to our 217 00:10:04,347 --> 00:10:04,808 subconscious. 218 00:10:04,808 --> 00:10:18,303 Oh, so, when we take responsibility, we begin to 219 00:10:18,323 --> 00:10:19,024 communicate to our subconscious. 220 00:10:19,024 --> 00:10:19,706 Oh, I have power over this. 221 00:10:19,706 --> 00:10:20,726 And so we see outlets of actual power. 222 00:10:20,726 --> 00:10:22,610 And now what's interesting is because people who are 223 00:10:22,649 --> 00:10:25,134 personally powerful won't let them get away with that blame. 224 00:10:25,134 --> 00:10:26,556 They'll hold those people accountable. 225 00:10:26,556 --> 00:10:30,604 So holding others accountable is a natural result of also 226 00:10:30,644 --> 00:10:33,570 being empowered, and when you hold others accountable, you 227 00:10:33,649 --> 00:10:36,443 break their illusion that they're powerless, right? 228 00:10:36,443 --> 00:10:38,490 So it's really uncomfortable to be held accountable, but it's 229 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:42,048 also very empowering to be held accountable, because at once you 230 00:10:42,048 --> 00:10:45,426 have to face your own, whatever you did wrong, but at the 231 00:10:45,485 --> 00:10:48,225 second time you also are forced to confront the fact that you 232 00:10:48,307 --> 00:10:54,392 actually can do something about it that's fascinating, um, you 233 00:10:54,412 --> 00:10:54,692 know it's. 234 00:10:54,832 --> 00:10:57,519 Speaker 1: It's interesting too because I, I do think certainly, 235 00:10:57,519 --> 00:11:02,086 I would say certainly, earlier in my career I fell into this 236 00:11:02,167 --> 00:11:06,274 trap of like the kind of the likability thing and like being 237 00:11:06,354 --> 00:11:07,681 warm, right, and like that's. 238 00:11:07,681 --> 00:11:13,148 You know, I think I, you know, in my, in my youth, I must took 239 00:11:13,207 --> 00:11:16,913 that for like being able to be, to build like effective 240 00:11:16,932 --> 00:11:20,302 relationships we all do, right, you know, because it's like, oh, 241 00:11:20,302 --> 00:11:22,783 that's what I'm supposed to act , this way, I'm supposed to be 242 00:11:22,845 --> 00:11:26,787 like, you know, a certain way for people to like me and that's 243 00:11:26,787 --> 00:11:30,480 going to actually give me some level of like relational power. 244 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:35,250 But the reality is like, like it, it's so much deeper than 245 00:11:35,311 --> 00:11:38,081 that and if it's hollow, people will figure it out, right, it's 246 00:11:38,121 --> 00:11:41,285 almost like I'm almost the opposite end of the spectrum now 247 00:11:41,285 --> 00:11:43,048 , where I'm kind of like, eh, take it or leave it, I don't 248 00:11:43,068 --> 00:11:45,131 really care, but I'm going to, you know, kind of retain my own 249 00:11:45,152 --> 00:11:49,263 integrity and, and you know, I, you know, and in general, that's 250 00:11:49,263 --> 00:11:53,711 , that's worked out for me, um, but it's, but it's also caused 251 00:11:53,751 --> 00:11:58,644 more conflict, right, and, and you know, I think, where I 252 00:11:58,703 --> 00:12:02,548 probably would have gone, gone with the flow, or, or, you know, 253 00:12:02,548 --> 00:12:05,171 been been Mr Nice Guy or not said anything. 254 00:12:05,171 --> 00:12:07,533 Now I would kind of raise my hand and say, well, wait a 255 00:12:07,573 --> 00:12:08,153 minute time out. 256 00:12:08,153 --> 00:12:09,995 This doesn't seem right to me. 257 00:12:09,995 --> 00:12:15,288 I think we need to go think about this decision a little 258 00:12:15,307 --> 00:12:15,549 differently. 259 00:12:15,570 --> 00:12:19,447 Or I think you've got the read wrong here and we're operating 260 00:12:19,506 --> 00:12:24,928 off assumption versus fact, or whatever the scenario is, and in 261 00:12:24,928 --> 00:12:28,183 general people might be pissed initially but ultimately realize 262 00:12:28,183 --> 00:12:29,869 , oh it's, this was a good thing . 263 00:12:29,869 --> 00:12:34,181 And so I want to talk about this a little bit, because I 264 00:12:34,221 --> 00:12:39,311 think I, I think this is this is not distinctly a male, female 265 00:12:39,370 --> 00:12:39,711 thing. 266 00:12:39,711 --> 00:12:45,168 But I think a lot of times we get into this like this nice and 267 00:12:45,168 --> 00:12:47,513 you hear the term nice guys finish last. 268 00:12:47,513 --> 00:12:49,726 But I think it's broader than that. 269 00:12:49,726 --> 00:12:53,469 I think it's like a societal, cultural thing where sometimes 270 00:12:53,529 --> 00:12:54,572 nice people get trampled on. 271 00:12:54,572 --> 00:12:59,686 So how can we, in the context of what we're talking about here 272 00:12:59,686 --> 00:13:03,130 , this personal power, how can we kind of spot that, be aware 273 00:13:03,171 --> 00:13:06,780 of that and for ourselves, make sure that we're not falling into 274 00:13:06,780 --> 00:13:10,048 this trap of being so agreeable that people trample all over? 275 00:13:10,107 --> 00:13:10,187 Speaker 2: us. 276 00:13:10,187 --> 00:13:14,307 It's both genders right, it's nice guys finish last. 277 00:13:14,307 --> 00:13:16,496 But of course, there's this whole myth of leading with 278 00:13:16,538 --> 00:13:20,788 likability and the pressure that women face to be balancing both 279 00:13:20,788 --> 00:13:23,620 assertion with being nice, essentially right. 280 00:13:23,620 --> 00:13:26,748 And again, I just want to point out the research in both 281 00:13:26,807 --> 00:13:29,980 personal power and status status being your position, informal 282 00:13:30,022 --> 00:13:33,510 position within a hierarchy, the hierarchy of respect, that 283 00:13:33,630 --> 00:13:36,505 agreeableness, being nice, has zero correlation, like it 284 00:13:36,625 --> 00:13:39,152 literally does not matter how, not how cold or kind you are. 285 00:13:39,152 --> 00:13:42,769 That's not the factor by which people are evaluating you, even 286 00:13:42,809 --> 00:13:45,980 though we tend to see it that way because we can't see deeper. 287 00:13:45,980 --> 00:13:47,964 And this is where the research has really helped. 288 00:13:48,806 --> 00:13:54,081 So, when we look at this dynamic , I think that if you were to 289 00:13:54,121 --> 00:13:56,808 separate a powerful person from a powerless person, if I were 290 00:13:56,830 --> 00:13:59,624 just to simplify it in like the most basic definition 291 00:13:59,705 --> 00:14:02,851 oversimplification maybe it would be that powerful people 292 00:14:02,892 --> 00:14:04,404 are focused on their own goals. 293 00:14:04,404 --> 00:14:10,904 Powerless people are focused on the opinions of others. 294 00:14:10,904 --> 00:14:11,950 So powerless people are focused on their own goals. 295 00:14:11,950 --> 00:14:13,095 Powerless people really essentially want to be liked by 296 00:14:13,115 --> 00:14:13,275 others. 297 00:14:13,275 --> 00:14:16,205 They care about the evaluation of others and, as a result of 298 00:14:16,245 --> 00:14:20,019 caring about that evaluation, we bury our opinions right. 299 00:14:20,019 --> 00:14:25,052 Sometimes we be nice, we roll over, sometimes we'd even get 300 00:14:25,091 --> 00:14:25,452 defensive. 301 00:14:25,452 --> 00:14:30,224 When we react and we lash out at people, that's also showing 302 00:14:30,264 --> 00:14:30,846 insecurity. 303 00:14:30,846 --> 00:14:33,787 Sometimes we're getting defensive because we care about 304 00:14:33,807 --> 00:14:34,328 their opinion. 305 00:14:34,328 --> 00:14:37,850 If we didn't care, it wouldn't even bother us. 306 00:14:37,850 --> 00:14:40,128 Whatever it's like having a dog bark at us. 307 00:14:40,128 --> 00:14:47,832 There's a lot of ways we react, but anyway, I think that's 308 00:14:47,972 --> 00:14:51,597 important to keep in mind is for people like you and me, who 309 00:14:51,638 --> 00:14:56,065 care about others and care about our team, that value is our 310 00:14:56,125 --> 00:14:59,754 goal, that's our value, and so we know when it's coming from 311 00:14:59,774 --> 00:15:01,860 the inside out versus when we're doing it out of fear. 312 00:15:02,571 --> 00:15:05,880 Fear is really the ultimate driver of a people pleaser. 313 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:09,933 We use that word negatively and we use that word negatively. 314 00:15:09,933 --> 00:15:14,258 And so if we're afraid of what others think about us, if we're 315 00:15:14,317 --> 00:15:17,581 insecure, we're going to act in a way that we're telling 316 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:19,623 ourselves we're being nice and we're telling ourselves we're 317 00:15:19,643 --> 00:15:21,524 being people, people, people, persons. 318 00:15:21,524 --> 00:15:22,346 But we're really not. 319 00:15:22,346 --> 00:15:23,687 We're really not. 320 00:15:23,687 --> 00:15:25,067 We're manipulating. 321 00:15:25,067 --> 00:15:28,672 Maybe you could even say in context and can you imagine 322 00:15:28,711 --> 00:15:32,254 being in a relationship with a spouse, for example, who likes 323 00:15:32,294 --> 00:15:37,480 you because they're afraid of you or because they care about 324 00:15:38,981 --> 00:15:42,605 your opinion in an insecure way, versus a spouse that loves you 325 00:15:42,645 --> 00:15:44,431 because they're coming from their heart and they're just 326 00:15:44,530 --> 00:15:46,635 expressing their love for you. 327 00:15:46,635 --> 00:15:48,961 It's so obvious in relationships that we want the 328 00:15:49,001 --> 00:15:51,677 type of people who come from the inside out, not from the 329 00:15:51,778 --> 00:15:54,378 outside in, and that's and that's really the big difference 330 00:15:54,378 --> 00:15:57,993 between being a likable person, being somebody who values 331 00:15:58,394 --> 00:15:58,615 others. 332 00:16:01,350 --> 00:16:06,350 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's it's, it's, it's fascinating and 333 00:16:06,350 --> 00:16:08,912 I think some of it's just, you know, kind of growing up and 334 00:16:09,152 --> 00:16:11,833 becoming more mature, that you know. 335 00:16:11,833 --> 00:16:16,918 I think you start off with this assumption that people who 336 00:16:16,958 --> 00:16:24,884 appear to be, you know, accomplished but are hollow, are 337 00:16:24,884 --> 00:16:28,147 kind of aspirational people to be like. 338 00:16:28,147 --> 00:16:30,918 And then the older you get, you're like oh, there's nothing 339 00:16:30,937 --> 00:16:31,500 behind the curtain. 340 00:16:31,500 --> 00:16:32,936 You know, it's almost like the Wizard of Oz. 341 00:16:32,936 --> 00:16:35,413 Now I'm in a wicked you know thing because my girls are like 342 00:16:35,433 --> 00:16:35,916 singing wicked. 343 00:16:35,916 --> 00:16:39,423 It's like the Wizard of Oz, right, it's like I've got this 344 00:16:39,745 --> 00:16:41,956 all powerful wizard and it's just some dude that's just 345 00:16:41,995 --> 00:16:44,633 trying to, you know, just trying to fake it until he makes it 346 00:16:44,693 --> 00:16:47,177 and it all comes crashing down. 347 00:16:47,638 --> 00:16:48,438 Speaker 2: And you know what's fascinating. 348 00:16:48,438 --> 00:16:50,903 I just want to add, you know, like you mentioned, like okay, 349 00:16:50,923 --> 00:16:52,205 well then, what can we do about this? 350 00:16:52,205 --> 00:16:54,614 Right, this is, you're absolutely right, and it is 351 00:16:54,693 --> 00:16:57,996 hollow, and here's what we can do about it. 352 00:16:57,996 --> 00:16:59,081 We're afraid. 353 00:16:59,081 --> 00:17:00,975 Everybody wants to be part of a group. 354 00:17:00,975 --> 00:17:06,280 We're afraid sometimes to stand up for what we believe and we 355 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:07,123 want to be likable. 356 00:17:07,123 --> 00:17:13,172 We're because we think we're actually going to. 357 00:17:13,172 --> 00:17:14,934 If we're not liked, things are going to go sideways or bad for 358 00:17:15,036 --> 00:17:15,576 us or whatever. 359 00:17:16,498 --> 00:17:20,073 The research is super clear when you come in with boundaries 360 00:17:20,093 --> 00:17:21,903 everybody knows that's important to have boundaries, but when 361 00:17:21,923 --> 00:17:25,174 you come in with boundaries, people respect you more and the 362 00:17:25,194 --> 00:17:26,999 relationship actually becomes healthier. 363 00:17:26,999 --> 00:17:30,071 So we could you know, we could always talk about boundaries 364 00:17:30,112 --> 00:17:32,016 more, but I think that's something that people keep in 365 00:17:32,056 --> 00:17:35,762 mind is it's again, it's not about likability or dominance. 366 00:17:35,762 --> 00:17:38,378 It's about certain deeper behaviors, and one of those 367 00:17:38,398 --> 00:17:41,330 behaviors is the self-respect that when you put up your 368 00:17:41,371 --> 00:17:43,236 boundaries, people might get upset when they run your 369 00:17:43,256 --> 00:17:45,592 boundaries, but but then they're going to respect you more and 370 00:17:45,612 --> 00:17:50,662 the relationship is going to get actually stronger yeah so 371 00:17:50,682 --> 00:17:54,169 nothing it's it's, it's an interesting, it's like an 372 00:17:54,229 --> 00:17:58,278 interesting reframing of of all of this. 373 00:17:58,337 --> 00:18:00,461 Speaker 1: I I want to circle back to something you said, 374 00:18:00,602 --> 00:18:05,756 because I think, I think you hear a lot about like 375 00:18:06,757 --> 00:18:11,523 manifesting and you know, know, like, like like giving yourself 376 00:18:11,584 --> 00:18:14,152 a pep talk or like telling yourself you know, I've got 377 00:18:14,211 --> 00:18:16,458 power, I'm powerful, I can do this, you know. 378 00:18:16,458 --> 00:18:19,295 Or like say it in front of the mirror and and you know you 379 00:18:19,335 --> 00:18:22,041 mentioned, you can't just affirm it into existence, right, it's, 380 00:18:22,041 --> 00:18:26,500 it's really behavioral and I, and I think but I do think, a 381 00:18:26,539 --> 00:18:35,690 lot of it comes down to to mindset. 382 00:18:35,690 --> 00:18:38,414 So, you know, for those of us that are maybe trying to drive 383 00:18:38,976 --> 00:18:42,321 some changes or maybe we are doing work with therapy or 384 00:18:42,362 --> 00:18:45,957 meditation and that sort of thing, how should we be thinking 385 00:18:45,957 --> 00:18:46,298 about this? 386 00:18:46,298 --> 00:18:49,250 As opposed to just like repeating affirmations and 387 00:18:49,310 --> 00:18:50,316 hoping for the best? 388 00:18:50,316 --> 00:18:54,734 What are some steps that we can actually start to take to kind 389 00:18:54,775 --> 00:18:58,403 of reframe how we think about our own personal power and 390 00:18:58,931 --> 00:19:05,083 likability versus actually, you know, being a personally 391 00:19:05,123 --> 00:19:05,804 powerful person? 392 00:19:07,329 --> 00:19:07,993 Speaker 2: You mentioned mindset . 393 00:19:07,993 --> 00:19:09,140 Well, mindset, you're absolutely right. 394 00:19:09,140 --> 00:19:13,236 Mindset is the crucial factor in personal power, and often, 395 00:19:13,276 --> 00:19:14,901 though, what people are affirming is their affirming 396 00:19:14,941 --> 00:19:17,234 capability, and that doesn't necessarily work If you're out 397 00:19:17,255 --> 00:19:17,737 of your power. 398 00:19:17,737 --> 00:19:19,452 Research suggests you're out of your power and your affirm 399 00:19:19,472 --> 00:19:22,909 capability has no impact because you don't take yourself 400 00:19:22,929 --> 00:19:23,210 seriously. 401 00:19:23,210 --> 00:19:26,335 So, like you know, because you're focused on other people's 402 00:19:26,335 --> 00:19:26,694 opinions. 403 00:19:26,694 --> 00:19:32,923 So what you can do is you can affirm you can come into 404 00:19:32,963 --> 00:19:33,826 alignment with yourself. 405 00:19:33,826 --> 00:19:36,797 So, for example, we talked about the very simplified 406 00:19:36,836 --> 00:19:39,311 definition of personal power is a person who's focused on their 407 00:19:39,352 --> 00:19:43,126 own goals, and what research has found is that one of the 408 00:19:43,166 --> 00:19:45,493 simplest things you can do is, 20 minutes before high stakes 409 00:19:45,513 --> 00:19:49,063 situation, sit down with a list of values, pick out your top 410 00:19:49,150 --> 00:19:55,230 three, let's say, and then, of that top three, pick out the top 411 00:19:55,230 --> 00:19:55,431 one value. 412 00:19:55,431 --> 00:19:56,333 This is the most important value to me. 413 00:19:56,353 --> 00:19:57,615 You talk about living purposely, for example, and just write for 414 00:19:57,615 --> 00:20:01,472 four minutes why this value is important to you personally not 415 00:20:01,513 --> 00:20:05,365 for the situation, necessarily just for you and that plugs you 416 00:20:05,426 --> 00:20:08,773 back into yourself and you come into a line with yourself, doing 417 00:20:08,773 --> 00:20:09,454 nothing else. 418 00:20:09,454 --> 00:20:12,118 Research suggests, if you walk into a high stakes situation, 419 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:14,301 you're going to, you're going to knock it out of the ballpark 420 00:20:14,682 --> 00:20:16,345 like a power prime, just like that. 421 00:20:16,345 --> 00:20:19,538 They did this before people came into interviews, 20 minutes 422 00:20:19,538 --> 00:20:20,000 before an interview. 423 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:22,856 If you prime yourself with personal power, you're 81 424 00:20:22,896 --> 00:20:24,160 percent more likely to get hired . 425 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,237 Doing nothing else, it's like it almost doubles your chance. 426 00:20:27,237 --> 00:20:32,462 So it's about mindset, and one of the ways you can really get 427 00:20:32,482 --> 00:20:35,933 that mindset, boost that mindset in yourself, is to take a few 428 00:20:35,993 --> 00:20:39,438 minutes pause and reflect on your values and your purpose and 429 00:20:39,438 --> 00:20:41,212 this is going to fade and then you just do it again and do it 430 00:20:41,232 --> 00:20:42,517 again, and that's how you stay aligned. 431 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:46,175 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think there's also. 432 00:20:46,175 --> 00:20:50,556 I would assume there's probably something to be said for that 433 00:20:50,615 --> 00:20:51,519 type of a process. 434 00:20:51,519 --> 00:20:57,401 I'm guessing that I'm heading in the right direction here. 435 00:20:57,401 --> 00:21:02,516 It's also about making sure that you're prioritizing your 436 00:21:02,576 --> 00:21:06,962 values so that you're not letting other people drive your 437 00:21:07,002 --> 00:21:09,310 priorities or the things that matter to you, so that you're 438 00:21:09,351 --> 00:21:13,002 not saying yes to everything and then letting everything else 439 00:21:13,063 --> 00:21:13,846 fall by the wayside. 440 00:21:13,846 --> 00:21:14,406 Am I onto? 441 00:21:14,406 --> 00:21:15,411 Am I onto something there? 442 00:21:16,353 --> 00:21:18,176 Speaker 2: They did some research into workplace courage, 443 00:21:18,176 --> 00:21:20,222 like what causes people to be whistleblowers. 444 00:21:20,222 --> 00:21:21,837 You know, like Edward Snowden, how did he become a 445 00:21:21,857 --> 00:21:22,340 whistleblower? 446 00:21:22,340 --> 00:21:23,286 Um, you know. 447 00:21:23,286 --> 00:21:25,991 And these people who, who really stand up, and you know 448 00:21:26,071 --> 00:21:26,653 Enron case. 449 00:21:26,653 --> 00:21:26,853 Why? 450 00:21:26,853 --> 00:21:29,215 Why did people come forward in this stuff when they faced huge 451 00:21:29,256 --> 00:21:29,737 backlash? 452 00:21:31,659 --> 00:21:35,984 And the research found workplace courage depends on two, but 453 00:21:36,005 --> 00:21:39,354 basically three factors, and the first was every person who 454 00:21:39,453 --> 00:21:40,336 acted courageously. 455 00:21:40,336 --> 00:21:44,663 Number one is they took responsibility for what was 456 00:21:44,710 --> 00:21:44,971 happening. 457 00:21:44,971 --> 00:21:46,859 They asked themselves the first question is this my 458 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:47,583 responsibility? 459 00:21:47,583 --> 00:21:51,057 And those who said, yes, this is my responsibility, that 460 00:21:51,178 --> 00:21:52,471 mediated courageous action. 461 00:21:52,471 --> 00:21:54,458 That was the real, that was the root cause of it. 462 00:21:54,458 --> 00:21:56,252 People who said it's not my responsibility. 463 00:21:56,252 --> 00:21:57,615 Obviously, they're not going to do anything. 464 00:21:57,615 --> 00:22:00,913 But what was fascinating is this wasn't just like, hey, this 465 00:22:00,913 --> 00:22:02,678 is my formal responsibility. 466 00:22:02,678 --> 00:22:05,250 A lot of the people they had in the research study. 467 00:22:05,250 --> 00:22:09,499 They just when those people ask themselves oh, you know, the 468 00:22:09,519 --> 00:22:11,583 people who took courageous action, is this my 469 00:22:11,623 --> 00:22:12,204 responsibility? 470 00:22:12,204 --> 00:22:16,259 Often, what they translated that to is am I in a position to 471 00:22:16,259 --> 00:22:17,942 be able to do something about this right now? 472 00:22:17,942 --> 00:22:22,000 Not, is this my role, but can I actually do something in this 473 00:22:22,059 --> 00:22:22,320 moment? 474 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:24,636 And they all said yes, those who took courageous action. 475 00:22:24,636 --> 00:22:25,559 They took responsibility. 476 00:22:25,559 --> 00:22:28,090 So then, after they took responsibility, they asked 477 00:22:28,111 --> 00:22:30,250 themselves one more question before they actually took 478 00:22:30,290 --> 00:22:30,971 courageous action. 479 00:22:30,971 --> 00:22:32,951 And the second question is should I act? 480 00:22:32,951 --> 00:22:34,452 So then, after they took responsibility, they asked 481 00:22:34,472 --> 00:22:35,712 himself one more question before they actually took courageous 482 00:22:35,752 --> 00:22:35,932 action. 483 00:22:35,932 --> 00:22:37,594 And the second question is should I act? 484 00:22:37,653 --> 00:22:39,954 You know that really broke down into two categories those who 485 00:22:39,994 --> 00:22:41,174 did versus those who didn't. 486 00:22:41,174 --> 00:22:43,915 Those who didn't take courageous action. 487 00:22:43,915 --> 00:22:45,916 They basically they looked at the environment, they looked at, 488 00:22:45,916 --> 00:22:46,957 they assessed the threats. 489 00:22:46,957 --> 00:22:49,137 Right, people are out of their power. 490 00:22:49,137 --> 00:22:50,378 They're really externally focused. 491 00:22:50,378 --> 00:22:52,138 So they're more. 492 00:22:52,138 --> 00:22:54,339 They let fear guide them more. 493 00:22:54,339 --> 00:22:56,381 So, of course, anytime you're taking courageous action, 494 00:22:56,401 --> 00:22:58,240 there's a threat on the external , otherwise it wouldn't be 495 00:22:58,280 --> 00:22:58,582 courage. 496 00:22:58,582 --> 00:23:01,082 But those who said I should, should I act? 497 00:23:01,082 --> 00:23:03,323 They looked outward and they analyzed the threats and they're 498 00:23:03,323 --> 00:23:05,743 like you know, no fear was their guiding factor. 499 00:23:05,743 --> 00:23:08,944 Those who took courageous action, what they did is they 500 00:23:08,984 --> 00:23:11,506 looked inward instead of outward and they said, okay, is this 501 00:23:11,566 --> 00:23:12,767 aligned with my values or not? 502 00:23:12,767 --> 00:23:17,008 And when they said, okay, this is not right and I feel this is 503 00:23:17,028 --> 00:23:17,387 not right. 504 00:23:17,387 --> 00:23:18,568 Right, their eyes were pointed inward. 505 00:23:22,313 --> 00:23:26,732 Speaker 1: That then led them to take the action, yeah, so I 506 00:23:26,792 --> 00:23:35,153 think this all to me, it really makes a whole lot of sense. 507 00:23:35,153 --> 00:23:40,691 It also, I think, when you reflect on people that are 508 00:23:40,711 --> 00:23:45,788 really successful, I think almost every single one of them, 509 00:23:45,788 --> 00:23:51,150 you could say, whether you like them or not, they do that, they 510 00:23:51,150 --> 00:23:58,585 do that right, like there is almost a fanaticism to their 511 00:23:58,704 --> 00:24:03,606 personal you know objectives at times and I think it's really 512 00:24:03,646 --> 00:24:08,111 kind of it's a fascinating way to kind of think about it. 513 00:24:08,111 --> 00:24:13,882 So, but we still like to be liked right, like it's still 514 00:24:13,922 --> 00:24:20,340 like it's still like nice to be, to be likable Right, and I 515 00:24:20,401 --> 00:24:24,307 think and I think it's it can be really uncomfortable for people 516 00:24:24,307 --> 00:24:27,273 who who maybe, maybe, struggle with that. 517 00:24:27,273 --> 00:24:29,847 So so how do we start? 518 00:24:29,847 --> 00:24:32,601 Small, like, like, where would you recommend that we kind of 519 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:39,565 like reflect on our own actions and figure out okay, where am I 520 00:24:39,644 --> 00:24:43,086 maybe too much of a people pleaser or maybe stepping out of 521 00:24:43,086 --> 00:24:45,968 my power, being more externally focused versus internally 522 00:24:46,028 --> 00:24:47,788 focused on how I think about this? 523 00:24:50,490 --> 00:24:55,794 Speaker 2: you know, I spoke with a uh, a city council member 524 00:24:55,794 --> 00:24:58,454 , um, and I was asking her she'd been reelected. 525 00:24:58,454 --> 00:24:59,955 She was totally just out of nowhere. 526 00:24:59,955 --> 00:25:03,597 She had gotten elected, she was just a normal, normal mom and 527 00:25:03,857 --> 00:25:09,487 uh, and she wanted to make a difference and somehow she ended 528 00:25:09,487 --> 00:25:10,211 up doing it, with a lot of work . 529 00:25:10,211 --> 00:25:12,301 Anyway, she got reelected a few times, even though there was a 530 00:25:12,321 --> 00:25:15,328 lot of money against her from the political powers that be, 531 00:25:16,010 --> 00:25:18,396 and um and her. 532 00:25:18,396 --> 00:25:19,500 I asked her what's her philosophy? 533 00:25:19,500 --> 00:25:21,164 I loved that. 534 00:25:21,164 --> 00:25:22,990 I asked this question because I got such a beautiful answer 535 00:25:23,029 --> 00:25:26,208 from her and she's like you know , because I was asking about 536 00:25:26,248 --> 00:25:27,791 liking and pleasing and stuff, and she's like. 537 00:25:27,791 --> 00:25:32,848 She's like my philosophy is I don't care if you like me, I'm 538 00:25:32,949 --> 00:25:36,855 here to serve you, right? 539 00:25:36,855 --> 00:25:38,999 I mean, wow, like it's. 540 00:25:38,999 --> 00:25:42,005 That just shows the internal drive and support of other 541 00:25:42,065 --> 00:25:46,653 people so that's fascinating to me. 542 00:25:46,712 --> 00:25:50,663 Speaker 1: What a what a great answer, because and I've had a 543 00:25:50,723 --> 00:25:55,088 couple guests on the podcast kind of get into this a little 544 00:25:55,108 --> 00:25:58,933 bit where there's almost a misunderstanding about what like 545 00:25:58,933 --> 00:26:00,115 servant leadership means. 546 00:26:00,115 --> 00:26:03,463 Right, you know, it doesn't mean that you just do what 547 00:26:03,503 --> 00:26:07,009 everybody wants you to do, or keep everybody happy and smiling 548 00:26:07,009 --> 00:26:12,525 , and you know kumbaya all the time, but you still, it's more 549 00:26:12,545 --> 00:26:15,112 about having a servant mindset and and what. 550 00:26:15,112 --> 00:26:18,308 What a distinct difference between you. 551 00:26:18,308 --> 00:26:21,739 Know, I, I'm here to serve you, not to be liked by you. 552 00:26:21,739 --> 00:26:23,844 Right, like that's a, that's like that. 553 00:26:23,844 --> 00:26:26,471 Talk about, yeah, that's like a power, that's like a mic drop 554 00:26:26,490 --> 00:26:27,801 power, move right there for sure . 555 00:26:30,266 --> 00:26:33,291 Speaker 2: Um, I think sometimes , as I think parents you might, 556 00:26:33,412 --> 00:26:35,825 you know, recognize, as a parent , your job isn't to make your 557 00:26:35,845 --> 00:26:38,655 kid happy, your job is to make it Well. 558 00:26:38,655 --> 00:26:40,625 Your job is not to make your kid like you in the moment, 559 00:26:40,645 --> 00:26:42,454 right, it's to teach them the lessons that's going to make 560 00:26:42,476 --> 00:26:45,023 them the best person they can possibly be. 561 00:26:45,023 --> 00:26:47,150 That's why I hold the accountability. 562 00:26:47,150 --> 00:26:48,840 You know like it's a power move . 563 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,285 Like you hold other people accountable, You're in your own 564 00:26:51,325 --> 00:26:53,608 power, you're forcing them to be in their power. 565 00:26:53,608 --> 00:26:56,653 They might hate you in that moment, but they're going to 566 00:26:56,814 --> 00:26:57,174 love you. 567 00:26:57,174 --> 00:26:59,928 You know that later on, when they see what you've done for 568 00:26:59,948 --> 00:27:00,067 them. 569 00:27:00,470 --> 00:27:03,250 And that's what the beauty about this workplace courage research 570 00:27:03,250 --> 00:27:05,880 was was so many people who, when they, when they stood up 571 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,403 and they spoke against the norm and they did that workplace 572 00:27:08,423 --> 00:27:11,787 courage, at first they got like really serious pushback. 573 00:27:11,787 --> 00:27:14,009 That's what made it like you know, like like some of their 574 00:27:14,069 --> 00:27:15,813 leaders were like yelling at them. 575 00:27:15,813 --> 00:27:18,776 Um, there's this one example where they were. 576 00:27:18,776 --> 00:27:21,151 There's a military group in finland and it was like it was 577 00:27:21,211 --> 00:27:23,502 so frosty and they were doing this multi-day trek and the 578 00:27:23,584 --> 00:27:26,912 medic who's like the youngest, lowest officer in the whole 579 00:27:26,951 --> 00:27:29,584 group, he's like people are starting to get frostnip, which 580 00:27:29,624 --> 00:27:32,009 is the precondition for right, you're about to get frostbite 581 00:27:32,028 --> 00:27:33,731 and their skin's going to die and all this stuff. 582 00:27:33,731 --> 00:27:36,061 So he has to go to the major who's like this you know the 583 00:27:36,082 --> 00:27:38,549 super head, and he's like he's like I got to tell them, I got 584 00:27:38,569 --> 00:27:47,048 to tell them, we got to turn around. 585 00:27:47,390 --> 00:27:48,671 First, he had to make that choice. 586 00:27:48,671 --> 00:27:50,452 Like am I going to actually do this and try to say, hey, we got 587 00:27:50,452 --> 00:27:50,613 to? 588 00:27:50,613 --> 00:27:52,776 And he's like nope, and he just pulled the medical authority, 589 00:27:52,796 --> 00:27:54,938 even though he's like the super junior officer, anyway. 590 00:27:54,938 --> 00:27:57,221 So they turned around and took him two days to get back and he 591 00:27:57,261 --> 00:27:59,567 was saying I'm so glad I did, because people started getting 592 00:27:59,648 --> 00:28:01,622 really bad frostbite on the way back and they couldn't even 593 00:28:01,642 --> 00:28:02,786 carry their backpacks and stuff. 594 00:28:02,786 --> 00:28:08,083 And he said after they got back , a short time after that, 595 00:28:08,762 --> 00:28:11,444 everybody was obviously the right choice and the major who 596 00:28:11,484 --> 00:28:14,666 was attacking him and berating him when he was stepping up into 597 00:28:14,666 --> 00:28:20,352 his power ended up giving him a promotion. 598 00:28:20,352 --> 00:28:24,734 So so when we really stand in our power, in those moments, in 599 00:28:24,755 --> 00:28:27,717 the moment it will be uncomfortable, but in the longer 600 00:28:27,717 --> 00:28:30,878 perspective, a lot of the times , we're actually rewarded, a lot 601 00:28:30,878 --> 00:28:31,619 of the times were actually rewarded. 602 00:28:33,202 --> 00:28:33,523 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 603 00:28:33,523 --> 00:28:39,851 And I think what a powerful example of somebody who 604 00:28:40,694 --> 00:28:45,105 definitely could have taken the quote easy way out but then fast 605 00:28:45,105 --> 00:28:45,627 forward. 606 00:28:45,627 --> 00:28:49,076 If that would have started happening and they were still on 607 00:28:49,076 --> 00:28:51,988 the mission and marching forward and then unable to 608 00:28:52,028 --> 00:28:57,828 complete it and had some sort of catastrophic outcome, then 609 00:28:57,888 --> 00:28:59,373 somebody would have been pointing a finger and going, 610 00:28:59,393 --> 00:29:00,644 well, why didn't you say something? 611 00:29:00,644 --> 00:29:01,067 Right? 612 00:29:01,067 --> 00:29:01,942 So it's almost like. 613 00:29:01,942 --> 00:29:05,451 It's almost like doing doing nothing or not saying anything 614 00:29:05,491 --> 00:29:09,648 would have been a catastrophic decision and probably would have 615 00:29:09,648 --> 00:29:12,728 , you know, probably could have been a really bad personal 616 00:29:12,788 --> 00:29:16,184 outcome for that individual and certainly a horrible outcome for 617 00:29:16,184 --> 00:29:18,551 anybody that had a medical issue. 618 00:29:18,551 --> 00:29:22,810 So, I think, a great example. 619 00:29:22,891 --> 00:29:26,441 And for the HR professionals that are listening, or people 620 00:29:26,461 --> 00:29:29,169 leaders that are listening, I think that's a great story to 621 00:29:29,209 --> 00:29:29,851 reflect on. 622 00:29:29,851 --> 00:29:32,326 Is your team getting frostbite? 623 00:29:32,326 --> 00:29:35,260 Great story to reflect on. 624 00:29:35,260 --> 00:29:36,482 You know, is your team getting frostbite and are you keeping 625 00:29:36,503 --> 00:29:38,567 quiet when, when there's a you know, a potentially catastrophic 626 00:29:38,567 --> 00:29:42,461 incident coming up and, and you know, my, my call to action for 627 00:29:42,461 --> 00:29:47,351 for all of you is um, if, if you, if you believe it 628 00:29:47,490 --> 00:29:50,303 internally and you know it's the right thing to do, then it's 629 00:29:50,363 --> 00:29:52,167 more important to be powerful than liked. 630 00:29:54,071 --> 00:29:54,633 Speaker 2: It's interesting. 631 00:29:54,633 --> 00:29:59,413 Of course, some people get fired for crossing the managers 632 00:29:59,433 --> 00:29:59,900 and all this stuff. 633 00:29:59,900 --> 00:30:01,144 These cases happen. 634 00:30:01,144 --> 00:30:03,828 People get fired most often because they're useless. 635 00:30:06,921 --> 00:30:08,246 Speaker 1: I didn't mean to just throw that out there so 636 00:30:08,266 --> 00:30:08,467 casually. 637 00:30:10,319 --> 00:30:15,064 Speaker 2: We've got a lot of mic drops today, people are 638 00:30:15,104 --> 00:30:17,646 hired and fired based on the value add that they're perceived 639 00:30:17,646 --> 00:30:22,471 to provide the organization, and when we are not taking 640 00:30:22,530 --> 00:30:25,053 responsibility, we're communicating again that we're 641 00:30:25,093 --> 00:30:25,894 not adding value. 642 00:30:25,894 --> 00:30:28,997 And so if you're there and you know, oh, but it's not my fault, 643 00:30:28,997 --> 00:30:29,636 it's not my fault. 644 00:30:33,365 --> 00:30:35,797 Speaker 1: You're just basically saying I'm not the right person 645 00:30:35,797 --> 00:30:36,278 for this position. 646 00:30:38,460 --> 00:30:38,671 Speaker 2: Yeah right, right, I love it. 647 00:30:38,671 --> 00:30:38,748 I's not my fault. 648 00:30:38,748 --> 00:30:39,568 You're just basically saying I'm not the right person for 649 00:30:39,522 --> 00:30:40,239 this position. 650 00:30:40,239 --> 00:30:41,423 Yeah Right, you know, right, I love it and I think that's a 651 00:30:41,377 --> 00:30:41,577 great. 652 00:30:41,577 --> 00:30:42,671 And to those who are afraid the research is super clear that 653 00:30:42,625 --> 00:30:43,566 when you stand up and take responsibility, even for 654 00:30:43,605 --> 00:30:47,211 failures, or you stand up right, we think all of this because 655 00:30:47,251 --> 00:30:51,509 we're so focused on being liked, we're afraid of anger and 656 00:30:51,548 --> 00:30:52,974 resistance that other people show us. 657 00:30:52,974 --> 00:30:56,650 But the research is super clear that a lot of these, in the 658 00:30:56,690 --> 00:30:59,340 long run, we get more respect, we're more liked and we're more 659 00:30:59,361 --> 00:31:00,285 likely to get promoted. 660 00:31:00,285 --> 00:31:03,157 When we're doing these things, like standing up, taking 661 00:31:03,198 --> 00:31:07,749 responsibility when things go bad, it doesn't hurt us, even 662 00:31:07,769 --> 00:31:09,653 though it feels like it is hurting us. 663 00:31:09,653 --> 00:31:10,501 It's actually the opposite. 664 00:31:11,042 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 1: It might feel hurtful in the moment, but, yeah, yeah, 665 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:17,540 can you come tell my kids that, by the way, Because this 666 00:31:17,580 --> 00:31:22,407 weekend when my son lost his phone, he thought I was the 667 00:31:22,448 --> 00:31:25,607 worst person in the world, but we had a great day after he lost 668 00:31:25,607 --> 00:31:27,488 , after he didn't have his phone . 669 00:31:27,488 --> 00:31:30,980 With that we're going to transition and I'm really 670 00:31:31,020 --> 00:31:33,906 fascinated to hear your responses to the Rebel HR 671 00:31:34,047 --> 00:31:34,989 flash-around questions. 672 00:31:34,989 --> 00:31:35,450 Are you ready? 673 00:31:35,450 --> 00:31:37,574 Absolutely All right. 674 00:31:37,574 --> 00:31:40,490 Question number one where do we need to rebel? 675 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,467 Speaker 2: The metaphysical answer is you need to rebel 676 00:31:48,547 --> 00:31:50,932 against your own fear right. 677 00:31:50,932 --> 00:31:55,348 Rebel against the feelings that keep you feeling small. 678 00:31:55,348 --> 00:31:59,050 Rebel against reacting to your own fears and insecurities. 679 00:31:59,050 --> 00:32:04,074 The most courageous action you can take is to stand in the face 680 00:32:04,074 --> 00:32:06,299 of your own feelings and choose what you know to be right 681 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,566 rather than what you feel to be safe. 682 00:32:10,351 --> 00:32:10,731 Speaker 1: I love it. 683 00:32:10,731 --> 00:32:12,867 Yeah, it's fascinating to me. 684 00:32:12,867 --> 00:32:17,564 So we use the term rebel and, you know, rebel HR, of course, 685 00:32:17,663 --> 00:32:22,186 is a little bit oxymoronic as a title, but that's really what 686 00:32:22,207 --> 00:32:25,210 we're talking about, like, we're talking about, you know, being 687 00:32:25,730 --> 00:32:28,913 brave enough to stand up and to own your personal power. 688 00:32:28,913 --> 00:32:33,336 So I, you know, I think I think for, for, for this audience, um 689 00:32:33,336 --> 00:32:36,462 , you know, this is, this is definitely a topic to, to dig 690 00:32:36,502 --> 00:32:37,846 into and stand strong in. 691 00:32:37,846 --> 00:32:40,373 So question number two who, yeah, go ahead. 692 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,205 Speaker 2: Because you mentioned HR and you mentioned this and 693 00:32:45,648 --> 00:32:48,762 you know, of course everybody knows we're in to create culture 694 00:32:48,762 --> 00:32:49,926 change and these things. 695 00:32:49,926 --> 00:32:52,461 But there are times where, of course, we cannot create culture 696 00:32:52,461 --> 00:32:53,963 change because, uh it well it's . 697 00:32:53,963 --> 00:32:57,811 Sometimes it's just a behemoth, you know, it's a mammoth 698 00:32:58,011 --> 00:32:59,054 undertaking. 699 00:32:59,054 --> 00:33:02,188 But also, sometimes the executive management is not on 700 00:33:02,208 --> 00:33:04,001 board with what we think is the best for the organization. 701 00:33:04,364 --> 00:33:06,332 And this is why it's so important to empower your 702 00:33:06,352 --> 00:33:08,641 employees, because employees don't want to be in an 703 00:33:08,661 --> 00:33:10,525 environment where they feel, you know, they're disengaged and 704 00:33:10,545 --> 00:33:10,765 all this. 705 00:33:10,765 --> 00:33:12,709 They feel stress, right, and you're like I want to help you, 706 00:33:12,869 --> 00:33:13,991 right, by changing the organization. 707 00:33:13,991 --> 00:33:16,943 But an employee will actually feel less stress and more 708 00:33:16,983 --> 00:33:19,009 engaged when they themselves are empowered, regardless of the 709 00:33:19,059 --> 00:33:19,884 environment, right? 710 00:33:19,884 --> 00:33:21,757 Because an employee who's saying I'm going to work 711 00:33:21,777 --> 00:33:29,489 somewhere else because of the culture, well, in one sense they 712 00:33:29,489 --> 00:33:30,609 are taking personal responsibility for their 713 00:33:30,630 --> 00:33:31,010 somewhere else. 714 00:33:31,010 --> 00:33:35,115 And if you begin to help employees see that, regardless 715 00:33:35,155 --> 00:33:39,269 of the environment, that they have an opportunity, but in 716 00:33:39,289 --> 00:33:41,346 order to do that they have to tap into themselves to find that 717 00:33:41,346 --> 00:33:46,307 rather than tap outside into an organizational change, then you 718 00:33:46,307 --> 00:33:49,357 don't have to feel so restricted by the behemoth 719 00:33:49,417 --> 00:33:51,338 organization and trying to make change on a large scale. 720 00:33:51,338 --> 00:33:54,785 If you make it on the individual scale, that's enough. 721 00:33:55,826 --> 00:34:00,855 Speaker 1: Yeah, totally agree, and I, I, I, through the course 722 00:34:00,875 --> 00:34:02,826 of my career, there've been a number of times where I have 723 00:34:02,907 --> 00:34:08,123 been so incredibly surprised and impressed when just one, two, 724 00:34:08,222 --> 00:34:13,250 three people do that and the, the, the ripple that's created 725 00:34:13,630 --> 00:34:18,036 is, you know, it's it, it matters, it really does. 726 00:34:18,036 --> 00:34:21,447 And so, yeah, I, I appreciate you saying that I totally agree. 727 00:34:21,447 --> 00:34:24,880 Question number two who should we be listening to? 728 00:34:28,347 --> 00:34:28,909 Speaker 2: just that. 729 00:34:28,909 --> 00:34:29,769 That's the answer. 730 00:34:29,769 --> 00:34:30,871 That's the end of your question . 731 00:34:31,052 --> 00:34:32,983 Speaker 1: There you go, I love it, okay, all right. 732 00:34:32,983 --> 00:34:35,027 Um, and then a final question how can our listeners connect 733 00:34:35,047 --> 00:34:35,588 with you and learn more? 734 00:34:35,588 --> 00:34:35,829 Just that. 735 00:34:35,829 --> 00:34:36,530 That's the end of your question . 736 00:34:36,530 --> 00:34:37,914 There you go, I love it, okay, all right. 737 00:34:37,974 --> 00:34:39,197 Speaker 2: And then a final question how can our listeners 738 00:34:39,217 --> 00:34:40,619 connect with you and learn more and get their hands on the book. 739 00:34:40,619 --> 00:34:42,483 Okay, you're going to edit this because I didn't realize. 740 00:34:42,483 --> 00:34:43,925 I thought there was going to be more to that question, because 741 00:34:43,945 --> 00:34:46,592 I was like, who should people listen to? 742 00:34:46,592 --> 00:34:50,764 You know, my response is obvious People should listen to 743 00:34:50,784 --> 00:34:51,266 themselves. 744 00:34:51,266 --> 00:34:56,905 But how do you do that? 745 00:34:56,905 --> 00:34:57,173 Right, that's not so easy. 746 00:34:57,114 --> 00:34:58,331 Well, first you got to just be self-aware, and I think that the 747 00:34:58,331 --> 00:34:59,467 biggest step anybody can take you know, I'm teaching a new 748 00:34:59,409 --> 00:35:00,702 course on personal power here at the business school at Tulane 749 00:35:01,364 --> 00:35:03,293 and, uh, you know I'm going to teach them all. 750 00:35:03,293 --> 00:35:05,161 We just like, went to the first week and we're going to learn 751 00:35:05,260 --> 00:35:09,208 everything about personal power there is, but the first step is 752 00:35:09,268 --> 00:35:11,090 awareness and so, like, the first lectures were actually 753 00:35:11,110 --> 00:35:13,574 really hard because I'm like, where are you guys not showing 754 00:35:13,635 --> 00:35:13,675 up? 755 00:35:13,675 --> 00:35:14,684 Like, where are you not? 756 00:35:14,684 --> 00:35:15,547 Where are you blaming? 757 00:35:15,547 --> 00:35:16,686 Where are you? 758 00:35:16,686 --> 00:35:19,344 You know, looking outward rather than inward for the 759 00:35:19,425 --> 00:35:21,327 answers, like it's like the really uncomfortable stuff. 760 00:35:21,327 --> 00:35:25,166 So the first step to personal power is self-awareness. 761 00:35:27,170 --> 00:35:27,510 Speaker 1: I love it. 762 00:35:27,510 --> 00:35:29,981 I love it All right. 763 00:35:29,981 --> 00:35:30,784 Last question now. 764 00:35:30,784 --> 00:35:31,724 How can our listeners connect with you? 765 00:35:31,724 --> 00:35:31,699 I love it All right. 766 00:35:31,699 --> 00:35:31,811 Last question now. 767 00:35:34,862 --> 00:35:35,702 Speaker 2: How can our listeners connect with you? 768 00:35:35,702 --> 00:35:36,463 My website, speakvaluecom. 769 00:35:36,463 --> 00:35:38,505 Of course you can see kind of what I speak on there some of my 770 00:35:38,505 --> 00:35:41,509 books but if you're interested in the science of personal power 771 00:35:41,509 --> 00:35:42,590 , grab the book on Amazon. 772 00:35:42,590 --> 00:35:46,034 And if this is something you want to bring into your 773 00:35:46,114 --> 00:35:48,317 organization, I'm happy to deliver workshops. 774 00:35:48,317 --> 00:35:50,306 Or even I can just send you emails and give you some 775 00:35:50,346 --> 00:35:52,150 information on tips you can use within your organization. 776 00:35:52,150 --> 00:35:53,394 Absolutely, or even I can just send you emails and give you 777 00:35:53,414 --> 00:35:54,659 some information on tips you can use within your organization. 778 00:35:54,679 --> 00:35:55,559 Speaker 1: Absolutely so. 779 00:35:55,559 --> 00:35:58,927 The book again the Science of Personal Power how to Build 780 00:35:58,967 --> 00:36:01,152 Confidence, create Success and Obtain Freedom. 781 00:36:01,152 --> 00:36:03,809 It is available now or books are sold. 782 00:36:03,809 --> 00:36:07,048 Chris, thank you so much for joining us and for putting this 783 00:36:07,128 --> 00:36:09,706 out there Really, really great stuff. 784 00:36:09,706 --> 00:36:12,702 We just scratched the surface, so go get the book and 785 00:36:12,943 --> 00:36:15,047 appreciate your time today, chris Pleasure. 786 00:36:15,047 --> 00:36:15,588 Thank you, kyle. 787 00:36:15,588 --> 00:36:18,833 Thank you All right. 788 00:36:18,833 --> 00:36:21,643 That does it for the Rebel HR podcast. 789 00:36:21,643 --> 00:36:23,628 Big thank you to our guests. 790 00:36:23,628 --> 00:36:28,965 Follow us on Facebook at Rebel HR podcast, twitter at Rebel HR 791 00:36:28,985 --> 00:36:32,775 guy or see our website at rebel human resourcescom. 792 00:36:32,775 --> 00:36:36,086 The views and opinions expressed by rebel hr podcast 793 00:36:36,126 --> 00:36:38,297 are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the 794 00:36:38,336 --> 00:36:42,186 official policy or position of any of the organizations that we 795 00:36:42,186 --> 00:36:42,648 represent. 796 00:36:42,648 --> 00:36:46,141 No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast. 797 00:36:46,141 --> 00:36:48,445 Baby.