
Over Here, Over There
A comparative culture podcast including panel discussions, interviews, short clips and monologues with leading professionals and commentators from around the world discussing how we see others and others see us.
Over Here, Over There
He's Back - Like It or Not
Summary
In this episode, Dan Harris and Claudia Koestler discuss the implications of Donald Trump's inauguration as the 47th president of the United States. They analyze Trump's speech, highlighting its populist and divisive nature, and express concerns about the potential impact on international relations and democracy. The conversation also touches on strategies for political resistance and the importance of unity among moderate parties to safeguard democratic values.
Takeaways
- Trump's speech was marked by populism and divisiveness
- The feeling of a breakup reflects the current political climate
- International relations may face significant changes under Trump
- Democracy is fragile and requires constant vigilance
- Moderate parties must unite to counter extremism
- The importance of clear communication in political messaging
- Trump's authoritarian tendencies are a cause for concern
- Europe needs to strengthen its unity in response to U.S. policies
- Political resistance requires strategic organization and collaboration
- The next two years will be critical for U.S. politics
Sound Bites
- "It feels like a breakup."
- "Democracy is very fragile."
- "Keep the patient alive."
- "There is lots to talk about."
Partners
Evenlode Films and Productions
Chris D Projects Ltd.
Dan Harris (00:02.774)
You're in the right place. Hello, I'm Dan Harris. Hi, and I'm Claudia Köstler. You're over here, over there. Welcome to Over Here, Over There. I'm Dan Harris, joined by my co-host Claudia Köstler. Today we're discussing what many people in the world have just witnessed, while others deliberately not watched it. And that is...
Donald Trump's inauguration as the 47th president of the United States. Claudia, what's your reaction on this momentous event, especially on Trump's speech? I really want to know.
Claudia Koestler
Okay. Well, he'll get a very raw and very personal, not with my journalist hat on because I'm here privately, but holy cow. I mean, I was a little bit nervous beforehand and all the way watching it, listening to it, I got more and more nervous. Like I was getting a bad diagnosis at a doctor's office and you kind of realize immediately that this is something tremendously changing your entire life. Whilst the other part of your brain denies it and still seeks out for, there must be something good in it. Come on, come on. It won't be that horrible. It won't, can't be, can't just not be that horrible. It was.
Trump's speech was Trump 2.0, very divisive and textbook populism, I'd say. He portrayed himself as a champion of the common people, and claimed to be the sole representative of those people, rejecting other viewpoints. And he simplified so many complex issues and he mastered the appearance of being the strong man in a way...
Dan Harris
There you go.
Claudia Koestler
Constantly contradicting himself in a way. mean, basically to sum it all up, remember last time when Bush actually said that was some weird shit. This time I'd go a step further and say that was horrendous shit. And I feel like I'm being a person that has been morphed into a history book on the day that the US has turned sour. I feel like on a bad breakup with my favorite person in the world.
Dan Harris (02:23.798)
That is very interesting the way, that is, you know, sitting over here outside the United States and that is well put, that is well put. It feels like a breakup. There's a disengagement happening, isn't it?
Claudia Koestler
Yeah. And I've mentioned it before, he contradicted himself so many times and he claimed to be a peacemaker and unifier. My ass! Everything else he said was just the very opposite of that, you know?
Dan Harris
Like he was going to take Panama.
Claudia Koestler
Absolutely. And this entire America first and now, you know, renaming the Gulf of Mexico American. And he seems to be determined to rewrite the rules of international engagement single-handedly. mean, this doesn't align with any good leadership models in my way because they're bringing people up to your level and seeing them on your level and not being the superior all the time, the winner, all this strongman shit that is going on now, which means it's always a very bullying power game. And I don't think this is good partnership in any way.
Dan Harris
No, it was that word bully is that really comes to the fore, doesn't it? When you listen to that speech and the way he also played the victim as well, know, saying I got shot in the ear, the weaponization of the DOJ, that won't happen again. bringing law and order into the streets. Well, you know, frankly, most crime in the United States under Biden has gone down. And also the economy. Yes, it did have a peak of inflation after the oil crisis caused by the Ukraine-Russia war, but it's gone down. It's at a manageable level, down at some very low rates. And Biden has had increased jobs by 12 or 15 million, where he lost jobs, or allowing for the COVID crisis. Before and after that, he lost jobs. He was in negative territory as far as creating jobs go. anyway, I agree totally what you're saying as far as my impression was he wanted to put himself as the strong man. And it also bordered on culture war. know, he, lot of those things, and this is how he won. We know he won because they played the culture war, the Republicans, and they did it a lot better than the Democrats.
Dan Harris cont. (04:46.988)
So he went down through the list as far as ending the woke agenda, ending, he said, social engineering into private life, make it all merit based. And there's only two definitions of gender and that's male and female. And that has a lot of repercussions and we'll see how it plays out over the course of the first six months, at least in a year, see what happens, what he's putting in place for that. And of course, defeating America's enemies, he said. So like you said, I agree with when you mentioned peacemaker and unifier, but just before that, he was talking about defeating America's enemies. did you notice that he didn't mention, didn't catch it at least, Ukraine or Russia, or he did mention China, of course, to criticize them.
Claudia Koestler
I didn't catch that either.
Dan Harris
Yes. I think that the difference also between him and Biden is, I saw this quote by a congressman, a democratic congressman said that Biden really tried to promote American values, but not American power, where Trump is promoting American power but not American values. I thought that encapsulates it perfectly over the last four to eight years. And now we've got another four years of power over values.
You know, when we were talking about Henry Kissinger after he passed away. he played power politics, power politics with Henry Kissinger was we're for you if you support us and democracy, whether you're a dictator or a democratic leader.
That's how Kissinger played it in his foreign policy where here it is with Trump. It's, you suck up to me, if you flatter me, I'm the leader and all power resides from me. And that is really the definition of fascism. Fascism is the absolute power of the state, which is embodied by its leader. So if you listen to that speech, those echoes are coming back through that. And what that means, you could really see what we're getting at when people say that he has authoritarian tendencies.
And now he's really trying to put it into practice and we can talk about how he's going to do that later. still, how do you think this will play in Europe?
Claudia Koestler
Good question. I think most European leaders are worried and the potential erosion of rule-based international order is probably coming. And Europe as such needs to address that. We already know that he's cozying up to.
Claudia Koestler cont. (07:08.522)
authoritarian leaders and he has a disdain for institutions like NATO and the EU. So there is an existential threat to European security and sovereignty. I absolutely believe that Europe must, you know, gear up in a way and get together and try and unify even more and not break up over the course of the next months and years to come because some might cozy up to Trump, others might try and find other ways. The strategic control of their own countries, putting that first, let's put it that way. So there is a lot of potential for further division instead of unifying voice. So Europe must find a united voice and backbone. And that is hard to come by.
Dan Harris
I agree because what Trump would do and what bullies do is they seek to divide and pick on the individual or individual countries. And he didn't mention NATO. didn't, least I didn't catch it. didn't hear much talk about Europe whatsoever in the speech. No common cause, no protecting democracies around the world. He just talked about protecting American interests. And he did mention... Yes, mostly economical.
Claudia Koestler
Drill, baby, drill.
Dan Harris
Yeah. And he did mention one time that protects the Constitution and of course, how ironic and I'm sure there were groans in certain parts of the audience there. It's something that Europe has to really, I agree totally, has to stand on its own feet now. And I think they realized that. I think they're probably even game-playing this now as far as how we do this, how do we deal with Trump and how do we protect ourselves because we can't rely, we can't trust. We can't trust the U.S. and from that speech given, there was no hand of friendship that I saw extended to Europe on that one. If I were the Baltic States or one of the frontline countries towards Russia, I would be concerned that nothing was mentioned and no support, no nothing. So I think he didn't want to disturb the horses just yet, so to speak, at this point, but I'm sure it's coming.
Claudia Koestler (09:27.04)
Absolutely. I fully agree. And we are talking much about Europe, but I do think that we need to find common ground based on values. And that might not only include Europe and other countries that are known as Western countries, but we have to be watchful and on the lookout what other countries we can share our values, our Western democracy values, and form new partnerships and leaderships with them. Yes. Well, I would add a little bit for that. I totally agree about values.
Dan Harris
But now what we're also talking about is Europe adding power to that themselves by bolstering their economies and their military. But I'll go even further. And they also got to make sure that their democracies are very sound. They can enact and make decisions. It's strange to think that America was sort of like, quote unquote, the leader of the democratic world, at least the Western world.
If you look at what's happening both in the States, well, certain parts of Europe, democracy is being eroded, but still most of Western Europe is held firm against authoritarian movements. know that we got the movement of Meloni in Italy and various other movements like in the Netherlands and stuff like that, and in reform in the UK. But still democratic values are still there. Now you have to add the power and strength around the economy around the military to prepare yourself because you just can't rely on what's going to happen. And I think NATO will come to an end of sorts by the end of its presidency.
Dan Harris (11:00.056)
You're listening to Over Here Over There with your host Claudia Koestler and me, Dan Harris. We'd to thank some of our partners and friends who helped make this podcast possible. Tim and Catherine Mountain at Evenlode Films and Productions. Chris Davis at Chris T. Projects Web Design. Avid listeners and supporters, Anne and Adam Wilcox of Rochester, New York, and Jean Fleming in Portland, Oregon. Check out our website at overhereoverthere.org and our social media channels. Don't forget to like and subscribe. We'd really appreciate it. Now back to our show.
Claudia Koestler (11:37.838)
The question also is for me, what to do on a personal level and what can ordinary politicians do? Because you feel sometimes so powerless. You watch it on telly, you see this guy now on television doing this speech and you know that there are things to come that might impact your life and not for the better. you know, there is one thing keeping level-headed and sane and keep one's own agenda and try and not despair. But what would you do, Dan?
Dan Harris
What would I do? It's got to be across the board as far as what the opposition do. How do you fight back and away from this? And that is certainly that you have to improve the communication, especially of the Democrats in the United States. Their communication strategy was not very good, to say the least. And they really were focusing on issues that were, you they didn't speak with one voice and there were issues, although in important, but they were minor compared to how the message was being driven by the Republicans. They were the ones who drove a very unified economic message, whether it was right or wrong, and it was wrong, but they still had their audience believing that they were the ones who could improve their lives. And we know from the previous Trump administration, it was chaotic. It was chaotic for four years, and we were all exhausted from that. And do you think we're going to get anything different? No, I don't think we're going to get anything different. I think it's going to be chaotic. We have to really organize ourselves, get a clear message across democratic parties, that's with a small D, and that includes Republicans and Democrats who share the same values. And that goes across also all countries in Western Europe and around the world. We've got to start thinking more strategically and also not be afraid to flex our muscles, our democratic muscles, and really to stand up for ourselves a lot better.
Don't assume that democracy is going to exist always. It's very fragile, as we saw four years ago during the January 6th riot. So it's very fragile, even in the strongest country in the world. So I think that most of the leaders, especially the NATO countries, recognize that. And I just hope that they're preparing smartly and getting ready for having to really be more independent-minded to protect their own democracies.
Claudia Koestler (13:56.462)
I agree. And I would like to see moderate Parties and moderate people work together more closely. They should form bonds, they should communicate, they should form bubbles. Because it is so important if a moderate party starts to lash out against the other moderate party just because it's the easy pick, it will drive people more to the extremists. And that is so important that we keep all those moderates more together than we have them at the moment, whether it is within our own countries or over countries, know, borders, cooperation, look out for the values, for the core values and work together. That is so, so important and have visions, policies to tackle the root causes because there is discontent all over the place. Of course, there are problems to be addressed, but not by populists, please. That is just exploitation. So we need to give people and voters a positive alternative.
Dan Harris
And I would extend that a little bit further to say, yeah, and I agree about the moderate parties. But I think if a coalition can be put together, let's just use the states, for instance, but this could be Germany or any country, but even the far left or even parts of the Right; if your value system is that you value democracy and democratic norms and behavior, we have something to talk about. And we might disagree on policies, but the baseline is, do we believe in this form of government?
Now, it's gotten down to that level. And so I'd like to see, just using it again, the United States as an example, the Liz Cheney's and Adam Kissinger and people in the were anti-Trump. Those types of folks, along with moderates and far-left people, don't matter. The first thing is secure your democracy. It's almost like a MASH unit. Keep the patient alive. And then we'll work on everything else from there. We've got to keep the patient alive. Now people who listened to the speech today think, maybe we're going overboard that he did, he means all that or whatever. Well, there are a lot of good indications from that speech reading between the lines for those who really watch this thing every day that from what he said and what he didn't say you feel like the risk has increased now as far as what you said in the very beginning about the world order and that we're looking at a new world order and so we got to prepare for it.
Claudia Koestler (16:17.32)
I fully agree not only was it the speech have you looked at those who attended the inauguration speech you had all those billionaires, all those tech pros there. So the power has increased so much in comparison to 2017. It is something we can really be worried about. I'm clutching straws here, positive straws. Dan, do you think that we might be talking about four years, but maybe we are only talking about two years he has because of the midterms?
Dan Harris
That's true. That's a very good point that he has probably about 18 months that he can enact so that the signing of executive orders straight away, that is symbolic, but it's also being proactive on his part. He's trying to sprint out of the blocks and address a lot of these campaign promises about both political and cultural and social. So he's trying to really hit the ground running here. One is reestablishing himself as the big boy on the block, but still, he really has to move very quickly to do some of these things, which will take some time. So he's putting his executive orders out there as far as immigration goes, energy policy, drilling, and things like that right away. And then he does have all the levers of power in his favor. He's got Congress, he's got a sympathetic Supreme Court, he's trying to change through Project 2025, civil service. So he's trying to make it all work for him. But it's going to be interesting to see how fast he moves. Now, he's got a lot of supporters that it's different from the previous administration where you had more established personnel at the top, those old-fashioned Republicans that believed in democracy and would stand up for democracy and had principles and values like that. Now he's putting in place at the top are more yes men, the RFK juniors and Tulsi Gabbard across the intelligence community. So those people are not going to stand up to Trump. So he has to move fast. He'll work through them, but he does have some very clever people around him, like special advisor Stephen Miller, who's to me a very nasty individual, especially on immigration and what he wants to do there. He has people who really know their stuff and know the government well and how it operates, who are now more empowered than before. Like this Russell Vogt that is in the office of management and budget, who really will have a critical role in determining what happens with the project 2025 and how it really will undermine a lot of the civil service employees like with your schedule F.
Dan Harris cont. (18:42.382)
That means that Trump will be putting more political appointees throughout the civil service who will do his bidding so he can get whatever he wants done as quickly as possible. yes, midterm elections, hopefully, the Democrats will win back the House and be able to put a big roadblock in the way as far as funding because the House really controls the budget when it comes to legislation. So we'll see what happens over the next two years. He's got to deliver on what he's promising with prices.
He's saying that, oh, I'm going to bring down prices. Well, tariffs are not going to bring down your prices. He's saying that China and everyone else is going to pay for those tariffs. No, no, no. Those tariffs are going to be passed on to the American consumer. So, will the prices come down? Let's wait and see. But economic theory says, no, that's not how it works.
Claudia Koestler
There is a lot to talk about, Dan. I think there are at least a couple of other episodes coming.
Dan Harris
We'll have a lot to say about that. And, but, well, thank you, Claudia for these insights. We had a pretty good rant there, didn't we? But thank you to our listeners. We'll continue to monitor these developments and provide you with updates as the situation evolves. This is, Dan Harris for Over Here Over There, along with Claudia Koestler. And please remember to like and subscribe and share our podcast with others. So stay tuned for another unmissable episode of Over Here Over There.