1 00:00:00,180 --> 00:00:03,221 Speaker 1: And oh, by the way, ideas are addictive Human beings 2 00:00:03,221 --> 00:00:03,221 . 3 00:00:03,221 --> 00:00:05,149 Just we love it, we love it. 4 00:00:05,149 --> 00:00:08,009 I'm going to let you and I jam down on how we can solve HR. 5 00:00:08,009 --> 00:00:10,505 We're going to come up with a ton of ideas and we're going to 6 00:00:10,544 --> 00:00:11,127 love what we do. 7 00:00:11,147 --> 00:00:12,108 Speaker 2: It's going to feel good. 8 00:00:12,108 --> 00:00:14,603 It's going to really feel good, so good. 9 00:00:15,420 --> 00:00:18,643 Speaker 3: This is the Rebel HR Podcast, the podcast where we 10 00:00:18,663 --> 00:00:22,211 talk to HR innovators about all things people, leadership. 11 00:00:22,211 --> 00:00:26,862 If you're looking for places to find, about new ways to think 12 00:00:26,884 --> 00:00:28,467 about the world of work, this is the podcast for you. 13 00:00:28,467 --> 00:00:31,742 Please subscribe to your favorite podcast listening 14 00:00:31,783 --> 00:00:33,927 platform today and leave us a review. 15 00:00:33,927 --> 00:00:35,972 Rebel on HR Rebels. 16 00:00:35,972 --> 00:00:39,945 Welcome Rebel HR listeners. 17 00:00:39,945 --> 00:00:41,749 Thank you for joining us for another week. 18 00:00:41,749 --> 00:00:44,280 This one is going to be fun With us. 19 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:45,680 Today we have Andy Binns. 20 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:49,543 He is co-founder of ChangeLogic , a Boston-based strategic 21 00:00:49,603 --> 00:00:50,465 advisory firm. 22 00:00:50,465 --> 00:00:54,648 He works with CEOs, boards, senior teams and tries to help 23 00:00:54,768 --> 00:00:57,350 navigate allite the world with innovation. 24 00:00:57,350 --> 00:01:09,888 He has a guidebook called the Corporate Explorer that helps 25 00:01:10,049 --> 00:01:14,036 with practices that enable managers to go from idea into 26 00:01:14,278 --> 00:01:17,921 action and demonstrates how success is not only possible but 27 00:01:17,921 --> 00:01:23,664 may offer entrenched companies better odds than venture 28 00:01:23,724 --> 00:01:24,986 capital-backed startups. 29 00:01:24,986 --> 00:01:26,768 Thanks for joining us, andy. 30 00:01:27,429 --> 00:01:29,072 Speaker 1: Hi there, carl, very nice to be with you. 31 00:01:29,072 --> 00:01:30,953 Thank you for inviting me on your show. 32 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:38,960 Speaker 3: Well, extremely excited, and it's one of those 33 00:01:38,980 --> 00:01:41,385 things that this topic for me just spoke to me, and when I got 34 00:01:41,385 --> 00:01:45,269 the request to speak with you and I saw some of the work you 35 00:01:45,290 --> 00:01:49,956 were doing, I said yes, we need to talk on the podcast. 36 00:01:49,956 --> 00:01:55,908 So appreciate you joining us today and we are going to start 37 00:01:56,007 --> 00:01:57,432 by talking about change. 38 00:01:57,432 --> 00:02:03,075 So what got you interested in helping organizations understand 39 00:02:03,075 --> 00:02:04,599 how to innovate? 40 00:02:05,740 --> 00:02:07,263 Speaker 1: in helping organizations understand how to 41 00:02:07,283 --> 00:02:07,563 innovate. 42 00:02:07,563 --> 00:02:09,866 Well, you know, I think what got me really interested in this 43 00:02:09,866 --> 00:02:14,230 was I really am a bad employee. 44 00:02:14,230 --> 00:02:24,360 I just hate being inside organizations at some level, and 45 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:26,485 so you know, I think that I wrestle with that issue, and the 46 00:02:26,485 --> 00:02:30,687 one place that things seemed to click for me was when I was 47 00:02:30,788 --> 00:02:31,449 with IBM. 48 00:02:31,449 --> 00:02:38,870 This was 20 years ago, so that means I'd already had 10, 15 49 00:02:38,909 --> 00:02:45,384 years of being a bad employee before I got this one and I got 50 00:02:45,425 --> 00:02:47,229 assigned to work with um. 51 00:02:47,229 --> 00:02:51,588 Ibm had these emerging business opportunities and these were 52 00:02:51,628 --> 00:02:52,871 like new businesses. 53 00:02:52,911 --> 00:02:56,925 The idea was to um to create, from the assets the company had, 54 00:02:56,925 --> 00:02:59,491 some new places that it could explore. 55 00:02:59,491 --> 00:03:04,614 Right, and I was like, okay, I've not, I've not. 56 00:03:04,614 --> 00:03:06,240 I've read stuff about innovation. 57 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:09,389 I had done some stuff in my previous consulting career 58 00:03:09,408 --> 00:03:12,342 around innovation, but this was the moment in which my 59 00:03:12,401 --> 00:03:20,091 imagination fired, because I saw a place where the the rebels, 60 00:03:20,692 --> 00:03:26,640 to use your term could actually live in an organization, to use 61 00:03:26,661 --> 00:03:28,105 your term could actually live in an organization, that there is 62 00:03:28,126 --> 00:03:29,371 a role for those who want to push the boundaries and to take 63 00:03:29,411 --> 00:03:31,161 organizations in different ways, and I just thought it was a 64 00:03:31,641 --> 00:03:35,171 neat combination of innovation in large organizations. 65 00:03:38,423 --> 00:03:40,968 Speaker 3: I love that and you know it's really interesting 66 00:03:41,008 --> 00:03:41,610 about that. 67 00:03:41,610 --> 00:03:43,741 First of all, I love that you're like, yeah, I'm just not 68 00:03:43,756 --> 00:03:44,325 a good employee. 69 00:03:44,325 --> 00:03:45,568 Know what's really interesting about that? 70 00:03:45,568 --> 00:03:47,991 Um, first of all, I love that you're like, yeah, I'm just not 71 00:03:48,010 --> 00:03:48,831 a good employee, um, but I I would. 72 00:03:48,831 --> 00:03:52,216 I might, you know, flip that a little bit and say you know, um, 73 00:03:52,216 --> 00:03:54,788 maybe you're not a good employee in an organization that 74 00:03:54,788 --> 00:03:58,801 doesn't let you be creative and innovative is is that fair? 75 00:03:59,361 --> 00:04:01,805 Speaker 1: well, so, so, so that that may be, but. 76 00:04:01,805 --> 00:04:06,049 But the interesting thing that's embedded in your question 77 00:04:06,049 --> 00:04:11,876 about let you be right is that it's the organization's job to 78 00:04:11,936 --> 00:04:16,064 enable us and I don't think that's very often the recipe of 79 00:04:16,103 --> 00:04:21,951 success right book, corporate Explorer. 80 00:04:21,951 --> 00:04:26,680 How corporations beat startups at the innovation game is that 81 00:04:26,740 --> 00:04:32,331 when we look at examples of really successful innovation in 82 00:04:33,033 --> 00:04:38,151 large corporations, it has at the center a rebel, somebody who 83 00:04:38,151 --> 00:04:41,120 is going to seize an opportunity, seize a problem in 84 00:04:41,139 --> 00:04:42,199 the world they want to solve. 85 00:04:42,199 --> 00:04:46,961 And it's them who take, bring the energy to bring the purpose, 86 00:04:46,961 --> 00:04:49,723 bring the passion to convert that into a business. 87 00:04:49,723 --> 00:04:53,504 And they're very rarely given the opportunity. 88 00:04:53,504 --> 00:04:57,966 Most of them take it Right, and that, for me, is a little bit 89 00:04:58,007 --> 00:04:58,846 of the same story. 90 00:04:58,846 --> 00:05:01,088 So you've got to take these opportunities and, yes, 91 00:05:01,187 --> 00:05:02,728 organizations can enable. 92 00:05:02,728 --> 00:05:06,149 I don't we can talk about how you do that, but I just think 93 00:05:06,189 --> 00:05:08,810 that's an important sort us to build the, you know, the, the 94 00:05:08,831 --> 00:05:28,500 platform for innovation. 95 00:05:28,581 --> 00:05:32,329 Speaker 3: But, um, what it sounds like to me in in what you 96 00:05:32,329 --> 00:05:35,882 just described is it's more about us getting the right 97 00:05:35,983 --> 00:05:41,473 people empowered to do the work and then, and then getting out 98 00:05:41,494 --> 00:05:41,934 of their way. 99 00:05:41,934 --> 00:05:43,324 Am I on the right track there? 100 00:05:43,324 --> 00:05:44,709 I think I think you are. 101 00:05:44,908 --> 00:05:47,446 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that there's a little bit more we can 102 00:05:47,446 --> 00:05:47,605 say. 103 00:05:47,605 --> 00:05:51,423 But but the, the, the. 104 00:05:51,423 --> 00:05:57,391 The notion is that within most organizations and after a while 105 00:05:58,154 --> 00:06:01,815 this isn't true, right, they can get to the point where, where, 106 00:06:01,855 --> 00:06:04,625 where, that you, you have a hard time with this Most 107 00:06:04,665 --> 00:06:06,331 organizations, there are explorers. 108 00:06:06,331 --> 00:06:11,009 There are people whose bias is towards how do I create, create, 109 00:06:11,009 --> 00:06:12,992 create, how do I do new, new, new? 110 00:06:12,992 --> 00:06:16,086 And then there are people who are much more how do I optimize, 111 00:06:16,086 --> 00:06:18,682 how do I bring stability, how do I bring regimentation? 112 00:06:19,684 --> 00:06:23,711 And what you need to do is figure out how you set some 113 00:06:23,870 --> 00:06:27,317 number of those explorers free not all of them, because then 114 00:06:27,338 --> 00:06:31,504 you just create a zoo, right, but allow some of these people 115 00:06:31,564 --> 00:06:36,494 to really drive, give them a license to explore, if you will, 116 00:06:36,494 --> 00:06:40,887 and that is what will secure the sort of innovation outcomes 117 00:06:41,709 --> 00:06:49,362 that many organizations are looking for, innovation outcomes 118 00:06:49,362 --> 00:06:50,567 that many organizations are looking for, and that impulse 119 00:06:50,648 --> 00:06:51,752 that they have is very similar to an entrepreneur. 120 00:06:51,752 --> 00:06:53,259 So some of what they do is different and some of what they 121 00:06:56,649 --> 00:06:57,250 do is the same. 122 00:06:57,250 --> 00:06:59,476 It's a matter of understanding the difference between the two. 123 00:06:59,476 --> 00:07:02,182 There's one other thing, one other bubble I want to burst, 124 00:07:02,262 --> 00:07:08,206 carl, if I may, which I think is important, and I'm afraid I'm 125 00:07:08,226 --> 00:07:14,192 going to blame HR for this one, just for that we're fair game. 126 00:07:14,211 --> 00:07:14,593 Go ahead. 127 00:07:14,593 --> 00:07:16,735 Yeah, yeah, you asked me on your show. 128 00:07:16,735 --> 00:07:24,367 So here is what happened, and I will generalize this point in a 129 00:07:24,367 --> 00:07:24,447 sec. 130 00:07:24,447 --> 00:07:28,800 I'm in Germany in an unnamed large financial services company 131 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:34,771 and I'm with the head of global talent and we're discussing the 132 00:07:34,771 --> 00:07:37,305 work we've done with them to think about how to create an 133 00:07:37,365 --> 00:07:40,980 innovation unit, to explore some opportunities that they see to 134 00:07:41,019 --> 00:07:41,440 go after. 135 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:45,649 And this is maybe my third or fourth visit. 136 00:07:45,649 --> 00:07:49,403 And I say to her so you know, leadership of this unit is 137 00:07:49,463 --> 00:07:50,307 really important. 138 00:07:50,307 --> 00:07:52,031 You know what progress have you made? 139 00:07:52,031 --> 00:07:55,870 Ah, yes, andy, we have come to a solution to this. 140 00:07:55,870 --> 00:08:01,127 We've decided we'll hire from outside because that way, if we 141 00:08:01,226 --> 00:08:02,851 fail, the consequences are less. 142 00:08:02,851 --> 00:08:11,783 Way, if we fail, the consequences are less. 143 00:08:11,783 --> 00:08:13,846 In other words, it won't do any harm to our talent succession 144 00:08:13,865 --> 00:08:16,290 if somebody fails and we have to eject them from the system. 145 00:08:16,350 --> 00:08:21,444 Outsiders have a really hard time leading innovation inside 146 00:08:21,483 --> 00:08:26,271 corporations because they have no social capital, they have no 147 00:08:26,812 --> 00:08:29,904 track record of performance, they don't have any favors they 148 00:08:29,944 --> 00:08:34,740 can call on from other people, and so what we find is that ones 149 00:08:34,740 --> 00:08:38,950 who are really successful at this have a track record, people 150 00:08:38,950 --> 00:08:42,243 know them and when they fail, because we can get onto this 151 00:08:42,283 --> 00:08:46,109 innovation is often about this notion of rapid failing, learn 152 00:08:46,149 --> 00:08:48,952 by testing and so on, that you don't know. 153 00:08:48,952 --> 00:08:50,294 Is it the person or is it the idea? 154 00:08:50,294 --> 00:08:52,967 Did they learn something or is it just because they're not very 155 00:08:52,967 --> 00:08:53,188 good? 156 00:08:53,188 --> 00:08:57,528 But if they're an old timer, there's somebody who has that 157 00:08:57,807 --> 00:09:00,033 track record, then you know to trust them. 158 00:09:00,033 --> 00:09:04,590 This is somebody who they are doing something new and we know 159 00:09:04,610 --> 00:09:05,653 they've done one in the past. 160 00:09:05,653 --> 00:09:09,364 Therefore, we can trust them, and so part of getting this 161 00:09:09,423 --> 00:09:12,370 formula right is actually trusting the people you have 162 00:09:12,532 --> 00:09:12,972 already. 163 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:18,028 It's not about always recruiting in the premier entrepreneurial 164 00:09:18,067 --> 00:09:22,033 talent, or even entrepreneurs in residence is very much in vogue 165 00:09:22,033 --> 00:09:22,575 at the moment. 166 00:09:22,575 --> 00:09:25,048 This can get you some part of the way and it's not. 167 00:09:25,048 --> 00:09:27,745 It's not irrelevant, it's part of the formula. 168 00:09:27,745 --> 00:09:29,729 But you've got. 169 00:09:29,729 --> 00:09:35,489 The corporate explorers are often high social capital, been 170 00:09:35,509 --> 00:09:39,418 in the company a while, but just exploratory, build 171 00:09:39,458 --> 00:09:40,731 relationships, know how to get things done. 172 00:09:40,731 --> 00:09:40,943 And you've got. 173 00:09:40,943 --> 00:09:41,870 And the job is how do you set them free? 174 00:09:41,870 --> 00:09:44,878 Know how to get things done. 175 00:09:46,522 --> 00:09:48,323 Speaker 3: And the job is how do you set them free? 176 00:09:48,323 --> 00:09:52,210 That's really interesting and it does go counter to what so 177 00:09:52,269 --> 00:09:53,692 many organizations do. 178 00:09:53,692 --> 00:10:01,182 Right, it's the well, we need new ideas, or we need to come up 179 00:10:01,182 --> 00:10:02,645 with a new go-to-market strategy, or whatever the 180 00:10:02,767 --> 00:10:06,245 innovation need is, and it's like the immediate default 181 00:10:07,187 --> 00:10:09,845 choice is well, we better go hire from the outside, because 182 00:10:09,865 --> 00:10:12,121 we probably don't have that person inside the organization. 183 00:10:12,121 --> 00:10:15,630 That's the assumption, right, like that's like the base case 184 00:10:15,671 --> 00:10:16,052 assumption. 185 00:10:16,052 --> 00:10:20,208 But what you just described, it's really interesting. 186 00:10:20,208 --> 00:10:23,885 I'm reflecting on innovation in the HR space, which is 187 00:10:24,768 --> 00:10:26,211 obviously one of my favorite things to do. 188 00:10:26,211 --> 00:10:30,586 But a great example in my current organization. 189 00:10:31,366 --> 00:10:34,793 I have been here for just about four years now. 190 00:10:34,793 --> 00:10:41,351 I didn't really start making any traction until about two and 191 00:10:41,351 --> 00:10:45,136 a half years in, and a lot of that had to do with exactly what 192 00:10:45,136 --> 00:10:45,600 you described. 193 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:47,860 I didn't necessarily have any social capital. 194 00:10:47,860 --> 00:10:49,686 I was an unproven resource. 195 00:10:49,686 --> 00:10:52,466 People were like I don't know if I want to give this guy any 196 00:10:52,923 --> 00:10:56,520 any head count or invest, cause I don't know if the direction 197 00:10:56,581 --> 00:10:59,183 that we're going here is is is worth it. 198 00:10:59,183 --> 00:11:01,967 Right, it's like there was like that, and so I didn't have, 199 00:11:02,488 --> 00:11:06,091 really didn't have, many resources, and you know, 200 00:11:06,172 --> 00:11:09,316 fortunately now we're making progress, but it's slow. 201 00:11:09,316 --> 00:11:15,926 It takes a long time, but it's a really interesting point. 202 00:11:16,427 --> 00:11:18,350 Speaker 1: And I've seen that in HR as well. 203 00:11:18,350 --> 00:11:21,774 One of my clients has had a succession of HR leaders. 204 00:11:21,774 --> 00:11:26,217 They're about to get another one and, unfortunately, the 205 00:11:26,258 --> 00:11:30,528 initial reaction to the person coming in will likely be well, 206 00:11:30,688 --> 00:11:34,465 is it worth me spending my time with this person? 207 00:11:34,465 --> 00:11:40,119 Because the last two didn't last either and it's the same 208 00:11:40,158 --> 00:11:40,480 phenomenon. 209 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:46,138 Yeah, and we just have to respect social networks, even in 210 00:11:46,138 --> 00:11:49,392 , you know, modestly sized organizations, right, maybe, 211 00:11:49,432 --> 00:11:53,124 especially in modestly sized organizations, because they look 212 00:11:53,124 --> 00:11:55,950 , and often are, very, you know, friendly and affiliative. 213 00:11:55,950 --> 00:11:57,493 But that that isn't. 214 00:11:57,493 --> 00:11:59,952 People may like you, but that doesn't mean that they're going 215 00:11:59,994 --> 00:12:02,222 to help you or that they're willing to put what they have 216 00:12:02,302 --> 00:12:03,206 now at risk. 217 00:12:03,206 --> 00:12:04,830 That's the challenge. 218 00:12:10,039 --> 00:12:10,321 Speaker 3: Absolutely so. 219 00:12:10,321 --> 00:12:12,005 I think it's you know. 220 00:12:12,005 --> 00:12:14,072 I think one of the really interesting points you made is 221 00:12:14,091 --> 00:12:15,917 we think about you know things like org design and talent 222 00:12:15,937 --> 00:12:18,364 selection and where you know where's the right seat on the 223 00:12:18,403 --> 00:12:21,091 bus for this person was the point that you made about you 224 00:12:21,111 --> 00:12:25,407 know that balance, like the optimizers and the explorersers, 225 00:12:25,407 --> 00:12:28,572 and you know, yeah, if you have too many explorers and it, it 226 00:12:28,613 --> 00:12:31,926 is a zoo, right, it's like a bunch of monkey monkeys swinging 227 00:12:31,926 --> 00:12:34,011 from tree to tree and you're like wait a minute, where's? 228 00:12:34,011 --> 00:12:35,480 Where's the entrance to the zoo ? 229 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:36,841 Again, like how do we get out? 230 00:12:37,903 --> 00:12:41,686 And, uh, so, so, as you, as you were, you know writing this 231 00:12:41,745 --> 00:12:45,928 guidebook andbook and doing your research, and just in your vast 232 00:12:45,928 --> 00:12:50,312 experience with organizations, what tactics have you seen that 233 00:12:50,491 --> 00:12:56,355 work as it relates to how do I structure an organization to 234 00:12:56,756 --> 00:13:00,038 empower the right people and optimize the right roles? 235 00:13:00,519 --> 00:13:01,100 Speaker 1: Good, good, yeah. 236 00:13:01,100 --> 00:13:04,923 So first, we think about innovation as being about three 237 00:13:05,403 --> 00:13:10,285 disciplines ideation, incubation and scaling. 238 00:13:10,285 --> 00:13:12,368 And they're each. 239 00:13:12,368 --> 00:13:17,831 You know they're obviously related and in real life they're 240 00:13:17,831 --> 00:13:19,893 not quite as separate as that makes it sound. 241 00:13:19,893 --> 00:13:23,335 You're often working on scaling even as you're doing ideation, 242 00:13:23,855 --> 00:13:26,356 but for the purposes of understanding, think about them 243 00:13:26,397 --> 00:13:27,538 as three separate disciplines. 244 00:13:27,538 --> 00:13:34,292 And ideation is about understanding unsolved customer 245 00:13:34,331 --> 00:13:34,793 problems. 246 00:13:34,793 --> 00:13:38,947 What are the jobs that they want to do that if you were to 247 00:13:39,008 --> 00:13:43,384 solve for them, you could develop strong customer loyalty 248 00:13:43,566 --> 00:13:44,288 and attraction. 249 00:13:44,288 --> 00:13:47,317 You know you could develop, you know, strong customer loyalty 250 00:13:47,418 --> 00:13:48,059 and attraction. 251 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:54,264 Incubation is about experimenting, using data to 252 00:13:54,283 --> 00:13:55,809 tell you which ideas to invest in and avoiding the trap of 253 00:13:55,870 --> 00:13:57,576 investing ahead of your learning . 254 00:13:57,576 --> 00:13:59,427 So it's one of those great big corporate things. 255 00:13:59,427 --> 00:14:00,932 Let's just spend money on it, right? 256 00:14:00,932 --> 00:14:03,488 Rather than let's move slowly, incrementally, incrementally, 257 00:14:03,589 --> 00:14:04,090 test and learn. 258 00:14:04,090 --> 00:14:07,447 And then scaling is about converting a successful 259 00:14:07,486 --> 00:14:10,881 experiment into revenue, and it's a place where most 260 00:14:11,965 --> 00:14:14,410 corporations or startups for that matter really struggle, 261 00:14:14,671 --> 00:14:14,812 right. 262 00:14:14,812 --> 00:14:17,628 Corporations have particular struggles, which is unfortunate 263 00:14:17,668 --> 00:14:21,662 because they have most of the assets to do the scaling, but we 264 00:14:21,662 --> 00:14:24,649 can talk about that One of the things that. 265 00:14:24,649 --> 00:14:27,845 So, if you've got that sense of idea incubate, scale you're 266 00:14:27,865 --> 00:14:29,249 going to treat each of these differently. 267 00:14:29,870 --> 00:14:33,546 Right Idea is about engaging many people. 268 00:14:33,546 --> 00:14:38,801 It's inside the company, outside the company, deep 269 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:39,783 customer insight. 270 00:14:39,783 --> 00:14:43,491 It's an opportunity to turn the company outside so that you 271 00:14:43,532 --> 00:14:46,448 drive as much outside in innovation, not inside out. 272 00:14:46,448 --> 00:14:49,847 It's not a matter of what you know, what technologies, 273 00:14:49,969 --> 00:14:51,432 processes, products you have. 274 00:14:51,432 --> 00:14:53,246 It's a matter of what problems you solve. 275 00:14:53,246 --> 00:14:58,602 So that's a big piece of why ideation, I think also why CEOs 276 00:14:58,643 --> 00:15:01,149 often bring us back to ideation, because they see that 277 00:15:01,188 --> 00:15:03,113 opportunity to connect us more with customers. 278 00:15:03,113 --> 00:15:09,211 So it's okay to make that a mass involvement opportunity in 279 00:15:09,253 --> 00:15:09,673 a company. 280 00:15:10,740 --> 00:15:11,625 But you've got to select. 281 00:15:11,625 --> 00:15:15,778 Not everything you decide on is something that you're going to 282 00:15:15,818 --> 00:15:16,059 progress. 283 00:15:16,059 --> 00:15:19,452 At some point you've got to say , okay, there's a down select to 284 00:15:19,452 --> 00:15:25,187 a set of opportunities that you're going to then incubate. 285 00:15:25,187 --> 00:15:29,384 Now in the book we talk more about how do you set up ideation 286 00:15:29,384 --> 00:15:33,056 so that that's easy, and we talk about, even in ideation, 287 00:15:33,235 --> 00:15:36,249 narrowing around areas that have the most opportunity and things 288 00:15:36,249 --> 00:15:36,529 like that. 289 00:15:36,529 --> 00:15:38,802 But at some point you're going to make a hard decision and then 290 00:15:38,802 --> 00:15:43,572 you incubate and at this point you start to think about well, 291 00:15:43,980 --> 00:15:44,924 we're ready to invest. 292 00:15:44,924 --> 00:15:48,167 So I'm going to take some of kyle's time and I'm going to 293 00:15:48,488 --> 00:15:50,573 focus him on this innovation, right? 294 00:15:50,573 --> 00:15:52,219 So you start to we. 295 00:15:52,298 --> 00:15:55,966 We often set up um, a sort of a sprint team, like an agile 296 00:15:56,005 --> 00:16:00,721 process, um, and for the first 90 days we've got people 297 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:06,538 sequestered to a team for maybe you of their time to do this and 298 00:16:06,538 --> 00:16:10,386 they're going to go through that first level of validation 299 00:16:10,427 --> 00:16:14,100 of the business and then, after that first 90 days, you're going 300 00:16:14,100 --> 00:16:17,107 to decide are you going to pony up the investment to put people 301 00:16:17,107 --> 00:16:17,970 on 100%? 302 00:16:18,451 --> 00:16:21,687 And at that point you're creating a venture that you're 303 00:16:21,706 --> 00:16:23,552 going to separate away from the core business. 304 00:16:23,552 --> 00:16:27,868 You've got to separate and explore unit from the core 305 00:16:27,888 --> 00:16:28,269 business. 306 00:16:28,269 --> 00:16:30,341 It doesn't have to be often a different building. 307 00:16:30,341 --> 00:16:32,528 Some people do put it in a different building or a 308 00:16:32,548 --> 00:16:36,746 different city but even if it's just on a different floor or if 309 00:16:36,767 --> 00:16:39,701 there's a corner of the building that you can give it to, 310 00:16:40,380 --> 00:16:43,663 because often when you're exploring into new areas, it 311 00:16:43,743 --> 00:16:46,044 needs to work in a different way , have a different culture, 312 00:16:46,125 --> 00:16:48,586 different working practices, because you might be addressing 313 00:16:49,346 --> 00:16:51,528 a different customer set or business model or whatever. 314 00:16:51,528 --> 00:16:55,711 And then the scaling story you're definitely into this as a 315 00:16:55,711 --> 00:16:59,974 separate organization with its own routines and so on, and so 316 00:17:00,014 --> 00:17:04,778 that sort of changes as the innovation matures. 317 00:17:04,778 --> 00:17:06,944 Essentially, is that getting at what you're thinking? 318 00:17:08,124 --> 00:17:11,526 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's very helpful and, I think, just the 319 00:17:11,586 --> 00:17:16,196 systematic way to how innovation works. 320 00:17:16,196 --> 00:17:20,569 It's interesting because a lot of times you hear these stories, 321 00:17:20,569 --> 00:17:23,203 right Like the light bulb moments, and somebody was trying 322 00:17:23,203 --> 00:17:23,324 to. 323 00:17:23,324 --> 00:17:26,929 They was trying to, they were doing something you know at 3M 324 00:17:27,329 --> 00:17:31,000 and stumbled across scotch tape, right, and it was because 325 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:34,034 someone was trying to do some other random project that 326 00:17:34,094 --> 00:17:37,124 absolutely didn't work, but you know they stumbled into it and 327 00:17:37,605 --> 00:17:38,667 and you hear about these. 328 00:17:38,667 --> 00:17:42,002 But I mean, so often we're kind of, we're almost like paralyzed 329 00:17:42,002 --> 00:17:44,809 , like okay, well, how how do I, how do I actually make that 330 00:17:44,849 --> 00:17:45,972 happen in my organization? 331 00:17:45,972 --> 00:17:48,378 Right, like like, how do we, how do we figure out scotch tape 332 00:17:48,378 --> 00:17:48,880 on accident? 333 00:17:49,963 --> 00:17:51,469 Speaker 1: and and and kyle. 334 00:17:51,469 --> 00:17:52,713 I think this may be where you're going. 335 00:17:52,713 --> 00:17:57,365 My reaction is we're solving the wrong problem, right that 336 00:17:57,464 --> 00:18:02,473 that we're solving the how do I get lots of ideas problem, and 337 00:18:02,653 --> 00:18:04,401 and oh, by the way, ideas are addictive. 338 00:18:04,401 --> 00:18:07,884 Human beings just love it, we love it. 339 00:18:07,884 --> 00:18:11,067 I'm going to let you and I jam down on how we can solve HR. 340 00:18:11,067 --> 00:18:13,250 We're going to come up with a ton of ideas and we're going to 341 00:18:13,289 --> 00:18:13,891 love what we do. 342 00:18:14,131 --> 00:18:14,852 Speaker 2: It's going to feel good. 343 00:18:14,852 --> 00:18:16,032 It's going to really feel good. 344 00:18:16,953 --> 00:18:22,038 Speaker 1: So good, but the problem is all about incubation 345 00:18:22,058 --> 00:18:25,569 and scalability and it's not about creativity. 346 00:18:25,569 --> 00:18:27,862 I've got nothing against creativity, I've got nothing 347 00:18:27,902 --> 00:18:32,188 about generating lots of ideas, but really we're focused in the 348 00:18:32,208 --> 00:18:35,017 wrong place, and this is one of the challenges that corporations 349 00:18:35,017 --> 00:18:35,359 get into. 350 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:40,000 So that's why we end up with innovation schemes that just 351 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:45,144 have T-shirts or mugs or big, large-scale events or jamborees 352 00:18:45,525 --> 00:18:51,519 of ideas, rather than doing that committed stuff of actually 353 00:18:51,579 --> 00:18:52,040 innovating. 354 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:56,010 And the energy can't come from the organization alone. 355 00:18:56,010 --> 00:18:57,662 It's got to come from these corporate explorers. 356 00:18:57,662 --> 00:19:00,450 That's why they're so important , because that is what works 357 00:19:00,529 --> 00:19:00,951 externally. 358 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:06,627 You know, venture capitalists rely on great entrepreneurs and 359 00:19:06,648 --> 00:19:10,094 they look for serial entrepreneurs, right, people who 360 00:19:10,094 --> 00:19:12,726 know how to do this, so that it's in their bones to be an 361 00:19:12,787 --> 00:19:16,319 explorer, and and that is what what you see in corporate 362 00:19:16,380 --> 00:19:20,250 explorers as well is people who just have that passion, 363 00:19:20,351 --> 00:19:24,441 commitment and also this may be different to many entrepreneurs 364 00:19:24,740 --> 00:19:25,442 selflessness. 365 00:19:25,442 --> 00:19:28,165 They have to be ready to let other people make them 366 00:19:28,226 --> 00:19:32,872 successful, and so that means sometimes they're less showy, 367 00:19:33,573 --> 00:19:37,805 less it's all about me than we're looking for. 368 00:19:37,805 --> 00:19:41,333 So you might have explorers in your organization you haven't 369 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,989 realized it because they don't make as much noise, but actually 370 00:19:44,989 --> 00:19:47,884 their capacity to lead and their capacity to identify 371 00:19:47,924 --> 00:19:50,743 opportunities may be outstanding , and that's certainly the case 372 00:19:50,763 --> 00:19:52,810 that we see in some of these stories in our book. 373 00:19:54,721 --> 00:19:56,748 Speaker 3: That's a really interesting point and I'm 374 00:19:56,788 --> 00:19:58,102 reflecting so my organization. 375 00:19:58,102 --> 00:20:01,868 We make equipment, manufacturing, equipment capital 376 00:20:01,868 --> 00:20:06,041 , big grinders and things like that, and so we have a lot of 377 00:20:06,102 --> 00:20:07,424 engineers, grinders and things like that, you know. 378 00:20:07,424 --> 00:20:08,747 And so we have a lot of engineers and it's, you know, 379 00:20:08,767 --> 00:20:10,830 mechanical minded engineers, people who are just trying to 380 00:20:10,871 --> 00:20:17,642 figure out okay, how do I make this, how do I make this work a 381 00:20:17,662 --> 00:20:18,727 little bit better, how do I help out a customer? 382 00:20:18,727 --> 00:20:20,192 And and and some of our best innovators, as you described 383 00:20:20,252 --> 00:20:22,320 that, you know I'm I'm thinking through some of the like. 384 00:20:22,701 --> 00:20:26,470 We're talking like, literally, industry changing innovators. 385 00:20:26,470 --> 00:20:31,801 They're super introverted, uh, they're not showing, they would 386 00:20:31,962 --> 00:20:36,532 never take credit for anything, despite all the publications 387 00:20:36,593 --> 00:20:38,122 that prove them wrong. 388 00:20:38,122 --> 00:20:43,430 Yeah, and and but, but they are just, they are churning out 389 00:20:43,990 --> 00:20:48,625 that work and um, to the point that you know, the the industry 390 00:20:48,665 --> 00:20:53,065 looks at them as innovators, not just the organization, and if 391 00:20:53,125 --> 00:20:57,553 we don't incubate those folks and allow them the opportunity 392 00:20:57,573 --> 00:21:04,270 to scale, anybody in the industry would hire them sight 393 00:21:04,330 --> 00:21:07,557 unseen, at whatever salary they asked for, which would not be 394 00:21:07,617 --> 00:21:11,730 much, because they're humble and selfless, and you know, and and 395 00:21:11,730 --> 00:21:12,173 and it's. 396 00:21:12,894 --> 00:21:14,118 It's a really interesting point. 397 00:21:14,118 --> 00:21:17,008 You know, a lot of times we think about these flashy you 398 00:21:17,048 --> 00:21:20,798 know, tesla driving entrepreneurs. 399 00:21:20,798 --> 00:21:22,642 Maybe that's not the right profile. 400 00:21:23,983 --> 00:21:25,105 Speaker 1: That's right, and and and. 401 00:21:25,105 --> 00:21:29,634 Many of these innovation programs involve setting up, um, 402 00:21:29,634 --> 00:21:33,308 you know, high profile innovation labs and so on, which 403 00:21:33,308 --> 00:21:36,740 I think, incidentally, have a role um, but they, they're not 404 00:21:36,799 --> 00:21:37,942 the same as what you just talked about. 405 00:21:38,243 --> 00:21:40,108 Speaker 3: You know, I bet that none of these people had an 406 00:21:40,169 --> 00:21:45,407 innovation lab they had an office with a, with a couple of 407 00:21:45,488 --> 00:21:47,550 greasy parts and an idea, exactly. 408 00:21:50,660 --> 00:21:53,247 Speaker 1: Now sometimes you need to think about how can I do 409 00:21:53,247 --> 00:21:55,152 a dynamic duo right? 410 00:21:55,152 --> 00:21:58,741 So maybe they're so introverted they can't commercialize or 411 00:21:58,761 --> 00:22:01,964 they're not very customer connected and actually if you 412 00:22:02,005 --> 00:22:06,362 look at many successful startups like Yahoo or Google, you 413 00:22:06,402 --> 00:22:07,728 actually see a dynamic duo. 414 00:22:07,728 --> 00:22:10,707 There's an insider and an outsider and sometimes you have 415 00:22:10,727 --> 00:22:13,000 to look at that kind of combination to get the right 416 00:22:13,019 --> 00:22:16,587 sort of corporate explorer effect that you're looking for. 417 00:22:18,290 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 3: Absolutely, and you know, I think it's. 418 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:22,288 This is just really kind of interesting. 419 00:22:22,288 --> 00:22:27,188 I think the thing that is is is is probably my favorite thing 420 00:22:27,228 --> 00:22:28,411 about this conversation is it's. 421 00:22:28,411 --> 00:22:31,265 It's turning so many things on their head that we kind of just 422 00:22:31,325 --> 00:22:34,321 assumed, about innovation, and I think a lot of times we're 423 00:22:34,402 --> 00:22:37,596 really reading, like some of the it's, it's almost like you're 424 00:22:37,656 --> 00:22:39,643 reading the headline without reading the article about 425 00:22:39,683 --> 00:22:43,160 innovation and you just assume like, oh, this person's, this 426 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,804 person's a genius, nobody else could ever figure this out, you 427 00:22:45,864 --> 00:22:50,751 know, and um, or this, this this organization has, you know, has 428 00:22:50,751 --> 00:22:53,923 this figured out because they just they hired the smartest 429 00:22:53,983 --> 00:22:54,265 people. 430 00:22:54,265 --> 00:22:56,049 But you know, there, there's more to it than that. 431 00:22:56,049 --> 00:23:00,306 So, as you were, you know, putting this guidebook together, 432 00:23:00,306 --> 00:23:05,501 um, I've got to believe that you probably um learned quite a 433 00:23:05,582 --> 00:23:08,167 bit and through some of the research process, what were some 434 00:23:08,167 --> 00:23:10,843 of the things that actually surprised you as you were 435 00:23:10,884 --> 00:23:12,388 putting together this resource? 436 00:23:14,363 --> 00:23:16,599 Speaker 1: So one of the things that surprised me in a way is 437 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:21,050 just how many examples of corporate explorers are out 438 00:23:21,090 --> 00:23:21,271 there. 439 00:23:21,271 --> 00:23:24,481 I just, you know we started with the premise from our own 440 00:23:24,501 --> 00:23:27,334 experience, but then the more we looked, the more we found. 441 00:23:27,334 --> 00:23:32,167 And it's interesting, it's kind of like it's because it makes 442 00:23:33,971 --> 00:23:37,730 the statement you know, big company innovates in a new area. 443 00:23:37,730 --> 00:23:44,019 It's just not a headline right, and so we don't see it and 444 00:23:44,059 --> 00:23:48,421 therefore we believe the notion that it doesn't exist Right, and 445 00:23:48,421 --> 00:23:49,041 so we were. 446 00:23:49,041 --> 00:23:51,888 It was extraordinary how many, and how many have actually 447 00:23:51,929 --> 00:23:56,002 turned up since we wrote the book People who reach out to me. 448 00:23:56,083 --> 00:24:00,250 One of the ones I've enjoyed most of all is this lady, Yoki 449 00:24:00,290 --> 00:24:06,566 Matsuoka, at Panasonic, and Yoki was on the founding team for 450 00:24:06,707 --> 00:24:10,733 Nest, the thermostat, now owned by Google. 451 00:24:10,733 --> 00:24:18,373 So she's a serial entrepreneur, crazy smart AI person, mit PhD 452 00:24:18,432 --> 00:24:22,049 and so on, and now she works for Panasonic. 453 00:24:22,049 --> 00:24:27,711 She lived in America for many years, I think since her teenage 454 00:24:27,711 --> 00:24:30,842 years, so she's got Japanese and American, but now she set up 455 00:24:30,842 --> 00:24:34,248 this thing called Yo Labs, working for Panasonic, an 456 00:24:34,288 --> 00:24:38,015 executive officer of the company , creating new ventures for them 457 00:24:38,015 --> 00:24:45,951 , and I was like wow, I had no idea that a big Japanese company 458 00:24:45,951 --> 00:24:50,381 was making those kinds of steps , um uh, and we we've seen it 459 00:24:50,421 --> 00:24:53,287 many other places as well, that sort of so it's just the 460 00:24:53,347 --> 00:24:57,242 surprise uh of the uh of the amount that's out there. 461 00:24:58,807 --> 00:24:59,450 Speaker 3: Yeah, it is. 462 00:24:59,450 --> 00:25:03,579 It is funny because I I started my organ or my career in an 463 00:25:03,641 --> 00:25:08,510 organization with, uh, with 300,000 employees and everything 464 00:25:08,510 --> 00:25:10,241 was a best practice, right, like so. 465 00:25:10,241 --> 00:25:14,191 It's like you literally had a guidebook on oh, how do I what 466 00:25:14,250 --> 00:25:15,961 binder in my office goes on what shelf? 467 00:25:15,961 --> 00:25:16,462 Right, and it was. 468 00:25:16,462 --> 00:25:21,513 It was all about control and you know, don't? 469 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:22,961 you're a cog in the wheel. 470 00:25:22,961 --> 00:25:27,130 Don't step outside of it or you get smushed, you know, and so, 471 00:25:27,170 --> 00:25:30,425 yeah, to me hearing the term, you know, large organization and 472 00:25:30,425 --> 00:25:34,122 innovation, it's kind of like you know it's, it's okay, that's 473 00:25:34,122 --> 00:25:37,394 a buzzword, right, it sounds good, you put it on a recruiting 474 00:25:37,394 --> 00:25:41,143 flyer, but what is it actually like, like to work there, Right? 475 00:25:41,143 --> 00:25:44,528 So so, at those organizations that that have have kind of 476 00:25:44,607 --> 00:25:50,555 figured this out, Do you consider it a? 477 00:25:50,555 --> 00:25:55,598 Is it the ability to spot that talent as they're hiring people, 478 00:25:55,598 --> 00:26:00,118 or do you consider it more of an ability to develop people 479 00:26:00,781 --> 00:26:03,288 that just kind of have this natural inclination? 480 00:26:03,288 --> 00:26:04,471 Any insights there? 481 00:26:05,222 --> 00:26:11,330 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we do need to make this identification 482 00:26:11,330 --> 00:26:14,633 of of talent, probably when they've been recruited I don't 483 00:26:14,653 --> 00:26:17,301 know that you you bake it into a recruitment process necessarily 484 00:26:17,301 --> 00:26:20,309 , but certainly when you've recruited people into the 485 00:26:20,349 --> 00:26:20,631 company. 486 00:26:20,631 --> 00:26:21,820 Are these explorers? 487 00:26:21,820 --> 00:26:23,345 How many explorers have you got ? 488 00:26:23,345 --> 00:26:24,027 And? 489 00:26:24,027 --> 00:26:26,901 And in your talent management system, you know, tag them, be 490 00:26:26,941 --> 00:26:30,884 aware of who they are, and and there are good, um, you know, 491 00:26:30,925 --> 00:26:32,588 tools that will, will tell you this. 492 00:26:32,588 --> 00:26:35,502 So there's one, uh, by a firm called human insight in the 493 00:26:35,542 --> 00:26:35,983 netherlands. 494 00:26:35,983 --> 00:26:39,201 Um, that does a great profile actually of a whole team that 495 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:43,272 says are they exploratory or are they more stability oriented, 496 00:26:43,292 --> 00:26:44,778 and so on. 497 00:26:44,778 --> 00:26:46,944 We talk a lot about that, but it's a good tool, so, so, use 498 00:26:47,005 --> 00:26:47,867 something like that. 499 00:26:48,189 --> 00:26:51,306 There are others out there that will do something similar. 500 00:26:51,306 --> 00:26:54,020 And then I think the other thing you need to do is create 501 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:56,605 these opportunities where they feel they have the license to 502 00:26:56,665 --> 00:26:57,106 explore. 503 00:26:57,106 --> 00:27:04,189 So in one of our clients, it was a particular project they 504 00:27:04,249 --> 00:27:06,915 set up for the internet of things. 505 00:27:06,915 --> 00:27:08,499 It's a technology firm. 506 00:27:08,499 --> 00:27:11,305 They wanted to figure out how they could connect more of their 507 00:27:11,305 --> 00:27:16,163 devices to the cloud and use AI to add value-added services, 508 00:27:16,585 --> 00:27:21,098 and so they just invited people to join a series of teams to go 509 00:27:21,138 --> 00:27:25,605 explore those opportunities and set up processes like that, but 510 00:27:25,664 --> 00:27:32,231 processes that have a clear decision-making approach tied to 511 00:27:32,231 --> 00:27:36,136 them, so you don't get into the zoo with ideas that never end. 512 00:27:37,279 --> 00:27:41,327 And so you're going to do identification of the explorers 513 00:27:41,828 --> 00:27:44,453 and we're going to do, I'm going to have a license to explore 514 00:27:45,079 --> 00:27:48,469 and I'm going to have some way of picking the winners out of 515 00:27:48,509 --> 00:27:52,025 that process and then separating them out because, as you say, 516 00:27:52,546 --> 00:27:57,482 this core business or exploit business operating system will 517 00:27:57,522 --> 00:28:01,695 kill them unless they've got a separate explore business system 518 00:28:01,695 --> 00:28:01,695 . 519 00:28:01,695 --> 00:28:03,922 They need to have some separation. 520 00:28:03,922 --> 00:28:05,586 And this is, this is the. 521 00:28:05,586 --> 00:28:08,712 You know, one of the two or three biggest things that the 522 00:28:08,799 --> 00:28:14,089 organization can do to make this work is create that separation 523 00:28:14,510 --> 00:28:18,123 and allow them to operate in a different way, be measured 524 00:28:18,182 --> 00:28:18,765 differently. 525 00:28:18,765 --> 00:28:22,673 Not on you know the lag, outcome, results of revenue and 526 00:28:22,859 --> 00:28:25,784 customer adoption, but on you know how many milestones have 527 00:28:25,804 --> 00:28:27,086 they hit, what have they learned ? 528 00:28:27,086 --> 00:28:28,667 Customer adoption but on you know how many milestones have 529 00:28:28,689 --> 00:28:30,872 they hit, what have they learned , how close are they to to the 530 00:28:30,892 --> 00:28:33,515 sort of indicators that they're, that they're being successful? 531 00:28:33,515 --> 00:28:39,624 And if you can do that piece right then then you know you'll 532 00:28:39,644 --> 00:28:40,727 be a long way forward to empowering your explorers. 533 00:28:40,747 --> 00:28:41,809 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's really interesting. 534 00:28:41,809 --> 00:28:44,884 You know, what's interesting about that is it's the, it's the 535 00:28:44,884 --> 00:28:48,471 same idea as the large organization, who is very 536 00:28:48,531 --> 00:28:52,215 structured, has, but it's putting that structure into a 537 00:28:52,376 --> 00:28:57,692 format that actually fosters the exploratory success. 538 00:28:57,692 --> 00:29:01,125 Right, it's that we always talk , we talk about KPIs all the 539 00:29:01,165 --> 00:29:04,769 time, right, and it's always quality, delivery on time, et 540 00:29:04,829 --> 00:29:05,111 cetera. 541 00:29:05,111 --> 00:29:09,882 And but when you're talking about innovation, you know, yeah 542 00:29:09,882 --> 00:29:13,550 , um, I can't remember the organization now, but you know, 543 00:29:13,590 --> 00:29:17,046 I know the organization that that actually tracks how much 544 00:29:17,406 --> 00:29:18,628 failure do you have? 545 00:29:18,628 --> 00:29:19,550 Um. 546 00:29:19,692 --> 00:29:23,484 I think it's, I think it's um, I think it's Mars that they 547 00:29:23,526 --> 00:29:24,287 actually track. 548 00:29:24,287 --> 00:29:29,064 You know you have to have so many failures this month or 549 00:29:29,084 --> 00:29:29,948 you're not successful. 550 00:29:31,721 --> 00:29:33,625 Speaker 1: Well you must be sandbagging right. 551 00:29:33,625 --> 00:29:36,451 If you never fail, it's because you're too safe. 552 00:29:36,712 --> 00:29:37,374 Speaker 3: Yeah. 553 00:29:37,374 --> 00:29:38,681 Right. 554 00:29:38,681 --> 00:29:45,056 Yeah, so really, really fascinating and and I think you 555 00:29:45,076 --> 00:29:48,026 know from my standpoint, I'm just thinking geez, I don't know 556 00:29:48,026 --> 00:29:48,026 . 557 00:29:48,140 --> 00:29:50,440 I don't know that we do a good enough job with that, right, you 558 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:54,470 know we're still trying to fit our explorers into the same box 559 00:29:54,549 --> 00:29:55,593 as everybody else. 560 00:29:55,593 --> 00:29:59,647 You know, one of the things that I think through is, you 561 00:29:59,688 --> 00:30:03,881 know, compensation and incentive programs, and so we're trying 562 00:30:03,901 --> 00:30:08,767 to figure out right now what is an incentive program that makes 563 00:30:08,826 --> 00:30:11,890 sense, that is controllable, that makes sense but also allows 564 00:30:11,890 --> 00:30:15,094 for the you know, the kind of the entrepreneurial flexibility 565 00:30:15,153 --> 00:30:20,084 that we need to innovate so what are your thoughts there? 566 00:30:20,203 --> 00:30:28,338 Speaker 1: on that A chapter in our book is around rewards and 567 00:30:28,378 --> 00:30:33,404 incentives, and so there's an assumption again that the best 568 00:30:33,444 --> 00:30:36,708 way to get corporate explorers in your organization is to 569 00:30:36,807 --> 00:30:42,093 figure out how to pay them in a way that reflects what an 570 00:30:42,173 --> 00:30:43,273 entrepreneur might get. 571 00:30:43,273 --> 00:30:50,502 Yeah, right, and, and you know, in some cases that's led to 572 00:30:50,564 --> 00:30:56,310 companies actually spinning out a company with employees in 573 00:30:57,055 --> 00:31:00,752 Right and then buying them back again and having them operate in 574 00:31:00,752 --> 00:31:01,174 the company. 575 00:31:01,715 --> 00:31:04,118 All that meant is that suddenly you're sitting next to a 576 00:31:04,179 --> 00:31:08,645 millionaire and you know that didn't really help employee 577 00:31:08,685 --> 00:31:15,166 engagement or or could be more, all reducing right, and you know 578 00:31:15,166 --> 00:31:17,777 , the funny thing is that all of the really successful explorers 579 00:31:17,777 --> 00:31:20,587 that we talk about in the book like, uh, jim peck at lexus 580 00:31:20,647 --> 00:31:24,517 nexus, right with an ohio company, right, uh, and they 581 00:31:24,557 --> 00:31:28,339 built this um leNexis risk solutions. 582 00:31:28,980 --> 00:31:32,522 Or we talk about Christian Kirtisch at Unica Insurance in 583 00:31:33,223 --> 00:31:37,827 Hungary and now Austria, or Kevin Carlin at Analog Devices, 584 00:31:37,988 --> 00:31:41,611 creating this condition-based monitoring business they didn't 585 00:31:41,691 --> 00:31:42,991 have any special incentives. 586 00:31:42,991 --> 00:31:49,545 Yes, they benefited personally, and Jim is now on his third gig 587 00:31:49,545 --> 00:31:56,878 as a CEO, right, so you know, their careers grew. 588 00:31:56,878 --> 00:31:58,086 They've done well, you know, hopefully financially as well, 589 00:31:58,105 --> 00:31:59,251 but there was no special incentive scheme to allow them 590 00:31:59,292 --> 00:31:59,674 to do that. 591 00:31:59,674 --> 00:32:01,519 I think there are some modifications you can make, 592 00:32:01,598 --> 00:32:05,227 maybe to to put them on longer term incentives rather than 593 00:32:05,307 --> 00:32:10,537 anything that's shorter term incentives rather than anything 594 00:32:10,557 --> 00:32:10,958 that's shorter term. 595 00:32:10,958 --> 00:32:12,742 But this sort of shadow stock and all these other kinds of 596 00:32:12,762 --> 00:32:14,106 ways of giving special incentives, I think you know 597 00:32:14,126 --> 00:32:16,778 could lead to some very unfortunate outcomes and there's 598 00:32:16,778 --> 00:32:18,001 no evidence that they're needed . 599 00:32:18,001 --> 00:32:23,001 What's needed is, you know this , giving them the license, 600 00:32:23,303 --> 00:32:25,007 putting them in a position that they can succeed. 601 00:32:25,994 --> 00:32:29,781 Speaker 3: You know, I think that's really interesting and it 602 00:32:29,781 --> 00:32:34,731 reminds me of you know all the research around incentives. 603 00:32:34,731 --> 00:32:37,857 You know especially monetary incentives or you know 604 00:32:38,779 --> 00:32:39,803 short-term incentives. 605 00:32:39,803 --> 00:32:43,397 You know that a lot of times we put this goal in place or this 606 00:32:43,577 --> 00:32:47,488 metric and we think, okay, if this metric is achieved, here's 607 00:32:47,528 --> 00:32:51,824 the incentive and that is going to impact human behavior in a 608 00:32:51,943 --> 00:32:54,249 positive way, because this is a driver. 609 00:32:54,249 --> 00:32:59,820 But I can only assume that in your research and in your work 610 00:32:59,861 --> 00:33:04,086 with corporate explorers, that many of them are probably not as 611 00:33:04,086 --> 00:33:08,510 driven by money, but they're more driven by the opportunity 612 00:33:08,530 --> 00:33:11,653 to make a change or make an impact or innovate. 613 00:33:11,934 --> 00:33:12,255 Speaker 1: That's right. 614 00:33:12,255 --> 00:33:16,805 I mean one of the corporate explorers that we talk about. 615 00:33:16,805 --> 00:33:18,307 He had this idea. 616 00:33:18,307 --> 00:33:20,884 So this is Christian Curtis in Hungary. 617 00:33:20,884 --> 00:33:25,266 He had this idea for an entirely new insurance business 618 00:33:25,306 --> 00:33:29,544 model and in the book we tell the story of how he gets 619 00:33:29,584 --> 00:33:31,819 agreement from his managers to go forward with it. 620 00:33:31,819 --> 00:33:33,866 But he also took it to venture capitalists. 621 00:33:33,866 --> 00:33:37,941 He had two firms ready to back him to spin it out as his own 622 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:43,096 firm, and he makes the choice to stay inside, knowing that the 623 00:33:43,135 --> 00:33:44,538 financial rewards would be different. 624 00:33:45,259 --> 00:33:49,327 But it's about his tolerance of risk, the sorts of risks he 625 00:33:49,367 --> 00:33:49,996 wants to take. 626 00:33:49,996 --> 00:33:51,460 Right, we often miss. 627 00:33:51,460 --> 00:33:53,846 We think of risk as just being one kind of risk. 628 00:33:53,846 --> 00:33:56,762 There's lots of different risks we take, and he was willing to 629 00:33:56,803 --> 00:33:59,731 take the risk of moving. 630 00:33:59,731 --> 00:34:03,124 You know being unpopular with his colleagues, right. 631 00:34:03,223 --> 00:34:06,556 But he wanted to stay within a corporate environment because he 632 00:34:06,556 --> 00:34:10,976 liked the assets and the ability to get things done and 633 00:34:11,016 --> 00:34:11,639 he liked the people. 634 00:34:11,639 --> 00:34:15,655 He's a part of a system he actually likes where he is and 635 00:34:15,675 --> 00:34:16,938 the people that he's with. 636 00:34:16,938 --> 00:34:22,994 He's a part of that community, and so for him the finance 637 00:34:23,034 --> 00:34:23,876 wasn't important. 638 00:34:23,876 --> 00:34:26,922 Well, it wasn't as important. 639 00:34:26,922 --> 00:34:30,389 I'm sure he cares about money, um, but what mattered was that 640 00:34:30,434 --> 00:34:33,148 he could do this and reinvent his own firm, because he's a 641 00:34:33,188 --> 00:34:34,695 part of that firm, he's a part of that community. 642 00:34:34,695 --> 00:34:36,943 It matters to him, it's part of his values to be there. 643 00:34:36,943 --> 00:34:37,824 It's part of his value. 644 00:34:37,824 --> 00:34:40,603 He did this from hungary, but this is now moving across europe 645 00:34:40,603 --> 00:34:44,335 and it matters to him to be a proud hungarian as well. 646 00:34:44,335 --> 00:34:47,824 You know, and, and, and the same is true of you know, in in 647 00:34:47,884 --> 00:34:49,067 ohio, I'm sure you know. 648 00:34:49,067 --> 00:34:51,880 It's just like what the difference you make to your 649 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:55,387 community, to your city, to your company, actually, for some 650 00:34:55,454 --> 00:34:57,563 folks, is a big motivator in all of this. 651 00:34:58,005 --> 00:34:59,652 Speaker 3: Yeah, just take a look at how many people wear 652 00:34:59,692 --> 00:35:03,260 like college football teams on their yes, on their clothes, 653 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:08,496 right, sometimes that, sometimes that drive is is as important, 654 00:35:08,797 --> 00:35:12,161 um, or or very important, yes, so I do want to talk. 655 00:35:12,161 --> 00:35:15,215 I have one more question and kind of in the same vein, and I 656 00:35:15,275 --> 00:35:22,166 think it's about organizations who are changing rapidly and 657 00:35:22,226 --> 00:35:24,510 becoming more corporate. 658 00:35:24,510 --> 00:35:28,936 So going through a growth journey corporate, so you know, 659 00:35:28,976 --> 00:35:30,699 going through a growth journey and and, and you know, naturally 660 00:35:30,699 --> 00:35:33,184 when you get bigger, you start to put in more stuff, more 661 00:35:33,244 --> 00:35:37,657 bureaucracy, more controls, more you know more of a corporate 662 00:35:37,717 --> 00:35:41,184 mass to make sure that things are checking and out and 663 00:35:41,224 --> 00:35:41,485 everything. 664 00:35:41,485 --> 00:35:47,929 So so how, how do organizations retain what got them there, 665 00:35:48,009 --> 00:35:51,199 that entrepreneurial edge, that innovative spirit? 666 00:35:51,199 --> 00:35:51,659 You know what? 667 00:35:51,659 --> 00:35:55,532 What are the strategies to make sure you don't lose your kind 668 00:35:55,572 --> 00:35:57,237 of your core purpose there? 669 00:35:58,039 --> 00:35:58,400 Speaker 1: this is. 670 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:00,686 This is really important, carl and and, and. 671 00:36:00,686 --> 00:36:02,532 We've been um. 672 00:36:02,532 --> 00:36:05,782 We've consulted to a couple of firms that you know we would 673 00:36:05,822 --> 00:36:09,596 call unicorns, and you know they've both gone public in, in, 674 00:36:09,596 --> 00:36:12,802 uh, in the last um, in the last year, through, you know, the 675 00:36:12,822 --> 00:36:17,657 SPAC route to going public and and and it's exactly the story. 676 00:36:18,300 --> 00:36:19,663 We've always been entrepreneurial. 677 00:36:19,663 --> 00:36:23,858 We're now, you know, um, one of them a billion dollars in value 678 00:36:23,858 --> 00:36:27,824 in, in revenue as well as in value, and more and more value, 679 00:36:28,704 --> 00:36:32,617 and um, and and there's new things we want to do, but as we 680 00:36:32,677 --> 00:36:35,443 started to try to do them, we struggled, we couldn't do the 681 00:36:35,463 --> 00:36:39,940 thing, and and it comes back down to the founding team, right 682 00:36:39,940 --> 00:36:39,940 ? 683 00:36:39,940 --> 00:36:44,889 So in both of these stories, what we find is that the 684 00:36:45,576 --> 00:36:49,907 entrepreneur that started it didn't have a system for 685 00:36:49,987 --> 00:36:55,001 replicating what he did right, and it is both he and these 686 00:36:55,083 --> 00:37:01,547 instances and that their response was to want to continue 687 00:37:01,547 --> 00:37:05,304 to control as much as possible, on the grounds that you know 688 00:37:05,355 --> 00:37:07,996 they're the smartest people in the room, right, and they 689 00:37:08,056 --> 00:37:11,463 structured the organization and its innovation in such a way 690 00:37:11,762 --> 00:37:13,246 that everything came back to them. 691 00:37:13,246 --> 00:37:18,862 Contrast that with jeff bezos right, maybe not our poster 692 00:37:18,882 --> 00:37:22,809 child and everything he does have a spaceship. 693 00:37:23,248 --> 00:37:27,416 He does have a spaceship, yeah yeah, corporate explorer how to 694 00:37:27,498 --> 00:37:29,639 innovate without the spaceship that's what I should have called 695 00:37:29,639 --> 00:37:29,699 it. 696 00:37:29,699 --> 00:37:34,961 But Bezos has a recipe, right. 697 00:37:34,961 --> 00:37:39,846 He has a everybody gets the right to propose new ideas. 698 00:37:39,846 --> 00:37:44,869 And he's got this PR FAQ system one page press release, what 699 00:37:44,909 --> 00:37:48,891 the customers get out of my innovation FAQ, frequently asked 700 00:37:48,891 --> 00:37:52,177 questions, my backup as to the kinds of questions you might 701 00:37:52,197 --> 00:37:55,346 have about how we're going to get it done right System for how 702 00:37:55,346 --> 00:38:00,128 that can get proposed, and if you have an idea that people 703 00:38:00,208 --> 00:38:02,876 like, okay, well, I'll give you a two pizza team. 704 00:38:03,056 --> 00:38:06,161 In other words, only so many people can be fed by two pizzas. 705 00:38:06,161 --> 00:38:11,748 Right To go, work that up into an MVP and we'll take it into 706 00:38:11,789 --> 00:38:12,670 trial and find out. 707 00:38:12,670 --> 00:38:14,501 This is the incubate piece that I talked about. 708 00:38:14,501 --> 00:38:18,422 And then, when he scales, Amazon has all these separate 709 00:38:18,523 --> 00:38:22,659 units that operate with some high degree of autonomy, but 710 00:38:22,699 --> 00:38:26,141 they're all linked by two things they're linked by APIs, so 711 00:38:26,282 --> 00:38:29,976 everything is interoperable, and secondly, by a management 712 00:38:29,996 --> 00:38:33,559 system that is consistent, so all of their performance is 713 00:38:33,599 --> 00:38:35,900 transparent and the comparison to others is transparent. 714 00:38:35,900 --> 00:38:40,485 Personality, or do I put in place some minimal system that 715 00:38:40,505 --> 00:38:50,958 allows ideas to come up and give them the autonomy without 716 00:38:51,039 --> 00:38:54,947 sacrificing the access to the assets of the core business, if 717 00:38:54,987 --> 00:38:55,228 you will. 718 00:38:55,228 --> 00:38:56,818 So does that make sense? 719 00:38:56,818 --> 00:38:57,619 What? 720 00:38:58,101 --> 00:39:03,054 Speaker 3: do you think yeah, yeah, it's a really interesting 721 00:39:05,139 --> 00:39:09,306 example and I'm just reflecting on you know, your, you know kind 722 00:39:09,306 --> 00:39:14,442 of your comment that that corporate innovators have an 723 00:39:14,501 --> 00:39:18,889 advantage over some of these VC firms and it sounds like to me, 724 00:39:19,255 --> 00:39:23,063 I mean, it's the systems, it's the structure that can enable 725 00:39:23,103 --> 00:39:27,036 the scaling and the incubating, and not just the, not just the 726 00:39:27,077 --> 00:39:27,818 light bulb ideas. 727 00:39:28,259 --> 00:39:34,248 Speaker 1: And the fallacy that many of us sit with is that it's 728 00:39:34,248 --> 00:39:35,250 the ideas that matter. 729 00:39:35,250 --> 00:39:42,974 We all think that Polaroid and Kodak and Nokia and these other 730 00:39:43,014 --> 00:39:48,143 firms that they got disrupted and kicked out of, you know and 731 00:39:48,164 --> 00:39:52,318 sent into bankruptcy because they didn't see digital 732 00:39:53,079 --> 00:39:56,367 technologies coming, they didn't see digital photography or they 733 00:39:56,367 --> 00:39:59,804 didn't see app stores and touchscreens and smartphones. 734 00:39:59,804 --> 00:40:01,288 It's totally untrue. 735 00:40:01,288 --> 00:40:05,199 They all had the technology, they all had the insights. 736 00:40:05,199 --> 00:40:09,608 Polaroid had the world's first megapixel camera in the market 737 00:40:09,628 --> 00:40:10,148 in the 90s. 738 00:40:10,148 --> 00:40:13,764 The issue is they couldn't execute. 739 00:40:13,764 --> 00:40:17,367 It's about how do you use these assets. 740 00:40:17,367 --> 00:40:21,815 That makes the difference, not whether you have the ideas, and 741 00:40:21,856 --> 00:40:22,820 that is the hard part of it. 742 00:40:22,820 --> 00:40:25,202 I portrayed a very positive story. 743 00:40:25,202 --> 00:40:31,335 I've written this book with two professors, and you know um 744 00:40:31,617 --> 00:40:33,865 mike tushman from the harvard business school, charles 745 00:40:33,905 --> 00:40:36,918 o'reilly from stanford, and so I've got another story about 746 00:40:36,938 --> 00:40:39,210 what it's like to have, you know , a harvard and stanford 747 00:40:39,231 --> 00:40:43,681 professor marking your work every week sounds a little 748 00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:50,130 intimidating yeah, but but um, um, I forgot what I was going to 749 00:40:50,130 --> 00:40:50,291 say. 750 00:40:50,311 --> 00:40:52,695 That, um, what did I say before that? 751 00:40:53,135 --> 00:40:56,503 Speaker 3: yeah, you were talking about um, the uh, um 752 00:40:57,045 --> 00:41:02,177 execution and uh, and then we've had a positive slant on this oh 753 00:41:02,177 --> 00:41:02,498 , yeah, yeah. 754 00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:03,780 Speaker 1: So mike my tushman. 755 00:41:03,780 --> 00:41:06,987 My tushman always says what are the counterfactuals? 756 00:41:06,987 --> 00:41:09,751 And it's all very well to have these great stories, but it has 757 00:41:09,771 --> 00:41:10,215 to be a counterfactual. 758 00:41:10,215 --> 00:41:13,139 And there are counterfactuals in the book and the biggest is 759 00:41:13,179 --> 00:41:19,681 GE right and how it pursued GE Digital and what killed it was 760 00:41:19,721 --> 00:41:24,288 the social network right and so a lot of the sort of. 761 00:41:24,288 --> 00:41:28,583 There's a lot of view that if you have the CEO's support you 762 00:41:28,643 --> 00:41:29,304 must succeed. 763 00:41:29,304 --> 00:41:32,983 Well, he had all the support Jeff Immelt, the CEO of GE, 764 00:41:33,063 --> 00:41:33,905 could possibly give him. 765 00:41:33,905 --> 00:41:42,887 The guy stuck his future on this strategy to be a software 766 00:41:42,907 --> 00:41:43,248 company. 767 00:41:43,248 --> 00:41:48,418 But those weren't the things that killed Bill Rue, the leader 768 00:41:48,418 --> 00:41:49,139 of GE Digital. 769 00:41:49,139 --> 00:41:51,842 It was the sort of silent killers in the organization, 770 00:41:52,702 --> 00:41:55,025 like the system of optimization and so on. 771 00:41:55,025 --> 00:42:01,391 So I do need to to to highlight that this can be tough as well. 772 00:42:04,016 --> 00:42:06,358 Speaker 3: That sounds like everything in HR, you know you 773 00:42:06,398 --> 00:42:09,360 start with these great intentions and then, oh wow, 774 00:42:09,420 --> 00:42:11,802 this is a lot harder than we thought it was going to be. 775 00:42:13,704 --> 00:42:16,327 Speaker 1: And HR has a core explore problem the whole time 776 00:42:16,367 --> 00:42:20,090 because I want to get paid, I don't want to and, if I'm 777 00:42:20,110 --> 00:42:22,472 managing, I don't want to end up in prison for some breach of 778 00:42:22,572 --> 00:42:23,092 regulation. 779 00:42:23,092 --> 00:42:29,045 There is a core business of HR that you cannot screw up and 780 00:42:29,125 --> 00:42:30,467 then there has to be an explore. 781 00:42:30,467 --> 00:42:33,856 You have to again see these as separate, and I think this 782 00:42:33,936 --> 00:42:37,347 notion of separating the two may be appropriate in HR as well, 783 00:42:38,130 --> 00:42:39,875 rather than trying to make everything. 784 00:42:39,875 --> 00:42:50,610 I personally hugely dislike the Ulrich model of the HR 785 00:42:50,650 --> 00:42:55,286 generalist, Because the generalist it's in that name. 786 00:42:55,286 --> 00:42:58,485 I don't think this is well. 787 00:42:58,485 --> 00:43:01,949 I think it's open to challenge as to whether that really is the 788 00:43:01,949 --> 00:43:09,202 role of HR, and because the skills of delivering the 789 00:43:09,282 --> 00:43:15,168 repeatable results on pay conditions, employment law, are 790 00:43:15,208 --> 00:43:18,030 completely different to I'm going to figure out how to do 791 00:43:18,090 --> 00:43:18,572 innovation. 792 00:43:18,572 --> 00:43:22,585 I'm going to figure out how to contribute strategic skills. 793 00:43:22,585 --> 00:43:26,324 I'm going to figure out how to make hires and refresh our 794 00:43:26,364 --> 00:43:27,327 leadership team or board. 795 00:43:27,327 --> 00:43:30,637 So I just think that these are two different things as well. 796 00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:36,369 Speaker 3: I actually, I agree 100% and it's and maybe this is 797 00:43:36,409 --> 00:43:40,128 just you know, I'm just happy that you said that because 798 00:43:40,168 --> 00:43:41,675 that's how I've structured my department. 799 00:43:41,675 --> 00:43:43,456 But you know, it's, it's the. 800 00:43:43,456 --> 00:43:46,797 You know, I agree wholeheartedly and I think it 801 00:43:46,858 --> 00:43:47,978 comes down to the. 802 00:43:47,978 --> 00:44:11,402 The competencies that they have are very different than the 803 00:44:11,442 --> 00:44:15,978 competencies that I have, which is strategy and cultural 804 00:44:16,018 --> 00:44:20,487 sensitivity, and, you know, being flexible to change and and 805 00:44:20,487 --> 00:44:23,139 and dealing with dynamic situations and really emotional 806 00:44:23,179 --> 00:44:23,701 situations. 807 00:44:23,701 --> 00:44:26,086 And you know it's just there's a dichotomy. 808 00:44:26,086 --> 00:44:28,440 You know a human can't be all those things Right. 809 00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:30,065 It's just the reality of the situation. 810 00:44:30,105 --> 00:44:33,943 So I agree Now for all you HR people of one out there and you 811 00:44:33,963 --> 00:44:36,077 got an entire department and you are a true generalist. 812 00:44:36,077 --> 00:44:38,244 You know, I feel you, I've been there too. 813 00:44:38,244 --> 00:44:43,557 But if at all possible, if you, you know, if you can be aware 814 00:44:43,617 --> 00:44:46,440 of that and as you think about your organization, if there are 815 00:44:46,460 --> 00:44:51,744 things that you can structure to allow for a little bit of a 816 00:44:51,824 --> 00:44:58,610 diversion of how you measure success, depending upon the 817 00:44:58,650 --> 00:45:01,913 actual task, that would be my recommendation there. 818 00:45:02,878 --> 00:45:03,501 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's fair . 819 00:45:03,501 --> 00:45:08,043 I should say it's easy to think about this Corporate Explorer 820 00:45:08,063 --> 00:45:12,237 story as only being about the largest organizations, but I can 821 00:45:12,237 --> 00:45:14,864 give you quite small organizations that have done 822 00:45:14,885 --> 00:45:17,744 this as well, certainly ones below 100 employees. 823 00:45:17,744 --> 00:45:20,440 There will be a point at which it's hard because you can't 824 00:45:20,481 --> 00:45:21,304 split an individual. 825 00:45:21,304 --> 00:45:22,166 I get that. 826 00:45:22,166 --> 00:45:26,579 So there is a point at which it's difficult, but certainly in 827 00:45:26,579 --> 00:45:31,456 the 20s, 30s and upwards, I can point to organizations with 828 00:45:31,496 --> 00:45:33,625 corporate explorers who renew themselves. 829 00:45:33,625 --> 00:45:34,628 Absolutely. 830 00:45:35,190 --> 00:45:36,976 Speaker 3: Well, this has been just a wonderful conversation. 831 00:45:36,976 --> 00:45:40,025 Unfortunately, we are coming to the end of our time together, 832 00:45:40,065 --> 00:45:44,202 so I do want to get through the Rebel HR flash round questions. 833 00:45:44,202 --> 00:45:57,880 Yes, go for it Fascinated to hear these answers All right 834 00:45:57,900 --> 00:46:04,242 Question number one what is your favorite people book? 835 00:46:04,322 --> 00:46:07,483 Speaker 1: Yes, the sort of way in which he, you know, with his 836 00:46:07,664 --> 00:46:12,346 HR leader, deliberately constructs the culture at 837 00:46:12,626 --> 00:46:13,106 Netflix. 838 00:46:13,106 --> 00:46:18,987 But I also love that it starts with a sort of humility of you 839 00:46:19,027 --> 00:46:22,210 know, we didn't get here with a brilliant like oh, I was always 840 00:46:22,250 --> 00:46:22,829 going to do this. 841 00:46:22,829 --> 00:46:26,411 We realized we were screwing up , we had a problem we had to 842 00:46:26,471 --> 00:46:30,012 solve and if we were going to scale this business, we needed 843 00:46:30,052 --> 00:46:30,432 to change. 844 00:46:30,432 --> 00:46:36,237 I thought that was a tremendous , really fun book and very 845 00:46:36,257 --> 00:46:37,440 insightful because of that humility. 846 00:46:37,882 --> 00:46:39,920 Speaker 3: Absolutely, and talk about an innovator, right? 847 00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:45,949 I mean from mailing DVDs to your house to, yeah, you just 848 00:46:46,329 --> 00:46:48,460 push a button on your remote and you can watch whatever you want 849 00:46:48,460 --> 00:46:48,460 . 850 00:46:49,336 --> 00:46:52,202 Speaker 1: That's right, and they have reinvented themselves 851 00:46:52,222 --> 00:46:55,036 several times and there's a Harvard case that will tell you 852 00:46:55,317 --> 00:46:58,704 how they could never make a move from DVDs to streaming. 853 00:46:58,704 --> 00:47:02,920 People bet against them at that point. 854 00:47:03,722 --> 00:47:05,527 Speaker 3: I wish I would have bought that stock a while ago. 855 00:47:05,527 --> 00:47:09,023 Oh well, all right. 856 00:47:09,023 --> 00:47:11,219 Question number two who should we be listening to? 857 00:47:12,617 --> 00:47:15,621 Speaker 1: So I have to say that I don't listen to a lot of 858 00:47:15,704 --> 00:47:16,474 business podcasts. 859 00:47:16,474 --> 00:47:21,737 So I listen a lot to a gentleman called Mike Duncan who 860 00:47:21,737 --> 00:47:24,579 has done a bunch of podcasts, one of them the History of Rome. 861 00:47:24,579 --> 00:47:28,536 But I'm an addict of his very long running sequence of 862 00:47:28,657 --> 00:47:32,400 revolutions podcasts and he's gone through the British 863 00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:35,434 Revolution, the English Civil War Revolution, the American 864 00:47:35,735 --> 00:47:36,277 Revolution. 865 00:47:36,277 --> 00:47:40,608 Until I became a citizen I'd call that the rebellion, but now 866 00:47:40,608 --> 00:47:42,056 I recognize it as the revolution. 867 00:47:42,076 --> 00:47:44,222 Speaker 3: You're not allowed to be a citizen, if you call it 868 00:47:44,262 --> 00:47:44,402 that. 869 00:47:44,402 --> 00:47:45,827 I think that's on the test. 870 00:47:46,074 --> 00:47:47,001 Speaker 1: That's right, the French Revolution, and so on. 871 00:47:47,001 --> 00:47:48,552 And that's on the test, that's right, the french revolution, 872 00:47:48,592 --> 00:47:48,974 and so on. 873 00:47:48,974 --> 00:47:51,505 And and what's really interesting is that when you 874 00:47:51,567 --> 00:47:54,657 listen to like these 10 revolutions, you get a few 875 00:47:54,697 --> 00:47:54,998 things. 876 00:47:54,998 --> 00:48:00,126 And revolutions happen when, when people resist change, when 877 00:48:00,146 --> 00:48:04,722 they try to stop renewal right, when they don't explore into the 878 00:48:04,722 --> 00:48:08,777 future adequately or learn their way into the future, and 879 00:48:08,836 --> 00:48:11,762 so in this, in in these stories, history, you get the same 880 00:48:12,224 --> 00:48:14,527 stories of what happens to companies that don't renew 881 00:48:14,568 --> 00:48:16,963 themselves, and I just love the way he presents it. 882 00:48:16,963 --> 00:48:21,864 So Mike Duncan is who people should listen to Awesome. 883 00:48:21,864 --> 00:48:22,284 Thank you. 884 00:48:22,304 --> 00:48:22,905 Speaker 3: All right. 885 00:48:22,905 --> 00:48:25,635 Last question Great conversation today, just 886 00:48:25,735 --> 00:48:26,701 wonderful content. 887 00:48:26,701 --> 00:48:30,644 How can our listeners connect with you and get their hands on 888 00:48:30,664 --> 00:48:31,427 the Corporate Explorer? 889 00:48:32,655 --> 00:48:36,565 Speaker 1: Well, please go to Amazon or your favorite 890 00:48:36,664 --> 00:48:42,737 e-commerce vendor and look for Corporate Explorer by Andrew 891 00:48:42,777 --> 00:48:44,521 Binns, mike Tushman and Charles O'Reilly. 892 00:48:44,521 --> 00:48:47,085 Thecorporateexplorercom. 893 00:48:48,286 --> 00:48:53,543 Speaker 3: Awesome, Absolutely Just wonderful, wonderful 894 00:48:53,583 --> 00:48:54,485 conversation today. 895 00:48:54,485 --> 00:48:57,666 Really appreciate you coming on and sharing a different 896 00:48:57,726 --> 00:49:03,000 perspective from kind of the conventional wisdom and really 897 00:49:03,159 --> 00:49:06,125 really kind of stretching our minds here a little bit. 898 00:49:06,125 --> 00:49:06,927 So thank you, Andy. 899 00:49:07,487 --> 00:49:07,987 Speaker 1: Thank you, kyle. 900 00:49:07,987 --> 00:49:10,822 I enjoyed it enormously and thanks to all of your listeners. 901 00:49:10,822 --> 00:49:12,619 And if people buy the book, read the book. 902 00:49:12,619 --> 00:49:13,340 Love your feedback. 903 00:49:13,340 --> 00:49:14,784 Perfect Thanks. 904 00:49:15,987 --> 00:49:19,164 Speaker 3: All right, that does it for the Rebel HR podcast. 905 00:49:19,164 --> 00:49:21,222 Big thank you to our guests. 906 00:49:21,222 --> 00:49:26,521 Follow us on Facebook at Rebel HR Podcast, twitter at Rebel HR 907 00:49:26,561 --> 00:49:29,943 Guy, or see our website at rebelHumanResourcescom. 908 00:49:29,943 --> 00:49:33,643 The views and opinions expressed by Rebel HR podcast 909 00:49:33,682 --> 00:49:35,836 are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the 910 00:49:35,858 --> 00:49:39,786 official policy or position of any of the organizations that we 911 00:49:39,786 --> 00:49:40,148 represent. 912 00:49:40,148 --> 00:49:43,661 No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast.