Chris and Johan are joined today by Tucker Perkins, he is president and chief executive officer of the Propane Education & Research Council (PERC), an organization authorized by the U.S. Congress with passage of the Propane Education and Research Act (PERA), Public Law 104-284, signed into law on October 11, 1996.
Broadcasting from the commodity capital of the world, Zurich, Switzerland, this is insider's guide to energy.
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Welcome to insiders guide energy.
I'm your host, Chris S, and with me is co-host jo'burg you on what's happening.
Hey Chris, great to be on again and enjoying another sunny day in Switzerland and and looking forward to a show that I was a little bit anxious about actually, because we're now digging into topics.
I am in deep water on, but extremely interesting to learn more about this.
I assume you have a grill on your deck.
Probably do and everything will be clear.
But right now I'm a.
But This is why where we have the show, you know this.
Well, I I was a little bit skeptical, but I I.
Is why we do it.
Do know that I spent some time living in New Hampshire and that I heated my house with propane.
I used propane for my house because they didn't have a natural gas choice at the time and.
I also look.
At things as living in Europe right now and look at this coming winter and kind of wonder what's going to happen 'cause.
We really don't have pipelines that are going to provide reliable gas to much of Europe.
So it should be interesting to see what the North American perspective is and to go there.
And then what's really interesting to me is when I think renewables.
The sustainability propane never crosses my mind to be totally candid and and I think our guest today may help me see a different picture.
Maybe not, but that's that's what I suspect will happen.
So that's what?
I'm hoping will happen today.
No, and I.
Agree, I think for me personally, I I think I just want to learn the basics.
You know, what is it?
How does it work?
Obviously more a little bit more deep dive than the basic, but you you get my drift.
But also understanding.
What role would it play?
You know, we talk a lot about the decarbonization, we talk about sustainable energy in the future of microgrids.
We talking about the new A&G ecosystems, really curious to see where propane sits.
This one, yeah.
I think that's important.
I I know that many of my friends generators for their house when the power goes out happen to be propane today that that happens to be where they're they're generated when the when the grid goes out propane seems to light up their house again.
So it'll be interesting to see how this play, but I'll turn it back to you.
And I think once we always say why, why speculate anymore, why don't bring on the experts, that's why we have them on the show.
So what I would like to do then?
Is welcome Tucker.
Perkins, President and CEO of the propane education and Research Council.
I hope I got that.
Right, but welcome to the show.
Johann Chris loved to be with you and I was biting my tongue through that hole open and just wanting to jump right in.
But I'll wait.
I'll wait just a moment.
So let's kick it off.
I'll start with a blank canvas.
Give me the drill down propane value of it.
Where do we start?
Well, I think.
It's funny, everything Chris was saying I think is right.
Most people don't really think of us as beyond the fuel that powers their grill and in in in America or in North America, we tend to call it propane.
The rest of the world calls it LPG.
And and we often aren't really thought of being a big solution in this environmental and energy conundrum we find ourselves in, right. We we have been about 2 1/2 to 3% of the energy mix. That seems to be about the same number whether we're talking about the US or the world.
Yet the statistic I always find interesting when I do the numbers we touch somewhere between 50 and 60% of the world population, always beyond the natural gas may.
Being but a.
Long history in engines propane or LPG has been really the most widely used alternative fuel and a strong #3 behind gasoline and diesel on worldwide and Europe certainly knows it as a vehicle fuel, you might know it as a fuel and.
Supply chain for cliffs, material handling in general and then as Chris said, backup power generation.
But we really have been ready to move beyond that as as we're looking for the perfect fuel when we think about the climate.
Think about greenhouse gases.
Low carbon fuels like propane offer a tremendous solution, again beyond the natural gas main to actually not only reducing greenhouse gases, but, when compared to diesel or gasoline, massive reductions in pollutants that harm our health.
Health and then generally solutions that we can afford.
So it's it's been really the right time to talk about how propane fits into this new conversation we have.
So that leads me then to the question, why don't we hear more of it, you know, even if it's two 3% as you mentioned, but you touch such?
A big part of.
It and the way you see it it.
Is will be a.
A big part, or at least a part of the the carbon free or the carbon neutral energy world.
So why don't we hear more?
Great. I really think.
It comes back to the way we distribute it and you don't, you know, certainly electricity is distributed by massive utilities, natural gas is by massive utilities and propane is generally always a byproduct of natural gas.
So generally the people who find produce.
Distribute natural gas will also have propane.
Visions, but it's just always been kind of a secondary backup fuel.
And frankly I think today that plays to our advantage as we think about systems of the future that are likely not to be a mono fuel system, they're likely to be solar wind in partnership with something else.
You know, we've never been.
Electricity or natural gas, we've never been the dominant player and now as we think about these modern systems, particularly residential, commercial power generation.
Typically we're we come to the table ready to work with solar and wind, and be one of a.
Number of fuels in the system.
So I think as we even look forward that previous, if you will, weakness, I don't know there was a weakness, but it was certainly we always coexisted with other fuels now proves to be a real strength.
So I guess.
The question that I have is what I said in the opening is when I think Green, so if I think of carbon reduction or you talked about wind and solar.
You know, I don't think.
Propane, so help me understand how it's a greener or less have less of an impact on the environment than other gases or other fuels.
Well, one propane has no methane.
So it's really a in fact, a big article circling the globe right now about how propane is perhaps the perfect refridge.
It went because of its low global warming potential.
But, you know, I think that's that's where the narrative to me has been so wrong is that in order to achieve a clean climate, we must eliminate fossil fuels and we must go to electrification.
Well, that's wonderful when the form of electrification might be nuclear or hydro.
Or solar wind, but that's not really how we do it today, right? A lot of it is coal and oil and wood. And so I'll use numbers 'cause we study the US grid extensively.
If you take.
All of the fuels that go into producing electricity in the US grid today, the carbon intensity eventually computes to about 100.
The carbon intensity of conventional propane is 80 so.
On a grid basis, propane is almost twice as clean in carbon intensity as the current grid.
Now it kind of ranges from Vermont, which is almost exclusively hydroelectric and wonderful.
A lot of states have a higher than you would expect proportion of nuclear.
But still, I'm shocked how much electricity is generated in the US from coal and oil. And so I'm always struck the narrative today is in order to get to a clean climate, we need to replace.
Fuels with modern electricity.
I'm quick to say coal, oil and wood are pretty dirty electricity made from colorland wood.
It's equally dirty, if not worse, because of the inefficiencies of the production, so the direct use of low carbon fuels.
As far as I really want to talk about, there only two propane and natural gas.
Have the ability to decarbonize today and again, I'm pretty happy talking into 2040, maybe 2050, and I'm quick to say, you know, beyond 2050.
We don't really understand I think where hydrogen might be, where batteries will be, where some new efficiency tricks and that's been our game all along is working on the efficiency of our technology, which is the final piece of that puzzle is we we are actually able easily to replace diesel fuel in so many environmentally.
Sensitive applications that that's where we really need to be talking today.
It would improve, it would improve the climate.
It would quickly improve health and I think it would actually speak very much to justice as we think about redeploying investment, so really almost.
That's not new, right.
The perfect question.
I mean if if you think about it, I I'm, I'm not particularly old, but I'm not particularly young, but propane buses have been kind of you know, they write clean on them.
They've been around for a long time for cities.
Just last year I had an Italian intern that worked for me and he would drive over from Milano to my office in his propane powered Italian sports car.
So I I don't think that's a new user and uncovering it, yeah, I mean I I I've seen propane buses for a.
Long time, right? It is.
You know you're right, but what I think what is new is and and as we think about and again the European condition was always so diesel centric where in at least North America we tend to be much more focused on gasoline but.
For years, a diesel fuel was was efficient and a diesel engine was quite durable.
So for decades really we've been working on thermal efficiency and durability and what you're referring to, everyone was driving gasoline equipment that was modified.
Operate on propane.
Today we begin talk about purpose built, purpose built engines that for the first time ever and we're in a partnership with Cummins where we demonstrate it now.
We're going to production in 2024 is our our current estimate, but we have beaten the thermal efficiency of diesel, matched the durability of diesel, yet 25% cleaner in greenhouse gases, virtually 0IN particulate matter and frankly at a cost that everyone can afford.
And with such a simple.
Emission system, it's the simplest of three-way catalysts. So what you are correct, propane as a vehicle fuels been around for, I don't know probably 70 years if we're really honest. But this latest generation is more thermally efficient, more powerful and frankly more clean than anything we've seen.
So when we look at this, we we've done quite extensive on electric cars and electric vehicles and we're talking about this change in mobility.
And just for from my information when we.
Look at the.
Vehicles or the the areas that you're talking about now, where do you see that applies?
Is it in in your normal cars?
Is it in cargo is?
Where do you see the propane?
You know, it's, it's clearly where we can feature that energy dense, uh, need.
So not passenger vehicle.
And I would.
I would often say not passenger vehicles at all, but I'm quick to say there's still a movement around high idle, high mileage things like limos, taxis, police fleets.
But our, our very core of our emphasis is on vehicles where payload and range matter. Vehicles that are generally in the US, we call them Class 4 to 7, but anything that's delivering goods, freight, you know running long distances, irregular routes where batteries.
Just really aren't feasible today.
Maybe they're not feasible because the range is too much, or the temperature is too cold or too hot.
Maybe the payload is too great.
And almost in all of those cases, the economics, I mean, we school buses are a big deal for us and I kind of have those numbers on the top of my head, an electric school bus cost.
Four times the price of a propane school bus.
I would argue at the end of the day and the grid mix is about it can be a wash.
The emissions profile is almost similar for on a full economic cycle, so there there the answer is for the same benefit, one product is 4 times more than the other and I'm quick to say.
I don't really care whether you take a propane school bus or a diesel school, excuse me, or an electric school bus.
What matters is that we get rid of the older diesel engines at four times the rate.
That's the benefit to the economy and to the climate as well.
But, but you know we don't in transportation we're certainly not thinking about consumer cars. I know in the US we've kind of crossed that 5% sales threshold which would imply you're moving.
You know you've hit that first breakthrough in the in the Chasm of Innovation, but we we certainly in work.
With lots of clients who have to deliver goods everyday, care about the cost, care about the reliability of going 400 miles today and 200 miles tomorrow, that's our, that's our.
Market I would.
I would say if you give me an opening, you know, we're on a worldwide basis, we're talking about shipping more than ever.
Ships needed to move away from bunker fuel.
I fought myself.
It would be LNG, but we're seeing a fairly strong migration to propane fueled ships and then lastly massive movement.
Around the ports and material handling and a massive migration in power generation.
But so far what you've said from my like, bunker fuel is pretty easy to be.
It's pretty dirty, nasty stuff and everybody knew it need to go away at some point, right?
So whether it's hydrogen, whether it's LPG, whether it's propane, the bar is pretty pretty easy to get under there to, to, to improve at least.
Uhm, I guess I wonder in just the last thing you said energy production.
So, so I did he to house with propane, right?
I I had two I think £500 tanks or gallon tanks or whatever they are buried in my yard and I heated my house up in the northeast with because I was like no gas and electric would be too cost prohibitive.
At the time of where I lived.
What innovation is taking place for that kind of situation for heating or powering someone like me who is kind of in a rural state that didn't have all the infrastructure where I lived?
Yeah, well, I mean if you let.
Me step back just a couple years.
First innovation was.
Appliances, whether it's to heat your water or to heat the air that are 95% or more efficient and that's.
That's been a relatively new thing, but if I kind of step right into today, it's around particularly in the Northeast.
It's either really a combined heat and power systems, and the latest would be, and again, not a big thing in the Northeast, but micro cooling and combined heating power.
So units that residentially or commercially produce about as much power as you need, maybe a little bit more, maybe a little bit less.
Highly efficient, allow you to live kind of off the grid if you will, so that that's kind of our latest innovation.
But in the residential or commercial as we talk about building net zero homes, again as I said we love to partner with solar particularly there, so using.
Propane with efficient generators if hot water heating, probably cooking, and then whatever backup would be to your primary heating system.
That's probably the the systems we see today, more sophisticated people, bigger homes, maybe they have a swimming pool they want to heat.
Then they're automatically thinking about combined heating and power units and.
Not only are they very efficient devices and cost effective, they're really good for the environment, again compared to electricity.
We everything I talk about really is compared to electricity, and not just how electricity is made today, but we even begin to think about how electricity will look and we've modeled what most of the utilities say would be their optimum mix.
For a renewable energy for their grid.
And we'll talk about it in a bit.
That's why we finally start looking to our own versions of renewable fuels 'cause whether whether we're getting there with Vermont today or Kentucky 40 years from today.
You know, we if we're going to be a fuel that's good for the climate, you have to reduce.
And that's how we that's how we eventually walk into renewable propane.
You keep giving the example.
If we do this and we do that, help me understand who we is.
I understand you're an association, but help me understand that we who's driving this, this initiative.
So I work for a company called the propane Education and Research Council.
Will never sell a gallon of propane.
Will never buy a gallon of propane.
We don't sell appliances, but we're working not only nationally but worldwide with a consortium of interested people.
So it could be Ford Motor Company, it could be General Motors, it could be Deutz, it could be Cummins.
It could be wort silly.
Uh and and all.
You know, a bunch of household names, like those people that make furnaces and water heaters.
So in the we there that we as always people who are interested in making their appliances better, it could be builders and contractors and.
Plumbers and electricians that are installing this stuff.
So that we is a large way that we could also be the the propane industry on a worldwide basis as particularly as we talk about renewable fuels.
Renewable fuels wouldn't be unique to the US or unique to Canada. It's a worldwide thing and there we work closely with.
Every continent propane providers on every continent.
And actually alternative fuel and renewable fuel producers on every continent as we think about what does renewable propane need to look like, what are the feedstocks where the process is, how do we get it to the market at scale and at a price people are willing to pay?
So that's an interesting part. So obviously we're seeing this transformation not only in Europe where we sit now, but especially in the US there's a lot of incentives coming out from the government as well where which is probably going to change.
The landscape that we never seen before because it's it's a massive investment in in terms of the the climate bill but it's.
Not whatever it's called.
How do you work with this?
How do you ensure that?
Because if it's it's one part of this new ecosystem, propane fills a specific area.
It has a value moving forward.
So how do you ensure that this is also then part of where the investments are going moving forward?
Because we talk a lot about two things.
Well, three things, it's solar.
It's wind and it's batteries.
And you feel something.
And then obviously you throw EV's on the side of it because it's kind of a solution to it.
But how do you, how do you make sure then that propane sits within this and?
And you get your share of voice.
So, well, we are always working to that share of voice for sure.
And I think I would say for years we haven't had share of voice and and we maybe just.
In the baby just steps of share of voice to.
Today, but one of the ways we do it, I mean, to your point is we're closely work with Department of Energy.
We closely work with the national labs.
We just jointly did a report where one of the national labs came out and it just came out last week that talked about how to make renewable propane and is making renewable propane.
Economically viable for the producer of renewable diesel or sustainable aviation.
Fuel, but we don't talk about it much and you don't read a lot about it coming out of Department of Energy or you don't for that matter, even Cummins, you know, engine company.
But I can tell you, you know, inside both we have a lot of alliances and a lot of projects where we are working together, Department of Energy.
Did just happen to underwrite several of our prod.
Dex one, which is exactly what we've been talking about, where they will use renewable propane in a university setting to power the University Childers and that and to really gain good experience showing not only the emissions but the cost benefit for a renewable propane.
And you know, really a almost an industrial setting to to power the university's grid.
You mentioned the agencies right, at least from from an American perspective that we have and in the pre call we talked a little bit about.
Policy going on?
How does propane fall into?
The latest policy, that is.
Just going through the US government right now.
Well, I mean the numbers that are on top of my head then we're still trying to dissect exactly the inflation Reduction Act, which about 370 billion of that really is intended to climb.
The rest of it is really healthcare and a few other things. But if I go back and look to the previous bill where we really kind of have clarity on the numbers, about $9 billion of that was directly applicable to propane projects, whether it's school transportation or transportation uses port.
Uses or even developing a more robust infrastructure to use propane vehicles across the country.
And you know, I think we would always wish this administration was a little bit more proactive in thinking about decarbonizing today.
And I do think by the way, this last round is a little bit more.
Realistic about decarbonizing today, but it doesn't make the headlines.
But we see this Department of Energy.
This administration really thinking about how propane and natural gas have solutions to decarbonize today, and we're getting our share.
I mean the good news is we don't ask for much, right?
Most of our solutions we are able to fund and most of the solutions we're talking about today are fairly shovel ready.
Now, you know, lots of innovation going on and I could talk about let's let's do talk about renewable propane eventually, but even as we think about you know maybe everybody well beyond hydrogen.
And nuclear, we're even trying to understand how propane fits in the hydrogen economy, and it's quite likely.
I mean the the conventional wisdom is will produce hydrogen where people may not be and will convert it to ammonia.
That's easily to transport.
The similarities between propane and ammonia are striking, right?
And we're in a few worldwide test pilots right now where we do produce hydrogen.
Convert it to propane and then use the transport to propane easily.
So, so much innovation at the forefront, but right now we are straight forward thinking about it in three uses.
So is it transportation, though?
Truck basically or ship is it is it big containers like like how I used to get it to my house or a big truck comes or how do you normally?
Transport the propane you liquify it and test.
It can be.
It can be in it.
That has been the beauty of propane, right?
So easy to transport, low pressure, not really special.
Steel transports as a liquid, so whether it's in a small truck, a transport truck, a train car, or a ship.
I mean that is the beauty.
It's so easy to transport, which is why we've always existed beyond the natural gas means.
And excuse my ignorance, but the energy density of propane compared to the other fuels you mentioned, how does it stack up on that?
Twice as dense as natural gas, half as dense if you will as diesel fuel.
So it kind of kind of matches.
Gasoline somewhere is about the same.
So, but I mean there's a good example for years as we thought about positioning propane against diesel fuel.
You know, we were trying to achieve diesel like mileage and now for the first time we're getting the thermal effect.
We're matching thermal efficiency that has 22 great impacts. One, we pick up our miles per gallon significantly compared to diesel and secondly, we cut our cost and 3rd we.
On a cost per mile.
Most fleets that move from diesel to pro.
Historically, they cut their costs in half. Today they're cutting their costs by 75% just because propane hasn't seen that run up in price like diesel or natural gas has for that matter.
We're we're at a really wonderful sweet spot in our pricing spectrum today.
So is this something?
That also relates them to the OEM's.
Because one of the discussions we've had and one of the thoughts.
This is obviously we come from one side, which is the end in the industry, OK?
We we know how to produce the energy, we know how to transport it, we know the density, we know the value of it.
And then you have the other side which is actually application, which is the OEM's and they might not think in the same kind of lines that we do or the energy industry do. So they say, OK, I want this kind of, I want diesel.
Or I want a battery driven car?
Or something else?
So how how does this?
Relationship works because the OEM.
Are they leading this one they decide where they want to go or or is it, is it is it enough of an economic from from from the propane or from the battery so from the diesel to actually check to affect the OEM's who kind of who kind of has the leading bowl here?
It kind of goes.
Back to Chris's earlier question, all which is.
Who is the?
We you keep referring to.
Because it generally is done in a partnership and I love to talk about Cummins as someone 'cause I'm so familiar.
With that you know clearly they see long term of you or hydrogen might rain where battery electric will need to rain, but they know it's not ready yet.
And so we've been working with them for almost 8 years because they could see that diesel emissions were eventually going to become so complex.
That diesel fuel?
Might not be a relevant fuel and so they they saw propane as.
An intermediate step.
The issue for them, and rightfully so, was they didn't want this rehashed gasoline vehicle that was just modified.
They wanted that same Cummins quality engine with that same power and reliability and warranty and and so it's been a painstaking effort, but now we're at the final.
End of that where they can produce this purpose built propane engine that exhibits many of the features and benefits of their diesel technology using another fuel that would be the same conversation on a worldwide basis with someone like yourself.
Well, who has really seen how their engines can handle multiple fuels, making sure propane is one of them.
And by the way, we're all kind of scrambling now as we think about how does renewable propane fit into this, how do renewable propane blends where we match with renewable DME and and so we're in those kinds of conversations with.
You know, household names in this space at least like were Scylla and Siemens and, you know, packaging manufacturers that manufacture off grid microgrid packages and that kind of thing.
A lot of work.
All the way down to household generator names like Chris mentioned earlier, like Generac Briggs and Kohler.
I kind of wonder, so we're talking transportation and I see the use there also in the pre call we had talked a little bit about the situation at Ukraine and probably opportunistically if I look what's happening in Europe or what I expect to happen in Europe this winter.
How are you responding?
I mean LNG is certainly responding that that's certainly a strategy.
I think terminals have gotten completed even since the the war started.
I think the timing is good. In some LNG you certainly see the trading of that and and Europe's maybe need for that.
How is propane going to play in and do you see with the cost of energy and opportunity in countries like Germany that burn a lot of coal to get oil from, you know, Russia and other countries in Europe?
What's what's the appropriate association doing there and is it going to be part of the solution?
Am I going to start seeing propane solutions this winter to help help with the the problems here in Europe?
Well, I do think sadly everything, I mean we need all the solutions available to the people of Germany, France, you know that that whole, you know the Great Britain and so certainly propane is, is migrating over there.
You read about the LNG trade moving from predominantly East Coast to Europe, but.
Propane is following and propane will be used in multiple ways there one.
And I think people realize that we often take propane, mix it with air to make the equivalency of natural gas in a blended system that's going on.
And I think propane will also begin to replace some of those uses for diesel fuel and natural gas beyond those means.
So yeah, and we're we're seeing the migration of propane.
Over into Europe, just like we've been seeing the migration of LNG.
But are you seeing a dramatic uptick in the last few months preparing for this winter or is there demand of ships and?
No, not really.
Not just in the last few months for a bit longer than that, but.
You you see?
A pretty strong export and propane has always been, you know, exported where we're the US propane industry is the predominant supplier to almost all of Central America, most of South America most.
Of Asia now and now we're supplying as much as we can into.
Is it less?
Expensive because I know just filling my grill up here is multiples more expensive than getting a propane refill in the US just to get a tank to to run a grill.
So is it going to be cost competitive or is it going to be part of these, you know, ridiculous fuel prices that people, if they can get power, are going to pay this winter?
Well, I think sadly it's going to, you know, all things are kind of benchmarked off natural.
Gas to it.
Which is why you see fuels beginning to be exported over there.
So I can only talk, I really don't follow the international market that well in terms of pricing.
I mean you you see our natural gas US pricing is significantly less than European natural gas pricing right now and and propane oddly enough.
Has not had that big run up in price relative to diesel or natural gas.
And so I I think as we get closer to winter, the general expectation is you'll see these prices continue to rise, but I do expect.
Propane or LPG is it's certainly known in Europe, you know will continue to be exported into Europe and be a part of the solution.
I think sadly, sadly for Europe right now it's it's really 3 components, right.
It's first having supply in order to get through the winter, the second is trying to control the cost and then the.
3rd feature is can can we protect the environment while we're doing it?
And I think most people right now are thinking about security of supply before they think about the.
The other two.
I think that's I.
I think you're totally right on that one is, it's a question we've had on on on multiple discussions in terms of what's going to give in.
So we talked about sustainable, we talked about the transformation to renewable energy and and and the carbon neutral neutrality.
But then we had came into a situation in the last couple of months and suddenly what's going to give in?
And and the question we see that we're firing up more and more coal in Germany for example, now when there's no nuclear as well.
So I think there is a little bit of a challenge here, but with your experience that you've been in the industry for a long time, you, you obviously is an expert in propane, but you know the rest is.
Now, how do you see this coming along, maybe from a European perspective, also from a UX perspective?
Do you see that we're we're starting to look into more literally what I'm trying to say?
Are we slowing down the shift to carbon neutral or to sustainable energy right now, or is it just a?
Glitch well, I I'm always quick to say.
I don't think using propane, in fact, using conventional propane today, using renewable propane tomorrow, I don't think that's slowing down the shift to reducing carbon in the atmosphere.
I actually think that.
Tends to be.
Accelerating the shift, because what we can do is quickly displace those.
Fuels that we're using.
Today, and you know, I look at the the EIA data that comes out of the US or I look at the IEA data.
That comes worldwide.
You don't see a big fall off in oils and coals, right? Even if you look out into 2030, you see those projections are relatively flat and I think what I keep saying.
And have been saying now for a couple years, and the more I studied the data, the more I want to say it is.
Using low carbon fuels like propane and natural gas in place of higher carbon fuels like coal and oil, or dirty fuels like wood.
And certainly we're going to talk as much about climate as we are about health.
With particulate matter, there's a great opportunity to get to a lower carbon future faster using propane and again.
I don't expect propane to replace the local natural gas utility or the local electric utility.
You know where I see tremendous improvements and now I'm beginning to see the implementation.
We already produce most of the power through the.
Caribbean, we're like I just back from Puerto Rico where there we are producing power for some large industrial facilities manufacturing because they want to control their power generation, they want to control their price and by the way, they're doing it in a cleaner method than they were doing it before, so.
How did you?
Do that there, right.
So a lot of island nations use diesel typically, which is dirty and expensive, but the governments tend to tax that very heavily.
And so part of the reason for the transition we've done shows on that.
Is being slow.
There is not that the people don't want to have cleaner energy, but but it funds a lot, right?
There's high tax on that diesel coming in.
So how do you get around that and change an island nation to move to propane from the diesel coming in?
I guess I and that's funny, I don't know the answer to that as well as I should, but we have not had any economic barrier to bringing in propane.
So tremendous environmental.
Benefit and you know the Virgin Islands kind of started that Roatan Bay, Honduras, kind of picked it up from there and we see the laid in cost of propane into those island nations significantly lower than.
That of diesel fuel.
You know so.
Did they buy all new infrastructure?
Is the generators completely from the ground up for propane?
Are they able to use the diesel?
Infrastructure they have.
It it can do this depends.
Ward Zola could kind of runs on a variety of things.
Siemens can run on a variety of fuels and and so it just kind of depends on what that base technology was.
But most of these plants, they are putting in new infrastructure and new equipment 'cause they're really looking for this efficient, you know, you'll talk about.
Not seem to say the same things, but you'll always hear me talk about looking for these efficient solutions as well, because those are the ones that are going to be able to run for decades.
Uhm, but yeah, we and again I see this migration towards not, not massive power generation, not GW scale power generation, but you know microgrids and you know our typical systems might be 100 kW, but as we move into industrial situations we put in a bunch of half.
Gig systems that seem to provide not only economically beneficial power, reliable power, but.
Uh, environmentally favorable power.
So if we set.
Aside the discussion we had before label, we jumped forward a little bit around the the Ukraine and the situation in Europe for the moment.
But do you see any regional differences in in the adoption of propane moving forward?
Is there any, we mention the islands now which is quite interesting?
Oh yes, I see a massive regional, I mean.
And so I see a massive regional difference.
I mean, First off, let's go to, let's go to Africa just for a moment, to the developing nations that are coming off oil.
Wood or dung there, you know, we're in the simplest forms of just home cooking, using clean propane or even some.
Small versions of poverty and massive improvements to the economy, to the environment, to the health and being of the family as we clean up the air and save, you know what we think to be 2 to 3,000,000 lives a year from indoor air quality.
So that's one end of the spectrum, and it's happening in front of your eyes right now with massive support.
From the United Nations, you know, we kind of look to Europe maybe or Asia on the other end, very sophisticated CHP systems, very sophisticated power Gen.
Nation that again propane has a strong role beyond the natural gas main in America exact same we're we're in the.
To use a baseball analogy, not great for all Europeans, I know, but you know, we were really in the first inning of A9 inning game as we think about power generation, transportation and the next way we use propane because now.
We used to.
Only talk about portability, versatility, and perhaps.
Now we probably lead with is this good for the environment?
If they can say yes, then we say can we afford that solution as that solution was and how do we do it and that's where we are today.
But clearly we keep coming back power generation, transportation and material handling in and around the ports.
Those are the three markets without, without even stepping back from our court, traditional markets of residential, commercial and agric.
I think you did a really good job in that last sum up 'cause I was, I was texting you on the side saying we're running out of time on the episode, but I think you brought it nicely together for us to take us through through the journey.
For me, it's been eye opening 'cause.
As I said when we first talked about being a guest on the show, I really didn't know what to expect.
Uh, I think I have a little bit better understanding, Johann.
I I leave it to you to bring closure to the show, and then I'll sign.
Us off at the end.
But I I agree with you, Chris, and I'll wrap it.
Up fairly quickly.
I I think as I started out in the beginning, I was very nervous around what propane the areas of it, where does it sit for the future it gave me.
A very, very good overview of this one and and seeing that this fits into it and I'm also quite interesting to hear that it's actually ready into the infrastructure.
The risk, that was one of my questions as well, which always eluded little bit in the back end, but I thought it was fantastic.
I thought it was great input.
I I also like as we always say we like people are passionate about their thing and and there was no doubt about passion in this one so.
Really thanks Tucker for joining.
A pleasure to have you on inside his guide to energy.
I've really enjoyed the time with both of you and look forward to kind of staying connected over the years a lot, a lot of innovation and a lot of new things, both for propane and really for competing fuels.
Well, Tucker, thank you so much to our audience.
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