German Humour? Are You Joking?

Over Here, Over There is pleased to launch a new series exploring international comedy across cultures, countries, and genres. At a time of global uncertainty and division, we turn to humour to better understand ourselves — and each other.

In this series, we travel across borders in search of what makes people laugh — and why. While the world may feel increasingly divided, laughter remains a universal language. Through these conversations, we hope to highlight our shared humanity and perhaps remind ourselves that the person on the other side of the border is not so different from us after all.

🎙️ This Episode

In this episode, Over Here, Over There co-hosts Claudia Koestler and Dan Harris speak with renowned German comedian and Kabarett artist Arnulf Rating about the unique world of German Kabarett — its history, cultural significance, and enduring role in political and social commentary.

Together, they explore how humour functions as a form of protest, a mirror to society, and a powerful tool for navigating complex political realities. The discussion also compares German Kabarett with American and British comedy traditions, offering fascinating cross-cultural insights into how different societies use humour to challenge authority and reflect on themselves.

The humourist and author Mark Twain once said, 'A German joke is no laughing matter'.  As you'll see and hear, Arnulf proves otherwise. 

🎧 How to Listen

This is primarily an audio episode and is available on all major podcast platforms, including Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

On our YouTube channel, you can also watch a companion version featuring a curated slideshow highlighting key discussion topics and moments from our conversation with Arnulf Rating.

📣 Join the Conversation

If you enjoyed this episode, please like, share, and subscribe — it really helps us grow.

We’re always keen to hear from our listeners: how does comedy work in your country? What makes people laugh where you are? Share your thoughts and suggestions — we may feature your perspective in a future episode.

🧠 Key Topics

•  The history and significance of German Kabarett
•  Comparing German humour with American and British comedy 
•  Humour as a form of protest and societal reflection 
•  The future of political satire in a changing world 

⭐ Special Guest

Arnulf Rating — legendary German comedian and Kabarett artist

🔗 Resources & References

• Arnulf Rating's Website
• Monty Python
• The Daily Show
• Bassem Youssef
•  Werner Fink's Performances
• Billy Wilder Films
• Ernst Lubitsch Films

🌐 Guest Links

• Website
• Twitter

Transcript

Dan Harris (00:02.094)

You're in the right place. Hello, I'm Dan Harris. 

Claudia Koestler

Hi, and I'm Claudia Koestler. 

Dan Harris

You're Over Here, Over There. Welcome back to Over Here, Over There, your podcast for fresh perspectives and discoveries across borders. If you're new to the podcast or haven't yet subscribed, please do so below and follow us on social media. We'd very much appreciate it. You can also find our website at overhereoverthere.org. Today we'll talk about a topic that some might see as elusive, as Bigfoot, or as a contradiction in terms, German humour. Not only does it exist, but it's worth delving into as you can explore and experience the funny side of Fritz, but you can also discover an entire art form of its own, German Kabarett. Not to confuse it with the French and English term Cabaret.

Kabarett is rooted in the early 20th century and is distinct from comedy in other countries in several ways. It typically involves sharp satire and biting social commentary on political, social, and cultural issues. It often aims to provoke thought and challenge societal norms. Throughout its history, Kabarett has faced censorship and suppression. This has led to a tradition of resistance and defiance, with performers using humour as a form of protest and dissent. While comedy in other countries may also engage in political satire and address political and social issues, the degree of risk taken by Kabarett performers in Germany sets them apart. Let's discover this unique approach to humour the Germans have with one of the best, Arnulf Rating. He is one of the founders of the group Three Tornadoes, an anarchist West Berlin Kabarett trio that officially existed from 1977 to 1990. Rating has been touring with solo programs since 1993. In addition to his work as a Kabarettist artist, Arnulf Rating is also active as an organizer of numerous events. There among the Blauen Tag, which means Blue Monday in English, or the Aschen Mittwoch der Kabarettisten, which means Ash Wednesday of Kabarett artists. He has also received numerous German awards and can be seen regularly on German television, which Claudia can speak further on. 

Claudia Koestler (02:28.386)

Thank you, Dan. Mr. Rating, welcome to Over Here, Over There. What a pleasure and honour to have you on our program. You are one of Germany's best-known performers of this art form, renowned for your sharp wit and smart wordplay. So, you're our living testimony that Germans do have humour. Do you sometimes feel solitary like a caller in the wilderness? Or do you think the sense of humour in Germans is underrated internationally?

Arnulf Rating

I don't feel lonely; there are quite a few humorous people out here. But there was a kind of stop or silence during and after the Nazi era, because all the Jewish humour was driven out or destroyed, or murdered. That was a reason for us, my colleagues and I, to start again in the 1970s. We wanted to try our hand at humour, also because the society was authoritarian and militarized, and the best way to counteract that was with laughter. And humour. Perhaps German humour is not perceived as much abroad because the German language is not so widespread. German exports tend to be Mercedes, BMWs, and Audis, and now also Leopard tanks. In other words, sharpness, precision, punctuality, and everything that applies characterize Germans. Humour is less commonly known as characterization for us. But that's a different story within our country. We do try to laugh at ourselves. 

Dan Harris

Apart from the obvious linguistic differences, how would you compare German humour in general with that of the United States or Great Britain? 

Arnulf Rating

Oh, you get the impression that British humour is more of a dry wit, deadpan, and American humour is more nonchalant. But I guess it depends on the message it carries. In Germany, for example, there was absolutely great humour in the 1930s, such as by Werner Fink, a Kabarettist who came on stage at the beginning of the Nazi era dressed as a janitor carrying a picture of Hitler and then asked the audience, “Was sollen wir machen, aufhängen oder an die Wand stellen?“ Can you translate it? 

Dan Harris (04:55.116)

Yes, which basically is what's.... What should we do with that one? Hang him or hang him up or put him up against the wall (i.e. and shoot him). If my German serves me correctly. 

Arnulf Rating

Yeah, right. Or another example, this one I think said to a Nazi whistleblower in the audience when he spoke a particularly fast passage, Kommen Sie mit? Oder muss ich mitkommen? 

Dan Harris

Yeah, yeah. Which I'll try again, which is Kommen Sie mit? Oder muss ich mitkommen? Which translates to do you want to come with me, or do I, or must I come with you? Meaning, am I sort of arrested? Do I have to follow you? 

Arnulf Rating

Yes, exactly. You see, there's something there. There are definitely forms of dry humour in Germany, even under tough conditions. In the 1950s, it took a while for the uptightness and the shock about what had happened to subside. And in 1968, anti-authoritarianism emerged, and with it, anti-authoritarian humour. 

Claudia Koestler

Tough words. That's tough for anybody. You're right. How would you describe Kabarett and what sets German Kabarett apart from comedy traditions in other countries? Especially, how does it differ from stand-up comedy, which is so well known in English-speaking countries? 

Arnulf Rating

In stand-up comedy, the character is usually the deciding factor. It's usually a person who has a chip on their shoulder. However, most comedians have the great ability to relate this to themselves. And in Kabarett, it's more the case that where there's a character, the Kabarett artist is also there. It is kind of a double role, a double ground. But I wouldn't draw such a sharp dividing line. I think satire is a generic term, the bracket that connects the two.

But while camera artists often just get by, comedians can earn a lot of money, at least in Germany. Also, because they might have a wider presence and audience. Doesn't that appeal to you? When you talk about comedy in Germany, some people say that comedians make it because of the money, and the camera artists make it because of the money. That's going to be interesting to translate. 

Claudia Koeslter

Yes, yes, well. Well, Dan, come on. 

Dan Harris (07:18.06)

Well, I think, well, basically, both mean that they do it because of the money. But the first was in the dative case, which is colloquial and grammatically wrong. The second was a genitive case, less common, but correct. I think that's the right way to determine it. 

Arnulf Rating

Spot on. Yeah, absolutely. It's aimed at a certain educational difference of the audience, which doesn't necessarily have to be there. But as I said, I'm not a border guard on lines. I think, for example, what John Stewart has done or what Bassem Youssef is doing is some great satire. 

Dan Harris

Yes, and while the United States may not have a direct equivalent to Kabarett, political satire has long been a prominent feature of American comedy, as you know. Like as you mentioned, John Stewart, Bassem Youssef, and satirical shows like The Daily Show, which is quite popular now, and Saturday Night Live, which has been going on for, I don't know, 40 years or more. They often critique political figures in current events. Comedy clubs also provide a platform for comedians to address social and political issues in a manner akin to Kabarett. while British comedy has a strong tradition of satire and social commentary, as seen in shows like Spitting Image and The Thick of It. Comedy reviews such as those performed at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival often incorporated political themes and satires similar to Kabarett. So, do we have more in common than we think? 

Arnulf Rating

Yes, but we are often very focused on ourselves. I, for example, hardly get out of Germany, and basically, our reach is just up to Austria. Bassem Youssef actually comes from Egypt and was expelled from there. He then became an American citizen and earned himself a place on the Daily Show, which is how you quickly gain an international audience. The language alone is a barrier for us Germans, and perhaps there is also a bit of brooding tendency in German humour.

Arnulf Rating cont. (09:41.506)

But then again, you have to recognize that German humour has become very widespread and the fundamental base in Hollywood. For example, through Ernst Lubitsch. His great film To Be or Not To Be shaped the way the outside world dealt with fascism. Or the humour of Billy Wilder, who actually came from Galicia, grew up in Vienna, spent a long time in Berlin, and made incredibly funny films. Just think of ‘Some Like It Hot’. So, there's definitely something there. 

Dan Harris

You say, though, that the German Kabarett, in general, has a darker and more politically charged tone compared to comedy? 

Arnulf Rating

Yes, of course. Take our political Ash Wednesday, for example. I think I can laugh at anything, even the flattest of jokes; I've found a liberating life activity. And it gets rid of a lot of depression. That's important and good. But for performances on a political Ash Wednesday, I tell all my colleagues that it's a political performance. In case you don't know what I'm talking about, Ash Wednesday here in Germany is traditionally a day with local or regional gatherings of mostly larger German parties, and then the politicians bash each other rhetorically. When we Kabattisten do set up a show called Political Ash Wednesday, I want to talk about political problems. We have enough of them. I don't always want to hear about personal problems or the use of a poolside lifeguard. We have to deal with politics, and in Germany, we are simply shaped by history.

We haven't managed a revolution; we haven't seen a revolution, but we are rather reflective, which is perhaps a German-specific thing, I guess.

Dan Harris (11:52.312) Interlude

You're listening to Over Here, Over There with your hosts, Dan Harris and Claudia Koestler, and our special guests, German comedian and Kabarett artist, Arnulf Rating. You can check out our website at overhereoverthere.org, and we're available on all major podcast platforms. Now, back to our show.

Claudia Koestler (12:13.922)

Well, Germany has been a free and democratic state for more than 70 years. But not everything was and is good in the German state since then. How have social changes and political events influenced the themes and messages of Kabarett in recent decades? What topics do you choose for your performances today, and why? And can you give us an insight into your creative process?

Arnulf Rating

Well, I read the newspapers, and I read a lot of books, since this is the time when everyone immediately pulls out their cell phone and looks at data for every question. Don't get me wrong, of course, I Google too. My GP actually told me to Google three times a day. 

Dan Harris 

Very good. But oop bah!

Arnulf Rating

You understand it? 

Dan Harris

Yes, yes, that's great.

Arnulf Rating

Right, of course. I do that too. I use all sources of information. I also pick up the yellow press. I look at all sorts of things. I also like to look at people at the station, on the train, or in the streetcar, or anywhere. I see lots of costumes and character suggestions in everyday life situations, and I get lots of ideas. I always carry a little book with me, a little notebook that fits into my jacket. I write it all down, and then I usually sit down with my director once a year, and we construct a play that consists of lots of those ideas. During the rehearsal, you realize what works, what doesn't work yet, and if and where something new has to be added. The show and the performance then emerge from the discussion, but the basis is always observation. 

Dan Harris

What drew you personally to this particular form of comedic expression, and how has your background influenced your approach to Kabarett?

Arnulf Rating

I originally studied mathematics and physics back in the early 1970s, but I got bored with it at some point while the post-68 riots were raging outside. That's when I decided

Dan Harris (14:34.624)

along with a friend, that we needed to go where the action was, we needed to go to Berlin. I had always been enthusiastic about theatre and wanted to make my contribution to the movement, preferably in the theatre. That's why I enrolled in theatre studies. I never wanted to be an actor, but we rehearsed plays with young people. There, we always had to repeat the great improvisations. They came up with, as they didn't want to reproduce them. That's why we went on stage ourselves by the end. And that was a liberation. We realized that we didn't have to move anyone, didn't have to move society, we simply had to do something ourselves. Back then, it was all about what we call single-point movements, about the anti-nuclear movement, the peace movement, the squatter movement, and about redistribution in society. We then said we'd go to those initiatives and movements everywhere and have fun with them. We cheered them up. Those people were constantly in some sort of struggle or some kind of hot village dealing with severe problems. So, we said we'd go and make them happy.

One of our first events was at the occupation of the site of the nuclear power plant Gronde in Hanover, where we spontaneously went and got half a tray of apple pie as a thank you, which we thought was good enough. So, we kept on doing that. 

Claudia Koestler

So, one could also say you left the audience hungry. 

Arnulf Rating

Well, what or who makes you laugh when you need a good one? I'm not that funny, so I always enjoy being around entertaining people. I had a cousin, Frank, who told incredible stories wrapped up in jokes. I always thought that was great. I grew up in Wuppertal, which is my big theatre metropolis. Peter Zadek, who came from England, did one of his first productions there. His first play in Wuppertal was an anti-war play called Der Pott by John O'Casey. It's about a soccer team, and the center forward gets his leg shot off in the war, the First World War, so he's worth nothing afterwards. Back in the 1960s, in this play, a black man from the soccer team, which was at that time an absolute rarity in Germany, took the injured centre forward's head

into his lap and sang the German hymn, O Haupt, voll Blut und Wunden. That's Bach's hymn, and it's known over here as O Sacred Head, Now Wounded. And that the black man who was so provocative, Wuppertal is a very religious city. So, people just walked out of the theatre. But I thought to myself, that's a good medium. You can use theatre to make a difference. That's very good. I mean, Kabarett incorporates various artistic elements, including music, dramatic monologues, and comedic sketches. 

Dan Harris

Do you think this multidimensional approach allows a deeper exploration of complex issues and emotions? 

Arnulf Rating

It's always a question of what you want to deal with and what you're happy with. There are great comedians in Germany, like Mario Barth, who are interested in what's in the depths of a woman's handbag. If you stay on this level, you can achieve great comedic success. But if you have other questions, you have to take a different approach. For me, Kabarett is a form of theatre. One of my great role models is Dario Faure, an Italian, whom I will never reach and never imitate. I couldn't do that with his liveliness, with which he could tell a story in mixed roles. It's one-man theatre, and it's great. I like it very, very much if you take an approach to the theatre like Novalis, who said which means the theatre is an active reflection of people on themselves. Then it's actually the question of what you reflect on. What do you think about?

Arnulf Rating cont. (19:26.794)

What bothers you? It is often the political circumstances that disturb or bother you, or you are bothered by yourself. Back then, when we started with the three tornadoes, we caricatured ourselves without knowing it. How we weren't actually getting anywhere, talking big about revolutions, but not getting out of bed in the morning. That was an important thing. It was fun.

And I still enjoy dealing with myself and my own inhibitions today. That's a deeply human approach, isn't it? Exactly. And it gets funny when the goal and the movement don't match. You can achieve that every day. For example, I wanted to exercise this morning, and then I found an interesting book. And so, I did a more mental exercise instead. 

Dan Harris

Do you approach balancing humour and critique, especially in light of contemporary issues and sensitivities nowadays? 

Arnulf Rating

There have always been cliches. There has always been mentoring thinking, and there have always been downright prohibitions on thinking. I'm a child of the 1960s, where certain taboos were in place. For example, sexuality was taboo, authority was recognized, and I experienced how that could be broken down. What amazes me is that nowadays restrictions are working again. We had the feeling that taboos no longer existed, and now there are language rules again, and I think there will be a lot of distractions from the essential issues in society. The gap between a few rich people and many poor people is widening. That's the case all over the world. But we are talking about 67 genders instead of seeing the battle that is going on between top and bottom and bottom and top. We are concerned with the question of which people belong here. We are stirring up enmities on various levels.

Arnulf Rating cont. (21:46.912)

And all the while, people are getting upset because they want to be seen as a woman or something else. I don't find that upsetting. I find that beautiful and an enrichment. I don't care. Everyone is entitled to live as they like. Please do. But by focusing strongly on that as a topic, people forget to ask questions like, " Is there actually equal pay for everyone?

Let me give you another example. People have delivery services, people bring them a pizza, and these are often asylum seekers or people whose resident status has not been fully clarified, who have no idea of their rights and are therefore deprived of their minimum wage, and who cannot defend themselves because they are afraid that if they go to the police, They will be caught or thrown out. And this is deliberately exploited by companies, and yes, also by customers who think it's chic to order something like this pizza. I'm stunned by things like that in our society. Wokism may have blossomed in the USA and the UK, but we take it very, very seriously here. Perhaps even more seriously than in English-speaking countries.

So maybe that again is typically German. But I don't want to emphasize this issue too much because then I'm caught in this distraction trap myself. Kabarett performers use humour as a form of protest and dissent, and therefore, there can be a level of censorship and the degree of risk taken. 

Claudia Koestler

Did you ever experience those in your career? 

Arnulf Rating

Yeah, yes. We grew up with the Three Tornadoes during the hot phase of the terror attacks by the Red Army Faction, or in short, RAF. This time in the Federal Republic of Germany in 1977 is known as the German Autumn, and it was a very tense time. Back then, there was a news blackout that all the newspapers had heard about, which gave us the desire to develop our own newspaper. And we made fun

Arnulf Rating cont. (24:11.722)

A lot of things where the public thought the police would come and arrest us all. Which didn't happen. But then, we once made fun of the church satire about the Pope, which led to multiple trials and eventually a ban on performing for us. The then Pope was on a visit to Germany around the time we toured in Bavaria. There was a television in every guest house and pub.

We went, too, and the Pope was on in every one. We thought, how come we are never on telly, but just because an illegitimate child was born 2000 years ago, its successor is now permanently on TV. That thought led to a sketch about the birth story of Jesus, about Mary and Joseph. In bed at night, Joseph wants little action with Mary, but Mary says, no, not today, darling. And then Mary, whom I portrayed, confessed that she hadn't had her period. Joseph asked who that was, and then Mary said, " The Holy Ghost”. The sketch was broadcast on the radio, and then the Catholic Citizens Initiative got upset about it. We were sued three times for insulting a religious denomination, and it went on trial.

We were banned from performing, and it took us completely by surprise. We had never expected something like that to happen. There was also a nationwide TV ban, which was never officially announced but actually existed for five years, and a radio ban. But we survived artistically. But I remember that one mayor of a Bavarian town banned our performance.

So the promoter had to find a location a couple of meters outside the city limits where we still could perform. And some pupils who reprinted the sketch in their school newspaper were actually expelled. wow. Well, pupils were actually kicked out of school for a sketch about Mary and Joseph and the Immaculate Birth. 

Claudia Koestler (26:38.326)

But the brother of a now high-ranking Bavarian minister who distributed a Nazi pamphlet as a pupil at the very same time didn't see much of a consequence in his school. That is strange, isn't it? 

Arnulf Rating

Well, there are complaints that society gets less and less interested in the ongoing political situation. So, they want to turn off from that sort of thing. 

Claudia Koestler

Do you see a decline in audiences for Kabarett, and do you see it in the future in audiences or will the world in which we live need sharper analysts and people who can make you laugh and see it from a new perspective at the same time? 

Arnulf Rating

There are and will always be people in the audience who are interested in politics. But people nowadays are so moved by events, by the way certain topics are being talked about publicity, that sometimes you look pretty stupid with your little means of satire. It used to be that when we performed somewhere in a political context,

Three speakers would have already explained everything before our performance, and we didn't have to explain anything. We just had to discover and present the funny side of it. Today, you get the feeling that you have to explain a lot of the context and the connections that they don't know about. Because those topics, the context, and connections might not appear in the mainstream media.

In the so-called anti-social media, challenges play the main role. It's about proving yourself, showing yourself, or presenting yourself. Attracting attention is a classical capitalist problem, which, of course, every performing artist has, which is why so many of them are on those platforms. Strangely enough, I'm not that active there.

But you can see that it's no longer about topics, not necessarily about something that makes you think. It's about how to present something in a unique style. Remember the ice bucket challenge? Schadenfreude. Schadenfreude is a very much lived out and acted out there, not something that makes you think. What's Schadenfreude in English?

Dan Harris (29:00.982)

Schadenfreude is a unique German word. It's sometimes simply adopted in English-speaking countries because we don't have the word here, like zeitgeist or kindergarten. But basically, Schadenfreude means taking joy in the misery of others. 

Arnulf Rating

Yes, you see, I didn't know that. Interesting. 

Dan Harris

Yeah. And how do you navigate the intersection of global influences while staying true to the distinctiveness of German Kabarett? 

Arnulf Rating

During my theatre studies, we travelled a lot to London and New York, for example. We saw a lot of theatre plays there and got a lot of inspiration from them. In clubs, we could experience comedy that didn't exist here in Germany at all.

We went to pubs where the most outrageous things happened and discovered their humour and thoughts. That's exactly what we have to do in Germany, which impressed and motivated us. We felt we had to adopt that. We had to do that kind of performance, but with our own views and content. So, we brought something to Germany that didn't exist back then, but something that might have been here in the past. We established a performance event series called Blue Monday, where comedians, word artists, poet-o-slammers, poets, musicians, and artists all had a place. And we also decided that we had to bring German comedy to the fore and had British comedians fly in from London every time. They were always amazed that

In Germany, the audience was just sitting there listening, while back in the UK, they were used to performing in clubs and pubs with people talking and drinking beer. That was back in the 1990s time that when a woman went on stage in Germany, she was usually dressed as a cleaner. But the British comedians presented themselves on stage just as they were, without makeup and costume, and speaking freely.

Arnulf Rating (31:20.194)

That was something we admired a lot.

Dan Harris (interlude)

You're listening to Over Here, Over There. We'd like to thank our supporters and friends, including Tim and Catherine Mountain at Evenlode Films and Productions, and Chris Davis at Chris D. Projects in Cheltenham, UK, Fenny and Torben Lauridsen at Content Technologies in Munich, and Roger Winkler at Roger Winkler Design in Rochester, New York. You can find out more about our episodes at overheroverthere.org and on all major podcast platforms. Now back to our show.

Claudia Koestler

Well, German comedians have tried their hand at English from time to time with varying degrees of success, of course. Do Kabarett artists also try? Or to be more precise, have you ever tried or would you try? 

Arnulf Rating 

Some colleagues do that. I'm actually very bad at languages, and it takes me about three weeks in England or the USA to build up my vocabulary to the point where I can think in this language and understand. Without that, you're like a blind man in front of a wall of colour. You can't really bring anything you want to say to life. But a friend and I once were in the USA in New York, and we had run out of money, but we had to survive for another week until our plane went home. So we said we'd do a bit of Kabarett. Of course, we knew it would be difficult; we didn't really know how it would work. And then the nuclear power plant had just exploded in Harrisburg, a three-mile island. We were standing in New York, and the bird was sitting in a small park where it couldn't get up. A crowd had formed around it, and we commented on that scene with, " It's from Harrisburg, it's from Three Mile Island.” That was an instant laugh.

Arnulf Rating cont. (33:22.034)

That's when we realized we could do that. 

Dan Harris

Yes, that's very dark humour, yes, it strikes the point, doesn't it? It makes the point. I mean, do you believe it might either be important or a revelation for people from other countries to explore and understand this unique comedic tradition? I mean, what aspects of German Kabarett do you think might resonate with international audiences, as they say, travel well, and what might they find enriching to engage with? 

Arnulf Rating 

That would certainly be possible, but there's a language barrier to overcome. In the UK or the USA, you would certainly always have to perform in English, as very few people speak German. Nowadays, there are English-speaking comedy clubs in Berlin, even quite a few, but I have never heard that there are German-speaking clubs in London or New York.

Maybe our topics can be expressed in English, maybe that's an inadequate self-limitation that we don't perform more internationally. Bassem Youssef, who comes from Egypt, does his shows in English as a second language, and he has conquered the world with it. He is now touring all over the world. That would certainly greatly expand the market opportunities.

Do you know Steffen Möller? He is a German actor and Kabarettist who discovered the Polish language for himself and became a superstar in Poland, because he explained the Germans to the Polish. Then he tried to explain the Polish to the Germans, which was quite successful too. Isn't that a fantastic approach to international understanding? But when I think of the USA, where you can go to a club and experience that a black person, a Jew, and a white person throw their resentments towards each other, and it is perceived as absolutely funny and liberating. Maybe we still are too stifled by our history. Any performances like that here would be stopped in minutes. I like this very much, especially British humour, and I told you I'm very influenced by that.

Arnulf Rating cont. (35:47.72)

And I like it. I like the British way of life. I like it very much. And that's my difference in Germany. You know, I'm a little bit, you see it in my hair. I'm not brave and streamlined. And so, I have a lot of problems with Germans who are streamlined.

Dan Harris

Yeah, streamlined. I just narrow-minded. Just, you know, is that what you mean? Narrow-minded? 

Arnulf Rating

Yeah. 

Dan Harris

You know? Yeah. Good. Just as we talked a bit before earlier about whether you wanted to mention a few particular influences, like English influences or American influences, besides the programs we mentioned, certain specific artists, comedians that you followed as you were starting out.

Arnulf Rating

Yes, there is Ken Campbell, Ken Campbell Roadshow, which was famous for us. He came to Berlin in the early 1970s, and we are astonished. It was Anarki Pur, and I remember the first Muslim comedian, Shazia Mirza.

It was very close to the 9-11 event, and then Shazia Mirza came on stage wearing a headscarf and said, "My name is Shazia Mirza, so it is written on my pilot license." She was very radical humour, and she was there. The parents came from Pakistan, and they didn't go to the pubs where Shazia performed because the people drink their beer, and so they're Muslims. 

Dan Harris (38:07.406)

Yeah, right. Yes, well, that's, I mean, she must have a lot of courage to be standing up and being a comedian at that time and being a woman. 

Arnulf Rating

It was new, totally strange, also for the audience in Berlin, who came from England, and I think it's another spirit there. 

Dan Harris

And what about artists in the 60s and 70s, like I'm just trying to think the equivalent of Kabarett and like Lenny Bruce or George Carland or people like that. 

Arnulf Rating

That's something that you pay attention to, or did you? And a lot of German comedians and also Kabarettists went to England or went to New York to the comedy club and tried to learn from them.

Dan Harris

And what about the craziness about Monty Python and things like that? Because, I mean, Claudi was telling me this story about how it wasn't really shown on German television for quite a while. Is that right? It was almost like banned, especially that one sketch. 

Arnulf Rating

I remember just one, I love John Cleese. He’s a great performer and has great ideas. And I remember a sketch of Monty Python, when they show the difference between Catholics and Protestants. And the Protestants sit there and are all correct, and they have one child, and the Catholics have 12 children. 

Claudia Koestler

Every sperm is sacred.

Dan Harris

Do you yourself do anything in English more so? I mean, obviously, we're very honoured that you did this podcast in English. Do you hope to do more in and test the waters as far as Kabarett humour in English? 

Arnulf Rating

I don't think I'm able to do that. That's a problem. If I could do that, I would just start with that. I like the scene in London, the pubs, and the small clubs.

Arnulf Rating cont. (40:33.152)

And this is the scene I like. It's a little bit in Berlin, grows up with small clubs, and it's great. Even after the fall of the wall, it became more international, and it's very, very good. 

Dan Harris

You know, my brother was there just before he moved to Berlin, three months before the wall.

He was on Gneisenau Straße. 

Arnulf Rating

Yes. I lived there just around the corner. okay. 

Dan Harris

So right by two blocks from the wall. In fact, he was on the wall that night when it came down. He heard it on the radio that something was happening. And so he and his friends went down, and he got on the wall, and they were there. The first couple of people were there. He went up there, and then he jumped down to the other side and went and danced in East Berlin at a disco, not knowing if he was going to get back. And then he goes back, and there are all these klieg lights all over the wall on all the news and the media. You know, because he was out like for two or three hours in this club, and he goes back and climbs up the wall, and then goes over, and by daybreak, capitalist conglomerates knew what was happening. There were cigarette girls, Marlboro handing out cigarettes to East Berliners going into the West. They didn't miss a trick. 

Claudia Koestler

Welcome to the West. Yeah, welcome to the West. 

Dan Harris

Here are cigarettes. Fill your lungs. Here you go. 

Claudia Koestler

Get hooked. 

Arnulf Rating

There was a cigarette brand called ‘West’ at this time. 

Dan Harris

Then I went back five or 10 years later, and when I went to Alexanderplatz, it was besides the tour room that was there, you know, their hotel. Yeah. And then I went back and these huge like billboards, and I felt like an ant. I felt like an ant looking up at all these billboards of capitalists, you know, all these companies that were just

Dan Harris cont. (42:55.918)

all around Alexander Platz. I thought, " Whoa”, this has changed so quickly. I think it was like 10 years after. So, that must have had a tremendous effect on comedy and the reaction to these corporations coming in, and it would have been interesting to hear what the comedy scene was like. 

Arnulf Rating

It was a comedy. I wrote a Kabarett evening for the Kabarett in Halle. And so funny, there was a guy who went to the savings bank and wanted to have a credit of about half a million marks. The desk girl did not fit in those deals, and she said, do you have security? Yes, I have.

He was a pilot, and he rented a jet, and two weeks after, he landed in Halle at the airport and invited the Sparkassen Angestellte, the employees, to get in this, this is my plane. You can sit down and never sit in a plane and be astonished and great, and they gave him the money, and he paid the rent for the plane.

Claudia Koestler

Fake it till you make it. 

Arnulf Rating

So, it was so comedy in life that you can't top it. 

Dan Harris

Man, that takes a lot of courage, though, too, doesn't it? 

Claudia Koestler

Right, right. Where do you see the future of Kabarett headed, both within Germany and on a global stage? Are there emerging trends or shifts in audience preferences that you find particularly noteworthy or exciting?

Arnulf Rating

In my opinion, it was private television network companies who declared that people had to be able to sit in front of the TV with a six-pack and that things shouldn't be too complicated, otherwise they wouldn't understand. There are program directors and editors who are trained hairdressers, but changed careers due to allergies, and so they program is accordingly.

Arnulf Rating cont. (45:21.972)

Kabarett sometimes had the ability to reach large audiences like my colleagues Volker Pispels or Georg Schramm, who no longer work but who have achieved great success. However, Kabarett has never filled stadiums like comedian Maru Barth, but it has always been that the Kabarett audience is a smaller one. Fink, whom I told you about before, came on stage with his picture of Hitler in a small basement theatre. Often, it is the case that Kabarett performers develop and move on to bigger things. For example, Max Reinhardt in the 1920s started as a Kabarettist and ended up on the big theatre stage. Today, the municipal theatre system actually tends not to want to deal with current affairs and politics because they say it's Kabarett, and Kabarett is below our level. So, this art form might always be a bit smaller. There are also always voices that say Kabarett is dead. Sure, it is difficult for the audience. They probably all have subscribed to several streaming services and are hooked on shows and need to binge the next episodes. But in my opinion, Kabarett always has a chance.

It has been declared dead numerous times throughout its existence, but it is still here. The little people are ultimately the greatest anarchists. Enjoying anarchy, mixing things up, that actually works very well in Germany, because everything is always so very orderly there. Tearing it up with tongue in cheek will therefore always have an effect.

Dan Harris

Well, thank you. That's a great way to end. Arnulf, thanks very much for your time. It was absolutely fantastic to hear your views and to hear about Kabarett and everything else. We really enjoyed it, and I'm sure our audience has. 

Arnulf Rating

Okay, I hope the audience will enjoy it and understand it, and otherwise, you put it out of your podcast.

(laughter)

Dan Harris (47:40.942)

We'll do it. We'll definitely do it. Don't worry. It's going to be, it's going to be out there. Thank you for your patience, and thank you for your questions and your interest in that thing. Absolutely. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you very much, Arnulf. That was excellent. Really enjoy listening to you and learning more about Kabarett and your life story, and the perspectives you have throughout your career.

So that just leaves me the pleasure of thanking our special guests, entertainer and Kabarett artist, a philosopher with laughter, Arnulf Rating. You can find Arnulf at www.rating.de. Just before we close, we'd like to remind our listeners that they can subscribe to our podcast by clicking the button below. Over Here, Over There can be found on most major podcast platforms. You can also follow us on social media and today's podcast show notes can be found on our website, overhereoverthere.org, where you can also support us through Patreon, which we would appreciate very much. Polite, insightful, humorous, and constructive comments are also welcome in any language, so please be in touch. Check out our website for our next unmissable podcast. Until then, thank you for listening to Over Here, Over There.

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