1 00:00:03,044 --> 00:00:06,049 Speaker 1: This is the Rebel HR podcast, the podcast about all 2 00:00:06,168 --> 00:00:08,151 things innovation in the people's space. 3 00:00:08,151 --> 00:00:09,554 I'm Kyle Rode. 4 00:00:09,554 --> 00:00:10,595 Let's start the show. 5 00:00:10,595 --> 00:00:16,702 Welcome back, Rebel HR community. 6 00:00:16,702 --> 00:00:22,329 We have an honored guest with us today, so so excited. 7 00:00:22,329 --> 00:00:25,454 With us we have Stephen M R Covey. 8 00:00:25,454 --> 00:00:29,623 He is the author of Trust and Inspire and the Speed of Trust. 9 00:00:29,623 --> 00:00:35,240 He has been an influencer in our space for years and I am so 10 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:36,744 thrilled and honored to have him with us. 11 00:00:36,744 --> 00:00:38,371 Thank you, Stephen, for joining us today. 12 00:00:39,039 --> 00:00:40,180 Speaker 2: You are welcome, Kyle . 13 00:00:40,180 --> 00:00:42,984 I'm equally thrilled and honored to be with you for this 14 00:00:43,003 --> 00:00:43,143 podcast. 15 00:00:43,164 --> 00:00:44,365 Speaker 1: I'm equally thrilled and honored to be with you for 16 00:00:44,405 --> 00:00:44,786 this podcast. 17 00:00:44,786 --> 00:00:45,866 Well, thank you so much. 18 00:00:45,866 --> 00:00:50,371 And before we hit record, I was totally fanboying over here. 19 00:00:50,371 --> 00:00:54,515 I mean, it's like full circle that we've got the Stephen M R 20 00:00:54,534 --> 00:01:04,033 Covey on the podcast, considering the fact that one of 21 00:01:04,033 --> 00:01:05,450 the motivating pieces of content and literature was the 22 00:01:05,337 --> 00:01:06,454 speed of trust that motivated me to start the podcast here so 23 00:01:06,474 --> 00:01:06,754 many years ago. 24 00:01:06,754 --> 00:01:09,197 So, Stephen, thank you so much for spending some time with us 25 00:01:09,216 --> 00:01:09,457 today. 26 00:01:09,659 --> 00:01:10,402 Speaker 2: You're welcome. 27 00:01:10,402 --> 00:01:12,668 I was thrilled when you shared that story with me. 28 00:01:12,668 --> 00:01:17,427 This is one of the motivators to get going on this podcast and 29 00:01:17,427 --> 00:01:19,673 I'm really humbled by that and excited. 30 00:01:20,260 --> 00:01:23,543 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I really, really appreciate your time and 31 00:01:23,543 --> 00:01:27,027 appreciate all of the content and thought-provoking work that 32 00:01:27,066 --> 00:01:32,072 you've done here over the years and that your organization, 33 00:01:32,132 --> 00:01:36,355 franklin Covey, has done over the years with training courses 34 00:01:36,417 --> 00:01:36,757 and books. 35 00:01:36,757 --> 00:01:40,992 There's so much great content in the library there. 36 00:01:40,992 --> 00:01:42,620 It's just, it's been amazing. 37 00:01:42,620 --> 00:01:45,840 So, with that being said, today we're going to be talking all 38 00:01:45,902 --> 00:01:51,331 about trusting and inspiring, and the book that is available 39 00:01:51,391 --> 00:01:55,649 now is Trust and Inspire how Truly Great Leaders Unleash 40 00:01:55,728 --> 00:01:57,192 Greatness in Others. 41 00:01:57,192 --> 00:02:01,182 My first question to you is what motivated you to write a 42 00:02:01,221 --> 00:02:03,846 book labeled Trust and Inspire? 43 00:02:04,989 --> 00:02:07,132 Speaker 2: Yeah, two key things. 44 00:02:07,132 --> 00:02:13,508 First, just seeing how everything, all these new forces 45 00:02:13,508 --> 00:02:16,552 of change, have just hit all at once. 46 00:02:16,552 --> 00:02:20,288 The nature of work is far more collaborative and interdependent 47 00:02:20,288 --> 00:02:21,151 than ever before. 48 00:02:21,151 --> 00:02:25,265 Technology is changing everything, with disruption and 49 00:02:25,286 --> 00:02:27,263 the pace of change and the amount of change. 50 00:02:27,263 --> 00:02:31,515 But also the nature of the workplace is changing, with 51 00:02:31,978 --> 00:02:35,085 suddenly remote work, hybrid work, intentionally flexible 52 00:02:35,105 --> 00:02:36,688 work, all these new options. 53 00:02:36,688 --> 00:02:40,487 And then the nature of the workforce has changed, where we 54 00:02:40,527 --> 00:02:43,979 have these younger generations, you know, gen Z, the upcoming 55 00:02:44,039 --> 00:02:48,209 alpha generation with completely different expectations of how 56 00:02:48,248 --> 00:02:49,812 they want to be engaged and led. 57 00:02:49,812 --> 00:02:54,590 And then even the nature of choice has changed, where we've 58 00:02:54,609 --> 00:02:58,384 gone from maybe what we might call multiple choice to infinite 59 00:02:58,384 --> 00:03:01,032 choice, where people have options in a way that they 60 00:03:01,072 --> 00:03:04,705 didn't have before, where I can live here, work there. 61 00:03:05,165 --> 00:03:06,647 All these forces of change. 62 00:03:06,647 --> 00:03:11,055 It's really a new world of work , and a new world of work 63 00:03:12,122 --> 00:03:16,850 requires a new way to lead, to continue to lead in the old way, 64 00:03:16,850 --> 00:03:18,074 the old model of leadership. 65 00:03:18,074 --> 00:03:21,086 In a new world it's not going to be relevant. 66 00:03:21,086 --> 00:03:24,793 I like how you know the paraphrase, marshall Goldsmith 67 00:03:24,812 --> 00:03:26,216 not going to be relevant. 68 00:03:26,216 --> 00:03:28,539 I like how you know the paraphrase, marshall Goldsmith 69 00:03:31,699 --> 00:03:32,966 what got us here won't get us there, and the style of 70 00:03:32,985 --> 00:03:34,211 leadership that maybe got us to where we are today is not the 71 00:03:34,251 --> 00:03:36,019 style of leadership that's going to be needed to take us to 72 00:03:36,039 --> 00:03:39,247 where we need to go tomorrow and in this new world of work. 73 00:03:39,268 --> 00:03:43,168 And so we need a new way to lead in a new world of work, and the 74 00:03:43,168 --> 00:03:47,621 new way, you know, I call trust and inspire, in contrast to the 75 00:03:47,621 --> 00:03:50,390 old way, which, for simplicity's sake, I called 76 00:03:50,450 --> 00:03:53,763 command and control that we've gotten better at through the 77 00:03:53,783 --> 00:03:56,615 years and more, more sophisticated, more advanced, 78 00:03:57,037 --> 00:04:00,105 more enlightened version of command and control, but still 79 00:04:00,145 --> 00:04:03,762 command and control and versus that, trust and inspire, so that 80 00:04:03,762 --> 00:04:05,788 all these forces have changed being. 81 00:04:05,788 --> 00:04:09,048 You know, driving around us is one of the key reasons that 82 00:04:09,068 --> 00:04:10,963 we've got to have a new way to lead in a new world at work. 83 00:04:10,963 --> 00:04:12,649 But here's the second one. 84 00:04:12,649 --> 00:04:17,141 It's just looking at how, almost if you, if you go around 85 00:04:17,201 --> 00:04:23,283 and ask HR professionals anywhere this question, how many 86 00:04:23,283 --> 00:04:28,961 of you believe that the vast majority of the workforce inside 87 00:04:28,961 --> 00:04:35,274 of your organization has far more creativity, ingenuity, 88 00:04:35,795 --> 00:04:41,747 capacity, knowledge, insight, wisdom than their current job 89 00:04:42,809 --> 00:04:46,514 requires or even allows them to contribute? 90 00:04:46,514 --> 00:04:51,951 Almost everyone would raise their hand and say mine does 91 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:56,446 People have a lot more to give right, then we're able to give. 92 00:04:57,341 --> 00:05:00,089 And then the second question, the follow-on, is and how many 93 00:05:01,033 --> 00:05:06,932 are under intense and growing pressure to achieve more with 94 00:05:06,992 --> 00:05:07,252 less? 95 00:05:07,252 --> 00:05:10,622 And almost all of us would raise our hands to that. 96 00:05:10,622 --> 00:05:14,511 And so I kind of you know what's wrong with this picture. 97 00:05:14,511 --> 00:05:18,706 We have to do more with less, and yet people have far more to 98 00:05:18,766 --> 00:05:20,009 give than they're able to give. 99 00:05:20,009 --> 00:05:24,005 That to me, is a failure of leadership that we're not 100 00:05:24,607 --> 00:05:27,221 leading in a way that is unleashing the potential, the 101 00:05:27,262 --> 00:05:31,009 greatness, the talent that's inside of people, and and we've 102 00:05:31,069 --> 00:05:33,963 got to find a better way to lead than the way we've been leading 103 00:05:33,963 --> 00:05:33,963 . 104 00:05:33,963 --> 00:05:36,870 And again, I'm calling that trust and inspire. 105 00:05:36,870 --> 00:05:39,805 So that's more the emotional connection. 106 00:05:39,805 --> 00:05:41,148 The first one's more the intellectual. 107 00:05:41,148 --> 00:05:44,420 You know, a new way of a new world of work requires a new way 108 00:05:44,420 --> 00:05:44,821 to lead. 109 00:05:44,821 --> 00:05:49,266 But the second is kind of just saying people have so much more 110 00:05:49,346 --> 00:05:51,588 inside of them that we're not unleashing. 111 00:05:51,588 --> 00:05:55,052 You know, in service of the organization, our mission and 112 00:05:55,091 --> 00:05:57,435 our, our clients and our culture . 113 00:05:57,435 --> 00:05:58,855 We've got to tap into that. 114 00:06:01,425 --> 00:06:03,721 Speaker 1: We've got to lead in a better way, absolutely, and 115 00:06:04,223 --> 00:06:06,550 you know, I couldn't have said it better myself. 116 00:06:06,550 --> 00:06:09,567 There's a reason we labeled this thing rebel human resources 117 00:06:09,567 --> 00:06:12,783 , and that's because we believe that there is change, some 118 00:06:12,824 --> 00:06:16,189 positive disruption for the better, that that needs to occur 119 00:06:16,189 --> 00:06:16,189 . 120 00:06:16,189 --> 00:06:17,973 Um, it, it's. 121 00:06:17,973 --> 00:06:21,548 And and I I think it's really fascinating the way you open the 122 00:06:21,548 --> 00:06:21,829 book. 123 00:06:21,829 --> 00:06:25,362 You talk about the, the old paradigm of leadership, this 124 00:06:25,442 --> 00:06:28,204 command and control, and I literally remember when I 125 00:06:28,283 --> 00:06:32,586 started early in my career, we were literally using those terms 126 00:06:32,586 --> 00:06:35,689 as it relates to what we defined as leadership was you 127 00:06:35,728 --> 00:06:38,730 need to make sure you are commanding and controlling, and 128 00:06:39,132 --> 00:06:40,872 it was a manufacturing environment. 129 00:06:40,872 --> 00:06:44,134 We had all the buzzwords, all the lean manufacturing buzzwords 130 00:06:44,134 --> 00:06:46,076 , but we literally use those words. 131 00:06:46,117 --> 00:06:48,862 So when I flipped through the book, I'm like, oh yeah, this is 132 00:06:48,862 --> 00:06:52,971 , this is hitting home for me, but but it's a little bit. 133 00:06:53,072 --> 00:06:55,487 It's a little bit thought provoking and and I love what 134 00:06:55,526 --> 00:06:59,180 you just said about the, the aspect of, of the emotional 135 00:06:59,339 --> 00:07:02,305 aspect here, where, where we know that people have more 136 00:07:02,345 --> 00:07:06,932 creativity, they have more to give, we know that people have 137 00:07:06,951 --> 00:07:10,798 more creativity, they have more to give, but we aren't allowing 138 00:07:10,819 --> 00:07:16,824 that right, or the environment's not allowing that, or there's 139 00:07:16,843 --> 00:07:18,266 something missing that's allowing people to truly connect 140 00:07:18,266 --> 00:07:20,512 with that higher purpose that they have. 141 00:07:20,533 --> 00:07:23,002 And one of the things that I love about your writing and it's 142 00:07:23,002 --> 00:07:26,690 the same in the Speed of Trust is you do a really nice job of 143 00:07:26,730 --> 00:07:27,853 putting this into models. 144 00:07:27,853 --> 00:07:31,704 I'm a picture guy, so I love the. 145 00:07:31,704 --> 00:07:33,666 There's some diagrams, there's some pictures, there's some 146 00:07:33,747 --> 00:07:38,954 tools within the book that helps us kind of break this down into 147 00:07:38,954 --> 00:07:40,656 something that's actually actionable. 148 00:07:40,656 --> 00:07:44,615 One of those tools is what you've described as the three 149 00:07:44,716 --> 00:07:48,005 stewardships of a trust and inspire leader, and I really 150 00:07:48,045 --> 00:07:52,105 like that framework as we start to think about how we define a 151 00:07:52,125 --> 00:07:53,166 trust and inspire leader. 152 00:07:53,166 --> 00:07:56,581 So can you walk us through those three stewardships and how 153 00:07:56,581 --> 00:07:58,646 we should be thinking about that in human resources? 154 00:07:59,208 --> 00:07:59,990 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. 155 00:07:59,990 --> 00:08:03,661 And first of all, let me begin by talking about the word 156 00:08:03,721 --> 00:08:04,341 stewardship. 157 00:08:04,341 --> 00:08:09,485 That's really part of the paradigm shift that we need for 158 00:08:09,545 --> 00:08:10,786 the kind of leadership needed today. 159 00:08:10,786 --> 00:08:15,670 That leadership is stewardship. 160 00:08:15,670 --> 00:08:21,495 It's about responsibility, not rights, influence, not position. 161 00:08:21,495 --> 00:08:26,880 Leadership is a choice, not a position, and these are inherent 162 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:28,264 responsibilities, implicit in being a leader. 163 00:08:28,264 --> 00:08:32,711 So just the very idea of a stewardship versus three 164 00:08:32,753 --> 00:08:33,494 leadership rights. 165 00:08:33,659 --> 00:08:36,486 Now, these are three leadership stewardships, responsibilities 166 00:08:36,506 --> 00:08:39,400 that we have A job with, a trust . 167 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,908 There's three of them and they're simple, they're just not 168 00:08:42,908 --> 00:08:44,890 easy, and I think people them. 169 00:08:44,890 --> 00:08:47,375 And they're simple, they're just not easy, and I think 170 00:08:47,395 --> 00:08:54,299 people, when they hear them, they say yes, of course, but 171 00:08:54,340 --> 00:08:55,561 sometimes our style can get in the way of our intent. 172 00:08:55,561 --> 00:08:56,981 And so here's what they are First, modeling. 173 00:08:56,981 --> 00:09:02,767 Second, trusting and third, inspiring. 174 00:09:02,767 --> 00:09:06,249 So we have a stewardship to model, to model the behavior 175 00:09:06,269 --> 00:09:08,650 that we would like to see to go. 176 00:09:08,650 --> 00:09:09,071 First. 177 00:09:09,071 --> 00:09:10,231 We have a stewardship. 178 00:09:10,231 --> 00:09:13,654 Second, to trust and to extend that trust, to give the trust, 179 00:09:14,075 --> 00:09:16,937 to be trusting of people so we unleash their potential and 180 00:09:16,956 --> 00:09:17,496 their greatness. 181 00:09:17,496 --> 00:09:21,965 And then, third, we have a stewardship, a responsibility, 182 00:09:21,985 --> 00:09:26,947 to inspire those around us, those who are leading to model, 183 00:09:27,008 --> 00:09:28,061 to trust, to inspire. 184 00:09:28,061 --> 00:09:29,644 Modeling is who we are. 185 00:09:29,644 --> 00:09:33,953 Trusting is how we lead, and inspiring is connecting to why 186 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:39,691 it matters, and so those stewardships kind of comprise 187 00:09:39,711 --> 00:09:43,083 this new way of leading, this trust and inspire approach to 188 00:09:43,104 --> 00:09:43,485 leadership. 189 00:09:43,485 --> 00:09:46,392 I just didn't call it model, trust and inspire. 190 00:09:46,392 --> 00:09:50,321 I called it trust and inspire for simplicity and also to be to 191 00:09:50,321 --> 00:09:52,626 be in contrast to command and control. 192 00:09:52,626 --> 00:09:55,361 You know, command and control, trust and inspire. 193 00:09:55,361 --> 00:09:59,100 But there's really three elements of it we model, we 194 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:01,168 trust and we inspire. 195 00:10:01,168 --> 00:10:06,071 And that kind of leadership is what's going to bring out the 196 00:10:06,091 --> 00:10:09,128 potential, the greatness, the talent that's inside of people 197 00:10:09,931 --> 00:10:13,501 and really create the kind of culture, a high-trust culture, 198 00:10:13,822 --> 00:10:15,767 where people do feel inspired. 199 00:10:15,767 --> 00:10:22,923 And there's a whole other level of both productivity that 200 00:10:22,984 --> 00:10:26,207 people have inside of them when they feel inspired, as well as 201 00:10:26,288 --> 00:10:30,832 creativity, an innovation that can come out of them, but also 202 00:10:31,894 --> 00:10:41,383 greater well-being, greater energy, greater joy. 203 00:10:41,383 --> 00:10:41,865 It's just so much. 204 00:10:41,865 --> 00:10:43,268 There's so much more that we can tap into inside of people 205 00:10:43,288 --> 00:10:45,975 and that they want to have for their wellbeing, their energy, 206 00:10:46,015 --> 00:10:48,128 their joy that they would like to have as part of the culture 207 00:10:48,370 --> 00:10:52,303 that will keep them with us, because they feel like we are 208 00:10:52,403 --> 00:10:55,631 seeking their best interests and we are unleashing with their 209 00:10:55,672 --> 00:10:57,042 capacity, and they love that. 210 00:10:57,042 --> 00:10:59,467 They want to be trusted, they want to be inspired. 211 00:10:59,467 --> 00:11:02,782 So we model, we trust, we inspire. 212 00:11:03,222 --> 00:11:06,288 If I could give just a brief illustration of a great leader 213 00:11:06,308 --> 00:11:11,606 who did this, I think of Cheryl Batchelder at Popeyes. 214 00:11:11,606 --> 00:11:16,703 When she became the CEO of Popeyes, she walks in they'd had 215 00:11:16,703 --> 00:11:20,345 four CEOs in the prior seven years Popeyes, the fast food 216 00:11:20,365 --> 00:11:24,927 franchise and she comes in a completely different kind of 217 00:11:24,988 --> 00:11:27,884 leader and the kind of leadership they'd had prior 218 00:11:28,525 --> 00:11:32,678 where they'd really there was almost a breakdown between the 219 00:11:32,698 --> 00:11:36,125 relationship of the franchisees with the home office. 220 00:11:36,125 --> 00:11:37,749 There was low trust. 221 00:11:37,749 --> 00:11:40,961 They not only didn't trust each other, they didn't really like 222 00:11:41,001 --> 00:11:41,503 each other. 223 00:11:41,503 --> 00:11:49,260 And she comes in and just models the kind of behavior that 224 00:11:49,260 --> 00:11:51,667 she would like to see, that they would like to see, with 225 00:11:51,726 --> 00:11:56,506 humility, balanced with courage, but also with empathy, with 226 00:11:56,648 --> 00:11:58,052 listening and understanding. 227 00:11:58,052 --> 00:12:02,489 She'd go into any conversation to try to understand first the 228 00:12:02,509 --> 00:12:05,399 perspective of the franchisees and everyone that she came in 229 00:12:05,418 --> 00:12:08,811 contact with, but then also modeling around delivering 230 00:12:08,870 --> 00:12:12,160 results, performing, delivering what they were looking for. 231 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:16,809 And so she modeled and people liked that. 232 00:12:16,809 --> 00:12:20,001 They felt heard, they felt understood, they felt valued. 233 00:12:20,001 --> 00:12:24,650 But then she trusted and she actually had people on her team 234 00:12:24,671 --> 00:12:26,433 that said you can't trust them. 235 00:12:26,433 --> 00:12:29,330 She says if we can't trust them , who can we trust? 236 00:12:29,330 --> 00:12:31,486 You know, they're our partners. 237 00:12:31,486 --> 00:12:34,379 And so she led out with that extension of trust. 238 00:12:34,379 --> 00:12:38,970 She was trusting of her franchisees, of her partners, of 239 00:12:38,970 --> 00:12:40,312 all the people that she worked with. 240 00:12:40,312 --> 00:12:44,529 She went first in trusting others and then she inspired. 241 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:46,085 How did she inspire? 242 00:12:46,085 --> 00:12:51,903 By connecting with people through a sense of caring, 243 00:12:52,004 --> 00:12:56,761 genuine caring, deep caring, and a sense of belonging that we 244 00:12:56,802 --> 00:12:58,105 belong to something we're part of. 245 00:12:58,105 --> 00:13:01,104 This Part of our identity is tied to this a real connection 246 00:13:01,807 --> 00:13:04,517 with people through a sense of caring and belonging, but also 247 00:13:04,596 --> 00:13:08,306 connected people to purpose, to meaning and to contribution. 248 00:13:08,306 --> 00:13:12,943 Long story made short, she began to really create a 249 00:13:12,984 --> 00:13:16,677 different experience, internally , with their own people. 250 00:13:17,219 --> 00:13:19,528 Externally, in the marketplace with customers and partners. 251 00:13:19,528 --> 00:13:22,813 They began to win in the workplace with their own people, 252 00:13:22,813 --> 00:13:25,586 which helped them win in the marketplace with customers and 253 00:13:25,625 --> 00:13:26,008 partners. 254 00:13:26,008 --> 00:13:29,528 And they began to unleash the greatness of their organization 255 00:13:29,568 --> 00:13:32,265 by first unleashing the greatness of her people. 256 00:13:32,265 --> 00:13:35,187 She modeled, she trusted, she inspired. 257 00:13:35,187 --> 00:13:38,097 Unleashing the greatness of her people, she modeled, she 258 00:13:38,118 --> 00:13:38,659 trusted, she inspired. 259 00:13:38,659 --> 00:13:43,964 And, among other things, they went from a 14% market share to 260 00:13:43,984 --> 00:13:44,644 27%. 261 00:13:44,644 --> 00:13:48,312 They went from a stock price of $11 a share to $79. 262 00:13:48,312 --> 00:13:51,740 Again, these economic, these financial wins that I believe 263 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,788 came about because they first unleashed the greatness of her 264 00:13:54,870 --> 00:13:57,586 people, of the culture that was inside of everyone. 265 00:13:57,586 --> 00:13:59,912 She modeled, she trusted, she inspired. 266 00:14:01,842 --> 00:14:04,910 In a very similar way, satya Nadella did the same thing at 267 00:14:04,971 --> 00:14:08,445 Microsoft unleashing the greatness of that organization 268 00:14:08,725 --> 00:14:12,361 by first unleashing the greatness of the people by 269 00:14:12,442 --> 00:14:16,130 modeling, by trusting, by inspiring, by implementing these 270 00:14:16,130 --> 00:14:17,982 three stewardships, by carrying them out. 271 00:14:17,982 --> 00:14:24,254 And it's really remarkable that this unleashes the potential, 272 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:27,232 the talent, the greatness that's inside of people to have a 273 00:14:27,253 --> 00:14:30,984 leader that models, that trusts, that inspires, versus a leader 274 00:14:31,404 --> 00:14:34,711 that kind of waits on everybody else and that tries to command 275 00:14:34,751 --> 00:14:38,990 and control their way, you know, through position and the like, 276 00:14:39,442 --> 00:14:43,370 and waiting on everybody else and then just directing and 277 00:14:43,672 --> 00:14:47,767 requiring or enforcing and trying to just motivate only 278 00:14:47,787 --> 00:14:48,570 instead of inspire. 279 00:14:48,570 --> 00:14:53,345 You know, relying on reward systems only nothing wrong with 280 00:14:53,424 --> 00:14:55,833 reward systems, that's motivation. 281 00:14:55,833 --> 00:14:58,605 But we want to move to inspiration, where it's internal 282 00:14:58,605 --> 00:15:01,253 , intrinsic inside of people, to light that fire within. 283 00:15:01,253 --> 00:15:04,687 So, and I describe it, those are the three stewardships you 284 00:15:04,746 --> 00:15:07,173 model, you trust, you inspire. 285 00:15:10,321 --> 00:15:13,030 Speaker 1: Well, just for our listeners, just so you know, I 286 00:15:13,091 --> 00:15:15,580 literally had a question about motivation versus inspiration 287 00:15:15,780 --> 00:15:21,145 and Stephen is like reading my mind, but I think, first of all, 288 00:15:21,145 --> 00:15:26,014 two great examples of leaders that have trusted and inspired. 289 00:15:26,014 --> 00:15:29,926 I tend to agree with you where these financial wins and the 290 00:15:29,966 --> 00:15:32,230 stock price wins and all these things, these headlines of these 291 00:15:32,230 --> 00:15:35,375 wonderful companies, that you know that that's a tail effect, 292 00:15:35,434 --> 00:15:38,019 right Like that's a, that's a ripple effect from from, uh, 293 00:15:38,099 --> 00:15:39,301 effective people practices. 294 00:15:39,301 --> 00:15:43,009 Uh, at least that's been my experience in my career, so I 295 00:15:43,210 --> 00:15:44,051 tend to agree with that. 296 00:15:44,051 --> 00:15:47,770 Um, I, I do want to, I want, I want to circle back to your 297 00:15:47,791 --> 00:15:51,421 comments on motivation versus inspiration and I in the context 298 00:15:51,421 --> 00:15:52,361 of human resources. 299 00:15:52,721 --> 00:15:58,826 So often we get caught into this trap of thinking about 300 00:15:59,427 --> 00:16:02,828 inspiring others to do things in the context of things like 301 00:16:02,928 --> 00:16:09,193 rewards systems or incentive systems and motivation systems. 302 00:16:09,193 --> 00:16:14,697 Uh, so often I think we miss the boat on the bigger picture, 303 00:16:14,758 --> 00:16:19,647 which is that that, yes, rewards and compensation and benefits 304 00:16:19,667 --> 00:16:23,721 and all these things are are important, but they're not the 305 00:16:23,861 --> 00:16:28,041 reason that people uh give extra discretionary efforts, not 306 00:16:28,162 --> 00:16:30,995 necessarily the reason that people will go above and beyond 307 00:16:31,135 --> 00:16:33,279 or or make wonderful things or have great innovation. 308 00:16:33,279 --> 00:16:37,431 So can you walk us through that , that difference, the nuance 309 00:16:37,510 --> 00:16:40,057 between motivating somebody to do something and actually 310 00:16:40,138 --> 00:16:41,604 inspiring somebody to do something? 311 00:16:42,206 --> 00:16:43,832 Speaker 2: Yeah, fabulous, kyle. 312 00:16:43,832 --> 00:16:45,860 I'm glad that we're going deeper in this, because I think 313 00:16:46,442 --> 00:16:50,850 this distinction is really important and I think it's part 314 00:16:50,889 --> 00:16:55,102 of the whole rebel HR mindset of seeking the breakthrough. 315 00:16:55,102 --> 00:16:59,669 And the way to think about it is less good and bad and either 316 00:16:59,830 --> 00:17:03,154 or, but more and and then going beyond. 317 00:17:03,154 --> 00:17:08,761 So look at it this way Motivation is external, it's 318 00:17:08,842 --> 00:17:11,962 extrinsic, it's outside of us, and so we're trying to move 319 00:17:12,022 --> 00:17:13,147 people to do something. 320 00:17:13,147 --> 00:17:19,125 So it tends to be kind of reward systems and heavy carrot 321 00:17:19,184 --> 00:17:19,586 and stick. 322 00:17:19,586 --> 00:17:22,392 Motivation is the traditional command and control. 323 00:17:22,392 --> 00:17:23,640 So you want to. 324 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:25,046 You know, does that work? 325 00:17:25,046 --> 00:17:26,191 Do reward systems work? 326 00:17:26,191 --> 00:17:29,221 Sure, they motivate people, they move people to want to get 327 00:17:29,340 --> 00:17:33,065 more rewards, but the only problem is that we have to keep 328 00:17:34,226 --> 00:17:35,126 well, two problems. 329 00:17:35,126 --> 00:17:38,150 First, we have to keep providing more external stimuli, 330 00:17:38,150 --> 00:17:43,295 more carrots, more sticks, to keep moving people, because we 331 00:17:43,315 --> 00:17:44,275 have to move them. 332 00:17:44,296 --> 00:17:57,824 Through this approach and what's inside of people to begin with, 333 00:17:57,824 --> 00:17:59,106 that goes beyond being moved to do it, but rather that people 334 00:17:59,166 --> 00:17:59,528 choose to do it. 335 00:17:59,528 --> 00:18:02,857 They feel compelled because it's in them. 336 00:18:02,857 --> 00:18:05,165 You're tapping into something greater, which is where 337 00:18:05,287 --> 00:18:06,230 inspiration will take you. 338 00:18:06,230 --> 00:18:11,205 So inspire, by contrast to being external, inspire and 339 00:18:11,266 --> 00:18:16,116 inspiration is internal, it's intrinsic, it's already inside 340 00:18:16,176 --> 00:18:16,577 of people. 341 00:18:16,577 --> 00:18:20,826 What we're trying to do is light the fire that's within. 342 00:18:20,826 --> 00:18:26,234 That fire, once lit, can burn on for months, if not years, 343 00:18:26,861 --> 00:18:30,977 without the need for constant new external stimuli, and it can 344 00:18:30,977 --> 00:18:34,304 take you to completely different places that motivation 345 00:18:34,304 --> 00:18:39,130 will never fully reach, where people feel inspired to bring 346 00:18:39,191 --> 00:18:42,035 forth their best effort, their best work, their best thinking 347 00:18:42,095 --> 00:18:42,855 and creativity. 348 00:18:42,855 --> 00:18:48,502 They choose to give it, they volunteer it, and the fire is 349 00:18:48,682 --> 00:18:48,962 lit. 350 00:18:48,962 --> 00:18:57,053 And you know the Latin phrase for inspire is inspirare, which 351 00:18:57,534 --> 00:18:59,135 means to breathe life into. 352 00:18:59,135 --> 00:19:04,134 So you say trust, and inspire breathes life into relationships 353 00:19:04,134 --> 00:19:07,505 , into teams, into cultures, whereas command and control 354 00:19:07,684 --> 00:19:10,412 often tends to suck the life out of. 355 00:19:10,412 --> 00:19:15,583 So I'm not against reward systems, we need that, we need 356 00:19:15,623 --> 00:19:16,184 motivation. 357 00:19:16,184 --> 00:19:17,780 I'm just saying it's incomplete . 358 00:19:17,780 --> 00:19:22,911 We can have that and then go beyond it into inspiration, 359 00:19:23,551 --> 00:19:26,182 where people are inspired by purpose and by meaning, by 360 00:19:26,261 --> 00:19:31,670 contribution and by a sense of identity and belonging and a 361 00:19:31,710 --> 00:19:35,034 real sense of caring which moves them to a whole new place 362 00:19:35,755 --> 00:19:36,296 altogether. 363 00:19:36,296 --> 00:19:41,088 And so it's not either, or it's , and it's a little bit. 364 00:19:41,569 --> 00:19:44,844 Maslow's hierarchy of needs and motivation can take you so far 365 00:19:44,884 --> 00:19:45,526 up the hierarchy. 366 00:19:45,526 --> 00:19:49,563 But really, what will move people not only into 367 00:19:50,203 --> 00:19:55,571 self-actualization, but even where Maslow later amended his 368 00:19:55,612 --> 00:20:01,547 hierarchy of needs and added self-transcendence, which is 369 00:20:01,606 --> 00:20:03,730 contribution purpose. 370 00:20:03,730 --> 00:20:08,240 That's where inspiration will take you, and I'll just cite one 371 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:08,622 study. 372 00:20:08,622 --> 00:20:11,845 This is a study from Bain and company, the consultants, that 373 00:20:11,884 --> 00:20:20,132 shows that employees who are inspired are 125% more 374 00:20:20,192 --> 00:20:27,222 productive than merely satisfied employees and we might expect 375 00:20:27,242 --> 00:20:29,691 that because satisfaction is not the highest bar. 376 00:20:29,691 --> 00:20:34,660 So 125% more productive than merely satisfied employees, but 377 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:35,320 listen to this. 378 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:41,965 And they're even 56% more productive than fully engaged 379 00:20:42,405 --> 00:20:45,209 employees, which is where we've been focused on. 380 00:20:45,868 --> 00:20:48,211 And motivation can move you towards engagement, and I'm 381 00:20:48,230 --> 00:20:56,119 saying that the highest manifestation of engagement, the 382 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:58,665 highest form of engagement, is to be inspired. 383 00:20:58,665 --> 00:21:02,644 So even something beyond that, where there's another level of 384 00:21:02,703 --> 00:21:07,361 productivity, another level of creativity and innovation and 385 00:21:07,441 --> 00:21:11,029 I'm going to come back to the value to the employee another 386 00:21:11,069 --> 00:21:20,502 level of wellbeing, another level of well-being of thriving. 387 00:21:20,502 --> 00:21:21,964 Microsoft is measuring thriving , you know, not just engagement, 388 00:21:21,964 --> 00:21:24,650 but the employee thriving to be inspired, and others are 389 00:21:24,711 --> 00:21:29,463 measuring you being inspired, and so that's the idea is, is, 390 00:21:29,704 --> 00:21:32,268 is not either or it's and, but it's, it's. 391 00:21:32,268 --> 00:21:37,095 It's a sense of, of, of completing, of what's possible 392 00:21:37,796 --> 00:21:38,538 inside of people. 393 00:21:38,538 --> 00:21:42,425 That includes motivation, but goes so much beyond, and that's 394 00:21:42,465 --> 00:21:45,625 what people today people, I like to say people don't want to be 395 00:21:45,684 --> 00:21:46,126 managed. 396 00:21:47,220 --> 00:21:50,611 People do want to be led and they want to be trusted. 397 00:21:50,611 --> 00:21:51,724 They want to be inspired. 398 00:21:51,724 --> 00:21:54,367 They want to have that life breathed into and they want to 399 00:21:54,407 --> 00:21:55,682 have their, their fire lit. 400 00:21:55,682 --> 00:22:00,392 That you candle can light another candle, but an unlit 401 00:22:00,432 --> 00:22:02,944 candle can't light another candle. 402 00:22:02,944 --> 00:22:06,551 So to inspire others we first need to become inspired 403 00:22:06,612 --> 00:22:06,913 ourselves. 404 00:22:06,913 --> 00:22:09,645 That's all part of the stewardship. 405 00:22:09,645 --> 00:22:10,807 We have to inspire others. 406 00:22:10,807 --> 00:22:19,007 Let's model the response first inspire others. 407 00:22:19,588 --> 00:22:20,532 Speaker 1: Let's model this first. 408 00:22:20,532 --> 00:22:21,457 I love that. 409 00:22:21,457 --> 00:22:22,098 I love that HR be the candle. 410 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:28,962 Don't be the snuffer, go first. 411 00:22:28,962 --> 00:22:29,484 Absolutely, I love it. 412 00:22:29,484 --> 00:22:30,711 Side note it's so funny you mentioned Maslow's hierarchy of 413 00:22:30,730 --> 00:22:32,378 needs because literally a couple of weeks ago we just debunked 414 00:22:32,398 --> 00:22:34,784 the myth that there's five, there's actually eight, and like 415 00:22:34,784 --> 00:22:37,769 we had a whole paradigm shift on the Maslow's hierarchy. 416 00:22:37,769 --> 00:22:41,084 And so now all of us HR professionals we're questioning 417 00:22:41,484 --> 00:22:44,531 who we are at the core of ourselves, because now this 418 00:22:44,592 --> 00:22:46,162 chart's different than we thought. 419 00:22:46,162 --> 00:22:51,513 But I think you know there's so much, you know amazing content 420 00:22:51,574 --> 00:22:54,932 in there and I think it's really important for us to remember 421 00:22:54,972 --> 00:23:01,228 that this is an and equation right, and it is so much about 422 00:23:01,327 --> 00:23:01,749 trust. 423 00:23:01,749 --> 00:23:05,222 To circle back with where we started this conversation, it's 424 00:23:05,303 --> 00:23:09,578 funny that we're talking about the changing workplace and the 425 00:23:09,618 --> 00:23:15,068 different generations and a little bit of a shift in 426 00:23:15,130 --> 00:23:18,480 workplace and workspace, but the reality is, all of these 427 00:23:18,580 --> 00:23:27,634 principles matter as much, if not more, in the new world of 428 00:23:27,694 --> 00:23:32,544 work, and I think so much and there's so much kind know, kind 429 00:23:32,564 --> 00:23:33,905 of noise and headlines around. 430 00:23:33,925 --> 00:23:37,109 Well, how do we, how do we manage this new world of work? 431 00:23:37,109 --> 00:23:42,256 Uh, what it sounds like to me is this is how we manage it 432 00:23:42,339 --> 00:23:45,186 right and, as opposed to thinking about it as managing 433 00:23:45,267 --> 00:23:48,963 it's, it's about how we lead and how we, how we get other people 434 00:23:48,963 --> 00:23:52,838 to to be inspired, as opposed to trying to force them to do 435 00:23:52,898 --> 00:23:57,682 something, um and so so I'm curious, because I guarantee you 436 00:23:57,682 --> 00:23:59,334 that there's people listening to this podcast that are like, 437 00:23:59,354 --> 00:24:02,905 you know, this sounds great and, yeah, we understand that trust 438 00:24:02,965 --> 00:24:07,804 is important, but you know we're giving up a lot of power by 439 00:24:07,864 --> 00:24:08,726 leading like this. 440 00:24:08,726 --> 00:24:11,092 So what do you say to people who are, who are worried about 441 00:24:11,132 --> 00:24:16,250 this, like this shift, or shift away from, like having this 442 00:24:16,330 --> 00:24:20,467 control into what what some might say is a little bit more, 443 00:24:20,788 --> 00:24:25,303 more open-ended, or or you know, the uh, the comment that you 444 00:24:25,323 --> 00:24:28,170 made earlier was, well, we can't trust them, right? 445 00:24:28,170 --> 00:24:29,292 Um, so so how do we? 446 00:24:29,292 --> 00:24:30,865 How do we shift our thinking and what? 447 00:24:30,865 --> 00:24:33,220 What's your response to people who are maybe kind of thinking 448 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:34,863 that or have that as a response? 449 00:24:35,063 --> 00:24:35,564 Speaker 2: Well similar. 450 00:24:35,564 --> 00:24:38,267 Like we were talking about motivation and inspiration and 451 00:24:38,307 --> 00:24:39,148 the and approach. 452 00:24:39,148 --> 00:24:42,252 You know the third alternative that great inspiration will 453 00:24:42,292 --> 00:24:44,415 include motivation as well as a base. 454 00:24:44,415 --> 00:24:48,825 See the same thing for this kind of leadership that in a 455 00:24:48,884 --> 00:24:54,692 sense, in a sense, the opposite of command and control is not 456 00:24:54,792 --> 00:24:57,076 trust and inspire, I just put it this way. 457 00:24:57,076 --> 00:25:01,768 The opposite of command and control I would call abdicate 458 00:25:02,669 --> 00:25:03,351 and abandon. 459 00:25:03,351 --> 00:25:06,643 You know, where there's no leadership there, no 460 00:25:06,682 --> 00:25:10,891 expectations, no accountability, no direction, no vision, where? 461 00:25:10,891 --> 00:25:14,788 So if command and control is excessively hands-on you you 462 00:25:14,807 --> 00:25:17,785 know, excessively hands-on, so I'm micromanaging abdicate and 463 00:25:17,825 --> 00:25:21,942 abandon is excessively hands-off no leadership, no expectations, 464 00:25:21,942 --> 00:25:26,532 no accountability, and that's not going to work, no more than 465 00:25:27,981 --> 00:25:30,866 excessive micromanagement is going to work very well in a new 466 00:25:30,866 --> 00:25:31,208 world. 467 00:25:31,208 --> 00:25:34,634 So trust and inspire is really a third alternative. 468 00:25:34,634 --> 00:25:40,284 It's hand in hand, we're doing this with each other and we're 469 00:25:40,324 --> 00:25:45,279 building the agreement together around the results that we're 470 00:25:45,299 --> 00:25:45,662 seeking. 471 00:25:45,662 --> 00:25:50,837 So I'm going to argue there's actually more control in a trust 472 00:25:50,837 --> 00:25:54,605 and inspire culture than there is even in a command and control 473 00:25:54,605 --> 00:25:55,026 culture. 474 00:25:55,026 --> 00:25:57,529 Because in a trust and inspire culture than there is even in a 475 00:25:57,549 --> 00:26:00,275 command and control culture, because in a command and control 476 00:26:00,275 --> 00:26:08,579 culture the control comes through the micromanagement, the 477 00:26:08,579 --> 00:26:09,241 hovering over and through rules . 478 00:26:09,241 --> 00:26:11,205 In a trust and inspire culture, the control comes through the 479 00:26:11,246 --> 00:26:13,171 culture itself and through the relationship and through the 480 00:26:13,211 --> 00:26:17,161 agreement that you build together with expectations and 481 00:26:17,181 --> 00:26:18,005 with accountability. 482 00:26:18,005 --> 00:26:20,395 So you build the agreement around the trust that you're 483 00:26:20,778 --> 00:26:24,146 extending and giving and then the agreement governs. 484 00:26:24,146 --> 00:26:27,183 You don't have to hover over and micromanage people, but you 485 00:26:27,223 --> 00:26:30,395 haven't lost control because you built an agreement and people 486 00:26:30,455 --> 00:26:33,083 report on how they're doing against the agreement you built 487 00:26:33,123 --> 00:26:33,503 together. 488 00:26:33,503 --> 00:26:36,148 But you don't dictate the agreement to the MC. 489 00:26:36,148 --> 00:26:38,713 A command and control leader will just dictate the agreement, 490 00:26:38,713 --> 00:26:42,808 say here's how we'll judge you and here's how I'll see how 491 00:26:42,848 --> 00:26:44,813 you're doing, and they dictate it. 492 00:26:44,813 --> 00:26:48,570 A trust and inspire leader builds it with them and there's 493 00:26:48,631 --> 00:26:52,201 far more buy-in to it because there's more involvement, 494 00:26:52,221 --> 00:26:54,788 there's more commitment to it, there's more buy-in to achieve 495 00:26:54,827 --> 00:26:55,169 it better. 496 00:26:55,169 --> 00:26:59,378 And I'm going to argue there's more control in this agreement 497 00:26:59,398 --> 00:27:02,527 that you've built together and people evaluate themselves 498 00:27:02,586 --> 00:27:03,288 against the agreement. 499 00:27:03,288 --> 00:27:05,141 They report back to you on how they're doing. 500 00:27:05,141 --> 00:27:08,930 It looks and feels different and yet there's more control in 501 00:27:08,950 --> 00:27:08,990 it. 502 00:27:08,990 --> 00:27:11,202 So I see it as a third alternative. 503 00:27:11,202 --> 00:27:16,459 And to those that argue that this seems soft and weak, I'm 504 00:27:16,499 --> 00:27:19,786 saying you're describing abdicate and abandon, not trust 505 00:27:19,826 --> 00:27:20,407 and inspire. 506 00:27:20,407 --> 00:27:22,311 This is a third alternative. 507 00:27:22,311 --> 00:27:37,093 As a trust and inspire leader, you can be author, visionary, 508 00:27:38,034 --> 00:27:39,695 without being exclusive. 509 00:27:39,695 --> 00:27:45,534 You can be even detail-oriented without being trusting, and you 510 00:27:45,534 --> 00:27:47,661 can be in charge and have control without being 511 00:27:48,303 --> 00:27:48,923 controlling. 512 00:27:48,923 --> 00:27:51,391 But you do it through the agreement that you build 513 00:27:51,431 --> 00:27:53,363 together and it's really powerful. 514 00:27:53,363 --> 00:27:57,986 And so that's my response to the kind of the cynic that's 515 00:27:58,006 --> 00:28:01,031 saying this sounds nice but it sounds soft and weak. 516 00:28:01,031 --> 00:28:04,126 I'm saying no, this is actually the strongest form of 517 00:28:04,146 --> 00:28:05,852 leadership we can lead with today. 518 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:11,230 Maybe one last idea, framing on this third alternative idea and 519 00:28:11,250 --> 00:28:13,765 you mentioned it, you know about management and leadership. 520 00:28:13,765 --> 00:28:16,564 Again, it's not management is bad, leadership is good. 521 00:28:16,564 --> 00:28:19,074 They're both good, they're both vital. 522 00:28:19,074 --> 00:28:22,123 We need good management, just like we need good leadership. 523 00:28:22,123 --> 00:28:23,625 The key is the context. 524 00:28:23,625 --> 00:28:30,387 We manage things, we lead people, and we need great 525 00:28:30,468 --> 00:28:33,339 management of things, of systems , of structures, of processes, 526 00:28:34,163 --> 00:28:36,390 of tools, of inventories, of the numbers of the business. 527 00:28:36,390 --> 00:28:39,339 We manage things but we lead people. 528 00:28:39,339 --> 00:28:43,633 But sometimes we've gotten so good at managing things that we 529 00:28:43,673 --> 00:28:48,182 start to manage people as if they were things, and if we keep 530 00:28:48,182 --> 00:28:51,757 doing that in this new world, we might end up with no people 531 00:28:51,777 --> 00:28:53,863 in a lot of things, because they have choices. 532 00:28:53,903 --> 00:28:54,664 They have options. 533 00:28:54,664 --> 00:28:55,556 They can go elsewhere. 534 00:28:55,556 --> 00:28:56,498 It's not either. 535 00:28:56,498 --> 00:28:59,484 Or it's in Manage, things lead people. 536 00:28:59,484 --> 00:29:01,435 Let's get really good at this. 537 00:29:01,435 --> 00:29:05,878 And Trust Inspire equips us with both mindsets for the 538 00:29:05,940 --> 00:29:07,946 different contexts that we bring to it. 539 00:29:07,946 --> 00:29:10,856 So I think this is actually strong leadership. 540 00:29:10,856 --> 00:29:13,647 It has control built in, a different kind of control. 541 00:29:13,647 --> 00:29:16,919 It's not hovering over micromanagement, but it's rather 542 00:29:16,919 --> 00:29:19,787 control through the agreement we built together, through the 543 00:29:19,835 --> 00:29:22,640 context of the culture and the relationship that we've 544 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:23,180 established. 545 00:29:24,663 --> 00:29:27,086 Speaker 1: That makes sense, absolutely, yeah, absolutely, 546 00:29:27,106 --> 00:29:31,558 and I I think it's you know the um, what, what's what's really 547 00:29:31,578 --> 00:29:34,606 interesting about this, this approach is you know, a lot of 548 00:29:34,646 --> 00:29:37,361 times I think the perception of command and control is, you know 549 00:29:37,361 --> 00:29:40,135 , it's all about always understanding what's happening 550 00:29:40,256 --> 00:29:45,026 and and and tracking and you know, ver and verifying and 551 00:29:45,827 --> 00:29:46,548 micromanaging. 552 00:29:46,615 --> 00:29:49,777 I think it would be a common definition there, and a lot of 553 00:29:49,817 --> 00:29:52,207 times we can trick ourselves into thinking we actually know 554 00:29:52,247 --> 00:29:53,994 what's happening or we know what people are doing. 555 00:29:54,615 --> 00:29:57,460 But the reality is, at least in my experience, a lot of times, 556 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:00,565 when there's an absence of trust in that style of management, 557 00:30:00,925 --> 00:30:07,656 you actually don't know what's going on, because people are 558 00:30:07,676 --> 00:30:09,403 afraid to tell you and so that you know they're, they're, maybe 559 00:30:09,403 --> 00:30:10,928 they're modifying the system so that it looks like something's 560 00:30:10,948 --> 00:30:11,108 happened. 561 00:30:11,108 --> 00:30:13,700 But I, a lot of times you're surprised and it actually it's a 562 00:30:13,700 --> 00:30:17,147 lack of control that actually exists in a system, because, 563 00:30:18,055 --> 00:30:21,278 because you don't have that level of trust and and and you 564 00:30:21,318 --> 00:30:23,641 don't, you know, you don't have the inspiration for people to be 565 00:30:23,641 --> 00:30:28,586 inspired enough to say, hey, if we make this decision, this is 566 00:30:28,625 --> 00:30:31,108 what's going to happen to the customer sentiment down the road 567 00:30:31,108 --> 00:30:33,590 , because this is what you know, like you just, you won't have 568 00:30:33,611 --> 00:30:36,163 that dialogue, you'll have more poor results, right? 569 00:30:36,163 --> 00:30:39,460 So I think to that point a little bit of a light bulb 570 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:39,701 moment. 571 00:30:39,701 --> 00:30:39,921 For me. 572 00:30:39,921 --> 00:30:42,184 It was like well, command and control you don't. 573 00:30:42,184 --> 00:30:43,866 You might even know what you're trying to control. 574 00:30:43,866 --> 00:30:46,576 You might not even have the right information. 575 00:30:46,917 --> 00:30:47,599 Speaker 2: That's terrific. 576 00:30:47,599 --> 00:30:48,762 That's really insightful. 577 00:30:48,762 --> 00:30:53,140 Kyle, I agree completely that even the control that you have 578 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:57,108 is not as robust as you thought it was, because it's not genuine 579 00:30:57,108 --> 00:30:58,398 , it's not dealing with the real issues. 580 00:30:58,398 --> 00:31:01,005 You're only getting what people are willing to say, what they 581 00:31:01,025 --> 00:31:04,488 dare to say and willing to speak up about, but not everything 582 00:31:04,548 --> 00:31:08,609 else that's truly happening, because there's fear and they're 583 00:31:08,609 --> 00:31:11,612 not going to say it, and so there's a whole lot of things 584 00:31:11,632 --> 00:31:14,659 that you don't even know about the organization or the culture 585 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:16,623 and it's not being volunteered. 586 00:31:16,623 --> 00:31:20,297 So your control is a false sense of control. 587 00:31:20,297 --> 00:31:26,884 It's really not as robust in any sense and as real as this 588 00:31:26,984 --> 00:31:27,145 other. 589 00:31:27,295 --> 00:31:29,462 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think anybody listening to this podcast. 590 00:31:29,462 --> 00:31:31,911 First of all, I don't think that there's anybody listening 591 00:31:31,931 --> 00:31:32,355 to this podcast. 592 00:31:32,355 --> 00:31:34,060 That's like arguing against this. 593 00:31:34,060 --> 00:31:36,455 It's more like I think that context is important for the 594 00:31:36,496 --> 00:31:38,976 people that are going to push back on HR professionals, that 595 00:31:38,996 --> 00:31:39,696 are pushing for this. 596 00:31:39,696 --> 00:31:44,241 That's right Most commonly, but I think every HR professional 597 00:31:44,261 --> 00:31:46,002 right now is just kind of smirking themselves and going, 598 00:31:46,022 --> 00:31:50,288 yep, I've seen that so many times where we all think that we 599 00:31:50,288 --> 00:31:52,911 know what's happening, especially in the boardroom or 600 00:31:52,931 --> 00:31:58,357 in a conference room or in a meeting, and then we go out and 601 00:31:58,377 --> 00:32:00,246 we talk to that one person, one person out there on the floor 602 00:32:00,306 --> 00:32:02,335 that knows exactly what's going on, and they tell us the truth. 603 00:32:02,335 --> 00:32:04,458 And a lot of times HR is the middle person between that, 604 00:32:04,478 --> 00:32:07,786 where we're trying to convey the reality of what's happening to 605 00:32:08,086 --> 00:32:12,703 leadership and we've got a front row seat to the ineffectiveness 606 00:32:12,703 --> 00:32:13,866 of this style at times. 607 00:32:14,047 --> 00:32:16,297 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I do think that HR can be the catalyst to 608 00:32:16,457 --> 00:32:18,101 help shift the paradigm. 609 00:32:18,101 --> 00:32:20,885 I agree To help bring this about, to give people a new 610 00:32:20,905 --> 00:32:23,470 vision of where we can go, can be the catalyst to help shift 611 00:32:23,490 --> 00:32:24,050 the paradigm. 612 00:32:24,050 --> 00:32:25,976 I agree To help bring this about, to give people a new 613 00:32:26,336 --> 00:32:29,484 vision of where we can go and why we need to go there and why 614 00:32:29,505 --> 00:32:30,688 this is a better way to lead. 615 00:32:30,688 --> 00:32:36,365 And they can speak, when we speak the language, of what the 616 00:32:37,146 --> 00:32:39,478 line leaders are wanting, the business leaders are wanting, so 617 00:32:39,478 --> 00:32:43,174 that we're relevant to them but paint the vision of what's 618 00:32:43,256 --> 00:32:45,500 possible in their language. 619 00:32:45,500 --> 00:32:49,249 That's where we really make a connection and show that we 620 00:32:49,315 --> 00:32:51,780 understand the business and we know how to lead the business to 621 00:32:51,780 --> 00:32:52,343 that point. 622 00:32:52,343 --> 00:32:55,721 And I think HR can lead this like no one else. 623 00:32:55,721 --> 00:32:58,292 For all those reasons and I do agree that this probably 624 00:32:58,333 --> 00:33:01,819 resonates with the HR professional that says I know 625 00:33:01,859 --> 00:33:04,965 I've been trying to say this and I'm trying to give the language 626 00:33:04,965 --> 00:33:07,816 of how we can connect it to the very things that the line 627 00:33:07,836 --> 00:33:10,624 leaders want, which I know is what the HR team is wanting to 628 00:33:10,664 --> 00:33:14,099 do as well, and so it's really a powerful connection. 629 00:33:14,099 --> 00:33:20,420 But here's the thing, for all our progress that we've made in 630 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:24,167 the HR community, in the leadership community, towards 631 00:33:24,268 --> 00:33:24,489 kind of. 632 00:33:25,275 --> 00:33:26,779 Someone might hear this and say this is really not. 633 00:33:26,779 --> 00:33:28,365 Is this really a new way to lead? 634 00:33:28,365 --> 00:33:31,580 Haven't we been talking about this for the last decade plus? 635 00:33:31,580 --> 00:33:37,439 Well, we have, but we're still not doing it, and the data shows 636 00:33:37,439 --> 00:33:41,144 that still, about nine out of 10 organizations are still 637 00:33:41,865 --> 00:33:46,131 trapped in some form of the command and control model. 638 00:33:46,131 --> 00:33:50,597 It may not be the authoritarian approach, it might be the more 639 00:33:50,959 --> 00:33:54,759 enlightened version of it, but still the majority, the vast 640 00:33:54,819 --> 00:33:58,028 majority, are still trapped in command and control. 641 00:33:58,028 --> 00:34:04,138 And I argue this to know and not to do is not to know. 642 00:34:04,138 --> 00:34:06,160 So we're still not. 643 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,443 The fact that we're not doing it means that we still haven't 644 00:34:09,983 --> 00:34:13,985 made the leap, broken through, shifted the paradigm, and we've 645 00:34:14,085 --> 00:34:17,047 got to do that, and I think HR can be a catalyst to lead us 646 00:34:17,108 --> 00:34:17,768 towards that. 647 00:34:18,548 --> 00:34:22,572 Speaker 1: To lead us towards that Absolutely, and I think you 648 00:34:22,572 --> 00:34:29,496 know to that point and I've always said this you know HR is 649 00:34:29,516 --> 00:34:31,400 in a unique point, in a position where we have a lot of we have 650 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,507 a lot of power, whether we realize it or not, and one of 651 00:34:34,527 --> 00:34:37,460 those areas where we have the ability to really shape an 652 00:34:37,599 --> 00:34:40,907 organization is the learning and development journey that we 653 00:34:40,994 --> 00:34:41,956 take our leaders through. 654 00:34:41,956 --> 00:34:45,385 And so one thing I did want to talk about maybe going back to 655 00:34:45,405 --> 00:34:50,248 the speed of trust is I know that there's been a focus on 656 00:34:50,489 --> 00:34:54,260 updating some of the content to be more reflective of the 657 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:58,704 shifting world of work and that you've got some new courses 658 00:34:58,744 --> 00:35:02,403 available specifically to help HR professionals on their 659 00:35:02,425 --> 00:35:05,820 learning and development related to trust and a couple of new 660 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:06,382 workshops. 661 00:35:06,382 --> 00:35:09,476 Can you tell us a little bit about the workshops the leading 662 00:35:09,516 --> 00:35:11,523 at the speed of trust and working at the speed of trust 663 00:35:11,543 --> 00:35:12,615 workshops that you've been working on? 664 00:35:13,237 --> 00:35:13,739 Speaker 2: Absolutely. 665 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:17,413 Yeah, this is all about helping leaders and teams and 666 00:35:17,452 --> 00:35:20,922 organizations build high trust teams, high trust cultures, 667 00:35:21,623 --> 00:35:22,346 getting good at this. 668 00:35:22,346 --> 00:35:28,045 And we've had these workshops really for a decade plus 15 669 00:35:28,065 --> 00:35:28,585 years plus. 670 00:35:28,585 --> 00:35:30,509 That have been superb. 671 00:35:30,509 --> 00:35:33,443 We just have a new, refreshed, updated version of it. 672 00:35:33,443 --> 00:35:38,458 So those that have used the Speed of Trust stuff, it's just 673 00:35:38,557 --> 00:35:41,802 a refreshed, re-imagined, updated version for our time. 674 00:35:42,664 --> 00:35:47,773 And what I would highlight is that we've also got now we're 675 00:35:47,793 --> 00:35:49,981 showing how trust is built through our credibility and our 676 00:35:50,021 --> 00:35:53,115 behavior, which is kind of the essence of the speed of trust, 677 00:35:53,717 --> 00:35:57,585 of helping people do it intentionally, on purpose, and 678 00:35:57,925 --> 00:35:59,920 giving them a framework and a language and a process of how to 679 00:35:59,920 --> 00:36:00,161 do it. 680 00:36:00,161 --> 00:36:04,117 And now we've gone to going to another level of saying not only 681 00:36:04,117 --> 00:36:08,880 can we do this as leaders and as individuals, but we can do it 682 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,659 as a team and as an organization and build a 683 00:36:11,699 --> 00:36:14,005 high-trust culture and build a high-trust team. 684 00:36:14,005 --> 00:36:18,166 So we've got a whole new module on building high-trust teams 685 00:36:19,264 --> 00:36:21,664 through credibility and behavior and high-trust relationships 686 00:36:21,706 --> 00:36:24,460 with customers and partners through credibility and behavior 687 00:36:24,460 --> 00:36:26,228 and high trust relationship with customers and partners 688 00:36:26,268 --> 00:36:26,971 through credibility and behavior . 689 00:36:26,971 --> 00:36:28,074 It's just so practical, so tangible, so actionable. 690 00:36:28,074 --> 00:36:31,402 So I think that those that are familiar with this already will 691 00:36:31,543 --> 00:36:34,297 love it because it takes it to a whole nother level. 692 00:36:34,998 --> 00:36:38,065 And those that aren't familiar with it, this will be kind of a 693 00:36:38,164 --> 00:36:42,869 natural next step to say, okay, how do we if, if, if, if? 694 00:36:42,869 --> 00:36:46,141 Building a high trust, team and culture is so important, how do 695 00:36:46,141 --> 00:36:46,521 we do it? 696 00:36:46,521 --> 00:36:48,347 How do I lead that from HR? 697 00:36:48,347 --> 00:36:51,056 And this will help you do precisely that. 698 00:36:51,056 --> 00:36:55,286 It gives you the, the language, the framework, the process of 699 00:36:55,327 --> 00:36:59,039 becoming, you know, intentionally good at building 700 00:36:59,079 --> 00:37:03,007 trust on purpose in our teams and organizations, and so we're 701 00:37:03,027 --> 00:37:07,903 excited, delighted about what we've done to make this so fresh 702 00:37:07,903 --> 00:37:10,976 , so relevant in our world today , which it really is, and it 703 00:37:11,018 --> 00:37:14,146 really kind of is fitting this language of trust and inspire, 704 00:37:14,206 --> 00:37:17,181 of really being where you know, meeting people, where we're at 705 00:37:17,824 --> 00:37:21,297 and where society is at and people are at today, to keep 706 00:37:21,317 --> 00:37:22,657 this fresh and relevant for others. 707 00:37:24,179 --> 00:37:27,264 Speaker 1: Absolutely and, and you know maybe a maybe a comment 708 00:37:27,264 --> 00:37:27,664 on that. 709 00:37:27,664 --> 00:37:30,367 You know I've I've used speed of trust, and, and and those 710 00:37:30,407 --> 00:37:38,036 types of tools for for many years as a, as a practicing HR 711 00:37:38,056 --> 00:37:38,297 professional. 712 00:37:38,297 --> 00:37:39,518 I I I try to give it to any leader that's going through some 713 00:37:39,518 --> 00:37:39,940 development with me. 714 00:37:39,940 --> 00:37:41,503 One of the I think the one of the really powerful things about 715 00:37:41,503 --> 00:37:44,378 that book is it gives you a structure to talk about trust. 716 00:37:44,378 --> 00:37:47,086 It's not this nebulous concept. 717 00:37:47,086 --> 00:37:50,115 It actually gets down to building out some language 718 00:37:51,340 --> 00:37:56,293 around it and some protocols to think about, and once you start 719 00:37:56,333 --> 00:37:58,297 to use that within your organization and with your 720 00:37:58,336 --> 00:38:01,061 leaders, it's pretty amazing to see that start to become 721 00:38:01,121 --> 00:38:05,509 pervasive throughout the day-to-day conversations and 722 00:38:05,548 --> 00:38:10,806 culture, and it really can help reshape your workplace. 723 00:38:10,806 --> 00:38:13,443 So I would strongly encourage anybody to check that out. 724 00:38:13,554 --> 00:38:17,170 I think I can guarantee you I haven't got to the new workshops 725 00:38:17,170 --> 00:38:19,891 yet, but I can guarantee you that it's going to be well worth 726 00:38:19,891 --> 00:38:20,235 your time. 727 00:38:20,235 --> 00:38:21,762 So, with that being said, you are an extremely be well with 728 00:38:21,782 --> 00:38:22,385 you with your time. 729 00:38:22,385 --> 00:38:25,418 So, with that being said, you are an extremely busy man and 730 00:38:25,518 --> 00:38:26,740 sincerely appreciate your time. 731 00:38:26,740 --> 00:38:30,516 We are quickly coming to the close of our available time 732 00:38:30,536 --> 00:38:30,818 together. 733 00:38:30,818 --> 00:38:34,186 I'm fascinated to hear your responses to the rebel HR flash 734 00:38:34,246 --> 00:38:34,427 round. 735 00:38:34,427 --> 00:38:34,875 Are you ready? 736 00:38:35,836 --> 00:38:38,139 I'm ready, yeah all right, here we go. 737 00:38:38,139 --> 00:38:41,342 Question number one where does hr need to rebel? 738 00:38:43,626 --> 00:38:48,777 Speaker 2: hr needs to rebel against command and control and 739 00:38:48,818 --> 00:38:51,987 say there's a better way to lead , and it's trust and inspire. 740 00:38:51,987 --> 00:38:56,436 And I know they rebel already in the paradigm. 741 00:38:56,436 --> 00:39:01,422 Now I think we need to shift beyond the paradigm, into the 742 00:39:01,523 --> 00:39:07,650 language, into the systems, into the structures and the 743 00:39:07,710 --> 00:39:14,222 practices, so that we're saying we must make this shift, because 744 00:39:14,222 --> 00:39:20,168 I believe that command and control is the equivalent of 745 00:39:20,268 --> 00:39:23,527 modern day bloodletting, if you think about it. 746 00:39:23,527 --> 00:39:27,164 Bloodletting went on for 3000 years, started with the 747 00:39:27,204 --> 00:39:29,331 Egyptians, went to the Romans, but it persisted. 748 00:39:29,331 --> 00:39:34,166 And even when it was disproven that it doesn't work the disease 749 00:39:34,166 --> 00:39:35,047 was not in the blood. 750 00:39:35,047 --> 00:39:41,342 That was in the 15 and 1600s it still persisted for another 250 751 00:39:41,342 --> 00:39:41,884 years. 752 00:39:41,884 --> 00:39:45,030 It was still practiced because old paradigms die hard. 753 00:39:45,030 --> 00:39:49,177 And so, while the HR I think community gets it that we need 754 00:39:49,197 --> 00:39:53,293 to make this shift, I think the practice of command and control 755 00:39:53,333 --> 00:39:57,119 leadership is still the common practice and that is modern day 756 00:39:57,159 --> 00:39:57,601 bloodletting. 757 00:39:57,655 --> 00:40:01,277 We need to rebel against modern day bloodletting and say no, 758 00:40:01,317 --> 00:40:10,416 we've got to lead in a new way and it's in our language. 759 00:40:10,416 --> 00:40:11,882 Even you know the idea of of top down and hierarchies and the 760 00:40:11,882 --> 00:40:13,206 front line and and rank and file. 761 00:40:13,206 --> 00:40:14,269 It's just in our language. 762 00:40:14,269 --> 00:40:16,036 We got to choose different language. 763 00:40:16,036 --> 00:40:19,846 In our systems we have, you know, we look at high potentials 764 00:40:19,846 --> 00:40:22,914 what does that say about everybody else and how you've 765 00:40:22,934 --> 00:40:29,262 seen others and we look at the structures and the processes and 766 00:40:29,262 --> 00:40:31,005 there's just a lot of rebelling . 767 00:40:31,045 --> 00:40:35,297 We need to do and say no, it's not span of control, it's span 768 00:40:35,338 --> 00:40:38,556 of care, as Bob Chapman says and others, and we're going to 769 00:40:38,597 --> 00:40:41,663 rebel in our language, in our systems, in our structures, in 770 00:40:41,702 --> 00:40:44,829 our processes, in our tools, and we're going to become trust and 771 00:40:44,829 --> 00:40:45,208 inspire. 772 00:40:45,208 --> 00:40:47,541 And so that's it. 773 00:40:47,541 --> 00:40:50,981 We got to rebel against command and control, not just in the 774 00:40:51,021 --> 00:40:54,746 paradigm, which I think is where it starts, but in the systems 775 00:40:54,788 --> 00:40:57,211 and the structures and the processes and the tools and in 776 00:40:57,231 --> 00:40:59,054 the very language that we're using. 777 00:40:59,054 --> 00:41:03,887 And I think we can rebel and be the catalyst to change the way 778 00:41:03,927 --> 00:41:06,942 that we practice this in all its respect. 779 00:41:06,942 --> 00:41:08,806 We can get rid of bloodletting. 780 00:41:10,856 --> 00:41:12,663 Speaker 1: And we can do it faster than 250 years. 781 00:41:13,155 --> 00:41:14,961 Speaker 2: We can do it faster, we can do it so much faster. 782 00:41:15,614 --> 00:41:16,376 Speaker 1: Couldn't agree more. 783 00:41:16,376 --> 00:41:18,061 Very well said. 784 00:41:18,061 --> 00:41:20,646 Question number two who should we be listening to? 785 00:41:20,646 --> 00:41:21,516 Question number two who should we be? 786 00:41:21,577 --> 00:41:25,583 Speaker 2: listening to Thinkers , leaders, practitioners that 787 00:41:25,643 --> 00:41:28,869 are saying this very thing that we need a paradigm shift. 788 00:41:28,869 --> 00:41:35,797 We need a sea change, a dramatic shift, not an 789 00:41:35,818 --> 00:41:36,478 incremental shift. 790 00:41:36,478 --> 00:41:39,184 And because incrementalism won't get us to where we need to 791 00:41:39,184 --> 00:41:44,815 be, it won't build a high-trust culture that inspires, and it 792 00:41:44,836 --> 00:41:46,269 won't help us collaborate and innovate in a changing, shifting 793 00:41:46,269 --> 00:41:48,420 , disruptive world, it won't do it fast enough. 794 00:41:48,420 --> 00:41:53,081 And you know we don't have the 250 years, we don't have two and 795 00:41:53,081 --> 00:41:53,583 a half years. 796 00:41:53,583 --> 00:41:54,639 We got to move faster. 797 00:41:54,639 --> 00:42:02,117 And so for leaders and thinkers I'm just thinking of Francis 798 00:42:02,197 --> 00:42:05,101 Fry and Ann Morris, harvard Business School. 799 00:42:05,121 --> 00:42:10,250 Francis Fry, who wrote Unleashed and this new book, move Fast 800 00:42:10,269 --> 00:42:13,085 and Fix Things, you know, that are just saying we've got to 801 00:42:13,106 --> 00:42:14,175 move fast and fix things. 802 00:42:14,175 --> 00:42:17,925 We've got a new paradigm, unleashing everyone and the 803 00:42:17,965 --> 00:42:18,827 potential, the greatness. 804 00:42:18,827 --> 00:42:28,277 Potential, the greatness, you know, thinking of Aaron Meyer 805 00:42:28,297 --> 00:42:29,800 and Reed Hastings and the no rules rule that they've employed 806 00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:30,021 at Netflix. 807 00:42:30,021 --> 00:42:33,556 That includes getting rid of controls as you increase the 808 00:42:33,597 --> 00:42:36,907 trust and the straight talk and all the things that are 809 00:42:36,927 --> 00:42:40,617 happening to try to unleash the controls that are in place, that 810 00:42:40,617 --> 00:42:44,947 are traditional, and we've got to get rid of them in a way that 811 00:42:44,947 --> 00:42:45,969 really is working. 812 00:42:45,969 --> 00:42:52,889 And so thinkers like this Doug Conant, great practitioner, 813 00:42:53,715 --> 00:42:56,322 thinker, who wrote the Blueprint , and others that are thinking 814 00:42:56,362 --> 00:43:02,461 about whole new ways of leading, so big paradigm shifters that 815 00:43:02,481 --> 00:43:02,742 are not. 816 00:43:02,742 --> 00:43:06,996 They're not into incremental shifts and change, but into sea 817 00:43:07,016 --> 00:43:09,264 changes and dramatic changes. 818 00:43:09,264 --> 00:43:13,275 And I'm trying to say this the the big shift is to move from 819 00:43:13,315 --> 00:43:14,639 command and control to trust, inspire. 820 00:43:14,639 --> 00:43:15,844 That's. 821 00:43:15,844 --> 00:43:18,735 That's the type of thing that we need love it, love it. 822 00:43:19,135 --> 00:43:21,782 Speaker 1: the world's not changing incrementally, it's 823 00:43:21,802 --> 00:43:22,706 changing exponentially. 824 00:43:27,155 --> 00:43:28,237 Speaker 2: The world is changing exponentially and our style of 825 00:43:28,257 --> 00:43:29,420 leadership needs to change exponentially with it. 826 00:43:29,460 --> 00:43:30,503 Speaker 1: You need to get ahead of it Absolutely. 827 00:43:30,503 --> 00:43:33,096 Last question how can our listeners reach out, connect 828 00:43:33,115 --> 00:43:35,483 with you and get their hands on the book and the workshops? 829 00:43:36,275 --> 00:43:36,675 Speaker 2: Wonderful. 830 00:43:36,675 --> 00:43:41,565 We'll go to trustandinspirecom, which is a website, and there 831 00:43:41,606 --> 00:43:42,869 you can get the book. 832 00:43:42,869 --> 00:43:46,865 You can get other resources, tools, ideas, thinking around 833 00:43:46,905 --> 00:43:49,422 this, and I'd love you to connect with me. 834 00:43:49,422 --> 00:43:51,740 I'm on LinkedIn. 835 00:43:51,740 --> 00:43:57,539 You can follow me on LinkedIn, Also on X the old Twitter, and 836 00:43:57,699 --> 00:44:05,585 on Instagram at StephenMRCovey, and so follow me. 837 00:44:05,585 --> 00:44:10,750 Go to TrustAndInspirecom, connect with me and love to be 838 00:44:10,789 --> 00:44:13,692 able to help in any way that I can, that we can, our team. 839 00:44:26,295 --> 00:44:27,619 This is exciting work and I would just say this to you in HR 840 00:44:27,619 --> 00:44:28,001 , you can go first. 841 00:44:28,001 --> 00:44:28,543 Someone needs to go first. 842 00:44:28,543 --> 00:44:29,869 Leaders go first and as an HR professional, you can go first. 843 00:44:29,869 --> 00:44:30,311 I'm right now working. 844 00:44:30,311 --> 00:44:32,119 I'll give you two cases of the HR team going first, the HR 845 00:44:32,139 --> 00:44:32,963 leader going first. 846 00:44:32,963 --> 00:44:35,914 One where we're dealing with an organization that is going 847 00:44:35,954 --> 00:44:40,125 through all kinds of change but they're trapped in a command and 848 00:44:40,125 --> 00:44:41,088 control style of leadership. 849 00:44:41,088 --> 00:44:43,181 They almost don't see it. 850 00:44:43,181 --> 00:44:46,043 They're like fish that discover water last. 851 00:44:46,043 --> 00:44:49,163 They're so immersed in it they're not even aware that it's 852 00:44:49,163 --> 00:44:50,766 in how they're leading. 853 00:44:50,766 --> 00:44:53,903 But the HR team is the team that's putting up the mirror. 854 00:44:53,903 --> 00:44:58,365 But they are modeling by first applying this within their own 855 00:44:58,425 --> 00:45:00,996 team and they're going first and they're helping. 856 00:45:00,996 --> 00:45:04,445 Then the rest of the organization see that, that they 857 00:45:04,445 --> 00:45:04,967 can do this. 858 00:45:04,967 --> 00:45:08,195 But they're seeing a model by in the HR team by showing them 859 00:45:08,215 --> 00:45:10,501 there's a better way to lead and look how we're doing it. 860 00:45:10,501 --> 00:45:14,318 That is pretty remarkable and they're helping, and they're and 861 00:45:14,318 --> 00:45:17,567 they're helping the rest of the team see how they can do it too 862 00:45:17,567 --> 00:45:17,567 . 863 00:45:17,567 --> 00:45:19,577 And and and then. 864 00:45:19,617 --> 00:45:22,925 A second example of when I actually highlight in the Trust 865 00:45:22,965 --> 00:45:27,885 Inspire book, of how a huge paradigm shift happened where 866 00:45:28,126 --> 00:45:30,735 the CEO got behind all the changes that needed to be made 867 00:45:30,875 --> 00:45:32,659 and everyone says we need a CEO like that. 868 00:45:34,083 --> 00:45:36,755 And what I point out is that it didn't start with the CEO. 869 00:45:36,755 --> 00:45:38,760 It started with the leader of HR. 870 00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:42,349 They began to implement these changes within her organization, 871 00:45:42,349 --> 00:45:45,882 her team, and, as they did it there, they then began to work 872 00:45:45,943 --> 00:45:48,896 within the partner organizations that they served with as 873 00:45:48,996 --> 00:45:53,291 partners and they began to see the business leader would work 874 00:45:53,311 --> 00:45:55,639 with the HR partner and began to see a better way of working 875 00:45:55,679 --> 00:45:59,474 together, began to model, it began to bring it in there and 876 00:45:59,615 --> 00:46:03,554 one by one, almost business unit by business unit, it got 877 00:46:03,653 --> 00:46:05,498 brought to the CEO of a better way to lead. 878 00:46:05,498 --> 00:46:08,646 And finally the CEO said gosh, I'm talking to several of you, 879 00:46:08,994 --> 00:46:09,777 my direct reports. 880 00:46:09,777 --> 00:46:13,586 You're doing this in a different way and don't we need 881 00:46:13,606 --> 00:46:16,722 this for the whole organization and bought into it organization 882 00:46:16,782 --> 00:46:18,206 wide and you love that. 883 00:46:18,226 --> 00:46:21,016 And I've had people say, gosh, we need a CEO like that. 884 00:46:21,016 --> 00:46:24,297 And I say yes, but it didn't start with the CEO. 885 00:46:24,297 --> 00:46:28,858 It started with Janita, within her circle of influence, 886 00:46:28,938 --> 00:46:31,639 bringing about this change within the HR team and it 887 00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:35,722 rippled out and then up and then down throughout the entire 888 00:46:35,742 --> 00:46:36,282 organization. 889 00:46:36,282 --> 00:46:40,043 That's what we need and you and HR can go first. 890 00:46:41,583 --> 00:46:42,005 Speaker 1: I love it. 891 00:46:42,005 --> 00:46:44,905 I love it, Steven. 892 00:46:44,905 --> 00:46:48,007 It's been absolutely amazing to have you on the podcast. 893 00:46:48,007 --> 00:46:49,907 Thank you again so much for joining us. 894 00:46:49,907 --> 00:46:52,469 Thank you for all of the wonderful content and I can't 895 00:46:52,489 --> 00:46:54,329 wait to see what you come up with next. 896 00:46:54,329 --> 00:46:56,590 We will have all those links in the show notes. 897 00:46:56,590 --> 00:46:58,351 Please open up the podcast player. 898 00:46:58,351 --> 00:46:59,652 Check it out. 899 00:46:59,652 --> 00:47:01,291 You will not be disappointed. 900 00:47:01,291 --> 00:47:04,034 Steven M R Covey, everybody Thank you. 901 00:47:09,036 --> 00:47:09,476 Speaker 2: Thank you, kyle. 902 00:47:09,476 --> 00:47:11,260 Let me just say this it's an honor to be with you, I 903 00:47:11,300 --> 00:47:12,121 appreciate you. 904 00:47:12,121 --> 00:47:13,804 I feel like I'm talking to a kindred spirit, I agree and 905 00:47:14,166 --> 00:47:17,077 really a co-catalyst to help unleash the greatness of our 906 00:47:17,117 --> 00:47:20,164 organizations by first unleashing the greatness of our 907 00:47:20,224 --> 00:47:20,543 people. 908 00:47:20,543 --> 00:47:24,157 And that's the whole idea and I love the whole premise of Rebel 909 00:47:24,157 --> 00:47:29,206 Human Resources podcast, rebel HR, and that's the kind of sea 910 00:47:29,246 --> 00:47:33,842 change that we need is taking this on, and this is an 911 00:47:33,942 --> 00:47:36,648 extraordinary place to rebel against leadership style. 912 00:47:36,648 --> 00:47:40,041 And so let's rebel and let's go from command and control to 913 00:47:40,081 --> 00:47:41,224 trust and inspire. 914 00:47:41,224 --> 00:47:44,940 And thank you for being a catalyst, a co-catalyst with me 915 00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:45,884 to help bring this about. 916 00:47:47,650 --> 00:47:49,536 Speaker 1: I'm going to just I'm just going to leave it right 917 00:47:49,577 --> 00:47:50,179 there, steven. 918 00:47:50,179 --> 00:47:51,083 Thank you so much. 919 00:47:51,083 --> 00:47:52,548 The honor is all mine. 920 00:47:52,548 --> 00:47:55,639 Thank you for everything over the years and for the continued 921 00:47:55,679 --> 00:47:56,221 inspiration. 922 00:47:56,221 --> 00:47:57,565 Thank you, you're welcome. 923 00:47:57,565 --> 00:47:58,327 Thank you, my friend. 924 00:47:58,327 --> 00:48:03,786 All right, that does it for the Rebel HR podcast. 925 00:48:03,786 --> 00:48:05,771 Big thank you to our guests. 926 00:48:05,771 --> 00:48:11,103 Follow us on Facebook at Rebel HR podcast, twitter at Rebel HR 927 00:48:11,143 --> 00:48:14,528 guy, or see our website at rebelhumanresourcescom. 928 00:48:14,528 --> 00:48:18,222 The views and opinions expressed by Rebel HR podcast 929 00:48:18,262 --> 00:48:20,438 are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the 930 00:48:20,458 --> 00:48:24,347 official policy or position of any of the organizations that we 931 00:48:24,347 --> 00:48:24,748 represent. 932 00:48:24,748 --> 00:48:28,278 No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast. 933 00:48:30,260 --> 00:48:30,581 Speaker 2: Baby.