This week Chris and Johan are joined by Eric Gosseye from Engie. Eric has an engineering background, with record in project management in the energy sector. In this episode they discuss how green energy is changing the renewable energy sector and even coming close to the solar energy competitor.
Broadcasting from the commodity capital of the world, Zurich, Switzerland, this is insider's guide to energy.
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Welcome to insiders guide energy.
This is Chris as your host with me co-host Johan Aubert.
What's happening today on?
Hey Chris, great to be on another great week coming into the full you can you can sense it in the air and you know we've been talking on.
The show for quite a bit.
Once we get into the full, what will happen with the energy markets and what will happen with this?
Reply so I think we got the first couple of weeks here.
Now we're starting.
To to see a little.
Bit how you been doing?
The irony is I'm sitting in Houston, TX with my air conditioning running right now, so it doesn't feel like fall here.
It's it's beautiful, hot and sunny.
So coming from Switzerland down to the Houston for meetings, it definitely was it it it.
Doesn't feel like fall out.
The moment, but I'm super excited.
We we have a guest.
Actually, I tried to interview him when we were last week in London.
We we had an interview but the recording didn't go well so we decided to do it recorded as opposed to the live interview from Utah.
We're going to talk to a guest about hydrogen today and about he's from Ng and we had a great conversation about.
About hydrogen, and we're gonna try to relive that, but fortunately you get to Join Now because we're not doing it recorded anymore.
Which is great.
And I missed the the traveling, you know.
We missed the world this year.
And I missed.
Commodity week, and now you're in Houston.
You know, I need to start picking up on going to these events as well, but I'm glad I can be on here today.
Well, I'm in Houston. I'm planning for our live event October 28th where we have that live student event at energy trading, trading week in Houston.
It's going to be an amazing event. We expect about 100 students from the Houston area to be there, so it should be exciting.
But let's focus on today's content, because I think we.
Have a fantastic interview coming up?
Like to bring Eric Casa to the program.
Eric, welcome to the show.
I'm hungry will be there.
So I do apologize for mispronouncing your company name 'cause I saw your eyes roll when I said that, and I know.
We had this conversation last time.
But what I'm going to allow you to do is introduce yourself so you don't have any mispronunciations and maybe tell us a little bit about what you do.
Thanks Chris. I'm gonna say I'm working in N G4 and G in Brussels and I'm an engineer by trade.
I'm calling on mastering engineering.
I did about 10 years as a project manager in the energy sector for a large scale project for Tractebel engineering.
Following this I I didn't in intrapreneurship or things.
The right translation in English in engines means launching an innovative idea inside energy Company I was working for with with a bunch of colleagues in in the hydrogen sector in the sustainable and low carbon hydrogen sector.
So this was about six years ago.
And this is the reason master and management that I completed about the same time off from new bridge to go to the asset side of engine inside of energy developing this exciting future large scale sustainable hydrogen production that that's that's all the hype about in the energy.
Vector for diversifications by in Europe and other reason and the capitalization.
So it's about 6 years now I'm working on this first there was as well we couldn't architect that means we are really defined for our business developers the best way to answer the need of a potential client from from the supply of electricity down there.
Value chain retail version until the delivery to the client, which could be heavy duty, which could be industrial, which would be energy sector.
So it's really exciting to do all the value chain and check after the costing and so the finalization of this of this.
It's very recently I moved to developing partnership with large industrial partners for making this project happen faster and more efficiently.
Some steam engine.
So I'm excited.
To talk about hydrogen one.
Of the things you said in your introduction just a second ago that raised red flags, you said, you know, it's kind of like the hyper.
Or it's early?
So I guess to start the conversation, we're talking high.
Virgin where is hydrogen today? From your perspective and your organization's perspective? What?
What's real? What's and I'm?
Talking green hydrogen I suppose when I say where is hydrogen gas hydrogen?
Been around a long time?
Where where is green hydrogen today?
Uhm, green hydrogens.
Just on the brink of passing the threshold, the the threshold that the soldiers went through in the in the early 2000.
When when I entered filled in 2016 in Ng, it was just it was more of a high because a consensus understanding that we have to go that way to grow in the hydrogen and to use hydrogen to replace or to to replace a lot of hydrocarbon usage because you can't do everything in electricity.
With direct Rification, it's just not possible.
And so engine was one of the first on the board.
So we started at that time to study the ecosystem.
I value the value chain developed for a large scale industrial production, and that's big for small scale projects.
To, to, to evaluate the technologies that we would have to, to invest, which we are in the world, we should produce, which wear out, transport it.
But the problem, yeah, for taking off was really the competitiveness with fossil fuel and one of the society to go that way, to do really decarbonize and make.
An effort for that.
'cause the like I always say between the picking up on the on the on the tree, which is like you're pumping oil from the ground, it's not the same then growing the tree yourself and it just be that where we have to go for the sustainable hydrogen industry.
So it's not using much more work.
It's at the beginning at least more expensive. So now we are passing a threshold since there is this array which is voted in the USI don't know if you heard about it, the Inflation Reduction Act which would give a huge boost to sustainable hydrogen by giving kind of creating a really level playing field with foresight.
So you have a de facto market now and you don't have to talk about anymore.
So much about competitiveness with foresight.
Hydrogen you have to talk about competitiveness between the different sustainable hydrogen which which are blue, Gray, green or all the colors of the of the rainbow.
And, and also in Europe, we have this right like to act renewable Energy Directive we should create, not an incentive to produce as the RA is, which is.
Production tax credit, meaning incentivize you by giving you money when you produce sustainable hydrogen.
In Europe, we take the other way, we take the cut away means we really create a market for sustainable hydrogen, which only sustainable nitrogen can fulfill.
And that's too weird to create a market.
But that means that now we read the threshold, it's nearly sign where.
It's stable averaging we'll have this market obviously.
So the Reduction act in the United States I think is about a bike $9 billion investment over time by the US.
Government if I if I recall.
And and so one of the things we've had other hydrogen guests on the show, we've talked hydrogen before is the cost of hydrogen needs come down, right?
So renewables work well when they make business sense.
The doing it just because and especially if you look at the current economy where people are, doesn't seem to make sense.
So are these incentives enough to actually get these?
Projects, you know shovel ready projects going at this point is is it are you seeing that in your organization, are you seeing projects that are really moving now that weren't moving just weeks ago?
Clearly he changed the mindset of investors.
So in our organization, we have a NGS worldwide industry.
If I if I may.
So it's a we have 4 branches renewable power production and then we have the consulting branch with the engineering and coming from initially.
Any of the branch which is the asset which is electricity line and gas pipeline and then we have the large centralized.
Projection assets, which is the point, right?
Now which is this?
Development of large scale industrial production of sustainable hydrogen, but also there was a gas power plant, batteries, battery systems.
So we've seen undecided joining this pipeline worldwide of hydrogen production which was kind of developing but.
It's it's hard to sign you know because the the kind customer is always right.
Yeah I'm I'm not sure if there's market behind I I don't know how much I can factorize this green hydrogen.
Regulation is a moving target, so you only go consigna a business model for 15 years if you you don't know or where you put your feet.
So you need the regulation to be to be clear on it and and this has been moving target until until now really these are is a changing factor and the red too.
There's still some discussion, but hopefully being next year to be finalized, the European Parliament made making full to made a vote to push it in the right direction in much more efficient way.
So yes, although now we really see the the focus same changing in region but also the.
The industry willingness to go forward and also I.
Think the very harsh summer we had this last year or two also make a change in the public opinion.
Because you speak about the 9 billions, it's enough.
Uh, uh, rule of temple. Not engine numbers, but the usual consulting numbers. It's that you need for one MW of electrolysis you need $1,000,000. So one giga Watt of electrolysis you need 1 billion.
If you see that the target in Europe is to have 40 GB by 20 by 2030, that means that this 9 billion can already cover 25% of the cost of these 40 gigabytes.
So you imagine it's really huge incentive means that one quarter of your business.
Model is already.
Covered, we see also industry ready too.
To be training.
For the airlines and others are really coming and saying, yeah, we, we need green Greenfield, all customers are now the minds have changed.
The customer, mainly corporate customers are really ready to pay for this.
So this this Greenfield even.
If it's more.
Expensive, even if it's.
345 times more expensive, depending their production.
Routes. They are ready.
So yes, the models are definitely changed.
So, so a quick question there, Eric, if we can, if I look at sustainable hydrogen versus green, can you just help me to kind of clarify what we're talking about here when we talk about sustainable?
Because there seems to be slightly different in vocabulary.
What is actually green, where it's actually sustainable and what is not?
So if you can help me just kind of explore a little bit on that.
I'll, I'll try to be.
Simple, because actually it's these naming convention are not already costs not already covered model, it's a it's moving targets also due to regulation the basically sustainable means.
Every the the impact on greenhouse gas emission.
But also all words are wrong like land use.
Use a food chain and all that is is very reduced and sustainable, something we can sustain a long term, I mean in decades, while green is so usually restricted to hydrogen produced by electrolysis, meaning splitting water molecules.
Using electricity from renewable energy, that means running on this intermittent, cheap, intermittent renewable.
This splits the ordered water molecules through electrolysis.
Which is a process for you.
Like huge stack of electrolysis.
To produce this hydrogen and oxygen and.
So there is.
Different color growing renewable electricity.
We speak sometimes like pink, which means nuclear electricity, which is also very low in Tier 2 emissions.
You have blue.
Some people speak about blue, which means actually you used usual technology of splitting, meeting natural gas, so a fossil fuel.
But you capture the CO2 and you inject it back into the ground.
To hopefully store it there for the centuries to come.
And that is blue, so this is our rainbow.
You boys all qualify them as sustainable.
'cause I I read an article in CNBC a while ago and when I was looking at this there there's this plant in Shell in Canada that that ran a kind of carbon caps.
Hydrogen production and.
They did some research on it and there were actually, if I'm not mistaken or if I read the article right, that they're actually emitted more greenhouse gas than than they actually captured when they worked on this.
So, so surprised me at a little bit in terms of, OK, we invest in all of this, but is.
It actually working the the.
The one thing the green I can understand.
But the the rest is that's kind of a.
A way of just moving the needle.
If it is, it is.
It enough or is green the the way?
I could be seen as slightly partial partial on that because I'm looking for an GNG.
We target only hydrogen based on electrolysis using error linear virtual renewable low carbon electricity.
That means, yeah, whether we open to trade good blue allergen, but we don't want to produce it.
Yes, there is a risk with broad region and world.
Because there is meat in slip when you slippage, when you extract the natural.
Gas, so you have.
Some some meeting leaks and this is.
Very powerful greenhouse gas emission.
Uhm, then you have the the capture of issue 2.
You break the.
The the meeting in the furnace and usually their part of the CO2 is not captured on the part of the CO2 which are of the natural gas which is used to heat the furnace.
Produce very until you tap here to the outlet.
And this part is usually we don't people see that industry don't foresee to capture that.
Form or if they want to capture it. It's not 100% of it because you already do it and it's very expensive to capture.
So usually they capture more that the process part. We need the meeting that is the CO2 which come from the cracking, not from the heat. So it's a bit technical, sorry. So yes.
We missed it.
Here too, and often this you choose also useful hands oil recovery, meaning pushing more oil from the ground and you know really capture if you use it to push more oil.
No, this is a moral question.
And I say I can be passionate.
Question so I I. I.
Don't want to debate the color-coded and how green the hydrogen is because I I think there is a use for hydrogen right?
What would be interesting from your perspective, where is hydrogen going to be used?
Were you seeing it being used?
What are the early movers of where it's going and?
And where does it fit well under our our strategy?
So I what I heard you say early in the interview was electrification.
Yeah, that's one of the part of the strategy, but it's not the whole solution.
And you said, OK, so I need some sort of molecule perhaps it would like my translation is to to do things so hydrogen in the case of this conversation.
So where do we use it?
The hydrogen is.
Already widely used.
So, so at least replacing today's hydrogen usage it's not possible directly propagation which is you use it for chemical.
So you know.
We can't create plastic out of electricity, so yes, by electrolysis and producing hydrogen, but you never know.
So, so I don't think it's already a strong base chemical.
For all the hydrocarbon, plastic and another compound, so it's using refinery for sure to create today's fuel to crack the heavy molecule to make lighter molecules which are better for you.
So this part can be partly replaced by electrification. So electrification with a lot a lot of sense for a lot of application like low grade heat meaning 100 degree or a bit more.
It makes a way for very high grade heat, like 1000 degree and more than electrification.
Of its limits.
So again, we fell back on renewable fuel.
If that means hydrogen, this is the base molecule for fuel.
Then you have the mobility.
Mobility for sure, like mobility, batteries with the job, offshoring or your car.
We will do perfectly.
For heavy duty mobility, on the other hand, it's not only the cost of the efficiency of the few rich code.
So, so the, you know, the time to refuel and that try to join is much faster or hydrocarbons built from sustainable hydrogen, it's much more efficient in refueling time, in power density, it's much more efficient.
That means aviation.
For example, we probably never take off on something as in kerosene or similar molecule for short haul.
Yes, yes there is options for for for individual plane, for short hop, on hop.
Off that that.
That could be maybe of batteries or liquid hydrogen.
But Karazin will remain for a medium to long haul flight for heavy duty usage like a train pusher where the decline and they not electrified.
For heavy duty trucks, we have to do 2000 kilometers for with a with a payload heavy payload. Again, hydrogen probably will be unbeatable.
But you at least have dielectric city.
So that's where we see hydrogen taking off mostly.
It's no, no very early niche market for sustainable chemicals, sustainable or green steel.
Sof obviation fuels the usual suspects kind of with premium products but needing requiring hydrogen and where quota.
I improved all the RA would be we working in the US.
Because that's OK for.
Because we see it.
Do you have projects you're currently working on?
That or do you?
Have testbeds or things that you're currently doing in this space today.
And he said our.
Project we're working on and which are public we have with this project of producing kerosene in France based on water electrolysis and carbon capture.
We have this project, very one.
We did a lot of publicity because, you know, big toys for big boys is the mining track in South Africa.
This huge mining track, so this one engines are providing the hydrogen to fuel trucks.
It's producing the hydrogen on site in the mind.
Very Russian but rough environment.
And it's a lot of learning for us for the whole chain are from product for electricity supply until the hydrogen filling in the tank of.
That's covered by energy.
And we have this project we just sign and restarting realization it's to supply hydrogen in ammonia plant in Australia in the Pilbara.
So that solution for a lot of learnings for energy.
Since it's a.
Nearly off grid, which means that we're running electrolyzer like it will be run probably when we.
Go to the GW.
It's running in an area with very good renewable and very nothing in terms of infrastructure.
So you don't have the network to support the variation in the intermittency of the electricity.
And no, you really have to.
Rely on your yourself to to make run the whole show from reinstalled or renewable solar panels, the battery to cover the gaps in production in renewable, the electrolyzer and then the injection in the ammonia plant from Yahoo, our partner.
So yes, we've survived.
So it's Romania, project methanol.
Project all around the world.
So there seems to be.
There's no limit I I guess we we've had others on the show as well when we talk about new deployment and and and it's nothing new but they're coming more and more areas where deployment you mention their aircraft, we we've seen in transport, we've seen in in industrial et cetera, et cetera.
I think Goldman Sachs, OK, I'm not a big fan of all these reports that comes out 'cause someone paid them, but at least they're looking at something around.
Moving today from a total market cap of was it 125 billion to a trillion dollar. Whatever it was in in the X amount of year, the hydrogen will be the next big big.
One of the big one in this energy transformation, but one of the things.
That, I wonder is.
That's on paper so.
So it sounds good and we have the applications but where do you see, is it feasible, can we, can we produce, can we distribute, is the infrastructure therefore to actually take it to this scale and if not where do you see kind of the, the, the, the?
Hasn't Gates where we see the challenges in terms of because this is not a small little growth this is.
This is substantial growth and and that's usually comes with challenges.
Uh, uh, I think point.
And actually like mentioned, we are like no.
In in the deliverables and it'll be very.
The world started to take notice.
They understand that we have no choice.
We have to go towards at any point hydrogen because it's it's the basics of our economy, which is an hydrocarbon based economy.
I draw carbon, hydrogen and carbon.
So hydrogen and hydrogen with carbon capture makes we have no choice.
We have to use it for a lot.
Of our space if we are serious about globalization.
So just, you know, you reach the politician understood that the phrase the IPCC report may change the mentality.
Now we have this strong hit in the energy market mostly, mostly in Europe.
That change their mind.
So, but we are point exactly where the technology looks ready. So it looks it's not fantasy anymore, you know the technology is really actually it's 100 years and that the policy is spreading in large scale.
And the first fertilizer plant was based on electrolysis.
100 years ago.
We just stopped because we had cheap gas, so we.
Say oh, it's cheaper to.
Do it with gas and these electrolytes.
But no, it's restarting.
And the the technology is ready in terms of production carbon carbon capture on SMR, it's ready, we can do it.
We can do electrolysis, there's no problem.
We can do renewable electricity to a very cheap, very cheap price in some region of the world to feed this huge industry.
So that that's not the problem anymore.
Now the problem is to.
Drive down the cost first for the equipment production and.
Just just to give you an idea, we we say driving down the cross it means a lot of money to to you know to to create a skin effect in the industry and some quick calculation we did, it's secure.
We want 40 giga Watt in Europe of electrolyzer by 2030 and 40 giga Watt outside Europe to feed you. That's 80 gigabytes.
That's one of.
Them 80 billion to install them at today's price or if we don't consider a cost decrease.
In the meantime.
80 billion worked as huge, but then you compare it Europe.
Before the pandemic, just for crude oil.
In one year.
Spent 300 billion.
So Europe spend about.
Four to five times that that money in one year just to import crude oil.
That doesn't count with a natural gas not counted in just crude oil.
So it's say it's not such a big step forward.
Yes, it's a big, it's it's some money, we have to find it.
It's probably going to impact the taxpayer in a way or the consumer.
If we want to in the European way, it's more the consumer we have to pay, so you have the choice.
Now we can consume less, take less the pain, for example.
But but the money it's possible it's it's not an amount of money which is.
Incredible two together. But so the first step is Redis massification of the demand and we are, we are the right way, it's 9 million in the US, this which probably will be extended later on. This quota we will create in Europe which will force the consumer to.
Pay the price for us.
Small amount at the beginning I should like, I don't know, five, 1020% of their. The consumption will have to be green. That means an increase of their price by maybe 1020%.
For some element, but then the money will be there in the massification will come between now and 2030 in terms of production assets.
Now the the really big hurdle, it's really fixing.
Actually it's not question of investment, it's question of fixing the regulation because everyone and mainly now that we see the end of the tunnel, everyone.
Is depending on.
Ready to sign some huge contract, we drop hundreds of MW of electrolysis.
But you just can't sign because when you don't know exactly the rule of the game, you can't finalize your business model precisely, and then there is too much uncertainty.
You don't sound so.
It's really regulation.
It's not investments.
Regulation, first problem, once regulation will be there, market will be there and investment will come because when there is market, there is profit.
This means there.
Then the second problem if you.
Want to really go?
Really large scale and to go really cheap, meaning targeting the place where renewable electricity is really cheap.
You have to go for infrastructure and infrastructure.
Here is the data investment is really, really lacking.
This is not only a question of putting money again, it's a question of limbi factor.
It's a question of HORIZANT time origin.
Only a state, at least the way we seek in Europe only a state, a national state can develop a a large scale infrastructure that will be required like words required for electricity, high voltage or lacquers required for natural gas.
You need the support of a of the state because its 10 year, 15 year plan it's.
Many newer, very difficult permitting process.
A lot of hurdles to overcome.
A lot of.
National policy, you know, each time you have to cross the border of a state, probably in the US, same step we have to pass from one state to the other and different regulation are exactly the same. Interest of the different state are not exactly compatible.
So it's really infrastructure, which is Latin, which is really behind in terms of a vision and planning for investment.
You, you talked.
About the economics, and you basically said OK, the economics aren't so great the the consumer is going to pay one way or the other whether it's taxation or whether they pay based on consumption model.
What I heard you say, then you went on to say policy needs to support it.
So we we started the interview talking about a few initiatives, showing some policy.
Being in the right direction, you you're saying you want the nation state to do that.
I guess on the actual technical side though, a couple things that probably fall within your real.
So, so let's assume those things get worked out over time, or if their desire is there to.
Do it with.
Things like storage and transport.
You talked about infrastructure, right?
And you know to me the things are well where do I produce this this green hydrogen or where are those assets at and if you, you mentioned you know uh, mine?
Somewhere, kind of remote.
You're producing some green hydrogen there.
And then you talked about some other things, so maybe cover those things.
Wait, what's the philosophy? You.
Guys have on can we store this stuff?
We produce it locally, do we?
How do we transport it?
Those kind of questions.
It's a question of environment where what you want to do is it and where you want to use it.
You have to know that if.
If I start by the beginning, participate in our side in any organized religion prediction green nitrogen Pro.
Action if you put a solar panel in in, in in the Netherlands or Belgium where where I'm sitting or if you put it in North Africa the.
For the same.
Solar panel we can produce three times more electricity in the north half of Africa.
So where do you produce it?
Ideally where Henry Energy is extremely cheap.
So for us in Europe for example if you take the European case, if you need a hydrogen molecule itself.
Because ultimately is very hard to store and you can store it for a few hours if you if you have a client consuming hydrogen or a refueling station consuming hydrogen.
You can store energy in this computing station or next to your plan for a few hour of consumption, maybe a few days if we've sold cavern like we have in net for the natural gas.
In Europe, maybe, yeah, we you can cover your consumption of a week.
Not more, really.
Remember I hydrogen gas is from super hard to stop.
So you have to.
It will produce it locally just next to.
You and in a state.
So that means in Europe you have some places we just try to trick where you have this very good renewable or we can do it in a nuclear if you have it.
Now, because that's baseload there, like the Netherlands, we have project also for example Engine Portugal, because these are really good place.
For renewables, then, the next step if.
You really want to classify.
Outside of this strategic pockets, you for Europe for example, you have to import it from region with very, very good renewable.
That means developing infrastructure if you want to import it gas.
Is like pipelines, it's the only good infrastructure to to transport very huge amount of hydrogen.
But through whole Europe, if you want to feed today's industry of ammonia production, chemical production in Europe, you would you need to do a full pipeline network from from the north of Africa to Germany.
So that's the next step in terms of massification of pollution and transport then if you want to go even further afield or if you want to distribute it.
And store it for long term then you have to go liquid.
Hydrogen like we?
Went for LNG, for example, for the natural gas to make radio worldwide mark.
Or you have to go toward hydrocarbon like did the nature, Mother Nature did not.
But it is.
It's a liquid.
Expensive in terms of energy to produce, I think.
When we've talked before we.
Talked about this is it needs.
To be very.
Cold and it there's an inherent amount of energy used to liquefy hydrogen, yes.
That's the thing, it's it's about I would say two 2020% more energy to liquefy the hydrogen to produce it and then you go for it only 20%.
So yes, it's it's a lot of energy.
But if you do it in a country.
Where energy is cheap.
And for example, three times cheaper in Europe, it totally makes sense because you you increase your consumption energy by 20%.
Let's say you have after the loss of the transport and all that because you have to burn some of the psychology and to move the sheep for example. So even if it's 30% or 40% more expensive to import it in liquid.
It's still cheaper than producing it locally, so it's not a question of environment and conditions.
So liquid agent makes sense since it's the same for the carbon capture and usage when you link your hydrogen recio 2 that you capture either from industry either from biomass later.
Direct air capture like like we are studying already for preparing the the really, really sustainable carbon cycle.
It's it's the same.
You lose part of the efficiency.
But nevertheless, you can produce it in region where electricity production is such cheaper than in order that it makes sense to transport, to improve the transport and to create the molecules there.
Yes, storing gaseous hydrogen.
It's better than electricity because you can grow these to a few.
Days of your consumption, but it's still really hard.
So to really store it for long term, when I speak about weeks or months, you have to go toward liquid or toward really carbon capture and recreating hyper comma.
So one of the things we've had I think on the show as it's a red thread throughout is that we see a lot of new technologies.
We see the mix between new technologies and old technologies, but what we're also seeing is the growth of networks like almost like the ecosystems around this corner.
Partnerships called ecosystem because one can probably not do usually you had one big plant and you can do it all, but now you see more and more combination.
How do you see that?
In terms of in.
In terms of the partners that you're working with, the ecosystem that you're in?
It totally depends the position of your of your industry.
As is Angie, we are mostly at the moment on the renewable side.
We are used to operate large assets, usually for doing gas to power.
Now we're doing power to guests just reverse, but it's managing basically here the electrical market in one hand and the feed stock market the other hand, so.
Is this really our our DNA in energy?
And so we are an integrator of existing technologies for example energy or so that's good to know.
We we don't really cheap flop our own equipment and we've always been an integrator thinking that competition do his job most mostly on this kind on the equipment side.
So but how we structure the industry I don't have.
But what we see is.
That really the everyone will bring his own break.
For example, NGS competence in developing renewable assets in best region, best condition and to manage the electrical market around the electrical stability of huge plant running electrochemical languages which have to manage this intermittency of production.
Then we also play our role is integrator of partner technologies, so part of bringing that technology to to direct release itself.
To do the carbon capture, to do the the conversion I would say power 2X or more like gas 2X when it comes here 2 and hydrogen gas transform it in the next molecule which can be like we say kerosene which can be diesel, we can which can be fertilizer with nitrogen which can be.
Chemicals for your.
For all industry, plastic industry, so they needed partnership too, and then there will be others.
They will be the partner for the transport of these molecules, mainly at the beginning, which will not be like.
At the beginning transporting these some of these green molecules will not be a commoditized market with ready made infrastructure everywhere.
So we probably have to build partnership project specific.
So if everyone would pay a it's actually a lot of players are already existing in the fossil industry.
And they will have to adapt the business model and adapt their maybe a party day infrastructure to just now do the same job but for renewable and sustainable molecules, so and.
One big adaptation for that it's work and managed intermittency.
So that's that's really a big change for the industry.
When when you.
Talked about adaptation, you mentioned earlier about salt caverns in Europe is as a way to store it to store LNG or hydrogen, right?
I think is the way I understood, unless I misunderstood.
So what kind of adaptation would you?
Do and I.
Know from our previous conversations you you do partnerships there and you need work.
For folks, doesn't LNG storage facility work well for hydrogen?
Or is there actually something that needs to happen for these caverns to be changed other than changing the gas?
You always need to adapt the the infrastructure around the suit carrying itself.
Issue is working for hydrogen.
There is a we are we are assessing the at the moment how much contamination these bring to the hydrogen gas because we produce hydrogen by electrolysis.
It's extremely pure, or when you want it in your fuel cell.
After if you move your.
Bus or your or your truck.
You want it extremely pure, so we're checking a.
Bit what impurity?
Seep into the gas and diesel, Karen.
We have this hipster project in energy in France, which is actually a project financed by European.
And so this this is working what you need to.
Change is mainly.
The wellhead, because natural gas.
It's a much bigger molecule meeting than hydrogen.
So it's all the sealant sealing system, pumping system, these have to be adapted it's minor competitive price you know building this old gathering the shaft or or the mechanical infrastructure around and.
So it's a minor investment.
Where the investment could be bigger is clearly in a pipeline and for the transport, because π prime is new steel pipeline as useful natural gas are not ready made.
For hydrogen you may need some coating or you need so to replace some part, so that's not ready made.
Is there? Is there?
If we talk about energy security in the current world and current attack on pipeline, Nord Stream pipeline and other.
So, so pipeline sounds less exciting at the moment if it's, if you're talking about energy security, if you're telling me you're going to produce this stuff in a nice sunny part of Spain and then you're going to pipe it all around Europe, aren't we going to be in the same place we are today potentially with hydrogen in the future if we do this?
Uh, I I start by telling the daily sweet spots around Europe.
So there is sweet spot where we produce locally hydrogen and this is strategic, it's not only a question of economics and agreed that you point on it, lots of this project in Europe or if you do technical economies pure and.
It makes sense for a very short term, like 5-10 year, because indeed there will be no, not much competition from a time to put infrastructure in place and the transport in place, there will be no much competition.
But on the very long run.
It's true. Europe is.
A hard place for energy.
There will be competition with the electrical market which we demanding this electricity.
Any publicly readable for it?
So yes, from a strategic point of view, it makes total sense to develop this hydrogen project in sweet spot in Europe, like the Netherlands, like I mentioned, like hydropower in Switzerland, like wind generation or so in Scotland and UK.
So Spain, Portugal, then we switch power strategies, but totally made sense.
And then after the advantage, yes, Brightline, you you can always sabotage any kind of infrastructure.
So I'm not going to enter that debate, but the point is you can diversify a large sources renewable energy it's.
Not like gas or oil.
It's not a deposit, but it's a.
Bit similar, and that's where the resource is, is extremely diverse if you take hydro, wind, solar, maybe cheap liquor in the future.
Uhm, you can produce this hydrogen in many, many many different region and therefore you can increase tremendously your security of scribe, because if one node is correct, if there is instability in one region, you can count on many others.
Cool, I think this is.
Probably the the interesting one of the more interesting things as you said because there are sweet spots and they're divided across rather than having secluded areas that that has all of it.
So I think that's quite.
I I know we're.
Coming up to time, but I.
Still have thousands of more questions.
But I'll try to wrap it.
Down to to to a short one.
But one of the things we we looked at the Inflation Reduction Act in the US, and this is set.
In hydrogen will.
Be a big part of all this, but.
Do you see?
Do you see a?
Little bit of a fight between because.
There's a big investment, governments or cities comes in.
And do this and we see the rise of nuclear discussions across Europe as.
Well, and and, do you see?
That there's a.
Little bit of fight now, who's going to take the money?
Or is it that there is a dedicated money for hydrogen specific?
You speak about the army?
I I I don't.
Have all the details, but how?
That work, sorry.
Speaking about the IR.
Yeah and and and and in general as well, you know everyone is going to do the energy transition.
So we need to to become independent of.
Of fossil fuels and and you see in Europe the strategy.
Is quite different in.
Terms of how to approach it.
I can't tell you because the fine print are not there in the RA, as in the European regulation.
Uhm, seeing the amount of money proposed, we don't think it will be a.
Fight for this money at the beginning.
But at least it will help to really kickstart large scale projects.
In the US.
What would be the fight after is more actually it's such a good support in the US that producing the newest for other part.
Of the world makes a lot of.
Friends too. So we have to show that evolve. That's more like that. I see it in between Europe and US. Europe is creating and creating a market by putting quota.
US is creating a production capacity by putting subsidy to production. So it makes a you know perfect transfer funnel between USA and Europe. So we'll see how that plays out in the in the.
Regulation unnatural US would be happy to subsidize green, green economy in Europe. And I'm not sure Europe would be happy to see all this production capacity running away in US. So let's see what happens.
Yeah. No, thank you.
Well, fantastic. I I.
Think it's been a fun conversation, a journey I I'd love to spend more time, but I think we're pressing up against time constraints here.
Thank you so much for joining the podcast today.
Thank you very much for inviting me.
Thanks, Eric. Thanks.
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