Hustle Her
Hustle Her
Hustle Her - Amy
Meet Amy Ponnampalam, CEO of Athora Life Re Ltd a powerhouse in the world of insurance. Our conversation is a heart-pounding, deep-dive into her intriguing path from being a hotel waitress to leading a major company, stretching the limits of what's considered the 'traditional' career trajectory. We chat about her early days, an unexpected switch to actuarial science, her favorite color, and even her childhood celebrity crush. Amy's story is a testament to the audacity of veering off the well-trodden path, and it's as exciting as it sounds!
Amy's leadership journey doesn't stop at her impressive list of titles. She's a firm believer in creating high-performance cultures and shifting the archaic perceptions of CEO roles. Our conversation weaves through stories of managing diverse teams, embracing introspection, and her mother's influence in setting the bar high. Amy also candidly explores the depths of 'imposter syndrome', a common phenomenon that affects even the most accomplished professionals. We discuss the importance of identifying it, the power of supportive communities, and why sometimes, all you need is a good listener.
But we're not just talking business. We're pushing boundaries, challenging societal norms, and asking the big questions. How does family culture shape our choices? What pressures do we feel to make an impact? And how can we combat the stigma around choosing not to have children? Amy's personal experiences and insightful reflections provide new perspectives on these topics. So, buckle up for this rollercoaster ride of a conversation – it's not your everyday chitchat. Tune in, get inspired, and let's redefine success together.
It's time for hustle her podcast. I'm your host, deshae Keynes. Hustle her is all about inspiring women through real life experiences that have helped to mold and develop not only me but my guests into the entrepreneurs and leaders we are today. If you're an enterprising woman determined to succeed and looking for a bit of motivation, a bit of tough love and some actionable takeaways to be the best you girl, you are in the right place. Hey guys, and welcome back to hustle her podcast. So excited for you to join me here today and spending some time listening to the podcast. Make sure you subscribe to the page and you also head over to the website hustle her podcastcom to sign up to be our VIP listener. Thank you to our sponsors, brown and company, as well as 59 front Super excited about my guest today. She is the CEO of a Thorough Life Rea A Thorough Life Rea, amy Ponum Palam. Thank you so much for joining me today.
Speaker 2:No problem, happy to be here, yes. How are you? I'm good, thank you yes.
Speaker 1:Nervous. No, I'm okay yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, I think it's good. So Amy and I met at a dinner. What was it? It was a insurance up and clock, yes, and I remember thinking there at the table with you. We were just chatting away and I was like she'll be awesome to have on the podcast, and so I'm so excited that you're here with me today. Oh, thank you for having me. Yes, all right, so let's jump right in. We're going to do a few rapid fire questions and then we'll head into the interview. Okay, ready. Yeah, favorite color Red. Okay, and what was your first job?
Speaker 2:What was my first job? I think it was working in a. No, my very first job was actually being a waitress. I was a banqueting waitress in a hotel at the age of 15.
Speaker 1:Oh nice. I think I feel like everyone's worked in a hotel in some point in their life. All right, favorite time of the year Awesome. Okay, oh man, so you're in Bermuda? We don't really get an autumn.
Speaker 2:Well, we do, we kind of do it's not quite the same. Yeah, it's not quite this.
Speaker 1:Leaves don't change. It's not, you know, like ripe before winter type of vibe, but I get it. It's so pretty in autumn as well. Yeah, favorite animal Dog, big dog lover. Yeah, do you have a dog?
Speaker 2:I do have a dog. Yes, he is a mix. He's a terrier mix. I adopted him from the SPCA about a year ago, so he's good fun he's about, they think. They think he's about three and a half years old.
Speaker 1:They're not entirely sure His name is Scamp.
Speaker 2:So yeah, he's a real character.
Speaker 1:Oh, I love that. Okay, and what is your favorite thing to cook?
Speaker 2:Curry. So my heritage is Sri Lankan so we're Sri. Lankan Tamil. My family and I really enjoy Sri Lankan food and I like spicy food and actually, being in Bermuda, it's not that easy to come by.
Speaker 1:So the only way to get there?
Speaker 2:is to cook it yourself. So yeah, I'm a big curry fan.
Speaker 1:Okay, I love, love a good curry. So you're going to have to have me over for some Sri Lankan curry one day. All right, and so do you have? What word do you have a hard time pronouncing? Like when you think about it, you're like, ooh, I don't know that word.
Speaker 2:What word yeah? Any word, no I don't think so.
Speaker 1:I feel like you're not.
Speaker 2:You're going to come across the word at some point and I can't pronounce, nothing comes to mind, though, that's okay.
Speaker 1:All right, and when? Where was your last vacation?
Speaker 2:Um, my last vacation. Bizarrely, this is going to sound very uninteresting. My last vacation was London, which is where I'm from, and I go back there many times in the year for work, but this time, actually just over the cut match break, I went back for a holiday because I very rarely get to spend time with my friends and family in London, and London is a great city.
Speaker 1:Love London. Yeah, london's amazing, especially London in the summertime as well.
Speaker 2:Exactly I was pretty good, so I had, I took a week and I just spent that time catching up with old friends family and enjoying the city.
Speaker 1:It's some good car, not a very, not a very exotic holiday.
Speaker 2:I do another holiday book, okay, which is a yoga retreat in Southern California at the end of September, a yoga retreat.
Speaker 1:So your big yoga, your yogi, is what they do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do, yeah, I really enjoy it. Yeah, fitness, mental health, just absolutely I find it very helpful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, and who is your celebrity crush or who was your celebrity crush growing up?
Speaker 2:Okay, this is going to be really embarrassing, but I'm just going to say it. I was a huge new kid on the block fan, really, yeah. So anyone from that era will remember the delicious Jordan Knight, one of the Knight Brothers, the lead singer on the block. He is probably still, to this day, actually my celebrity crush.
Speaker 1:Oh right, amy, you learn something new every day. I wouldn't have expected, but I'm all right with it. So tell me about young Amy. Like what did you want to be when you wanted to grow up? Like, what were you like as a kid?
Speaker 2:I was a really outdoorsy child so we lived, my family and I. We lived outside of London, so kind of in the suburbs. I'm at a big garden. My dad was very into gardening so I would generally be outdoors with him quite a lot so we grew a lot of fruit and vegetables actually in our garden. So I spent a lot of time with him. I'd play with like the neighbor's kid as well. We'd always be digging holes or building a den and I just I was a really outdoorsy, active child and then kind of academia kicks in, I guess, once you get to about 11 or 12.
Speaker 2:So then I was, I guess, quite focused on school, but a bit of an all rounder, like very active. I like sport. What's your favorite sport? I mean at school I played netball. Okay, so our netball team, yeah, I mean I did. Yeah, I played a little bit of team sport and then I enjoyed running and as I got older I guess the exercise took more the more the form of fitness like running and going to the gym and that sort of thing.
Speaker 2:So yeah, what else should I say about myself as a child? That's probably a bit mischievous. I think if you asked my parents they would probably say that I'm the youngest of two. Okay, All girls or a good mix. Yeah, both girls, my older sister is about two years older than I am, so I was always the one who would push the boundaries and get into them trouble. But that's the deal with your, the younger child.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean you guys get away from murder. So I'm the oldest there, you go yeah. I might as well be the youngest too. So you've got a companion here in the room, but it comes to that. But no oldest, I guess the youngest ones. I feel like my youngest sister was raised so much differently than I was, like my parents were just completely different to her than they were to me. So I feel like you guys got off scot-free.
Speaker 2:I think that's probably true and probably got to do things earlier than my sister. Yeah, oh yeah 100%.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally agree. Like I remember vividly growing up and my I was an adult walk, you know. I moved out by then and I came home and my sister was just like laying on the bed, it was like four o'clock. My younger sister, dory, and it was like four, maybe five o'clock in the in the evening and I remember looking at her and I was like, is dad home? And she was like yeah, he's in his room and I go in the room and I'm like you saw Dory just laying down on the bed at four o'clock and he was like Tate, what is wrong with you? Like what? And I was like I vividly remember growing up and I was like 16 and I was just in between extracurricular activities, just laying down the bed, just really easy. My dad came in, why are you laying down? You should have something to do, homework, something, an extracurricular activity. And I'm just like where's this person that raised me? Like just comfortable, just on the bed, like there was no fear in her eyes at all. I would have been terrified.
Speaker 2:Yeah, completely different, and parents maybe lower the bar a little bit. One gets to number two.
Speaker 1:That's a larris no, but according to her she had it harder. So you know, you just never know. So what did your mom and dad do?
Speaker 2:So my dad was a chemical engineer, so he studied chemistry. He would do some teaching and then his last job before he retired from his career was he worked for the Ministry of Defense in the UK.
Speaker 2:So worked around kind of nuclear weapons and so, yeah, really kind of scientific guy. And then, yeah, a lot of his time was also spent teaching, so he would tutor kids as well who were doing chemistry at a senior level. And then my mom was an accountant so she had she qualified back in Sri Lanka, actually, where they were. They were both born and raised. And then she moved to the UK to marry my dad and then started working there and she took she took a good break while she had me and my sister, but then she did go back to work after that and, yeah, so she, she retired, she worked well into her sort of later life.
Speaker 1:So how would you say, like your parents kind of shaped who you are as a leader today?
Speaker 2:Gosh lots of ways. I think in our, I guess one of the cultures of our household was working hard. So everyone in our house worked hard my mom, my dad and my sister and me. There was there were no slackers, yeah, there was no downtime. You always pulled your weight.
Speaker 2:So I think that has definitely shaped how I lead in the types of organizations I like to work for as well, I think the sort of the academic focus as well.
Speaker 2:So my, my parents I guess you can see by their jobs they were quite academic people. So they really encouraged my sister and I to to focus on that school and importance of doing well and I think having that strong steer in my home life probably meant that I could achieve the academic success that I got in the end. It would have been much harder, I think, without that strong support from my parents and then my older sister, I think, because we were very close in age no, two years so everything that I was doing she had done two years earlier. So I always felt like I had this bit of a mentor, I suppose, or someone who's walked that path before me, who would and she was very helpful, like she would show me how things were done if I didn't really know. And so, yeah, I think a whole sort of family culture is one of kind of academia focus and sort of diligence, and that's what we all pride ourselves in, and what does your sister do?
Speaker 2:She's a doctor. She's a pediatric consultant in one of the hospitals in North London.
Speaker 1:Okay. So how did you end up in Bermuda? Because I feel like everyone your immediate family are still in London.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, exactly. So for me it was really a career choice. So I had done my. So I qualified as an Actuary in the UK, so working life insurance, and then wanted to get some overseas experience, and Bermuda is like the mother ship of all Actuaries. So I ended up looking at some jobs here and then I found one and then decided to just move here. So have a, have a stint abroad.
Speaker 2:And then, like a lot of people, ended up staying probably longer than I ever thought I would, and it's now been 12 out of the last 13 years. So I moved back to London for a year and then came back to join us, laura.
Speaker 1:Wow, okay, wow, I would have not have guessed. 12 years, like it's so crazy, someone being in this and never until that dinner I'd never seen you before. So it's so great. Bermuda is so small, like people think. You run into people all the time and then sometimes you're like, no, you don't run into everybody there, yeah. So when you, how did you get into insurance? Just the actuarial kind?
Speaker 2:of track. Exactly yeah, so I had. I feel like no one has a particularly inspiring story as to how they became an action.
Speaker 2:unfortunately, Mine is no less inspiring. So I'd actually wanted to be a vet when I was a child. I really loved animals and I had geared myself up to go to veterinary college. So in the UK that's actually very competitive. There's only a few schools off of veterinary science. So I'd done lots of work experience. I'd chosen subjects at the senior level which were which would line me up to go to veterinary college, which is basic biology, chemistry and then double maths. So I was all kind of geared up to go.
Speaker 2:And then it came to applying to university and I just changed my mind. I decided that it's just not the career for me. So I changed my mind at the very last minute and this degree called actuarial science, which I'd never heard of before, a careers advisor actually pointed it out to me and said well, you know, you're good at maths, you could do this. And I remember just looking at the careers guy thinking, well, sounds fine, tick the boxes. And then, before I know it I'm at university, did the degree and then there's graduate programs and things that you can join. So I joined Dunston Young, actually as a training actuary, and then, yeah, it almost feels like it wasn't really a conscious choice, I just ended up working in this field, and then you start your actuarial exams, so that's another path that you find yourself on. And then I finished those and then you know, before you know it, you've built a career and then off you go. It wasn't entirely conscious, yeah, I felt you're absolutely right.
Speaker 1:I don't think anyone kind of I think it's a little different now, with, like kids going away to school is like, okay, cool, I want to come back and work in insurance. But previous to this it was just anyone you talked to is like did anyone want to be an insurance? We kind of just like fell into it. So it's so crazy how everyone kind of has that similar story of insurance kind of happened to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, I'm particularly falling into life insurance as well, because I mean, you'll know from being in Bermuda, there's huge difference between life insurance and the PNC world, and that wasn't a conscious choice. I remember the graduate graduate program application form for Dunston Young and you don't tick a box to say where you want to end up, you just fill in a form to say I want to be an actuary and then they allocate you into a team. Okay. And I guess that whoever made that decision for me shaped the rest of my career, because I was in the life insurance team and then here I am.
Speaker 1:Thank you to whoever that was. Amy, thanks, there you go. So okay, so you came back to Bermuda to join us. So what were you doing before that?
Speaker 2:So I had moved to Bermuda in 2010, originally joined another reinsurance company here, hanover Life Free. So I was working with them as the corporate actuary and the chief risk officer, and that was actually my first foray into reinsurance. Up until then I'd always worked in insurance and consulting. So I worked with them for about seven years and then decided to move back to the UK, kind of to broaden my career out a little bit, actually, so away from the traditional actuarial space, and I took a job with legal and general in London working in corporate strategy, which was therefore looking at things that were well beyond the actuarial sphere, which I really enjoyed. But like buses, these things always come along at once. The author opportunity came up very shortly afterwards and I just thought this is a great step for me and the plans that author had were really exciting very new, great people involved. So I decided to then move back to Bermuda and take my current job with the author.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. So, as a CEO of author, like how many people reporting to you?
Speaker 2:So we have. So we have a reinsurance business unit which is spread across. We've got people in Bermuda, ireland, italy, london, one person's in Portugal, so we're having next work. We've got about 30, 30, 35 people now overall within our reinsurance business unit and all of that work then consolidates into what we I guess the top company that sits in Bermuda.
Speaker 1:Okay, so in, I guess, in the life space or in insurance in general, do you kind of feel like it's very male dominated?
Speaker 2:I think it varies a lot depending on which sides of the business you look at, so maybe sort of transactions side versus the more kind of corporate functions. I've noticed just again in my time in Bermuda it varies. It varies to some extent between life and on life. It can vary between Europe and North America, so I almost don't want to make a generic statement.
Speaker 1:No, I get it yeah.
Speaker 2:So my own experience has equally varied depending on which side of the business I've been on or which country I've been operating in. Yeah, there's some quite big differences.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so with like leading this group of people and like kind of pushing the mandate forward of the company that you work for, what have been some of the kind of I wouldn't say challenges but I guess challenges is a good word you know as not necessarily just a woman, just as a leader period that you've kind of seen, I think one of the biggest challenges and probably one of the greatest things I've learned in the job that I've had is about how different people are, how unique every individual is, and you know an organization can have an overarching culture and a lot of behaviors and values, but the individuals who work within a team are you know, it sounds like an obvious thing to say, but they are individual people their motivations are different to the next person and how the things that they respond positively to or negatively to will differ from person to person.
Speaker 2:So I think as a leader, I found it's sometimes challenging to really learn a person and understand what their drivers are, but I think it's really important to do that. Yeah, definitely, because one size just doesn't ever fit all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I tell people all the time like the people side of management is actually the harder side than actually the actual business. Like do you find like I've got the actual stuff down as the people side that takes the work?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, and yeah, I guess, bring it. My job and any job, I guess as a CEO, is to bring together the right people to perform to their best, because that's how the company then achieves its goals. So it's all about the people actually.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it's so true. It's so refreshing to hear a leader say that, because a lot of times we're so driven by the numbers and making the company money that we forget that there are people behind you know the numbers and the driving of the money as well. So hearing leaders say that I think is so important, Because I think I think it's becoming more common now, but previously to that we weren't as focused on the people side of it. Do you think or have you experienced something different in your career?
Speaker 2:I think we're maybe learning that more as time goes on and I see a lot of articles about the sort of changing role of the CEO, and this is always different based depending on which company you look at. The role of the CEO can look completely different in one company to another company. But I increasingly see kind of narrative and articles written about the CEO role being more one of service. Actually, this is the phrase that really resonates with me. It's a role, it's a position of service and not a position of power, and what that really means is that you are there to serve the people who are going to drive this business forward. So create teams, create work environments, create structures, create objectives, create alignment, motivation all of those things that these people need to be able to do their best work. And I feel like that's maybe a newer concept of leadership, quite different to maybe a more traditional CEO role you've seen, maybe 20 or 30 years ago, where it was probably more about power and hierarchy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely. So, as a leader, like, do you kind of look back at anyone who was your manager and you kind of mimic that? Or the opposite, you're like you know what? I had a bad manager and I do the complete opposite. Do you kind of think like that when you're leading? I do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, there are definitely leaders I've had in the past where I kind of cobble together things that they've done and you know, everyone does something as well and something that's good less well.
Speaker 2:So I guess I try and take the best of what I've seen from the people who've led me. I guess some of the sort of really strong traits that stick in my mind are setting a standard of excellence, like, I guess, another challenge I found when I took a role of leadership is that you can't do. You can't do everything yourself, so your only hope is that your team perform to the standard that you would, that you need them to, and a lot of that is about setting a culture of performance, high performance, and I learned that from people I've worked with before Like how do you set that culture of high performance and in some ways, my mom was one of the greatest, is one of the greatest leaders at this she set this culture of high performance for our whole family Right.
Speaker 1:I like that. I like that Looking at like my mom set the standard for the whole family. Yeah, I like never heard that before, but I genuinely like that Because when you think about it, your family kind of runs like a business in some senses right, and so if you pull from that and use your mom as an example of that and it's a successful family, then that works well too.
Speaker 2:Exactly so. I mean, she wasn't on us to do our homework and do it like that. It wasn't like that. It was more that she just. There was just a culture in our family which was you were expected to do well, almost without it being said. And I think that's exactly what I try and achieve now in an organization which is really it's about creating a culture of performance, so you don't have to be pushing every single person to get something done. It's just the way things work around here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so I mean with that, though you still get people who you do have to kind of give extras to like in your role. Like, obviously you have to find different things, like you said, that make people tick, that, you know, drive people in different ways when someone isn't performing well, like, how do you deal with that?
Speaker 2:I think, like trying to understand what is. What is the blocker? Yeah, Is it something within them? Is it something in their environment? And this is where the uniqueness of each person becomes really important to understand. And then is there a lever that you can pull to help that person do better in their jobs? Yeah, I think it's a really complex science, People. You can take a person and put them in one environment. They'll just flourish. And then you can put them in a different environment and they will just crumble and they're literally the same person with the same skill set. So you have to really work hard to think what is it about their environment that's making them either do well or not do so well?
Speaker 1:And that's been successful.
Speaker 2:You find in those environments like figuring out, like the why behind someone is in performing well, exactly, and then and I think this is where, then, organizational culture becomes quite important, because maybe there are some organizations that have a culture that just doesn't work for some people. It's important that everyone accepts that and that's okay. It's really important to choose an organization that fits you and you're chosen.
Speaker 1:Definitely, and we talk about this at work all the time and people say, oh, this person doesn't fit our culture.
Speaker 1:And I always correct people because I'm like no, it's up to the organization to welcome people in and adjust the culture to fit that particular person. Like, yes, as a you know, as an employee, I come in, I want to make sure that it's somewhere that I want to be, but as a business we have to shift to welcome everyone that we're essentially hiring into our door. So it's always a challenge a bit, because I feel like People get very comfortable with the teams that they have and they want a lot of like-minded people and not realizing that that diversity kind of Creates better teams. You know what I mean. Not everyone always sees that, but I guess, as a, as a female CEO and I want to keep emphasizing that because obviously hustle her podcast, but here are a leader regardless yeah, it has there been any challenges with leading men, like, do you ever find difficulty with that? Or even women, is there any difficulties with? You know the different sexes in your environment?
Speaker 2:I think. No, I'll be very introspective on this point. I think the biggest challenge in some ways is myself, and this again, I guess, goes back in a way to how my generation of women were raised, which is there was a lot, and there's probably still is today, a lot of gender conditioning and and with myself and my sister and we were raised in a certain way the way that little girls were raised, 40 years ago which is to be nice and be polite and not be disruptive.
Speaker 2:And you know, feel good when you make other people happy and not cause any trouble. And be diligent yeah, always always trying to your best and Not offending people, not having a contrarian view. So now I could go on, but I'm stereotyping a bit here, but it's. There was a lot of that sort of gender conditioning that went on with us when we were kids and we carry that through into our adult lives. And then when you then find yourself in an organization where you're dealing with men and women and you know all kinds of people, sometimes that mindset can be your own worst enemy, because you hold yourself back and I think that that can sometimes happen when Women interact with men probably vice versa as well that you you anchor back to some of those learnings you had when you were a child about what, what is what is a good, what is a good engagement model for a girl and a boy, and then you bring that into the workplace and it's not helpful actually no, I think, absolutely right.
Speaker 1:We sometimes, you know, revert back to how we were raised because that worked for so long for so many people. And I guess you know, when I think about Women in leadership or entrepreneurs or things like that, I wonder what, like our grandparents or great-grandparents would think about, you know, women in leadership now, like how different like the household looks, you know, to working parents, or To people who are married but don't have kids. Or you know, single women who are Thriving in life without being married or having kids, like I wonder what they think about. You know, oh, what they would think about of that lifestyle that we all kind of live now. It's very different To how we were all raised and my grandmother still acts me all the time when I'm having a kid.
Speaker 2:So Exactly, I mean those. It's difficult to lose those mindset, yeah, but over time I think they change, and I know I've got two nieces here, At 8 and 10. Now I can already see they challenge the world in a way that we never did. And it was but it's more importantly, we make it okay for them to do that. So I guess over time this is how kids will be raised and we'll start to lose that Gender conditioning and we bring into the workplace, which is really unhelpful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely. So you mentioned before about you being introspective and how you were raised. Like how do you, when you're thinking of something, you're dealing with it as a leader, you know making decisions for the business. How do you come out of that mindset of how you were raised?
Speaker 2:I think it's a lot of it is trying to be aware, just having the self-awareness. So if I'm, if I find myself in a situation which I'm not comfortable in or there's a problem and I can't solve it, then I do try and check myself and think how am I behaving here? What, what's troubling me? Yeah, and is it a real problem or is it just a mindset problem? Yeah, is there a way to reframe this Such that maybe, maybe it's not actually a problem at all? Yeah, and then a lot of it comes down to actually how you feel, and you know what.
Speaker 2:One of the sort of classic gender conditioning issues that females have is wanting to please and feeling, actually feeling upset about yourself if you've displeased somebody, yeah, and learning to be identify that feeling and then and be okay with it. And sometimes looking at men can be quite helpful. Yeah, I think a lot of women use that whole. You know, what would a guy do? I think it's actually helpful to think about that. Yeah, would the guy sitting next to me feel this way if he said what I said? That's usually no.
Speaker 2:Yeah so there's a lot to learn, and there's a lot to learn, I think, from that If we're gonna try and sort of place this gender gap.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think so I totally agree with you. I think a lot of times we as women, we overthink scenarios To to your point that men just would say it or just do it without even thinking about it. You have the classic, you know, when a woman applies for a job, like she has to have like every line item on the job description. She has to, you know, essentially be qualified to do that before she applies. Where, with a man, if he could see two or three things on there that he can do, he's like, yeah, I could do that job and I'm gonna apply for it.
Speaker 1:It's like how do we change that conditioning when it comes to women, to just kind of go for things because we can do it as well? I wonder, how do we shift that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think there's. I think self-awareness is part of it. I think organizations can also be helpful here at supporting women in catching themselves out if they're doing something that really isn't. You know, it's just playing into a gender role.
Speaker 1:I mean.
Speaker 2:I think another kind of classic Issue that befalls a lot of women is picking up what the sort of domestic work of the office, mm-hmm, or a meeting, yeah, you know being the person who coordinates and Corrals everyone together and, yeah, set up the next meeting. And before you know it, you've done a whole pile of stuff that no one else stepped up to do this. So why did you so? And I think I think organizations and leaders can do a lot to Deliberately call that out and support women. If you see, if you see a woman stepping into that role, just maybe say, look, you don't need to do that.
Speaker 2:And if you're actually a leader, you could say well, actually I think I'm gonna sign this job to somebody else. Mm-hmm doesn't have to be a guy, mm-hmm, it just has to be someone. That isn't the person who just stepped into it, because she identifies that as being her job.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's so important. I think that's where our leader leadership comes in heavy. With that, you know what I mean, because a lot of times, some leaders not everyone, can just allows people to kind of just do what they're, what they just want to do or not naturally good at, sometimes not realizing it takes away from what they're actually being hired to do. So you know, yeah, okay, cool, could you get that glass of water for the person sitting next to? Yeah, you could. But should you, or is that something that you need to do, or is it someone else's job? Yeah, and just thinking about it, because you're absolutely right, sometimes will organize something just because I Don't even think, because I'm a woman, just because I I could do it. You know what I mean, and you don't. I don't think men think that way. You know it's like, oh, someone else would do it, and it's so interesting that we are just innately like that without Thinking anything else, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly yeah, and I think you know we're making a lot of generalizations here. Yeah, I think, I think spotting when that does happen, because gender conditioning is a prevalent thing, mm-hmm. So spotting it when it is happening and then making a switch in how the organization is working so that you can save the person from themselves in a way.
Speaker 1:I think that's really important yeah so having, like you know, this really huge job running a company like, how is that affected your personal life, or does it at all it?
Speaker 2:does. I mean it takes a lot of time. It takes a lot of time and energy. Actually, I think is probably the bigger part it's the energy that it consumes. So yeah, depending on how, how things are going at work, some sometimes work gives you energy and that, I guess, reflects in my personal life when.
Speaker 2:I feel good and I can do lots of things my spare time, but then there are times when it's very demanding and it drains my energy. And creating a bit of time to replenish the battery store in a way before heading back into the office, that but that has become very important. Yeah, I think as I've gotten older, I've become more aware of health importance, of preserving and maintaining your health. I think we all know that stressful corporate jobs are bad. Yeah, for your long-term health. At least they're bad if you don't manage them very carefully.
Speaker 2:And now I'm in my 40s, and Is that age where your body doesn't recover from things, if you let?
Speaker 1:them go as quickly as it used to, yeah exactly and, if at all, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I'm more mindful of that of my, of my own health and. I'm like recognizing when work is becoming a health problem, whether then that's about taking a bit of time off or If I'm not getting enough sleep, which then impacts diet and your ability to exercise. You know I try and spot these things now, probably more than I would have done in the past. Yeah, and try and make them make a correction.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I think I totally agree with you. We did something the other day I can't remember what it was on like a Friday evening. Oh, it's my job summer party. We did something on the job summer party on the Friday and then I had a friend of mine's birthday dinner that night and then, like the Saturday afternoon, she had a boat and on Sunday I was like why do I feel like I've been hit by a truck, right, and I'm like just doing like three things in a row like that?
Speaker 1:I just can't do it anymore. Like I got to pick one. Yeah, that's it. I need a day to recover, you know, and it wasn't even like a heavy you know drinking thing or anything like that. It was just like draining in terms of the amount of stuff that we had to do just being on the water. And I think like even five years ago I would have done that without even blinking. And like now, monday morning, I was just so sluggish and it's just like, wow, you know, you just don't even take into account how much your body changes as a woman, in particular as you get older, and I mean I don't have any kids or anything like that, or married or anything. So I couldn't imagine, you know, having that on top of you know a pretty heavy, stressful weekend as well. It's just incredibly insane.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah it's crazy times that we all live in but yeah, yeah, yeah, making time to rest and get your energy back and I get and also to reconnect with yourself as well. I think, with many jobs to get lost in, lost in who you are and your work identity, and then lose sight of who you really are.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely. So I mean, obviously you know you've made it to very successfully in career currently, but how did you kind of market yourself in that way to where, when the authority opportunity came up, you know you were, you know, tapped on the shoulder for that, like how would you say you marketed yourself throughout your career?
Speaker 2:So this is probably not really what you want to hear, but the quote yeah, I didn't really. I don't. I don't think I did market myself. It's almost. It was again a bit of a unconscious, conscious thing that just happened. However, on reflection I can see how I probably did market myself. I just didn't realize it Got you. So, to get me into the roles that I have found myself in, I think that that sort of diligence has been a big part of it, in that everywhere every role I've had, I've delivered well, mm-hmm, and I think that is quite attractive to the job market.
Speaker 2:Absolutely someone who can really create a change and leave a legacy. I think that has probably been part of my my brand, I guess, and that's probably what my employers have bought into. I think the the thing with life insurance is it's a very technical area of work and therefore, even when you're in a position of leadership, it can be very helpful if you do have a technical understanding of what the heck is going on.
Speaker 2:You don't have to, but it's certainly helpful, and I think my technical training as an actuary has then lent itself very well to me becoming probably a more effective leader of a life insurance company, because I can understand everything that's happening within the business. Now, that can be a double-edged sword, if I'm honest, because I think you can sometimes fall back to what you know, which is your technical skill set. Yeah, and I have to sometimes remind myself that's not my job anymore and there are other perfectly confident people in our organization to do that, and it doesn't need to be me. But I've certainly had this feedback from my own team, which is that they appreciate the technical insight I can bring, just given that I've got a technical background.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I think that's probably also been part of my brand. I guess.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, you mentioned it just now as well about your brand and you said just doing really well at your job. But I feel like that started just from your mom as the CEO of your family just instilling that in you right and just doing well, and sometimes you don't need to do anything a little bit extra, sometimes you do. Being good at your job and excelling at that is your brand as well, right? I think people don't give a lot of credit to that, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. I heard someone recently put it, fraser, as me being quite an action-oriented leader, which is true, like I lead through action. Now, this is something that I would personally also like to work on more, in that there are also leaders who don't lead through action.
Speaker 2:They lead more through kind of winning hearts and minds and I think when you're in very large organizations can really try to leverage scale. The winning hearts and minds part is more important than the action-oriented leadership and that's probably something I would like to do the next stage of my career really learn a bit more about how to do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think, but it's knowing the right type of leader that you need to be for your organization at that particular time. Right, and depending on where your organization is like, being an action leader is what it may need right now. You know, and I think a good leader adapts for whatever their organization needs at the time and maybe that's just what your organization needs at the moment for it to continue to be successful. Yeah, but you know, I think I think we all have it in us to do that by hearts and minds, but I feel like you do that too, based on what you said about each person being, you know, different and trying to pull differences out of different people, especially if they're not doing well. So I think it's a bit of both.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, no, that's that's and it's a great point you make that it does depend on where your organization is at. You're right. I mean, I joined Athora we were startup organizations, so there is no shortage of action needed, exactly. So, you know, part of part of our, our corporate identity was roll your sleeves up and get stuck in, so that I guess that's what I've done for nearly six years now. But as as we've grown and we've become becoming bigger, that that we need less of that because there's other people who can do that, and then we need more of the sort of leading at scale type of people.
Speaker 1:So yeah, so if you could go back to 18 year old Amy and say, out of everything you know now, like what would you tell her?
Speaker 2:Oh, my goodness, what would I tell my 18 year old? What would I tell? I don't know what the words would be, but I'd somehow try and find a way to cut the imposter syndrome at the source. I feel that, yeah, I think that probably started at that age where you're going out into the big wide world and you start questioning do I, should I be here?
Speaker 2:Do I deserve to be here. Is everyone else just better than me? And I'm somehow here by chance or by luck, and I certainly had that from probably from going, yeah, university age really onwards, really, I think, yeah, going back to say to that younger version of myself just forget about the imposter syndrome. You know you're here because you deserve to be here and the minute you don't deserve to be here, you'll be out, don't forget that either.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:So you know, make the most of it. Yeah, I think that's probably what I would.
Speaker 1:How did you deal with imposter syndrome?
Speaker 2:Again, I guess awareness is the thing, like I can put a word to it now. When I was 18.
Speaker 1:I definitely think we knew what imposter syndrome was when we were younger right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was just a sort of feel, a very uncomfortable feeling. So being able to put a word to it is helpful, because then you can actually talk about it with people. I think that's it. To be honest, I think it was always present. I don't know if that's the female thing.
Speaker 2:I know guys who suffer the same but, there was an element of learning to live with it. I think, yeah, to be honest, I think, as the awareness of it has grown and more of my friend we talk about it more now in my friend circles yeah, and knowing you're not by yourself, other people feel the same way that all of that helps.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's just creates a bit of a support.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think the support, like what you said, is super key being able to talk to your friends about it. Like you know, have a group of friends, like if I'm feeling a type of way, I'm just like, am I missing something here? Like no, you can do it. You know what I mean. That support is key. It is key, yeah, having the people in your corner and also friends that are in industry as well, so they also get it. Like it's nothing worse than having a hard day or something going on and trying to have to explain it to someone and you're just like, okay, it's taking this thing out of it because I've got to explain to you what happened. So it's always nice to you know, talk to people who get it right, yeah, so it's always really good.
Speaker 2:And then their eyes glaze over because whatever work situation sounds incredibly dull to them. I know.
Speaker 1:I know, but dating too like dating someone and trying to explain to them what's happening at work I'm like, okay, I'm done, I can't, I can't, I can't explain to you the characters in the story and then tell you what's wrong. It becomes like a whole different thing, but it is what it is, yeah.
Speaker 2:But it is important to be able to offload. Yes, I think it's a one-win. You have to, though the things that are happening.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I do this at work now as well and I can't remember where I got it from. But when someone's offloading to me, I immediately ask. I said, do you want feedback? Or you were just venting? Like I need to know the difference. Okay, because I go into action mode right Of how can we solve this, right, and so for me it saved a lot of personally arguments and then professionally, people just wanting to offload just to get it, you know, off of them, as opposed to just wanting, like actionable feedback and takeaways. So they can. So they can do it. But every time I think about that I share with everybody. I'm just like do you want feedback or are you just venting to me right now? Because I feel like it allows people to free up and you don't feel as obligated to have to give back.
Speaker 2:You know what they should do in that particular scenario Exactly, it's a great question to ask because they would then generally get what they want, rather than what you think they want Exactly.
Speaker 1:Sometimes people I don't. I wish people more people would ask me, because I actually don't want your feedback, I just want you to listen to me, listen to me complain about whatever it is for two seconds, and then I kind of feel better after that, yeah, yeah, we all need a bit of that. Yeah, For sure. So what would you say is something that people kind of misunderstand about you and like when you hear it about yourself, you're like that's not me at all.
Speaker 2:So sometimes I think my action orientation can be perceived as being almost two action oriented, two like two driven, which is something I really it's taken me some time to understand why this is a problem. Yeah, maybe this also goes back to my again, my family culture and how we were built, which is the harder you work the better. Like there's no, there's no end to how hard you could work and therefore how much you could achieve. Now I recognize in the workplace sometimes driving, driving too hard can be uncomfortable for some people because not everyone is at the same gear. I think I've also become aware of the difference between Well, I guess my definition of leadership is a person that people want to follow, and following someone is very different to pushing them. One is you're in front and the other one is you're behind, and pushing from behind can be quite an uncomfortable dynamic for people. Leading from the front, however, is generally a motivating place for other people than to be.
Speaker 2:So understanding that difference has been important for me and also recognizing how sometimes my action orientation can feel like I'm pushing from behind, which is just annoying actually sometimes. So trying to reposition that trait that I have into one that works better from a point of leadership than just pushing people along is yeah, that's. I feel like it's a misconception, but it's also something I need to try and change about how I operate.
Speaker 1:Do you kind of I wouldn't say regret, but do you think that you would have seen more of a balance kind of growing up from that environment, that culture like yes, push, push, push, achieve, achieve, achieve, but also the other side of it as well, where it's a bit more relaxing, a bit more not necessarily relaxing but a bit more comforting in the or in not necessarily in the family unit, but it's okay to not fail but be a bit more comfortable in certain scenarios. So I think that would have helped with it, or do you appreciate that kind of foundation?
Speaker 2:I think if I had. I think a question is if I had more of that in my family culture would. I then identify with it more and I think the answer would be yes, yeah, definitely, but that we didn't really, we don't really have that element in our you know, our family, as I say. So, yeah, I think having the experiences of that earlier on in my life would have made me more aware of what that means.
Speaker 1:Do you think that that's cultural? Like I'm from your parents being from Sri Lanka. Like do you think that's more of a cultural thing, or was it just your family unit?
Speaker 2:I think it's just my family. There's probably an element of culture to it as well, but but I think you know my both of my parents are one of 10 children, so we have huge families Wow, huge families.
Speaker 2:We have huge families and my mom so my mom was the second oldest in her family and it's so interesting talking to her siblings, who we're all very close to, but they, she was always this person who would. She would drive things forward like really person achieve and person achieve that was. That was who she was, so definitely wasn't part of their family culture.
Speaker 1:It was just her.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I think it was more. It's more a personality trait, to be honest.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but see that older siblings you push right, yeah, like you become like the driving force behind your siblings. So that actually makes a lot more sense now. But 10, 10 on either side is a lot. So are you aiming for 10, 10 kids?
Speaker 2:Definitely not.
Speaker 1:I have some total of zero. Yeah, just the dog. Yeah, just the dog Same here. I know my dog lives my mom now though, so it's unfortunate, but it's okay.
Speaker 2:I wouldn't rule out 10 dogs at some point in the future, though 10 dogs really Okay.
Speaker 1:Any kids would you want, or no? No, I don't.
Speaker 2:I don't think so.
Speaker 1:I love the fact that you said that, and not because you know is anything wrong with it or with it. But I feel like women sometimes are very afraid to say that because, back to what you said earlier, we're conditioned to want to get married and have children and not, and if you're not, you're almost not as accomplished as people who are. So I'm very pleasantly surprised but happy that you said no, because it's okay, right, Like it's okay to be fulfilled with your 10 dogs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly Right, yeah. And I think this is a changing condition, now that it's becoming more okay and it's just up to say I don't want, I don't want children. I decide to not have children, and I had just again, almost by chance. If I look at my immediate friends circle, very few of them actually have children, so in my world I'm not even in the minority. There's a number of women who felt similarly to the way I felt, and I think that'll become more and more common as well as time goes on.
Speaker 1:I agree with you, it's so. It's weird though, because I am in my friend circle. It was like that, but now it's slowly changing, like people are either getting married or divorcing and some of them are having kids now. So I'm in like this weird place where it's like some of us aren't and then some of us are, but all really high functioning, high performing women. But it's so strange because I'm in a very similar like do I want to or do I not, kind of phase in life. So that's why I said I like that. You said that, because it is very rarely. Do you hear it very, very rarely? Yeah, yeah, I don't hear it more. Yeah, I think. So I think it'll come up. How does your family feel about that?
Speaker 2:I mean, I don't know, I should ask them. I think it's evolved over time.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'm also at now, at a later age, where they would know that having children wouldn't be that straightforward for me. So I'm showing my younger years it would have been something they would have hoped for for me and I would have done too. I mean, I was. I also had that vision, you know, when I was 22, I assumed I would at some point have a family and kids and just do all the things that my mum did. So over time, I think the expectation that I've had of myself and that they've had of me has just, has just changed. I mean, I never thought my life would take me to where I am today, and so the idea of having children has also moved around and sort of shuffled around with that.
Speaker 2:And it's the same with no relation. Obviously you want a relationship. Ideally, if you're going to have a child, yeah, you don't have to have one, but you, I think again, if that's generally your expectation when you're younger. So if that doesn't work out, then maybe children never really happened for you. And then my family's always, I guess, just been an observer as to how my life has played out, and it's just good, yeah, exactly. And then it accepted it as we are.
Speaker 1:And you're fulfilled and you love life and you don't feel like you're lacking, because I feel like people think when women don't have children or are not married, they're lacking in some way, and you don't seem like you feel that way at all.
Speaker 2:No, I don't feel like I'm lacking, but I do feel this. I'm not sure if it's linked to not having kids. I do feel this sort of sense of pressure to do something really impactful for the earth before I leave. Now, I don't know if, when you have children, you feel like, well, they're impactful for the earth and they'll be here when I leave, so that's you know I've done my thing and therefore, if you don't have kids, that's maybe that's why I feel this, but it certainly is.
Speaker 2:I get now into my forties. I really think I spent a lot of. I've spent a lot of my time myself and I building up my career and working hard and looking after myself. And now I look at the wider world and think, well, what am I doing really for the wider world? What will be the thing that I do that makes an impact here? So, yeah, I definitely feel a sense of urgency, almost to figure out what that is.
Speaker 1:Figure out what that looks like. I mean, the world is forever changing, goodness gracious. Every day we look at something else happening that we're like how is that even happening? We thought the pandemic was the end, but apparently it's not. It's crazy. But yeah, figuring that out, I think, is really good. So when you think of like your best time to work, like what would you consider like your zone of genius? Like, are you a morning person? Do you get things better done in the afternoon? What's your like zone of genius? This is Amy's time to just knock out work.
Speaker 2:Probably evening, pre-evening time, I think, if I want to focus and get something done, that's. I think that's probably when I'm most productive. I'm definitely a person who is affected by all the interference that we get day to day from emails and all this kind of stuff. I always find I travel back to the UK quite a lot and then to the flight back from London to Bermuda is it's an afternoon flight six, seven hours. I never connect the Wi-Fi but I work the whole way home with no Wi-Fi connection because I live. There's always sort of three or four things that need that deep focus time and I use that time to get those things done and I inevitably then ends at six hours. Just think this is amazing.
Speaker 2:Why don't I do this? Why should I switch off my Wi-Fi in my house.
Speaker 2:And just knock out work and just knock out work and you get. I don't get into that flow mindset very frequently during my day. My typical day is just a series of meetings and calls, a range of topics in between, trying to stay on top of emails, talking to people, constantly talking to people. Actually, it's just constantly talking to people. So that mindset where you're just silent and it's just you and the job you're trying to do. I don't have a lot of that, so I value that time. I do often think I should just really recreate this more.
Speaker 1:It's difficult, though, that Wi-Fi switches. That's hard to take it all, it is Exactly. So you got to take advantage of that time. What, would you kind of say, is your most, your proudest moment so far as a leader? Like what are you, like, the most proud of your that you've accomplished?
Speaker 2:So I share this with my own boss at work. I talk about these moments of magic and I think, working with an organization like Athora probably any large organization there's a lot of chaos and mess and challenge and strife. That goes on. And then, every now and then, you get what I call these moments of magic, where I watch the people in the room interact with each other and sort of generate and create and build and then deliver something and I just think, my goodness, like this is what it's all about. Yeah, you know, you, let's say, this kind of CEO role is like one of service. Is you kind of want to create the climate where that can happen? And then when you see that happening, that's really satisfying and I that that's how I feel like, oh, it's work, it's working.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely the light bulb moment. Oh wow, all this hard work, it's finally paying off.
Speaker 2:Exactly, yeah, and it's about the dynamics between people and maybe bouncing ideas of each other or challenging each other or kind of iterating an idea to get to a solution, and it's something that's really good for the business and you think, yeah, these are great people and they're doing their best work in this moment together. That's really special.
Speaker 1:No, I love that. So I guess, Amy, you're just kind of wrapping up here, Like when you think of all the things that you've accomplished and moving to Bermuda, leaving Bermuda, coming back as a CEO, like when you're no longer on the planet and you've accomplished your great thing to give back to the planet and you have your dogs. What do you want to be remembered for? When someone says, Amy, and you know they look at your life like, what would you want them to say about you?
Speaker 2:I think I'd like to be remembered for helping people, and maybe it's on an individual level, at least it has been so far. When I talk about, you know the feeling of sense of urgency to do something big for the world before I leave. Maybe that's helping people at scale, but if that never happens, I think I would at least like to be remembered for helping individuals who I've come across in my life over time who remember me for something I did for them, and this happens now and it's very warming when I get this feedback.
Speaker 2:An individual will reach out from years ago. It happened recently. I bumped into a guy in the BA lounge in London and it was a guy who was a trainee actually years ago really about 20 years ago and I had interviewed him for the graduate program. Anyway, he just said he sent me this message afterwards on LinkedIn saying I really appreciated that you gave me that chance. That's amazing and I think that is a really satisfying thing to have in my life and I come across individuals all the time who I think this is a great person. They deserve great things. I want to try and help them get it.
Speaker 1:That's good. I love that. Well, thank you so much for spending some time with us that 45, more than that now went by really quickly.
Speaker 2:It did Great conversation, it went really well.
Speaker 1:Well, guys, thank you so much for spending some time with us today and thank you again to Amy for sitting on the couch and telling us her amazing story Again. Big shout out to our sponsors for this season, brown Co, as well as 59 Front, as always. Make sure you subscribe to the channel, make sure you head over to the website to sign up to be a VIP listener, and if you want to learn any more about Amy, she can be found on LinkedIn. If you have any questions, make sure you head over there and check her out to find out more about her. Once again, thank you for watching Hustle Heart Podcast.
