Today's global workforce is made up of 50% millennials, and in just a few short years that number is projected to balloon to 75%! The approach to leadership is changing but not fast enough — what we deem important and how we lead needs to catch up. Adam Kingl, leadership expert, speaker and author, stopped by the Leading With Nice Interview Series to discuss why organizations must adapt to the expectations of younger generations in order to thrive.
Today's global workforce is made up of 50% millennials, and in just a few short years that number is projected to balloon to 75%! The approach to leadership is changing but not fast enough — what we deem important and how we lead needs to catch up. Adam Kingl, leadership expert, speaker and author, stopped by the Leading With Nice Interview Series to discuss why organizations must adapt to the expectations of younger generations in order to thrive.
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The number one complaint that I hear from CEOs is our organization isn't nearly as innovative, adaptable, and inspirational as it needs to be. And the reason for that has to do with the fact that we are still adhering to management processes and philosophies of 160 years ago. We still run our organizations as if they are 18th century military campaigns.
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Hey, and welcome to the Leading with Nice Interview Series podcast. My name is Mathieu Yuill and we want to help you inspire others, build loyalty and get results? Now, today's guest, when I was doing research and looking for potential people to be on the podcast, I came across Adam Kingl's new books, and I was like, really, is this true? And we're going to talk about it in a bit. And you're going to see why I was so dumbfounded at how perfect the topic was for the time we're in right now.
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And when I started to learn more about Adam, I was like, oh, I totally get it. Adam has a full career of working, innovation, strategy, culture, leadership. He really is somebody that would you want to talk about the future of work, the future, leadership, how culture might look into the 2020s and beyond. He's the guy you want to have in the conversation now. I don't want to spend a lot of time going over as his resume and all as accomplished because that will come out through our conversation.
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And really, I want to maximize the time we get to his good thinking. And as you know, if you're a frequent listener of the Leading with Nice Interview Series podcast, we should questions in advance. And these are actually some of the most exciting. I'm most excited for these questions. Naomi, who works with me here. We do the research together. She was a career journalist before joining our company, and we spend a lot of time really forming these questions so that we can get the most out of these.
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So we'll jump right to it. So, Adam, good day. Thank you for joining us here.
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It's my great pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.
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So tell us where you are right now.
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All right. I'm joining you from Richmond and Surrey in the United Kingdom, which is just southwest of Greater London.
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Right. And I was sharing with that. And before we got on, I was confused because if you were in Toronto, Canada, and I'll know a lot of our listeners are here in Canada as well. For probably the first half of us doing prep work, I thought he was in British Columbia because we know Richard Ministry. And so when we were recording this at 10:00 a.m. Eastern Standard time. And so when I saw the time, I was like, Man, Adam the go getter. He's getting up at like, 07:00 a.m. for this podcast, little did I know it's actually like, 03:00 or 02:00 where he is.
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So it's not as nearly as impressive, but still, I I appreciate it. You're still tops in my books. So right off the bat, I want to talk. You have a new book coming out. It's just come out titled Next Generation Leadership, and we can't go any further with it. Asking when you were writing this Next Generation Leadership and researched it, pandemic COVID-19 wasn't even being talked about. You've probably been working on this for a long time. So now, taking all the research you did and all the work you've done, the cumulative studies you have on your bills and what we've experienced the past two years, what's changed?
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What's different? What's the same?
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Yeah. Well, I mean, you're completely right. The timeliness of the book is, I have to admit, somewhat down to chance, because of course, I started researching the book over ten years ago, right?
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Yes.
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COVID wasn't in our nomenclature, but yes, certainly it seems that several of the trends that I had forecast were accelerated by COVID. Here's what's changed. Virtual work is here to stay, no doubt about it. For example, here in the city of London, several financial institutions have announced that they are shedding commercial real estate because they're going to make working from home or the option of working from home a permanent. As I was just looking, I was trying to research all the major companies that have made the option of working from home permanently a regular thing now.
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And the list goes on and on and on. And it isn't necessarily the companies you would expect, you might think. Oh, sure. Dropbox. Oh, sure. Google. Oh, sure. But Capital One Hitachi Fujitsu Simons, these are my favorites. The state of Massachusetts. Even better. 50% of the US Air Force and the US Navy and the Pentagon are now going to be able to work from home on an ongoing basis.
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I just love the idea that to get my driver's license renewed in Massachusetts, I'm going to Betty OS. No, I don't. That's how it's going to work.
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But she actually makes a mean cup of herbal tea. You do a couple of laps around the block in her Ford Pinto and yourself. So clearly, virtual work is here to say no. A few companies are taking the opposite bet they're like Goldman Sachs or they're saying get back into the office right now. This is how creativity and collaboration happens. So companies are making big bets, and we will see who's going to be right. I suspect, however, that the companies that will be competitive, at least from the perspective of talent, recruitment and retention, will be those who are leaning into virtual work, at least making it partial or full option.
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There is something that came out of the UK. Oh, man. I did a blog post or something. I feel like two years ago now, insurance companies in the UK had stopped asking for educational requirements for entry level jobs, and I think this is in the same bucket of that like in terms of attractiveness of a place to work.
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Yeah, completely. Yeah. Completely. At that point around education requirements is interesting. This is sort of a situation of what goes around comes around because here again, the city of London and particularly the financial institutions for many years decades were known for having a rich, diverse mix of employees, which they would say was at least partially attributable to their success. So you had your Oxbridge graduates and you had people who came in as school leavers doing an apprenticeship, many from local East London neighborhood so called Barrow Boys back in the day.
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And that rich combination many banks said, this is why we have been successful. So you're very interesting that the insurance companies are coming back around to the idea of being more Liberal around requirements. So certainly I think virtual work is key. I'll give you another reason why. And this came out in my book, I asked Generation Y millennials, what are the top criteria for you in selecting an employer and why you might stay with an employer? The number one answer was work life balance, number one, not salary, not pension, not promot ability opportunities.
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Worklife balance. And we know that we are facing a loyalty crisis in the workforce. Gen y currently composes 50% of the global workforce. It's going to be 75% in four short years. It's already well over 50% in many parts of the world. I'm thinking of Africa, for example, in particular. And you have a generation that expects that they're not going to stay for any given employer for, on average, more than three to five years and over a third are suspecting no more than two years. So you have this massive portion of the workforce that are saying every two to five years, I'm moving on.
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Unless you're doing something for me.
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I wonder if we talk in three to five years again if loyalty crisis has become no, we always touch the word crisis at the end. It's the loyalty solution or some we're talking about, like we figured out how to either train and move people in and out of our companies more fluidly, or we figure out a way to make them want to say, had better development.
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Yeah. I hope so. Certainly hope for the latter. And I think the former is an inevitability because we know that over 70% of the world's work occurs in projects that implies that you need a more flexible workforce on a project, working on a project by project basis. The gig economy certainly encompasses a lot more than Uber drivers and delivery people. And I know many people, and I'm one of them embraces that lifestyle. But employers have to catch up with this trend. The employees, or more accurately, the workforce, are ahead of most HR departments in this manner.
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A former colleague that I hired, oh, maybe, I guess, like five years ago, six years ago, and we both moved on from that organization. Obviously, she was telling me how she just left. She had two gigs and she's been at them for two years, and she just left one. And that the person, her boss, the one gig was surprised. And she was like, Why are you surprised at the project? You hired me. We finished it. And now we're maintaining. So now you need somebody different to I'm not a maintainer.
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And he was blown away, just like everything extends you like, I don't want this. I don't want to sit and maintain this thing. What do you not get? And he was just, like, out left field. He couldn't comprehend it.
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Yeah. I'm seeing that so much. Your HR directors in general are just saying, help me understand the workforce, particularly the slightly younger workforce. The most common refrain or perhaps complaint is the better word is they tell you, I just don't get them.
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Yes.
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Could you please help us be the Millennial whisper for us?
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Millennials. That's amazing. We had another gentleman on the podcast. He's actually in the West Coast of California. He actually calls himself the Undercover Millennial. Clint Polver is his name. And he does a thing where you can hire him to go into your company. And he basically is undercover as a Millennial. And he talks to Millennials to find out what they don't like about your company.
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Right.
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And you and I are I'm 44. We're probably in the same age range we are. I remember companies, if they wanted to make you talk about work life balance, which I want to maybe ask you a bit deep. More about because companies, when we were middle management and growing into our full sales, they would install a foosball table or a pool table in the break room.
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And that was enough for.
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Like, a beer fridge. Because on Fridays we're working until 07:00 p.m.. We could have a beer at seven. Right. And we were thought that was great. Now could you imagine?
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Yeah.
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If we said coming on the weekend, we have a pool table and a beer fridge. They'd be like, I also have a pool table and beer fridge. I'll stay at home.
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Thank you. That's right. And the real tragedy is companies are still telling me that same thing. So I ask them, tell me how you're attracting and keeping your Millennials, and some of them say, Well, Adam, we have a foosball table in the kitchen.
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Right.
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Full stop.
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Exactly. We have foosball table and all seasons of Seinfeld on DVD.
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Yeah. While you're eating your lunch.
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So listen, this is going to divert from a few of our questions because I want to dive deeper. So when we talk about work life balance today, yeah. What does that mean? Because I think everybody listening right now. Everybody has just in their head defined what work life balances for them individually. Now, when you're talking to an organization, what types of things do they need to be conscious of when looking at this work life balance.
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I'm so pleased to ask me that question because I would say the number one revelation for me personally in doing the research is what I discovered is that there is semantic discord in the global workforce around the term work life balance. So when I say semantic discord, I mean, people have different definitions of the phrase, and that's why it's a charged term. People get frustrated and angry because they are talking across purposes. And particularly, I see this difference in the definition between generations. There are probably other ways you could cut it, but I certainly see it between the generation.
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So typically and I'm generalizing, whenever you talk about generations, you have to generalize. So forgive me, but typically, baby boomers and X's when they talk about work life balance, they think of that as a when statement. So in other words, if an employee comes to me and says, I want work life balance, I think of that as well. You want to work fewer hours. That's why I mean, it's a when question. You want to work fewer hours. When I was your age, I paid my dues.
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I worked as long as was required. You don't want to work the same number of hours. You're lazy. This generation are so lazy. It goes right. And that is at least partially contributed to this misnomer that millennials or generation Y are a lazy generation. I found that to be far from the truth. But when Jen I when I asked them, what do you mean when you say work life balance? What became clear is that was a where statement. So in other words, technology allows us to work anywhere any time.
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So what they're rejecting is FaceTime culture. This idea has to be changed to my desk from nine to five Monday to Friday and don't leave until the boss leaves, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And they're even rejecting the generic work week. So they're saying, look, if I belong, for example, to a softball League, and that is on Wednesday afternoons, I'm going to do that. That doesn't mean I'm not going to make it up on Saturday, Sunday, et cetera. Because the Internet, for lack of a better term has made us connected all the time.
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So the fact that we're working from home does not mean we're working less. In fact, all of us who have been working from home for the last, umpteen, months now, and if anything, we've probably been working more because where is the switch off? Where is the commute home that tells you it's time to stop work. So this where versus when has illustrated for me that work life balance is a highly charged term. And so if only people would chat more about what they mean when they talked about that in their context, I think they would get a a lot farther when I used to share this back in the day when we used to speak at conferences in front of real life people I'd always see, particularly when colleagues would sit next to each other who are in different generations.
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Right.
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At this point, they would start elbowing each other in the ribs. And I knew at that moment, okay, clearly, I have hit a nerve. I'm hitting on something you have discussed or noticed before. So that was quite interesting.
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One of the things that kind of pushed me away from full time work. As I worked for a guy who on day three, he had come in is my I reported him, and the office hours were like, nine to five, and my team typically would come in between ten and noon and work till six or whatever. And he was saying it on day three. He's like, what is up with you and your team? Why do you work this way? And I said, Well, you know, I don't know.
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We come in at nine and nobody talks to us till noon anyway. So that's why are we here? And then also, we're working on this web project, and the developer is in India. So I'm on Slack and Discord chat with him at 11:00 p.m.. I don't know. I'm tired at 09:00 a.m.. And he was like, What Slack? And I was like, okay, now I we answered all my questions, but it was a real problem for him. And I get it like, our parents, this would have been unconscionable.
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Yeah.
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And for good reasons, like, back then, you couldn't get a hold of somebody they couldn't work on their project. I remember ten years ago were talking to Ten 2013. Maybe I was at another organization, and I was working on some writing, and my communications coordinator was leaving the company to go travel through Europe. And I said, Her name is Marissa. Her name still is Marissa. I said, Marissa. I said, hey, listen, what would you think? Like, I know you'll be traveling. What would you think if I gave you some of these blog posts or some of these writings?
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I'm doing you're a great copy it. What if I gave them to you while you were over there? And she was like, really, you would do that? And I'm like, oh, I told you not expect that. I thought you would be like, I'm going to be on vacation. She's like, Mathieu, it is my dream to sit in a Paris cafe and edit coffee. That would be a dream come true. And sure enough, she did. And I would get stuff sent to me at local time two0 M.
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But she would send me a picture from her razor flip phone, a smart camera of a sunset in Paris. And she was like, oh, finished your blog post on Gratitude, and I'd be like, Man, you are actually living the life I want.
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That a modern day technology enabled.
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Grita Stein, right. Exactly. It's so great. I want to be on we could talk. This could be work like Babs could be the whole your next book. So you probably already pause this by now and Google that if you haven't paused Google in because you need to fully appreciate why I ask this next question when I was doing research and preparing for this, and I was like, oh, man, this guy is legit, like, there's a lot of experts out there that have really valid experience that make great guys.
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What I really appreciate you is you have a ton of in the trenches business work, and you also come out from a research education viewpoint as well. So I'm going to ask you this question. And for those of you listening at home, listen up, because Adam is going to deliver some great stuff here you are talking to business leaders right now. So I would love for you to kind of give to us what you're hearing from them, where they're struggling and succeeding and maybe pair it with a little bit of academia.
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Like, what theory do we talk about in school that you're actually seeing lived out and you're hearing both success and struggles they're having from business leaders you're speaking to today?
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Yeah. Thank you. I love that question. Thank you. The number one issue, or shall I say complaint that I hear from CEOs today? And again, I think COVID has only accelerated this trend is our organization isn't nearly as innovative, adaptable, and inspirational as it needs to be. And so we are struggling. And COVID only illustrated further how far the gap is. And it isn't just that they're telling me that I also can quantify the gap because BCG put out a survey of CEOs a few years ago and they asked them, Is innovation a top three priority for you?
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So all over the world? And I said, yes, innovation is a top three priority for us. Then separately, McKinsey asked employees all over the world, how good is your organization at innovation and adaptability? And I answered one degree or other said, Basically, we're crap at it. So it's the exact inverse of the CEO saying something is a priority and employees saying we are poor added, I don't believe there is a bigger gap in the workforce today between the aspiration and the reality of any other condition of work life.
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And the reason for that, I think, has to do with the fact that we are still at hearing loyalty to management processes and philosophies of 160 years ago. We are still consciously or unconsciously managing our organization. According to the precepts of Frederick Winslow Taylor, who is the father of scientific management in the industrial Revolution. This is the guy who said Every employee is an asset, is a cog in the organizational machine, which was admittedly perfect for the industrial age. If I'm working on the Ford Automobile plan, I need to put this screw in this hole in precisely the same way at precisely the same time every single time.
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And if I can do it even more efficiently or faster and without error, so much the better. And that's all I need to do. I don't think Henry Ford even once said famously, Why is it every time I hire a pair of hands, a brain comes attached that sums up scientific management for you? I'm exaggerating. But and the funny thing is, I think many people have assumed that because we've gone through the digital revolution, that our management philosophy and processes have changed. But broadly they have not even worse, it is becoming a handicap on human wealth and productivity.
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So I used to be an associate at the management lab, which is Gary Hamels Research Association and Business School. And the Management lab showed that probably all of the productivity growth from the Internet and the digital revolution already has happened. And of course, if you look at most countries, GDP growth has declined over the last 15 or more years. So, you know, more digitalization is not going to produce more wealth per se. It creates more efficiency. So it's actually enabling and manifesting some of the goals of the industrial Revolution even more finely.
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But the problem is with every passing year because we're lazy about adapting our management to be fit for purpose, our organizations are becoming less human. So if I go back to the very first point that I made my first claim that organizations aren't nearly as innovative or adaptable or as inspirational as they need to be, those three traits are all human traits. They cannot be replaced by AI or any digital initiative that you throw at me. But our organizations are still very much bureaucratic ones. And in fact, the bureaucratic machine is only growing in the US.
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And I believe the statistics are very similar. In Canada, the percent of employees who are devoted to bureaucracy. So what do I mean by that? These are back office support, compliance, internal and external, not customer facing, not product creation or improvement is reaching 50% of the workforce. I will never believe, and you will never be able to convince me that we need of the workforce spending all day every day responding to requests of compliance. And I can't believe that we need as many managers as we do.
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One of the reasons we have so many managers per employee in our organizations is our philosophy of management is still that management equals to control. In fact, if you look at almost any thesaurus in any language in the world and you look at the verb to manage, the number one synonym you will see is to control. And so if we think to manages to control, of course, we actually need lots of managers because work is becoming more complex. So we need more people to supervise it.
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We need to control it. But of course, the more you build in control, the more you also control out innovation, adaptability and inspiration, which is the hurdle at humanity faces to reach the next dramatic acceleration of not just wealth but of happiness. But at the moment we still run our organizations as if they are 18 century military campaigns.
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One of the way. I mean, this is my solution to the management. How do they use the word problem? The management reality today is I've started using the term accountabilities with managers. So what you're accountable for is this and that gives you flexibility and freedom to do things, how you feel will extract what you're accountable for. And so I feel like it's a bit more flexibility. But I have a lot of learning to do now. I love to leave people with, like, three things they can do right now to up their game, to be better at helping this next generation become leaders.
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Like, maybe you might have tips on like, here's an action you can take right now. Here's a blog. You can start reading whatever. You know, I'm sure you have 50 of these, but just give me three actionable steps they can take.
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Sure. Okay. So assuming I'm speaking to let's start with people who are looking after others. So if you are a line manager, regardless of your age, purpose is an incredibly important lever that you have at your disposal, helping your people understand why they do what they do and why they choose to do it here. Unless you can help people answer both of those questions, you are probably contributing to the loyalty crisis. And if you can help people create a golden thread between their purpose and the organization's purpose so much the better.
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Right. Because then I can go to work every day saying so if I do these things that fulfill me, I help the organization fulfill its purpose. And when the organization is fulfilling its purpose, they help me fulfill mine. So you get this virtuous circle. Purpose, unfortunately, is still very much relegated in too many organizations to words in the annual financial report or the values that you see in the lift when you walk into the office instead of it's actually dialogue and particularly people who are in a mentor position or line manager position, I think, are responsible for helping people to articulate and live their purpose.
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Because this brings me to the second tip. If you understand what your purpose is, that immediately implies certain development possibilities for you, which are beyond taking a class, though that could be one of them, but often organizations as the development because they think it's expensive. But often development could be well, if you want to pursue your career in this direction, you can be shadowing this person. We can put you on an international secondment over there. You can do a project that touches so many of those bases.
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Unfortunately, still, many organizations think of development as a reward for tenure, I. E. If you work here for eight plus years, then we'll send you on this lead program at such and such a school. Look, I have made a large portion of my career teaching such courses, but that isn't the only answer. It's not the only answer.
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Yes.
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Development should be all the time and should be directly linked to how people are articulating their purpose. The third thing, and this has nothing to do with line management is that is, we have to speak more openly and empathetically about mental health. Of course, COVID has has thrown all of this right up in the air and revealed this to organizations. But until 16 months ago, when many organizations talked about health and wellness, what they really meant was you can't carry a mug of water when you're walking down the stairs, right?
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It was just about workplace safety rather than genuine awareness responses to and protection of their people around their mental health. And of course, COVID has made those issues more transparent and more acute. And organizations, I think, are starting to respond, but even some are still very slow at that. But, you know, like so many of these issues, similar to those of mental health, don't wait until it's a crisis. Be Proactive and think about how you are fostering good mental wellness in your organization before someone comes to you in the midst of in the midst of a crisis.
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I find on that topic, especially sometimes if you're in a leadership position where you have the authority or the ability to make decisions around just for lack of a better description, like time off or flexibility. Sometimes you need to be speculative in giving your employees a space, not because you think, oh, they're in crisis right now, but just you're like, I'm going to do this so that in the 15 chance that this path might lead to battle, I'm going to try to head that off right now, and that could be very counter intuitive.
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I was speaking to a leader recently that gave they gave their employee week off just for mental health. And the reason I was speaking to them is that employee email being said, hey, I got this week off, but my the leader is still emailing me, this is not helpful, and their heart was in the right place. But they they didn't know. How do I balance this? And that's tough. But to have that mindset of speculative help, I think could be beneficial.
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Many organizations, unfortunately, this goes back to the philosophy of management. Too many bosses philosophy is still push my people as hard as they can until they collapse. And when they collapse, I will demonstrate empathy and say, oh, I'm going to give you a week off. Yes, that's unconscionable.
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We have a policy at leading with nice. There's three employees plus me, so it's easier to control. We do not allow half day vacations because and I'll say I say that, but because if you need a half day to the dentist, just go to the dentist. I don't give me a five vacation requests. That's not vacation. Save your vacation days for actual vacations. If you need to go shopping for a birthday, go to the mall. If that half day turns into a whole day, I know you're going to get it later.
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They have the freedom to not have to worry about saying, do you mind if I take the morning off? Go completely. We all work remotely. It'd be very creepy if I knew you're coming and going, because that means I'd be spying on your own. Okay. Last question. Because, dude, man, as I was reading about you, and even more so, after our conversation, I got to know, what was it for you that inspired you into this field of study? Like what drives you? What's your golden thread?
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Yeah, well, it's related to what I've mentioned that I think our organizations need to become more human centric. That certainly has been a common thread throughout my career, particularly related in consulting and executive education. But I would go further and say, ultimately, why I do what I do today is to help organizations contribute more joy to the workplace.
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Okay, so did you get that? Where did you experience that? Or on the Conversely, not experience so that you wanted to pursue that with the passion you have?
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Well, I guess I've experienced both. So I know it's possible. The funny thing is, too often. My very first career was in the arts, particularly in theater as a director, mainly. And I noticed that often those experiences were on the whole joyful. Not always, of course, but frequently and generally in workplaces. I found that you don't encounter those joyful moments nearly as often, and I don't believe I can't believe that that difference in joyful moments is solely down to. Well, Adam, theater, that's the arts that always happens when you work in creative industries, because actually, all creative industries are are emphasizing certain qualities that bring us joy in the same way that other things bring us joy in other elements of work.
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So I believe that every organization has the imperative, has the mandate to think about how they can make their workplace a source of great joy, because I think that serves not just employees, but customers, clients, partners, suppliers, regulators, shareholders. You name it when I find commercial organizations that attempt to maximize joy internally and for their customers. Those organizations, funny enough, also do incredibly well financially. So there's no trade off here.
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Cool. All right, Adam working. We will find out more about you and get a copy of your book.
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Yeah, my website is the easiest way to reach me. Very simple. Adam kinglet. Com all one word. My book, Next Generation Leadership is available globally at all. Good, online and in person book retailers near you. It's available, I should say, in a hardback book and audiobook.
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Who who did the audio? Did you read it yourself or did you hire somebody?
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I didn't. No, no, my publisher. They have a fleet of actors who did it. Yes. So it's a funny point there that the person who read my book is based in Tennessee, so people might listen to that and think, oh, Adam has a slight Southern accent. Not true.
[00:33:32.210]
That's great. Agents. It's Adam King. Com. Before we go, I have a team that I love that helps me get it going. I want to thank them. Naomi Grossman. I mentioned he already. She helps me research and write questions. Jamie Hunter, if you see this online, he's our content manager. He's the guy that put it all over social. Kerry Cotton. She is running the business while I'm sitting here having conversations with really cool people. Thank you, Carrie. I carry, by the way, on this matter recently. I said, here's a project for you and just kind of get it done when you want.
[00:34:07.320]
Why do you give me such freedom and flexibility over when I do this? And I said, I don't think you'd work for me if I made you do it in certain hours. And she said, You're right. She is the proof of what admin I talked about. Carrie, I love the work you do. Thank you. Austin Pomeroy, the audio editor. He makes us sound amazing. If you've seen video of this online, that was Jeff and Born cutting it together and put it together. Cindy Craik does all the booking and make sure guests get into a right time slot and lets me know when to show up.
[00:34:34.890]
And, of course, Allison, my wife, just makes my life amazing so I can do stuff like this. I want to thank all those people. But, of course, Adam, this podcast to be very boring if it was just me talking about you. So thank you for taking time today, and I really appreciate it.
[00:34:50.340]
Thank you.
[00:34:50.940]
I hope you have a wonderful rest of the day. Thanks so much for more on this visit leading with nice. Com. We'll talk to you guys soon.