250 Years of Hypocrisy? What a German Journalist Really Thinks About America

🎙️ LIVE from the Amerikahaus Munich | Over Here, Over There — The Podcast Across Borders

What does America really look like — from the outside?

German journalist and author Johanna Roth spent four years reporting from inside the United States as a foreign correspondent for one of Germany's most respected newspapers, Die Zeit. What she found was a country at war with its own ideals — a nation that proclaimed "all men are created equal" while enslaving human beings, that celebrates freedom while living in fear, and that wraps its deepest contradictions in the flag.

Her book "This is America — Is This America?" (published by Piper) is one of the most talked-about German-language analyses of the United States in years. And in this very special live episode, recorded on stage at the prestigious Amerikahaus Munich, your hosts Claudia Koestler and Dan Harris sit down with Johanna Roth for a candid, provocative, and deeply illuminating conversation — in both German and English.

🔥 In this episode, we ask:

Was America founded by hypocrites — and does that original sin still define the country today?
How close is American democracy to the edge?
Who really runs America right now — Trump, or the Tech Bros?
What do the 250 years between 1776 and today tell us about where the US is headed?
Should Europeans even travel to the United States anymore?
And: what can Germany and America learn from each other — if they're willing to listen?
📖 About Johanna Roth

Johanna Roth (b. 1989) trained at the Deutsche Journalistenschule in Munich, and holds degrees in literature and political science. She served as US correspondent for four years before moving to Brussels as EU correspondent. Unlike many of her generation, she arrived in America without nostalgia — and left with a clear-eyed, analytical portrait of a country in profound conflict with itself. Her book "This is America — Is This America?" is available now via Piper Verlag.

🏛️ About the Amerikahaus Munich

This episode was recorded live on stage at the Amerikahaus Munich — one of Germany's most important transatlantic cultural institutions, dedicated to fostering dialogue, understanding, and exchange between Europe and the United States. We are proud and grateful to partner with the Amerikahaus for this very special live recording.

🔗 Learn more: www.amerikahaus.de

🎧 About Over Here, Over There

Over Here, Over There — The Podcast Across Borders brings you sharp, honest, and human conversations about what divides and connects the US and Europe. Hosted by Claudia Koestler and Dan Harris, the podcast explores transatlantic politics, culture, and society — with the curiosity of an insider and the honesty of an outsider.

🌐 Website: www.overhereoverthere.org

Transcript

Intro - motion graphic and music

Claudia Koestler 0:28

Hello and welcome back to Overhere, Over There,

Introduction to Johanna Roth and Her Work

Claudia Koestler 0:30

, your podcast for transatlantic news and views. Today we're taking you live to the America House in Munich, where we spoke with German foreign correspondent and author Johanna Roth about her book on America: 250 years of ideals, contradictions, and the uncomfortable gap between the two.

Dan Harris 0:52

Hello, I'm Dan Harris, co-host of the Global Affairs Podcast Overhere, Over There, with my co-host, Claudia Koestler. And we're in for a very intriguing conversation in English here with a very astute author, young author, who we're delighted to have here tonight. And e works for Die Zeit, as a foreign correspondent. First, before I get into it with let that, me just say that, we are delighted here to be here with the uh America House as a as a for this evening, and that uh as far as our podcast goes, we'd like you to uh like, subscribe, share, and uh feel free to comment when you listen back to the 'space' to the podcast. So and we're delighted to have this 'space' wonderful audience here So, just to round offtonight. Johanna's bio, 'space' she was born in 1989, is a journalist, studied literature and political science, and completed her training at the Deutsche Journalistenschule in in Munich. She says of herself that as a teenager, she never fell prey to that well-known longing for the United States. And she doesn't share 'space' the nostalgia for America that perhaps the generation before 'space' her does. She came to know the US again at the age of thirty as a correspondent for the decide for four years and now is a correspondent for the paper in Brussels and Europe in general. She has written the book This Is America, is this America, which we will be discussing this evening. So please welcome Johanna Roth. Question, first question for you. You wrote that, and I have to share that I tend to agree with this, is that you write that the US was founded by hypocrites. Hypocrites.

Hypocrisy in America's Founding Principles

Dan Harris 2:40

Um, and I think that you're the hypocrites that I can think of when we used to talk about not just economy or various rights, but also 'space' those that owned slaves as well. Uh those were that's like I think it's the four or five of the founding fathers had slaves. Uh Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Franklin, and I'm missing somebody.

Johanna Roth 3:07

Franklin in earlier years.

Dan Harris 3:08

Franklin in earlier years, yeah. Yeah. And I mean over 200 years we we've lived that. We've had a racism problem for 250 years from the start. But how how do you see that as far as that contradiction? How has that shaped America since then?

Johanna Roth 3:27

It shaped it very much 'space' from the beginning, as you said. Um, and 'space' I mean hypocrites, of course, them being slave owners and signing the Declaration of Independence, which proclaimed that all men are created equal. I think it's pretty obvious. Um and I think the fact that we don't talk about that a lot 'space' in contemporary America, and it's never been really talked about a lot, " ", speaks to the fact that you just mentioned " " how it has " " how it's been present in US history and in 250 years. I

Divided America vs. Divided Germany

Johanna Roth 4:00

think the Civil War is a very important example. Um the the period of reconstruction, of attempted reconstruction, so-called reconstruction afterwards. Um, but it was it was the the conflict was militarily solved. Um there was a clear winner, which was the the United States North. Um, but society didn't agree. There was the so-called lost cause, " ", which is present until today. You see Confederate flags in the South. You have a president of the United States nowadays saying that " " or or complaining about muse" "s saying that slavery was all bad. I mean, that's pretty hard to imagine " " from a historic point of view, but yet it's what's happening right now. Yeah.

Claudia Koestler 4:45

There are lots of protests going on in the US. There are seven, eight million people sometimes out there with no king signs. And the phrase no kings actually goes back to 1776. And " " we here in Germany we have seen 'space' a democratic system fail. How close do you think the US is at on the edge? Is the democracy 'space' still 'space' intact? Is it going to be resilient or do you fear for it?

Johanna Roth 5:18

I

The Resilience of American Democracy

Johanna Roth 5:19

think it's more resilient than many feared, me included. Um there's obvious dangers, there's obvious attacks, and the Department of Justice is a pretty obvious example of democracy being under attack. It's become sort of an arm of Tr" "p's regime, I would say. Um he it's going after his political opponents. That is very concerning. There's a lot of concerning things. Um the Supreme Court is another example. However, it's not all coming down. Um, and it and there's definitely a chance in that. Um, and the Supreme Court, for example, is of course walking a very thin line too, trying to avert a constitutional crisis. And then you have, on the other hand, a right-wing majority sort of following in political footsteps of a whole generation that's been preparing for this. It's a very tense moment, I would say. Um, I'm a little more hopeful after writing this book than I used to be. I was very skeptical towards people who said, " ", you know, American democracy is stronger than Tr" "p. It will outlive Tr" "p because I I witnessed a lot of attacks " " and reported on it 'space' while reporting on it. There's been there were many crises in these 250 years, many very dark moments, " ", many divisions on various topics. Um But there was a lot of progress, " ", which was fought for very hard by " " by various groups of interest, by people of color, by women. Um so I'm I'm hopeful after all that's gonna be resilient. That's good to hear.

Racism and Inequality in America

Dan Harris 7:01

Yeah, we talked about the various 'space' divisions, and we all know the divisions that America's quite divided already. But 'space' one thing that as I was growing up in I was originally from upstate New York, that you heard in the 60s and the 70s, I'm dating myself. I I know you're just amazed that I'm that old, but anyway. But " " the one fear that the one thing that was going through the neighborhood that I was in, the talk was " " that we'll all be speaking Spanish in about 40 years. And the other example I would give in the 60s was there were lynchings, there were up to 1964, from like after the war to " " 1964, there was over 4,000 lynchings in the South. So you can just see how divided, you know, and how much hate there was even then. And there's, you know, so has it abated, has it stopped? And I guess besides the the I tend to think there's two things, and I want to get you get your feeling on this. Uh racism, one, has been with us since we talked about in the beginning. And then the thing that is also on top of that is inequality, the have and the have nots. How how did you see that when you were going around the United States and writing this book?

Johanna Roth 8:22

I think there's various examples of systemic racism. Um, these these two factors intertwining, you don't have to go to the south to see that. And " " it's you know, the attention towards that is 'space' scandalously low, in my opinion. Talking about privileges is " " even more difficult in in America than than elsewhere, I would say. Um what you just mentioned, " " the the lynchings, there's been thousands, about one percent of them was persecuted. So it prosecuted. Yes, prosecuted. Yes, sorry. Um so and there's only up to this day, there is one mon" "ent in the whole United States that is only dedicated to the victims of lynchings. Um it's not, it wasn't erected by the state or or the federal government, it was a private initiative, and I think that speaks to the level that it only just started a few years ago, " ", that America coming to terms with its past. Um, and the same goes for 'space' the the 'space' systemic racism that we see today, how present it is. It's just not being talked about enough, not at all.

Comparative Democratic Challenges: US and Germany

Claudia Koestler 9:33

Our country, my country, Germany, also has its reckoning with democratic resilience at the moment. We have the AFD, we have the debate about the firewall. Um, do you see the the challenges the US have and Germany and Europe have are the same or are they different?

Johanna Roth 9:52

Um I wouldn't say they're the same, clearly not. Um I think 'space' the US right now is a cautionary tale regarding the rule of law, definitely. I mean, that's where autocracy starts by dismantling the rule of law. We've seen that many times, and the US is no exception. Um the you mentioned the the Supreme Court then, " ", but it's also lower courts. Um you have the the fact that judges are oftentimes elected, in many cases in partisan elections. That's a very particular thing the US has that we don't have here. And another thing is gerrymandering, the manipulation of 'space' election, electoral districts. Um you couldn't do that here " " as easily as you can do it in the in the United States. So there's definitely structural flaws. Um I mean they're they're working with a constitution that is 238 years old. So there there's " " a big structural difference to begin with that is very 'space', I think important in that in that context.

Dan Harris 10:57

Aaron Powell Nowadays we have to talk about various influences, especially since " " Citizens United and political campaign contributions and how that has really distorted U.S. democracy and the advent of the tech bros and the power in Silicon Valley. And I've been in both in Washington and Silicon Valley. I worked on Capitol Hill and for the White House as a bipartisan task force for the Reagan administration. I I'll don't you know

The Influence of Money in American Politics

Dan Harris 11:27

'space' I won't tell you which one I'm I was 'space' 'space' on, but 'space' but anyway, 'space' and and in Silicon Valley, I mean there's the two power bases that you have in between Washington then, Washington now has been, you know, is is really got quite hostile, quite hostile. And the tech bros, since since 'space' Citizens 'space' United that 'space' changed our campaign financing has really distorted political action. What they can do, you can you can give so much as an individual, but you can give as a freedom of expression to a political action committee as much as you want. And when you have Elon Musk giving about 300 million, you can just start the political process. And so you know, what do you think as far as the impact? How sizable is it now, do you think, just to give people a feeling for that? I try to give a little bit there, but how is it also giving forward 'space' going forward, even after Tr" "p? What what what do you think? If you put your forecasting hat on there.

Johanna Roth 12:30

But you know, one thing that's interesting, especially about Citizens United, is that the the anger and the outrage towards that is actually bipartisan. Yeah. That's something that's enraging Tr" "p voters as well as Democrats, and yet it's happening. So " ", you know, that it's just an example of things that are actually common ground or could be common ground " " 'space' in the American public, and they are not. Um so 'space' I don't I'm hesitant towards the future. I mean, Elon Musk was 'space' the the one time he tried to to influence 'space' the election of a 'space' Supreme Court judge in Wisconsin, of the Wisconsin Supreme Court. He put a lot of money in there, he went there himself, 'space' he put himself on stage and he failed. Um that the candidate was not elected, the liberal candidate was elected. Yes. Um I think there was " " something that that definitely influenced him because he sort of star 'space' stopped " " the the the this operation.

Dan Harris 13:25

Um he was terribly unpopular as well himself, so that yes his he did not help the cause.

Johanna Roth 13:31

Yeah, and I think he realized that and he was h" "iliated. So 'space' in the end, personal h" "iliation might be more 'space' effective than any law or rule or regulation, whatever, in that in that ex 'space' example at least. Um so yeah, we're gonna we're gonna see. But it is definitely something you hear a lot from voters as well.

Dan Harris 13:50

Yeah, yeah. Well, our podcast is we you know, we try to learn from each other across borders. And and you know, you don't have to wait, you know, I'm " " I've got several citizenships, but I'm you know I'm American or whatever. But the question it'd be is really is " " like what can Germany learn from America and what can America learn from Germany if it's listening, do you think? Because, you know, let's face it, it's I mean power is very " "

Learning from Each Other: US and Germany

Dan Harris 14:19

deafening to those who have it, isn't it?

Johanna Roth 14:23

I've been living in the US or I lived in the US for for almost four years. Um now I'm in based in Belgi" ".

Dan Harris 14:29

So I think you can say if you want to say it, I don't don't mind me, you know, if you think that you know there's a bit of arrogance and you know 'space' whatever as far as the American policy goes, does we we we see that. We see that. And then but now it's being faced with Tr" "p is really calling " " really the the tune in certain respects, but the Europeans are fighting back, or at least standing up for themselves.

Johanna Roth 14:50

When it comes to Tr" "p, " " it it Europeans can learn from themselves. With the Greenland example, I think that was very telling his reaction " " that you he he respects when you stand up to him. I don't want to, you know, it it's not maybe " " you can't apply it in every situation, but I think that was definitely a situation that told a lot about dealing or doing politics " " with Tr" "p or in times of Tr" "pism. I think that's something that Europeans should remember. Um, you know, 'space' to what extent that's something that's to be learned from each other. Um and I'm not so sure.

Dan Harris 15:29

Yes, I know. It's 'space' I I think that it's gone from 'space' American exceptionalism 'space' to authoritarianism, and then we've gone from 'space' difficult times in the 30s here is Nazism to a federal republic in in a sense. It's it's I think the America does have a a lot to look at as far as how systems of and how your vote counts. You know, that's the as you mentioned earlier with the gerrymandarin. You know, a lot of people think now in the United States, their vote doesn't count. And they're and that's what 'space' the those who in power are trying to achieve.

Johanna Roth 16:06

Yeah, on the other hand, something that I learned in the US, something I've never seen here, is this enthusiasm of voters. A lot of them are " ", you know, enthusiastic about going to the polling station. Something you the the I voted stickers, " ", I voted bodies for babies. I've never seen that in Germany. Um, of course, not not all voters. There's a lot of " " the voter turnout in general is lower in the US, at least in federal elections. Um, but I was many times touched by how important it was for people in the US to go vote. Um, I've never seen that here. So that's definitely something we could learn from many Americans.

Dan Harris 16:49

What we're living through now is unique. And the one thing that's been 'space' a bulwark against changes that 'space' that are more anti-democratic, there's various levels in the in the court system. The top is the Supreme Court, then you have U.S. federal courts, and then other court systems down to the local level. And the the district courts are the ones that have been going against these things that whether it be tariffs or ICE immigration policies and stuff

The Role of the Supreme Court in Democracy

Dan Harris 17:18

like that. How 'space' much impact do you think this will have on the United States? What's happening with the Supreme Court being right of center, and those have very long implications, even though you have the district courts 'space' stopping some of the things that are going through.

Johanna Roth 17:37

We've seen one recent example of the Supreme Court " " issuing a decision " " about voting rights in Louisiana that has " " huge impact or will have huge impact, but I I don't think we've " " 'space' valued enough yet because it's 'space' it's an attack, I would say, on the Voting Rights Act, which was 'space' the law in 1965, which basically I would argue and and others argue too, 'space' made the US a true democracy. Um because before 'space' on paper " " everyone had the right to vote, but millions of people, " " 'space' people of color in the South were disenfranchised, were kept from exercising their right to vote. Um and that voting rights act enforced what was already a constitutional right " " and and kept states actively from 'space' disenfranchising voters. Um and now it's sort of turned back. It already happened in 2013 by the Supreme Court, arguing basically that it was no longer necessary. It was obvious that racism never disappeared. Um so it was still, you could still argue that that it is very necessary. And now you have this precedent by the U by the Supreme Court issued " " this past week that basically will enable various states to make it harder for people to vote. They will 'space' redistrict, as it's called, 'space' draw new maps of 'space' electoral districts, " ", and the the so-called redistricting moors are are gonna take up speed, that's that's for certain. Um, and Republicans in several states, all the in the South, by the way, have already started to call for special sessions of their state houses and senates to 'space' to make this happen before the midterm elections. So that is a definitely a big red warning sign of of what's happening and the power, the destructive power as well, the Supreme Court has. And and what you mentioned about district courts and federal courts, in the end, it all comes down to the Supreme Court, of course. It takes a while for a and and that's a basic principle of the rule of law for a for a case to go all the way up to to through the institutions to take its time, of course. Um but that applies to to you know, if if if you want to step certain things this administration is doing, it takes it may take time.

Dan Harris 20:13

Let me just cut to a point. Do you think that the Supreme Court, through its recent last 'space' opinions lasts 'space' 10 years, 15 years, is dismantling democracy? That's a pretty heavy one.

Johanna Roth 20:29

I wouldn't go that far. Also, I'm not a I'm looking right at her. Um I mean there there are experts who who might share that, who who might say that. Yeah. Um I can't recall who said that. It might be Ezra Klein in his podcast, 'space' podcast at the New York Times, who who talked about the Supreme Court and the possibility that it might be trying to avert a constitutional crisis by issuing decisions who sort of satisfy Tr" "p just enough to make him comply with the decisions of the Supreme Court. Because if you had the case of a president actively resisting a Supreme Court decision, what are you gonna do now? That would be a constitutional crisis that's never been there. So that's just one theory. Yeah, no, that's putting it out there. Um it's not mine, but " ", I mean, the and also the Supreme Court is issuing many decisions, right? There's not always the six to three majority. Um, there's a lot going on. There have been various important decisions along these partisan or ideological lines that that are have deep, deep impact on the electoral system, for example, " " on democracy in America. Um but as you mentioned, there's other institutions as well. Um there's Congress, who who might, after this midterm election and be taking up its its constitutional duty finally of of controlling " " the administration again. So we're gonna see.

Claudia Koestler 22:10

Yeah.

Reflections on the 250th Anniversary of the US

Claudia Koestler 22:11

This is a very significant year of course. I mean we uh will celebrate the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary of the US of A. How on to conclude on a very personal question, how are you going to spend the 4th of July this year?

Johanna Roth 22:26

Oh, I haven't thought about that. Watching the news. I mean " " I I won't be in the US this year. Um there there's a lot uh happening of course " " uh also from the administration side uh you all may have heard that the president is planning a wrestling match on the " " south lawn I think of the White House so I'm definitely gonna try to witness that from a distance. Um yeah I'm definitely gonna be observing " " I won't celebrate it in the US this year.

Claudia Koestler 22:58

Okay.

Johanna Roth 22:59

I did last year uh in a very American way with American families and had a wonderful day so I'm gonna think of that. Okay.

Dan Harris 23:07

Will you be covering the midterms as well? Probably yes okay we'll we'll look out for that thank you vielen Dankeschön

Outro, music and credits

Dan Harris 23:15

a very warm thank you to you Johan Robb for this enriching and ill" "inating discussion that we've had here today and for our wonderful audience and the wonderful questions that we've had at the America House in Munich and to the America House as well for your warm hospitality we very much appreciate it. If you enjoyed this episode we'd be delighted if you subscribe left a rating or dropped us a comment you can find us on all major podcast platforms and learn more about us in our episodes at our website at overheoverthere dot org. Thank you very much and thank you for being over here over there