Inequality and the Rise of MAGA - BBC Radio 5 Live Interview

In a recent interview, 'Over Here, Over There' co-host Dan Harris joined BBC Radio 5 Live host Nicky Campbell to examine the roots of political anger across the UK and US, arguing that deepening inequality and unresolved racial divisions are driving today’s populist movements. The conversation explores the long arc of America’s culture wars, the evolution of MAGA, shifting voting patterns among minority communities, and how political leaders exploit fear and grievance. They also discuss free speech, the influence of money in politics, and why recent pressure on late-night comedy shows represents a worrying threat to democratic norms.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Intro - Motion Graphic Audio and OHOT Theme Music
• 0:19 00:19 – Inequality as the Hidden Driver of Political Anger
• 1:02 Inequality - What We Don't Hear About
• 1:55 The Long Roots of MAGA and America’s Culture Wars
• 3:45 Race, Voting Shifts, and Democratic Party Challenges
• 5:05 Free Speech vs Harm: Where Are the Boundaries?
• 6:10 Money, Power, and Citizens United
• 7:20 Late-Night TV, Political Pressure, and Democracy
• 8:00 Why Silencing Critics Damages Free Societies
• 9:00 Summary
• 9:20 Outro Music and Motion Graphic Audio

Transcript

Nicky Campbell (00:12.622)

I’m going to bring in Dan Harris, who worked at the White House and on Capitol Hill, and now hosts the Over Here Over There podcast. Dan, what we heard there from Lenny is what we are, it's a sort of good morning, Dan. Good morning. 

Dan Harris (00:37.486)

Good morning. Good morning.

Nicky Campbell 

It's a sort of cry of frustration and and desperation that we saw, I guess, in the Metropolitan Police estimate, 110,000 people on the streets of London at the weekend in the Tommy Robinson march. We hear it in the MAGA movement as well, a feeling, or wrongly, that they are, you know, hard done by. Is that, that's a kind of common thread in Western liberal politics at the moment, isn't it?

Dan Harris 

What is the common thread that's coming through in our politics nowadays, which we don't speak enough of, is inequality, and especially in the UK and the United States. And the levels of inequality really just are the, to me, one of the root causes for feeling like a second class citizen. And whether it be income, class distinction, some cultural thing. So, that is really gotten out of hand. The further west you go from Europe to the UK to the United States, the problem of inequality gets worse. And it's something that we really have to address. So I can sympathize with what that gentleman was just talking about, but I think it goes a little bit deeper than that. And it goes, it's both economic and social around inequality and the opportunities that people have in society, whether it be political, social, educational, or whatever.

Nicky Campbell (02:05.71)

Has that been the impetus for the rise of the MAGA movement?

Dan Harris 

Well, the MAGA movement has been started, really, you could go all the way back to the Civil War in 1860, as far as this is concerned. America has had a racial problem for centuries, and it accelerated, unfortunately, I think in the last 30 to 40 years. And it's really, when I was growing up, it was, you could hear stories of people saying, oh, in 30 or 40 years, we'll all be speaking Spanish in the United States.

So, this fear, this fear has been building as far as the other side, the them component. And then it was just accelerated in the 1990s through Newt Gingrich and then through the Tea Party. And that is now morphed into the MAGA movement. So, it's been building. And yes, I think it's now accelerating through inequality in the country, but it's been exploited as well by certain leaders like Trump, like, I would say, even here and with Farage. So, that's the problem. And the thing is, let's see what the Democrats or what the parties over here are going to do to address that. They've sort of lost the working class vote in the States, the Democrats, or they, they've lost a good chunk to the Republicans. And that's been enough for the Republicans to win elections in the States. But, you've got to be able to address those fundamental inequality issues and deal with a race issue, which right now is wider than ever.

Nicky Campbell (03:52.47)

Tell me a little bit more about that, wider than ever in America. Give me a little bit more of your unique insights into the race issue in America. Because a lot of people, a lot of black people, voted for President Trump, didn't they?

Dan Harris

They did. It's really the Democrats have not really figured out why they have not addressed that. Why did black men, why did Latino men vote for Trump? And was it a vote against Kamala Harris? Was it a vote against Democrats? I think now we're seeing that some are having buyer's remorse as far as their vote is concerned because of what he's done with the ICE agents rounding up Latinos and Hispanics without due cause outside the rule of law. So, it has been building. And I think that things like DEI have been used as a pejorative, and trying to establish these rules and regulations that have been bypassed, civil rights since 1965, the Voting Rights Act, and things. Now they're just being degraded. They're being degraded by the MAGA movement, and that it really just needs to be addressed by the Democrats. They have to call it out and try to get back to what a fair and equitable society should be. But that's now being dashed in favor of more authoritarianism and greater, you know, I'm not going to use the word the fascist element just yet, but it's certainly an authoritarian play by the MAGA movement to really consolidate power here.

Nicky Campbell

The whole thing about free speech, so many people when they talk about free speech, I I am a genuine enthusiast for free speech and for defending people saying things that I do not like. I'm all for that. But when a lot of people say free speech they mean my speech, not your speech, don't they? 

Dan Harris

That's exactly right. Exactly right. And it's gone both ways. The left has complained, the right has complained. It depends on who's in power and who it is affecting. And if you're affecting my speech, well, that's… The only real thing is, does it cause harm? That used to be the test. Like in the old case, where if you shout fire in a crowded theater, that that should be restricted when it's going to cause bodily harm or some kind of physical harm. But other than that, there’s been obfuscation, to use another word, as far as what is harm and what is freedom of expression. We've had various court rulings in the States as far as what freedom of expression means, which are really odd, like Citizens United, and basically being able to use your campaign fund contributions as a freedom of expression. That's totally, to me, nonsensical. That's not freedom of expression. That's different. That's what our Supreme Court ruled. That has led to this avalanche of money going into politics, especially political action committees, millions and billions going into and distorting our electoral process. It really does depend on who you ask, as you said, as far as my free speech and what it means.

Nicky Campbell (06:11.038) 

Just a couple more, and I'm sorry I'm slightly late to the news because it's really useful having you on. Jimmy Kimmel's late night show was pulled following his offensive comments about Charlie Kirk's death and his comments on the government's reaction to that death and whom they pointed the finger of blame at, in what he would say and others might say was a knee-jerk reaction. This is quite extraordinary, isn't it, in the Western world? A late-night show being polled forever and the president saying it's great news for America. A president who trumpets free speech. Quick reaction on that.

Dan Harris (07:49.758)

It's terrible. It's terrible. I mean, you can't on one hand say to complain about free speech and then try to silence your critics like that. And he's been pressuring for years now the late-night hosts like Jimmy Kimball, Stephen Colbert, who's still cancelled, I think, he's cancelled as well. So, it is having its effect. It's this bullying tactic of holding their license over their heads, saying we're not going to renew or we're not going to allow certain business dealings to occur if you don't comply with what we want. So, and this is what's happened. Obviously, Stephen Colbert and Jimmy Kimmel have been quite harsh in their criticism over the years of Trump. And he's just using this as his tactic to get back at them. So, is it a surprise? No. No, it's not a surprise. But I think it's terrible for democracy.

Nicky Campbell 

Thank you very much indeed. Just trying to think of an equivalent here. It would be seen as utterly outrageous. I think a lot of people will be minded to say thank you. Sorry, I'm late for the news. Really interesting stuff there. Dan Harris, who has the podcast Over Here, Over There. It is 9.36 am.

This is BBC Radio 5 Live.