Working with Gen Z and Millennials with Penny Kirlik

Penny Kirlik is the executive director of the Centennial College Student Association Inc. Every year, she works with over 100 students, and about a quarter of them work closely with her on the board of directors. Few are as qualified to speak about working with Gen Z and Millennials as Penny is. On this episode, she discusses how she navigates excelling working with people in this age group. 

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Penny Kirlik:
Don't be in a big panic. I know everyone's so busy, blah, blah, blah, but you need to take the time to get to know them, and don't ever be too busy for them, that's like the kiss of death. If you're too busy with your busywork that you can't spend some time with your board member or whatever, being heard and being appreciated, I know it sounds cliché, are two of the most important things.

Mathieu Yuill:
Today, we're in for a real treat, we're talking with my friend, Penny Kirlik, who I have known for, easily more than 20 years. And the reason we have Penny on today, is Penny is the Executive Director of the Centennial College Student Association Incorporated, at Centennial College in Toronto, Canada. What makes her job unique, and I'm going to ask Penny to just talk a little bit about what a student association is and what it does, but what makes her position unique is yes, there's a compliment of full-time staff, but there is also upwards of a hundred part-time students that work in the organization, but not continually. They're here for a year, two years and then gone. And so today, what I want to talk to Penny about, and what I want the audience to understand and get some learning from, is what it means to work with this group.

Mathieu Yuill:
So, we'll jump into it. So, Penny Kirlik, welcome here.

Penny Kirlik:
Thank you, Mathieu.

Mathieu Yuill:
For those who don't understand what a student association is, and how it works, and what it means to work there, and what possible job you could even do, can you just give us a high level of what it's all about?

Penny Kirlik:
Sure. So, first of all, when I tell people that I work at a college, they assume one of two things: that either I'm a secretary, or that I'm a teacher, and then when I tell them what I really do, either their eyes glaze over, or they want more information. So this is what I really do: I work for the Student Association, and those of you that ever have attended college or university, you paid activity fees with your tuition, whether you noticed it or not, you were paying activity fees. We at the Student Association get those activity fees to provide programs, activities, and services for students on campus. So, at Centennial, we have over 22,000 students each semester that pay, right now it's $75 a semester, fees, and we provide programs, services, and activities through those fees.

Penny Kirlik:
Centennial has five main campuses, so we serve students at five campuses. One small just opened up so that our four main campuses, we have offices that provide free legal aid to students, information about the domestic student health plan.

Penny Kirlik:
It's a lounge, there's pool tables and chairs and planned study spaces. We're the go-to people for students that have any questions. Even though we may not know the answers, one of our driving goals is that we will get you to the right people. We don't like to ping pong people, we like to get them to the right place. And so, we tried to provide these services consistently across the four campuses. And we also do events like fun things like pool tournaments and pizza days and pub nights and comedy shows that those kinds of social things, but we also do a lot of work around mental health initiatives and health and wellness. Those things are very important to us. We also run a athletic and wellness center here at the progress campus, but the mental health has become more and more of a priority for us to deal with us as an organization, as we see our students struggling with mental health challenges each and every day.

Mathieu Yuill:
So, with the athletic and wellness center and student centers at all the campuses, how do you keep them running?

Penny Kirlik:
So, that's all the part-time staff we have. As I said earlier, we have a hundred part-time staff and those are our operations staff or facility staff. Every day, the students do all the setup and tear down for events. They do all the cleaning, they do all the maintenance, they take the garbage out, they cut the grass, they water the flowers, they help students, they open doors. We also run a food services operation five days a week. Also, we're licensed, so we have a bar that's also open. So, they work in the food services area or in the bar, feeding the many people that come through our... we have a student center at this progress campus as well, so people that come through that facility.

Penny Kirlik:
So, that's one of our things that we're most proud of is that we have so many part-time students staff. And interestingly enough, this year, every one of our part-time operations staff are international students. So, over almost... Centennial, we're just 50/50 international students and domestic students. And, what that means is that, domestic students are students from Ontario, international are students from all around the world. For example, on my student board this year, I have a student from Mexico City, one from Pakistan, quite a few from India, and one from Brazil, so the diversity of those students on the board adds a whole other layer to the work that we do.

Mathieu Yuill:
So, let's talk about that. So, I think it's easy to understand that you hire students to work part-time to do operations, cleaning, work in the kitchen, et cetera, et cetera, but there's this other, is it a job? Would you call it a job? They're elected by the student body or appointed by the student board members. So, tell me about that.

Penny Kirlik:
Well, it's interesting, because half of them are elected, which means they go out and they get voted in, and there's not a whole lot of criteria to run for election. You have to be a full-time student, you have to have a certain GPA, it's 3.0, in your previous semester, you have to have some volunteer experience. But, other than that, anybody can apply to run for a position, except for the position of president. He or she has to been on the student board for a year and be able to work full-time, the student president's job is full time. But the rest of them are anybody who is able to win the election, we welcome them with open arms, and then the other half of them are hired through an appointed position process. And again, anybody can apply for these positions, the only criteria is the same as running in the election, except for the added component of having to be interviewed by the board and hired for the position. But, at the end of the day, the 13 of them are the board and they set the governing tone for the organization every year.

Mathieu Yuill:
So before we dive a bit deeper into that, a typical college program is only three years, some, maybe a few, a bit longer, many, two years or one year.

Penny Kirlik:
Yeah, so that's the reality of the work that we do. For example, my new board starting on Wednesday, I have five returning board members, so they were on the board last year. And then, the rest of them, eight of them, are brand new to the student association. And so, I'm lucky if I get somebody for two years, and this year, as I said, we had five, but most of the time it's 80 or 90% turnover. And, we have, we call it Groundhog Day here, we have to start from scratch every year, and if they're on the board for more than two or three years, usually that indicates a problem that, not a problem, but maybe it's time for them to move on or get another job. It's a very family-like organization that we run here, and it's a very safe place to be.

Penny Kirlik:
And, sometimes people want to stay. And sometimes, I have to give them the gentle nudge to encourage them to move on to other endeavors. But, generally, it's a year and sometimes two years, but that's the extent of it.

Mathieu Yuill:
They're here for good time, not a long time.

Penny Kirlik:
And they can't run to be a part of the board, they have to put in at least one semester. And so, they're still new. They're still as, now I sound like an old person, but they're wet behind the ears 99% of the time, when they join the organization.

Mathieu Yuill:
In addition to them being only around for a few years, these aren't 45, 50 year olds that have a wealth of experience, that maybe come from a time that we are more familiar with, being in that same generation, these are 18 to 25 year olds, these are millennials. Now, millennials get a lot of guff in the media these days, are blamed for almost everything from the housing crisis, which is probably not their fault, through our phone culture, which might be their fault. But, I know you see a lot of good. So, for our listeners that are working in offices and workplaces that have a lot of millennials coming in, what are some really great things that you see that this age group has?

Penny Kirlik:
I don't look at them like millennials. I try not to label people and put them in a little box, because every single person is different. I have millennials that act like two-year-olds and ones that act like 50 year... It doesn't mean anything to me, just because it is what it is. But there are some things that you have to be on top of. I had an employee a few years ago, he wanted to wear his headphones to do work, and it really upset me because it went against my idea, because he was not paying attention or that he's not being respectful to other people in the office, and we kind of knocked heads over it, and now they all do that. And now, I'm just so used to it, when they're not doing it, it's like, "Why aren't you using your headphones?"

Penny Kirlik:
So, I think it's like Groundhog Day again, I know I keep using that example, but they bring something new in every day. And, the only thing I have in my arsenal is patience, and if I stop being patient with these young people or any board members or any people, then I can't do my job well anymore, because that particular age group, they're impatient, so I have to be patient. They want things, not now, but right now, they ask a lot of questions, and I talked to them about how to ask questions. If you ask respectfully, I'll tell you anything, I'll show you anything, but if you come in all guns blazing, then that, it gets people's backs up. I'm used to it, but then I have other 28 staff that aren't used to it, even though they work here, it's hard to re-explain everything, every single year, it gets exhausting, but that's what we have to do.

Penny Kirlik:
The other thing that I've seen more and more with this group is that self-care is really important. And, it's not a bad thing for those of us that are older, but they really want to balance their time that they're working with their physical fitness and reading and meditation. And, in the past couple of years, I've seen that more and more, and found that very interesting. And they'll get after me like, "Oh, you're not eating properly," or, "You're not getting enough sleep," or, "Lay off the coffee," whereas before, it wasn't a thing, but it's a thing with them now, and I find it's a very kind thing.

Mathieu Yuill:
And that can rub some of us the wrong way, because we're getting the job done at all costs. We're making phone calls, because we're going to miss dinner this week, we're doing weekend retreats that aren't necessarily paid for or compensated for. So, that's a tough thing.

Penny Kirlik:
It is tough. So, you can't be in this business if you don't like that. You can't do this kind of work if you don't like being pulled in 12 different directions, and by a 19 year old or a 20 year old, or someone that's younger than your own children. And the older I get, obviously, the younger they get, but I have a student president this year who is 21, who is probably one of the wisest young men I've ever known, and he just turned 21 in February. So, is he a millennial? I don't even know, but he doesn't all the things that they say or the bad things, he does not match any of those things. Everyone's different.

Mathieu Yuill:
For sure, yes.

Penny Kirlik:
We have to be... listen to their diversity. And I don't just mean the color of their skin, which lots of people think that's diversity. It's about where they come from, where they need, their situation, their sexuality, their everything. That's the diversity, not just... And a lot of people think, "Oh, we have a student that uses a wheelchair, so he's differently abled, and I said once last year about that the student is in a wheelchair and Sam, the student president, corrected me, he said, "He uses a motorized wheelchair." And I thought, it's just the language that I need to be really thoughtful for what I say, because I wasn't being derogatory, although once I did call them a bunch of snowflakes and got in trouble for it, and I was calling them snowflakes because they were complaining about being too hot. But, I was saying that they're going to melt.

Mathieu Yuill:
Yeah. You ever seen a snowman? I understand.

Penny Kirlik:
Yeah. And I got spoken to about it, because he's like, "Penny, do you know what a snowflake is?" And so, I go look it up and I'm like, "Oh, okay, well Penny, I better make sure when I'm calling them snowflakes, it's literally because they're..." It's all going to be in context anyways. I thought that was pretty funny, but they're very hyper-sensitive to what you say.

Mathieu Yuill:
Yeah. For those of you listening, you can pause, Google snowflake, and then come back to understand the context. Now, I'm going to use air quotes now, because we were just talking about this before we started recording today. Every year, you have a new group of excited people and they come to you, and here's my air quotes, that come to you with "great, new ideas." How do you... And I've watched you use grace and patience to listen, but give us your tips and tricks, how do you deal with... when somebody comes into your office that literally has, sometimes, less than actual minutes of experience, because they haven't started yet, they've just gotten their position, and they're telling you what to do and how to do it. What is your strategy around that? How do you help that person still succeed?

Penny Kirlik:
Well, I won't lie too, it's really difficult because lots of times they come in and they think that they can do your job better than you're doing it yourself. And, maybe they can, but we still have to live with that. I listen and I try not to be defensive, and I explain why things are the way they are. I find in my job, lots of times, I feel like I'm justifying why we do things. And, generally they understand, but sometimes when they don't understand or they don't like it, that's when it can go south, that's when they go and complain, that's when they get a group of their other student leaders together and try to kind of change the world. It's usually because they didn't get what they wanted or what their friends wanted.

Penny Kirlik:
So, that's why we have a board. If it's that important, we get them to bring it to the board. That's why we have meeting minutes. That's why I try to keep really good records and document things. But, I wonder sometimes where they get it from, because it would never occur to me as a... I don't think, maybe I should ask my 19 year old self, but to go into someone's office and say, "Why did you make this decision and why weren't students consulted? And, I want you to change it." Or, "I don't like the price of the food and their food services and I want you to change it." It's just a part of the job.

Penny Kirlik:
And again, I wear my heart on my sleeve and I know I roll my eyes sometimes and I make a face. And, I'm 56, I'm still doing it, so I have to be mindful of that. But, usually, if you just listen to people and give them a chance and talk to them about other options or, not why they can't do it, but why it's done this way, 99% of the time it's okay. But that 1%, when it's not, that's when it gets ugly, but that's when somebody's come in with an agenda...

Mathieu Yuill:
It's a good lesson there. Sometimes, you're not going to win, right?

Penny Kirlik:
No, no. Sometimes, that's just the reality of the job.

Mathieu Yuill:
So, if you're listening and you work with a board of directors, I have a great podcast and I'll link it in the show notes on board of directors and good governance and what it looks like to have a managing board of directors, what it looks like to have a really good governing board of directors, and whose responsibility is what, and we answer questions like what should a good board or director do? So, check that out in the show notes. Penny just brought up a good reason why you want to know that.

Mathieu Yuill:
So, on the other side of that, the ones that come in that just maybe have an idea that they ran on a single idea. They want to have more of X and they want... A few things would happen, one, they might get more of X on day two and what, they're done? No. So, how do you help those people that just have a single, narrow vision? How do you help them be successful and grow? And, you've had former board members here that have gone on to run for government, that have become CEOs of companies, that have gone on to become great educators, consultants, and done a lot of good in their community. So, how do you help those people reach their full potential? You only have a year, so how do you do it?

Penny Kirlik:
I don't know. We do a lot of training. I always tell them at the beginning of the year to take advantage, without taking advantage, that you can learn how to do almost anything in this job and be exposed to almost anything if you just put yourself in the right place. So, if you want to learn about finances, we can teach you about finances. You want to learn a chair meeting? You want to learn how to write policy? You want to meet the president of the college? You want to try... Whatever it is, just let me know and we will work with you. We have this process called the monthly honorary, a process where they're evaluated every month. And, in that document, we ask them what kinds of things they want to do and what they want to work on. But sometimes, people just... they get fizzled out, and if they're one-minded, they get discouraged and they'll leave or they'll move on to the next, sexy item.

Penny Kirlik:
A lot of people run, I think in campaigns, they want to change all the food services in the college, get free tuition and more transit, whatever. Then, they come in and when they start to learn about it, and not just from me, but I'll bring other people in, that's the other thing I learned. They can't hear from me all the time. So, they want to change food services. I bring people in who run food services so they could understand the contract and what it is and the money and blah, blah, blah, all that stuff. So, they're like, "Oh, I didn't know that they had a financial obligation." So, use your other resources carefully, because they'll shop around to the student leaders or shop around to... So, always be the go-to person, but have the right information.

Mathieu Yuill:
The young person that comes on that is just going to do great, how do you get behind them and encourage them?

Penny Kirlik:
I learn about them. I spend time with them. I feed them, that's always a good one.

Mathieu Yuill:
Physically?

Penny Kirlik:
I give them food or I ask about their families. And, that to me, is always my go-to thing. My husband's in sales and he always makes some connection with how he knows the person from the [inaudible 00:18:58], whatever that is. My thing, my sales thing is that I get to know them and their mom and their dad or where they grew up or their brothers and sisters, and I try to remember those kinds of things in the conversation, because we have so many international students, I feel like we're their family in Canada, and I feel that really strongly. But, I feel an obligation and a responsibility to support them that way, and I think that helps them be successful too.

Mathieu Yuill:
Such great advice. If you work in a place... If you're listening and you work in a place where you have a lot of seasonal staff that are young, that maybe are away from home for the first time, or if they're international...

Penny Kirlik:
And, don't be in a big panic. I know everyone's so busy, blah, blah, blah, but you need to take the time to get to know them. And, don't ever be too busy for them, that's like the kiss of death. If you're too busy with your busy, busy work that you can spend some time with, whether it be a student leader or with your board member or whatever, even if it's you miss doing something else, but being heard and being appreciated, I know it sounds cliche, is two of the most important things.

Mathieu Yuill:
I was going to ask you, as we wrap up, what is the most important aspect of your role as executive director, when thinking about your relationship with the board members? But, I think you might've answered it, by saying, listening...

Penny Kirlik:
I think listening and caring, and treating them all exactly the same, giving everybody the same level of respect and time, and that the president is no more important than, I mean, the advocate or whatever. And, sometimes the president, they have pretty big heads, and sometimes it's my job to push their ego down a little bit. And, frankly, that's hard, because some people want to be self-aware, some people don't give a... they don't care. So, those are the hard ones.

Penny Kirlik:
But, I think most of them want to be better and most of them want to get great jobs when they leave here. And so, if I can work with them to see the value of being respectful, being kind, doing your homework, all those things, then generally, they're good. But, some people, it's not that atmosphere. Some people just get... I had a young lady resign a few years ago, she just... There was too much work. She didn't understand why she had to do all this training and why she had to go to all these meetings and, well, that's what you sign up for. But, they read the package, they read the documentation, but until they have to do it sometimes... But that's like with anything, until you have to do it, until it sinks in, right?

Penny Kirlik:
But, it's the best job, because they are... We have fun, we laugh, they ask lots of questions. And, I hope if you were ever to interview a student leader, that they would say the same thing.

Mathieu Yuill:
Penny Kirlik, thank you so much for coming on the Leading with Nice podcast today.

Penny Kirlik:
You're welcome.

Mathieu Yuill:
I want to thank our listeners. To learn more about this topic, visit leadingwithnice.com, and on our way out, I want to thank the people that help make this podcast come together, Jeff Anhorn, Andrew Park, Austin Pomeroy, they all are involved in the production of this, and I am so grateful for them. So, for Leading with Nice, my name is Mathieu Yuill, and we want to help you inspire others, build loyalty, and get results. Talk to you next time.