Speaker 1: This is the Rebel HR podcast, the podcast about all things innovation in the people's space.
Speaker 1: I'm Kyle Rode.
Speaker 1: Let's start the show.
Speaker 1: Welcome back Rebel HR community With us.
Speaker 1: Today we have an amazing guest.
Speaker 1: So excited to jump into the content, we have Dr Jana Koretz.
Speaker 1: She is a clinical psychologist and founder of a firm in Boston who helps support people who are in high pressure careers, and certainly that includes many HR professionals.
Speaker 1: So, jana, thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for having me, I'm excited.
Speaker 1: Really excited as well.
Speaker 1: This is one of those situations where, before I hit record, we had a wonderful 10 to 15-minute conversation and I went oh shoot, I should have been recording.
Speaker 1: We're going to rehash maybe a little bit.
Speaker 1: I apologize.
Speaker 1: I want to start off with a question that I'm always curious when I talk to a founder or an entrepreneur what motivated you to found a firm that focuses on supporting individuals in high-pressure careers?
Speaker 2: Sure, Well, I guess there's sort of two parts to it.
Speaker 2: First, when I came out of my postdoc, I got a job.
Speaker 2: At the time there were a lot of different smaller group practices in Boston, which is where we are, and so I had known people working on a lot of different ones.
Speaker 2: I had interviewed at some and that was going to be my first job and the more I found out about all these different places, the less I wanted to work there, because it felt very much like a, like you were just sort of a cog in a machine, which I found interesting from, you know, therapy practice perspective, but you know it's where people would go.
Speaker 2: They would just crush you with a caseload that was so high there was no space to do any kind of supervision or you know thoughtful development, and like you were just locked in this office all day, even though there were people around you.
Speaker 2: You see, your people, they were really careful with your productivity and you left and then, the longer you were there, there weren't opportunities for leadership, there weren't opportunities for making more money over time, like there was no opportunity for innovation or doing things differently.
Speaker 2: It was just like this is the way it's done, this is what we're doing, and some of them, even at the time, were doing a lot of things that were, in my opinion, quite sketchy in regards to, like, insurance and insurance billing.
Speaker 2: So basically figured, well, if it doesn't exist, maybe we should make it.
Speaker 2: And so once, that's how that began, that's how I started Asbeth with the idea of of, from a clinician perspective, making it an enjoyable place to work, making it a place where people like to stay, making it a place where people were able to do, more specifically, the kinds of work they want to do more, you know, a place where people weren't overworked so they could actually pay attention to the clients that they have, and so forth.
Speaker 2: And so that's how azimuth began.
Speaker 2: And then, probably a couple of years into our existence, you know, in Boston there are a lot of people in high pressure careers, and what we were noticing is that was pretty much a lot of the reason why people were coming in the first place, and that was a lot of work we were doing was about, kind of the nuances of those different professions, and at some point I just figured we should really, this is what we're doing, this is what we love, this is who's coming.
Speaker 2: Like, we should just do this, this should just be let's focus in on this.
Speaker 2: And so a group of people that don't often get identified as needing services, which I think is interesting.
Speaker 2: And so it was a way in which also to bring people into therapy who might not identify with more medical model of you know, I definitely have this issue and I need this kind of therapy to help me.
Speaker 2: You know, because anyone can use therapy, you don't need a diagnosis, you don't need any of those things, but the model is so medical, which is a whole different story that I think a lot of people, you know that's part of the stigma and also part of why people like hesitate, because they don't realize that, how useful it can be, no matter what, and so this was also a way to allow people to understand that and to come in in a way that felt more comfortable to them and more in line with actually what was going on for them.
Speaker 2: But that was often and is often right about a lot of different things, which is much more, I would say, on the clinical side, about, like communication or relationship issues, anxiety, mood disorders, burnout, like there's all this stuff going on in the bottom because people are really complicated trauma.
Speaker 2: And so then you know you're kind of working on both levels.
Speaker 2: So we know you know what it takes to make partner at a firm.
Speaker 2: We know you know, like we understand, that working less is not really a choice for you right now.
Speaker 2: So let's work within that Creative around solutions because a lot, you know a lot of the advice that people get or have been working on in therapists prior are things that people know about.
Speaker 2: Like, I know I'm supposed to sleep more, but that is not something that I am able to do at this time in my life.
Speaker 2: So, with that in consideration, what are the other more clever and smaller and more innovative things that I can do to help myself within the context of this work environment, and what other things underlying that are contributing to my work difficulties?
Speaker 2: And so we're kind of working in that broader spectrum.
Speaker 2: So that's sort of the origin story of how we got to where we are today.
Speaker 1: I love it.
Speaker 1: I think it's, you know it's.
Speaker 1: I think, first of all, from my standpoint and to get you know, maybe maybe a little personal here like I've, I've gone to therapy for a few years now there was a time where I just didn't.
Speaker 1: It wasn't that I didn't feel like I needed it, I just didn't because it was medical.
Speaker 1: It's like no, I don't have clinical depression, I don't need to go to therapy.
Speaker 1: And then went through a divorce and I'm like, oh shit, Maybe I need some help, Because much of what predicated that divorce it wasn't the divorce itself, it was the years and years of kind of withdrawing from personal relationships, being overwhelmed with work.
Speaker 1: You know there's some childhood traumas and things like that that were playing into the need to overachieve, you know, and all of this stuff you unpack in therapy and you can process and work through it, but we don't necessarily talk about it very openly.
Speaker 1: But the first therapist that I went to was like you need to work less, You're just working too much.
Speaker 1: You need to take some time off, you need to not.
Speaker 1: And it's like you know you don't get it, Like I have to do this, Like this is like this is part of me providing for my family.
Speaker 1: This is part of like this is just the job I of me.
Speaker 1: Providing for my family.
Speaker 1: This is part of like this is just the job I have.
Speaker 1: This is the skills that I have.
Speaker 1: You know, I can't just go, and even if I go to on a retreat or something like that, it it ain't good right like it's and and you know it's it I had to find I ended up finding a practitioner.
Speaker 1: That's been wonderful and I've had significant progress and went through different means and so I appreciate the reflection that, hey, this is not a cookie cutter for everybody and certainly I think there's people in high-pressure careers that for whatever reason reason, just can't and and I think that awareness and acceptance, then you can come up with ideas and solutions that that can work within the paradigm of what that person's dealing with.
Speaker 1: I love that approach.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and I think the goal is not to like eradicate all stress.
Speaker 2: You know either, which I think is I mean I would love that for everyone.
Speaker 2: However, you know that's, I think people I think you know either, which I think is I mean I would love that for everyone.
Speaker 2: However, you know that's, I think people I think you know we're like people try to get to this work life balance right.
Speaker 1: Whatever that means, yeah, but that's not the human experience, right Like not.
Speaker 1: We're supposed to face stress in our lives.
Speaker 1: That's what life is sometimes.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's how you learn, that's how you gain perspective, it's how you learn to take risk, like it's all these things.
Speaker 2: And so I think when you keep that in mind and you accept that work-life balance should not actually be the goal because it's impossible, then you can come up with a more effective solution set, because you're not aiming for something that is impossible and might not actually be better for anyone ever.
Speaker 2: Anyway, um, and I think that that's kind of new, uh, you know, or more unique to like, sort of how we perceive, you know, because we want people to get to where they want to figure out what's important, get to where they need to be.
Speaker 2: If it's not where they are, not necessarily rush into that or make those changes immediately for a lot of reasons.
Speaker 2: But logistics, like you mentioned, we can't all just quit our jobs and move to the Bahamas and start an ice cream shop.
Speaker 1: That sounds lovely, that sounds great.
Speaker 2: The roadmap to do that is important, which also can build hope and relationships and give space for other things that are really important, you know, for mental health, and that's kind of, I think, the most effective way to do it.
Speaker 1: I love that and I think you know this is one of the things that I know you do a lot of work in.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of times we get into these careers and many times certainly in my sector you kind of fall into it.
Speaker 1: You happen like there's a vacancy, you're good with people, and they're like, hey, you do HR, or you're an accountant and you're doing payroll.
Speaker 1: And then they're like, hey, you do HR, or you're an accountant and you're doing payroll.
Speaker 1: And then they're like, hey, you do HR as well.
Speaker 1: That's such a common story.
Speaker 1: And then you look back at 10, 15, 20 years later and you're like, how did I get here.
Speaker 1: Who am I, what are my values, what do I actually care about and how do I make sure I'm not miserable in my career for the rest of my life?
Speaker 1: And then and then beyond my career and I think certainly I've gone through that, I experienced that a few years ago where you know, you kind of have this, this, this existential crisis of what's my identity Like, what am I without work and what do I actually value.
Speaker 1: So for those of us that are kind of having that point of reflection or struggling with that on a personal level, what advice would you have for those individuals and how can we start to think about getting out of this rat race?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think what you're talking about is what we call career enmeshment, when your whole identity kind of becomes wrapped up in your job because, partly because you've spent so much time there and so often actually to your point, what happens this is sort of what brings people in is they lose their job, their company is acquired, they get laid off and they do have this existential moment because they don't have what's so core to them and they haven't touched any of the other baskets you know, so to speak.
Speaker 2: So their eggs are in one basket.
Speaker 2: They don't know what baskets are there.
Speaker 2: Are there any baskets you know?
Speaker 2: Like they just don't know what's what, who they are anymore, and it is an existential problem and it's really scary.
Speaker 2: It's really really scary.
Speaker 2: And also to think back, have I spent my whole life doing something that's important to me?
Speaker 2: What am I doing?
Speaker 2: What am I doing here?
Speaker 2: It's a really big question and in general, I think one solution for that or to start working away from that, is also something that I think is good for everyone, which is kind of trying to discover what your actual values are, because most people have not had the opportunity or really known that they should think about their values.
Speaker 2: They kind of think that they know what they are or they're assumed about those around them or they've ignored them for a really long time for childhood trauma reasons or financial reasons or whatever.
Speaker 2: And then there is a place, like where people sort of arrive, so to speak, and they've checked a lot of boxes, they've made it, and they're so miserable because whatever they're doing has nothing to do with that, what they actually want to be doing, because there's nothing to do what's important to them, um, or like, because there's nothing to do with what's important to them, or maybe there's a slight overlap, right, but for the most part you're spending what like 8, 10, 12, 15 hours a day doing something that really is not in line with your values or is sort of counter to your values, and so you know, thinking about your values is a big task, and I think a lot of times people think it's pretty simple, like, oh well, I know that, like, money is important to me and family is important to me.
Speaker 2: So these are my values, and that's kind of on a surface level.
Speaker 2: Sure, that could be, that could be true.
Speaker 2: But what is it about family, like?
Speaker 2: What is it about the money?
Speaker 2: Is it the power, is it the freedom?
Speaker 2: Is it the security?
Speaker 2: You know there's like more questions and really getting into the nitty gritty, which is a task and it takes a long time, and people don't like that either, because you know we're in an era of quick fixes and I think that's in some ways also people's reservation about therapy in general is there is no time limit.
Speaker 2: It could take forever, and that seems daunting and unpleasant and it can be, but that doesn't mean it's not worth doing.
Speaker 2: And so you know, we actually just came out last week with an app for this because I feel pretty strongly about it where it's an app that helps you do values-based journaling.
Speaker 2: So you take a quiz that we have that pops up with your top three values and then you kind of write down throughout the day and you can rate how in alignment you were with those values or not.
Speaker 2: And then we have some prompt packs which are basically, if people aren't sure what to write, you can click in stuff that I might say to people like one of my clients or something like that, to help people.
Speaker 2: Because I mean personally, to be honest with you, I'm not like a journaling person by nature and I have forced myself to do so for a variety of reasons, but sometimes when I open up like a page or whatever it's on my phone, I'm just what.
Speaker 2: I don't even know what happened today.
Speaker 3: You know, like I don't know what I'm supposed to write about.
Speaker 2: And so that's why we put in the prompts, because I personally sometimes get a little stuck in that.
Speaker 2: But anyway so yeah, yeah, it's like I don't know.
Speaker 3: I'm just trying to make it to dinner time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know, I think really getting into that, because then and then what people find is that they have values that they didn't know that they had, because which also, values can change over time, because you know, life happens and you gain perspective, and then they're like, oh God, I this is so not in alignment with what I'm doing, with my time, and there's this panic and like I should quit right now, but I can't quit.
Speaker 2: But really, what the next step is is to make a plan, you know, make, you know like a very stepwise fashion, because a lot of things do keep people in their jobs, such as finances Right, finances right.
Speaker 2: And if you have a kid who's finishing college and you need to pay for that, then maybe right now is not the time to make that switch, but maybe in three years you'd be more able to make that choice.
Speaker 2: And so what does that look like?
Speaker 2: And then, how do you manage, between now and then, to build your identity, to figure out who you are, to figure out what's important to you and to fill those buckets a little bit, because even that is important.
Speaker 2: I think people love a grand gesture, right?
Speaker 2: They love to change things immensely and do something different.
Speaker 2: But really it doesn't necessarily take that large scale change to feel better, especially if the goal is not to eradicate all of your negative feelings.
Speaker 2: You can still hate work a little bit but then feel so motivated by these things that you're doing outside, even if they're like for bits and pieces of time.
Speaker 2: You know like, for example, we had somebody once who it was really important to them to like help the underserved, and this person was a corporate lawyer at the time and so and could not quit their job.
Speaker 2: And so he decided to start teaching English as a second language on the weekends, just for a couple of hours online, because that brought him a lot of joy and fulfillment in that and it was something that didn't take up too much time and it was manageable and it really helped sort of fuel him and because he had these little pockets of joy not that there wasn't joy before, but now there's more joy.
Speaker 2: Pockets of joy Not that there wasn't joy before, but now there's more joy and it feels you can feel lighter and you know kind of start to get out of the hole and then you have a plan for when it ends.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 2: If you know, you only have to do something for a certain period of time, even if that period of time is longer, you know there's an endpoint and you know where you're going and you're excited about it.
Speaker 2: So that feels a lot different than just being like stuck in a hole at work.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I can, like you know, you could probably unpack this.
Speaker 1: I'm sure you've got your, your, your thoughts on this.
Speaker 1: But, like, great example, on a personal level, I used to want to be a musician, you know, and now I'm in a human resource.
Speaker 1: I'm now I'm a human resources officer, you know, and it's, and it's it's so far away from like where I started as a, as a child, um, but that's my, that's my passion, and but it's it's interesting, cause I think what you know.
Speaker 1: I love that you said you can hate your job a little bit, because the reality is it, and I would say, like anybody that's in human resources or leader of people, you should hate your job a little bit because you have to fire people, right, like there are aspects of your job that are absolutely like they should make you hate what you're doing in that moment, and if you don't, then there's a problem.
Speaker 1: Right, you should hate terminating people.
Speaker 1: Like that should be the worst thing.
Speaker 1: Like you should wake up dreading that.
Speaker 1: And if you don't, right, you should hate terminating people.
Speaker 1: That should be the worst thing.
Speaker 1: You should wake up dreading that, and if you don't, you've lost some of your humanity.
Speaker 1: That's my perspective.
Speaker 1: But because of that over the years I truly like I'm a good corporate soldier.
Speaker 1: I can do that stuff right For whatever reason.
Speaker 1: I can flip a switch and be extremely effective at being logical and laser focused on corporate objectives.
Speaker 1: But that fights against the soul of who I am.
Speaker 1: The soul of who I am is kind of a creative connector that uses music to do that, and so a couple years ago I kind of got reengaged in that part of my brain and, while I am certainly not going to quit my corporate gig to go play music, I have been able to incorporate music into my life and playing a show tonight, just a one-man show, local, great little local place.
Speaker 1: I'm recording some music, I'm writing songs again, you know, and.
Speaker 1: But what's been interesting is, as I've started to reconnect to that point, the rest of my life has been more enjoyable, right.
Speaker 1: So, even though I still hate aspects of my job and my team can quote me on that if they're listening to this I hate my job sometimes, sorry, but I feel like it's made me a more relatable and a better leader because of that.
Speaker 1: So I do think there's so much inherent truth in that but it's difficult for people to do without guidance.
Speaker 1: Truth than that, but it's difficult for people to do without guidance, right?
Speaker 1: So maybe stepping back and like as a leader of people and a corporate leader, how can we help others who are maybe struggling with this?
Speaker 1: And certainly we're on the front lines of seeing workplace stress A lot of times.
Speaker 1: We're the people that people come to when they are near burnout or breakdown or overwhelmed.
Speaker 1: How can we help them kind of understand some of these principles and kind of get out of this stuck feeling?
Speaker 2: It's a great question.
Speaker 2: I think the first advice is listening, which I know you guys do a lot of anyway.
Speaker 2: But you know people will say if you ask them right what's wrong, they might give you an answer.
Speaker 2: But if you ask them a little bit more and get a little further into it, you realize it's about something else most of the time and that something else is actually the root of the problem.
Speaker 2: And so solving, you know, really inquiring in a way that's helpful, so that you're not putting a Band-Aid on something, instead you're actually trying to heal what's causing the problem, is a great way to go.
Speaker 2: I mean, the thing about that is it does take a lot of time and you have to have relationships with people.
Speaker 2: They can't be afraid of HR, you know, or you know you have to kind of put them at ease and let them have a space where they can say what they need to say, which can sometimes be about other people at work or their boss or CEO or whatever, but oftentimes it's not even about that.
Speaker 2: So I think, really listening and asking a lot of questions, and then people like to be heard anyway and sometimes that's enough to just kind of get through the day.
Speaker 2: It's just to have someone say, hey, you look pretty miserable, like are you all right?
Speaker 2: Because I don't think people ask that question very often and even when I was in grad school I went through a period of time where I was really struggling with a lot of stuff.
Speaker 2: There's a period of time where I was really struggling with a lot of stuff.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of things going on in my personal life.
Speaker 2: I was in an internship.
Speaker 2: That was really hard.
Speaker 2: There was all these things Probably a couple months into that.
Speaker 2: Another thing I mean obviously we're all therapists, but my grad student was like, are you all right?
Speaker 2: And I was like I am not all right.
Speaker 2: Thank you for asking me, and I just kind of also prompted me to do a little more self-reflection of how to help myself and what needs to happen next.
Speaker 2: So I think people like to be seen and heard and that's a really good first step and I think also allowing them or creating and this is hard because it's also a company culture issue but creating a space where it's like OK to take a mental health day.
Speaker 2: And I think that that's not about saying it, because I think and we say all sorts of stuff you know and people, but they need to be able to believe that that's a safe thing to do, and the way that that happens is through, you know, demonstration from leadership and you know leading by relationship and all sorts of other things that are bigger than what you're asking, but, you know, allowing them to know that everyone's a person.
Speaker 2: We all have so much going on in our personal lives and work on top of that.
Speaker 2: We work so hard.
Speaker 2: There's so much here.
Speaker 2: You know it's a lot to carry.
Speaker 2: It's just as a person.
Speaker 2: And then you add on the other kinds of struggles, like trauma or, you know, difficult person at work or not making a promotion or something it's just like a lot.
Speaker 2: Or not making a promotion or something, it's just like a lot.
Speaker 2: So I think just listening, creating a safe space and then teaching people about the things that we're talking about is really helpful, because a lot of people don't know about any of it and that's really eye-opening for them when they come to us.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's so much there that we could take away.
Speaker 1: But in my, my call to action, hr people is like you can't just say it because because there's a lot, there's a lot out there right now where it's like, you know, mental mental health is important and there's all.
Speaker 1: You know, we support our employees with their mental health journeys, but it's one thing to say that and it's another thing to not allow somebody to use PTL.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: Right, and that's where I get really kind of pretty passionate about.
Speaker 1: You know our role within our organizations and that is you own this stuff.
Speaker 1: If you say something and you have a policy that directly contradicts that statement, then you have failed as an HR professional.
Speaker 1: Great example we had a corporate management meeting and the theme of the management meeting was psychological safety.
Speaker 1: It was very intentional and there's a ton of research out there amy edmondson is kind of the leader in the research and that's what.
Speaker 1: That was the content that we, we, we shared and reflected around as a leadership team.
Speaker 1: But basically it says like psychologically safe teams win.
Speaker 1: Right, it's as simple as that.
Speaker 1: But from an hr, you can't just say that we want psychological safety and then make people feel threatened at work or feel like if they say the wrong thing, they're going to be on a hit list and fired the next week.
Speaker 1: And so it was funny.
Speaker 1: We had a.
Speaker 1: Then we had a dine-around and we asked everybody to actually write down on, like anonymously, on cards, like real bold lessons for leadership, and it was like people were afraid to write it down.
Speaker 1: And so in my mind I'm like, well, you know what We've got work to do, and so we, we, you know we took the that feedback and we we kind of expanded it, but that's it's like.
Speaker 1: It's stuff like that.
Speaker 1: You like, you have to be honest with yourself Like, are we just saying it or are we actually doing something about it?
Speaker 1: One of the aspects that we touched on this early and we could spend like an entire day talking about this.
Speaker 1: You talked about psychology and mental health being very, very kind of clinical and medically based.
Speaker 1: Right, and I think, as much as we've tried to eliminate the stigma, there is still one out there.
Speaker 1: There is still one out there and certainly in the workplace there's a stigma around people that need to use an employee assistance program or people that need to take a mental health day, and there's still some trepidation out people as we do benefits and things like that.
Speaker 1: How can we make sure that we are preventing a stigma from occurring or giving people a comfortability saying hey, no, I might not have clinical depression, but I am near, near workplace burnout or I I feel like I need a, I need some help.
Speaker 1: How can we help our employees work through some of these things in a way that's not causing stimulus?
Speaker 2: well, I think even just explaining that is a great first step.
Speaker 2: You know, like I think people don't realize that therapy can be used all the time, so you don't necessarily have to have x, y and z.
Speaker 2: And I think part of the stigma too is like sometimes, is you know people's own stuff?
Speaker 2: They're not ready to navigate that yet, but they see people around them and so it's almost like a defense you know against like their own stuff.
Speaker 2: That might be a lot of like putting out that stigma or, um, something like that.
Speaker 2: I'll just leave it at that.
Speaker 2: But um, so I think you know, just telling people, you know you can go to, I mean, people have coaches throughout their whole life for everything right, and you're a kid, like basketball, you've got SAT tutors you have.
Speaker 2: You know, like you have in residency, you've got fellows telling you what to do.
Speaker 2: Like you know, people are not afraid of executive coaches.
Speaker 2: They're not afraid of regular coaches which, by the way, I mean I think there's some great coaches out there, but there's no regulation for coaching.
Speaker 2: So also so like you could spend all this money on somebody who really doesn't have the experience to help you.
Speaker 2: And people aren't afraid of that, but they're afraid of of like other things, and they're afraid of therapy because they don't want to know sometimes what is quote unquote wrong with them.
Speaker 2: But really that's not what the topic is a lot of the time.
Speaker 2: It's about how to manage, it's about how to reach your goals, it's about self-improvement, it's about quality of life, you know, and sometimes that has to do with clinical issues, um and but sometimes it doesn't, or sometimes it does, but you're not ready to do that, so you don't do that and you do other things instead.
Speaker 2: Um, you know, it is self-guided in that way.
Speaker 2: There's no, you can't a therapist, can't really you talk about anything.
Speaker 2: So I think just keeping that in mind and sharing that with employees is helpful To extent people are comfortable.
Speaker 2: I think, sharing personal experiences or people you know who've been to therapy, or you know taking a mental health day, or you know, oh, you should do that because I did it, like six weeks ago, because this thing happened.
Speaker 2: You know anything that's appropriate and it depends also again on the workplace culture, how big your company is, you know what kind of management style, you know all of that.
Speaker 2: But to not just say it but to give an example, you know, like this happens, like somebody else did this the other day.
Speaker 2: Don't, we're not gonna tell you who it is, but you know, because psychologically safe teams do win, because they are productive, they're focused, they feel cared for, they feel heard, they feel seen, they're efficient.
Speaker 2: You're not paying for constant turnover.
Speaker 2: You know hiring and firing and all this, you know it's like it is the way to really succeed and I think a lot of that has to be top down and culture based, which is sort of a separate question or topic rather.
Speaker 2: But I think the more that we can just alert people to the helpfulness and that other people are actually doing this, you know, is good, because people will say, like they don't need a mental health day after their parent died.
Speaker 2: I'm like you have to be out of this office for weeks.
Speaker 2: I don't understand.
Speaker 1: I know it's wild, I think it's interesting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I totally agree, I don't know it's interesting as a society that, like we, you know we celebrate people like foregoing personal, you know personal needs and you know, for the sake of profitability I mean it's definitely a societal construct.
Speaker 1: You know, I don't think you can blame, you can't blame any single corporation for it or necessarily any single leader for it.
Speaker 1: I think you know we kind of celebrate that right.
Speaker 1: Those are our heroes.
Speaker 1: But I do think we're seeing a little bit of a sea change here where corporations are realizing that, you know they do have to kind of support the whole human.
Speaker 1: You can't I think COVID taught us that right that you can't just keep operating business as usual when people are going through these, these traumatic events or tragic events or or just need need some fricking time to like catch their breath.
Speaker 1: And you know I I think, like from my statement, to the extent that this helps anybody.
Speaker 1: Like I see a therapist usually every other week, but at least once a month and sometimes it's just unpacking the month and it's literally just with privilege.
Speaker 1: So it is truly a safe space.
Speaker 1: I can just talk about all my concerns and hopes and fears and dreams and dreams that aren't coming true or whatever, and sometimes it gets really intense and challenging and sometimes it's kind of surfacy and I feel like I just kind of just unpacked.
Speaker 1: For me it's like going to the gym.
Speaker 1: It's like sometimes you just got to work it out and then I'm better afterwards and I get paid to think.
Speaker 1: So I got to make sure that my brain is operating at as close to 100% capacity as possible and that's how I think about it and I think you know I'm not saying that's the right way to think about it, but I think sharing that we go to therapy is maybe the first step, just like hey, it's okay, right, yeah.
Speaker 2: I love that perspective and I'll also share.
Speaker 2: You know, I mean I've been in therapy since I was like 25.
Speaker 2: I'm not going to tell you how old I am, but that was a really long time ago Mostly with the same person actually, and she's out on leave now since probably December sometime, and I think she's February, march.
Speaker 2: We're resuming.
Speaker 2: But I like feel it in a way that was almost surprising to me, even though I know all of this information where, like, I feel like I have I've bottled up all these things that are happening and some are really hard and serious and about other stuff and some are not, but I'm like I don't have a space to kind of like talk about any of this and I don't like it and it is not making me a better person, it's making things harder for me and a less effective person at work, at home and all that.
Speaker 2: And even you know I'll also share.
Speaker 2: Like a while ago I had, I had some like very traumatic events happen and I know some about trauma because I'm a therapist and so it was just really interesting because I know some about trauma because I'm a therapist and so it was just really interesting because I know all of these things that happen to people right, like flashbacks and cognitive changes and all this, and as it's happening to me, I was almost like surprised by it that I couldn't just like navigate that by myself, because I knew what it was.
Speaker 2: Not to say, I hadn't experienced trauma before, but not in this way.
Speaker 2: And you know, even I was like, well, I off, I go to therapy twice a week now because this is like I'm stuck in this, even though I can see it happening to me, I know what it is.
Speaker 2: It's like I can't help myself.
Speaker 2: And so I think, even when you do have a lot of information, or you know about anxiety or you've read about it and you know about the hierarchy of exposure or whatever doing it and implementing, it is impossible to do on your own, um, even if you know about it.
Speaker 2: So I think that's also something to keep in mind too, is like you can read all you want about it, but it's really hard to do absolutely so.
Speaker 1: Uh with that, I think, um, you know that's a kind of a great but you know a great place to uh, to shift gears and and we're coming to the end of our time together.
Speaker 1: But, like I said before, we hit record.
Speaker 1: I'm like we always get into these conversations and then like, like we're just getting warmed up and then we have to end, you know, the like 30 minute podcast recording.
Speaker 1: So, um with that, I want to want to shift gears and um, to shift gears and I want to ask a couple questions on the Rebel HR flash round.
Speaker 1: Are you ready?
Speaker 2: All right, let's hear it.
Speaker 1: Okay, Question number one where do we need to rebel?
Speaker 2: We were talking about this before.
Speaker 2: I think we need to have a push for civil discourse in every facet of our lives.
Speaker 2: I mean, how can we learn?
Speaker 2: We need to learn from each other, and that's how we, you know, that's how doctors learn to be doctors they learn from each other.
Speaker 2: And so I think we're so afraid of people that are different.
Speaker 2: Now, I think, really embracing that and asking questions like why did you do that, like what is you do that?
Speaker 2: What is important to you, without the judgment and accusatory language, I think is really important.
Speaker 1: Can I make a comment?
Speaker 1: This is kind of like a random tangent on that, but I just learned that there's this TikTok challenge called the no Judgment Challenge and I was hearing this from my 11-year-old and she's like yeah, we did the no Judgment challenge.
Speaker 1: And I was hearing this from my 11 year old and she's like, yeah, we did the no, the no judgment challenge.
Speaker 1: And you say like you say like three things that could be judged or should be judged, Um, and the challenge is for someone to just sit there and listen and not judge.
Speaker 1: You Like that's the challenge and I'm like that's kind of a great for you.
Speaker 1: Like you hear about these stupid dance challenges and stuff.
Speaker 1: You're like you know what I like, that challenge, but it was stuff like I used your toothbrush without telling you, you know and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: But you know, on a more serious level, I do think it's like we've forgotten to just be curious about each other and nonjudgmental.
Speaker 1: You know, like the Ted Lasso quote, you know, be curious, not judgmental.
Speaker 1: I.
Speaker 1: And you know, like the Ted Lasso quote, you know, be curious, not judgmental.
Speaker 1: I love that and I hope that we get to a point where that's not rebellion, right.
Speaker 1: You know, like, let's not go there.
Speaker 1: Last question for you You've been a lovely guest and really appreciate you sharing your knowledge and, most importantly, sharing your time.
Speaker 1: How can our listeners connect with you?
Speaker 1: How can they learn more?
Speaker 1: And you mentioned an app, really appreciate you sharing your knowledge and, most importantly, sharing your time.
Speaker 1: How can our listeners connect with you?
Speaker 1: How can they learn more?
Speaker 2: And you mentioned an app.
Speaker 2: How can we get our hands on the app and do more of what you're recommending here?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so everything that we have is on our website.
Speaker 2: So it's azmuthpsychcom, a-z-i-m-u-t-h psychcom, and that has all the stuff we do in our practice.
Speaker 2: It has the values questionnaire with a link to the app, which I'll talk about in a second, and also some free tools that we have.
Speaker 2: So we have a burnout calculator on there, we have a values navigator on there, we have a career enmeshment test.
Speaker 2: There's also everything that's been in the media.
Speaker 2: That's all linked there too.
Speaker 2: So that's like our main place.
Speaker 2: The app link is there.
Speaker 2: It's also on the app store.
Speaker 2: It's clearly values journaling and it also has its own website.
Speaker 2: If that's easier, it's just called clearlyhqcom.
Speaker 1: It's just called clearlyhqcom Awesome.
Speaker 1: I appreciate the practical tools and the help and really appreciate the focus, really, really helpful and in the really important aspect for all of us certainly the listeners of this podcast to to support.
Speaker 1: So thank you, jana, for your time.
Speaker 1: You've been a lovely guest and have a great rest of your day.
Speaker 2: Thanks, thanks for having me.
Speaker 3: All right, that does it for the rebel HR podcast.
Speaker 3: Big thank you to our guests.
Speaker 3: That does it for the Rebel HR podcast.
Speaker 3: Big thank you to our guests.
Speaker 3: Follow us on Facebook at Rebel HR podcast, twitter at Rebel HR guy, or see our website at rebelhumanresourcescom.
Speaker 3: The views and opinions expressed by Rebel HR podcast are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we represent.
Speaker 3: No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast.
Speaker 2: Baby.