Bridging Cultures: Germany's Best Known American, Gayle Tufts

Imagine moving to a country where you didn't speak the language and had to perform on stage and TV to live audiences. Daunting? Definitely. But not only did singer, songwriter, and entertainer Gayle Tufts do just that, but she has also become Germany's best-known American and a leading cultural bridge-builder.

In this engaging conversation, hosts Dan Harris and Claudia Koestler explore various themes with Gayle, including the nuances of German humor, the evolution of comedy in Germany, and her personal journey of navigating identity and belonging in a new country. The discussion also touches on the impact of political events on cultural exchange, the importance of education and the arts, and the significance of dialogue in today's world. 

Gayle's innovative and creative performances, highlighted by her trademark 'Dinglish', a blend of German and English, have endeared her to German audiences and made her a household name. The conversation concludes with a focus on the power of entertainment to address societal issues and foster connections across cultures. 

Join this entertaining, heart-warming episode, which kicks off our series on humour and comedy from around the world. Discover why laughter and song are some of the best ways to build cultural bridges and understanding during these divisive times. 

Check out all our episodes at overhereoverthere.org. Please don't forget to like, share, subscribe, and comment. We'd very much like to hear from you. Thank you!

You can find Gayle Tufts' website and upcoming schedule at https://gayle-tufts.de/.

Transcript

Dan Harris (00:03)

When you hear America first, or that America is the best country in the world, now that you've been living outside for so long, how does that make you feel?

Gayle Tufts (00:13)

I would suggest that the people that say that, I'd like to know what their comparison is. That's a big question. I mean, I think I absolutely love the United States. I think it is at its best, an incredible experiment, an incredible, very young country. I have the feeling at the moment the United States is like a teenage boy. Like it's like having a teenage son. Like you love him. And then you want to slap him upside the head and say, what are you thinking about? Think a little bit.

Dan Harris (00:53)

We know one person in particular, we feel that way, don’t we?

Gayle Tufts 

I know several in that administration, you know?

Intro Music

We are honoured to be joined by Germany's best-known American, Gayle Tufts. Born in Brockton, Massachusetts, and now firmly rooted in Berlin, Gayle has developed a unique English style of entertainment, a mix of English and German, which has been entertaining audiences in Germany for decades. Her work transcends entertainment, addressing socialist issues such as migration and identity while offering a sharp political commentary as a leading American singer, songwriter, and author living in Europe. So who better to have on this podcast aacross borders than a cultural bridge between two continents? Welcome, Gayle Tufts.

Gayle Tufts (01:53)

Well, thank you so much, Dan. I'm super happy to be here.

Dan Harris (01:57)

Well, it's great to have you.  Can I just ask you, right off the top, how would you describe German humour?

Gayle Tufts (02:09)

it depends on... 

Dan Harris (02:10)

And is that a contradiction in terms?

Gayle Tufts (02:14)

It's not, it's not. I remember years ago, Elvis Costello, the wonderful singer-songwriter, sang a song about a German sense of humour. I thought back then, but now I know better. And I think it has a bit to do with where in Germany you are. think Claudio would also agree with me.  Germany, for being a relatively small country, is incredibly regional.

Gayle Tufts (02:38)

And the North Germans are very dry. Maybe it has something to do with their proximity to  England or the UK. Around the Rhine, around Cologne, they're very like, they'll laugh at the first thing you say. They want to have fun. And, in Bavaria, they have their own language, which they find incredibly funny. So it's...

Dan Harris (03:04)

All right.

Gayle Tufts (03:05)

But you know, it's interesting. I think I didn't realize how good German humour was.  Because, as Robin Williams once famously said, they killed all the funny people in the Second World War. mean, you know, or sent them away. A lot of the humourists were destroyed. So it took a long time to build like there was a stand-up comedy scene started here in the 90s, you know,  but there are, and there's a wonderful, diverse, fantastic, coniocopia of comedy now in Germany, something for every taste, really.  But there's a wonderful German comedian named Loriot, L-O-R-I-O-T, which no one outside of Germany knows, Claudia, you're nodding, of course. Genius.

Genius. If you go on YouTube, look at Loriot, because a lot of it is with no language at all. It's kind of slapstick, but it's post-war commentary about West Germany, capitalism, and Germany itself. It's very, very, very funny, and when I discovered Loriot, I thought they're… they know how weird they are. Okay great.

Dan Harris (04:32)

Is that sort of a form of cabaret or cabaret or what?

Gayle Tufts (04:37)

It was really, he was on TV. He was real, it was kind of sketch comedy,  like it was everywhere else, you know.  But it's so funny because when I came here from New York in the 80s for the first time, I had always been,  I came from performance art in the 80s, downtown scene in New York, which means a combination of choreography, spoken word, music, and experimental music. I worked, for example, with Philip Glass, the composer, and I was always kind of the funny singing person in a very serious piece. So, when I got here, I thought, it's cabaret. It's where they have lots of people being funny and singing. And that scene wasn't quite what I thought it was. I thought it was going to be like Sally Bowles, like Liza Minnelli in the movie Cabaret.

But that, of course, that was long gone.  There were other things that were super interesting, but I realized for me, it was kind of, luckily, a gap of women who were funny and who were being themselves, who were, you know, being autobiographical, were making commentary about themselves and the world, and would take the piss out of themselves, not take yourself so seriously, have a little self-reflective humour. And I thought, well, I'm the girl to do that. Let me be Germany's Bett Midler, you know? 

Dan Harris (06:16)

This is the 90s?

Gayle Tufts (06:27)

Yeah, I was back in the nineties. I was working in the late eighties before the wall fell with a German dance theatre company, the Tanztheatre  Company. And I was the funny singing person in a dance theatre company. And then, when the wall fell, they offered me a chance to come back and work with them, which I took immediately because I really wanted to be here. I'd already fallen in love with Berlin anyway. And I was really, really excited about being there when the wall came down. was a great, great time to be here.  That was, it was really a time of things opening, not only the wall, but cable television was just starting.

People needed content, the radio stations were changing, and it was a great time to be here, and you could also still afford to rent a theatre, to get technicians. was a very, yeah, the ground, it was ripe, the time was ripe.

Dan Harris (07:21)

When the wall came down, were you in Berlin when that happened? 

Gayle Tufts (07:25)

I was in New York. What a time. I know, it was so awful. I had just gotten back. I was working with Philip Glass at Lincoln Center, so it was kind of, I couldn't say no. And I walked into my, I was in the apartment, which I shared with five other people, and we had all been, we're all dancers, performers,  directors, and we all had friends in Berlin. Everybody had performed in Berlin. And I came home, and they just said the wall fell down. I said, what wall? I thought it was in our apartment. It was New York. I couldn't believe it. And we tried for days and days, like you can't explain to young people. There were no cell phones. We were trying to get a fax through. There was no chance to talk to anybody. But it was amazing. It was an amazing time. Then I went back. was, of course, November. And I went back the following January.

Dan Harris (08:20)

My brother was living in Berlin. He was in Kreuzberg,  right next to the wall. He was on the wall. He was one of those people on the wall. And he hopped over and went to a nightclub and danced the night away. Didn't know if he was going to give back. And in the morning, this just shows you capitalism at its best or at its worst. depends on your... By the time the sun had broken, Marlboro cigarette girls were handing out cigarette packs to East Berliners coming across through the wall. That's capitalism for you.

Gayle Tufts (08:58)

Well, really interesting when I got here in January, a lot of friends in New York called me and said, you know, how is it? Is the cultural exchange, and,  wow. And it was, I thought, well, people are buying video recorders. You know, I hadn't, I didn't, there wasn't a chance to really talk to people. It took a while until I had a chance to talk to people from the East, to exchange with colleagues from the East.  And now, for the last 15 years, my pianist, my stage partner, my songwriting partner, he grew up, he was born shortly after the, or shortly before the wall fell down, and comes from the East. And I always say, who better to understand a post-menopausal American woman than a young gay pianist from the East? No one else. We make a good team.

Dan Harris (09:48)

Yeah, very good. Claudia.

Claudia Koestler (09:55)

Wow, did you feel like you were swept into this unique world? Was there any time that you thought about, wow, I'm anxious, this takes courage to do? Was there any hesitation to perform in a foreign country?

Gayle Tufts (10:15)

I mean, I was young. was, of course, we just do it. And I really, there wasn't any big master plan. I just kind of followed my heart. The performance world, the performance and dance world,  and the music world were, of course, very open.

So we didn't need the language that much.  The people that I worked with, our lingua franca was English.  There was also, at that time, especially in the 80s, a real transatlantic connection. So, people were looking for performers. They really asked, we heard about this girl in New York, could she come?

I studied at New York University, and I met friends in the theatre program there. And when I first came over, I was just visiting them. It was kind of like,  yeah, sure. And then somebody said, would you like to come on tour with me as a backup singer for a kind of punk band? I was like, all right, sure. It was always kind of all right, why not?  Which is kind of, was kind of my modus operandi and...It was affordable at that time. You could also get an apartment relatively cheaply, or somebody was always going out of town here. Do you want to stay with me? People were very, very generous to me. You know, the first winter.

You know, like, I think a lot of people come to Berlin in the summer, and they're like, fabulous, it never closes, and the bars are open until four in the morning, and the sun goes down at 11 o'clock at night. Then come in February, or like March, at least in November, you know that Christmas is coming, but like March. I've been here 34 years. In March, I'm like, get me out of here.

Dan Harris (12:03)

You're desperate, aren't you?

Claudia Koestler (12:11)

Gray, gray, gray.

Gayle Tufts (12:13)

Grey, grey, and grey. And you know, my husband is German. He's North German. He comes from Bremen. And they don't really fight against it. I always say, like, he'll be sitting there reading the Suddeutsche Zeitung in the corner with like one little tea candle on, drinking tea. You know, I'm like, turn some lights on. Do some salsa. Do aerobics. But he sees it coming. Yeah. 

Dan Harris (12:34)

Hey, can I ask you one thing? You sort of touched on it here and there as you, but what does it take, well, from an American perspective, or maybe from anybody from the outside of Germany, what does it take to make it in Germany, coming from the outside?

Gayle Tufts (12:42)

You know, I am always very conscious of the fact that I came at a very certain time. I came when the wall fell down. The transatlantic relationship was fantastic. Coming here as an American, we were welcomed with open arms.  There were things that I felt as an entertainer I could offer that maybe weren't here yet. 

Dan Harris (13:33)

Well, you created a gap in the market, right? So you're saying there's a kind of gap in the market.

Gayle Tufts (13:38)

There was a gap in the market. I saw the gap in the market, but it's also a very certain time, right? This is, we're talking about the nineties. We're talking about a very open,  the market that was not saturated.  And you know, I'm always doing this every day. I'm conscious of the fact that I came of my own free will, my own choice. The only thing I was running away from was crummy apartments and ex-boyfriends, that like, you know, it was kind of like, no, no, no. Right.

 And I also left at a very nice time in my career. I wasn't leaving because it didn't work. I left because it was like, okay, I did this for 13 years.  I always had to have a second job. So, maybe it would be interesting to just be a full-time artist for a while. And I had a job, I came here to do a job.  So, I was kind of safe, and I'm white, you know, it's not like I was fleeing a war. wasn't. I wasn't a refugee in any way. I came looking,

Claudia Koestler (14:46)

to work.

Gayle Tufts (15:08)

I was coming to work. I was coming to work. So, back to your original question, though, what does it take? I think it takes an open heart. It takes curiosity. I think I would learn the German language. I think that's important. I think it's important as a sign of respect to the people you're working with. I think it's important for you not to be so lonely because then you can enjoy more theatre, you can enjoy more culture, and you can understand what's going on here a little bit better.

Dan Harris (15:22)

Can I ask a question then? When, as an entertainer and just personally, socially, when did you feel accepted in German society then? What stage?

Gayle Tufts (15:33)

Good question.

I think in the theatre community, of course, because the theatre community is very international, and also the audience is very accepting. I felt pretty much accepted when I hit the ground.  But to this day, there are times when I'm like, hmm, is that my problem?

Is that a German thing? Is there a disconnect here?  I really wish to say, please learn German, because I wish I had learned German beforehand. I've kind of made a career out of combining both languages, but you know, I sometimes don't know if I'm quite accepted because of my lack of perfect German or my brown hair and brown eyes. And now, you know, that's, mean, that's, but that's like, maybe that's anywhere.  But I felt in Berlin, especially, very accepted right away.

Dan Harris (16:47)

That's great. It's quite an open society and city in Berlin, isn't it? I've visited there a number of times, and it's a great art scene, progressive and everything else. But Claudia, go ahead. Oh, sorry.

Claudia Koestler (17:03)

And of course, Berlin thrives on all the international people that are flocking there and sharing their worldviews and bringing something to the table. This is what Berlin's charm is all about, basically. Yeah, absolutely. But when you were back in the States, did you feel any personal connection to Germany even before you actually came over? Was there something going on already, or what? I mean, personally, I would think that the first choice would have been Great Britain because of the language.

Gayle Tufts (17:39)

I mean, Europe was always the dream for me. I think there comes a certain point, I saw that with people that I studied with,  just watching our careers, was like, okay, either you're gonna go to LA and try that, or you're gonna stay and do Broadway. 

Or are you going to go to Europe? For me, it wasn't, or if you're going to teach at a university, go to the country. It was kind of after 13 years in New York, it was like, okay. And this was also at the end of the AIDS epidemic in America, the first horrible wave of AIDS within the US. There was a two-year period during which I went to about 13 funerals. It was horrific.

And there was just too much grief and Reagan's politics, which I didn't agree with at all. And George Bush, the father, and George Bush, the son. So it was, for me, it was time to go.  To find something new. And so, it was always Europe. Europe was always my dream.

Claudia Koestler (18:49)

Find some.

Gayle Tufts (18:57)

I think, I don't know, since I saw The Beatles when I was a little girl, when I was four years old on Ed Sullivan.  That was for me. Someday I'll marry Paul, you know. But when I was studying at NYU, I studied under a wonderful director named Anne Bogart.

And Anne was a complete Deutschephile. She adored directors like Peter Stein, choreographers like Pina Bausch, and filmmakers like Fassbinder. And so she turned us on to, I remember going to the Lincoln Center Library with her and watching films of the Wuppertaler Tanztheatre with Pina Bausch. And then when Pina Bausch and her dance company came to the Brooklyn Academy of Music, I think it was 1982 or 83, we all flocked there. Every performer went there like to Mecca to see these incredible performances. Around that time, there was also the New Yorker Film Festival did a tribute to Fassbender just before he died. And I saw, I think, all the Fassbender films within one week. no subtitles.

It was, yeah, it was hard. And I always liked, I always liked Kraftwerk. I always thought the song Autobahn was, now I know that it's called Fahren, fahren, fahren, so driving on the Autobahn. I always thought the text was fun, fun, fun on the Autobahn. I thought that was... Why not? Why not? Yes. But it was, so, so, and then, you know, and then I met friends… 

Claudia Koestler (20:37)

Typical German humour.

Gayle Tufts (20:44)

…among them a wonderful author named Adriana Alteras, who is German, Jewish, Yugoslavian, Italian. And she was one of the first people to welcome me into her home and to introduce me to a lot of people here. You know, relying on the kindness of friends, or I get by with a lot of help from my friends.

Dan Harris (21:07)

Yeah, as the saying goes. Yeah.

Claudia Koestler (21:14)

Well, that's fantastic. And now you actually have German citizenship. You publicly shared that decision to adopt it. Am I right in thinking that you did that because of the election of Donald Trump?

Gayle Tufts (21:28)

The first one, yeah. I had been here. I also said to my husband, but we're not officially married because I didn't want to marry him for citizenship. I wanted to marry him for love. So, we had lived for a long time in a, what they call here eine wilde Ehe, which means a wild marriage. And I always say, well, as wild as you can be with somebody from Bremen.

Dan Harris (21:53)

Right. (laughter all around).

Gayle Tufts (21:57)

So, I do want America for the citizenship, and after the election of Trump, my thing wasn't so anti-Trump. But it was the fact that I had been here for 27 years. I pay my taxes fully and completely, and at the same time, I couldn't vote here, and I saw that it's not only the shift to the political right in America or in the United States. I saw the political shift also here in Germany, which is happening. And I just felt it's my duty as a citizen to also fight against the rise of the Right here.

Claudia Koestler (22:36)

Okay, okay. Do you actually feel at home here now, or is home still somewhere in the States?

Gayle Tufts (22:43)

You know, I wrote a book called  American Woman, and the subtitle is How I Lost My Heimat and Found My Zuhause. And there's that funny, Claudia, you know the difference between Heimat and Zuhause, so where you come from and where you settle down. And Berlin will always be my Zuhause. I've been in other places in Germany, but when I come back to Berlin, I'm always, okay, this is my home. This is...

where I've made my home with my husband, this is where I live, and I don't have to go and retire back to the States or something. We don't have kids, so my parents are gone, so it's not. I don't have that kind of legacy thing. I'd love to visit my brother and my sister, they're great,  but it's funny. Also, the older I am, the more I love going back. I come from Boston, well, suburban Boston, and I love to go back to Boston. I love New York anyway, but I know the older I am, I love to go back to where I came from. And I love going to Cape Cod. That's where my family is now. And there's just something about the light there or the humour there, or there's, you feel your roots. I mean, I think that's, if you have the chance to go back to, there's a certain kind of food or a certain kind of music or the radio station or whatever. And, you know, seeing I'm lucky to have my brother and my sister still with me. My brother will say something ridiculous, some memory from when we were kids, little kids, and we laugh until we fall over. You know, I think that's so important to have that connection still. I really feel for people who aren't able to do that right now.

It's, but I'm also on the other hand, super grateful to have it was funny when you said in the introduction, I've been doing this for decades. I have, it's like, yeah, you know, and I, and I'm very super grateful to have the theatre. I've had a chance to work in some incredible theatres here. Like the cultural life here is just incomparable. It's Europe. There are always riches and riches and riches of art, music, theatre, and literature to discover.

Dan Harris (25:02)

I don't know how you feel, but I, being an American, I have dual citizenship as well, both UK and Italian as well. And I'm not finished yet. I'm going to, I'm going to go for a fourth. I got to get Irish. I got to get Irish. Yeah. But, 

(laughter)

Gayle Tufts (25:11)

Dan, really good.

Claudia Koestler (25:12)

Triple. Triple citizen, too.

Gayle Tufts (25:15)

Three times.

Dan Harris (25:26)

 But how does it… I think I can guess what the answer to this is, but I'd want to ask it anyway: when you hear America first, or that America is the best country in the world now that you've been living outside for so long, how does that make you feel?

Gayle Tufts (25:43)

I would suggest that the people who say that, I'd like to know what their comparison is.  That's a big question. I mean, I think I absolutely love the United States. I think it is, at its best, an incredible experiment, an incredible, very young country. I have the feeling at the moment, the United States is like a teenage boy. It's like having a teenage son, as you love him. And then you want to slap him upside the head and say, what are you thinking about? Think a little bit.

Dan Harris (26:23)

We know one, we know one person in particular who we feel that way about.

Gayle Tufts (26:28)

I know several in that administration, you know. But I don't, you know. I don't know. I wonder what the worldview of people, there are people in Germany now who are going back to…it's so funny living in Germany who went through an authoritarian government. It did not end well. Yeah. And it's still, this country is still cloudy. I can, I hope you agree with me. It's still working on its trauma.

It's a traumatized country. many things, you, anything that happens here politically, it all goes back to that. To the Second World War, to the Third Reich, to Hitler and his policies, and the Holocaust, which happened to everybody.

And the amount of disinformation and the cuts in our educational system, I always just think about, I try to keep a positive spin on it and say, I was so lucky, I would never be here speaking with you today without the incredible teachers that I had at Brockton, Massachusetts. I was putting together a special program for gifted children.

I got a full scholarship because I had a fantastic teacher named Helen Peterson who told me, hey, you can get a scholarship, I think, at NYU, a full thing. Keep working, keep doing academic and theatre. Carol Thomas, who ran the fantastic theatre program at Brockton High School. We were spoiled in a good way with music programs, sport programs, dance programs, theatre programs, which opened up worlds to me. And without that education, I wouldn't be here. I wouldn't be this curious, desire to learn that learning is fundamental, that, you know, that, and, and, if I see that administration trying to cut the funding for the children's television workshop, I think, the department of education, so I think, well, what's the point? You know, I mean, we aren't, we here, to take care of each other, to, it wasn't the deal with America, wasn't it our legacy to try to make a better and make a better tomorrow for the next generation. And maybe those people think they're doing that, but I beg to differ.

Dan Harris (29:14)

In fact, just as a follow-up to that, what in your social circles or what you see maybe in the news,  just what's the feedback? What's the reaction? I mean, if you had to say, give a percentage as far as to America First or America is the best country in the world when Americans say that, what is the reaction to that then from your friends and your network? Is it like 80-20, 90-10? I guess we all live in our own spheres or echo chambers, which I do. I mean, I'm sure, but I try to keep an open mind as well at the same time.

Gayle Tufts (29:59)

Hey, I know, when I think of it, I'm gonna base this on not only my friends and colleagues, but also the audiences that I play for. You know, and I'm for theatre s, let's say 800 people a night, you know? 

Dan Harris (30:18)

Yeah, you're a good you're a good test case, aren't you? You experience it in real time.

Gayle Tufts (30:24)

Germans love America. Germans are like me, my husband, my social circle, and my colleagues, heartbroken at the developments that are happening now.  It's so funny. I'm a big fan of what I'm working on as I'm working a lot at the moment, and I love it. But during the daytime, I have to save my voice and just chill out. So, I, my drug of choice is Top Chef. I love the TV show Top Chef. And I'm watching the old shows, because I came to the game late on Top Chef. So, I'm watching all the old series. And right now, I'm watching a series that is around the time of COVID or like 2020. And there's this diverse, talented, kind group of people from the gastro scene who are, you know, the show is really trying to support them. They're trying to support each other because, like theatres, of course, the whole restaurant world got really, really badly hit. They're also, everybody speaks a different language, and they're all talking about their families and how they learned to cook.

And one of them is a dreamer, DACA, he's the second generation, but he dreams of going to Italy to learn how to make really good pasta, but he has no passport. Then sometimes he'll speak Spanish, or there's a Mexican woman who should be talking in Spanish, and they use some subtitles sometimes. And I think this...Wow, and it's celebrating this diversity, not only of culinary foodie-wise, but also these people who are so interesting in their stories of how their parents came and worked so hard to make a better future for them. And I thought to myself yesterday, when I was watching this, they couldn't show this right now.

Those people might be afraid that the next day of filming, they would be taken away and sent on an all-expense-paid trip to El Salvador. I mean, what the serious, what? And it's so unbelievable to me. So, my friends, to answer the question, the people that I meet here, especially in Berlin, Berlin had an incredible connection and history with Americans. The Americans freed Berlin, freed Germany. And so there's always been a great deal of love and respect. Also, every German I know has seen a lot more of America than I have. They're all like, Grand Canyon, Hawaii. Like, you know, I've never been there. Nashville. I know, it sounds really interesting. Yeah, I saw Taylor Swift. Really?

Dan Harris (33:27)

That's right.

Gayle Tufts (33:29)

I've been to Boston, I've been to Cincinnati, you know.

Dan Harris (33:32)

I know. Me too. I'm just an East or West coaster. I've been to Hawaii once. 

Gayle Tufts (33:39)

More than me. More than me.

I went to Chicago. So now I always try, for the last few years, always, I'll go home and visit the family. And then I always try to go somewhere that every German I know has been, but I haven't been. I went to Chicago. I went to LA. And it's amazing. It's amazing. It's an amazing country, you know, with amazing people.

Dan Harris (33:57)

Yeah.

Gayle Tufts (34:03)

And that's, there's a lot of, course, also in the government, there are so many people here that know people in Congress or know people in state legislatures. And that connection, they're very, very conscious. The people that I know who are involved in politics here are very, very conscious of keeping that connection going.

Dan Harris (34:23)

You're listening to Over Here Over There with your hosts, Claudia Koestler and me, Dan Harris. We're speaking with our special guest, Gayle Tufts, an American-born German entertainer, author, and singer. We want to thank some of our partners and friends who helped make this podcast possible. Tim and Catherine Mountain, Evenlode Films and Productions, and Chris Davis at Chris D. Projects Web Design. Check out our website at overhereoverthere.org, and our social media channels. Please don't forget to like, subscribe, hit that notification bell, and share this episode. We'd really appreciate it. Now, back to our show.

Claudia Koestler (35:05)

So, you would suggest that  Europeans and Germans especially, should go and visit the US at the moment? Or should they stay back in Europe due to other travel plans?

Gayle Tufts (35:18)

Maybe I've had a lot of calls from friends saying, how's it over there now? On the other hand, I was just talking with a younger friend of mine, and she said, now's the time to go. Now is the time to keep the conversation going. I would say, I think now is not the time to stop talking.

Dan Harris (35:43)

Yeah, very good point.

Claudia Koestler (35:45)

Learn from each other and listen to each other.

Gayle Tufts (35:47)

Keep the conversation going.

Claudia Koestler (35:50)

Yeah, absolutely. That's what we are trying with this podcast as well.

Gayle Tufts (35:54)

Really applaud you guys completely. We need to keep the conversation going.

Claudia Koestler (36:00)

Absolutely, yeah. And there is a political side, of course, to you and to your performances as well. But also, let's address that you actually were the first woman to be featured on a legendary comedy. 

Gayle Tufts

Yes, I was the first.

Claudia Koestler

…as the Nonsense Comedy Club. Before that, it was quite male-dominated, wasn't it? That scene.

Gayle Tufts (36:16)

Yeah, how many? There wasn't a scene, you know, as I said earlier, the standup really started with a wonderful friend of mine named Thomas Hermans, who kind of imported it. It was his idea of a mixed show, which, of course, in the 80s was a huge thing in the New York and Boston Comedy Club,  and also kind of the idea of like the Tonight Show. If you think of that in America, we have every night, we're so lucky. I mean, of course, we all watch it on YouTube too, to have people like John Stewart, Stephen Colbert. Jimmy Kimmel talking to us about the news of the day, and when I was growing up, Johnny Carson or David Letterman. So, it took a while for that to get here. Two weekly shows are very good now. Young Berman is an excellent satirist. There's a thing called the Heute show, which is like the Today show at night. It does like a weekly, ‘That Was the Week That Was’, so to speak, review of the news, and they're all quite good. But it took a while. And Thomas and I met a few years before that through the dance theatre scene. And he had started this program when cable was kind of this very fertile ground of, okay, do you have an idea? We'll produce it. And he said to me, hey, you know, if you do, I was like, I think we'll really do standup comedy. I sing, and then I tell stories. He said, we'll take your story, German it up a little bit, Deutsch it up a little bit,  and you'll learn it like music and do it and get money for it. You can pay your rent for three months. And I was like, sure, I'll try. Why not? So, but then I realized it was very important. Because at that time, there were very few, there was a wonderful duet called The Misfits, two women who came from Cologne. They were very...they were very unglamorous, very kind of rock and roll. There were men dressed as women who were very funny. And then there was like Uta Lemperer, like serious, brash, singing Weill artist, kind of Marlena Dietrich. And there wasn't anything in between. There wasn't a kind of glamorous, there wasn't a Bette Midler here. And I thought somebody who can be funny, somebody who can sing, and kind of break your heart with a song, and then make you laugh again. So that's always how my show goes, like that. You know, it's like, I love to make you laugh. And then every now and then, to make you think or to make you shed a tear, because I think it's very important these days to get all of those emotions out. And then I make sure I pick you back up again. I want to make sure you go home in a better mood than you came in. I think that's my job. You know, I think that's in entertainment and theatre. At the moment, for me, the things I want to see and the things I love to perform are just things that lift us up a little bit.

Dan Harris (39:29)

And how did you develop the concept of Dinglish? I saw, I think, a comment from you saying it was almost like a necessity or something like that. You see it also as a metaphor for some kind of transatlantic identity?

Gayle Tufts (39:36)

I didn't. Yeah, you know, like I speak better Deutsch than I do on stage. I think I hold…

Claudia Koestler (39:50)

 Let me be the judge of that.

(laughter)

Gayle Tufts (39:55)

So, you know, I try to use it. It's like paint. I use a little bit of this colour, a little bit of that colour. Make sure that the punch lines are in German so that people get it. You know, I don't want to, I never want to make you feel left out. I want to make you feel included by using both languages. And I have a lot of people who come and say, yeah, you're like my family. You know, my mother speaks this, my father speaks that, we all talk like you.

 So that's been important, and it really did happen out of necessity. I didn't have any German when I came here, except all the normal, like things that every American has Gesundheit Schadenfreude, Blitzkrieg, Fahrvergnügen.

Dan Harris (40:49)

But the way you interweave them is very nice, very special.

Gayle Tufts (40:56)

You know, I try to, thank you. Try to use it as I write with it. I paint with it. And I'm happy. I'm also very privileged to work with Marianne Lux to work with this wonderful composer from the, originally from the East, whose music gives me a platform to be able to play with the language and the songs as well.

Claudia Koestler (41:18)

So that is actually a wonderful transatlantic bridge-building thing, isn't it, English?  Do you think that the audience, the German audience, actually has learned a lot about American culture, or what did they learn over the times they have seen you there?

Gayle Tufts (41:35)

I hope so. hope that they... There's a certain, you know, humour to it. Like, don't be so precious about the language. Don't be so precious about a change within society. You know what I mean? It always goes a little bit, I hope, a little bit deeper. It's like, hey, if you're open to me speaking this way, maybe you'll also be open to your neighbour who also doesn't quite speak perfect Goethe Institute, folks hope she was a German. It takes a while. It takes a while to learn it. You know, I think der die das will be like a roulette game till the day I die.

Dan Harris (42:18)

That's right. The reaction I get when I try to speak German, and if I make a mistake, depends on who I'm speaking to. But when I've had a few pints or something, and I start trying to talk or whatever, but I do notice that one little mistake, and it's almost like breaking glass, some broken glass to some degree.

Gayle Tufts (42:46)

You know, and that's what I think of the other way around. Like when my husband went to New York with me for the first time, and in New York, everybody speaks everything. And he was so encouraged to speak English. You know, of course, he thought as a German, my English is terrible. And he was so within the first night, he was like having this big discussion about water, politics, and this was years ago, saying like, well, we have to really start thinking about somebody from Arizona and talking about conservation of water, and I was like, good on you. You know, he wasn't talking about whatever, football, that too, but he was also talking about water conservation. I thought that was great. So, because it was, it's a bit easier, and the Germans, rightly so, are proud of their complicated but beautiful language. It takes a while to get over that.

Dan Harris (43:52)

Yes. Well, that famous phrase of Oscar Wilde, life's too short to learn German. But, I mean, I think that they do appreciate it, though. When I try it, obviously, their English is so good, usually coming back at me, that we just go back to England. So, I don't get as much practice in as I would.

Gayle Tufts (44:10)

That's true. I tell you, there's so much great German pop music. There's great German pop music. There's great German rap music. There's, I always find like, you know, listen to a little radio.  Bremen's Vi is very good. Bremen has great radio stations. And you'll just hear stuff.

You know, just, I love to listen to, I feel like radio podcasts, stuff is, it will get in. I would say, like watch, to people that are new here, you know, listen to the news, because you know what's going on in your own language and then listen to it. You'll start to hear words that, that will resonate.

Claudia Koestler (44:50)

Did you ever encounter a German cliché that turned out to be true? You know that I'm gonna ask about an American cliché

Gayle Tufts (45:02)

And you know, I always say the Mischung Max, they say here, it's all about the mix.  I think mixes are very, very good. And there are two things. I would say the one I always say is there's a German word, call it Bodenstehigkeit. There's a kind of a down to earthness that is kind of a very solid; there's a solidity in Germany. This country has, you know,

Some treaties have been here. You're down there in Bavaria. You've got the Alps. It's this, you know, whether it's good or bad, I'm German, my father is German, my grandfather was German, back to whomever. So there's a solidity here and there's a slowness here. I love there's a phrase that's called, Aine Nacht, a hobe schlafen, sleep on it. Don't make a decision today, sleep on it. And that was...was really

Claudia Koestler (46:01)

No buts, to…

Gayle Tufts (46:02)

…something incredibly valuable. Like, sometimes I think, why did I come here too? But I think there was something in my soul that needed to learn that to take to respect also my own thought process, to take time to think about it. Think about it one night, just take some time and think about it before you act. I think that's not it. So, it's, in a way, cliché that slow but steady German thing, Mrs. Merkel was, she was the perfect example of that. Just, you know, we just take it slow. know, hmm. We think, let's think about talking about thinking about having a Zoom meeting, about maybe meeting, you know.

Dan Harris (46:41)

Yeah.

Claudia Koestler (46:48)

That's why she was so long in reign.

Gayle Tufts (46:53)

…sure, and it's cold before her, it's like okay, we stay with it like so, and it can also make you crazy because it's like let's go, let's you know just do it.

Claudia Koestler (47:00)

Let's see.

Dan Harris (47:10)

Yeah. Well, in this podcast, we say, what can we learn from others and what can they learn from us, you know, kind of share. I mean, every side is unique, and we can't be German. Germans can't be Americans, but maybe there's something that we can learn from each other and use.

Gayle Tufts (47:29)

Yeah, but exactly that combination, I always say, you know, my husband, it's like, he calms me down, and I light a little fire underneath them. Because I think the cliche, Claudia, your next question, the cliche thing of America that is true is that spontaneity. Like, let's just do it. I mean, I've done that a lot in my life, less now that I've gotten older, but I'm glad that that American spirit of like, okay, we'll just do it, which maybe in the last few days we've seen is maybe not the right thing. Maybe a little restraint would not be uncalled for. And let's think about it one night and open the windows, get some air in. That's a very German thing. They love that fresh air. They will get up, it'll be February, it'll be minus 100 degrees Fahrenheit. They will open up the windows because it clears your head. And it's right, it's right, they're right.

Dan Harris (48:07)

That's right.

Claudia Koestler (48:27)

It blows the cobwebs out, in a way. And by February, you will have probably thought everything, every possibility through. So, you're really prepared for everything.

Gayle Tufts (48:30)

Learned a lot from. Yeah, but then it's carnival, and then they all get drunk and forget it all, so…

Claudia Koestler (48:44)

Yeah, and the moment has passed anyway, so...

Dan Harris (48:44)

Yeah.

Gayle Tufts (48:49)

Yeah, but I just have to say I have to defend the Germans to say they're more fun than you think. That's good. I wouldn't be here for that long, and I wouldn't have a career that I have. It's true. 

(laughter)

Dan Harris (48:56)

They're more fun. That is a great... The tourist office, the German tourist office, should have that as their motto, ‘Germans are more fun than you think’. I think that would be great.

So would you say that what Americans misunderstand about Germans is that Germans do have a sense of humour, really? Because we don't think, the rest of the world doesn't think they have a sense of humour.

Gayle Tufts (49:28)

Yeah. I still say, whatever you talk about Germans and humour or Germans in general, we're always going back to the Second World War. That shadow of that hangs over internationally. I mean, maybe the next generation, if you say Germany, they'll think Heidi Klum. They'll think Mercedes-Benz, or Rammstein, you know, like they'll think different cultural things. But I think that that's...

Claudia Koestler (50:05)

Yeah. Just like you think, Kraftwerk. But let me tell you something.  What you mentioned before is that everything comes down to the Second World War and Hitler and all that.  People were so cautious for decades afterwards, not doing the wrong thing. So, they didn't develop a sense of humour as other countries might have had because they could have been a bit easier and light-hearted. And Germans were very cautious, and they didn't know their place in the world. And one thing that reflects this is a famous phrase or saying, actually, that I heard in my family, which is the bird that chirps too fondly, loudly, and happily in the morning, is eaten by the cat by the night. don't... 

Gayle Tufts (51:05)

Good night. We love you.

Dan Harris (51:06)

It's dark. Yep. It's a little dark.

Gayle Tufts (51:13)

It's like...

Claudia Koestler (51:14)

Which, of course, when people giggle and they... someone could have actually said that, and in my family, that actually happened, you know, when I giggled along with my mom or something. That was a phrase of, you might be happy now, but you never know what's coming, so be cautious.

Gayle Tufts (51:30)

Which is also not wrong, you know. A little dark. I also always explain to people who have moved here on Sunday night. So, you've had a nice weekend, right? You've had a great weekend. Everybody enjoys the weekend here. Maybe you've gone out to the lakeside or had a nice barbecue or met friends, gone to a club, or gone to some nice theatre. Have a lovely weekend.

Claudia Koestler (51:34)

It explains a lot. Yeah, it is, of course.

Gayle Tufts (51:59)

Sunday night, everybody goes home and watches this thing called Tatort, which is a crime show that has been on, but hush, who done it? It's with a lot of social commentary, but it's so dark. And I think, why do you want to end your weekend with that? You know, like, was like, I wouldn't, you want to say, I remember when I was a kid, we had the Ed Sullivan show, which was like,

Claudia Koestler (52:08)

Who done it?

Gayle Tufts (52:27)

Yay, the Beatles are on tonight, or yay, there's a little puppet named Topo Chico. Yay. And now it's this, like, let's go into like horrible crimes, not real crimes, but you know, crime story. It like, I don't like like Helen Mirren and Prime Suspect, like, or Cracker, like the British crime procedurals where you're like, dark, okay, that's also a part of the Germans have that dark. So…

Claudia Koestler (52:57)

We like the gravity in a way. 

Gayle Tufts (53:00)

Yes.

Dan Harris (53:01)

Scandinavians, too, everyone watches a Scandinavian. 

Gayle Tufts (53:09)

Nordic Noir, yeah, that Nordic Noir, which is fantastic, or reading them. And I think maybe that's because, of course, nature has to do with it, too. So, it makes a big difference. It makes a difference to your soul. But I like the fact that they don't try to hide that. You know, sometimes I think, you know, I've also learned here, it's okay to be sad. There's this wonderful word that they have, Vergangenheit.

Dan Harris (53:13)

No, I...

Gayle Tufts (53:38)

bevel to go, which means examining your past and working on your past, working on past trauma. There's, you 

Claudia Koestler (53:51)

Absolutely. And then there is Weltschmerz, know, this kind of philosophical sadness where you ponder upon all the big stuff, but there is a beauty to it. But it's sad, but it's still beautiful.

Gayle Tufts (54:06)

Yep.

Dan Harris (54:07)

That translates into world hurts. World hurts. Or in this case, could you say melancholy, right?

Claudia Koestler (54:09)

Yeah, exactly. 

Gayle Tufts (54:14)

It's almost melancholy, sometimes I think there's a…we go back to this groundedness. Well, that's the way the world is. So, we'll go on.  It's enough. And there's this romantic thing in romantic, not in a rom-com way, but like Caspar David Friedrich or Goethe or Schiller, they're the Shakespeare of Shakespeare's of Germany. This combination of nature, the beauty of nature, cycles of nature, death is in there, but rebirth is also in there. You know, there's no denying that music like Bach and Beethoven came from here. And that operatic, very deep, heartfelt pain of the soul is…That's why humour is super important. That's why it's super important. I think my job here is to go like, and it's funny. You know?

Dan Harris (55:21)

Yeah. Yeah.

Claudia Koestler (55:25)

Finding the lighter side of it, that often does the trick, doesn't it? Let me be the advocate for the darker side here for a moment. Well, I've only got one passport, and that's German, so I have to be true to that one. 

Gayle Tufts (55:29)

Go for it.

Claudia Koestler (55:42)

But I mean, the world is in quite a horrible state at the moment. We have wars going on. People are dying. And we have a global migration crisis in a way. So many people are fleeing their countries. And you are an advocate for migrants. What is your take on the rise of anti-immigration sentiments that is going on globally? How can you turn that funny? Is there a lighter side to it?

Gayle Tufts (56:12)

It's difficult right now. You know, it's funny. I mentioned John Stewart or Stephen Colbert, who I really feel like the creme de la creme of satire in America. Last week, John Stewart was just screaming. He was literally screaming. He had no words, you know.  And in my show right now, there comes there. I this is a show I've been doing since shortly before the last election. And. I can't just make funny jokes.  The orange monster. Melania. I have to turn it and say, you know, I've been crying. I've cried myself to sleep so many nights. I'm so heartbroken by the political situation of the world right now. I see it in myself, and my phone sees it. My face recognition doesn't recognize me anymore.

It's so depressing. I always have to code in because of this. You know, and so that's all you can do. can only, for me at the moment, I can only turn it in terms of the entire crisis that we're seeing in the world. Of course, that also goes back to climate change and to economic hardship and to this huge gap, more than a gap between the first world, the second world, the third world, the haves and the have-nots. And until we start addressing those issues, it was like, Germans love to take vacations. And I think that's great. They love to explore the world. And I just, you know, when sometimes I play in places where the AfD was the right, extreme right party, is successful, say like, you know, well, on your next vacation, then, I don't know, go to Kiev for a week. Go to Syria for a weekend. See how you like that. You know, see how the other… I was raised in a family where my mother was Irish Catholic. So, I grew up in this Christian household, and we learn think about your neighbour and stand for a moment in the other person's shoes.

That empathy, the lack of, I mean, I understand people, it's a big discussion, right? I think in Germany, in America, in the United Kingdom, jobs have been lost. All the industrial jobs have been lost, which people had, and also here like that, so the auto industry, mining.

ships, shipbuilding, all of that stuff that was especially here in Germany, that was like, that's a job. Also in the States, if you had a job in the auto industry, you were set, industry, you were set, you were set, your kids were set. It was a job, you're going to work your 40 years or 35 years, and then you're going to have a good retirement, worked hard your whole life, had insurance, you had a house, you had two cars, your kids were going to get a good education.

When that's not there, and that's in all of our cases, that's why, of course, people are afraid. Yeah. And then you think, someone's going to take this away from me, rather than how can we solve these problems and these larger problems together? I don't know if anybody really wants to leave their home. You know, if it's…

Dan Harris (59:54)

Not forcibly.  No one wants to. Can I ask you a question, just to get your advice, that goes out to people listening to this who are migrants or changing countries?  What advice would you give to migrants or expats trying to find their place in a new country during these times?

Gayle Tufts (59:58)

Forced to leave their home. Nobody.

Claudia Koestler (1:00:01)

Yeah.

Gayle Tufts (1:00:20)

It's very, very difficult. Try to keep yourself as strong as possible, as grounded as possible. First of all, remember what you have to offer. To find help, try to find people who will help you, even if it's just one person who can lead you to the next person who can help. I think there is some help to be found. I think it's super important to know that, to try to be as okay as you can be physically, to be as safe, to feel as safe as you can be, and get all the help you can to feel safe, I mean, there's a big difference. There's a difference between a refugee and somebody who's emigrating, maybe because, okay, I can better myself.

What can you offer? know, it's a... I do think there are kind people out there. I think there are amazing people who are trying to do as much as they can for everyone to try to keep society together. I you guys are doing this too.  And one has to try not to get cynical, try not to give up. And that's in whatever way...

One can, but to keep… to be interested, I don't know, know, keep an open mind and keep an open heart. And there are other people, maybe that don't look like you, or don't speak like you, but still want to find a connection with you and still. 

Claudia Koestler (1:01:57)

Keep an open mind, basically?

It can somehow enrich life, can't it? I mean, if we take on a second language, a third language, even if it's just bits and pieces, it sometimes elevates it, just as it did for your career and how your shows are being elevated by English.

Gayle Tufts (1:02:35)

You know.

Dan Harris (1:02:36)

I think we should all be speaking Dinglish in the future. You know, I think that's a happy medium.

Claudia Koestler (1:02:49)

That's... We're starting right now! The movement is starting right now!

Gayle Tufts (1:02:53)

You know, just, I mean, I think that's such a...it's, the question is on both sides. How can we? I think the question is more, how can we in the West, or we who are privileged enough to have freedom, to have jobs, to be economically viable, to be healthy?  How can we help? What can we do to make this world a better place, to make this, to make our neighbourhood a better place, to make our apartment building a nicer, you know, open the door for somebody. Take, if a woman is going down the stairs in the subway with a baby carriage, help her with the carriage. You know, if there's somebody older, give them a seat on the bus. Just smile at someone. You know, maybe they'll think you're nuts, but why not?

Dan Harris (1:03:43)

Yeah, I think I haven't seen the polls recently, but I can imagine where the United States would be as far as welcoming goes. And I think I saw a poll a couple of years ago, and they were well down the list. Unfortunately, ever since 9-11 happened. So, I don't think it's our nature. I think we noted before that as being an open, friendly country, but it's certainly changed.

Gayle Tufts (1:03:59)

…to Trump. And you know, the world turns, you know, I mean, I think 9-11 is certainly a trauma that we have not done the Vergangenheitsbewältigung for. It's horrible. Any New Yorker knows that. I think we all know where we were, just like we said about when the wall fell. 

In a positive way, we think about where we were on 9-11. I also think COVID did a lot to close us in. Look at these boxes that we're in right now. We're used to that now. I'm in a box. You know, on one hand, it's a miracle that the three of us are together in three different countries, well, two different countries, three different cities at the same time, three different places at the same time. At the same time, it has created a distance and a lack of trust to a certain extent. And I think that's something we need to physically and emotionally, and mentally, try to build on, to build our trust back in each other and ourselves.

Claudia Koestler (1:05:17)

I fully agree that we have to keep an open heart and an open mind because basically by the end of it, we are all humans. I mean, this is the connection we already share, and we are just, you know, looking too much at the differences, but we should also look at what connects us. And that is a good start. And then we can proceed, you know, find further things that connect us and it more, even than you think it's worth it, if you try things that connect us then we think we're all the children of parents we're all some of us are mothers have been fathers of babies and we love dogs or Shrek or I don't know you know Lilo and Stitch we love the Muppets you know or whomever or Beethoven or Bach or the Beatles and that's…

Claudia Koestler (1:06:07)

That's right.

Gayle Tufts (1:06:08)

Sometimes I just, you know, I think about that. I think about putting on some song and getting everybody singing, and it's a beautiful thing. Absolutely.

Dan Harris (1:06:16)

They got to come and see your show. That's what they got to do.

Claudia Koestler (1:06:19)

Absolutely. And speaking of singing together, if someone offered you a chance to host either a nighttime show in the US at the moment, like, you know, the Jimmy Kimmel show, host that or perform in Berlin at the gate for global leaders, which would you choose and why?

Gayle Tufts (1:06:38)

I would do the Gate absolutely because I think more because first of all, I'd love to do that, and second of all, because the bar is relatively high if you're talking about Jimmy Kimmel over there. That's kind of covered, I think, they've got that brilliantly covered, and I think I can brilliantly cover a little bit of enthusiasm, delight, and hope for some global leaders.

Dan Harris (1:07:08)

Very good. Well, that's a great note to end on. That's a great note to end on. So, a big thank you again to our special guest, Gayle Tufts, for sharing her thoughts and entertaining perspective on her career and life in Germany. You can find out about Gayle's upcoming shows on her website, Gayle-tufts.de, which we'll include in the show notes for everyone. You can check out our website at overhereoverthere.org, where you can become an OHOT member and pick up some cool merchandise in the process via Patreon. Please don't forget to like and subscribe to the podcast and give us a five-star rating if you feel so inclined. We'd very much appreciate it. We're on most social media channels, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn, so let us know about the humour and comedy in your country and how well you think it travels around the world. Polite, insightful, humorous, and constructive comments are always welcome in any language, so please be in touch. Tune in again for another unmissable episode, and until then, thank you for being over here, over there.