WEBVTT 00:00:03.024 --> 00:00:08.151 This is the Rebel HR podcast, the podcast about all things innovation in the people's space. 00:00:08.151 --> 00:00:09.614 I'm Kyle Rode. 00:00:09.614 --> 00:00:10.595 Let's start the show. 00:00:10.595 --> 00:00:17.303 Welcome back Rebel HR community With us. 00:00:17.303 --> 00:00:19.025 Today we have an amazing guest. 00:00:19.025 --> 00:00:22.289 So excited to jump into the content, we have Dr Jana Koretz. 00:00:22.289 --> 00:00:34.642 She is a clinical psychologist and founder of a firm in Boston who helps support people who are in high pressure careers, and certainly that includes many HR professionals. 00:00:34.642 --> 00:00:36.787 So, jana, thank you so much for joining us today. 00:00:37.509 --> 00:00:39.220 Yeah, thank you for having me, I'm excited. 00:00:40.481 --> 00:00:41.804 Really excited as well. 00:00:41.804 --> 00:00:51.917 This is one of those situations where, before I hit record, we had a wonderful 10 to 15-minute conversation and I went oh shoot, I should have been recording. 00:00:51.917 --> 00:00:53.738 We're going to rehash maybe a little bit. 00:00:53.738 --> 00:00:54.200 I apologize. 00:00:54.200 --> 00:01:08.823 I want to start off with a question that I'm always curious when I talk to a founder or an entrepreneur what motivated you to found a firm that focuses on supporting individuals in high-pressure careers? 00:01:10.849 --> 00:01:12.906 Sure, Well, I guess there's sort of two parts to it. 00:01:12.906 --> 00:01:16.109 First, when I came out of my postdoc, I got a job. 00:01:16.109 --> 00:01:26.001 At the time there were a lot of different smaller group practices in Boston, which is where we are, and so I had known people working on a lot of different ones. 00:01:26.263 --> 00:01:48.388 I had interviewed at some and that was going to be my first job and the more I found out about all these different places, the less I wanted to work there, because it felt very much like a, like you were just sort of a cog in a machine, which I found interesting from, you know, therapy practice perspective, but you know it's where people would go. 00:01:48.599 --> 00:02:02.828 They would just crush you with a caseload that was so high there was no space to do any kind of supervision or you know thoughtful development, and like you were just locked in this office all day, even though there were people around you. 00:02:02.828 --> 00:02:17.700 You see, your people, they were really careful with your productivity and you left and then, the longer you were there, there weren't opportunities for leadership, there weren't opportunities for making more money over time, like there was no opportunity for innovation or doing things differently. 00:02:17.700 --> 00:02:28.786 It was just like this is the way it's done, this is what we're doing, and some of them, even at the time, were doing a lot of things that were, in my opinion, quite sketchy in regards to, like, insurance and insurance billing. 00:02:30.748 --> 00:02:36.247 So basically figured, well, if it doesn't exist, maybe we should make it. 00:02:37.191 --> 00:03:00.423 And so once, that's how that began, that's how I started Asbeth with the idea of of, from a clinician perspective, making it an enjoyable place to work, making it a place where people like to stay, making it a place where people were able to do, more specifically, the kinds of work they want to do more, you know, a place where people weren't overworked so they could actually pay attention to the clients that they have, and so forth. 00:03:00.603 --> 00:03:02.186 And so that's how azimuth began. 00:03:02.186 --> 00:03:29.528 And then, probably a couple of years into our existence, you know, in Boston there are a lot of people in high pressure careers, and what we were noticing is that was pretty much a lot of the reason why people were coming in the first place, and that was a lot of work we were doing was about, kind of the nuances of those different professions, and at some point I just figured we should really, this is what we're doing, this is what we love, this is who's coming. 00:03:29.528 --> 00:03:33.105 Like, we should just do this, this should just be let's focus in on this. 00:03:33.105 --> 00:03:39.026 And so a group of people that don't often get identified as needing services, which I think is interesting. 00:03:39.026 --> 00:03:51.193 And so it was a way in which also to bring people into therapy who might not identify with more medical model of you know, I definitely have this issue and I need this kind of therapy to help me. 00:03:51.774 --> 00:04:19.019 You know, because anyone can use therapy, you don't need a diagnosis, you don't need any of those things, but the model is so medical, which is a whole different story that I think a lot of people, you know that's part of the stigma and also part of why people like hesitate, because they don't realize that, how useful it can be, no matter what, and so this was also a way to allow people to understand that and to come in in a way that felt more comfortable to them and more in line with actually what was going on for them. 00:04:19.060 --> 00:04:37.658 But that was often and is often right about a lot of different things, which is much more, I would say, on the clinical side, about, like communication or relationship issues, anxiety, mood disorders, burnout, like there's all this stuff going on in the bottom because people are really complicated trauma. 00:04:37.658 --> 00:04:41.901 And so then you know you're kind of working on both levels. 00:04:41.901 --> 00:04:43.144 So we know you know what it takes to make partner at a firm. 00:04:43.144 --> 00:04:46.129 We know you know, like we understand, that working less is not really a choice for you right now. 00:04:46.428 --> 00:05:01.288 So let's work within that Creative around solutions because a lot, you know a lot of the advice that people get or have been working on in therapists prior are things that people know about. 00:05:01.288 --> 00:05:06.629 Like, I know I'm supposed to sleep more, but that is not something that I am able to do at this time in my life. 00:05:06.629 --> 00:05:21.471 So, with that in consideration, what are the other more clever and smaller and more innovative things that I can do to help myself within the context of this work environment, and what other things underlying that are contributing to my work difficulties? 00:05:21.471 --> 00:05:24.519 And so we're kind of working in that broader spectrum. 00:05:24.519 --> 00:05:27.971 So that's sort of the origin story of how we got to where we are today. 00:05:29.540 --> 00:05:29.901 I love it. 00:05:29.901 --> 00:05:31.125 I think it's, you know it's. 00:05:31.125 --> 00:05:44.665 I think, first of all, from my standpoint and to get you know, maybe maybe a little personal here like I've, I've gone to therapy for a few years now there was a time where I just didn't. 00:05:44.665 --> 00:05:49.507 It wasn't that I didn't feel like I needed it, I just didn't because it was medical. 00:05:49.507 --> 00:05:54.331 It's like no, I don't have clinical depression, I don't need to go to therapy. 00:05:54.331 --> 00:06:14.507 And then went through a divorce and I'm like, oh shit, Maybe I need some help, Because much of what predicated that divorce it wasn't the divorce itself, it was the years and years of kind of withdrawing from personal relationships, being overwhelmed with work. 00:06:14.528 --> 00:06:26.841 You know there's some childhood traumas and things like that that were playing into the need to overachieve, you know, and all of this stuff you unpack in therapy and you can process and work through it, but we don't necessarily talk about it very openly. 00:06:26.841 --> 00:06:34.062 But the first therapist that I went to was like you need to work less, You're just working too much. 00:06:34.062 --> 00:06:36.290 You need to take some time off, you need to not. 00:06:36.290 --> 00:06:45.146 And it's like you know you don't get it, Like I have to do this, Like this is like this is part of me providing for my family. 00:06:45.146 --> 00:06:46.310 This is part of like this is just the job I of me. 00:06:46.310 --> 00:06:46.696 Providing for my family. 00:06:46.696 --> 00:06:48.095 This is part of like this is just the job I have. 00:06:48.095 --> 00:06:49.536 This is the skills that I have. 00:06:49.536 --> 00:07:04.548 You know, I can't just go, and even if I go to on a retreat or something like that, it it ain't good right like it's and and you know it's it I had to find I ended up finding a practitioner. 00:07:04.588 --> 00:07:34.290 That's been wonderful and I've had significant progress and went through different means and so I appreciate the reflection that, hey, this is not a cookie cutter for everybody and certainly I think there's people in high-pressure careers that for whatever reason reason, just can't and and I think that awareness and acceptance, then you can come up with ideas and solutions that that can work within the paradigm of what that person's dealing with. 00:07:34.290 --> 00:07:35.509 I love that approach. 00:07:36.355 --> 00:07:40.771 Yeah, yeah, and I think the goal is not to like eradicate all stress. 00:07:40.771 --> 00:07:42.386 You know either, which I think is I mean I would love that for everyone. 00:07:42.386 --> 00:07:44.858 However, you know that's, I think people I think you know either, which I think is I mean I would love that for everyone. 00:07:44.858 --> 00:07:50.521 However, you know that's, I think people I think you know we're like people try to get to this work life balance right. 00:07:50.983 --> 00:07:54.560 Whatever that means, yeah, but that's not the human experience, right Like not. 00:07:54.560 --> 00:07:57.067 We're supposed to face stress in our lives. 00:07:57.067 --> 00:07:58.692 That's what life is sometimes. 00:07:59.480 --> 00:08:05.701 Yes, that's how you learn, that's how you gain perspective, it's how you learn to take risk, like it's all these things. 00:08:05.701 --> 00:08:26.961 And so I think when you keep that in mind and you accept that work-life balance should not actually be the goal because it's impossible, then you can come up with a more effective solution set, because you're not aiming for something that is impossible and might not actually be better for anyone ever. 00:08:26.961 --> 00:08:41.807 Anyway, um, and I think that that's kind of new, uh, you know, or more unique to like, sort of how we perceive, you know, because we want people to get to where they want to figure out what's important, get to where they need to be. 00:08:41.807 --> 00:08:49.163 If it's not where they are, not necessarily rush into that or make those changes immediately for a lot of reasons. 00:08:49.163 --> 00:08:55.410 But logistics, like you mentioned, we can't all just quit our jobs and move to the Bahamas and start an ice cream shop. 00:08:57.525 --> 00:09:01.087 That sounds lovely, that sounds great. 00:09:06.162 --> 00:09:19.711 The roadmap to do that is important, which also can build hope and relationships and give space for other things that are really important, you know, for mental health, and that's kind of, I think, the most effective way to do it. 00:09:21.001 --> 00:09:25.390 I love that and I think you know this is one of the things that I know you do a lot of work in. 00:09:25.390 --> 00:09:35.195 I think a lot of times we get into these careers and many times certainly in my sector you kind of fall into it. 00:09:35.195 --> 00:09:43.285 You happen like there's a vacancy, you're good with people, and they're like, hey, you do HR, or you're an accountant and you're doing payroll. 00:09:43.285 --> 00:09:45.700 And then they're like, hey, you do HR, or you're an accountant and you're doing payroll. 00:09:45.700 --> 00:09:47.447 And then they're like, hey, you do HR as well. 00:09:47.447 --> 00:09:49.427 That's such a common story. 00:09:49.427 --> 00:09:55.807 And then you look back at 10, 15, 20 years later and you're like, how did I get here. 00:09:56.609 --> 00:10:05.203 Who am I, what are my values, what do I actually care about and how do I make sure I'm not miserable in my career for the rest of my life? 00:10:05.203 --> 00:10:21.447 And then and then beyond my career and I think certainly I've gone through that, I experienced that a few years ago where you know, you kind of have this, this, this existential crisis of what's my identity Like, what am I without work and what do I actually value. 00:10:21.447 --> 00:10:42.131 So for those of us that are kind of having that point of reflection or struggling with that on a personal level, what advice would you have for those individuals and how can we start to think about getting out of this rat race? 00:10:43.033 --> 00:11:13.605 Yeah, and I think what you're talking about is what we call career enmeshment, when your whole identity kind of becomes wrapped up in your job because, partly because you've spent so much time there and so often actually to your point, what happens this is sort of what brings people in is they lose their job, their company is acquired, they get laid off and they do have this existential moment because they don't have what's so core to them and they haven't touched any of the other baskets you know, so to speak. 00:11:13.605 --> 00:11:14.868 So their eggs are in one basket. 00:11:14.868 --> 00:11:16.681 They don't know what baskets are there. 00:11:16.681 --> 00:11:17.942 Are there any baskets you know? 00:11:17.942 --> 00:11:25.489 Like they just don't know what's what, who they are anymore, and it is an existential problem and it's really scary. 00:11:25.489 --> 00:11:26.861 It's really really scary. 00:11:27.582 --> 00:11:31.381 And also to think back, have I spent my whole life doing something that's important to me? 00:11:31.381 --> 00:11:32.304 What am I doing? 00:11:32.304 --> 00:11:33.147 What am I doing here? 00:11:33.147 --> 00:11:57.451 It's a really big question and in general, I think one solution for that or to start working away from that, is also something that I think is good for everyone, which is kind of trying to discover what your actual values are, because most people have not had the opportunity or really known that they should think about their values. 00:11:57.451 --> 00:12:07.365 They kind of think that they know what they are or they're assumed about those around them or they've ignored them for a really long time for childhood trauma reasons or financial reasons or whatever. 00:12:08.086 --> 00:12:54.909 And then there is a place, like where people sort of arrive, so to speak, and they've checked a lot of boxes, they've made it, and they're so miserable because whatever they're doing has nothing to do with that, what they actually want to be doing, because there's nothing to do what's important to them, um, or like, because there's nothing to do with what's important to them, or maybe there's a slight overlap, right, but for the most part you're spending what like 8, 10, 12, 15 hours a day doing something that really is not in line with your values or is sort of counter to your values, and so you know, thinking about your values is a big task, and I think a lot of times people think it's pretty simple, like, oh well, I know that, like, money is important to me and family is important to me. 00:12:54.909 --> 00:12:58.027 So these are my values, and that's kind of on a surface level. 00:12:58.027 --> 00:12:59.986 Sure, that could be, that could be true. 00:12:59.986 --> 00:13:02.561 But what is it about family, like? 00:13:02.561 --> 00:13:03.866 What is it about the money? 00:13:03.866 --> 00:13:05.975 Is it the power, is it the freedom? 00:13:05.975 --> 00:13:06.840 Is it the security? 00:13:06.940 --> 00:13:22.576 You know there's like more questions and really getting into the nitty gritty, which is a task and it takes a long time, and people don't like that either, because you know we're in an era of quick fixes and I think that's in some ways also people's reservation about therapy in general is there is no time limit. 00:13:22.596 --> 00:13:29.933 It could take forever, and that seems daunting and unpleasant and it can be, but that doesn't mean it's not worth doing. 00:13:29.933 --> 00:13:42.296 And so you know, we actually just came out last week with an app for this because I feel pretty strongly about it where it's an app that helps you do values-based journaling. 00:13:42.296 --> 00:13:54.052 So you take a quiz that we have that pops up with your top three values and then you kind of write down throughout the day and you can rate how in alignment you were with those values or not. 00:13:54.052 --> 00:14:04.729 And then we have some prompt packs which are basically, if people aren't sure what to write, you can click in stuff that I might say to people like one of my clients or something like that, to help people. 00:14:04.729 --> 00:14:20.067 Because I mean personally, to be honest with you, I'm not like a journaling person by nature and I have forced myself to do so for a variety of reasons, but sometimes when I open up like a page or whatever it's on my phone, I'm just what. 00:14:20.067 --> 00:14:21.886 I don't even know what happened today. 00:14:22.259 --> 00:14:24.248 You know, like I don't know what I'm supposed to write about. 00:14:24.740 --> 00:14:28.889 And so that's why we put in the prompts, because I personally sometimes get a little stuck in that. 00:14:28.889 --> 00:14:33.350 But anyway so yeah, yeah, it's like I don't know. 00:14:37.059 --> 00:14:38.363 I'm just trying to make it to dinner time. 00:14:38.383 --> 00:15:00.370 Yeah, so you know, I think really getting into that, because then and then what people find is that they have values that they didn't know that they had, because which also, values can change over time, because you know, life happens and you gain perspective, and then they're like, oh God, I this is so not in alignment with what I'm doing, with my time, and there's this panic and like I should quit right now, but I can't quit. 00:15:00.370 --> 00:15:12.251 But really, what the next step is is to make a plan, you know, make, you know like a very stepwise fashion, because a lot of things do keep people in their jobs, such as finances Right, finances right. 00:15:12.251 --> 00:15:24.366 And if you have a kid who's finishing college and you need to pay for that, then maybe right now is not the time to make that switch, but maybe in three years you'd be more able to make that choice. 00:15:24.366 --> 00:15:25.048 And so what does that look like? 00:15:25.048 --> 00:15:34.106 And then, how do you manage, between now and then, to build your identity, to figure out who you are, to figure out what's important to you and to fill those buckets a little bit, because even that is important. 00:15:34.106 --> 00:15:36.071 I think people love a grand gesture, right? 00:15:36.071 --> 00:15:40.179 They love to change things immensely and do something different. 00:15:40.179 --> 00:15:49.066 But really it doesn't necessarily take that large scale change to feel better, especially if the goal is not to eradicate all of your negative feelings. 00:15:49.066 --> 00:15:56.649 You can still hate work a little bit but then feel so motivated by these things that you're doing outside, even if they're like for bits and pieces of time. 00:15:57.390 --> 00:16:09.971 You know like, for example, we had somebody once who it was really important to them to like help the underserved, and this person was a corporate lawyer at the time and so and could not quit their job. 00:16:10.592 --> 00:16:34.493 And so he decided to start teaching English as a second language on the weekends, just for a couple of hours online, because that brought him a lot of joy and fulfillment in that and it was something that didn't take up too much time and it was manageable and it really helped sort of fuel him and because he had these little pockets of joy not that there wasn't joy before, but now there's more joy. 00:16:34.493 --> 00:16:43.100 Pockets of joy Not that there wasn't joy before, but now there's more joy and it feels you can feel lighter and you know kind of start to get out of the hole and then you have a plan for when it ends. 00:16:43.100 --> 00:16:43.361 You know. 00:16:43.361 --> 00:16:51.921 If you know, you only have to do something for a certain period of time, even if that period of time is longer, you know there's an endpoint and you know where you're going and you're excited about it. 00:16:51.921 --> 00:16:55.426 So that feels a lot different than just being like stuck in a hole at work. 00:16:55.426 --> 00:16:56.147 You know. 00:16:56.807 --> 00:17:02.735 Yeah, yeah, I mean, I can, like you know, you could probably unpack this. 00:17:02.735 --> 00:17:04.845 I'm sure you've got your, your, your thoughts on this. 00:17:04.845 --> 00:17:13.144 But, like, great example, on a personal level, I used to want to be a musician, you know, and now I'm in a human resource. 00:17:13.144 --> 00:17:26.077 I'm now I'm a human resources officer, you know, and it's, and it's it's so far away from like where I started as a, as a child, um, but that's my, that's my passion, and but it's it's interesting, cause I think what you know. 00:17:26.298 --> 00:17:51.689 I love that you said you can hate your job a little bit, because the reality is it, and I would say, like anybody that's in human resources or leader of people, you should hate your job a little bit because you have to fire people, right, like there are aspects of your job that are absolutely like they should make you hate what you're doing in that moment, and if you don't, then there's a problem. 00:17:51.689 --> 00:17:53.846 Right, you should hate terminating people. 00:17:53.846 --> 00:17:54.826 Like that should be the worst thing. 00:17:54.826 --> 00:17:55.250 Like you should wake up dreading that. 00:17:55.250 --> 00:17:55.696 And if you don't, right, you should hate terminating people. 00:17:55.696 --> 00:17:55.901 That should be the worst thing. 00:17:55.901 --> 00:18:00.008 You should wake up dreading that, and if you don't, you've lost some of your humanity. 00:18:00.008 --> 00:18:01.885 That's my perspective. 00:18:04.304 --> 00:18:09.394 But because of that over the years I truly like I'm a good corporate soldier. 00:18:09.394 --> 00:18:12.583 I can do that stuff right For whatever reason. 00:18:12.583 --> 00:18:22.195 I can flip a switch and be extremely effective at being logical and laser focused on corporate objectives. 00:18:22.195 --> 00:18:27.270 But that fights against the soul of who I am. 00:18:27.270 --> 00:18:56.550 The soul of who I am is kind of a creative connector that uses music to do that, and so a couple years ago I kind of got reengaged in that part of my brain and, while I am certainly not going to quit my corporate gig to go play music, I have been able to incorporate music into my life and playing a show tonight, just a one-man show, local, great little local place. 00:18:56.550 --> 00:19:01.946 I'm recording some music, I'm writing songs again, you know, and. 00:19:01.946 --> 00:19:10.737 But what's been interesting is, as I've started to reconnect to that point, the rest of my life has been more enjoyable, right. 00:19:10.836 --> 00:19:27.074 So, even though I still hate aspects of my job and my team can quote me on that if they're listening to this I hate my job sometimes, sorry, but I feel like it's made me a more relatable and a better leader because of that. 00:19:27.074 --> 00:19:34.513 So I do think there's so much inherent truth in that but it's difficult for people to do without guidance. 00:19:34.513 --> 00:19:41.442 Truth than that, but it's difficult for people to do without guidance, right? 00:19:41.442 --> 00:19:50.942 So maybe stepping back and like as a leader of people and a corporate leader, how can we help others who are maybe struggling with this? 00:19:50.942 --> 00:19:55.101 And certainly we're on the front lines of seeing workplace stress A lot of times. 00:19:55.101 --> 00:20:00.511 We're the people that people come to when they are near burnout or breakdown or overwhelmed. 00:20:00.511 --> 00:20:11.020 How can we help them kind of understand some of these principles and kind of get out of this stuck feeling? 00:20:12.604 --> 00:20:13.506 It's a great question. 00:20:13.506 --> 00:20:19.162 I think the first advice is listening, which I know you guys do a lot of anyway. 00:20:19.162 --> 00:20:25.863 But you know people will say if you ask them right what's wrong, they might give you an answer. 00:20:25.863 --> 00:20:36.192 But if you ask them a little bit more and get a little further into it, you realize it's about something else most of the time and that something else is actually the root of the problem. 00:20:36.192 --> 00:20:49.700 And so solving, you know, really inquiring in a way that's helpful, so that you're not putting a Band-Aid on something, instead you're actually trying to heal what's causing the problem, is a great way to go. 00:20:49.700 --> 00:20:54.448 I mean, the thing about that is it does take a lot of time and you have to have relationships with people. 00:20:54.448 --> 00:21:11.874 They can't be afraid of HR, you know, or you know you have to kind of put them at ease and let them have a space where they can say what they need to say, which can sometimes be about other people at work or their boss or CEO or whatever, but oftentimes it's not even about that. 00:21:12.460 --> 00:21:20.750 So I think, really listening and asking a lot of questions, and then people like to be heard anyway and sometimes that's enough to just kind of get through the day. 00:21:20.750 --> 00:21:24.691 It's just to have someone say, hey, you look pretty miserable, like are you all right? 00:21:24.691 --> 00:21:33.833 Because I don't think people ask that question very often and even when I was in grad school I went through a period of time where I was really struggling with a lot of stuff. 00:21:33.833 --> 00:21:38.009 There's a period of time where I was really struggling with a lot of stuff. 00:21:38.009 --> 00:21:39.294 There's a lot of things going on in my personal life. 00:21:39.294 --> 00:21:39.776 I was in an internship. 00:21:39.776 --> 00:21:40.198 That was really hard. 00:21:40.198 --> 00:21:42.766 There was all these things Probably a couple months into that. 00:21:42.766 --> 00:21:48.810 Another thing I mean obviously we're all therapists, but my grad student was like, are you all right? 00:21:48.810 --> 00:21:51.309 And I was like I am not all right. 00:21:51.309 --> 00:21:59.240 Thank you for asking me, and I just kind of also prompted me to do a little more self-reflection of how to help myself and what needs to happen next. 00:21:59.339 --> 00:22:13.951 So I think people like to be seen and heard and that's a really good first step and I think also allowing them or creating and this is hard because it's also a company culture issue but creating a space where it's like OK to take a mental health day. 00:22:13.951 --> 00:22:38.472 And I think that that's not about saying it, because I think and we say all sorts of stuff you know and people, but they need to be able to believe that that's a safe thing to do, and the way that that happens is through, you know, demonstration from leadership and you know leading by relationship and all sorts of other things that are bigger than what you're asking, but, you know, allowing them to know that everyone's a person. 00:22:38.472 --> 00:22:43.170 We all have so much going on in our personal lives and work on top of that. 00:22:43.170 --> 00:22:44.071 We work so hard. 00:22:44.071 --> 00:22:45.134 There's so much here. 00:22:45.134 --> 00:22:46.364 You know it's a lot to carry. 00:22:46.364 --> 00:22:47.528 It's just as a person. 00:22:48.382 --> 00:22:56.904 And then you add on the other kinds of struggles, like trauma or, you know, difficult person at work or not making a promotion or something it's just like a lot. 00:22:56.904 --> 00:23:00.559 Or not making a promotion or something, it's just like a lot. 00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:12.465 So I think just listening, creating a safe space and then teaching people about the things that we're talking about is really helpful, because a lot of people don't know about any of it and that's really eye-opening for them when they come to us. 00:23:19.845 --> 00:23:25.013 Yeah, I think there's so much there that we could take away. 00:23:25.013 --> 00:23:38.589 But in my, my call to action, hr people is like you can't just say it because because there's a lot, there's a lot out there right now where it's like, you know, mental mental health is important and there's all. 00:23:38.589 --> 00:23:46.166 You know, we support our employees with their mental health journeys, but it's one thing to say that and it's another thing to not allow somebody to use PTL. 00:23:47.369 --> 00:23:47.550 Right. 00:23:47.790 --> 00:23:53.530 Right, and that's where I get really kind of pretty passionate about. 00:23:53.530 --> 00:23:58.912 You know our role within our organizations and that is you own this stuff. 00:23:58.912 --> 00:24:06.606 If you say something and you have a policy that directly contradicts that statement, then you have failed as an HR professional. 00:24:06.606 --> 00:24:17.509 Great example we had a corporate management meeting and the theme of the management meeting was psychological safety. 00:24:17.509 --> 00:24:25.041 It was very intentional and there's a ton of research out there amy edmondson is kind of the leader in the research and that's what. 00:24:25.041 --> 00:24:29.780 That was the content that we, we, we shared and reflected around as a leadership team. 00:24:29.780 --> 00:24:33.430 But basically it says like psychologically safe teams win. 00:24:33.430 --> 00:24:35.461 Right, it's as simple as that. 00:24:35.461 --> 00:24:53.084 But from an hr, you can't just say that we want psychological safety and then make people feel threatened at work or feel like if they say the wrong thing, they're going to be on a hit list and fired the next week. 00:24:53.084 --> 00:24:55.707 And so it was funny. 00:24:55.707 --> 00:24:56.708 We had a. 00:24:56.708 --> 00:25:14.472 Then we had a dine-around and we asked everybody to actually write down on, like anonymously, on cards, like real bold lessons for leadership, and it was like people were afraid to write it down. 00:25:14.472 --> 00:25:26.821 And so in my mind I'm like, well, you know what We've got work to do, and so we, we, you know we took the that feedback and we we kind of expanded it, but that's it's like. 00:25:26.821 --> 00:25:27.505 It's stuff like that. 00:25:27.505 --> 00:25:32.027 You like, you have to be honest with yourself Like, are we just saying it or are we actually doing something about it? 00:25:33.060 --> 00:25:39.874 One of the aspects that we touched on this early and we could spend like an entire day talking about this. 00:25:39.874 --> 00:25:47.876 You talked about psychology and mental health being very, very kind of clinical and medically based. 00:25:47.876 --> 00:25:53.265 Right, and I think, as much as we've tried to eliminate the stigma, there is still one out there. 00:25:53.265 --> 00:26:25.630 There is still one out there and certainly in the workplace there's a stigma around people that need to use an employee assistance program or people that need to take a mental health day, and there's still some trepidation out people as we do benefits and things like that. 00:26:25.630 --> 00:26:45.296 How can we make sure that we are preventing a stigma from occurring or giving people a comfortability saying hey, no, I might not have clinical depression, but I am near, near workplace burnout or I I feel like I need a, I need some help. 00:26:45.296 --> 00:26:49.847 How can we help our employees work through some of these things in a way that's not causing stimulus? 00:26:51.211 --> 00:26:53.722 well, I think even just explaining that is a great first step. 00:26:53.722 --> 00:27:03.448 You know, like I think people don't realize that therapy can be used all the time, so you don't necessarily have to have x, y and z. 00:27:03.448 --> 00:27:11.692 And I think part of the stigma too is like sometimes, is you know people's own stuff? 00:27:11.692 --> 00:27:20.784 They're not ready to navigate that yet, but they see people around them and so it's almost like a defense you know against like their own stuff. 00:27:20.784 --> 00:27:27.663 That might be a lot of like putting out that stigma or, um, something like that. 00:27:27.663 --> 00:27:28.727 I'll just leave it at that. 00:27:28.826 --> 00:27:39.109 But um, so I think you know, just telling people, you know you can go to, I mean, people have coaches throughout their whole life for everything right, and you're a kid, like basketball, you've got SAT tutors you have. 00:27:39.109 --> 00:27:43.150 You know, like you have in residency, you've got fellows telling you what to do. 00:27:43.150 --> 00:27:46.329 Like you know, people are not afraid of executive coaches. 00:27:46.329 --> 00:27:53.630 They're not afraid of regular coaches which, by the way, I mean I think there's some great coaches out there, but there's no regulation for coaching. 00:27:53.630 --> 00:28:01.451 So also so like you could spend all this money on somebody who really doesn't have the experience to help you. 00:28:01.451 --> 00:28:09.824 And people aren't afraid of that, but they're afraid of of like other things, and they're afraid of therapy because they don't want to know sometimes what is quote unquote wrong with them. 00:28:10.124 --> 00:28:13.291 But really that's not what the topic is a lot of the time. 00:28:13.291 --> 00:28:30.723 It's about how to manage, it's about how to reach your goals, it's about self-improvement, it's about quality of life, you know, and sometimes that has to do with clinical issues, um and but sometimes it doesn't, or sometimes it does, but you're not ready to do that, so you don't do that and you do other things instead. 00:28:30.723 --> 00:28:33.892 Um, you know, it is self-guided in that way. 00:28:33.892 --> 00:28:40.682 There's no, you can't a therapist, can't really you talk about anything. 00:28:40.702 --> 00:28:46.621 So I think just keeping that in mind and sharing that with employees is helpful To extent people are comfortable. 00:28:46.621 --> 00:29:00.265 I think, sharing personal experiences or people you know who've been to therapy, or you know taking a mental health day, or you know, oh, you should do that because I did it, like six weeks ago, because this thing happened. 00:29:00.265 --> 00:29:09.604 You know anything that's appropriate and it depends also again on the workplace culture, how big your company is, you know what kind of management style, you know all of that. 00:29:09.604 --> 00:29:16.226 But to not just say it but to give an example, you know, like this happens, like somebody else did this the other day. 00:29:16.246 --> 00:29:27.050 Don't, we're not gonna tell you who it is, but you know, because psychologically safe teams do win, because they are productive, they're focused, they feel cared for, they feel heard, they feel seen, they're efficient. 00:29:27.050 --> 00:29:29.163 You're not paying for constant turnover. 00:29:29.163 --> 00:29:42.304 You know hiring and firing and all this, you know it's like it is the way to really succeed and I think a lot of that has to be top down and culture based, which is sort of a separate question or topic rather. 00:29:42.304 --> 00:29:57.987 But I think the more that we can just alert people to the helpfulness and that other people are actually doing this, you know, is good, because people will say, like they don't need a mental health day after their parent died. 00:29:57.987 --> 00:30:00.873 I'm like you have to be out of this office for weeks. 00:30:00.873 --> 00:30:02.055 I don't understand. 00:30:03.915 --> 00:30:09.073 I know it's wild, I think it's interesting. 00:30:09.073 --> 00:30:30.248 Yeah, I totally agree, I don't know it's interesting as a society that, like we, you know we celebrate people like foregoing personal, you know personal needs and you know, for the sake of profitability I mean it's definitely a societal construct. 00:30:30.248 --> 00:30:36.792 You know, I don't think you can blame, you can't blame any single corporation for it or necessarily any single leader for it. 00:30:36.792 --> 00:30:38.967 I think you know we kind of celebrate that right. 00:30:38.967 --> 00:30:39.910 Those are our heroes. 00:30:39.910 --> 00:30:55.569 But I do think we're seeing a little bit of a sea change here where corporations are realizing that, you know they do have to kind of support the whole human. 00:30:55.569 --> 00:31:09.252 You can't I think COVID taught us that right that you can't just keep operating business as usual when people are going through these, these traumatic events or tragic events or or just need need some fricking time to like catch their breath. 00:31:11.661 --> 00:31:15.771 And you know I I think, like from my statement, to the extent that this helps anybody. 00:31:15.771 --> 00:31:29.830 Like I see a therapist usually every other week, but at least once a month and sometimes it's just unpacking the month and it's literally just with privilege. 00:31:29.830 --> 00:31:32.400 So it is truly a safe space. 00:31:32.400 --> 00:31:47.028 I can just talk about all my concerns and hopes and fears and dreams and dreams that aren't coming true or whatever, and sometimes it gets really intense and challenging and sometimes it's kind of surfacy and I feel like I just kind of just unpacked. 00:31:47.028 --> 00:31:48.686 For me it's like going to the gym. 00:31:48.686 --> 00:31:56.209 It's like sometimes you just got to work it out and then I'm better afterwards and I get paid to think. 00:31:56.209 --> 00:32:17.142 So I got to make sure that my brain is operating at as close to 100% capacity as possible and that's how I think about it and I think you know I'm not saying that's the right way to think about it, but I think sharing that we go to therapy is maybe the first step, just like hey, it's okay, right, yeah. 00:32:17.763 --> 00:32:20.261 I love that perspective and I'll also share. 00:32:20.261 --> 00:32:23.592 You know, I mean I've been in therapy since I was like 25. 00:32:23.592 --> 00:32:37.965 I'm not going to tell you how old I am, but that was a really long time ago Mostly with the same person actually, and she's out on leave now since probably December sometime, and I think she's February, march. 00:32:37.965 --> 00:32:38.729 We're resuming. 00:32:38.729 --> 00:33:07.008 But I like feel it in a way that was almost surprising to me, even though I know all of this information where, like, I feel like I have I've bottled up all these things that are happening and some are really hard and serious and about other stuff and some are not, but I'm like I don't have a space to kind of like talk about any of this and I don't like it and it is not making me a better person, it's making things harder for me and a less effective person at work, at home and all that. 00:33:07.008 --> 00:33:09.833 And even you know I'll also share. 00:33:09.893 --> 00:33:33.092 Like a while ago I had, I had some like very traumatic events happen and I know some about trauma because I'm a therapist and so it was just really interesting because I know some about trauma because I'm a therapist and so it was just really interesting because I know all of these things that happen to people right, like flashbacks and cognitive changes and all this, and as it's happening to me, I was almost like surprised by it that I couldn't just like navigate that by myself, because I knew what it was. 00:33:34.637 --> 00:33:37.404 Not to say, I hadn't experienced trauma before, but not in this way. 00:33:37.404 --> 00:33:49.304 And you know, even I was like, well, I off, I go to therapy twice a week now because this is like I'm stuck in this, even though I can see it happening to me, I know what it is. 00:33:49.304 --> 00:33:51.269 It's like I can't help myself. 00:33:51.269 --> 00:34:05.565 And so I think, even when you do have a lot of information, or you know about anxiety or you've read about it and you know about the hierarchy of exposure or whatever doing it and implementing, it is impossible to do on your own, um, even if you know about it. 00:34:05.665 --> 00:34:15.246 So I think that's also something to keep in mind too, is like you can read all you want about it, but it's really hard to do absolutely so. 00:34:15.626 --> 00:34:25.393 Uh with that, I think, um, you know that's a kind of a great but you know a great place to uh, to shift gears and and we're coming to the end of our time together. 00:34:25.393 --> 00:34:27.043 But, like I said before, we hit record. 00:34:27.043 --> 00:34:34.101 I'm like we always get into these conversations and then like, like we're just getting warmed up and then we have to end, you know, the like 30 minute podcast recording. 00:34:34.101 --> 00:34:44.164 So, um with that, I want to want to shift gears and um, to shift gears and I want to ask a couple questions on the Rebel HR flash round. 00:34:44.164 --> 00:34:44.565 Are you ready? 00:34:45.367 --> 00:34:46.150 All right, let's hear it. 00:34:47.099 --> 00:34:50.570 Okay, Question number one where do we need to rebel? 00:34:52.900 --> 00:34:54.242 We were talking about this before. 00:34:54.242 --> 00:35:01.474 I think we need to have a push for civil discourse in every facet of our lives. 00:35:01.474 --> 00:35:03.626 I mean, how can we learn? 00:35:03.626 --> 00:35:09.590 We need to learn from each other, and that's how we, you know, that's how doctors learn to be doctors they learn from each other. 00:35:09.590 --> 00:35:13.210 And so I think we're so afraid of people that are different. 00:35:13.210 --> 00:35:18.018 Now, I think, really embracing that and asking questions like why did you do that, like what is you do that? 00:35:18.018 --> 00:35:25.134 What is important to you, without the judgment and accusatory language, I think is really important. 00:35:26.621 --> 00:35:27.802 Can I make a comment? 00:35:27.802 --> 00:35:37.074 This is kind of like a random tangent on that, but I just learned that there's this TikTok challenge called the no Judgment Challenge and I was hearing this from my 11-year-old and she's like yeah, we did the no Judgment challenge. 00:35:37.074 --> 00:35:41.532 And I was hearing this from my 11 year old and she's like, yeah, we did the no, the no judgment challenge. 00:35:41.532 --> 00:35:51.844 And you say like you say like three things that could be judged or should be judged, Um, and the challenge is for someone to just sit there and listen and not judge. 00:35:51.844 --> 00:35:55.304 You Like that's the challenge and I'm like that's kind of a great for you. 00:35:55.304 --> 00:35:57.315 Like you hear about these stupid dance challenges and stuff. 00:35:57.315 --> 00:36:03.751 You're like you know what I like, that challenge, but it was stuff like I used your toothbrush without telling you, you know and stuff like that. 00:36:04.400 --> 00:36:12.335 But you know, on a more serious level, I do think it's like we've forgotten to just be curious about each other and nonjudgmental. 00:36:12.335 --> 00:36:14.461 You know, like the Ted Lasso quote, you know, be curious, not judgmental. 00:36:14.461 --> 00:36:14.541 I. 00:36:14.541 --> 00:36:17.927 And you know, like the Ted Lasso quote, you know, be curious, not judgmental. 00:36:17.927 --> 00:36:24.076 I love that and I hope that we get to a point where that's not rebellion, right. 00:36:24.076 --> 00:36:30.286 You know, like, let's not go there. 00:36:30.286 --> 00:36:38.344 Last question for you You've been a lovely guest and really appreciate you sharing your knowledge and, most importantly, sharing your time. 00:36:38.344 --> 00:36:39.744 How can our listeners connect with you? 00:36:39.744 --> 00:36:40.887 How can they learn more? 00:36:40.887 --> 00:36:46.233 And you mentioned an app, really appreciate you sharing your knowledge and, most importantly, sharing your time. 00:36:46.233 --> 00:36:47.994 How can our listeners connect with you? 00:36:47.994 --> 00:36:48.554 How can they learn more? 00:36:48.574 --> 00:36:50.376 And you mentioned an app. 00:36:50.376 --> 00:36:52.619 How can we get our hands on the app and do more of what you're recommending here? 00:36:52.619 --> 00:36:58.652 Yeah, so everything that we have is on our website. 00:36:58.652 --> 00:37:03.610 So it's azmuthpsychcom, a-z-i-m-u-t-h psychcom, and that has all the stuff we do in our practice. 00:37:03.610 --> 00:37:11.494 It has the values questionnaire with a link to the app, which I'll talk about in a second, and also some free tools that we have. 00:37:11.494 --> 00:37:17.492 So we have a burnout calculator on there, we have a values navigator on there, we have a career enmeshment test. 00:37:17.492 --> 00:37:20.184 There's also everything that's been in the media. 00:37:20.184 --> 00:37:22.208 That's all linked there too. 00:37:22.208 --> 00:37:24.313 So that's like our main place. 00:37:24.313 --> 00:37:26.423 The app link is there. 00:37:26.423 --> 00:37:27.547 It's also on the app store. 00:37:27.547 --> 00:37:32.344 It's clearly values journaling and it also has its own website. 00:37:32.344 --> 00:37:35.532 If that's easier, it's just called clearlyhqcom. 00:37:48.126 --> 00:37:50.728 It's just called clearlyhqcom Awesome. 00:37:50.728 --> 00:38:03.454 I appreciate the practical tools and the help and really appreciate the focus, really, really helpful and in the really important aspect for all of us certainly the listeners of this podcast to to support. 00:38:03.454 --> 00:38:05.115 So thank you, jana, for your time. 00:38:05.115 --> 00:38:08.177 You've been a lovely guest and have a great rest of your day. 00:38:08.998 --> 00:38:09.978 Thanks, thanks for having me. 00:38:15.780 --> 00:38:16.902 All right, that does it for the rebel HR podcast. 00:38:16.902 --> 00:38:17.483 Big thank you to our guests. 00:38:17.483 --> 00:38:18.242 That does it for the Rebel HR podcast. 00:38:18.242 --> 00:38:18.804 Big thank you to our guests. 00:38:18.804 --> 00:38:26.715 Follow us on Facebook at Rebel HR podcast, twitter at Rebel HR guy, or see our website at rebelhumanresourcescom. 00:38:26.715 --> 00:38:36.530 The views and opinions expressed by Rebel HR podcast are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we represent. 00:38:36.530 --> 00:38:40.105 No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast. 00:38:42.068 --> 00:38:42.389 Baby.