Speaker 1: This is the Rebel HR podcast, the podcast about all things innovation in the people's space.
Speaker 1: I'm Kyle Rode.
Speaker 1: Let's start the show.
Speaker 1: Welcome back, rebel HR community.
Speaker 1: We are going to have a fun conversation today With us.
Speaker 1: We have an amazing guest, chris Lipp.
Speaker 1: He is a professor at Tulane University and author of the book that is available now where books are sold the Science of Personal Power.
Speaker 1: Chris, welcome to the podcast, thank you.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm really excited to talk about this topic and I think that there's going to be a lot of great insight that you can share with our audience.
Speaker 1: So excited for the conversation today.
Speaker 1: My first question for you that I'd like to understand is what motivated you to write a book about the science of personal power?
Speaker 2: I think all of us in business, particularly in organizations, we sometimes struggle with a sense of identity or that when we're part of something larger, but also it's still our lives that we're living.
Speaker 2: And at first, you know, I was concerned about my voice being heard in this environment.
Speaker 2: Right, how do I stand out?
Speaker 2: How can I actually have a place to stand on that's not standing on sort of a shaky bridge of other people's opinions, and I believed that the way to deal with that was really to kind of be able to influence other people's opinions.
Speaker 2: So I wrote a few books on persuasion.
Speaker 2: Really, I thought communication was the key, which it is one of the most important keys.
Speaker 2: But even with great persuasion, I began to understand, or at least be able to see this dynamic that was happening underneath the conversation, which now I know the words, you know ultimately is the power dynamic that's happening, and we feel it when we walk into a room with our executive management.
Speaker 2: We might feel small, we might feel intimidated or fearful, we might feel like we're overly people pleasing and, you know, basically giving our power away.
Speaker 2: And other times, though, we walk into these environments and we feel confident, we feel strong, we voice our opinions, everybody listens to us, things are working the direction we want it, and all of that is personal power, and so I spent the last.
Speaker 2: I think it was six.
Speaker 2: It's been about six years now that I've been really researching.
Speaker 2: This combined all the research that I did from the last 20 years into the book, the Science of Personal Power.
Speaker 1: So I love the topic because and I think as a recovering people pleaser it definitely resonates with me personally struggle with that, you know, that aspect with kind of the retention of their own personal power and agency and and and balancing the demands of being kind of a people person, right or or or a leader of people or or, you know, an influencer.
Speaker 1: So so, as you were writing this book and and kind of you know, doing doing your research on persuasion and ultimately power, what I guess advice or tips or tricks would you tell somebody who is kind of a natural people pleaser on how to kind of retain your power and not give it away?
Speaker 1: I loved the bridge of other people's opinions as kind of an image there.
Speaker 1: I'm curious what advice you would have for us.
Speaker 2: One of the challenges I think a lot of us face is we like people.
Speaker 2: I mean, we're people, people right.
Speaker 2: And it's in my own life that my highest value is really the people in my life, right, my relationships.
Speaker 2: And what happens is sometimes we get that confused with being nice or being kind of people-pleasing, right, people-pleasing kind of has a negative connotation precisely because we can sense that we're giving our power away, even as we're being nice to so-and-so persons.
Speaker 1: This is going to be edited.
Speaker 1: I assume right my brain just blanked, you're good man, it's, it's all good.
Speaker 2: One of the benefits of personal power is that we don't have to give our power away in order to help other people feel empowered.
Speaker 2: In fact, this is, you know, people pleasing.
Speaker 2: There's this sense that, yeah, we are giving something of ourselves away in the process of pushing others up.
Speaker 2: But real personal power, real personal power, as we stand in our power, others around us get empowered.
Speaker 2: And so, you know, we see this with great leaders.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a lot of talk about in the nation.
Speaker 2: I'm going to go see Alexander Hamilton the musical soon again, and you know it's all about.
Speaker 2: There's George Washington and all this stuff, and you know, you think about George Washington as a leader, and here's a, here's a man that we associate with super strong power, but at the same time, he's empowering other people around him, you know, and they're creating a nation, and so personal power is something that is that rubs off on other people too, but it's not people pleasing.
Speaker 2: It's a certain way of being, it's a certain way of and we'll talk.
Speaker 2: I'm sure you're going to ask questions about this, but I'm happy to discuss.
Speaker 2: You know what, what, where does that really come from?
Speaker 2: How does that show up?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, I think it's, it's a fascinating.
Speaker 1: It's a fascinating topic because I think many of us certainly certainly if we were raised to be humble or not brag too much or not cause too many waves we really struggle with this idea of personal power because it almost feels like aggressive.
Speaker 1: Even the term power there, you know it's, there's, there's associated aggression there.
Speaker 1: But you know, what I'm hearing you say is that it's not about.
Speaker 1: It's not about like a a win, I win, you lose, kind of a thing you know you're you're talking about.
Speaker 1: You're talking about something that kind of.
Speaker 1: You know it is about elevating everybody's power and and my assumption is that the research proves out that if everybody feels empowered and everybody feels that they can kind of have their own voice and retain their, their, their own personal power, then you find much more success in whatever endeavors you're you're approaching right.
Speaker 1: So help me unpack a little bit the difference between what our common definition of power is versus what you're talking about here, which I think they're slightly kind of different definitions.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know what the first thing to understand is.
Speaker 2: I'm not talking about soft, fuzzy power either.
Speaker 2: I'm not talking about community power and what we generally associate with empowerment, with these sort of empathic leadership.
Speaker 2: So there's this.
Speaker 2: I think what I call it is like a false dichotomy in society today.
Speaker 2: You're either an alpha dominator or you're this empathic, connected leader.
Speaker 2: And so you know.
Speaker 2: And the truth is you know, we've seen both types of leaders succeed.
Speaker 2: We've seen both types of leaders be respected.
Speaker 2: In fact, bill Gates is commonly thought of as a dominator and if you look at the history of himself in Microsoft, you know he was super dominant and he would shout people down and he would insult them when they gave bad ideas.
Speaker 2: And his employees loved him and they said that it brought out the best in them Right.
Speaker 2: But other times you get other people, like Harvey Weinstein, who's like the anathema of a leader, right, and you could argue he's we would put the same label like a dominator on him, and yet everybody hates him.
Speaker 2: And so you know it's not.
Speaker 2: It's not the dominance at all, just as it's not the empathy at all these.
Speaker 2: In fact, if you look at research on status and also personal power, they did a lot of personality research and one of them looked at the big five, and one of the big five traits is agreeableness, like how people-friendly are you and these things.
Speaker 2: And what the research found is that there is zero correlation to agreeableness, meaning that it doesn't matter how warm and friendly you are.
Speaker 2: That's not where your power comes from, that's not where other people's gets empowered from.
Speaker 2: Mind you, it wasn't a negative correlation.
Speaker 2: If it was a negative correlation, then coldness would have been powerful, but it wasn't coldness or kindness, it was that was irrelevant.
Speaker 2: It was, it was deeper than that.
Speaker 2: So what's an example?
Speaker 2: People who are in their personal power.
Speaker 2: They have a sense of control over their environment, so they're more apt to take responsibility, like they literally experienced that they always see an outlet for them to influence the environment in which they're in.
Speaker 2: So, for example, in voting, voters who feel powerless believe their vote doesn't count.
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm just one of 400 million, basically Right, but an empowered person will think my vote counts, like.
Speaker 2: It's that sense of like.
Speaker 2: I see that my actions have an impact on the environment and as a result of that conclusion or that perspective, people then automatically take responsibility.
Speaker 2: And I put in a few examples of some very famous people, like Bob Iger.
Speaker 2: How did he become the CEO of Disney?
Speaker 2: He was taking responsibility even for the failures.
Speaker 2: It's our modus operandum to say, hey, yeah, I'll associate with wins, but I'll distance myself from failures.
Speaker 2: But in that distancing of our failures, we're communicating to ourselves and to everybody else that we're powerless.
Speaker 2: Right, that's what blame is Like.
Speaker 2: I didn't do it, I wasn't under my control, somebody else did it.
Speaker 2: It's literally the worst thing you can tell others, because they'll respect you less.
Speaker 2: And it's the worst thing you can tell yourself, because you're saying I didn't have an option of control, okay, so why put this in an even bigger picture?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 2: So people who are personally empowered take responsibility for their environment and, as a result of taking responsibility, they then feel like, hey, I have impact over my environment.
Speaker 2: In fact, the definition we should have started with this the definition of personal power is our belief in our own capability to create impact.
Speaker 2: Our belief in our own capability to create impact.
Speaker 2: So, belief in our own capability to create impact, so it's a personal belief we have.
Speaker 2: That's why it's not competitive, but it's a belief that's unconscious and and we can't just like, affirm it into existence.
Speaker 2: It doesn't.
Speaker 2: The unconscious doesn't work that way.
Speaker 2: The unconscious is watching our, our, our behavior, and so when we, when we take responsibility, we begin to communicate to our subconscious.
Speaker 2: Oh, so, when we take responsibility, we begin to communicate to our subconscious.
Speaker 2: Oh, I have power over this.
Speaker 2: And so we see outlets of actual power.
Speaker 2: And now what's interesting is because people who are personally powerful won't let them get away with that blame.
Speaker 2: They'll hold those people accountable.
Speaker 2: So holding others accountable is a natural result of also being empowered, and when you hold others accountable, you break their illusion that they're powerless, right?
Speaker 2: So it's really uncomfortable to be held accountable, but it's also very empowering to be held accountable, because at once you have to face your own, whatever you did wrong, but at the second time you also are forced to confront the fact that you actually can do something about it that's fascinating, um, you know it's.
Speaker 1: It's interesting too because I, I do think certainly, I would say certainly, earlier in my career I fell into this trap of like the kind of the likability thing and like being warm, right, and like that's.
Speaker 1: You know, I think I, you know, in my, in my youth, I must took that for like being able to be, to build like effective relationships we all do, right, you know, because it's like, oh, that's what I'm supposed to act, this way, I'm supposed to be like, you know, a certain way for people to like me and that's going to actually give me some level of like relational power.
Speaker 1: But the reality is like, like it, it's so much deeper than that and if it's hollow, people will figure it out, right, it's almost like I'm almost the opposite end of the spectrum now, where I'm kind of like, eh, take it or leave it, I don't really care, but I'm going to, you know, kind of retain my own integrity and, and you know, I, you know, and in general, that's, that's worked out for me, um, but it's, but it's also caused more conflict, right, and, and you know, I think, where I probably would have gone, gone with the flow, or, or, you know, been been Mr Nice Guy or not said anything.
Speaker 1: Now I would kind of raise my hand and say, well, wait a minute time out.
Speaker 1: This doesn't seem right to me.
Speaker 1: I think we need to go think about this decision a little differently.
Speaker 1: Or I think you've got the read wrong here and we're operating off assumption versus fact, or whatever the scenario is, and in general people might be pissed initially but ultimately realize, oh it's, this was a good thing.
Speaker 1: And so I want to talk about this a little bit, because I think I, I think this is this is not distinctly a male, female thing.
Speaker 1: But I think a lot of times we get into this like this nice and you hear the term nice guys finish last.
Speaker 1: But I think it's broader than that.
Speaker 1: I think it's like a societal, cultural thing where sometimes nice people get trampled on.
Speaker 1: So how can we, in the context of what we're talking about here, this personal power, how can we kind of spot that, be aware of that and for ourselves, make sure that we're not falling into this trap of being so agreeable that people trample all over?
Speaker 2: us.
Speaker 2: It's both genders right, it's nice guys finish last.
Speaker 2: But of course, there's this whole myth of leading with likability and the pressure that women face to be balancing both assertion with being nice, essentially right.
Speaker 2: And again, I just want to point out the research in both personal power and status status being your position, informal position within a hierarchy, the hierarchy of respect, that agreeableness, being nice, has zero correlation, like it literally does not matter how, not how cold or kind you are.
Speaker 2: That's not the factor by which people are evaluating you, even though we tend to see it that way because we can't see deeper.
Speaker 2: And this is where the research has really helped.
Speaker 2: So, when we look at this dynamic, I think that if you were to separate a powerful person from a powerless person, if I were just to simplify it in like the most basic definition oversimplification maybe it would be that powerful people are focused on their own goals.
Speaker 2: Powerless people are focused on the opinions of others.
Speaker 2: So powerless people are focused on their own goals.
Speaker 2: Powerless people really essentially want to be liked by others.
Speaker 2: They care about the evaluation of others and, as a result of caring about that evaluation, we bury our opinions right.
Speaker 2: Sometimes we be nice, we roll over, sometimes we'd even get defensive.
Speaker 2: When we react and we lash out at people, that's also showing insecurity.
Speaker 2: Sometimes we're getting defensive because we care about their opinion.
Speaker 2: If we didn't care, it wouldn't even bother us.
Speaker 2: Whatever it's like having a dog bark at us.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of ways we react, but anyway, I think that's important to keep in mind is for people like you and me, who care about others and care about our team, that value is our goal, that's our value, and so we know when it's coming from the inside out versus when we're doing it out of fear.
Speaker 2: Fear is really the ultimate driver of a people pleaser.
Speaker 2: We use that word negatively and we use that word negatively.
Speaker 2: And so if we're afraid of what others think about us, if we're insecure, we're going to act in a way that we're telling ourselves we're being nice and we're telling ourselves we're being people, people, people, persons.
Speaker 2: But we're really not.
Speaker 2: We're really not.
Speaker 2: We're manipulating.
Speaker 2: Maybe you could even say in context and can you imagine being in a relationship with a spouse, for example, who likes you because they're afraid of you or because they care about your opinion in an insecure way, versus a spouse that loves you because they're coming from their heart and they're just expressing their love for you.
Speaker 2: It's so obvious in relationships that we want the type of people who come from the inside out, not from the outside in, and that's and that's really the big difference between being a likable person, being somebody who values others.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's it's, it's, it's fascinating and I think some of it's just, you know, kind of growing up and becoming more mature, that you know.
Speaker 1: I think you start off with this assumption that people who appear to be, you know, accomplished but are hollow, are kind of aspirational people to be like.
Speaker 1: And then the older you get, you're like oh, there's nothing behind the curtain.
Speaker 1: You know, it's almost like the Wizard of Oz.
Speaker 1: Now I'm in a wicked you know thing because my girls are like singing wicked.
Speaker 1: It's like the Wizard of Oz, right, it's like I've got this all powerful wizard and it's just some dude that's just trying to, you know, just trying to fake it until he makes it and it all comes crashing down.
Speaker 2: And you know what's fascinating.
Speaker 2: I just want to add, you know, like you mentioned, like okay, well then, what can we do about this?
Speaker 2: Right, this is, you're absolutely right, and it is hollow, and here's what we can do about it.
Speaker 2: We're afraid.
Speaker 2: Everybody wants to be part of a group.
Speaker 2: We're afraid sometimes to stand up for what we believe and we want to be likable.
Speaker 2: We're because we think we're actually going to.
Speaker 2: If we're not liked, things are going to go sideways or bad for us or whatever.
Speaker 2: The research is super clear when you come in with boundaries everybody knows that's important to have boundaries, but when you come in with boundaries, people respect you more and the relationship actually becomes healthier.
Speaker 2: So we could you know, we could always talk about boundaries more, but I think that's something that people keep in mind is it's again, it's not about likability or dominance.
Speaker 2: It's about certain deeper behaviors, and one of those behaviors is the self-respect that when you put up your boundaries, people might get upset when they run your boundaries, but but then they're going to respect you more and the relationship is going to get actually stronger yeah so nothing it's it's, it's an interesting, it's like an interesting reframing of of all of this.
Speaker 1: I I want to circle back to something you said, because I think, I think you hear a lot about like manifesting and you know, know, like, like like giving yourself a pep talk or like telling yourself you know, I've got power, I'm powerful, I can do this, you know.
Speaker 1: Or like say it in front of the mirror and and you know you mentioned, you can't just affirm it into existence, right, it's, it's really behavioral and I, and I think but I do think, a lot of it comes down to to mindset.
Speaker 1: So, you know, for those of us that are maybe trying to drive some changes or maybe we are doing work with therapy or meditation and that sort of thing, how should we be thinking about this?
Speaker 1: As opposed to just like repeating affirmations and hoping for the best?
Speaker 1: What are some steps that we can actually start to take to kind of reframe how we think about our own personal power and likability versus actually, you know, being a personally powerful person?
Speaker 2: You mentioned mindset.
Speaker 2: Well, mindset, you're absolutely right.
Speaker 2: Mindset is the crucial factor in personal power, and often, though, what people are affirming is their affirming capability, and that doesn't necessarily work If you're out of your power.
Speaker 2: Research suggests you're out of your power and your affirm capability has no impact because you don't take yourself seriously.
Speaker 2: So, like you know, because you're focused on other people's opinions.
Speaker 2: So what you can do is you can affirm you can come into alignment with yourself.
Speaker 2: So, for example, we talked about the very simplified definition of personal power is a person who's focused on their own goals, and what research has found is that one of the simplest things you can do is, 20 minutes before high stakes situation, sit down with a list of values, pick out your top three, let's say, and then, of that top three, pick out the top one value.
Speaker 2: This is the most important value to me.
Speaker 2: You talk about living purposely, for example, and just write for four minutes why this value is important to you personally not for the situation, necessarily just for you and that plugs you back into yourself and you come into a line with yourself, doing nothing else.
Speaker 2: Research suggests, if you walk into a high stakes situation, you're going to, you're going to knock it out of the ballpark like a power prime, just like that.
Speaker 2: They did this before people came into interviews, 20 minutes before an interview.
Speaker 2: If you prime yourself with personal power, you're 81 percent more likely to get hired.
Speaker 2: Doing nothing else, it's like it almost doubles your chance.
Speaker 2: So it's about mindset, and one of the ways you can really get that mindset, boost that mindset in yourself, is to take a few minutes pause and reflect on your values and your purpose and this is going to fade and then you just do it again and do it again, and that's how you stay aligned.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think there's also.
Speaker 1: I would assume there's probably something to be said for that type of a process.
Speaker 1: I'm guessing that I'm heading in the right direction here.
Speaker 1: It's also about making sure that you're prioritizing your values so that you're not letting other people drive your priorities or the things that matter to you, so that you're not saying yes to everything and then letting everything else fall by the wayside.
Speaker 1: Am I onto?
Speaker 1: Am I onto something there?
Speaker 2: They did some research into workplace courage, like what causes people to be whistleblowers.
Speaker 2: You know, like Edward Snowden, how did he become a whistleblower?
Speaker 2: Um, you know.
Speaker 2: And these people who, who really stand up, and you know Enron case.
Speaker 2: Why?
Speaker 2: Why did people come forward in this stuff when they faced huge backlash?
Speaker 2: And the research found workplace courage depends on two, but basically three factors, and the first was every person who acted courageously.
Speaker 2: Number one is they took responsibility for what was happening.
Speaker 2: They asked themselves the first question is this my responsibility?
Speaker 2: And those who said, yes, this is my responsibility, that mediated courageous action.
Speaker 2: That was the real, that was the root cause of it.
Speaker 2: People who said it's not my responsibility.
Speaker 2: Obviously, they're not going to do anything.
Speaker 2: But what was fascinating is this wasn't just like, hey, this is my formal responsibility.
Speaker 2: A lot of the people they had in the research study.
Speaker 2: They just when those people ask themselves oh, you know, the people who took courageous action, is this my responsibility?
Speaker 2: Often, what they translated that to is am I in a position to be able to do something about this right now?
Speaker 2: Not, is this my role, but can I actually do something in this moment?
Speaker 2: And they all said yes, those who took courageous action.
Speaker 2: They took responsibility.
Speaker 2: So then, after they took responsibility, they asked themselves one more question before they actually took courageous action.
Speaker 2: And the second question is should I act?
Speaker 2: So then, after they took responsibility, they asked himself one more question before they actually took courageous action.
Speaker 2: And the second question is should I act?
Speaker 2: You know that really broke down into two categories those who did versus those who didn't.
Speaker 2: Those who didn't take courageous action.
Speaker 2: They basically they looked at the environment, they looked at, they assessed the threats.
Speaker 2: Right, people are out of their power.
Speaker 2: They're really externally focused.
Speaker 2: So they're more.
Speaker 2: They let fear guide them more.
Speaker 2: So, of course, anytime you're taking courageous action, there's a threat on the external, otherwise it wouldn't be courage.
Speaker 2: But those who said I should, should I act?
Speaker 2: They looked outward and they analyzed the threats and they're like you know, no fear was their guiding factor.
Speaker 2: Those who took courageous action, what they did is they looked inward instead of outward and they said, okay, is this aligned with my values or not?
Speaker 2: And when they said, okay, this is not right and I feel this is not right.
Speaker 2: Right, their eyes were pointed inward.
Speaker 1: That then led them to take the action, yeah, so I think this all to me, it really makes a whole lot of sense.
Speaker 1: It also, I think, when you reflect on people that are really successful, I think almost every single one of them, you could say, whether you like them or not, they do that, they do that right, like there is almost a fanaticism to their personal you know objectives at times and I think it's really kind of it's a fascinating way to kind of think about it.
Speaker 1: So, but we still like to be liked right, like it's still like it's still like nice to be, to be likable Right, and I think and I think it's it can be really uncomfortable for people who who maybe, maybe, struggle with that.
Speaker 1: So so how do we start?
Speaker 1: Small, like, like, where would you recommend that we kind of like reflect on our own actions and figure out okay, where am I maybe too much of a people pleaser or maybe stepping out of my power, being more externally focused versus internally focused on how I think about this?
Speaker 2: you know, I spoke with a uh, a city council member, um, and I was asking her she'd been reelected.
Speaker 2: She was totally just out of nowhere.
Speaker 2: She had gotten elected, she was just a normal, normal mom and uh, and she wanted to make a difference and somehow she ended up doing it, with a lot of work.
Speaker 2: Anyway, she got reelected a few times, even though there was a lot of money against her from the political powers that be, and um and her.
Speaker 2: I asked her what's her philosophy?
Speaker 2: I loved that.
Speaker 2: I asked this question because I got such a beautiful answer from her and she's like you know, because I was asking about liking and pleasing and stuff, and she's like.
Speaker 2: She's like my philosophy is I don't care if you like me, I'm here to serve you, right?
Speaker 2: I mean, wow, like it's.
Speaker 2: That just shows the internal drive and support of other people so that's fascinating to me.
Speaker 1: What a what a great answer, because and I've had a couple guests on the podcast kind of get into this a little bit where there's almost a misunderstanding about what like servant leadership means.
Speaker 1: Right, you know, it doesn't mean that you just do what everybody wants you to do, or keep everybody happy and smiling, and you know kumbaya all the time, but you still, it's more about having a servant mindset and and what.
Speaker 1: What a distinct difference between you.
Speaker 1: Know, I, I'm here to serve you, not to be liked by you.
Speaker 1: Right, like that's a, that's like that.
Speaker 1: Talk about, yeah, that's like a power, that's like a mic drop power, move right there for sure.
Speaker 2: Um, I think sometimes, as I think parents you might, you know, recognize, as a parent, your job isn't to make your kid happy, your job is to make it Well.
Speaker 2: Your job is not to make your kid like you in the moment, right, it's to teach them the lessons that's going to make them the best person they can possibly be.
Speaker 2: That's why I hold the accountability.
Speaker 2: You know like it's a power move.
Speaker 2: Like you hold other people accountable, You're in your own power, you're forcing them to be in their power.
Speaker 2: They might hate you in that moment, but they're going to love you.
Speaker 2: You know that later on, when they see what you've done for them.
Speaker 2: And that's what the beauty about this workplace courage research was was so many people who, when they, when they stood up and they spoke against the norm and they did that workplace courage, at first they got like really serious pushback.
Speaker 2: That's what made it like you know, like like some of their leaders were like yelling at them.
Speaker 2: Um, there's this one example where they were.
Speaker 2: There's a military group in finland and it was like it was so frosty and they were doing this multi-day trek and the medic who's like the youngest, lowest officer in the whole group, he's like people are starting to get frostnip, which is the precondition for right, you're about to get frostbite and their skin's going to die and all this stuff.
Speaker 2: So he has to go to the major who's like this you know the super head, and he's like he's like I got to tell them, I got to tell them, we got to turn around.
Speaker 2: First, he had to make that choice.
Speaker 2: Like am I going to actually do this and try to say, hey, we got to?
Speaker 2: And he's like nope, and he just pulled the medical authority, even though he's like the super junior officer, anyway.
Speaker 2: So they turned around and took him two days to get back and he was saying I'm so glad I did, because people started getting really bad frostbite on the way back and they couldn't even carry their backpacks and stuff.
Speaker 2: And he said after they got back, a short time after that, everybody was obviously the right choice and the major who was attacking him and berating him when he was stepping up into his power ended up giving him a promotion.
Speaker 2: So so when we really stand in our power, in those moments, in the moment it will be uncomfortable, but in the longer perspective, a lot of the times, we're actually rewarded, a lot of the times were actually rewarded.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: And I think what a powerful example of somebody who definitely could have taken the quote easy way out but then fast forward.
Speaker 1: If that would have started happening and they were still on the mission and marching forward and then unable to complete it and had some sort of catastrophic outcome, then somebody would have been pointing a finger and going, well, why didn't you say something?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 1: So it's almost like.
Speaker 1: It's almost like doing doing nothing or not saying anything would have been a catastrophic decision and probably would have, you know, probably could have been a really bad personal outcome for that individual and certainly a horrible outcome for anybody that had a medical issue.
Speaker 1: So, I think, a great example.
Speaker 1: And for the HR professionals that are listening, or people leaders that are listening, I think that's a great story to reflect on.
Speaker 1: Is your team getting frostbite?
Speaker 1: Great story to reflect on.
Speaker 1: You know, is your team getting frostbite and are you keeping quiet when, when there's a you know, a potentially catastrophic incident coming up and, and you know, my, my call to action for for all of you is um, if, if you, if you believe it internally and you know it's the right thing to do, then it's more important to be powerful than liked.
Speaker 2: It's interesting.
Speaker 2: Of course, some people get fired for crossing the managers and all this stuff.
Speaker 2: These cases happen.
Speaker 2: People get fired most often because they're useless.
Speaker 1: I didn't mean to just throw that out there so casually.
Speaker 2: We've got a lot of mic drops today, people are hired and fired based on the value add that they're perceived to provide the organization, and when we are not taking responsibility, we're communicating again that we're not adding value.
Speaker 2: And so if you're there and you know, oh, but it's not my fault, it's not my fault.
Speaker 1: You're just basically saying I'm not the right person for this position.
Speaker 2: Yeah right, right, I love it.
Speaker 2: I's not my fault.
Speaker 2: You're just basically saying I'm not the right person for this position.
Speaker 2: Yeah Right, you know, right, I love it and I think that's a great.
Speaker 2: And to those who are afraid the research is super clear that when you stand up and take responsibility, even for failures, or you stand up right, we think all of this because we're so focused on being liked, we're afraid of anger and resistance that other people show us.
Speaker 2: But the research is super clear that a lot of these, in the long run, we get more respect, we're more liked and we're more likely to get promoted.
Speaker 2: When we're doing these things, like standing up, taking responsibility when things go bad, it doesn't hurt us, even though it feels like it is hurting us.
Speaker 2: It's actually the opposite.
Speaker 1: It might feel hurtful in the moment, but, yeah, yeah, can you come tell my kids that, by the way, Because this weekend when my son lost his phone, he thought I was the worst person in the world, but we had a great day after he lost, after he didn't have his phone.
Speaker 1: With that we're going to transition and I'm really fascinated to hear your responses to the Rebel HR flash-around questions.
Speaker 1: Are you ready?
Speaker 1: Absolutely All right.
Speaker 1: Question number one where do we need to rebel?
Speaker 2: The metaphysical answer is you need to rebel against your own fear right.
Speaker 2: Rebel against the feelings that keep you feeling small.
Speaker 2: Rebel against reacting to your own fears and insecurities.
Speaker 2: The most courageous action you can take is to stand in the face of your own feelings and choose what you know to be right rather than what you feel to be safe.
Speaker 1: I love it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's fascinating to me.
Speaker 1: So we use the term rebel and, you know, rebel HR, of course, is a little bit oxymoronic as a title, but that's really what we're talking about, like, we're talking about, you know, being brave enough to stand up and to own your personal power.
Speaker 1: So I, you know, I think I think for, for, for this audience, um, you know, this is, this is definitely a topic to, to dig into and stand strong in.
Speaker 1: So question number two who, yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 2: Because you mentioned HR and you mentioned this and you know, of course everybody knows we're in to create culture change and these things.
Speaker 2: But there are times where, of course, we cannot create culture change because, uh it well it's.
Speaker 2: Sometimes it's just a behemoth, you know, it's a mammoth undertaking.
Speaker 2: But also, sometimes the executive management is not on board with what we think is the best for the organization.
Speaker 2: And this is why it's so important to empower your employees, because employees don't want to be in an environment where they feel, you know, they're disengaged and all this.
Speaker 2: They feel stress, right, and you're like I want to help you, right, by changing the organization.
Speaker 2: But an employee will actually feel less stress and more engaged when they themselves are empowered, regardless of the environment, right?
Speaker 2: Because an employee who's saying I'm going to work somewhere else because of the culture, well, in one sense they are taking personal responsibility for their somewhere else.
Speaker 2: And if you begin to help employees see that, regardless of the environment, that they have an opportunity, but in order to do that they have to tap into themselves to find that rather than tap outside into an organizational change, then you don't have to feel so restricted by the behemoth organization and trying to make change on a large scale.
Speaker 2: If you make it on the individual scale, that's enough.
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally agree, and I, I, I, through the course of my career, there've been a number of times where I have been so incredibly surprised and impressed when just one, two, three people do that and the, the, the ripple that's created is, you know, it's it, it matters, it really does.
Speaker 1: And so, yeah, I, I appreciate you saying that I totally agree.
Speaker 1: Question number two who should we be listening to?
Speaker 2: just that.
Speaker 2: That's the answer.
Speaker 2: That's the end of your question.
Speaker 1: There you go, I love it, okay, all right.
Speaker 1: Um, and then a final question how can our listeners connect with you and learn more?
Speaker 1: Just that.
Speaker 1: That's the end of your question.
Speaker 1: There you go, I love it, okay, all right.
Speaker 2: And then a final question how can our listeners connect with you and learn more and get their hands on the book.
Speaker 2: Okay, you're going to edit this because I didn't realize.
Speaker 2: I thought there was going to be more to that question, because I was like, who should people listen to?
Speaker 2: You know, my response is obvious People should listen to themselves.
Speaker 2: But how do you do that?
Speaker 2: Right, that's not so easy.
Speaker 2: Well, first you got to just be self-aware, and I think that the biggest step anybody can take you know, I'm teaching a new course on personal power here at the business school at Tulane and, uh, you know I'm going to teach them all.
Speaker 2: We just like, went to the first week and we're going to learn everything about personal power there is, but the first step is awareness and so, like, the first lectures were actually really hard because I'm like, where are you guys not showing up?
Speaker 2: Like, where are you not?
Speaker 2: Where are you blaming?
Speaker 2: Where are you?
Speaker 2: You know, looking outward rather than inward for the answers, like it's like the really uncomfortable stuff.
Speaker 2: So the first step to personal power is self-awareness.
Speaker 1: I love it.
Speaker 1: I love it All right.
Speaker 1: Last question now.
Speaker 1: How can our listeners connect with you?
Speaker 1: I love it All right.
Speaker 1: Last question now.
Speaker 2: How can our listeners connect with you?
Speaker 2: My website, speakvaluecom.
Speaker 2: Of course you can see kind of what I speak on there some of my books but if you're interested in the science of personal power, grab the book on Amazon.
Speaker 2: And if this is something you want to bring into your organization, I'm happy to deliver workshops.
Speaker 2: Or even I can just send you emails and give you some information on tips you can use within your organization.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, or even I can just send you emails and give you some information on tips you can use within your organization.
Speaker 1: Absolutely so.
Speaker 1: The book again the Science of Personal Power how to Build Confidence, create Success and Obtain Freedom.
Speaker 1: It is available now or books are sold.
Speaker 1: Chris, thank you so much for joining us and for putting this out there Really, really great stuff.
Speaker 1: We just scratched the surface, so go get the book and appreciate your time today, chris Pleasure.
Speaker 1: Thank you, kyle.
Speaker 1: Thank you All right.
Speaker 1: That does it for the Rebel HR podcast.
Speaker 1: Big thank you to our guests.
Speaker 1: Follow us on Facebook at Rebel HR podcast, twitter at Rebel HR guy or see our website at rebel human resourcescom.
Speaker 1: The views and opinions expressed by rebel hr podcast are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we represent.
Speaker 1: No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast.
Speaker 1: Baby.