1 00:00:03,024 --> 00:00:06,049 Speaker 1: This is the Rebel HR podcast, the podcast about all 2 00:00:06,149 --> 00:00:08,151 things innovation in the people's space. 3 00:00:08,151 --> 00:00:09,614 I'm Kyle Rode. 4 00:00:09,614 --> 00:00:10,595 Let's start the show. 5 00:00:10,595 --> 00:00:17,303 Welcome back Rebel HR community With us. 6 00:00:17,303 --> 00:00:19,025 Today we have an amazing guest. 7 00:00:19,025 --> 00:00:22,289 So excited to jump into the content, we have Dr Jana Koretz. 8 00:00:22,289 --> 00:00:27,222 She is a clinical psychologist and founder of a firm in Boston 9 00:00:27,301 --> 00:00:31,710 who helps support people who are in high pressure careers, and 10 00:00:32,170 --> 00:00:34,642 certainly that includes many HR professionals. 11 00:00:34,642 --> 00:00:36,787 So, jana, thank you so much for joining us today. 12 00:00:37,509 --> 00:00:39,220 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for having me, I'm excited. 13 00:00:40,481 --> 00:00:41,804 Speaker 1: Really excited as well. 14 00:00:41,804 --> 00:00:46,170 This is one of those situations where, before I hit record, we 15 00:00:46,189 --> 00:00:50,354 had a wonderful 10 to 15-minute conversation and I went oh shoot 16 00:00:50,354 --> 00:00:51,917 , I should have been recording. 17 00:00:51,917 --> 00:00:53,738 We're going to rehash maybe a little bit. 18 00:00:53,738 --> 00:00:54,200 I apologize. 19 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:58,426 I want to start off with a question that I'm always curious 20 00:00:58,426 --> 00:01:04,676 when I talk to a founder or an entrepreneur what motivated you 21 00:01:05,075 --> 00:01:07,981 to found a firm that focuses on supporting individuals in 22 00:01:08,022 --> 00:01:08,823 high-pressure careers? 23 00:01:10,849 --> 00:01:12,906 Speaker 2: Sure, Well, I guess there's sort of two parts to it. 24 00:01:12,906 --> 00:01:16,109 First, when I came out of my postdoc, I got a job. 25 00:01:16,109 --> 00:01:18,867 At the time there were a lot of different smaller group 26 00:01:18,906 --> 00:01:24,406 practices in Boston, which is where we are, and so I had known 27 00:01:24,406 --> 00:01:26,001 people working on a lot of different ones. 28 00:01:26,263 --> 00:01:29,632 I had interviewed at some and that was going to be my first 29 00:01:29,673 --> 00:01:34,266 job and the more I found out about all these different places 30 00:01:34,266 --> 00:01:38,740 , the less I wanted to work there, because it felt very much 31 00:01:38,740 --> 00:01:42,990 like a, like you were just sort of a cog in a machine, which I 32 00:01:43,010 --> 00:01:45,727 found interesting from, you know , therapy practice perspective, 33 00:01:46,421 --> 00:01:48,388 but you know it's where people would go. 34 00:01:48,599 --> 00:01:52,661 They would just crush you with a caseload that was so high there 35 00:01:52,661 --> 00:01:56,329 was no space to do any kind of supervision or you know 36 00:01:56,370 --> 00:02:00,664 thoughtful development, and like you were just locked in this 37 00:02:00,743 --> 00:02:02,828 office all day, even though there were people around you. 38 00:02:02,828 --> 00:02:05,727 You see, your people, they were really careful with your 39 00:02:05,746 --> 00:02:09,342 productivity and you left and then, the longer you were there, 40 00:02:09,342 --> 00:02:11,268 there weren't opportunities for leadership, there weren't 41 00:02:11,328 --> 00:02:15,046 opportunities for making more money over time, like there was 42 00:02:15,127 --> 00:02:17,700 no opportunity for innovation or doing things differently. 43 00:02:17,700 --> 00:02:19,847 It was just like this is the way it's done, this is what 44 00:02:19,866 --> 00:02:22,883 we're doing, and some of them, even at the time, were doing a 45 00:02:22,943 --> 00:02:26,080 lot of things that were, in my opinion, quite sketchy in 46 00:02:26,121 --> 00:02:28,786 regards to, like, insurance and insurance billing. 47 00:02:30,748 --> 00:02:35,685 So basically figured, well, if it doesn't exist, maybe we 48 00:02:35,705 --> 00:02:36,247 should make it. 49 00:02:37,191 --> 00:02:40,581 And so once, that's how that began, that's how I started 50 00:02:40,641 --> 00:02:45,956 Asbeth with the idea of of, from a clinician perspective, making 51 00:02:45,956 --> 00:02:48,930 it an enjoyable place to work, making it a place where people 52 00:02:48,949 --> 00:02:51,562 like to stay, making it a place where people were able to do, 53 00:02:51,984 --> 00:02:54,694 more specifically, the kinds of work they want to do more, you 54 00:02:54,715 --> 00:02:57,144 know, a place where people weren't overworked so they could 55 00:02:57,144 --> 00:03:00,102 actually pay attention to the clients that they have, and so 56 00:03:00,162 --> 00:03:00,423 forth. 57 00:03:00,603 --> 00:03:02,186 And so that's how azimuth began. 58 00:03:02,186 --> 00:03:07,180 And then, probably a couple of years into our existence, you 59 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:10,693 know, in Boston there are a lot of people in high pressure 60 00:03:10,713 --> 00:03:13,362 careers, and what we were noticing is that was pretty much 61 00:03:13,362 --> 00:03:16,631 a lot of the reason why people were coming in the first place, 62 00:03:17,171 --> 00:03:19,986 and that was a lot of work we were doing was about, kind of 63 00:03:20,348 --> 00:03:24,383 the nuances of those different professions, and at some point I 64 00:03:24,383 --> 00:03:27,562 just figured we should really, this is what we're doing, this 65 00:03:27,663 --> 00:03:29,528 is what we love, this is who's coming. 66 00:03:29,528 --> 00:03:32,563 Like, we should just do this, this should just be let's focus 67 00:03:32,604 --> 00:03:33,105 in on this. 68 00:03:33,105 --> 00:03:36,622 And so a group of people that don't often get identified as 69 00:03:37,182 --> 00:03:39,026 needing services, which I think is interesting. 70 00:03:39,026 --> 00:03:42,881 And so it was a way in which also to bring people into 71 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:46,907 therapy who might not identify with more medical model of you 72 00:03:46,926 --> 00:03:50,070 know, I definitely have this issue and I need this kind of 73 00:03:50,110 --> 00:03:51,193 therapy to help me. 74 00:03:51,774 --> 00:03:54,021 You know, because anyone can use therapy, you don't need a 75 00:03:54,525 --> 00:03:57,764 diagnosis, you don't need any of those things, but the model is 76 00:03:57,783 --> 00:04:02,031 so medical, which is a whole different story that I think a 77 00:04:02,070 --> 00:04:04,735 lot of people, you know that's part of the stigma and also part 78 00:04:04,735 --> 00:04:08,147 of why people like hesitate, because they don't realize that, 79 00:04:08,147 --> 00:04:11,502 how useful it can be, no matter what, and so this was also a 80 00:04:11,543 --> 00:04:13,890 way to allow people to understand that and to come in 81 00:04:13,950 --> 00:04:17,071 in a way that felt more comfortable to them and more in 82 00:04:17,151 --> 00:04:19,019 line with actually what was going on for them. 83 00:04:19,060 --> 00:04:21,764 But that was often and is often right about a lot of different 84 00:04:21,783 --> 00:04:25,228 things, which is much more, I would say, on the clinical side, 85 00:04:25,228 --> 00:04:28,572 about, like communication or relationship issues, anxiety, 86 00:04:28,814 --> 00:04:35,569 mood disorders, burnout, like there's all this stuff going on 87 00:04:35,608 --> 00:04:37,658 in the bottom because people are really complicated trauma. 88 00:04:37,658 --> 00:04:41,901 And so then you know you're kind of working on both levels. 89 00:04:41,901 --> 00:04:43,144 So we know you know what it takes to make partner at a firm. 90 00:04:43,144 --> 00:04:44,887 We know you know, like we understand, that working less is 91 00:04:44,887 --> 00:04:46,129 not really a choice for you right now. 92 00:04:46,428 --> 00:04:48,632 So let's work within that Creative around solutions 93 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:57,093 because a lot, you know a lot of the advice that people get or 94 00:04:57,153 --> 00:05:00,446 have been working on in therapists prior are things that 95 00:05:00,446 --> 00:05:01,288 people know about. 96 00:05:01,288 --> 00:05:04,040 Like, I know I'm supposed to sleep more, but that is not 97 00:05:04,139 --> 00:05:06,629 something that I am able to do at this time in my life. 98 00:05:06,629 --> 00:05:10,505 So, with that in consideration, what are the other more clever 99 00:05:10,766 --> 00:05:14,451 and smaller and more innovative things that I can do to help 100 00:05:14,492 --> 00:05:18,283 myself within the context of this work environment, and what 101 00:05:18,423 --> 00:05:20,870 other things underlying that are contributing to my work 102 00:05:20,889 --> 00:05:21,471 difficulties? 103 00:05:21,471 --> 00:05:24,519 And so we're kind of working in that broader spectrum. 104 00:05:24,519 --> 00:05:27,610 So that's sort of the origin story of how we got to where we 105 00:05:27,629 --> 00:05:27,971 are today. 106 00:05:29,540 --> 00:05:29,901 Speaker 1: I love it. 107 00:05:29,901 --> 00:05:31,125 I think it's, you know it's. 108 00:05:31,125 --> 00:05:36,620 I think, first of all, from my standpoint and to get you know, 109 00:05:36,661 --> 00:05:41,223 maybe maybe a little personal here like I've, I've gone to 110 00:05:41,244 --> 00:05:44,384 therapy for a few years now there was a time where I just 111 00:05:44,425 --> 00:05:44,665 didn't. 112 00:05:44,665 --> 00:05:48,588 It wasn't that I didn't feel like I needed it, I just didn't 113 00:05:48,668 --> 00:05:49,507 because it was medical. 114 00:05:49,507 --> 00:05:53,290 It's like no, I don't have clinical depression, I don't 115 00:05:53,331 --> 00:05:54,331 need to go to therapy. 116 00:05:54,331 --> 00:05:58,434 And then went through a divorce and I'm like, oh shit, Maybe I 117 00:05:58,473 --> 00:06:03,257 need some help, Because much of what predicated that divorce it 118 00:06:03,297 --> 00:06:12,742 wasn't the divorce itself, it was the years and years of kind 119 00:06:12,762 --> 00:06:14,226 of withdrawing from personal relationships, being overwhelmed 120 00:06:14,226 --> 00:06:14,507 with work. 121 00:06:14,528 --> 00:06:16,192 You know there's some childhood traumas and things like that 122 00:06:16,211 --> 00:06:19,021 that were playing into the need to overachieve, you know, and 123 00:06:19,060 --> 00:06:22,470 all of this stuff you unpack in therapy and you can process and 124 00:06:22,490 --> 00:06:26,300 work through it, but we don't necessarily talk about it very 125 00:06:26,401 --> 00:06:26,841 openly. 126 00:06:26,841 --> 00:06:31,471 But the first therapist that I went to was like you need to 127 00:06:31,512 --> 00:06:34,062 work less, You're just working too much. 128 00:06:34,062 --> 00:06:36,290 You need to take some time off, you need to not. 129 00:06:36,290 --> 00:06:40,346 And it's like you know you don't get it, Like I have to do 130 00:06:40,406 --> 00:06:44,800 this, Like this is like this is part of me providing for my 131 00:06:44,745 --> 00:06:45,146 family. 132 00:06:45,146 --> 00:06:46,310 This is part of like this is just the job I of me. 133 00:06:46,310 --> 00:06:46,696 Providing for my family. 134 00:06:46,696 --> 00:06:48,095 This is part of like this is just the job I have. 135 00:06:48,095 --> 00:06:49,536 This is the skills that I have. 136 00:06:49,536 --> 00:06:53,841 You know, I can't just go, and even if I go to on a retreat or 137 00:06:53,882 --> 00:06:59,752 something like that, it it ain't good right like it's and and 138 00:07:00,112 --> 00:07:04,548 you know it's it I had to find I ended up finding a practitioner 139 00:07:04,548 --> 00:07:04,548 . 140 00:07:04,588 --> 00:07:10,889 That's been wonderful and I've had significant progress and 141 00:07:11,250 --> 00:07:15,548 went through different means and so I appreciate the reflection 142 00:07:15,588 --> 00:07:18,180 that, hey, this is not a cookie cutter for everybody and 143 00:07:18,221 --> 00:07:21,961 certainly I think there's people in high-pressure careers that 144 00:07:23,406 --> 00:07:26,904 for whatever reason reason, just can't and and I think that 145 00:07:26,925 --> 00:07:29,745 awareness and acceptance, then you can come up with ideas and 146 00:07:29,786 --> 00:07:33,488 solutions that that can work within the paradigm of what that 147 00:07:33,488 --> 00:07:34,290 person's dealing with. 148 00:07:34,290 --> 00:07:35,509 I love that approach. 149 00:07:36,355 --> 00:07:39,286 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and I think the goal is not to like 150 00:07:39,367 --> 00:07:40,771 eradicate all stress. 151 00:07:40,771 --> 00:07:42,206 You know either, which I think is I mean I would love that for 152 00:07:42,225 --> 00:07:42,386 everyone. 153 00:07:42,386 --> 00:07:43,593 However, you know that's, I think people I think you know 154 00:07:43,612 --> 00:07:44,858 either, which I think is I mean I would love that for everyone. 155 00:07:44,858 --> 00:07:47,766 However, you know that's, I think people I think you know 156 00:07:47,786 --> 00:07:50,521 we're like people try to get to this work life balance right. 157 00:07:50,983 --> 00:07:52,687 Speaker 1: Whatever that means, yeah, but that's not the human 158 00:07:52,728 --> 00:07:54,560 experience, right Like not. 159 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,067 We're supposed to face stress in our lives. 160 00:07:57,067 --> 00:07:58,692 That's what life is sometimes. 161 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:02,129 Speaker 2: Yes, that's how you learn, that's how you gain 162 00:08:02,170 --> 00:08:05,120 perspective, it's how you learn to take risk, like it's all 163 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:05,701 these things. 164 00:08:05,701 --> 00:08:10,471 And so I think when you keep that in mind and you accept that 165 00:08:10,471 --> 00:08:13,064 work-life balance should not actually be the goal because 166 00:08:13,105 --> 00:08:18,860 it's impossible, then you can come up with a more effective 167 00:08:18,940 --> 00:08:23,028 solution set, because you're not aiming for something that is 168 00:08:23,069 --> 00:08:26,500 impossible and might not actually be better for anyone 169 00:08:26,761 --> 00:08:26,961 ever. 170 00:08:26,961 --> 00:08:31,810 Anyway, um, and I think that that's kind of new, uh, you know 171 00:08:31,810 --> 00:08:34,462 , or more unique to like, sort of how we perceive, you know, 172 00:08:34,744 --> 00:08:38,673 because we want people to get to where they want to figure out 173 00:08:39,061 --> 00:08:41,807 what's important, get to where they need to be. 174 00:08:41,807 --> 00:08:46,677 If it's not where they are, not necessarily rush into that or 175 00:08:46,717 --> 00:08:49,163 make those changes immediately for a lot of reasons. 176 00:08:49,163 --> 00:08:52,743 But logistics, like you mentioned, we can't all just 177 00:08:52,763 --> 00:08:55,169 quit our jobs and move to the Bahamas and start an ice cream 178 00:08:55,210 --> 00:08:55,410 shop. 179 00:08:57,525 --> 00:09:01,087 Speaker 1: That sounds lovely, that sounds great. 180 00:09:06,162 --> 00:09:08,445 Speaker 2: The roadmap to do that is important, which also 181 00:09:08,485 --> 00:09:12,410 can build hope and relationships and give space for other things 182 00:09:12,410 --> 00:09:16,380 that are really important, you know, for mental health, and 183 00:09:17,123 --> 00:09:19,711 that's kind of, I think, the most effective way to do it. 184 00:09:21,001 --> 00:09:23,365 Speaker 1: I love that and I think you know this is one of 185 00:09:23,384 --> 00:09:25,390 the things that I know you do a lot of work in. 186 00:09:25,390 --> 00:09:31,610 I think a lot of times we get into these careers and many 187 00:09:31,649 --> 00:09:35,195 times certainly in my sector you kind of fall into it. 188 00:09:35,195 --> 00:09:40,190 You happen like there's a vacancy, you're good with people 189 00:09:40,190 --> 00:09:42,783 , and they're like, hey, you do HR, or you're an accountant and 190 00:09:42,844 --> 00:09:43,285 you're doing payroll. 191 00:09:43,285 --> 00:09:44,995 And then they're like, hey, you do HR, or you're an accountant 192 00:09:45,015 --> 00:09:45,700 and you're doing payroll. 193 00:09:45,700 --> 00:09:47,447 And then they're like, hey, you do HR as well. 194 00:09:47,447 --> 00:09:49,427 That's such a common story. 195 00:09:49,427 --> 00:09:53,541 And then you look back at 10, 15, 20 years later and you're 196 00:09:53,561 --> 00:09:55,807 like, how did I get here. 197 00:09:56,609 --> 00:09:59,404 Who am I, what are my values, what do I actually care about 198 00:10:01,408 --> 00:10:04,541 and how do I make sure I'm not miserable in my career for the 199 00:10:04,561 --> 00:10:05,203 rest of my life? 200 00:10:05,203 --> 00:10:08,927 And then and then beyond my career and I think certainly 201 00:10:09,008 --> 00:10:11,260 I've gone through that, I experienced that a few years ago 202 00:10:11,260 --> 00:10:14,005 where you know, you kind of have this, this, this 203 00:10:14,246 --> 00:10:19,744 existential crisis of what's my identity Like, what am I without 204 00:10:19,744 --> 00:10:21,447 work and what do I actually value. 205 00:10:21,447 --> 00:10:25,879 So for those of us that are kind of having that point of 206 00:10:25,938 --> 00:10:33,182 reflection or struggling with that on a personal level, what 207 00:10:33,224 --> 00:10:38,245 advice would you have for those individuals and how can we start 208 00:10:38,245 --> 00:10:42,131 to think about getting out of this rat race? 209 00:10:43,033 --> 00:10:45,633 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think what you're talking about is 210 00:10:45,673 --> 00:10:49,291 what we call career enmeshment, when your whole identity kind of 211 00:10:49,291 --> 00:10:52,000 becomes wrapped up in your job because, partly because you've 212 00:10:52,020 --> 00:10:56,409 spent so much time there and so often actually to your point, 213 00:10:57,592 --> 00:11:00,886 what happens this is sort of what brings people in is they 214 00:11:00,947 --> 00:11:04,191 lose their job, their company is acquired, they get laid off and 215 00:11:04,191 --> 00:11:07,705 they do have this existential moment because they don't have 216 00:11:07,764 --> 00:11:11,854 what's so core to them and they haven't touched any of the other 217 00:11:11,854 --> 00:11:13,605 baskets you know, so to speak. 218 00:11:13,605 --> 00:11:14,868 So their eggs are in one basket . 219 00:11:14,868 --> 00:11:16,681 They don't know what baskets are there. 220 00:11:16,681 --> 00:11:17,942 Are there any baskets you know? 221 00:11:17,942 --> 00:11:21,631 Like they just don't know what's what, who they are 222 00:11:21,772 --> 00:11:24,687 anymore, and it is an existential problem and it's 223 00:11:24,807 --> 00:11:25,489 really scary. 224 00:11:25,489 --> 00:11:26,861 It's really really scary. 225 00:11:27,582 --> 00:11:30,311 And also to think back, have I spent my whole life doing 226 00:11:30,331 --> 00:11:31,381 something that's important to me ? 227 00:11:31,381 --> 00:11:32,304 What am I doing? 228 00:11:32,304 --> 00:11:33,147 What am I doing here? 229 00:11:33,147 --> 00:11:39,366 It's a really big question and in general, I think one solution 230 00:11:39,366 --> 00:11:44,489 for that or to start working away from that, is also 231 00:11:44,528 --> 00:11:47,524 something that I think is good for everyone, which is kind of 232 00:11:47,563 --> 00:11:51,388 trying to discover what your actual values are, because most 233 00:11:51,427 --> 00:11:55,206 people have not had the opportunity or really known that 234 00:11:55,206 --> 00:11:57,451 they should think about their values. 235 00:11:57,451 --> 00:11:59,980 They kind of think that they know what they are or they're 236 00:12:00,001 --> 00:12:02,543 assumed about those around them or they've ignored them for a 237 00:12:02,585 --> 00:12:06,543 really long time for childhood trauma reasons or financial 238 00:12:06,582 --> 00:12:07,365 reasons or whatever. 239 00:12:08,086 --> 00:12:11,841 And then there is a place, like where people sort of arrive, so 240 00:12:11,861 --> 00:12:15,032 to speak, and they've checked a lot of boxes, they've made it, 241 00:12:15,533 --> 00:12:18,865 and they're so miserable because whatever they're doing has 242 00:12:19,024 --> 00:12:21,816 nothing to do with that, what they actually want to be doing, 243 00:12:22,778 --> 00:12:25,384 because there's nothing to do what's important to them, um, or 244 00:12:25,384 --> 00:12:26,787 like, because there's nothing to do with what's important to 245 00:12:26,807 --> 00:12:28,990 them, or maybe there's a slight overlap, right, but for the most 246 00:12:28,990 --> 00:12:34,687 part you're spending what like 8, 10, 12, 15 hours a day doing 247 00:12:34,706 --> 00:12:38,404 something that really is not in line with your values or is sort 248 00:12:38,404 --> 00:12:46,951 of counter to your values, and so you know, thinking about your 249 00:12:46,951 --> 00:12:49,188 values is a big task, and I think a lot of times people 250 00:12:49,208 --> 00:12:52,625 think it's pretty simple, like, oh well, I know that, like, 251 00:12:52,664 --> 00:12:54,909 money is important to me and family is important to me. 252 00:12:54,909 --> 00:12:57,806 So these are my values, and that's kind of on a surface 253 00:12:57,846 --> 00:12:58,027 level. 254 00:12:58,027 --> 00:12:59,986 Sure, that could be, that could be true. 255 00:12:59,986 --> 00:13:02,561 But what is it about family, like? 256 00:13:02,561 --> 00:13:03,866 What is it about the money? 257 00:13:03,866 --> 00:13:05,975 Is it the power, is it the freedom? 258 00:13:05,975 --> 00:13:06,840 Is it the security? 259 00:13:06,940 --> 00:13:10,105 You know there's like more questions and really getting 260 00:13:10,144 --> 00:13:13,269 into the nitty gritty, which is a task and it takes a long time, 261 00:13:13,269 --> 00:13:19,841 and people don't like that either, because you know we're 262 00:13:19,861 --> 00:13:21,089 in an era of quick fixes and I think that's in some ways also 263 00:13:21,109 --> 00:13:22,296 people's reservation about therapy in general is there is 264 00:13:22,316 --> 00:13:22,576 no time limit. 265 00:13:22,596 --> 00:13:26,065 It could take forever, and that seems daunting and unpleasant 266 00:13:26,566 --> 00:13:29,933 and it can be, but that doesn't mean it's not worth doing. 267 00:13:29,933 --> 00:13:34,065 And so you know, we actually just came out last week with an 268 00:13:34,225 --> 00:13:38,110 app for this because I feel pretty strongly about it where 269 00:13:38,370 --> 00:13:42,296 it's an app that helps you do values-based journaling. 270 00:13:42,296 --> 00:13:45,663 So you take a quiz that we have that pops up with your top 271 00:13:45,683 --> 00:13:49,187 three values and then you kind of write down throughout the day 272 00:13:49,187 --> 00:13:51,350 and you can rate how in alignment you were with those 273 00:13:51,409 --> 00:13:54,052 values or not. 274 00:13:54,052 --> 00:13:57,721 And then we have some prompt packs which are basically, if 275 00:13:57,780 --> 00:14:00,485 people aren't sure what to write , you can click in stuff that I 276 00:14:00,546 --> 00:14:03,745 might say to people like one of my clients or something like 277 00:14:03,785 --> 00:14:04,729 that, to help people. 278 00:14:04,729 --> 00:14:07,961 Because I mean personally, to be honest with you, I'm not like 279 00:14:07,961 --> 00:14:12,547 a journaling person by nature and I have forced myself to do 280 00:14:12,606 --> 00:14:17,347 so for a variety of reasons, but sometimes when I open up like a 281 00:14:17,347 --> 00:14:20,067 page or whatever it's on my phone, I'm just what. 282 00:14:20,067 --> 00:14:21,886 I don't even know what happened today. 283 00:14:22,259 --> 00:14:23,866 Speaker 3: You know, like I don't know what I'm supposed to 284 00:14:23,886 --> 00:14:24,248 write about. 285 00:14:24,740 --> 00:14:27,143 Speaker 2: And so that's why we put in the prompts, because I 286 00:14:27,202 --> 00:14:28,889 personally sometimes get a little stuck in that. 287 00:14:28,889 --> 00:14:33,350 But anyway so yeah, yeah, it's like I don't know. 288 00:14:37,059 --> 00:14:38,363 Speaker 3: I'm just trying to make it to dinner time. 289 00:14:38,383 --> 00:14:40,408 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know, I think really getting into that, 290 00:14:40,528 --> 00:14:43,702 because then and then what people find is that they have 291 00:14:43,743 --> 00:14:45,869 values that they didn't know that they had, because which 292 00:14:45,908 --> 00:14:48,323 also, values can change over time, because you know, life 293 00:14:48,344 --> 00:14:52,293 happens and you gain perspective , and then they're like, oh God, 294 00:14:52,293 --> 00:14:56,429 I this is so not in alignment with what I'm doing, with my 295 00:14:56,490 --> 00:14:59,729 time, and there's this panic and like I should quit right now, 296 00:14:59,788 --> 00:15:00,370 but I can't quit. 297 00:15:00,370 --> 00:15:04,864 But really, what the next step is is to make a plan, you know, 298 00:15:05,245 --> 00:15:08,607 make, you know like a very stepwise fashion, because a lot 299 00:15:08,628 --> 00:15:11,291 of things do keep people in their jobs, such as finances 300 00:15:11,610 --> 00:15:12,251 Right, finances right. 301 00:15:12,251 --> 00:15:16,875 And if you have a kid who's finishing college and you need 302 00:15:16,895 --> 00:15:22,642 to pay for that, then maybe right now is not the time to 303 00:15:22,663 --> 00:15:23,946 make that switch, but maybe in three years you'd be more able 304 00:15:23,966 --> 00:15:24,366 to make that choice. 305 00:15:24,366 --> 00:15:25,048 And so what does that look like ? 306 00:15:25,048 --> 00:15:27,842 And then, how do you manage, between now and then, to build 307 00:15:27,863 --> 00:15:30,129 your identity, to figure out who you are, to figure out what's 308 00:15:30,169 --> 00:15:32,263 important to you and to fill those buckets a little bit, 309 00:15:32,683 --> 00:15:34,106 because even that is important. 310 00:15:34,106 --> 00:15:36,071 I think people love a grand gesture, right? 311 00:15:36,071 --> 00:15:39,899 They love to change things immensely and do something 312 00:15:39,938 --> 00:15:40,179 different. 313 00:15:40,179 --> 00:15:44,028 But really it doesn't necessarily take that large 314 00:15:44,067 --> 00:15:47,542 scale change to feel better, especially if the goal is not to 315 00:15:47,542 --> 00:15:49,066 eradicate all of your negative feelings. 316 00:15:49,066 --> 00:15:52,241 You can still hate work a little bit but then feel so 317 00:15:52,282 --> 00:15:54,886 motivated by these things that you're doing outside, even if 318 00:15:54,907 --> 00:15:56,649 they're like for bits and pieces of time. 319 00:15:57,390 --> 00:16:00,644 You know like, for example, we had somebody once who it was 320 00:16:00,664 --> 00:16:04,538 really important to them to like help the underserved, and this 321 00:16:04,577 --> 00:16:09,389 person was a corporate lawyer at the time and so and could not 322 00:16:09,429 --> 00:16:09,971 quit their job. 323 00:16:10,592 --> 00:16:14,461 And so he decided to start teaching English as a second 324 00:16:14,501 --> 00:16:18,969 language on the weekends, just for a couple of hours online, 325 00:16:19,330 --> 00:16:22,274 because that brought him a lot of joy and fulfillment in that 326 00:16:22,841 --> 00:16:25,157 and it was something that didn't take up too much time and it 327 00:16:25,177 --> 00:16:29,140 was manageable and it really helped sort of fuel him and 328 00:16:29,221 --> 00:16:32,808 because he had these little pockets of joy not that there 329 00:16:32,849 --> 00:16:34,493 wasn't joy before, but now there's more joy. 330 00:16:34,493 --> 00:16:37,863 Pockets of joy Not that there wasn't joy before, but now 331 00:16:37,883 --> 00:16:39,405 there's more joy and it feels you can feel lighter and you 332 00:16:39,426 --> 00:16:42,091 know kind of start to get out of the hole and then you have a 333 00:16:42,131 --> 00:16:43,100 plan for when it ends. 334 00:16:43,100 --> 00:16:43,361 You know. 335 00:16:43,361 --> 00:16:45,889 If you know, you only have to do something for a certain 336 00:16:45,908 --> 00:16:48,764 period of time, even if that period of time is longer, you 337 00:16:48,806 --> 00:16:50,932 know there's an endpoint and you know where you're going and 338 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:51,921 you're excited about it. 339 00:16:51,921 --> 00:16:54,784 So that feels a lot different than just being like stuck in a 340 00:16:54,825 --> 00:16:55,426 hole at work. 341 00:16:55,426 --> 00:16:56,147 You know. 342 00:16:56,807 --> 00:17:01,855 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I can, like you know, you could 343 00:17:01,875 --> 00:17:02,735 probably unpack this. 344 00:17:02,735 --> 00:17:04,845 I'm sure you've got your, your, your thoughts on this. 345 00:17:04,845 --> 00:17:10,020 But, like, great example, on a personal level, I used to want 346 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:13,144 to be a musician, you know, and now I'm in a human resource. 347 00:17:13,144 --> 00:17:15,468 I'm now I'm a human resources officer, you know, and it's, and 348 00:17:15,468 --> 00:17:19,913 it's it's so far away from like where I started as a, as a 349 00:17:19,953 --> 00:17:24,111 child, um, but that's my, that's my passion, and but it's it's 350 00:17:24,131 --> 00:17:26,077 interesting, cause I think what you know. 351 00:17:26,298 --> 00:17:28,602 I love that you said you can hate your job a little bit, 352 00:17:29,983 --> 00:17:33,728 because the reality is it, and I would say, like anybody that's 353 00:17:33,748 --> 00:17:37,373 in human resources or leader of people, you should hate your job 354 00:17:37,373 --> 00:17:41,300 a little bit because you have to fire people, right, like 355 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:45,868 there are aspects of your job that are absolutely like they 356 00:17:45,929 --> 00:17:49,121 should make you hate what you're doing in that moment, and if 357 00:17:49,161 --> 00:17:51,689 you don't, then there's a problem. 358 00:17:51,689 --> 00:17:53,846 Right, you should hate terminating people. 359 00:17:53,846 --> 00:17:54,826 Like that should be the worst thing. 360 00:17:54,826 --> 00:17:55,250 Like you should wake up dreading that. 361 00:17:55,250 --> 00:17:55,696 And if you don't, right, you should hate terminating people. 362 00:17:55,696 --> 00:17:55,901 That should be the worst thing. 363 00:17:55,901 --> 00:17:59,023 You should wake up dreading that, and if you don't, you've 364 00:17:59,045 --> 00:18:00,008 lost some of your humanity. 365 00:18:00,008 --> 00:18:01,885 That's my perspective. 366 00:18:04,304 --> 00:18:08,692 But because of that over the years I truly like I'm a good 367 00:18:08,732 --> 00:18:09,394 corporate soldier. 368 00:18:09,394 --> 00:18:12,583 I can do that stuff right For whatever reason. 369 00:18:12,583 --> 00:18:16,667 I can flip a switch and be extremely effective at being 370 00:18:16,748 --> 00:18:22,195 logical and laser focused on corporate objectives. 371 00:18:22,195 --> 00:18:27,270 But that fights against the soul of who I am. 372 00:18:27,270 --> 00:18:32,695 The soul of who I am is kind of a creative connector that uses 373 00:18:32,776 --> 00:18:37,407 music to do that, and so a couple years ago I kind of got 374 00:18:37,468 --> 00:18:43,425 reengaged in that part of my brain and, while I am certainly 375 00:18:43,486 --> 00:18:47,294 not going to quit my corporate gig to go play music, I have 376 00:18:47,339 --> 00:18:50,862 been able to incorporate music into my life and playing a show 377 00:18:50,882 --> 00:18:56,550 tonight, just a one-man show, local, great little local place. 378 00:18:56,550 --> 00:19:01,566 I'm recording some music, I'm writing songs again, you know, 379 00:19:01,846 --> 00:19:01,946 and. 380 00:19:01,946 --> 00:19:05,981 But what's been interesting is, as I've started to reconnect to 381 00:19:05,981 --> 00:19:10,737 that point, the rest of my life has been more enjoyable, right. 382 00:19:10,836 --> 00:19:13,905 So, even though I still hate aspects of my job and my team 383 00:19:13,945 --> 00:19:17,103 can quote me on that if they're listening to this I hate my job 384 00:19:17,144 --> 00:19:23,647 sometimes, sorry, but I feel like it's made me a more 385 00:19:23,788 --> 00:19:27,074 relatable and a better leader because of that. 386 00:19:27,074 --> 00:19:32,569 So I do think there's so much inherent truth in that but it's 387 00:19:32,631 --> 00:19:34,513 difficult for people to do without guidance. 388 00:19:34,513 --> 00:19:40,981 Truth than that, but it's difficult for people to do 389 00:19:41,001 --> 00:19:41,442 without guidance, right? 390 00:19:41,442 --> 00:19:42,905 So maybe stepping back and like as a leader of people and a 391 00:19:42,986 --> 00:19:50,020 corporate leader, how can we help others who are maybe 392 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:50,942 struggling with this? 393 00:19:50,942 --> 00:19:53,990 And certainly we're on the front lines of seeing workplace 394 00:19:54,030 --> 00:19:55,101 stress A lot of times. 395 00:19:55,101 --> 00:19:58,126 We're the people that people come to when they are near 396 00:19:58,166 --> 00:20:00,511 burnout or breakdown or overwhelmed. 397 00:20:00,511 --> 00:20:05,066 How can we help them kind of understand some of these 398 00:20:05,125 --> 00:20:11,020 principles and kind of get out of this stuck feeling? 399 00:20:12,604 --> 00:20:13,506 Speaker 2: It's a great question . 400 00:20:13,506 --> 00:20:18,153 I think the first advice is listening, which I know you guys 401 00:20:18,153 --> 00:20:19,162 do a lot of anyway. 402 00:20:19,162 --> 00:20:24,653 But you know people will say if you ask them right what's wrong 403 00:20:24,653 --> 00:20:25,863 , they might give you an answer. 404 00:20:25,863 --> 00:20:28,593 But if you ask them a little bit more and get a little 405 00:20:28,713 --> 00:20:32,384 further into it, you realize it's about something else most 406 00:20:32,404 --> 00:20:35,791 of the time and that something else is actually the root of the 407 00:20:35,791 --> 00:20:36,192 problem. 408 00:20:36,192 --> 00:20:41,377 And so solving, you know, really inquiring in a way that's 409 00:20:41,377 --> 00:20:44,609 helpful, so that you're not putting a Band-Aid on something, 410 00:20:44,609 --> 00:20:47,628 instead you're actually trying to heal what's causing the 411 00:20:47,669 --> 00:20:49,700 problem, is a great way to go. 412 00:20:49,700 --> 00:20:52,580 I mean, the thing about that is it does take a lot of time and 413 00:20:52,621 --> 00:20:54,448 you have to have relationships with people. 414 00:20:54,448 --> 00:20:57,653 They can't be afraid of HR, you know, or you know you have to 415 00:20:57,693 --> 00:20:59,983 kind of put them at ease and let them have a space where they 416 00:21:00,005 --> 00:21:03,779 can say what they need to say, which can sometimes be about 417 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:09,951 other people at work or their boss or CEO or whatever, but 418 00:21:09,990 --> 00:21:11,874 oftentimes it's not even about that. 419 00:21:12,460 --> 00:21:15,749 So I think, really listening and asking a lot of questions, and 420 00:21:15,769 --> 00:21:18,103 then people like to be heard anyway and sometimes that's 421 00:21:18,163 --> 00:21:20,750 enough to just kind of get through the day. 422 00:21:20,750 --> 00:21:23,807 It's just to have someone say, hey, you look pretty miserable, 423 00:21:23,847 --> 00:21:24,691 like are you all right? 424 00:21:24,691 --> 00:21:28,740 Because I don't think people ask that question very often and 425 00:21:28,740 --> 00:21:32,229 even when I was in grad school I went through a period of time 426 00:21:32,249 --> 00:21:33,833 where I was really struggling with a lot of stuff. 427 00:21:33,833 --> 00:21:37,286 There's a period of time where I was really struggling with a 428 00:21:37,306 --> 00:21:38,009 lot of stuff. 429 00:21:38,009 --> 00:21:39,294 There's a lot of things going on in my personal life. 430 00:21:39,294 --> 00:21:39,776 I was in an internship. 431 00:21:39,776 --> 00:21:40,198 That was really hard. 432 00:21:40,198 --> 00:21:42,525 There was all these things Probably a couple months into 433 00:21:42,565 --> 00:21:42,766 that. 434 00:21:42,766 --> 00:21:46,343 Another thing I mean obviously we're all therapists, but my 435 00:21:46,363 --> 00:21:48,810 grad student was like, are you all right? 436 00:21:48,810 --> 00:21:51,309 And I was like I am not all right. 437 00:21:51,309 --> 00:21:55,026 Thank you for asking me, and I just kind of also prompted me to 438 00:21:55,026 --> 00:21:57,473 do a little more self-reflection of how to help 439 00:21:57,513 --> 00:21:59,240 myself and what needs to happen next. 440 00:21:59,339 --> 00:22:02,500 So I think people like to be seen and heard and that's a 441 00:22:02,561 --> 00:22:07,509 really good first step and I think also allowing them or 442 00:22:07,690 --> 00:22:09,726 creating and this is hard because it's also a company 443 00:22:09,766 --> 00:22:13,188 culture issue but creating a space where it's like OK to take 444 00:22:13,188 --> 00:22:13,951 a mental health day. 445 00:22:13,951 --> 00:22:20,085 And I think that that's not about saying it, because I think 446 00:22:20,085 --> 00:22:21,330 and we say all sorts of stuff you know and people, but they 447 00:22:21,351 --> 00:22:23,964 need to be able to believe that that's a safe thing to do, and 448 00:22:24,266 --> 00:22:27,298 the way that that happens is through, you know, demonstration 449 00:22:27,298 --> 00:22:30,867 from leadership and you know leading by relationship and all 450 00:22:30,887 --> 00:22:32,941 sorts of other things that are bigger than what you're asking, 451 00:22:33,020 --> 00:22:38,472 but, you know, allowing them to know that everyone's a person. 452 00:22:38,472 --> 00:22:42,528 We all have so much going on in our personal lives and work on 453 00:22:42,567 --> 00:22:43,170 top of that. 454 00:22:43,170 --> 00:22:44,071 We work so hard. 455 00:22:44,071 --> 00:22:45,134 There's so much here. 456 00:22:45,134 --> 00:22:46,364 You know it's a lot to carry. 457 00:22:46,364 --> 00:22:47,528 It's just as a person. 458 00:22:48,382 --> 00:22:51,028 And then you add on the other kinds of struggles, like trauma 459 00:22:51,529 --> 00:22:54,758 or, you know, difficult person at work or not making a 460 00:22:54,817 --> 00:22:56,904 promotion or something it's just like a lot. 461 00:22:56,904 --> 00:23:00,559 Or not making a promotion or something, it's just like a lot. 462 00:23:00,559 --> 00:23:02,491 So I think just listening, creating a safe space and then 463 00:23:02,532 --> 00:23:05,528 teaching people about the things that we're talking about is 464 00:23:05,567 --> 00:23:08,950 really helpful, because a lot of people don't know about any of 465 00:23:09,049 --> 00:23:12,465 it and that's really eye-opening for them when they come to us. 466 00:23:19,845 --> 00:23:23,711 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's so much there that we could 467 00:23:24,413 --> 00:23:25,013 take away. 468 00:23:25,013 --> 00:23:31,809 But in my, my call to action, hr people is like you can't just 469 00:23:31,809 --> 00:23:35,761 say it because because there's a lot, there's a lot out there 470 00:23:35,801 --> 00:23:37,507 right now where it's like, you know, mental mental health is 471 00:23:37,567 --> 00:23:38,589 important and there's all. 472 00:23:38,589 --> 00:23:40,586 You know, we support our employees with their mental 473 00:23:40,606 --> 00:23:43,980 health journeys, but it's one thing to say that and it's 474 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,166 another thing to not allow somebody to use PTL. 475 00:23:47,369 --> 00:23:47,550 Speaker 3: Right. 476 00:23:47,790 --> 00:23:51,705 Speaker 1: Right, and that's where I get really kind of 477 00:23:52,528 --> 00:23:53,530 pretty passionate about. 478 00:23:53,530 --> 00:23:58,131 You know our role within our organizations and that is you 479 00:23:58,230 --> 00:23:58,912 own this stuff. 480 00:23:58,912 --> 00:24:02,442 If you say something and you have a policy that directly 481 00:24:02,502 --> 00:24:06,165 contradicts that statement, then you have failed as an HR 482 00:24:06,205 --> 00:24:06,606 professional. 483 00:24:06,606 --> 00:24:13,982 Great example we had a corporate management meeting and 484 00:24:13,982 --> 00:24:17,509 the theme of the management meeting was psychological safety 485 00:24:17,509 --> 00:24:17,509 . 486 00:24:17,509 --> 00:24:21,984 It was very intentional and there's a ton of research out 487 00:24:22,005 --> 00:24:24,681 there amy edmondson is kind of the leader in the research and 488 00:24:24,701 --> 00:24:25,041 that's what. 489 00:24:25,041 --> 00:24:28,770 That was the content that we, we, we shared and reflected 490 00:24:28,791 --> 00:24:29,780 around as a leadership team. 491 00:24:29,780 --> 00:24:33,430 But basically it says like psychologically safe teams win. 492 00:24:33,430 --> 00:24:35,461 Right, it's as simple as that. 493 00:24:35,461 --> 00:24:41,961 But from an hr, you can't just say that we want psychological 494 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:47,251 safety and then make people feel threatened at work or feel like 495 00:24:47,251 --> 00:24:51,123 if they say the wrong thing, they're going to be on a hit 496 00:24:51,163 --> 00:24:53,084 list and fired the next week. 497 00:24:53,084 --> 00:24:55,707 And so it was funny. 498 00:24:55,707 --> 00:24:56,708 We had a. 499 00:24:56,708 --> 00:25:00,351 Then we had a dine-around and we asked everybody to actually 500 00:25:00,451 --> 00:25:06,455 write down on, like anonymously, on cards, like real bold 501 00:25:06,936 --> 00:25:13,830 lessons for leadership, and it was like people were afraid to 502 00:25:13,871 --> 00:25:14,472 write it down. 503 00:25:14,472 --> 00:25:18,001 And so in my mind I'm like, well, you know what We've got 504 00:25:18,041 --> 00:25:23,265 work to do, and so we, we, you know we took the that feedback 505 00:25:23,345 --> 00:25:26,821 and we we kind of expanded it, but that's it's like. 506 00:25:26,821 --> 00:25:27,505 It's stuff like that. 507 00:25:27,505 --> 00:25:29,866 You like, you have to be honest with yourself Like, are we just 508 00:25:29,866 --> 00:25:32,027 saying it or are we actually doing something about it? 509 00:25:33,060 --> 00:25:37,589 One of the aspects that we touched on this early and we 510 00:25:37,609 --> 00:25:39,874 could spend like an entire day talking about this. 511 00:25:39,874 --> 00:25:45,491 You talked about psychology and mental health being very, very 512 00:25:45,531 --> 00:25:47,876 kind of clinical and medically based. 513 00:25:47,876 --> 00:25:52,143 Right, and I think, as much as we've tried to eliminate the 514 00:25:52,223 --> 00:25:53,265 stigma, there is still one out there. 515 00:25:53,265 --> 00:25:56,248 There is still one out there and certainly in the workplace 516 00:25:56,288 --> 00:26:00,613 there's a stigma around people that need to use an employee 517 00:26:00,653 --> 00:26:03,476 assistance program or people that need to take a mental 518 00:26:03,496 --> 00:26:23,066 health day, and there's still some trepidation out people as 519 00:26:23,086 --> 00:26:25,630 we do benefits and things like that. 520 00:26:25,630 --> 00:26:31,366 How can we make sure that we are preventing a stigma from 521 00:26:31,426 --> 00:26:36,502 occurring or giving people a comfortability saying hey, no, I 522 00:26:36,502 --> 00:26:40,884 might not have clinical depression, but I am near, near 523 00:26:40,923 --> 00:26:45,296 workplace burnout or I I feel like I need a, I need some help. 524 00:26:45,296 --> 00:26:47,422 How can we help our employees work through some of these 525 00:26:47,442 --> 00:26:49,847 things in a way that's not causing stimulus? 526 00:26:51,211 --> 00:26:53,201 Speaker 2: well, I think even just explaining that is a great 527 00:26:53,221 --> 00:26:53,722 first step. 528 00:26:53,722 --> 00:26:57,691 You know, like I think people don't realize that therapy can 529 00:26:57,730 --> 00:27:03,107 be used all the time, so you don't necessarily have to have x 530 00:27:03,107 --> 00:27:03,448 , y and z. 531 00:27:03,448 --> 00:27:09,567 And I think part of the stigma too is like sometimes, is you 532 00:27:09,587 --> 00:27:11,692 know people's own stuff? 533 00:27:11,692 --> 00:27:15,980 They're not ready to navigate that yet, but they see people 534 00:27:16,099 --> 00:27:19,582 around them and so it's almost like a defense you know against 535 00:27:19,622 --> 00:27:20,784 like their own stuff. 536 00:27:20,784 --> 00:27:25,173 That might be a lot of like putting out that stigma or, um, 537 00:27:27,103 --> 00:27:27,663 something like that. 538 00:27:27,663 --> 00:27:28,727 I'll just leave it at that. 539 00:27:28,826 --> 00:27:32,327 But um, so I think you know, just telling people, you know 540 00:27:32,387 --> 00:27:34,700 you can go to, I mean, people have coaches throughout their 541 00:27:34,700 --> 00:27:36,765 whole life for everything right, and you're a kid, like 542 00:27:36,805 --> 00:27:39,109 basketball, you've got SAT tutors you have. 543 00:27:39,109 --> 00:27:42,267 You know, like you have in residency, you've got fellows 544 00:27:42,307 --> 00:27:43,150 telling you what to do. 545 00:27:43,150 --> 00:27:46,329 Like you know, people are not afraid of executive coaches. 546 00:27:46,329 --> 00:27:49,548 They're not afraid of regular coaches which, by the way, I 547 00:27:49,588 --> 00:27:52,065 mean I think there's some great coaches out there, but there's 548 00:27:52,105 --> 00:27:53,630 no regulation for coaching. 549 00:27:53,630 --> 00:28:00,145 So also so like you could spend all this money on somebody who 550 00:28:00,166 --> 00:28:01,451 really doesn't have the experience to help you. 551 00:28:01,451 --> 00:28:03,919 And people aren't afraid of that, but they're afraid of of 552 00:28:03,939 --> 00:28:06,346 like other things, and they're afraid of therapy because they 553 00:28:06,405 --> 00:28:09,583 don't want to know sometimes what is quote unquote wrong with 554 00:28:09,583 --> 00:28:09,824 them. 555 00:28:10,124 --> 00:28:13,291 But really that's not what the topic is a lot of the time. 556 00:28:13,291 --> 00:28:16,788 It's about how to manage, it's about how to reach your goals, 557 00:28:16,847 --> 00:28:21,065 it's about self-improvement, it's about quality of life, you 558 00:28:21,125 --> 00:28:25,093 know, and sometimes that has to do with clinical issues, um and 559 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,886 but sometimes it doesn't, or sometimes it does, but you're 560 00:28:27,906 --> 00:28:30,102 not ready to do that, so you don't do that and you do other 561 00:28:30,142 --> 00:28:30,723 things instead. 562 00:28:30,723 --> 00:28:33,892 Um, you know, it is self-guided in that way. 563 00:28:33,892 --> 00:28:40,362 There's no, you can't a therapist, can't really you talk 564 00:28:40,362 --> 00:28:40,682 about anything. 565 00:28:40,702 --> 00:28:42,125 So I think just keeping that in mind and sharing that with 566 00:28:42,145 --> 00:28:46,621 employees is helpful To extent people are comfortable. 567 00:28:46,621 --> 00:28:51,089 I think, sharing personal experiences or people you know 568 00:28:51,490 --> 00:28:55,686 who've been to therapy, or you know taking a mental health day, 569 00:28:55,686 --> 00:28:58,621 or you know, oh, you should do that because I did it, like six 570 00:28:58,661 --> 00:29:00,265 weeks ago, because this thing happened. 571 00:29:00,265 --> 00:29:04,682 You know anything that's appropriate and it depends also 572 00:29:04,721 --> 00:29:07,068 again on the workplace culture, how big your company is, you 573 00:29:07,108 --> 00:29:09,604 know what kind of management style, you know all of that. 574 00:29:09,604 --> 00:29:14,020 But to not just say it but to give an example, you know, like 575 00:29:14,181 --> 00:29:16,226 this happens, like somebody else did this the other day. 576 00:29:16,246 --> 00:29:19,252 Don't, we're not gonna tell you who it is, but you know, because 577 00:29:19,252 --> 00:29:22,319 psychologically safe teams do win, because they are productive 578 00:29:22,319 --> 00:29:25,326 , they're focused, they feel cared for, they feel heard, they 579 00:29:25,326 --> 00:29:27,050 feel seen, they're efficient. 580 00:29:27,050 --> 00:29:29,163 You're not paying for constant turnover. 581 00:29:29,163 --> 00:29:32,231 You know hiring and firing and all this, you know it's like it 582 00:29:32,311 --> 00:29:37,068 is the way to really succeed and I think a lot of that has to be 583 00:29:37,068 --> 00:29:40,601 top down and culture based, which is sort of a separate 584 00:29:40,641 --> 00:29:42,304 question or topic rather. 585 00:29:42,304 --> 00:29:46,973 But I think the more that we can just alert people to the 586 00:29:47,019 --> 00:29:51,008 helpfulness and that other people are actually doing this, 587 00:29:51,188 --> 00:29:55,863 you know, is good, because people will say, like they don't 588 00:29:55,863 --> 00:29:57,987 need a mental health day after their parent died. 589 00:29:57,987 --> 00:30:00,873 I'm like you have to be out of this office for weeks. 590 00:30:00,873 --> 00:30:02,055 I don't understand. 591 00:30:03,915 --> 00:30:09,073 Speaker 1: I know it's wild, I think it's interesting. 592 00:30:09,073 --> 00:30:17,862 Yeah, I totally agree, I don't know it's interesting as a 593 00:30:17,922 --> 00:30:21,626 society that, like we, you know we celebrate people like 594 00:30:21,686 --> 00:30:26,874 foregoing personal, you know personal needs and you know, for 595 00:30:26,874 --> 00:30:29,705 the sake of profitability I mean it's definitely a societal 596 00:30:29,726 --> 00:30:30,248 construct. 597 00:30:30,248 --> 00:30:32,644 You know, I don't think you can blame, you can't blame any 598 00:30:32,864 --> 00:30:36,553 single corporation for it or necessarily any single leader 599 00:30:36,613 --> 00:30:36,792 for it. 600 00:30:36,792 --> 00:30:38,967 I think you know we kind of celebrate that right. 601 00:30:38,967 --> 00:30:39,910 Those are our heroes. 602 00:30:39,910 --> 00:30:48,674 But I do think we're seeing a little bit of a sea change here 603 00:30:49,375 --> 00:30:53,605 where corporations are realizing that, you know they do have to 604 00:30:53,806 --> 00:30:55,569 kind of support the whole human. 605 00:30:55,569 --> 00:30:59,502 You can't I think COVID taught us that right that you can't 606 00:30:59,583 --> 00:31:02,315 just keep operating business as usual when people are going 607 00:31:02,335 --> 00:31:05,945 through these, these traumatic events or tragic events or or 608 00:31:05,986 --> 00:31:09,252 just need need some fricking time to like catch their breath. 609 00:31:11,661 --> 00:31:14,868 And you know I I think, like from my statement, to the extent 610 00:31:14,868 --> 00:31:15,771 that this helps anybody. 611 00:31:15,771 --> 00:31:19,470 Like I see a therapist usually every other week, but at least 612 00:31:19,569 --> 00:31:26,059 once a month and sometimes it's just unpacking the month and 613 00:31:26,099 --> 00:31:29,830 it's literally just with privilege. 614 00:31:29,830 --> 00:31:32,400 So it is truly a safe space. 615 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:36,468 I can just talk about all my concerns and hopes and fears and 616 00:31:36,468 --> 00:31:40,240 dreams and dreams that aren't coming true or whatever, and 617 00:31:40,299 --> 00:31:43,321 sometimes it gets really intense and challenging and sometimes 618 00:31:43,382 --> 00:31:46,424 it's kind of surfacy and I feel like I just kind of just 619 00:31:46,625 --> 00:31:47,028 unpacked. 620 00:31:47,028 --> 00:31:48,686 For me it's like going to the gym. 621 00:31:48,686 --> 00:31:52,963 It's like sometimes you just got to work it out and then I'm 622 00:31:53,003 --> 00:31:56,209 better afterwards and I get paid to think. 623 00:31:56,209 --> 00:32:00,223 So I got to make sure that my brain is operating at as close 624 00:32:00,284 --> 00:32:03,951 to 100% capacity as possible and that's how I think about it and 625 00:32:03,951 --> 00:32:07,525 I think you know I'm not saying that's the right way to think 626 00:32:07,565 --> 00:32:13,467 about it, but I think sharing that we go to therapy is maybe 627 00:32:13,507 --> 00:32:17,142 the first step, just like hey, it's okay, right, yeah. 628 00:32:17,763 --> 00:32:20,261 Speaker 2: I love that perspective and I'll also share. 629 00:32:20,261 --> 00:32:23,592 You know, I mean I've been in therapy since I was like 25. 630 00:32:23,592 --> 00:32:26,587 I'm not going to tell you how old I am, but that was a really 631 00:32:26,627 --> 00:32:32,143 long time ago Mostly with the same person actually, and she's 632 00:32:32,262 --> 00:32:36,780 out on leave now since probably December sometime, and I think 633 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:37,965 she's February, march. 634 00:32:37,965 --> 00:32:38,729 We're resuming. 635 00:32:38,729 --> 00:32:43,491 But I like feel it in a way that was almost surprising to me 636 00:32:43,491 --> 00:32:48,884 , even though I know all of this information where, like, I feel 637 00:32:48,884 --> 00:32:51,513 like I have I've bottled up all these things that are happening 638 00:32:51,513 --> 00:32:53,984 and some are really hard and serious and about other stuff 639 00:32:54,045 --> 00:32:56,882 and some are not, but I'm like I don't have a space to kind of 640 00:32:56,922 --> 00:33:00,809 like talk about any of this and I don't like it and it is not 641 00:33:00,869 --> 00:33:03,621 making me a better person, it's making things harder for me and 642 00:33:03,661 --> 00:33:07,008 a less effective person at work, at home and all that. 643 00:33:07,008 --> 00:33:09,833 And even you know I'll also share. 644 00:33:09,893 --> 00:33:13,490 Like a while ago I had, I had some like very traumatic events 645 00:33:13,510 --> 00:33:16,342 happen and I know some about trauma because I'm a therapist 646 00:33:16,363 --> 00:33:17,510 and so it was just really interesting because I know some 647 00:33:17,531 --> 00:33:18,640 about trauma because I'm a therapist and so it was just 648 00:33:18,660 --> 00:33:21,530 really interesting because I know all of these things that 649 00:33:21,550 --> 00:33:24,902 happen to people right, like flashbacks and cognitive changes 650 00:33:24,902 --> 00:33:28,691 and all this, and as it's happening to me, I was almost 651 00:33:28,711 --> 00:33:31,445 like surprised by it that I couldn't just like navigate that 652 00:33:31,445 --> 00:33:33,092 by myself, because I knew what it was. 653 00:33:34,637 --> 00:33:37,124 Not to say, I hadn't experienced trauma before, but not in this 654 00:33:37,203 --> 00:33:37,404 way. 655 00:33:37,404 --> 00:33:43,444 And you know, even I was like, well, I off, I go to therapy 656 00:33:43,664 --> 00:33:46,991 twice a week now because this is like I'm stuck in this, even 657 00:33:47,012 --> 00:33:49,304 though I can see it happening to me, I know what it is. 658 00:33:49,304 --> 00:33:51,269 It's like I can't help myself. 659 00:33:51,269 --> 00:33:54,041 And so I think, even when you do have a lot of information, or 660 00:33:54,041 --> 00:33:56,526 you know about anxiety or you've read about it and you 661 00:33:56,566 --> 00:34:00,471 know about the hierarchy of exposure or whatever doing it 662 00:34:00,550 --> 00:34:04,422 and implementing, it is impossible to do on your own, um 663 00:34:04,422 --> 00:34:05,565 , even if you know about it. 664 00:34:05,665 --> 00:34:08,601 So I think that's also something to keep in mind too, is like 665 00:34:08,621 --> 00:34:11,751 you can read all you want about it, but it's really hard to do 666 00:34:14,324 --> 00:34:15,246 absolutely so. 667 00:34:15,626 --> 00:34:18,612 Speaker 1: Uh with that, I think , um, you know that's a kind of 668 00:34:18,711 --> 00:34:23,829 a great but you know a great place to uh, to shift gears and 669 00:34:24,009 --> 00:34:25,393 and we're coming to the end of our time together. 670 00:34:25,393 --> 00:34:27,043 But, like I said before, we hit record. 671 00:34:27,043 --> 00:34:29,311 I'm like we always get into these conversations and then 672 00:34:29,371 --> 00:34:31,570 like, like we're just getting warmed up and then we have to 673 00:34:31,670 --> 00:34:34,101 end, you know, the like 30 minute podcast recording. 674 00:34:34,101 --> 00:34:39,590 So, um with that, I want to want to shift gears and um, to 675 00:34:39,610 --> 00:34:43,561 shift gears and I want to ask a couple questions on the Rebel HR 676 00:34:43,561 --> 00:34:44,164 flash round. 677 00:34:44,164 --> 00:34:44,565 Are you ready? 678 00:34:45,367 --> 00:34:46,150 Speaker 2: All right, let's hear it. 679 00:34:47,099 --> 00:34:50,570 Speaker 1: Okay, Question number one where do we need to rebel? 680 00:34:52,900 --> 00:34:54,242 Speaker 2: We were talking about this before. 681 00:34:54,242 --> 00:35:00,193 I think we need to have a push for civil discourse in every 682 00:35:00,492 --> 00:35:01,474 facet of our lives. 683 00:35:01,474 --> 00:35:03,626 I mean, how can we learn? 684 00:35:03,626 --> 00:35:07,083 We need to learn from each other, and that's how we, you 685 00:35:07,103 --> 00:35:09,210 know, that's how doctors learn to be doctors they learn from 686 00:35:09,250 --> 00:35:09,590 each other. 687 00:35:09,590 --> 00:35:13,210 And so I think we're so afraid of people that are different. 688 00:35:13,210 --> 00:35:16,552 Now, I think, really embracing that and asking questions like 689 00:35:16,592 --> 00:35:18,018 why did you do that, like what is you do that? 690 00:35:18,018 --> 00:35:21,586 What is important to you, without the judgment and 691 00:35:21,766 --> 00:35:25,134 accusatory language, I think is really important. 692 00:35:26,621 --> 00:35:27,802 Speaker 1: Can I make a comment? 693 00:35:27,802 --> 00:35:31,811 This is kind of like a random tangent on that, but I just 694 00:35:31,891 --> 00:35:33,463 learned that there's this TikTok challenge called the no 695 00:35:33,523 --> 00:35:35,068 Judgment Challenge and I was hearing this from my 11-year-old 696 00:35:35,068 --> 00:35:37,074 and she's like yeah, we did the no Judgment challenge. 697 00:35:37,074 --> 00:35:39,724 And I was hearing this from my 11 year old and she's like, yeah 698 00:35:39,724 --> 00:35:41,532 , we did the no, the no judgment challenge. 699 00:35:41,532 --> 00:35:45,545 And you say like you say like three things that could be 700 00:35:45,605 --> 00:35:50,132 judged or should be judged, Um, and the challenge is for someone 701 00:35:50,132 --> 00:35:51,844 to just sit there and listen and not judge. 702 00:35:51,844 --> 00:35:54,510 You Like that's the challenge and I'm like that's kind of a 703 00:35:54,679 --> 00:35:55,304 great for you. 704 00:35:55,304 --> 00:35:57,134 Like you hear about these stupid dance challenges and 705 00:35:57,153 --> 00:35:57,315 stuff. 706 00:35:57,315 --> 00:36:00,420 You're like you know what I like, that challenge, but it was 707 00:36:00,420 --> 00:36:02,788 stuff like I used your toothbrush without telling you, 708 00:36:02,807 --> 00:36:03,751 you know and stuff like that. 709 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:08,307 But you know, on a more serious level, I do think it's like 710 00:36:08,347 --> 00:36:11,393 we've forgotten to just be curious about each other and 711 00:36:11,494 --> 00:36:12,335 nonjudgmental. 712 00:36:12,335 --> 00:36:14,242 You know, like the Ted Lasso quote, you know, be curious, not 713 00:36:14,242 --> 00:36:14,461 judgmental. 714 00:36:14,461 --> 00:36:14,541 I. 715 00:36:14,541 --> 00:36:16,085 And you know, like the Ted Lasso quote, you know, be 716 00:36:16,105 --> 00:36:17,927 curious, not judgmental. 717 00:36:17,927 --> 00:36:22,554 I love that and I hope that we get to a point where that's not 718 00:36:22,614 --> 00:36:24,076 rebellion, right. 719 00:36:24,076 --> 00:36:30,286 You know, like, let's not go there. 720 00:36:30,286 --> 00:36:36,081 Last question for you You've been a lovely guest and really 721 00:36:36,101 --> 00:36:37,782 appreciate you sharing your knowledge and, most importantly, 722 00:36:37,782 --> 00:36:38,344 sharing your time. 723 00:36:38,344 --> 00:36:39,744 How can our listeners connect with you? 724 00:36:39,744 --> 00:36:40,887 How can they learn more? 725 00:36:40,887 --> 00:36:43,989 And you mentioned an app, really appreciate you sharing 726 00:36:44,010 --> 00:36:46,233 your knowledge and, most importantly, sharing your time. 727 00:36:46,233 --> 00:36:47,994 How can our listeners connect with you? 728 00:36:47,994 --> 00:36:48,554 How can they learn more? 729 00:36:48,574 --> 00:36:50,376 Speaker 2: And you mentioned an app. 730 00:36:50,376 --> 00:36:52,260 How can we get our hands on the app and do more of what you're 731 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:52,619 recommending here? 732 00:36:52,619 --> 00:36:58,652 Yeah, so everything that we have is on our website. 733 00:36:58,652 --> 00:37:01,503 So it's azmuthpsychcom, a-z-i-m-u-t-h psychcom, and that 734 00:37:01,503 --> 00:37:03,610 has all the stuff we do in our practice. 735 00:37:03,610 --> 00:37:07,407 It has the values questionnaire with a link to the app, which 736 00:37:07,427 --> 00:37:11,273 I'll talk about in a second, and also some free tools that we 737 00:37:11,313 --> 00:37:11,494 have. 738 00:37:11,494 --> 00:37:14,423 So we have a burnout calculator on there, we have a values 739 00:37:14,463 --> 00:37:17,492 navigator on there, we have a career enmeshment test. 740 00:37:17,492 --> 00:37:20,184 There's also everything that's been in the media. 741 00:37:20,184 --> 00:37:22,208 That's all linked there too. 742 00:37:22,208 --> 00:37:24,313 So that's like our main place. 743 00:37:24,313 --> 00:37:26,423 The app link is there. 744 00:37:26,423 --> 00:37:27,547 It's also on the app store. 745 00:37:27,547 --> 00:37:32,344 It's clearly values journaling and it also has its own website. 746 00:37:32,344 --> 00:37:35,532 If that's easier, it's just called clearlyhqcom. 747 00:37:48,126 --> 00:37:50,728 Speaker 1: It's just called clearlyhqcom Awesome. 748 00:37:50,728 --> 00:37:52,509 I appreciate the practical tools and the help and really 749 00:37:52,528 --> 00:37:56,791 appreciate the focus, really, really helpful and in the really 750 00:37:56,791 --> 00:38:01,434 important aspect for all of us certainly the listeners of this 751 00:38:01,474 --> 00:38:03,454 podcast to to support. 752 00:38:03,454 --> 00:38:05,115 So thank you, jana, for your time. 753 00:38:05,115 --> 00:38:08,177 You've been a lovely guest and have a great rest of your day. 754 00:38:08,998 --> 00:38:09,978 Speaker 2: Thanks, thanks for having me. 755 00:38:15,780 --> 00:38:16,902 Speaker 3: All right, that does it for the rebel HR podcast. 756 00:38:16,902 --> 00:38:17,483 Big thank you to our guests. 757 00:38:17,483 --> 00:38:18,242 That does it for the Rebel HR podcast. 758 00:38:18,242 --> 00:38:18,804 Big thank you to our guests. 759 00:38:18,804 --> 00:38:22,909 Follow us on Facebook at Rebel HR podcast, twitter at Rebel HR 760 00:38:22,949 --> 00:38:26,715 guy, or see our website at rebelhumanresourcescom. 761 00:38:26,715 --> 00:38:30,039 The views and opinions expressed by Rebel HR podcast 762 00:38:30,079 --> 00:38:32,253 are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the 763 00:38:32,273 --> 00:38:36,170 official policy or position of any of the organizations that we 764 00:38:36,170 --> 00:38:36,530 represent. 765 00:38:36,530 --> 00:38:40,105 No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast. 766 00:38:42,068 --> 00:38:42,389 Speaker 2: Baby.