WEBVTT 00:00:03.044 --> 00:00:08.151 This is the Rebel HR podcast, the podcast about all things innovation in the people's space. 00:00:08.151 --> 00:00:09.554 I'm Kyle Rode. 00:00:09.554 --> 00:00:10.595 Let's start the show. 00:00:10.595 --> 00:00:16.702 Welcome back, Rebel HR community. 00:00:16.702 --> 00:00:22.329 We have an honored guest with us today, so so excited. 00:00:22.329 --> 00:00:25.454 With us we have Stephen M R Covey. 00:00:25.454 --> 00:00:29.623 He is the author of Trust and Inspire and the Speed of Trust. 00:00:29.623 --> 00:00:36.744 He has been an influencer in our space for years and I am so thrilled and honored to have him with us. 00:00:36.744 --> 00:00:38.371 Thank you, Stephen, for joining us today. 00:00:39.039 --> 00:00:40.180 You are welcome, Kyle. 00:00:40.180 --> 00:00:43.143 I'm equally thrilled and honored to be with you for this podcast. 00:00:43.164 --> 00:00:44.786 I'm equally thrilled and honored to be with you for this podcast. 00:00:44.786 --> 00:00:45.866 Well, thank you so much. 00:00:45.866 --> 00:00:50.371 And before we hit record, I was totally fanboying over here. 00:00:50.371 --> 00:01:06.754 I mean, it's like full circle that we've got the Stephen M R Covey on the podcast, considering the fact that one of the motivating pieces of content and literature was the speed of trust that motivated me to start the podcast here so many years ago. 00:01:06.754 --> 00:01:09.457 So, Stephen, thank you so much for spending some time with us today. 00:01:09.659 --> 00:01:10.402 You're welcome. 00:01:10.402 --> 00:01:12.668 I was thrilled when you shared that story with me. 00:01:12.668 --> 00:01:19.673 This is one of the motivators to get going on this podcast and I'm really humbled by that and excited. 00:01:20.260 --> 00:01:36.757 Well, yeah, I really, really appreciate your time and appreciate all of the content and thought-provoking work that you've done here over the years and that your organization, franklin Covey, has done over the years with training courses and books. 00:01:36.757 --> 00:01:40.992 There's so much great content in the library there. 00:01:40.992 --> 00:01:42.620 It's just, it's been amazing. 00:01:42.620 --> 00:01:57.192 So, with that being said, today we're going to be talking all about trusting and inspiring, and the book that is available now is Trust and Inspire how Truly Great Leaders Unleash Greatness in Others. 00:01:57.192 --> 00:02:03.846 My first question to you is what motivated you to write a book labeled Trust and Inspire? 00:02:04.989 --> 00:02:07.132 Yeah, two key things. 00:02:07.132 --> 00:02:16.552 First, just seeing how everything, all these new forces of change, have just hit all at once. 00:02:16.552 --> 00:02:21.151 The nature of work is far more collaborative and interdependent than ever before. 00:02:21.151 --> 00:02:27.263 Technology is changing everything, with disruption and the pace of change and the amount of change. 00:02:27.263 --> 00:02:36.688 But also the nature of the workplace is changing, with suddenly remote work, hybrid work, intentionally flexible work, all these new options. 00:02:36.688 --> 00:02:49.812 And then the nature of the workforce has changed, where we have these younger generations, you know, gen Z, the upcoming alpha generation with completely different expectations of how they want to be engaged and led. 00:02:49.812 --> 00:03:04.705 And then even the nature of choice has changed, where we've gone from maybe what we might call multiple choice to infinite choice, where people have options in a way that they didn't have before, where I can live here, work there. 00:03:05.165 --> 00:03:06.647 All these forces of change. 00:03:06.647 --> 00:03:18.074 It's really a new world of work, and a new world of work requires a new way to lead, to continue to lead in the old way, the old model of leadership. 00:03:18.074 --> 00:03:21.086 In a new world it's not going to be relevant. 00:03:21.086 --> 00:03:26.216 I like how you know the paraphrase, marshall Goldsmith not going to be relevant. 00:03:26.216 --> 00:03:39.247 I like how you know the paraphrase, marshall Goldsmith what got us here won't get us there, and the style of leadership that maybe got us to where we are today is not the style of leadership that's going to be needed to take us to where we need to go tomorrow and in this new world of work. 00:03:39.268 --> 00:04:05.788 And so we need a new way to lead in a new world of work, and the new way, you know, I call trust and inspire, in contrast to the old way, which, for simplicity's sake, I called command and control that we've gotten better at through the years and more, more sophisticated, more advanced, more enlightened version of command and control, but still command and control and versus that, trust and inspire, so that all these forces have changed being. 00:04:05.788 --> 00:04:10.963 You know, driving around us is one of the key reasons that we've got to have a new way to lead in a new world at work. 00:04:10.963 --> 00:04:12.649 But here's the second one. 00:04:12.649 --> 00:04:46.514 It's just looking at how, almost if you, if you go around and ask HR professionals anywhere this question, how many of you believe that the vast majority of the workforce inside of your organization has far more creativity, ingenuity, capacity, knowledge, insight, wisdom than their current job requires or even allows them to contribute? 00:04:46.514 --> 00:04:56.446 Almost everyone would raise their hand and say mine does People have a lot more to give right, then we're able to give. 00:04:57.341 --> 00:05:07.252 And then the second question, the follow-on, is and how many are under intense and growing pressure to achieve more with less? 00:05:07.252 --> 00:05:10.622 And almost all of us would raise our hands to that. 00:05:10.622 --> 00:05:14.511 And so I kind of you know what's wrong with this picture. 00:05:14.511 --> 00:05:20.009 We have to do more with less, and yet people have far more to give than they're able to give. 00:05:20.009 --> 00:05:33.963 That to me, is a failure of leadership that we're not leading in a way that is unleashing the potential, the greatness, the talent that's inside of people, and and we've got to find a better way to lead than the way we've been leading. 00:05:33.963 --> 00:05:36.870 And again, I'm calling that trust and inspire. 00:05:36.870 --> 00:05:39.805 So that's more the emotional connection. 00:05:39.805 --> 00:05:41.148 The first one's more the intellectual. 00:05:41.148 --> 00:05:44.821 You know, a new way of a new world of work requires a new way to lead. 00:05:44.821 --> 00:05:51.588 But the second is kind of just saying people have so much more inside of them that we're not unleashing. 00:05:51.588 --> 00:05:57.435 You know, in service of the organization, our mission and our, our clients and our culture. 00:05:57.435 --> 00:05:58.855 We've got to tap into that. 00:06:01.425 --> 00:06:06.550 We've got to lead in a better way, absolutely, and you know, I couldn't have said it better myself. 00:06:06.550 --> 00:06:16.189 There's a reason we labeled this thing rebel human resources, and that's because we believe that there is change, some positive disruption for the better, that that needs to occur. 00:06:16.189 --> 00:06:17.973 Um, it, it's. 00:06:17.973 --> 00:06:21.829 And and I I think it's really fascinating the way you open the book. 00:06:21.829 --> 00:06:40.872 You talk about the, the old paradigm of leadership, this command and control, and I literally remember when I started early in my career, we were literally using those terms as it relates to what we defined as leadership was you need to make sure you are commanding and controlling, and it was a manufacturing environment. 00:06:40.872 --> 00:06:46.076 We had all the buzzwords, all the lean manufacturing buzzwords, but we literally use those words. 00:06:46.117 --> 00:06:52.971 So when I flipped through the book, I'm like, oh yeah, this is, this is hitting home for me, but but it's a little bit. 00:06:53.072 --> 00:07:20.512 It's a little bit thought provoking and and I love what you just said about the, the aspect of, of the emotional aspect here, where, where we know that people have more creativity, they have more to give, we know that people have more creativity, they have more to give, but we aren't allowing that right, or the environment's not allowing that, or there's something missing that's allowing people to truly connect with that higher purpose that they have. 00:07:20.533 --> 00:07:27.853 And one of the things that I love about your writing and it's the same in the Speed of Trust is you do a really nice job of putting this into models. 00:07:27.853 --> 00:07:31.704 I'm a picture guy, so I love the. 00:07:31.704 --> 00:07:40.656 There's some diagrams, there's some pictures, there's some tools within the book that helps us kind of break this down into something that's actually actionable. 00:07:40.656 --> 00:07:53.166 One of those tools is what you've described as the three stewardships of a trust and inspire leader, and I really like that framework as we start to think about how we define a trust and inspire leader. 00:07:53.166 --> 00:07:58.646 So can you walk us through those three stewardships and how we should be thinking about that in human resources? 00:07:59.208 --> 00:07:59.990 Yeah, absolutely. 00:07:59.990 --> 00:08:04.341 And first of all, let me begin by talking about the word stewardship. 00:08:04.341 --> 00:08:10.786 That's really part of the paradigm shift that we need for the kind of leadership needed today. 00:08:10.786 --> 00:08:15.670 That leadership is stewardship. 00:08:15.670 --> 00:08:21.495 It's about responsibility, not rights, influence, not position. 00:08:21.495 --> 00:08:28.264 Leadership is a choice, not a position, and these are inherent responsibilities, implicit in being a leader. 00:08:28.264 --> 00:08:33.494 So just the very idea of a stewardship versus three leadership rights. 00:08:33.659 --> 00:08:39.400 Now, these are three leadership stewardships, responsibilities that we have A job with, a trust. 00:08:39.400 --> 00:08:44.890 There's three of them and they're simple, they're just not easy, and I think people them. 00:08:44.890 --> 00:08:55.561 And they're simple, they're just not easy, and I think people, when they hear them, they say yes, of course, but sometimes our style can get in the way of our intent. 00:08:55.561 --> 00:08:56.981 And so here's what they are First, modeling. 00:08:56.981 --> 00:09:02.767 Second, trusting and third, inspiring. 00:09:02.767 --> 00:09:08.650 So we have a stewardship to model, to model the behavior that we would like to see to go. 00:09:08.650 --> 00:09:09.071 First. 00:09:09.071 --> 00:09:10.231 We have a stewardship. 00:09:10.231 --> 00:09:17.496 Second, to trust and to extend that trust, to give the trust, to be trusting of people so we unleash their potential and their greatness. 00:09:17.496 --> 00:09:28.061 And then, third, we have a stewardship, a responsibility, to inspire those around us, those who are leading to model, to trust, to inspire. 00:09:28.061 --> 00:09:29.644 Modeling is who we are. 00:09:29.644 --> 00:09:43.485 Trusting is how we lead, and inspiring is connecting to why it matters, and so those stewardships kind of comprise this new way of leading, this trust and inspire approach to leadership. 00:09:43.485 --> 00:09:46.392 I just didn't call it model, trust and inspire. 00:09:46.392 --> 00:09:52.626 I called it trust and inspire for simplicity and also to be to be in contrast to command and control. 00:09:52.626 --> 00:09:55.361 You know, command and control, trust and inspire. 00:09:55.361 --> 00:10:01.168 But there's really three elements of it we model, we trust and we inspire. 00:10:01.168 --> 00:10:15.767 And that kind of leadership is what's going to bring out the potential, the greatness, the talent that's inside of people and really create the kind of culture, a high-trust culture, where people do feel inspired. 00:10:15.767 --> 00:10:41.383 And there's a whole other level of both productivity that people have inside of them when they feel inspired, as well as creativity, an innovation that can come out of them, but also greater well-being, greater energy, greater joy. 00:10:41.383 --> 00:10:41.865 It's just so much. 00:10:41.865 --> 00:10:57.042 There's so much more that we can tap into inside of people and that they want to have for their wellbeing, their energy, their joy that they would like to have as part of the culture that will keep them with us, because they feel like we are seeking their best interests and we are unleashing with their capacity, and they love that. 00:10:57.042 --> 00:10:59.467 They want to be trusted, they want to be inspired. 00:10:59.467 --> 00:11:02.782 So we model, we trust, we inspire. 00:11:03.222 --> 00:11:11.606 If I could give just a brief illustration of a great leader who did this, I think of Cheryl Batchelder at Popeyes. 00:11:11.606 --> 00:11:36.125 When she became the CEO of Popeyes, she walks in they'd had four CEOs in the prior seven years Popeyes, the fast food franchise and she comes in a completely different kind of leader and the kind of leadership they'd had prior where they'd really there was almost a breakdown between the relationship of the franchisees with the home office. 00:11:36.125 --> 00:11:37.749 There was low trust. 00:11:37.749 --> 00:11:41.503 They not only didn't trust each other, they didn't really like each other. 00:11:41.503 --> 00:11:58.052 And she comes in and just models the kind of behavior that she would like to see, that they would like to see, with humility, balanced with courage, but also with empathy, with listening and understanding. 00:11:58.052 --> 00:12:12.160 She'd go into any conversation to try to understand first the perspective of the franchisees and everyone that she came in contact with, but then also modeling around delivering results, performing, delivering what they were looking for. 00:12:12.160 --> 00:12:16.809 And so she modeled and people liked that. 00:12:16.809 --> 00:12:20.001 They felt heard, they felt understood, they felt valued. 00:12:20.001 --> 00:12:26.433 But then she trusted and she actually had people on her team that said you can't trust them. 00:12:26.433 --> 00:12:29.330 She says if we can't trust them, who can we trust? 00:12:29.330 --> 00:12:31.486 You know, they're our partners. 00:12:31.486 --> 00:12:34.379 And so she led out with that extension of trust. 00:12:34.379 --> 00:12:40.312 She was trusting of her franchisees, of her partners, of all the people that she worked with. 00:12:40.312 --> 00:12:44.529 She went first in trusting others and then she inspired. 00:12:45.120 --> 00:12:46.085 How did she inspire? 00:12:46.085 --> 00:12:58.105 By connecting with people through a sense of caring, genuine caring, deep caring, and a sense of belonging that we belong to something we're part of. 00:12:58.105 --> 00:13:08.306 This Part of our identity is tied to this a real connection with people through a sense of caring and belonging, but also connected people to purpose, to meaning and to contribution. 00:13:08.306 --> 00:13:16.677 Long story made short, she began to really create a different experience, internally, with their own people. 00:13:17.219 --> 00:13:19.528 Externally, in the marketplace with customers and partners. 00:13:19.528 --> 00:13:26.008 They began to win in the workplace with their own people, which helped them win in the marketplace with customers and partners. 00:13:26.008 --> 00:13:32.265 And they began to unleash the greatness of their organization by first unleashing the greatness of her people. 00:13:32.265 --> 00:13:35.187 She modeled, she trusted, she inspired. 00:13:35.187 --> 00:13:38.659 Unleashing the greatness of her people, she modeled, she trusted, she inspired. 00:13:38.659 --> 00:13:44.644 And, among other things, they went from a 14% market share to 27%. 00:13:44.644 --> 00:13:48.312 They went from a stock price of $11 a share to $79. 00:13:48.312 --> 00:13:57.586 Again, these economic, these financial wins that I believe came about because they first unleashed the greatness of her people, of the culture that was inside of everyone. 00:13:57.586 --> 00:13:59.912 She modeled, she trusted, she inspired. 00:14:01.842 --> 00:14:17.982 In a very similar way, satya Nadella did the same thing at Microsoft unleashing the greatness of that organization by first unleashing the greatness of the people by modeling, by trusting, by inspiring, by implementing these three stewardships, by carrying them out. 00:14:17.982 --> 00:14:48.570 And it's really remarkable that this unleashes the potential, the talent, the greatness that's inside of people to have a leader that models, that trusts, that inspires, versus a leader that kind of waits on everybody else and that tries to command and control their way, you know, through position and the like, and waiting on everybody else and then just directing and requiring or enforcing and trying to just motivate only instead of inspire. 00:14:48.570 --> 00:14:55.833 You know, relying on reward systems only nothing wrong with reward systems, that's motivation. 00:14:55.833 --> 00:15:01.253 But we want to move to inspiration, where it's internal, intrinsic inside of people, to light that fire within. 00:15:01.253 --> 00:15:07.173 So, and I describe it, those are the three stewardships you model, you trust, you inspire. 00:15:10.321 --> 00:15:26.014 Well, just for our listeners, just so you know, I literally had a question about motivation versus inspiration and Stephen is like reading my mind, but I think, first of all, two great examples of leaders that have trusted and inspired. 00:15:26.014 --> 00:15:39.301 I tend to agree with you where these financial wins and the stock price wins and all these things, these headlines of these wonderful companies, that you know that that's a tail effect, right Like that's a, that's a ripple effect from from, uh, effective people practices. 00:15:39.301 --> 00:15:44.051 Uh, at least that's been my experience in my career, so I tend to agree with that. 00:15:44.051 --> 00:15:52.361 Um, I, I do want to, I want, I want to circle back to your comments on motivation versus inspiration and I in the context of human resources. 00:15:52.721 --> 00:16:09.193 So often we get caught into this trap of thinking about inspiring others to do things in the context of things like rewards systems or incentive systems and motivation systems. 00:16:09.193 --> 00:16:33.279 Uh, so often I think we miss the boat on the bigger picture, which is that that, yes, rewards and compensation and benefits and all these things are are important, but they're not the reason that people uh give extra discretionary efforts, not necessarily the reason that people will go above and beyond or or make wonderful things or have great innovation. 00:16:33.279 --> 00:16:41.604 So can you walk us through that, that difference, the nuance between motivating somebody to do something and actually inspiring somebody to do something? 00:16:42.206 --> 00:16:43.832 Yeah, fabulous, kyle. 00:16:43.832 --> 00:16:55.102 I'm glad that we're going deeper in this, because I think this distinction is really important and I think it's part of the whole rebel HR mindset of seeking the breakthrough. 00:16:55.102 --> 00:17:03.154 And the way to think about it is less good and bad and either or, but more and and then going beyond. 00:17:03.154 --> 00:17:13.147 So look at it this way Motivation is external, it's extrinsic, it's outside of us, and so we're trying to move people to do something. 00:17:13.147 --> 00:17:19.586 So it tends to be kind of reward systems and heavy carrot and stick. 00:17:19.586 --> 00:17:22.392 Motivation is the traditional command and control. 00:17:22.392 --> 00:17:23.640 So you want to. 00:17:23.640 --> 00:17:25.046 You know, does that work? 00:17:25.046 --> 00:17:26.191 Do reward systems work? 00:17:26.191 --> 00:17:35.126 Sure, they motivate people, they move people to want to get more rewards, but the only problem is that we have to keep well, two problems. 00:17:35.126 --> 00:17:44.275 First, we have to keep providing more external stimuli, more carrots, more sticks, to keep moving people, because we have to move them. 00:17:44.296 --> 00:17:59.528 Through this approach and what's inside of people to begin with, that goes beyond being moved to do it, but rather that people choose to do it. 00:17:59.528 --> 00:18:02.857 They feel compelled because it's in them. 00:18:02.857 --> 00:18:06.230 You're tapping into something greater, which is where inspiration will take you. 00:18:06.230 --> 00:18:16.577 So inspire, by contrast to being external, inspire and inspiration is internal, it's intrinsic, it's already inside of people. 00:18:16.577 --> 00:18:20.826 What we're trying to do is light the fire that's within. 00:18:20.826 --> 00:18:42.855 That fire, once lit, can burn on for months, if not years, without the need for constant new external stimuli, and it can take you to completely different places that motivation will never fully reach, where people feel inspired to bring forth their best effort, their best work, their best thinking and creativity. 00:18:42.855 --> 00:18:48.962 They choose to give it, they volunteer it, and the fire is lit. 00:18:48.962 --> 00:18:59.135 And you know the Latin phrase for inspire is inspirare, which means to breathe life into. 00:18:59.135 --> 00:19:10.412 So you say trust, and inspire breathes life into relationships, into teams, into cultures, whereas command and control often tends to suck the life out of. 00:19:10.412 --> 00:19:16.184 So I'm not against reward systems, we need that, we need motivation. 00:19:16.184 --> 00:19:17.780 I'm just saying it's incomplete. 00:19:17.780 --> 00:19:36.296 We can have that and then go beyond it into inspiration, where people are inspired by purpose and by meaning, by contribution and by a sense of identity and belonging and a real sense of caring which moves them to a whole new place altogether. 00:19:36.296 --> 00:19:41.088 And so it's not either, or it's, and it's a little bit. 00:19:41.569 --> 00:19:45.526 Maslow's hierarchy of needs and motivation can take you so far up the hierarchy. 00:19:45.526 --> 00:20:03.730 But really, what will move people not only into self-actualization, but even where Maslow later amended his hierarchy of needs and added self-transcendence, which is contribution purpose. 00:20:03.730 --> 00:20:08.622 That's where inspiration will take you, and I'll just cite one study. 00:20:08.622 --> 00:20:29.691 This is a study from Bain and company, the consultants, that shows that employees who are inspired are 125% more productive than merely satisfied employees and we might expect that because satisfaction is not the highest bar. 00:20:29.691 --> 00:20:35.320 So 125% more productive than merely satisfied employees, but listen to this. 00:20:35.320 --> 00:20:45.209 And they're even 56% more productive than fully engaged employees, which is where we've been focused on. 00:20:45.868 --> 00:20:58.665 And motivation can move you towards engagement, and I'm saying that the highest manifestation of engagement, the highest form of engagement, is to be inspired. 00:20:58.665 --> 00:21:20.502 So even something beyond that, where there's another level of productivity, another level of creativity and innovation and I'm going to come back to the value to the employee another level of wellbeing, another level of well-being of thriving. 00:21:20.502 --> 00:21:32.268 Microsoft is measuring thriving, you know, not just engagement, but the employee thriving to be inspired, and others are measuring you being inspired, and so that's the idea is, is, is not either or it's and, but it's, it's. 00:21:32.268 --> 00:21:38.538 It's a sense of, of, of completing, of what's possible inside of people. 00:21:38.538 --> 00:21:46.126 That includes motivation, but goes so much beyond, and that's what people today people, I like to say people don't want to be managed. 00:21:47.220 --> 00:21:50.611 People do want to be led and they want to be trusted. 00:21:50.611 --> 00:21:51.724 They want to be inspired. 00:21:51.724 --> 00:21:55.682 They want to have that life breathed into and they want to have their, their fire lit. 00:21:55.682 --> 00:22:02.944 That you candle can light another candle, but an unlit candle can't light another candle. 00:22:02.944 --> 00:22:06.913 So to inspire others we first need to become inspired ourselves. 00:22:06.913 --> 00:22:09.645 That's all part of the stewardship. 00:22:09.645 --> 00:22:10.807 We have to inspire others. 00:22:10.807 --> 00:22:19.007 Let's model the response first inspire others. 00:22:19.588 --> 00:22:20.532 Let's model this first. 00:22:20.532 --> 00:22:21.457 I love that. 00:22:21.457 --> 00:22:22.098 I love that HR be the candle. 00:22:28.359 --> 00:22:28.962 Don't be the snuffer, go first. 00:22:28.962 --> 00:22:29.484 Absolutely, I love it. 00:22:29.484 --> 00:22:37.769 Side note it's so funny you mentioned Maslow's hierarchy of needs because literally a couple of weeks ago we just debunked the myth that there's five, there's actually eight, and like we had a whole paradigm shift on the Maslow's hierarchy. 00:22:37.769 --> 00:22:46.162 And so now all of us HR professionals we're questioning who we are at the core of ourselves, because now this chart's different than we thought. 00:22:46.162 --> 00:23:01.749 But I think you know there's so much, you know amazing content in there and I think it's really important for us to remember that this is an and equation right, and it is so much about trust. 00:23:01.749 --> 00:23:33.905 To circle back with where we started this conversation, it's funny that we're talking about the changing workplace and the different generations and a little bit of a shift in workplace and workspace, but the reality is, all of these principles matter as much, if not more, in the new world of work, and I think so much and there's so much kind know, kind of noise and headlines around. 00:23:33.925 --> 00:23:37.109 Well, how do we, how do we manage this new world of work? 00:23:37.109 --> 00:24:08.726 Uh, what it sounds like to me is this is how we manage it right and, as opposed to thinking about it as managing it's, it's about how we lead and how we, how we get other people to to be inspired, as opposed to trying to force them to do something, um and so so I'm curious, because I guarantee you that there's people listening to this podcast that are like, you know, this sounds great and, yeah, we understand that trust is important, but you know we're giving up a lot of power by leading like this. 00:24:08.726 --> 00:24:28.170 So what do you say to people who are, who are worried about this, like this shift, or shift away from, like having this control into what what some might say is a little bit more, more open-ended, or or you know, the uh, the comment that you made earlier was, well, we can't trust them, right? 00:24:28.170 --> 00:24:29.292 Um, so so how do we? 00:24:29.292 --> 00:24:30.865 How do we shift our thinking and what? 00:24:30.865 --> 00:24:34.863 What's your response to people who are maybe kind of thinking that or have that as a response? 00:24:35.063 --> 00:24:35.564 Well similar. 00:24:35.564 --> 00:24:39.148 Like we were talking about motivation and inspiration and the and approach. 00:24:39.148 --> 00:24:44.415 You know the third alternative that great inspiration will include motivation as well as a base. 00:24:44.415 --> 00:24:57.076 See the same thing for this kind of leadership that in a sense, in a sense, the opposite of command and control is not trust and inspire, I just put it this way. 00:24:57.076 --> 00:25:03.351 The opposite of command and control I would call abdicate and abandon. 00:25:03.351 --> 00:25:10.891 You know, where there's no leadership there, no expectations, no accountability, no direction, no vision, where? 00:25:10.891 --> 00:25:31.208 So if command and control is excessively hands-on you you know, excessively hands-on, so I'm micromanaging abdicate and abandon is excessively hands-off no leadership, no expectations, no accountability, and that's not going to work, no more than excessive micromanagement is going to work very well in a new world. 00:25:31.208 --> 00:25:34.634 So trust and inspire is really a third alternative. 00:25:34.634 --> 00:25:45.662 It's hand in hand, we're doing this with each other and we're building the agreement together around the results that we're seeking. 00:25:45.662 --> 00:25:55.026 So I'm going to argue there's actually more control in a trust and inspire culture than there is even in a command and control culture. 00:25:55.026 --> 00:26:09.241 Because in a trust and inspire culture than there is even in a command and control culture, because in a command and control culture the control comes through the micromanagement, the hovering over and through rules. 00:26:09.241 --> 00:26:18.005 In a trust and inspire culture, the control comes through the culture itself and through the relationship and through the agreement that you build together with expectations and with accountability. 00:26:18.005 --> 00:26:24.146 So you build the agreement around the trust that you're extending and giving and then the agreement governs. 00:26:24.146 --> 00:26:33.503 You don't have to hover over and micromanage people, but you haven't lost control because you built an agreement and people report on how they're doing against the agreement you built together. 00:26:33.503 --> 00:26:36.148 But you don't dictate the agreement to the MC. 00:26:36.148 --> 00:26:44.813 A command and control leader will just dictate the agreement, say here's how we'll judge you and here's how I'll see how you're doing, and they dictate it. 00:26:44.813 --> 00:26:55.169 A trust and inspire leader builds it with them and there's far more buy-in to it because there's more involvement, there's more commitment to it, there's more buy-in to achieve it better. 00:26:55.169 --> 00:27:03.288 And I'm going to argue there's more control in this agreement that you've built together and people evaluate themselves against the agreement. 00:27:03.288 --> 00:27:05.141 They report back to you on how they're doing. 00:27:05.141 --> 00:27:08.990 It looks and feels different and yet there's more control in it. 00:27:08.990 --> 00:27:11.202 So I see it as a third alternative. 00:27:11.202 --> 00:27:20.407 And to those that argue that this seems soft and weak, I'm saying you're describing abdicate and abandon, not trust and inspire. 00:27:20.407 --> 00:27:22.311 This is a third alternative. 00:27:22.311 --> 00:27:39.695 As a trust and inspire leader, you can be author, visionary, without being exclusive. 00:27:39.695 --> 00:27:48.923 You can be even detail-oriented without being trusting, and you can be in charge and have control without being controlling. 00:27:48.923 --> 00:27:53.363 But you do it through the agreement that you build together and it's really powerful. 00:27:53.363 --> 00:28:01.031 And so that's my response to the kind of the cynic that's saying this sounds nice but it sounds soft and weak. 00:28:01.031 --> 00:28:05.852 I'm saying no, this is actually the strongest form of leadership we can lead with today. 00:28:06.640 --> 00:28:13.765 Maybe one last idea, framing on this third alternative idea and you mentioned it, you know about management and leadership. 00:28:13.765 --> 00:28:16.564 Again, it's not management is bad, leadership is good. 00:28:16.564 --> 00:28:19.074 They're both good, they're both vital. 00:28:19.074 --> 00:28:22.123 We need good management, just like we need good leadership. 00:28:22.123 --> 00:28:23.625 The key is the context. 00:28:23.625 --> 00:28:36.390 We manage things, we lead people, and we need great management of things, of systems, of structures, of processes, of tools, of inventories, of the numbers of the business. 00:28:36.390 --> 00:28:39.339 We manage things but we lead people. 00:28:39.339 --> 00:28:53.863 But sometimes we've gotten so good at managing things that we start to manage people as if they were things, and if we keep doing that in this new world, we might end up with no people in a lot of things, because they have choices. 00:28:53.903 --> 00:28:54.664 They have options. 00:28:54.664 --> 00:28:55.556 They can go elsewhere. 00:28:55.556 --> 00:28:56.498 It's not either. 00:28:56.498 --> 00:28:59.484 Or it's in Manage, things lead people. 00:28:59.484 --> 00:29:01.435 Let's get really good at this. 00:29:01.435 --> 00:29:07.946 And Trust Inspire equips us with both mindsets for the different contexts that we bring to it. 00:29:07.946 --> 00:29:10.856 So I think this is actually strong leadership. 00:29:10.856 --> 00:29:13.647 It has control built in, a different kind of control. 00:29:13.647 --> 00:29:23.180 It's not hovering over micromanagement, but it's rather control through the agreement we built together, through the context of the culture and the relationship that we've established. 00:29:24.663 --> 00:29:46.548 That makes sense, absolutely, yeah, absolutely, and I I think it's you know the um, what, what's what's really interesting about this, this approach is you know, a lot of times I think the perception of command and control is, you know, it's all about always understanding what's happening and and and tracking and you know, ver and verifying and micromanaging. 00:29:46.615 --> 00:29:53.994 I think it would be a common definition there, and a lot of times we can trick ourselves into thinking we actually know what's happening or we know what people are doing. 00:29:54.615 --> 00:30:11.108 But the reality is, at least in my experience, a lot of times, when there's an absence of trust in that style of management, you actually don't know what's going on, because people are afraid to tell you and so that you know they're, they're, maybe they're modifying the system so that it looks like something's happened. 00:30:11.108 --> 00:30:36.163 But I, a lot of times you're surprised and it actually it's a lack of control that actually exists in a system, because, because you don't have that level of trust and and and you don't, you know, you don't have the inspiration for people to be inspired enough to say, hey, if we make this decision, this is what's going to happen to the customer sentiment down the road, because this is what you know, like you just, you won't have that dialogue, you'll have more poor results, right? 00:30:36.163 --> 00:30:39.701 So I think to that point a little bit of a light bulb moment. 00:30:39.701 --> 00:30:39.921 For me. 00:30:39.921 --> 00:30:42.184 It was like well, command and control you don't. 00:30:42.184 --> 00:30:43.866 You might even know what you're trying to control. 00:30:43.866 --> 00:30:46.576 You might not even have the right information. 00:30:46.917 --> 00:30:47.599 That's terrific. 00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:48.762 That's really insightful. 00:30:48.762 --> 00:30:58.398 Kyle, I agree completely that even the control that you have is not as robust as you thought it was, because it's not genuine, it's not dealing with the real issues. 00:30:58.398 --> 00:31:16.623 You're only getting what people are willing to say, what they dare to say and willing to speak up about, but not everything else that's truly happening, because there's fear and they're not going to say it, and so there's a whole lot of things that you don't even know about the organization or the culture and it's not being volunteered. 00:31:16.623 --> 00:31:20.297 So your control is a false sense of control. 00:31:20.297 --> 00:31:27.145 It's really not as robust in any sense and as real as this other. 00:31:27.295 --> 00:31:29.462 Yeah, I think anybody listening to this podcast. 00:31:29.462 --> 00:31:32.355 First of all, I don't think that there's anybody listening to this podcast. 00:31:32.355 --> 00:31:34.060 That's like arguing against this. 00:31:34.060 --> 00:31:39.696 It's more like I think that context is important for the people that are going to push back on HR professionals, that are pushing for this. 00:31:39.696 --> 00:32:02.335 That's right Most commonly, but I think every HR professional right now is just kind of smirking themselves and going, yep, I've seen that so many times where we all think that we know what's happening, especially in the boardroom or in a conference room or in a meeting, and then we go out and we talk to that one person, one person out there on the floor that knows exactly what's going on, and they tell us the truth. 00:32:02.335 --> 00:32:13.866 And a lot of times HR is the middle person between that, where we're trying to convey the reality of what's happening to leadership and we've got a front row seat to the ineffectiveness of this style at times. 00:32:14.047 --> 00:32:18.101 Yeah, and I do think that HR can be the catalyst to help shift the paradigm. 00:32:18.101 --> 00:32:24.050 I agree To help bring this about, to give people a new vision of where we can go, can be the catalyst to help shift the paradigm. 00:32:24.050 --> 00:32:30.688 I agree To help bring this about, to give people a new vision of where we can go and why we need to go there and why this is a better way to lead. 00:32:30.688 --> 00:32:45.500 And they can speak, when we speak the language, of what the line leaders are wanting, the business leaders are wanting, so that we're relevant to them but paint the vision of what's possible in their language. 00:32:45.500 --> 00:32:52.343 That's where we really make a connection and show that we understand the business and we know how to lead the business to that point. 00:32:52.343 --> 00:32:55.721 And I think HR can lead this like no one else. 00:32:55.721 --> 00:33:14.099 For all those reasons and I do agree that this probably resonates with the HR professional that says I know I've been trying to say this and I'm trying to give the language of how we can connect it to the very things that the line leaders want, which I know is what the HR team is wanting to do as well, and so it's really a powerful connection. 00:33:14.099 --> 00:33:24.489 But here's the thing, for all our progress that we've made in the HR community, in the leadership community, towards kind of. 00:33:25.275 --> 00:33:26.779 Someone might hear this and say this is really not. 00:33:26.779 --> 00:33:28.365 Is this really a new way to lead? 00:33:28.365 --> 00:33:31.580 Haven't we been talking about this for the last decade plus? 00:33:31.580 --> 00:33:46.131 Well, we have, but we're still not doing it, and the data shows that still, about nine out of 10 organizations are still trapped in some form of the command and control model. 00:33:46.131 --> 00:33:58.028 It may not be the authoritarian approach, it might be the more enlightened version of it, but still the majority, the vast majority, are still trapped in command and control. 00:33:58.028 --> 00:34:04.138 And I argue this to know and not to do is not to know. 00:34:04.138 --> 00:34:06.160 So we're still not. 00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:17.768 The fact that we're not doing it means that we still haven't made the leap, broken through, shifted the paradigm, and we've got to do that, and I think HR can be a catalyst to lead us towards that. 00:34:18.548 --> 00:34:41.956 To lead us towards that Absolutely, and I think you know to that point and I've always said this you know HR is in a unique point, in a position where we have a lot of we have a lot of power, whether we realize it or not, and one of those areas where we have the ability to really shape an organization is the learning and development journey that we take our leaders through. 00:34:41.956 --> 00:35:06.382 And so one thing I did want to talk about maybe going back to the speed of trust is I know that there's been a focus on updating some of the content to be more reflective of the shifting world of work and that you've got some new courses available specifically to help HR professionals on their learning and development related to trust and a couple of new workshops. 00:35:06.382 --> 00:35:12.615 Can you tell us a little bit about the workshops the leading at the speed of trust and working at the speed of trust workshops that you've been working on? 00:35:13.237 --> 00:35:13.739 Absolutely. 00:35:13.840 --> 00:35:22.346 Yeah, this is all about helping leaders and teams and organizations build high trust teams, high trust cultures, getting good at this. 00:35:22.346 --> 00:35:28.585 And we've had these workshops really for a decade plus 15 years plus. 00:35:28.585 --> 00:35:30.509 That have been superb. 00:35:30.509 --> 00:35:33.443 We just have a new, refreshed, updated version of it. 00:35:33.443 --> 00:35:41.802 So those that have used the Speed of Trust stuff, it's just a refreshed, re-imagined, updated version for our time. 00:35:42.664 --> 00:36:00.161 And what I would highlight is that we've also got now we're showing how trust is built through our credibility and our behavior, which is kind of the essence of the speed of trust, of helping people do it intentionally, on purpose, and giving them a framework and a language and a process of how to do it. 00:36:00.161 --> 00:36:14.005 And now we've gone to going to another level of saying not only can we do this as leaders and as individuals, but we can do it as a team and as an organization and build a high-trust culture and build a high-trust team. 00:36:14.005 --> 00:36:26.971 So we've got a whole new module on building high-trust teams through credibility and behavior and high-trust relationships with customers and partners through credibility and behavior and high trust relationship with customers and partners through credibility and behavior. 00:36:26.971 --> 00:36:28.074 It's just so practical, so tangible, so actionable. 00:36:28.074 --> 00:36:34.297 So I think that those that are familiar with this already will love it because it takes it to a whole nother level. 00:36:34.998 --> 00:36:42.869 And those that aren't familiar with it, this will be kind of a natural next step to say, okay, how do we if, if, if, if? 00:36:42.869 --> 00:36:46.521 Building a high trust, team and culture is so important, how do we do it? 00:36:46.521 --> 00:36:48.347 How do I lead that from HR? 00:36:48.347 --> 00:36:51.056 And this will help you do precisely that. 00:36:51.056 --> 00:37:22.657 It gives you the, the language, the framework, the process of becoming, you know, intentionally good at building trust on purpose in our teams and organizations, and so we're excited, delighted about what we've done to make this so fresh, so relevant in our world today, which it really is, and it really kind of is fitting this language of trust and inspire, of really being where you know, meeting people, where we're at and where society is at and people are at today, to keep this fresh and relevant for others. 00:37:24.179 --> 00:37:27.664 Absolutely and, and you know maybe a maybe a comment on that. 00:37:27.664 --> 00:37:38.297 You know I've I've used speed of trust, and, and and those types of tools for for many years as a, as a practicing HR professional. 00:37:38.297 --> 00:37:39.940 I I I try to give it to any leader that's going through some development with me. 00:37:39.940 --> 00:37:44.378 One of the I think the one of the really powerful things about that book is it gives you a structure to talk about trust. 00:37:44.378 --> 00:37:47.086 It's not this nebulous concept. 00:37:47.086 --> 00:38:10.806 It actually gets down to building out some language around it and some protocols to think about, and once you start to use that within your organization and with your leaders, it's pretty amazing to see that start to become pervasive throughout the day-to-day conversations and culture, and it really can help reshape your workplace. 00:38:10.806 --> 00:38:13.443 So I would strongly encourage anybody to check that out. 00:38:13.554 --> 00:38:20.235 I think I can guarantee you I haven't got to the new workshops yet, but I can guarantee you that it's going to be well worth your time. 00:38:20.235 --> 00:38:22.385 So, with that being said, you are an extremely be well with you with your time. 00:38:22.385 --> 00:38:26.740 So, with that being said, you are an extremely busy man and sincerely appreciate your time. 00:38:26.740 --> 00:38:30.818 We are quickly coming to the close of our available time together. 00:38:30.818 --> 00:38:34.427 I'm fascinated to hear your responses to the rebel HR flash round. 00:38:34.427 --> 00:38:34.875 Are you ready? 00:38:35.836 --> 00:38:38.139 I'm ready, yeah all right, here we go. 00:38:38.139 --> 00:38:41.342 Question number one where does hr need to rebel? 00:38:43.626 --> 00:38:51.987 hr needs to rebel against command and control and say there's a better way to lead, and it's trust and inspire. 00:38:51.987 --> 00:38:56.436 And I know they rebel already in the paradigm. 00:38:56.436 --> 00:39:23.527 Now I think we need to shift beyond the paradigm, into the language, into the systems, into the structures and the practices, so that we're saying we must make this shift, because I believe that command and control is the equivalent of modern day bloodletting, if you think about it. 00:39:23.527 --> 00:39:29.331 Bloodletting went on for 3000 years, started with the Egyptians, went to the Romans, but it persisted. 00:39:29.331 --> 00:39:35.047 And even when it was disproven that it doesn't work the disease was not in the blood. 00:39:35.047 --> 00:39:41.884 That was in the 15 and 1600s it still persisted for another 250 years. 00:39:41.884 --> 00:39:45.030 It was still practiced because old paradigms die hard. 00:39:45.030 --> 00:39:57.601 And so, while the HR I think community gets it that we need to make this shift, I think the practice of command and control leadership is still the common practice and that is modern day bloodletting. 00:39:57.655 --> 00:40:10.416 We need to rebel against modern day bloodletting and say no, we've got to lead in a new way and it's in our language. 00:40:10.416 --> 00:40:13.206 Even you know the idea of of top down and hierarchies and the front line and and rank and file. 00:40:13.206 --> 00:40:14.269 It's just in our language. 00:40:14.269 --> 00:40:16.036 We got to choose different language. 00:40:16.036 --> 00:40:31.005 In our systems we have, you know, we look at high potentials what does that say about everybody else and how you've seen others and we look at the structures and the processes and there's just a lot of rebelling. 00:40:31.045 --> 00:40:45.208 We need to do and say no, it's not span of control, it's span of care, as Bob Chapman says and others, and we're going to rebel in our language, in our systems, in our structures, in our processes, in our tools, and we're going to become trust and inspire. 00:40:45.208 --> 00:40:47.541 And so that's it. 00:40:47.541 --> 00:40:59.054 We got to rebel against command and control, not just in the paradigm, which I think is where it starts, but in the systems and the structures and the processes and the tools and in the very language that we're using. 00:40:59.054 --> 00:41:06.942 And I think we can rebel and be the catalyst to change the way that we practice this in all its respect. 00:41:06.942 --> 00:41:08.806 We can get rid of bloodletting. 00:41:10.856 --> 00:41:12.663 And we can do it faster than 250 years. 00:41:13.155 --> 00:41:14.961 We can do it faster, we can do it so much faster. 00:41:15.614 --> 00:41:16.376 Couldn't agree more. 00:41:16.376 --> 00:41:18.061 Very well said. 00:41:18.061 --> 00:41:20.646 Question number two who should we be listening to? 00:41:20.646 --> 00:41:21.516 Question number two who should we be? 00:41:21.577 --> 00:41:28.869 listening to Thinkers, leaders, practitioners that are saying this very thing that we need a paradigm shift. 00:41:28.869 --> 00:41:36.478 We need a sea change, a dramatic shift, not an incremental shift. 00:41:36.478 --> 00:41:48.420 And because incrementalism won't get us to where we need to be, it won't build a high-trust culture that inspires, and it won't help us collaborate and innovate in a changing, shifting, disruptive world, it won't do it fast enough. 00:41:48.420 --> 00:41:53.583 And you know we don't have the 250 years, we don't have two and a half years. 00:41:53.583 --> 00:41:54.639 We got to move faster. 00:41:54.639 --> 00:42:05.101 And so for leaders and thinkers I'm just thinking of Francis Fry and Ann Morris, harvard Business School. 00:42:05.121 --> 00:42:14.175 Francis Fry, who wrote Unleashed and this new book, move Fast and Fix Things, you know, that are just saying we've got to move fast and fix things. 00:42:14.175 --> 00:42:18.827 We've got a new paradigm, unleashing everyone and the potential, the greatness. 00:42:18.827 --> 00:42:30.021 Potential, the greatness, you know, thinking of Aaron Meyer and Reed Hastings and the no rules rule that they've employed at Netflix. 00:42:30.021 --> 00:42:45.969 That includes getting rid of controls as you increase the trust and the straight talk and all the things that are happening to try to unleash the controls that are in place, that are traditional, and we've got to get rid of them in a way that really is working. 00:42:45.969 --> 00:43:02.742 And so thinkers like this Doug Conant, great practitioner, thinker, who wrote the Blueprint, and others that are thinking about whole new ways of leading, so big paradigm shifters that are not. 00:43:02.742 --> 00:43:09.264 They're not into incremental shifts and change, but into sea changes and dramatic changes. 00:43:09.264 --> 00:43:14.639 And I'm trying to say this the the big shift is to move from command and control to trust, inspire. 00:43:14.639 --> 00:43:15.844 That's. 00:43:15.844 --> 00:43:18.735 That's the type of thing that we need love it, love it. 00:43:19.135 --> 00:43:22.706 the world's not changing incrementally, it's changing exponentially. 00:43:27.155 --> 00:43:29.420 The world is changing exponentially and our style of leadership needs to change exponentially with it. 00:43:29.460 --> 00:43:30.503 You need to get ahead of it Absolutely. 00:43:30.503 --> 00:43:35.483 Last question how can our listeners reach out, connect with you and get their hands on the book and the workshops? 00:43:36.275 --> 00:43:36.675 Wonderful. 00:43:36.675 --> 00:43:42.869 We'll go to trustandinspirecom, which is a website, and there you can get the book. 00:43:42.869 --> 00:43:49.422 You can get other resources, tools, ideas, thinking around this, and I'd love you to connect with me. 00:43:49.422 --> 00:43:51.740 I'm on LinkedIn. 00:43:51.740 --> 00:44:05.585 You can follow me on LinkedIn, Also on X the old Twitter, and on Instagram at StephenMRCovey, and so follow me. 00:44:05.585 --> 00:44:13.692 Go to TrustAndInspirecom, connect with me and love to be able to help in any way that I can, that we can, our team. 00:44:26.295 --> 00:44:28.001 This is exciting work and I would just say this to you in HR, you can go first. 00:44:28.001 --> 00:44:28.543 Someone needs to go first. 00:44:28.543 --> 00:44:29.869 Leaders go first and as an HR professional, you can go first. 00:44:29.869 --> 00:44:30.311 I'm right now working. 00:44:30.311 --> 00:44:32.963 I'll give you two cases of the HR team going first, the HR leader going first. 00:44:32.963 --> 00:44:41.088 One where we're dealing with an organization that is going through all kinds of change but they're trapped in a command and control style of leadership. 00:44:41.088 --> 00:44:43.181 They almost don't see it. 00:44:43.181 --> 00:44:46.043 They're like fish that discover water last. 00:44:46.043 --> 00:44:50.766 They're so immersed in it they're not even aware that it's in how they're leading. 00:44:50.766 --> 00:44:53.903 But the HR team is the team that's putting up the mirror. 00:44:53.903 --> 00:45:00.996 But they are modeling by first applying this within their own team and they're going first and they're helping. 00:45:00.996 --> 00:45:04.967 Then the rest of the organization see that, that they can do this. 00:45:04.967 --> 00:45:10.501 But they're seeing a model by in the HR team by showing them there's a better way to lead and look how we're doing it. 00:45:10.501 --> 00:45:17.567 That is pretty remarkable and they're helping, and they're and they're helping the rest of the team see how they can do it too. 00:45:17.567 --> 00:45:19.577 And and and then. 00:45:19.617 --> 00:45:32.659 A second example of when I actually highlight in the Trust Inspire book, of how a huge paradigm shift happened where the CEO got behind all the changes that needed to be made and everyone says we need a CEO like that. 00:45:34.083 --> 00:45:36.755 And what I point out is that it didn't start with the CEO. 00:45:36.755 --> 00:45:38.760 It started with the leader of HR. 00:45:38.760 --> 00:46:05.498 They began to implement these changes within her organization, her team, and, as they did it there, they then began to work within the partner organizations that they served with as partners and they began to see the business leader would work with the HR partner and began to see a better way of working together, began to model, it began to bring it in there and one by one, almost business unit by business unit, it got brought to the CEO of a better way to lead. 00:46:05.498 --> 00:46:09.777 And finally the CEO said gosh, I'm talking to several of you, my direct reports. 00:46:09.777 --> 00:46:18.206 You're doing this in a different way and don't we need this for the whole organization and bought into it organization wide and you love that. 00:46:18.226 --> 00:46:21.016 And I've had people say, gosh, we need a CEO like that. 00:46:21.016 --> 00:46:24.297 And I say yes, but it didn't start with the CEO. 00:46:24.297 --> 00:46:36.282 It started with Janita, within her circle of influence, bringing about this change within the HR team and it rippled out and then up and then down throughout the entire organization. 00:46:36.282 --> 00:46:40.043 That's what we need and you and HR can go first. 00:46:41.583 --> 00:46:42.005 I love it. 00:46:42.005 --> 00:46:44.905 I love it, Steven. 00:46:44.905 --> 00:46:48.007 It's been absolutely amazing to have you on the podcast. 00:46:48.007 --> 00:46:49.907 Thank you again so much for joining us. 00:46:49.907 --> 00:46:54.329 Thank you for all of the wonderful content and I can't wait to see what you come up with next. 00:46:54.329 --> 00:46:56.590 We will have all those links in the show notes. 00:46:56.590 --> 00:46:58.351 Please open up the podcast player. 00:46:58.351 --> 00:46:59.652 Check it out. 00:46:59.652 --> 00:47:01.291 You will not be disappointed. 00:47:01.291 --> 00:47:04.034 Steven M R Covey, everybody Thank you. 00:47:09.036 --> 00:47:09.476 Thank you, kyle. 00:47:09.476 --> 00:47:12.121 Let me just say this it's an honor to be with you, I appreciate you. 00:47:12.121 --> 00:47:20.543 I feel like I'm talking to a kindred spirit, I agree and really a co-catalyst to help unleash the greatness of our organizations by first unleashing the greatness of our people. 00:47:20.543 --> 00:47:36.648 And that's the whole idea and I love the whole premise of Rebel Human Resources podcast, rebel HR, and that's the kind of sea change that we need is taking this on, and this is an extraordinary place to rebel against leadership style. 00:47:36.648 --> 00:47:41.224 And so let's rebel and let's go from command and control to trust and inspire. 00:47:41.224 --> 00:47:45.884 And thank you for being a catalyst, a co-catalyst with me to help bring this about. 00:47:47.650 --> 00:47:50.179 I'm going to just I'm just going to leave it right there, steven. 00:47:50.179 --> 00:47:51.083 Thank you so much. 00:47:51.083 --> 00:47:52.548 The honor is all mine. 00:47:52.548 --> 00:47:56.221 Thank you for everything over the years and for the continued inspiration. 00:47:56.221 --> 00:47:57.565 Thank you, you're welcome. 00:47:57.565 --> 00:47:58.327 Thank you, my friend. 00:47:58.327 --> 00:48:03.786 All right, that does it for the Rebel HR podcast. 00:48:03.786 --> 00:48:05.771 Big thank you to our guests. 00:48:05.771 --> 00:48:14.528 Follow us on Facebook at Rebel HR podcast, twitter at Rebel HR guy, or see our website at rebelhumanresourcescom. 00:48:14.528 --> 00:48:24.748 The views and opinions expressed by Rebel HR podcast are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we represent. 00:48:24.748 --> 00:48:28.278 No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast. 00:48:30.260 --> 00:48:30.581 Baby.