WEBVTT 00:00:03.024 --> 00:00:08.151 This is the Rebel HR podcast, the podcast about all things innovation in the people's space. 00:00:08.151 --> 00:00:09.614 I'm Kyle Rode. 00:00:09.614 --> 00:00:10.595 Let's start the show. 00:00:10.595 --> 00:00:16.522 Welcome back, rebel HR community. 00:00:16.522 --> 00:00:19.486 We are going to have a fun conversation today With us. 00:00:19.486 --> 00:00:21.248 We have an amazing guest, chris Lipp. 00:00:21.248 --> 00:00:30.149 He is a professor at Tulane University and author of the book that is available now where books are sold the Science of Personal Power. 00:00:30.149 --> 00:00:32.473 Chris, welcome to the podcast, thank you. 00:00:32.473 --> 00:00:42.209 Well, I'm really excited to talk about this topic and I think that there's going to be a lot of great insight that you can share with our audience. 00:00:42.209 --> 00:00:44.457 So excited for the conversation today. 00:00:44.457 --> 00:00:52.584 My first question for you that I'd like to understand is what motivated you to write a book about the science of personal power? 00:00:53.506 --> 00:01:03.325 I think all of us in business, particularly in organizations, we sometimes struggle with a sense of identity or that when we're part of something larger, but also it's still our lives that we're living. 00:01:03.325 --> 00:01:09.118 And at first, you know, I was concerned about my voice being heard in this environment. 00:01:09.118 --> 00:01:10.441 Right, how do I stand out? 00:01:10.441 --> 00:01:24.769 How can I actually have a place to stand on that's not standing on sort of a shaky bridge of other people's opinions, and I believed that the way to deal with that was really to kind of be able to influence other people's opinions. 00:01:24.769 --> 00:01:31.001 So I wrote a few books on persuasion. 00:01:31.022 --> 00:01:33.046 Really, I thought communication was the key, which it is one of the most important keys. 00:01:33.046 --> 00:01:46.819 But even with great persuasion, I began to understand, or at least be able to see this dynamic that was happening underneath the conversation, which now I know the words, you know ultimately is the power dynamic that's happening, and we feel it when we walk into a room with our executive management. 00:01:46.819 --> 00:01:54.971 We might feel small, we might feel intimidated or fearful, we might feel like we're overly people pleasing and, you know, basically giving our power away. 00:01:54.971 --> 00:02:10.183 And other times, though, we walk into these environments and we feel confident, we feel strong, we voice our opinions, everybody listens to us, things are working the direction we want it, and all of that is personal power, and so I spent the last. 00:02:10.183 --> 00:02:10.685 I think it was six. 00:02:10.685 --> 00:02:12.068 It's been about six years now that I've been really researching. 00:02:12.068 --> 00:02:15.741 This combined all the research that I did from the last 20 years into the book, the Science of Personal Power. 00:02:17.783 --> 00:02:57.753 So I love the topic because and I think as a recovering people pleaser it definitely resonates with me personally struggle with that, you know, that aspect with kind of the retention of their own personal power and agency and and and balancing the demands of being kind of a people person, right or or or a leader of people or or, you know, an influencer. 00:02:57.753 --> 00:03:22.293 So so, as you were writing this book and and kind of you know, doing doing your research on persuasion and ultimately power, what I guess advice or tips or tricks would you tell somebody who is kind of a natural people pleaser on how to kind of retain your power and not give it away? 00:03:22.293 --> 00:03:28.604 I loved the bridge of other people's opinions as kind of an image there. 00:03:28.604 --> 00:03:30.570 I'm curious what advice you would have for us. 00:03:32.820 --> 00:03:35.609 One of the challenges I think a lot of us face is we like people. 00:03:35.609 --> 00:03:37.341 I mean, we're people, people right. 00:03:37.341 --> 00:03:43.024 And it's in my own life that my highest value is really the people in my life, right, my relationships. 00:03:43.024 --> 00:03:56.888 And what happens is sometimes we get that confused with being nice or being kind of people-pleasing, right, people-pleasing kind of has a negative connotation precisely because we can sense that we're giving our power away, even as we're being nice to so-and-so persons. 00:04:02.562 --> 00:04:03.473 This is going to be edited. 00:04:03.473 --> 00:04:08.860 I assume right my brain just blanked, you're good man, it's, it's all good. 00:04:11.686 --> 00:04:19.125 One of the benefits of personal power is that we don't have to give our power away in order to help other people feel empowered. 00:04:19.125 --> 00:04:21.071 In fact, this is, you know, people pleasing. 00:04:21.071 --> 00:04:26.288 There's this sense that, yeah, we are giving something of ourselves away in the process of pushing others up. 00:04:26.288 --> 00:04:33.653 But real personal power, real personal power, as we stand in our power, others around us get empowered. 00:04:33.653 --> 00:04:35.822 And so, you know, we see this with great leaders. 00:04:35.822 --> 00:04:38.634 I mean, there's a lot of talk about in the nation. 00:04:38.653 --> 00:04:43.906 I'm going to go see Alexander Hamilton the musical soon again, and you know it's all about. 00:04:43.906 --> 00:05:05.942 There's George Washington and all this stuff, and you know, you think about George Washington as a leader, and here's a, here's a man that we associate with super strong power, but at the same time, he's empowering other people around him, you know, and they're creating a nation, and so personal power is something that is that rubs off on other people too, but it's not people pleasing. 00:05:05.942 --> 00:05:09.156 It's a certain way of being, it's a certain way of and we'll talk. 00:05:09.156 --> 00:05:11.526 I'm sure you're going to ask questions about this, but I'm happy to discuss. 00:05:11.526 --> 00:05:13.521 You know what, what, where does that really come from? 00:05:13.521 --> 00:05:14.444 How does that show up? 00:05:15.365 --> 00:05:18.252 Yeah, yeah, no, I think it's, it's a fascinating. 00:05:18.252 --> 00:05:40.877 It's a fascinating topic because I think many of us certainly certainly if we were raised to be humble or not brag too much or not cause too many waves we really struggle with this idea of personal power because it almost feels like aggressive. 00:05:40.877 --> 00:05:46.663 Even the term power there, you know it's, there's, there's associated aggression there. 00:05:46.663 --> 00:05:50.512 But you know, what I'm hearing you say is that it's not about. 00:05:50.512 --> 00:05:58.100 It's not about like a a win, I win, you lose, kind of a thing you know you're you're talking about. 00:05:58.100 --> 00:06:00.026 You're talking about something that kind of. 00:06:00.026 --> 00:06:23.331 You know it is about elevating everybody's power and and my assumption is that the research proves out that if everybody feels empowered and everybody feels that they can kind of have their own voice and retain their, their, their own personal power, then you find much more success in whatever endeavors you're you're approaching right. 00:06:23.331 --> 00:06:37.009 So help me unpack a little bit the difference between what our common definition of power is versus what you're talking about here, which I think they're slightly kind of different definitions. 00:06:37.490 --> 00:06:39.185 Yeah, well, you know what the first thing to understand is. 00:06:39.185 --> 00:06:41.187 I'm not talking about soft, fuzzy power either. 00:06:41.187 --> 00:06:47.810 I'm not talking about community power and what we generally associate with empowerment, with these sort of empathic leadership. 00:06:47.810 --> 00:06:48.812 So there's this. 00:06:48.812 --> 00:06:53.576 I think what I call it is like a false dichotomy in society today. 00:06:53.576 --> 00:06:58.887 You're either an alpha dominator or you're this empathic, connected leader. 00:06:58.887 --> 00:07:01.692 And so you know. 00:07:01.692 --> 00:07:05.848 And the truth is you know, we've seen both types of leaders succeed. 00:07:05.848 --> 00:07:08.348 We've seen both types of leaders be respected. 00:07:08.680 --> 00:07:18.089 In fact, bill Gates is commonly thought of as a dominator and if you look at the history of himself in Microsoft, you know he was super dominant and he would shout people down and he would insult them when they gave bad ideas. 00:07:18.089 --> 00:07:23.048 And his employees loved him and they said that it brought out the best in them Right. 00:07:23.048 --> 00:07:33.439 But other times you get other people, like Harvey Weinstein, who's like the anathema of a leader, right, and you could argue he's we would put the same label like a dominator on him, and yet everybody hates him. 00:07:33.439 --> 00:07:35.023 And so you know it's not. 00:07:35.023 --> 00:07:39.932 It's not the dominance at all, just as it's not the empathy at all these. 00:07:39.932 --> 00:07:53.413 In fact, if you look at research on status and also personal power, they did a lot of personality research and one of them looked at the big five, and one of the big five traits is agreeableness, like how people-friendly are you and these things. 00:07:53.413 --> 00:08:01.639 And what the research found is that there is zero correlation to agreeableness, meaning that it doesn't matter how warm and friendly you are. 00:08:01.639 --> 00:08:04.985 That's not where your power comes from, that's not where other people's gets empowered from. 00:08:04.985 --> 00:08:07.932 Mind you, it wasn't a negative correlation. 00:08:07.932 --> 00:08:13.245 If it was a negative correlation, then coldness would have been powerful, but it wasn't coldness or kindness, it was that was irrelevant. 00:08:13.245 --> 00:08:14.889 It was, it was deeper than that. 00:08:15.610 --> 00:08:16.333 So what's an example? 00:08:16.333 --> 00:08:19.305 People who are in their personal power. 00:08:19.305 --> 00:08:29.175 They have a sense of control over their environment, so they're more apt to take responsibility, like they literally experienced that they always see an outlet for them to influence the environment in which they're in. 00:08:29.175 --> 00:08:33.441 So, for example, in voting, voters who feel powerless believe their vote doesn't count. 00:08:33.441 --> 00:08:38.523 Oh, I'm just one of 400 million, basically Right, but an empowered person will think my vote counts, like. 00:08:38.523 --> 00:08:39.687 It's that sense of like. 00:08:39.687 --> 00:08:48.235 I see that my actions have an impact on the environment and as a result of that conclusion or that perspective, people then automatically take responsibility. 00:08:48.235 --> 00:08:52.048 And I put in a few examples of some very famous people, like Bob Iger. 00:08:52.048 --> 00:08:54.235 How did he become the CEO of Disney? 00:08:54.235 --> 00:08:56.666 He was taking responsibility even for the failures. 00:08:57.168 --> 00:09:01.982 It's our modus operandum to say, hey, yeah, I'll associate with wins, but I'll distance myself from failures. 00:09:01.982 --> 00:09:07.192 But in that distancing of our failures, we're communicating to ourselves and to everybody else that we're powerless. 00:09:07.192 --> 00:09:08.321 Right, that's what blame is Like. 00:09:08.321 --> 00:09:11.094 I didn't do it, I wasn't under my control, somebody else did it. 00:09:11.094 --> 00:09:14.125 It's literally the worst thing you can tell others, because they'll respect you less. 00:09:14.125 --> 00:09:22.753 And it's the worst thing you can tell yourself, because you're saying I didn't have an option of control, okay, so why put this in an even bigger picture? 00:09:22.753 --> 00:09:22.913 Right? 00:09:22.932 --> 00:09:34.453 So people who are personally empowered take responsibility for their environment and, as a result of taking responsibility, they then feel like, hey, I have impact over my environment. 00:09:34.453 --> 00:09:42.254 In fact, the definition we should have started with this the definition of personal power is our belief in our own capability to create impact. 00:09:42.254 --> 00:09:44.029 Our belief in our own capability to create impact. 00:09:44.029 --> 00:09:46.745 So, belief in our own capability to create impact, so it's a personal belief we have. 00:09:46.745 --> 00:09:53.808 That's why it's not competitive, but it's a belief that's unconscious and and we can't just like, affirm it into existence. 00:09:53.889 --> 00:09:54.210 It doesn't. 00:09:54.210 --> 00:09:55.926 The unconscious doesn't work that way. 00:09:55.926 --> 00:10:04.808 The unconscious is watching our, our, our behavior, and so when we, when we take responsibility, we begin to communicate to our subconscious. 00:10:04.808 --> 00:10:19.024 Oh, so, when we take responsibility, we begin to communicate to our subconscious. 00:10:19.024 --> 00:10:19.706 Oh, I have power over this. 00:10:19.706 --> 00:10:20.726 And so we see outlets of actual power. 00:10:20.726 --> 00:10:25.134 And now what's interesting is because people who are personally powerful won't let them get away with that blame. 00:10:25.134 --> 00:10:26.556 They'll hold those people accountable. 00:10:26.556 --> 00:10:36.443 So holding others accountable is a natural result of also being empowered, and when you hold others accountable, you break their illusion that they're powerless, right? 00:10:36.443 --> 00:10:54.692 So it's really uncomfortable to be held accountable, but it's also very empowering to be held accountable, because at once you have to face your own, whatever you did wrong, but at the second time you also are forced to confront the fact that you actually can do something about it that's fascinating, um, you know it's. 00:10:54.832 --> 00:11:07.681 It's interesting too because I, I do think certainly, I would say certainly, earlier in my career I fell into this trap of like the kind of the likability thing and like being warm, right, and like that's. 00:11:07.681 --> 00:11:30.480 You know, I think I, you know, in my, in my youth, I must took that for like being able to be, to build like effective relationships we all do, right, you know, because it's like, oh, that's what I'm supposed to act, this way, I'm supposed to be like, you know, a certain way for people to like me and that's going to actually give me some level of like relational power. 00:11:30.480 --> 00:12:05.171 But the reality is like, like it, it's so much deeper than that and if it's hollow, people will figure it out, right, it's almost like I'm almost the opposite end of the spectrum now, where I'm kind of like, eh, take it or leave it, I don't really care, but I'm going to, you know, kind of retain my own integrity and, and you know, I, you know, and in general, that's, that's worked out for me, um, but it's, but it's also caused more conflict, right, and, and you know, I think, where I probably would have gone, gone with the flow, or, or, you know, been been Mr Nice Guy or not said anything. 00:12:05.171 --> 00:12:08.153 Now I would kind of raise my hand and say, well, wait a minute time out. 00:12:08.153 --> 00:12:09.995 This doesn't seem right to me. 00:12:09.995 --> 00:12:15.549 I think we need to go think about this decision a little differently. 00:12:15.570 --> 00:12:29.869 Or I think you've got the read wrong here and we're operating off assumption versus fact, or whatever the scenario is, and in general people might be pissed initially but ultimately realize, oh it's, this was a good thing. 00:12:29.869 --> 00:12:39.711 And so I want to talk about this a little bit, because I think I, I think this is this is not distinctly a male, female thing. 00:12:39.711 --> 00:12:47.513 But I think a lot of times we get into this like this nice and you hear the term nice guys finish last. 00:12:47.513 --> 00:12:49.726 But I think it's broader than that. 00:12:49.726 --> 00:12:54.572 I think it's like a societal, cultural thing where sometimes nice people get trampled on. 00:12:54.572 --> 00:13:10.048 So how can we, in the context of what we're talking about here, this personal power, how can we kind of spot that, be aware of that and for ourselves, make sure that we're not falling into this trap of being so agreeable that people trample all over? 00:13:10.107 --> 00:13:10.187 us. 00:13:10.187 --> 00:13:14.307 It's both genders right, it's nice guys finish last. 00:13:14.307 --> 00:13:23.620 But of course, there's this whole myth of leading with likability and the pressure that women face to be balancing both assertion with being nice, essentially right. 00:13:23.620 --> 00:13:39.152 And again, I just want to point out the research in both personal power and status status being your position, informal position within a hierarchy, the hierarchy of respect, that agreeableness, being nice, has zero correlation, like it literally does not matter how, not how cold or kind you are. 00:13:39.152 --> 00:13:45.980 That's not the factor by which people are evaluating you, even though we tend to see it that way because we can't see deeper. 00:13:45.980 --> 00:13:47.964 And this is where the research has really helped. 00:13:48.806 --> 00:14:04.404 So, when we look at this dynamic, I think that if you were to separate a powerful person from a powerless person, if I were just to simplify it in like the most basic definition oversimplification maybe it would be that powerful people are focused on their own goals. 00:14:04.404 --> 00:14:10.904 Powerless people are focused on the opinions of others. 00:14:10.904 --> 00:14:11.950 So powerless people are focused on their own goals. 00:14:11.950 --> 00:14:13.275 Powerless people really essentially want to be liked by others. 00:14:13.275 --> 00:14:20.019 They care about the evaluation of others and, as a result of caring about that evaluation, we bury our opinions right. 00:14:20.019 --> 00:14:25.452 Sometimes we be nice, we roll over, sometimes we'd even get defensive. 00:14:25.452 --> 00:14:30.846 When we react and we lash out at people, that's also showing insecurity. 00:14:30.846 --> 00:14:34.328 Sometimes we're getting defensive because we care about their opinion. 00:14:34.328 --> 00:14:37.850 If we didn't care, it wouldn't even bother us. 00:14:37.850 --> 00:14:40.128 Whatever it's like having a dog bark at us. 00:14:40.128 --> 00:15:01.860 There's a lot of ways we react, but anyway, I think that's important to keep in mind is for people like you and me, who care about others and care about our team, that value is our goal, that's our value, and so we know when it's coming from the inside out versus when we're doing it out of fear. 00:15:02.571 --> 00:15:05.880 Fear is really the ultimate driver of a people pleaser. 00:15:05.880 --> 00:15:09.933 We use that word negatively and we use that word negatively. 00:15:09.933 --> 00:15:21.524 And so if we're afraid of what others think about us, if we're insecure, we're going to act in a way that we're telling ourselves we're being nice and we're telling ourselves we're being people, people, people, persons. 00:15:21.524 --> 00:15:22.346 But we're really not. 00:15:22.346 --> 00:15:23.687 We're really not. 00:15:23.687 --> 00:15:25.067 We're manipulating. 00:15:25.067 --> 00:15:46.635 Maybe you could even say in context and can you imagine being in a relationship with a spouse, for example, who likes you because they're afraid of you or because they care about your opinion in an insecure way, versus a spouse that loves you because they're coming from their heart and they're just expressing their love for you. 00:15:46.635 --> 00:15:58.615 It's so obvious in relationships that we want the type of people who come from the inside out, not from the outside in, and that's and that's really the big difference between being a likable person, being somebody who values others. 00:16:01.350 --> 00:16:11.833 Yeah, I think it's it's, it's, it's fascinating and I think some of it's just, you know, kind of growing up and becoming more mature, that you know. 00:16:11.833 --> 00:16:28.147 I think you start off with this assumption that people who appear to be, you know, accomplished but are hollow, are kind of aspirational people to be like. 00:16:28.147 --> 00:16:31.500 And then the older you get, you're like oh, there's nothing behind the curtain. 00:16:31.500 --> 00:16:32.936 You know, it's almost like the Wizard of Oz. 00:16:32.936 --> 00:16:35.916 Now I'm in a wicked you know thing because my girls are like singing wicked. 00:16:35.916 --> 00:16:47.177 It's like the Wizard of Oz, right, it's like I've got this all powerful wizard and it's just some dude that's just trying to, you know, just trying to fake it until he makes it and it all comes crashing down. 00:16:47.638 --> 00:16:48.438 And you know what's fascinating. 00:16:48.438 --> 00:16:52.205 I just want to add, you know, like you mentioned, like okay, well then, what can we do about this? 00:16:52.205 --> 00:16:57.996 Right, this is, you're absolutely right, and it is hollow, and here's what we can do about it. 00:16:57.996 --> 00:16:59.081 We're afraid. 00:16:59.081 --> 00:17:00.975 Everybody wants to be part of a group. 00:17:00.975 --> 00:17:07.123 We're afraid sometimes to stand up for what we believe and we want to be likable. 00:17:07.123 --> 00:17:13.172 We're because we think we're actually going to. 00:17:13.172 --> 00:17:15.576 If we're not liked, things are going to go sideways or bad for us or whatever. 00:17:16.498 --> 00:17:26.999 The research is super clear when you come in with boundaries everybody knows that's important to have boundaries, but when you come in with boundaries, people respect you more and the relationship actually becomes healthier. 00:17:26.999 --> 00:17:35.762 So we could you know, we could always talk about boundaries more, but I think that's something that people keep in mind is it's again, it's not about likability or dominance. 00:17:35.762 --> 00:17:58.278 It's about certain deeper behaviors, and one of those behaviors is the self-respect that when you put up your boundaries, people might get upset when they run your boundaries, but but then they're going to respect you more and the relationship is going to get actually stronger yeah so nothing it's it's, it's an interesting, it's like an interesting reframing of of all of this. 00:17:58.337 --> 00:18:16.458 I I want to circle back to something you said, because I think, I think you hear a lot about like manifesting and you know, know, like, like like giving yourself a pep talk or like telling yourself you know, I've got power, I'm powerful, I can do this, you know. 00:18:16.458 --> 00:18:35.690 Or like say it in front of the mirror and and you know you mentioned, you can't just affirm it into existence, right, it's, it's really behavioral and I, and I think but I do think, a lot of it comes down to to mindset. 00:18:35.690 --> 00:18:46.298 So, you know, for those of us that are maybe trying to drive some changes or maybe we are doing work with therapy or meditation and that sort of thing, how should we be thinking about this? 00:18:46.298 --> 00:18:50.316 As opposed to just like repeating affirmations and hoping for the best? 00:18:50.316 --> 00:19:05.804 What are some steps that we can actually start to take to kind of reframe how we think about our own personal power and likability versus actually, you know, being a personally powerful person? 00:19:07.329 --> 00:19:07.993 You mentioned mindset. 00:19:07.993 --> 00:19:09.140 Well, mindset, you're absolutely right. 00:19:09.140 --> 00:19:17.737 Mindset is the crucial factor in personal power, and often, though, what people are affirming is their affirming capability, and that doesn't necessarily work If you're out of your power. 00:19:17.737 --> 00:19:23.210 Research suggests you're out of your power and your affirm capability has no impact because you don't take yourself seriously. 00:19:23.210 --> 00:19:26.694 So, like you know, because you're focused on other people's opinions. 00:19:26.694 --> 00:19:33.826 So what you can do is you can affirm you can come into alignment with yourself. 00:19:33.826 --> 00:19:55.431 So, for example, we talked about the very simplified definition of personal power is a person who's focused on their own goals, and what research has found is that one of the simplest things you can do is, 20 minutes before high stakes situation, sit down with a list of values, pick out your top three, let's say, and then, of that top three, pick out the top one value. 00:19:55.431 --> 00:19:56.333 This is the most important value to me. 00:19:56.353 --> 00:20:09.454 You talk about living purposely, for example, and just write for four minutes why this value is important to you personally not for the situation, necessarily just for you and that plugs you back into yourself and you come into a line with yourself, doing nothing else. 00:20:09.454 --> 00:20:16.345 Research suggests, if you walk into a high stakes situation, you're going to, you're going to knock it out of the ballpark like a power prime, just like that. 00:20:16.345 --> 00:20:20.000 They did this before people came into interviews, 20 minutes before an interview. 00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:24.160 If you prime yourself with personal power, you're 81 percent more likely to get hired. 00:20:24.160 --> 00:20:27.237 Doing nothing else, it's like it almost doubles your chance. 00:20:27.237 --> 00:20:42.517 So it's about mindset, and one of the ways you can really get that mindset, boost that mindset in yourself, is to take a few minutes pause and reflect on your values and your purpose and this is going to fade and then you just do it again and do it again, and that's how you stay aligned. 00:20:43.480 --> 00:20:46.175 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think there's also. 00:20:46.175 --> 00:20:51.519 I would assume there's probably something to be said for that type of a process. 00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:57.401 I'm guessing that I'm heading in the right direction here. 00:20:57.401 --> 00:21:13.846 It's also about making sure that you're prioritizing your values so that you're not letting other people drive your priorities or the things that matter to you, so that you're not saying yes to everything and then letting everything else fall by the wayside. 00:21:13.846 --> 00:21:14.406 Am I onto? 00:21:14.406 --> 00:21:15.411 Am I onto something there? 00:21:16.353 --> 00:21:20.222 They did some research into workplace courage, like what causes people to be whistleblowers. 00:21:20.222 --> 00:21:22.340 You know, like Edward Snowden, how did he become a whistleblower? 00:21:22.340 --> 00:21:23.286 Um, you know. 00:21:23.286 --> 00:21:26.653 And these people who, who really stand up, and you know Enron case. 00:21:26.653 --> 00:21:26.853 Why? 00:21:26.853 --> 00:21:29.737 Why did people come forward in this stuff when they faced huge backlash? 00:21:31.659 --> 00:21:40.336 And the research found workplace courage depends on two, but basically three factors, and the first was every person who acted courageously. 00:21:40.336 --> 00:21:44.971 Number one is they took responsibility for what was happening. 00:21:44.971 --> 00:21:47.583 They asked themselves the first question is this my responsibility? 00:21:47.583 --> 00:21:52.471 And those who said, yes, this is my responsibility, that mediated courageous action. 00:21:52.471 --> 00:21:54.458 That was the real, that was the root cause of it. 00:21:54.458 --> 00:21:56.252 People who said it's not my responsibility. 00:21:56.252 --> 00:21:57.615 Obviously, they're not going to do anything. 00:21:57.615 --> 00:22:02.678 But what was fascinating is this wasn't just like, hey, this is my formal responsibility. 00:22:02.678 --> 00:22:05.250 A lot of the people they had in the research study. 00:22:05.250 --> 00:22:12.204 They just when those people ask themselves oh, you know, the people who took courageous action, is this my responsibility? 00:22:12.204 --> 00:22:17.942 Often, what they translated that to is am I in a position to be able to do something about this right now? 00:22:17.942 --> 00:22:22.320 Not, is this my role, but can I actually do something in this moment? 00:22:22.320 --> 00:22:24.636 And they all said yes, those who took courageous action. 00:22:24.636 --> 00:22:25.559 They took responsibility. 00:22:25.559 --> 00:22:30.971 So then, after they took responsibility, they asked themselves one more question before they actually took courageous action. 00:22:30.971 --> 00:22:32.951 And the second question is should I act? 00:22:32.951 --> 00:22:35.932 So then, after they took responsibility, they asked himself one more question before they actually took courageous action. 00:22:35.932 --> 00:22:37.594 And the second question is should I act? 00:22:37.653 --> 00:22:41.174 You know that really broke down into two categories those who did versus those who didn't. 00:22:41.174 --> 00:22:43.915 Those who didn't take courageous action. 00:22:43.915 --> 00:22:46.957 They basically they looked at the environment, they looked at, they assessed the threats. 00:22:46.957 --> 00:22:49.137 Right, people are out of their power. 00:22:49.137 --> 00:22:50.378 They're really externally focused. 00:22:50.378 --> 00:22:52.138 So they're more. 00:22:52.138 --> 00:22:54.339 They let fear guide them more. 00:22:54.339 --> 00:22:58.582 So, of course, anytime you're taking courageous action, there's a threat on the external, otherwise it wouldn't be courage. 00:22:58.582 --> 00:23:01.082 But those who said I should, should I act? 00:23:01.082 --> 00:23:05.743 They looked outward and they analyzed the threats and they're like you know, no fear was their guiding factor. 00:23:05.743 --> 00:23:12.767 Those who took courageous action, what they did is they looked inward instead of outward and they said, okay, is this aligned with my values or not? 00:23:12.767 --> 00:23:17.387 And when they said, okay, this is not right and I feel this is not right. 00:23:17.387 --> 00:23:18.568 Right, their eyes were pointed inward. 00:23:22.313 --> 00:23:35.153 That then led them to take the action, yeah, so I think this all to me, it really makes a whole lot of sense. 00:23:35.153 --> 00:24:08.111 It also, I think, when you reflect on people that are really successful, I think almost every single one of them, you could say, whether you like them or not, they do that, they do that right, like there is almost a fanaticism to their personal you know objectives at times and I think it's really kind of it's a fascinating way to kind of think about it. 00:24:08.111 --> 00:24:27.273 So, but we still like to be liked right, like it's still like it's still like nice to be, to be likable Right, and I think and I think it's it can be really uncomfortable for people who who maybe, maybe, struggle with that. 00:24:27.273 --> 00:24:29.847 So so how do we start? 00:24:29.847 --> 00:24:47.788 Small, like, like, where would you recommend that we kind of like reflect on our own actions and figure out okay, where am I maybe too much of a people pleaser or maybe stepping out of my power, being more externally focused versus internally focused on how I think about this? 00:24:50.490 --> 00:24:58.454 you know, I spoke with a uh, a city council member, um, and I was asking her she'd been reelected. 00:24:58.454 --> 00:24:59.955 She was totally just out of nowhere. 00:24:59.955 --> 00:25:10.211 She had gotten elected, she was just a normal, normal mom and uh, and she wanted to make a difference and somehow she ended up doing it, with a lot of work. 00:25:10.211 --> 00:25:18.396 Anyway, she got reelected a few times, even though there was a lot of money against her from the political powers that be, and um and her. 00:25:18.396 --> 00:25:19.500 I asked her what's her philosophy? 00:25:19.500 --> 00:25:21.164 I loved that. 00:25:21.164 --> 00:25:27.791 I asked this question because I got such a beautiful answer from her and she's like you know, because I was asking about liking and pleasing and stuff, and she's like. 00:25:27.791 --> 00:25:36.855 She's like my philosophy is I don't care if you like me, I'm here to serve you, right? 00:25:36.855 --> 00:25:38.999 I mean, wow, like it's. 00:25:38.999 --> 00:25:46.653 That just shows the internal drive and support of other people so that's fascinating to me. 00:25:46.712 --> 00:26:00.115 What a what a great answer, because and I've had a couple guests on the podcast kind of get into this a little bit where there's almost a misunderstanding about what like servant leadership means. 00:26:00.115 --> 00:26:15.112 Right, you know, it doesn't mean that you just do what everybody wants you to do, or keep everybody happy and smiling, and you know kumbaya all the time, but you still, it's more about having a servant mindset and and what. 00:26:15.112 --> 00:26:18.308 What a distinct difference between you. 00:26:18.308 --> 00:26:21.739 Know, I, I'm here to serve you, not to be liked by you. 00:26:21.739 --> 00:26:23.844 Right, like that's a, that's like that. 00:26:23.844 --> 00:26:27.801 Talk about, yeah, that's like a power, that's like a mic drop power, move right there for sure. 00:26:30.266 --> 00:26:38.655 Um, I think sometimes, as I think parents you might, you know, recognize, as a parent, your job isn't to make your kid happy, your job is to make it Well. 00:26:38.655 --> 00:26:45.023 Your job is not to make your kid like you in the moment, right, it's to teach them the lessons that's going to make them the best person they can possibly be. 00:26:45.023 --> 00:26:47.150 That's why I hold the accountability. 00:26:47.150 --> 00:26:48.840 You know like it's a power move. 00:26:48.840 --> 00:26:53.608 Like you hold other people accountable, You're in your own power, you're forcing them to be in their power. 00:26:53.608 --> 00:26:57.174 They might hate you in that moment, but they're going to love you. 00:26:57.174 --> 00:27:00.067 You know that later on, when they see what you've done for them. 00:27:00.470 --> 00:27:11.787 And that's what the beauty about this workplace courage research was was so many people who, when they, when they stood up and they spoke against the norm and they did that workplace courage, at first they got like really serious pushback. 00:27:11.787 --> 00:27:15.813 That's what made it like you know, like like some of their leaders were like yelling at them. 00:27:15.813 --> 00:27:18.776 Um, there's this one example where they were. 00:27:18.776 --> 00:27:33.731 There's a military group in finland and it was like it was so frosty and they were doing this multi-day trek and the medic who's like the youngest, lowest officer in the whole group, he's like people are starting to get frostnip, which is the precondition for right, you're about to get frostbite and their skin's going to die and all this stuff. 00:27:33.731 --> 00:27:47.048 So he has to go to the major who's like this you know the super head, and he's like he's like I got to tell them, I got to tell them, we got to turn around. 00:27:47.390 --> 00:27:48.671 First, he had to make that choice. 00:27:48.671 --> 00:27:50.613 Like am I going to actually do this and try to say, hey, we got to? 00:27:50.613 --> 00:27:54.938 And he's like nope, and he just pulled the medical authority, even though he's like the super junior officer, anyway. 00:27:54.938 --> 00:28:02.786 So they turned around and took him two days to get back and he was saying I'm so glad I did, because people started getting really bad frostbite on the way back and they couldn't even carry their backpacks and stuff. 00:28:02.786 --> 00:28:20.352 And he said after they got back, a short time after that, everybody was obviously the right choice and the major who was attacking him and berating him when he was stepping up into his power ended up giving him a promotion. 00:28:20.352 --> 00:28:31.619 So so when we really stand in our power, in those moments, in the moment it will be uncomfortable, but in the longer perspective, a lot of the times, we're actually rewarded, a lot of the times were actually rewarded. 00:28:33.202 --> 00:28:33.523 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:28:33.523 --> 00:28:45.627 And I think what a powerful example of somebody who definitely could have taken the quote easy way out but then fast forward. 00:28:45.627 --> 00:29:00.644 If that would have started happening and they were still on the mission and marching forward and then unable to complete it and had some sort of catastrophic outcome, then somebody would have been pointing a finger and going, well, why didn't you say something? 00:29:00.644 --> 00:29:01.067 Right? 00:29:01.067 --> 00:29:01.942 So it's almost like. 00:29:01.942 --> 00:29:18.551 It's almost like doing doing nothing or not saying anything would have been a catastrophic decision and probably would have, you know, probably could have been a really bad personal outcome for that individual and certainly a horrible outcome for anybody that had a medical issue. 00:29:18.551 --> 00:29:22.810 So, I think, a great example. 00:29:22.891 --> 00:29:29.851 And for the HR professionals that are listening, or people leaders that are listening, I think that's a great story to reflect on. 00:29:29.851 --> 00:29:32.326 Is your team getting frostbite? 00:29:32.326 --> 00:29:35.260 Great story to reflect on. 00:29:35.260 --> 00:29:52.167 You know, is your team getting frostbite and are you keeping quiet when, when there's a you know, a potentially catastrophic incident coming up and, and you know, my, my call to action for for all of you is um, if, if you, if you believe it internally and you know it's the right thing to do, then it's more important to be powerful than liked. 00:29:54.071 --> 00:29:54.633 It's interesting. 00:29:54.633 --> 00:29:59.900 Of course, some people get fired for crossing the managers and all this stuff. 00:29:59.900 --> 00:30:01.144 These cases happen. 00:30:01.144 --> 00:30:03.828 People get fired most often because they're useless. 00:30:06.921 --> 00:30:08.467 I didn't mean to just throw that out there so casually. 00:30:10.319 --> 00:30:25.894 We've got a lot of mic drops today, people are hired and fired based on the value add that they're perceived to provide the organization, and when we are not taking responsibility, we're communicating again that we're not adding value. 00:30:25.894 --> 00:30:29.636 And so if you're there and you know, oh, but it's not my fault, it's not my fault. 00:30:33.365 --> 00:30:36.278 You're just basically saying I'm not the right person for this position. 00:30:38.460 --> 00:30:38.671 Yeah right, right, I love it. 00:30:38.671 --> 00:30:38.748 I's not my fault. 00:30:38.748 --> 00:30:40.239 You're just basically saying I'm not the right person for this position. 00:30:40.239 --> 00:30:41.577 Yeah Right, you know, right, I love it and I think that's a great. 00:30:41.577 --> 00:30:52.974 And to those who are afraid the research is super clear that when you stand up and take responsibility, even for failures, or you stand up right, we think all of this because we're so focused on being liked, we're afraid of anger and resistance that other people show us. 00:30:52.974 --> 00:31:00.285 But the research is super clear that a lot of these, in the long run, we get more respect, we're more liked and we're more likely to get promoted. 00:31:00.285 --> 00:31:09.653 When we're doing these things, like standing up, taking responsibility when things go bad, it doesn't hurt us, even though it feels like it is hurting us. 00:31:09.653 --> 00:31:10.501 It's actually the opposite. 00:31:11.042 --> 00:31:27.488 It might feel hurtful in the moment, but, yeah, yeah, can you come tell my kids that, by the way, Because this weekend when my son lost his phone, he thought I was the worst person in the world, but we had a great day after he lost, after he didn't have his phone. 00:31:27.488 --> 00:31:34.989 With that we're going to transition and I'm really fascinated to hear your responses to the Rebel HR flash-around questions. 00:31:34.989 --> 00:31:35.450 Are you ready? 00:31:35.450 --> 00:31:37.574 Absolutely All right. 00:31:37.574 --> 00:31:40.490 Question number one where do we need to rebel? 00:31:46.280 --> 00:31:50.932 The metaphysical answer is you need to rebel against your own fear right. 00:31:50.932 --> 00:31:55.348 Rebel against the feelings that keep you feeling small. 00:31:55.348 --> 00:31:59.050 Rebel against reacting to your own fears and insecurities. 00:31:59.050 --> 00:32:08.566 The most courageous action you can take is to stand in the face of your own feelings and choose what you know to be right rather than what you feel to be safe. 00:32:10.351 --> 00:32:10.731 I love it. 00:32:10.731 --> 00:32:12.867 Yeah, it's fascinating to me. 00:32:12.867 --> 00:32:28.913 So we use the term rebel and, you know, rebel HR, of course, is a little bit oxymoronic as a title, but that's really what we're talking about, like, we're talking about, you know, being brave enough to stand up and to own your personal power. 00:32:28.913 --> 00:32:37.846 So I, you know, I think I think for, for, for this audience, um, you know, this is, this is definitely a topic to, to dig into and stand strong in. 00:32:37.846 --> 00:32:40.373 So question number two who, yeah, go ahead. 00:32:42.040 --> 00:32:49.926 Because you mentioned HR and you mentioned this and you know, of course everybody knows we're in to create culture change and these things. 00:32:49.926 --> 00:32:53.963 But there are times where, of course, we cannot create culture change because, uh it well it's. 00:32:53.963 --> 00:32:59.054 Sometimes it's just a behemoth, you know, it's a mammoth undertaking. 00:32:59.054 --> 00:33:04.001 But also, sometimes the executive management is not on board with what we think is the best for the organization. 00:33:04.364 --> 00:33:10.765 And this is why it's so important to empower your employees, because employees don't want to be in an environment where they feel, you know, they're disengaged and all this. 00:33:10.765 --> 00:33:13.991 They feel stress, right, and you're like I want to help you, right, by changing the organization. 00:33:13.991 --> 00:33:19.884 But an employee will actually feel less stress and more engaged when they themselves are empowered, regardless of the environment, right? 00:33:19.884 --> 00:33:31.010 Because an employee who's saying I'm going to work somewhere else because of the culture, well, in one sense they are taking personal responsibility for their somewhere else. 00:33:31.010 --> 00:33:51.338 And if you begin to help employees see that, regardless of the environment, that they have an opportunity, but in order to do that they have to tap into themselves to find that rather than tap outside into an organizational change, then you don't have to feel so restricted by the behemoth organization and trying to make change on a large scale. 00:33:51.338 --> 00:33:54.785 If you make it on the individual scale, that's enough. 00:33:55.826 --> 00:34:18.036 Yeah, totally agree, and I, I, I, through the course of my career, there've been a number of times where I have been so incredibly surprised and impressed when just one, two, three people do that and the, the, the ripple that's created is, you know, it's it, it matters, it really does. 00:34:18.036 --> 00:34:21.447 And so, yeah, I, I appreciate you saying that I totally agree. 00:34:21.447 --> 00:34:24.880 Question number two who should we be listening to? 00:34:28.347 --> 00:34:28.909 just that. 00:34:28.909 --> 00:34:29.769 That's the answer. 00:34:29.769 --> 00:34:30.871 That's the end of your question. 00:34:31.052 --> 00:34:32.983 There you go, I love it, okay, all right. 00:34:32.983 --> 00:34:35.588 Um, and then a final question how can our listeners connect with you and learn more? 00:34:35.588 --> 00:34:35.829 Just that. 00:34:35.829 --> 00:34:36.530 That's the end of your question. 00:34:36.530 --> 00:34:37.914 There you go, I love it, okay, all right. 00:34:37.974 --> 00:34:40.619 And then a final question how can our listeners connect with you and learn more and get their hands on the book. 00:34:40.619 --> 00:34:42.483 Okay, you're going to edit this because I didn't realize. 00:34:42.483 --> 00:34:46.592 I thought there was going to be more to that question, because I was like, who should people listen to? 00:34:46.592 --> 00:34:51.266 You know, my response is obvious People should listen to themselves. 00:34:51.266 --> 00:34:56.905 But how do you do that? 00:34:56.905 --> 00:34:57.173 Right, that's not so easy. 00:34:57.114 --> 00:35:03.293 Well, first you got to just be self-aware, and I think that the biggest step anybody can take you know, I'm teaching a new course on personal power here at the business school at Tulane and, uh, you know I'm going to teach them all. 00:35:03.293 --> 00:35:13.675 We just like, went to the first week and we're going to learn everything about personal power there is, but the first step is awareness and so, like, the first lectures were actually really hard because I'm like, where are you guys not showing up? 00:35:13.675 --> 00:35:14.684 Like, where are you not? 00:35:14.684 --> 00:35:15.547 Where are you blaming? 00:35:15.547 --> 00:35:16.686 Where are you? 00:35:16.686 --> 00:35:21.327 You know, looking outward rather than inward for the answers, like it's like the really uncomfortable stuff. 00:35:21.327 --> 00:35:25.166 So the first step to personal power is self-awareness. 00:35:27.170 --> 00:35:27.510 I love it. 00:35:27.510 --> 00:35:29.981 I love it All right. 00:35:29.981 --> 00:35:30.784 Last question now. 00:35:30.784 --> 00:35:31.724 How can our listeners connect with you? 00:35:31.724 --> 00:35:31.699 I love it All right. 00:35:31.699 --> 00:35:31.811 Last question now. 00:35:34.862 --> 00:35:35.702 How can our listeners connect with you? 00:35:35.702 --> 00:35:36.463 My website, speakvaluecom. 00:35:36.463 --> 00:35:42.590 Of course you can see kind of what I speak on there some of my books but if you're interested in the science of personal power, grab the book on Amazon. 00:35:42.590 --> 00:35:48.317 And if this is something you want to bring into your organization, I'm happy to deliver workshops. 00:35:48.317 --> 00:35:52.150 Or even I can just send you emails and give you some information on tips you can use within your organization. 00:35:52.150 --> 00:35:54.659 Absolutely, or even I can just send you emails and give you some information on tips you can use within your organization. 00:35:54.679 --> 00:35:55.559 Absolutely so. 00:35:55.559 --> 00:36:01.152 The book again the Science of Personal Power how to Build Confidence, create Success and Obtain Freedom. 00:36:01.152 --> 00:36:03.809 It is available now or books are sold. 00:36:03.809 --> 00:36:09.706 Chris, thank you so much for joining us and for putting this out there Really, really great stuff. 00:36:09.706 --> 00:36:15.047 We just scratched the surface, so go get the book and appreciate your time today, chris Pleasure. 00:36:15.047 --> 00:36:15.588 Thank you, kyle. 00:36:15.588 --> 00:36:18.833 Thank you All right. 00:36:18.833 --> 00:36:21.643 That does it for the Rebel HR podcast. 00:36:21.643 --> 00:36:23.628 Big thank you to our guests. 00:36:23.628 --> 00:36:32.775 Follow us on Facebook at Rebel HR podcast, twitter at Rebel HR guy or see our website at rebel human resourcescom. 00:36:32.775 --> 00:36:42.648 The views and opinions expressed by rebel hr podcast are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we represent. 00:36:42.648 --> 00:36:46.141 No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast. 00:36:46.141 --> 00:36:48.445 Baby.