Insider's Guide to Energy

65 - Does ocean energy have a chance?

April 03, 2022 Chris Sass Season 3 Episode 65
Insider's Guide to Energy
65 - Does ocean energy have a chance?
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

This week Chris and Johan are joined by Jan Skjoldhammer, the CEO of NoviOcean. NoviOcean has developed the wave energy converter which delivers stable energy to the grids. The three discuss the perspectives of wave energy in the global energy system and its potential as a viable energy source. Listen in to find out more about how wave energy can meet the world’s electricity needs and which difficulties the wave energy sector faces in attracting funds and financing. 

NoviOcean’ Homepage:

Broadcasting from the commodity capital of the world, Zurich, Switzerland, this is ‘Insiders Guide to Energy’. 

This edition to Insiders Guide to Energy is brought to you by Fidectus. Go to for more information.

 | Timestamp | Speaker | Transcript

 | 09:11.28 | chrissass | Welcome to insiders' guide energy I'm your host chris sass and with me as co-host Johan Oberg. Johan welcome back to the program.
| 09:11.29 | Jan Skjoldhammer | That's that that's where I get done. Yeah. Um.
| 09:23.37 | Johan | Thanks Chris great to be on another week and we looking forward to talking to you and our guests again how you how's your week been?
| 09:32.47 | chrissass | Um, my week has been Good. You know there's this this this sick thing around europe' up right now there's covid and flu and everything going around I've I've been around a lot of sick people lately. Um, it was interesting I took my son to the doctor this morning and and the doctor said well you know it's not covid. But as soon as everyone stopped taking wearing masks all of a sudden. The flu went rampant around Woodsland and and so it's just the regular Flu. He said normally comes in the winter but when masks came off all of a sudden. The flu came back So It's been interesting. Um, and and on the the professional side. It's just been Busy. You know there's a lot going on with the energy prices are still kind of a little bit unpredictable and and the markets are doing things and from a day job point of view people want to automate and they want to make sure they have the tools. To have the liquidity in place. So. It's actually been really good for my day job as well. Unfortunately, but good for the company.
| 10:20.98 | Johan | Well, that's good I think I think it's quite interesting because we look at the situation and and suddenly well for us in the in the industry. Energy's always been pivotal but you know now it's everywhere you read about it everywhere so I actually took some time from our last recordings and went through some of our own shows. And it's quite interesting to see well forget about the first show where I was saw on that we can forget about that one but it's really really interesting, but it's really interesting to to to actually review back and and see you know the guests we've had on what.
| 10:43.75 | chrissass | Um, already did.
| 10:53.92 | Johan | We're talking about and starting to connect the pieces between the specific topics and start realizing this and as as someone that's been in the industry for a shorter period of time than most of our guests. It was actually quite quite uplifting just to have a quick review on some of the guests. It was really Interesting. We've we've done a. Pretty good Job. There's quite a lot of content. There.
| 11:13.94 | chrissass | The content is growing massively the quality of the guest is outstanding. We're very fortunate to get folks there and what's kind of cool is like tonight right? We're going to go through. We're going to talk another marine energy solution I think we're talking wave energy today. And we're starting to get multiple perspectives and techniques and and different ideas of how to solve some of these problems. So so my takeaway in the last couple of years on the podcast is you know there's there's no one silver bullet. There's going to be many solutions. Nobody's going to come win. Everything. There's no one vertical coming in. And so it excites me to hear all these different companies and different ideas and different innovation because I think it's going to be a combination is is what the end result is and we're seeing that in the in the wild right? We're seeing that with the the real real projects.
| 11:56.99 | Johan | I totally agree and I think this is one of the takeaways as well that we learned that that there's so many stakeholders in this ecosystem. But but today I think it's quite interesting as well because we break it down into something that is I wouldn't say close to my heart because it's still a very new technology. But it's very related to something I actually posted on Linkedin recently in terms of water water in general. We're very lucky to be in Switzerland you know we have fresh water. We have the these fountains everywhere where we can drink from you know, 60% of the energies produced in Switzerland is through hydropower. So. You know this is something that is really really close to us. However, we're not really spoiled with the oceans and probably not with waves either. So this is a new angle on on kind of the the water and related to energy. So it' so really, really interested to to hear more about this. We've had a few guests on on previous show I could did a. Quick review on them. But I think we gained a little bit more knowledge things are happening in this industry. So really looking forward to bringing on our guests. So I think it's time to do so. So I'll actually do it in swedish as well. I'll try my Swedish Print Analysiunation so welcome to the show where Jon heard hamma.
| 13:11.76 | Jan Skjoldhammer | Thank you Very much happy to be here. It's an honor and I've been listening to some of your podcasts and I guess from a 3 of us you are the guys that know much more about Inters Sectorctor than I do but I might know a few things about the way of power in particular. Which might be relevant to your listeners.
| 13:32.30 | Johan | Oh for sure I think that is definitely as Chris usually says we have a great advantage versus our listeners because we know you we've spoken to you and we've done some research but our guest might not so maybe so to kick off.
| 13:45.29 | chrissass | Um.
| 13:50.29 | Johan | The podcast a quick introduction who is young and what do you guys? do.
| 13:56.40 | Jan Skjoldhammer | Well I'm a norwegian and but I've been living in Sweden for the last twenty years and my background is and as an officer and having economic education then an airline captain. Um pilot for 25 years and also did a large property business while I was flying that gave me some liberty for some time and then came the choice should I be flying for the next fifteen years I do something more sensible and in my drawer I had different patent ideas laying since I was a youngster. And I had this idea about way of power. So I was weighing forth and back for 1 years and I'll go for this and and go away from a secure and nice. Well-paid job to something andsecure but it landed in that you know I wanted to do some make a difference in life. So I resign in sis. And everybody was asking. Are you crazy. But I'll do this probably for the climate and for the long term run since then I've been working basically for for ah 6 years full time almost without pay burning. Lots of my cash but it's meaningful. And happy what I'm doing and this goes forward very nicely. So it all looks very very good and I hope to be with our system in the oceans in few years in ah in a first with one you know medium size concept five hundred a kilowatt and later on our target is to be out there in the thousands. Around the whole globe on the west coast primarily yeah.
| 15:36.45 | Johan | So in terms of wave energy. We've had some guests on before as I mentioned in my my introduction. Obviously we we both me and Chris live in in Switzerland where hydropower is a big part. Ah when we had. Talk to some of the guys and when we also did some research where do you see wave energy in terms of what you do now in in this kind of maturity phase we hear a lot about the investments. We hear a lot about what is coming and the next one and the next one but where are we right now.
| 16:10.39 | Jan Skjoldhammer | It's a really good question. You know of course wind power is is the most mature one. It's been around for 40 years basically they started with a cost of about you know, five hundred Euros per megawat hour in the beginning. Then you could subsidize and learning cur now they're down to much much lower and and then came some power also with a high cost in the beginning and learning care going down and ti power is slightly head Awaypower and I've been slightly more mature way probably is coming out with many different concepts out there. No one will the commercial react. They have 2 high costs and there's probably 50 different solutions out there in development or in scientific research but less so at let's say a more mature stage. So it's coming the the potential. Is huge one say it's the largest unta energy source on the world on the planet and all basically west coast on the european continent african us or american continent Australia New Zealand Indonesia have. Both resources or way of energy and the numbers differ but it can power easily 10%. All the electricity needs but most likely much much more.
| 17:31.90 | chrissass | So So you're bullish on Wave Energy. You see that there's a lot of opportunity there. You've made a huge personal investment both financial and your time to to go start and be an entrepreneur in it. Um. So Wave Energy isn't exactly new right? There's There's been folks that have talked about wave energy for some time.. There's certainly skeptics and then there's even folks that are doing some some wave energy today. What what makes wave energy now and what makes it different. Um, what you founded in bringing are bringing to the market.
| 18:03.66 | Jan Skjoldhammer | Well there's so manyillusions out there and and and ah tongue will show which ones will be the the ones let's say that will be the make the breakthroughs I think it will be several. With a want be 50 we'll be like you know comversion down to perhaps 5 different concepts and and and what we found is that that using a different principle by going through a rectangular float and what you would like to hear now is also we have a hydropower plant. On top of the system like in Switzerland up in your mountains just took that system up from the mountains consisting of Pelton Turbine put it on a large float and coupled to hydraulic cylinder and couple to the sea floor and there we are. It's very simple just 3 larger parts. So we're different only 1 having that system patented 3 patents in 20 countries and so we are one on many but the numbers so that we have something which is quite special and it's also verified by third party companies or. Experts in Portugal and and then later on validated in our test ra and in wave tank and now went offshore again last week so it's floating outside Stockholm where youhan has probably been outside ocos barrier actually. And theirs will be for ten weeks for more testing.
| 19:36.68 | chrissass | And and has the the path to the journey been a smooth journey or is is it been is it tough to get buy in and get funding from the agencies and the research you know what? what's the journey been like for you developing this.
| 19:53.65 | Jan Skjoldhammer | It's ah in the beginning you are like ah the loan ranger you're by yourself putting in some money and you're making some applications to the energy agency for instance and then you get some yess and some Nos so you write applications here there for 4 or for grounds and you get 3 nos. 1 yes, 3 no one? Yes and that you keep on going like that and then you you can choose to take in investors on the side or go buy private money I choose chose the latter one and and that is you know my choice because I believe in what I do. And but it's nice now since we have these grounds coming in and and then of course being still the one hundred percent owner is kind of a luxury in in that way, but it's it's it's ah you you heard about? of course the the value of death which is common for for companies like ours. You have some talbet in the beginning and then you might have some some ah problems either technically or financially. But so far we've been lucky. We did the the system has worked basically from day one from the first you know that. Tank testing more than one year ago and in in the in the uk it just functions basically good of course on minor things but the principle is still there so they're kind of happy so we just work on that and larger and larger grounds and and we get calls from ah you know. Larger companies utility companies calling to us not the other way around which is nice and yesterday I called from a european investment bank offering their services and and and to us in the future which is nice. So. So far, we're quite happy actually.
| 21:44.10 | Johan | So how do you see that? Yeah I think that's an interesting part in terms of the the investments We we had a few investors on here as well for the energy market I think generally across all of our guests in all of our discussion is that there's a major shift towards investing in sustainability I Know that.
| 21:45.11 | chrissass | And and so that.
| 22:03.92 | Johan | The blackrock was quite early out and the the large investment company around this. But when you when you are approached by by investors or looking for money. What are the the main arguments because we we also see in the return on the investment as a short term you could probably could invest in wind or solar rather than something that is. More untested How does this investment work versus others or is it that they have dedicated a certain portion of money towards wave energy or or others outside of solar and wind.
| 22:37.26 | Jan Skjoldhammer | To say 1 word first is the potential The potential is huge and is a new market the giant market that's very very important this thing and and now also just to go to the latest. You know months of problems now in Europe of course the problem with with energy scarcity has been even more accentuated with with ah the problems in in Ukraine and the problems then with of course fossils or fuels coming through and the when the. Here in Sweden. For instance, you see this this wild proctuations in energy prices. So when the wind goes down prices goes up double triples and the opposite this happens. It's it's a perfect you know, ah cycle then and and anti cycle between prices and wind power. And why is that of course wind power. Ah for about ten days per month. It provides perhaps 15% of the max capacity and in those hours those days you need to have some other power coming in. And course you have some power coming in some days as well. But in total it's at least ten days a month where you have very have very little wind power and is' also perhaps ten days a month or more where you areite in Sunshine. So there we are. Have to get to you know at at present you are you are going for for fossils. But the nice thing is about a wave power is that when the wind goes down waves are still there because first comes the sun then comes the heat then comes the wind. Then comes the waves and waves that build across the Atlantic for days and distance and they remain and you can forecast them 3 to four days ahead and then the combination of having then the this synergy all wave power and wind power together will do. What fossils do today is very important so the base load of wind power is often down to 15% that means the minimum you can deliver by by wind power. So if you have 100% capacity in Germany for instance, at 1 ne day you might have 15% next day but wave power byte itself has a base low two and a half times higher. So if you had just wave power. No wind power at the same scale. You would need to buy much less fossils. But if you combine.
| 25:22.59 | Jan Skjoldhammer | Way of power and wind power that off faced your base load will be 4 times higher between to 4 times higher than by just wind power so we need to buy much less fossils and this comes also so the so-called energy independence you will be independent of the. Fossil suppliers of fuel and you have energy security because the waves are there all year round so this combination has kind of changed the I think the the outlook for our industry because all of a sudden we are much more important than just.
| 25:47.19 | chrissass | Um, to.
| 26:01.21 | chrissass | Um, types what I what I hear you saying is yeah the the variability of of wind or even solar wave is much more predict predictable and therefore.
| 26:00.81 | Jan Skjoldhammer | Say it harshly one month ago there one it was important before but now even more accentuated.
| 26:18.70 | chrissass | More akin to what we consider a base load technology because that's what what are optimal commit conditions. So in the beginning of the interview. You talked about all kinds of opportunity you you named all kind of coastline describe the perfect wave conditions for generating what's ideal. What's too big and what's too small.
| 26:37.94 | Jan Skjoldhammer | Way of our we can operate from tron time in Norway down to South Africa the whole coastline on the west side basically also some on the east side but basically on and on the west side on the Northern Hemisphere you have stronger winds. And you have stronger waves and in the center around the equator. it's it's you have longer waves you have more stable waves but the longer and they're and more shallow and then on the same on the southern hemisphere. There are like on the Northern Hemisphere so the the waves are quite strong in in Peru and an islandland in Portugal. Like medium-sizedd and outside ah, let's say west coast or North Africa they're more you know shallower but but where it stable. So for those units where you can you know adjust the the system. You can extract the same amount of power outside Africa as as you can outside islandland but for the ones having a constant size of the flood. For instance, it's it's more difficult then you have much less power outside West Africa or or outside you know we ketobe Mexico for instance. than than you can in in in in Canada I I mention that in that relation we have a system which consists of a large float. It's rectangler and also power takeup in the middle. The float is where where cheap is like building a ship. We can adjust that float from being thirty eight meters to being sixty meters depending on where you are and perhaps down the twenty five meters Alzer Island using the same machine. You just adjust the size of the float to fit those waves in those areas and in that way I can say basically the whole. Is is is is relevant for whalepower. It's it's a fantastic huge market and most people nowadays have just heard about that thing. But for the investor's listeners and even more perhaps for potentially partners like utility companies. Oil companies that want to transition to something greener and a new giant market plus then shipyard that wants to produce something else than oil rigs this is this is coming is coming to happen.
| 28:56.54 | chrissass | What depth do you anchor these at where where where you designing needs to be at.
| 29:01.55 | Jan Skjoldhammer | This this is different from different wave power technologies ours a bit depending on the on the wave heights but from about 40 to eighty meters depth this is what we inim for in the beginning we can go up to two hundred meters later on for slightly higher cost. But right now we're going to the.
| 29:20.86 | chrissass | And then are you envisioning these being like farms where where there's there's clusters of these wave devices in an area so that that's how you get to the the power levels that you want to output then by having a number of these.
| 29:20.78 | Jan Skjoldhammer | To that interval.
| 29:35.58 | Jan Skjoldhammer | Oh yes, definitely the same as wind power. Actually you just use water in instead or or wind. But the water is so much more dense water has the weight which is eight hundred a thirty times higher than than than than the wind or or air I mean and and even if wind is blowing quicker. Ah. You can have about 3 times more energy per sea area as opposed to offshore wind so you can have the same you can have this in in twenty fifty one hundred units out there which you will do is less sea area than wind power. And of course you can also combine them in the same location or on the same cable where that's relevant.
| 30:18.72 | chrissass | So so cost wise compared to let's say putting floating wind in or something like that. How does this does this align cost wise.
| 30:27.62 | Jan Skjoldhammer | All as I mentioned in the beginning and wind power had the cost of about 5 minute per megabot hour in the beginning wave of power generally now by ocean europe and other the ones estimated having starting cost from from about three hundred to six hundred
| 30:33.32 | chrissass | Um.
| 30:43.24 | chrissass | And.
| 30:46.34 | Jan Skjoldhammer | Slightly lower than than wind power and but the technologies are different and of course it's hard to be exact before you have it proven in in the waters. Ah our calculations based on space on third party and our testing shows us that we should be. Ah, below two hundred Euros per mega hour just basically from the start from the first 6 units actually below one 60 and then you have the learning curve adding on that. So after that for next 10 units. We should be below one 25 and of course the diesel costs. At those islands having distance dead rendered about 200 so even without subsidies. It's ah it's ah it's a profitable business basically from start given that our numbers are correct of course.
| 31:35.50 | Johan | So so an interesting interesting kind of concept around it and also the combination as you describe with wind and potentially solar also as the base technologies. There's a few to choose between us if I heard it correctly and obviously and strong believer in in your technology which we we're glad to have on.
| 31:53.38 | Jan Skjoldhammer | And.
| 31:54.54 | Johan | But but 1 of the things. What we also discussed on this show. It's it's not always technology that wins. It's not always the size that wins. It's also the adoption around this. so so so what I'm curious to to elaborate a little bit more on you mentioned that you could actually use it across the entire coast from Norway down to to af southern parts of Africa. Do you see any any differences in terms of the approach and the takeup at least across the world. So so that you can use wave power ah basically along all the coasts 1 thing but from a regulatory governmental investment. Do you see any areas that are leading the way. That really pushes this more than others.
| 32:35.35 | Jan Skjoldhammer | Yeah, very good question so far base short answer europe is leading ah especially ah I think you know u k with with Ireland and Scotland Wales also quite actively. But also then. France Spain portugal has been very active on this this side and and and and hall and belgian is also then they have smaller waves and Denmark has been active. So basically Europe is has been very in this for a long time. Ah, us is coming along now. Ah with Oregon with the test center up there and and and the department ah of transportation I think it's called is also adding ah funding so they're coming along and they see the potential and the need of course because. Like California has some power at daytime exceeding perhaps the needs that nighttime they have nothing and then then is fossils plus some of course on nuclear nuclear but it's coming along nicely like Australia for instance, having this vast potential. There there is very little understanding for this even if they have one of the best coastlines ever. So it's it. It's it differs quite a bit.
| 33:50.12 | Johan | So so why is this because I think the countries you mentioned California as part of the us of course you mentioned Europe and Australia they're all kind of advocates of renewable energy. They have resources probably also access to investments. But why are some of them picking it up.
| 34:00.58 | Jan Skjoldhammer | Um, yeah.
| 34:08.00 | Johan | More because they're all investing in renewable in 1 way or the other I would assume.
| 34:12.19 | Jan Skjoldhammer | Yeah I would I would assume it's it's lack of knowledge. Basically so what you guys are doing is actually breaking that that then you are making rings on the water so that more people know about this and and understand the potential and also of course there has been. Ah, quite a few failures into wave power costly ones and and for instance investors they say you know we have lost you know so many mill on this for instance, so and so on and they talk their friends and said we'll just sit in the fence and wait and and that's the you know. You and nature want to be safe. But if you want to be safe. You're coming too late to the train I had a talk yesterday with the the port of San Diego for instance very interested in what we're doing and and they want to perhaps deploy outside there. We might have a meeting with a news navy about that for instance and and I told them that that. You know it's it's important to be on the ball because if our concepts will be 1 of the good ones then after it's in the water. It runs nicely It's cost-effective then you might have you know 50 offers from their own around the world. And then we probably go for the larger ones and then portto San Dieerdo perhaps won't have anything but if they're coming along now as you said build it by the use. Take a a shipyard for instance in in that area build one un license contract for us and see how it works then you're in for the next round so sitting on the fence. Might be comfortable but I think it's very important that you take some risks and there's a potential use you gain for the climate and also for the economic you know upside both for utilities oil companies ship yourage industries. It's ah people don't know enough about this but they will know.
| 36:07.61 | chrissass | Right? So so the market's coming along. You're you're looking for some early movers You're're you're speculating that once you've vetted this that that the the larger players will will line up to because of the economics and because of the results.
| 36:07.37 | Jan Skjoldhammer | I Assure you.
| 36:24.70 | chrissass | How big is your company today where where are you guys at so you you did talk about that. You've got something in the ocean right now we we were pretty excited. You showed us photos earlier in the day of of recent deployment. That's pretty cool because I think the first time we we met you were still showing me photos in ah and a test tank. And so I was happy to see ocean behind your waves that that was ah a very impressive leap forward. So where are you guys at as a company.
| 36:45.92 | Jan Skjoldhammer | Well, it actually wasn't the water also two years ago but in smaller float zones now it's out again and and what we are we are at at at so-called trl level number 5 to 6 technical readiness level which is ah you know a 9 scale from from to start to to commercial level and that means that we have tested it in in the wave tank in in coast laboratory employment and and also in lh e in in Nas this summer. And also 2 times offshore with a 1 to 5 scale as we call it and then we're now moving over to the design of the full scale which you see behind me. It's thirty eight meters long times Eight meters times Four point five meters is a large float. The float is cheap to build It's it's not. It's cost like you know four hundred k or something like that and then we will add on the other parts. So right now we're in the the design phase for the next year about looking into all the forces and working with some consultants. So down the line a bit as well and then also with subcontractors and then we'll probably freeze the design within eighteen months from now and then start working on the construction and then test some on the on the key side outside a large shipyard most likely. And then dump it in the water in about three years from now and if I may go slightly back to Johan's questions about the potential around the oceans we are looking if possible for large partner like utility companies like oil companies and large shipyards like Damon for instance. The reason is that for the better of the environment. These companies have offices all around the world if it were together. We can develop quicker and you can use their locations and and you know connections all around to the world to deploy much quicker. It might be. Even less of economic gain for me, but it might not be as well. But it will go quicker and as the environment needs this as I just mentioned to lower the use of fossils. Perhaps by you know, a large percentage then I think these large corporations should come along. And by doing that if I may add as well. They will first of all, they will have a 10% or 10 times x factor on investment in few years like any investors. In addition, they were able to to have a transition from what they're now doing to more climate. Friendly.
| 39:30.79 | Jan Skjoldhammer | System and it can also heighten the base load. So if you are for instance, a nalo ep or ngo utility company in in Europe you're a problem nowadays because of when the the base load is down to ten fifteen percent you have to buy gas quickly. Counter for the drop in in that and your your grid is going up and down. But if you have adding in the wavepower you can also add more wind power without you know distorting the balance. But if you add moredius wind power. The problem gets even worse. So the utilities companies had this this. And bond these are going with us early and also the the odd companies they want to be greener. You can think about looking behind me having this flow to recess on the side shell renewables in a 35 times three meter billboard on the side on onboard you have ah you know politicians media. Royals perhaps coming on board even school classes that kind of of of winifying you cannot buy. It's impossible to buy that effect so by going to the osphoris you're showing that you're doing something for the climate. You're doing your best instead of just sitting on the fence and waiting. So I think we can offer both good solution. And good marketing and then also for them themselves they can do it while larger impact given that we succeeded what we do was a long answer but I hope it's relevant.
| 40:53.80 | chrissass | Yeah, so so so it may have been a bit more commercial than than we normally do on the and the podcast. So I get that the enthusiasm and the passion for the for the project I prefer to speak a little bit more generally right at the moment a bit about waves because it.
| 41:06.40 | Jan Skjoldhammer | Um, or eyes turn.
| 41:11.61 | chrissass | I question when you so when you casually say it's three years out so if I'm looking at Twenty Thirty Twenty fifty and where folks are going um is it coming fast enough. Is the technology so I get the base load I get the fact that you know turbines take a while to spin up. Gas is a very efficient way to get the base load back up when when the sun goes away or when the wind stops blowing um is three years quick enough for for the goals that that folks have set out for some of their climate change goals.
| 41:39.21 | Jan Skjoldhammer | I'm afraid not I think we are in the water with the first one in 3 years and then you go for a pre-commercial area of perhaps say you know 5 units for some some years for some more testing and to have the the the certifications by d and d for instance alloids. And then comes the larger in our rollout. So it doesn't go quick enough but of course our idea is to use licensing as 1 of the the the the way to get this out in the world. So if we instead of. Myself maybe it can we can produce by 50 year in in in some years but if you have 20 companies around the world for instance shipyards doing the same and and then they you know use the local competence or employees to to learn more about how to do this and they use the local market. Doesn't happen but much much quicker so we are kind of than than offering as one of the revenue models without the partnerships which I might thought too much about than than offering licensing to shipyards restaurant around the world because in that way they can assist. The local coastline or their their region with more power and have more competence and also have this rollout going on quicker I think that's a good model to to help the environment forward.
| 43:01.40 | chrissass | So So I get a licensing model things like that. The other thing you said earlier in the interview you you mentioned that you you are very proud that had a number of patents in a number of countries and and now we're talking licensing if I look at holistically Marine Wave Energy. How much open source and how much sharing goes On. And this technology and how much ah of of just pure science is there that you're able to leverage and how much is this just kind of building a better mouse drop. That's proprietary.
| 43:31.16 | Jan Skjoldhammer | It's a good question. What happens I think generally is is that in the beginning of of any concept like this you keep the lid on until you have the patents out and and secured and then you're more open because then it's more tricky for anyone to come In. And always remember these are a big pieces. So if someone should try to copy it. It's a bit tricky to be and in invisible out there. So So so having patents is is is very good. But of course we keeping a lid on on software for instance and and the control systems and the more fine details.
| 44:05.74 | chrissass | I guess you going opposite of my question though I guess my question is is how much collaboration is there to to get waive because I think it's an uphill battle for any 1 company right? I mean I don't think that one company dominates the world and you know whether it's solar whether it's wind whether it's wave or marine right. And so I guess what I'm trying to figure out is how much collaboration is there in marine energy I mean go on you're you're you're looking at me does that question make sense or am I the going a strange question.
| 44:31.37 | Johan | No, no, no I think it's a I think it's pretty clear and it's an interesting question as well because we've had this before you know are you running your own Silos Are you actually going to be an adequate asset to to the energy transformation if it's Siloed. Or is it actually going to be how much collaboration I think this is across all Industries. So.
| 44:51.30 | Jan Skjoldhammer | Yeah, yeah, well, there's 2 answers through there. There's ah for instance europe we have ocean and Europe which is a collaboration or a organization that we're all a member of and that one we share experiences we we we talk together and and and they work towards the European Union our commission to know you know front. Way power and title power which is very important and and we are very glad they're doing this for us when this comes from a technical side of course universities do lots of research we have ourselves have a pleasure of years with 50 students over the years and they do you know x jobs etc which is you know, basically open source. So a lot of is is is out there. Ah, but of course not all but I think most is that this basic system you can see on 50 companies how it works basically. It's just that the finald details as it was into is is more or less kept. Ah you know half secret with at least.
| 45:50.28 | Johan | So there's no Elon Musk plans here then to to drive the energy of the water energy versus the ev where just open up all the patterns give all access to everything and say listen this is the way we're going to speed up the the progression of of. Water energy or ocean energy.
| 46:12.60 | Jan Skjoldhammer | It's an interesting thought you know, um I'm into this as I said because I wanted to do something meaningful in life. Not just fly an aircraft which was of course funny many ways. So so I wouldn't be too scared about doing something like that. But. Since we are dependent on investors and we are depending dependent on on on partners coming in then your value lays in the patents. So if I open up that I think it would be more tricky to to go forward with full Speed. So I have them to further hold on to the patents later on. Perhaps when a run find it could be an option to this. Say go for it. This is a climate crisis build it. We can talk more about that later on it's ah it's a It's an interesting thought. Definitely.
| 46:55.61 | chrissass | Yeah, and and I'm from the us I'm a capitalist through and through so what I do tell young folks that are asking about going into the energy business is. It's great place to be and disruption doesn't mean not making profit I'm I'm not at all going there. I'm not saying that people shouldn't. Find opportunity I just kind of like this here because I think when you're competing for resources or when you're building market I like to see where there's collaboration in the segments in the vertical right? So in marine I like to see that that you know we're we're we're we're jointly trying to get a marine solution. If you know if and what you say is true which is saying hey it can produce a good base load and it's part of the solution then then we'll probably need multiple vendors to offer multiple solutions because not one size is going to fit all for everybody right? somebody might want to buy the. Ah, high end and somebody might want to buy an entry level and and you may not special at the end specialize at the entry level. You may specialize in you know, very you know a very specific niche That's why I asked the question. Um, so so more about the company so you you talked about having interns through how big is your company today. So it sounded from what you just described that you have. Basically the engineering and intellectual property is the core company. It sounds like you were working potentially with third parties to actually do the construction and and and execution of building these um does that mean you're a team of 10 twenty fifty what how many people work at your your your operation today. But.
| 48:19.27 | Jan Skjoldhammer | Yeah, we're 5 persons at at full time. Ah, and ah 1 doctor and most other ones master of science I'm the one without the relevant education but on the inventive mind. And and there a few things about business perhaps and and and I also like technical things and then we have about 5 more persons coming in part-time. Ah, they've been ah with us for a long time in in marketing and in a lawyer and and of course the the the board as well. So let's say templess persons in total but 5 on full time but we have to expand I think to to be able to to survive the the working hours. Basically yeah.
| 49:09.80 | chrissass | Um, and so go ahead you on.
| 49:13.31 | Johan | I'm just looking at a little bit of time I think we're we're coming up to our our Mark but I have plenty of questions I'm going to squeeze in one last one for me at least we'll see if we got some time for another one but we discussed a lot with with this transition and the impacts of. You know everything is not crystal clear. We. We all believe in in in this drive towards renewable energy. But it's not a straight road and and for example, we talked about wind power and and everyone wants wind power but not on my backyard kind of a thing when it comes to.
| 49:42.99 | Jan Skjoldhammer | Are.
| 49:45.56 | Johan | To to your technologies and this is also infrastructure as I see that the picture behind it that means that it's going to be outside on the on the ocean fronts. What? what are kind of the conceptions here and and what are the feedback from from tourism tourism from people. How far is this is it is the same impact as wind is are you gonna.
| 49:51.71 | Jan Skjoldhammer | Um, yeah.
| 50:05.30 | Johan | Come across that resistance or is this different.
| 50:09.92 | Jan Skjoldhammer | That's a very relevant question. You know I'm from noralway and and and I hear my my friends in Norway they are you know having a hard time with wind power when it's next to their you know cabin or house something like that and of course we need wind power. It's it's ah it's a good soldier. We win energy. But way of power is different because it's it's out to to see from five hundred meters from the coastline if you have a very steep coastline perhaps up to five kilometers in some areas but it's hardly I visibleible and it doesn't make any any sound that can disturb anyone and it doesn't hurt any in any animal life. So and is stable as as mentioned before so so in my mind I can say what more can I ask for if then the cost comes down to be comparable with wind power or even lower if it is stable out side site doesn't make any sound doesn't hurt animal life. It should be exactly what the world is is is is looking for and also if I might add that for instance, Sweden you had the wind power up and north then we have transmission lines going down to the south and of course you're losing energy on that distance most people live along the coastlines. So where you can have the power coming directly into the cities on the coastline is much better than having long transmission lines going through europe for instance or through your country. For instance, it might be windy in Sweden and it might be calm in Portugal but and and and and the opposite but just. Transporting all the energy over that distance would mean a loss of perhaps thirty forty percent plus it will take lots of lamb moss into you know question which is difficult again. So in that way. Also think wave power and ti power has an advantage is it's just close to the coastline and close the cities.
| 52:00.65 | chrissass | Well you on? Do you want to squeeze anymore in or you got any I mean I mean to me you know I think that I'm still bullish having gone through this interview I like hearing about the wave energy I Wish it was sooner.
| 52:01.57 | Johan | No I think that was a good answer to.
| 52:17.73 | chrissass | Um, yeah, what? what? I find as being in the industry and talk to professionals many. Don't believe things that aren't here yet. So folks that have been around the the power industry for Trump's time period of time they they want to see the the actual product to to actually start believing that it's coming or that they can start forecasting for it. Um, but it it does some seem like it could be a potential element if you were talking to someone young going into the the industry today. What would you recommend if they had interest in and marine and wave what how would you direct them? yeah.
| 52:47.16 | Jan Skjoldhammer | Well I talked a lot of my students about that and and and I said that that you know working for us for a while is good to learn about renewable energy because this is the future and and there has been the last you know 2030 years has been the it sector. There has been the the robbins one for the investors. But I recently heard one of these large and investors saying that that that time has is slightly behind us now it is the deep tech. You know, mechanical things or deep take in renewables which is a new blooming sector. Could be a transition also for the investors to see that well you know we have Spotify and the other ones and it might be a few few more ones they could be that this is all changing to more more and more on the deep tech side. So I would say for people coming into this business read on learn. Work for if you like wind power and mature industry but perhaps look for our sector is a new one. It's more exciting. All my team is worried I want to go go go and they're very happy to work with this because it's it's new is renewable is green. You know is. What more can I ask for as the young person or anyone wanted to be into something which is meaningful is right here.
| 54:03.77 | chrissass | Well thank you so much for being our guest on the show I am looking forward to watching this journey as insiders guide to energy and seeing as it progresses. Thank you so much for being our guest today.
| 54:13.85 | Jan Skjoldhammer | Thank you for having me.
| 54:17.35 | chrissass | And for our audience you've spent another hour listening to insider's guide to energy. We hope you've enjoyed this content as much as we have if you have don't forget to subscribe. Don't forget to like or make comments about the content you will get responses and we look forward to speaking to you again next week bye bye

Market perspectives
Optimal conditions
Leading nations
NoviOcean’s strategy
Will wave power be deployed fast enough?
Advantages of wave power
Recommendations for people entering the industry